SML (July 13): Fr. Barnabas Powell "Why I Became Orthodox"

[Music] hello everyone and live from Vienna Austria it's Saturday morning I'm sister Vassa and I'm glad to see all of you who have tuned in to this exciting show today we have a very delightful guest father Barnabas Powell father Barnabas Powell whom you might know from ancient faith radio or elsewhere online is a priest of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in the United States in Georgia he is the senior pastor or priest dominoes of saints Raphael Nicholas and Irene Greek Orthodox Church he is the founder of faith encouraged ministries and he's the host of faith encouraged live on ancient faith radio he also produces the Monday through Friday devotional called faith encouraged daily so check all of that out as we've provided the links here for you if you are interested mother Barnabas I should also mention has released a video project called a journey to fullness that helps parishes to introduce the faith the Orthodox faith to the average person he himself was born in Atlanta Georgia and raised in a small Pentecostal church he became a youth pastor in his church and went on to study theology and get a theology degree in 1988 from Tekoa Falls College in northeastern Georgia father Barnabas established a church in the Atlanta area before his conversion to orthodoxy and he was heavily involved with evangelical Christian media and later after he converted to Orthodox Christianity a journey he will tell us more about he did study theology at Hellenic College in Brookline Massachusetts father Barnabas has a lovely family putting up a lovely picture of them hezbi Tara Connie is his wife and he has two lovely daughters Alexandra who is 12 and Catherine who is 8 but before we go on to our very interesting interview I'd like to remind you my friends that here on YouTube we are now posting little by little the many videos of our divine liturgy course so check that out here on YouTube just search for it divine liturgy course and you will find the videos that are already up going through the entire Divine Liturgy in a way that I think is accessible but also not watered-down you will learn about in small bits the history and theology of all the parts of the Divine Liturgy beginning with blessed is the kingdom that's an entire video that has a whole history the initial doxology of the liturgy and you might be surprised if you've never attempted to study liturgy at home on how many life bringing and exciting facts and insights there are to glean from the wealth of that tradition so now without without further ado my friends let's get on with our conversation with father Barnabas Powell [Music] hello father Barnabas hello very well god bless lovely to see you I'm gonna pretend this is our first recording but millions that we did to a recording previously and we neglected actually to record and by I mean me so everything that goes wrong around here is usually squarely the responsibility of the assistants of course it should be exactly so I'm gonna get right back to the questions I've already asked you and I'm gonna prized by your replies but maybe you've rethought things so we'll see we'll see so father Barnabas tell us why did you become Orthodox you know you know I get that question a lot especially coming from the Pentecostal background from the avenge avenge a local Protestant world and especially that the the Pentecostal world of Protestantism they say how in the world did a Pentecostal preacher become a Greek Orthodox priest and I always tease them asking do they want the long answer the short answer the short answer is I learned to read no that's not this right that's not nice but but the real answer is sister Vassa fell in love I fell in love my background being a Pentecostal and I've got Greek girl it wasn't a green girl no I was or thoughts before I met my Greek girl I was fortunate though oh by the way but remind me to tell you the story about what my spiritual father said because I wasn't married when I when I became Orthodox and he told me said you're gonna get married I said okay he said but now you can't marry another convert really I said all right and he said I said but father I understand you know obedience is a big deal here so we're gonna do that but can you tell me why he said oh yes yes yes he said she will know in her bones what you just know with your head and you'll be able to explain to her why she does what she does then he headed to kick her sister Vassa that is that I had never forgotten he said these two worlds cannot survive apart oh that's already anticipating some of my other questions about that exactly but I mean I fell in love I fell in love with worship my whole life had been shaped by very very powerful you know emotional extemporaneous worship and in the Pentecostal world and Pentecostalism is in my opinion the West's hunger for Orthodoxy hunger for mystery hunger for intimacy we can be very clinical in our theology in the West and we can be very antiseptic in our theology and the West and clear and and clear and very strict boundaries and no this is soteriology and this is this is eschatology and this is mary ology and this is all of these other ologies and the human person is hungry for wholeness and when I when I found an orthodoxy was was this beauty of wholeness and this intimate worship that is also liturgical I explained it to my dad like this he was brokenhearted when I told him I was becoming Orthodox he said son why are you becoming Jewish I mean he didn't know I said I know no did Orthodox Christian and and and he said oh what's that I said yeah we need to do a better job in telling our story and especially here in the West we certainly need to do that we need to be proactive in telling our story rather than just simply reactive and hiding in our little ethnic ghettos but the reality is is that I told my dad I said dad I needed I had fire but I needed a fireplace for my fire I needed the father's to have the boundaries so that my fire was life-giving and not destructive as a Pentecostal man we just we just kind of had every women wind abducted everything that blew through me man we bought into it and ran with it and when it ran out of gas we jumped on another benefit and it was exhausting sister Vassa it really was it was exhausting to move with have all these constant movements and we had something I don't know if you've ever heard of this in the evangelical processor world especially in the United States we had something called the worship wars great and the worship wars where do we use the traditional hymns from the hymn book or do we use the praise band in the smoke machine and now we have churches I was riding by the other day and there's this big mega church near art near our house and it said that they have a a traditional worship service and then after that they have a contemporary worship service and then they have what is something called a blended worship service all right yeah and so it was constantly trying to try to stay relevant and trying to yeah it's very political actually that the whole liturgy question has become oh yeah it's happened on certain occasions I would say say in Russian Orthodox Church after the Revolution there was this renovation aesthetic talk about changes in the liturgy like updating the liturgical language is now associated with these renovations that actually unfortunately also collaborated with the atheists communist government and so that is not a good look well yeah it makes suspect any talk of any kind of nothing radical but just you know updating certain things so that sure entirely incomprehensible but anyway that's interesting that you mentioned you know worship how did you call it worship war wars in the evangelical protestant world and and by the way the Pentecostals won that war now even the most staunch you know non Pentecostal denomination and non Pentecostal groups have adopted practically all of the expressions of the Pentecostal and charismatic movement here in the West and it's so the Pentecostals one right I'm not really familiar with that in the Pentecostal scene so I have to spend more time with Pentecostals but good for you no no you're fine with them so let me ask you another related question as I already told my view in the introductory part of this video you received your first theology degree at an evangelical protestant school and when you later entered the Orthodox Church you went on to study Orthodox theology at Holy Cross Greek Orthodox school of theology in Brookline Massachusetts for those people at home who don't know Brookline Massachusetts is not only the birthplace of Conan O'Brien no it also is home to one of our most important seminaries now father Barnabas how would you say that the approach to theology at an Orthodox school you know of theology was different from or perhaps similar to I don't know the approach to it an evangelical protestant school yeah that's a great question because it goes it goes to the issue of formation and and for me one of the things that drew me to orthodoxy was I was extremely hungry for an authentic Christian formation I didn't want to just know about God I wanted to actually be in relationship and in communion and and in an intimate relationship with God and as I hungered for that it turned out that an intimate relationship with God includes an intimate relationship with his body his church and so in the evangelical protestant seminary very much like I was talking about before everything had its cubbyhole and everything and we had all of these different specialties and and so on and so forth and there was in my opinion something that was what was missing and what I didn't have any language what I didn't understand what I was what I was missing but there was there was such there was a lack of integration how does this all fit together I knew and what started is all for me my own journey was the church history class at the Protestant school and then the church history class focused mainly on the differences between the Roman Catholics and the proud I think the Orthodox got three or four lines mentioned and that was it you know you know those Easterners and proof just but but it's the Roman Catholics and the Protestants that's what we're gonna deal with so didn't know much about it but it piqued my interest because I didn't I've never heard of that before growing up in the world that I grew up in in the Evangelical Protestant world in the Pentecostal group we had never heard of Eastern Orthodoxy didn't even know it existed when me and my best friend started our reading process that brought us to confront orthodoxy I said you know Ron I keep coming across these Orthodox people they seem to be wonderful have you ever seen one before it was like going to the zoo errs of it have you ever have you ever seen one in captivity he said no no I said what do you think they made it maybe they didn't make it maybe they didn't survive we didn't know we'd never been exposed to it before so in the evangelical protestant seminary was very much this wrote and and and like i said before clinical and and antiseptic understanding of theology the differences between Arminianism and Calvinism the differences between the Roman Catholics understanding of salvation and the Evangelical Protestant understanding of salvation in the prot and the orthodox seminary everything was integrated around worship because we Orthodox that's how we make Christians we make Christians liturgical II that's how we make them that's how we formed them everything we believed we shows up in our prayers you want to know what a north go ahead why worship let me just ask you don't mean the study of the history of liturgy you me know going to church doing it daily services exactly I find it interesting what you note but it was perhaps ironically the exposure to church history that got you on to the the track of the Orthodox Church see I find it ironic why because one might observe that we have somewhat of an a historical approach to our addition in the sense that a lot of our people have this concept of it that our tradition is unchangeable that it's it never changed but you know even on a simple look at it say at the Divine Liturgy for anybody who thinks about it for more than one minute might notice that the mystical supper doesn't look a lot like what is the little entrance what's the great entrance what are these mats and even the epiclesis look you know the the calling down of the Holy Spirit doesn't happen at the mystical supper and how does this develop through history right mm-hmm I find it interesting that Protestants now I'm just gonna paint everybody with this stereo brush yes of the Protestants I'm sure people will find that not very amusing but anyway in some you know say okay again I I will continue to generalize one can be a historical in a different way in that one gets the sense that we're doing what they did in the ancient church they don't limit if Church did it this way and at some points we returned to doing that and basically everything that happened in between you know the 21st century and the first century is really just some kind of descent into you know or further away from what we're supposed to be doing yeah that's actually really important that's actually really important from my own journey because that's that's exactly what we're very a historical in the sense that most most of the most of the Christian denominations that exist now started in some form or another in the United States and in the early United States with the first and second Great Awakenings and all of those things that really kind of birth all of these different groups every one of them have so restoration is kind of drive we're going to get back to the power of Pentecost we're gonna get back to the with the purity of the church we're going to get back to when it was really right instead of all of these different things that know how we've descended into not being really good anymore and all this kind of stuff and that restorationist mentality is really critically important to understand if you're going to understand especially American Protestantism because that's that's that's the mother of most of these denominations forty thousand different Christian denominations in the United States and interestingly enough on average and new denominations is starting in this country on average every two weeks so it's it's in that bizarre you can tax deductible status if you can help yourself registered as a country I mean exactly it's entrepreneurism thank God American capitalism at its best even finding its way into the faith but for me that that gap because I knew a lot about the Pentecostal movement in in the in in the book of Acts I knew a lot about the scriptures I knew a lot about the the church in the book of Acts I knew the Protestant Reformation in 1517 I knew a great deal about the binnacle meetings of the Pentecostal movement in 1901 and 1902 and Azusa Street in Topeka Kansas and all these other things but there was a 15th century gap in my information about the how the Holy Spirit lived in his people for 15 centuries and you know what you may be the best pet person in the whole wide world but with that kind of information gap chances are you're gonna miss something important so I wanted to find out where that was what was going on there it was extremely important for me to have an ontological connection with the people of God throughout the centuries because I had to believe I was taught by my Protestant world that the Holy Scriptures were infallible and when Jesus said on this rock I'll build my church and the gates of Hell will never prevail against it I had to believe true so I couldn't believe that the Holy Spirit kind of dropped the ball and hello and everything went into chaos and then finally Martin Luther saved the day I had to come to grips with the fact that if that's true and the Holy Spirit's been given in the earth what did that look like how did they pray how did they worship and what I discovered was is how they prayed and how they worshiped and how they talked about God and how they talked about the Holy Trinity and how they talked about the Eucharist and how they talked about the Theotokos was more beautiful their error was more beautiful than my rightness and so I had to I had to come to grips with that and frankly it was it was overwhelming one one convert expressed it to me this way he said the crushing weight of the witness of the Saints overwhelmed my objections and that good yes oh that's beautiful father would you say that the actual study of Scripture was deficient in an orthodox seminary I don't think it was this is one of the weaknesses that I found that especially in the work that aux here in the United States they think they don't know much about the Bible and so consequently that makes them extremely reticent to say anything because they're afraid they're going to be asked a question and they'll be embarrassed and the reality is it is not something that has been emphasized most the people who came to this country as Orthodox immigrants came here running for their lives for the most part and they gathered together in some kind of safe place so they could have a little taste of home and that was their reality but one of the things that um that was was lost in that is the normal Orthodox understanding of the importance of the Holy Scriptures in the life of the everyday believer now that's you can't emphasize that enough st. John Chrysostom said it best you can't be a Christian and not know the Holy Scriptures that's that's normal orthodoxy and one of the things that I've been trying to do in my media work in the media ministry that I do is to try to reset people's normal away from that which is too small and only presents a kind of a facade of Orthodoxy but an actual daily Monday through Sunday practice of the thing and that includes knowing the Holy Scriptures it's it's just not an option it's not an option so you encourage people to actually crack open a book maybe or delve into meaning of the services right that we have we do have a wealth also of you know that the the liturgy itself and by liturgy I mean the various services that we have does offer us many examples of traditional exegesis or interpretation of scriptures how how is why Marian feasts or Feast of the Theotokos do we have say readings like about Jacob's Ladder about the burning bush and how are these Old Testament revelations relevant to the Theotokos but this is I think goes way over our heads everybody said yeah and it's a loss too because what it does this is all foundational formation all of this understanding the burning bush being an icon of the Theotokos the the gate that was opened and then shut and never to be opened again all of that language all of that liturgical prayer that is preserved in the faith there and forgive me if I run a rabbit trail here but there's a great book in those published in United States by a guy by the name of Simon signed it called start with why and he said people don't buy what you do they buy why you do it and if you don't know why you do something you're gonna lose what you're doing and and I really think that that's that's really true it's a it's like an old black preacher one time told me he said brother Powell God ain't got no grandchildren God ain't got no grandchildren he's you guys he's got he's got son and so it's every generations responsibility to embrace this faith and in enculturated into themselves and make it their own through the proactive practice of the faith in the Oskie cease of the spiritual life that's the only reason to be Orthodox because this is too hard and too consuming to just simply be about some kind of Road habit that you're doing it's just it's too much so if we're really going to kind of enter into this then it's going to be about being a normal Orthodox Christian and that means the liturgical life of the church is meant to shape us inform us and interestingly enough the divine liturgy itself is over seventy percent either a direct or indirect quote from the Holy Scriptures so there you've got that if you want a bible-believing Church hey man if I've got a place for you if this is it's the Orthodox faith but our own Orthodox faithful need to know that so that they will they won't be reticent and they won't feel like oh goodness these people know the Bible better than I do and well that certainly may be true to a certain extent I think our Orthodox people if they spend some time being proactive in their faith and not just simply pushing the automatic pilot button if they're proactive in their faith they're going to discover they know a great deal about the scripture and more importantly they know how to understand the holy scriptures from the liturgical life of the church hope that helps does that make sense I found in my own life that some things you know in our very disorienting globalized world where we don't automatically we're not automatically belonging anymore to any tradition we have to actually want it because we're not staying in the same village with the Sun why we're not even exposed because of the internet even if we weren't we're to stay in the same village which happens very rarely now right my generation but the next one's for sure you know with the globalized economy and people getting uprooted all the time anyway what I wanted to say is that we have to really it not only want it but really need it discovering I think many of us discover that we actually don't find enough nourishment without having the Word of God in our lives and yeah it's like a it becomes for many people because of addictions that are just so prevalent and various obsessions you know I don't know I you know I can't really wrap my my brain around why that's so so much a path for people back to God these days you know that it's it's a it becomes a life-and-death question of yeah because the fear you know in a in a culture of self-reliance and where God seems to be not needed there there is created a vacuum and there's a default sense of fear yeah I disconnect and disconnect as well I was reading a tremendous article on the roots of addiction and for me I would even have described myself in my previous world and even frankly in my early days of orthodoxy as a religious habit but addiction and its heart is comes from disconnection a lack of community a lack of a lack of interconnection and because we're creating now in the image of God and God knows himself as persons in communion that's all the way I'm going to know myself as a person in communion I can only know myself in the face of the other and so because that reality is so we humans are going to spin our wheels constantly looking for something that we desperately need if we don't come to grips with the fact that I need community there's a there's a great there's a great song in the 1970s in the United States it's sung by God the name of Tom T Hall and I won't sing because I know that you get in trouble when you sing and and I get in trouble when I sing on my radio show like saying sing now I have a great voice that's what I keep telling people I have a wonderful you can beg and you can cry father you sing for us you go ahead it's it's it's a really great song it's called me and Jesus got our own thing goes with me and Jesus got our own thing going me and Jesus we got it all worked out the end Jesus got our own thing going we don't need anybody to tell us what it's all about I let it the root of that in that the root of that is the absolutely undoing of what it means to be a person me and Jesus can't have our own thing going I can't have just relationship with the head of the church I gotta have a relationship with the whole body and that interconnectedness heals my addictions and gives me a proper auskey cease to tame the passions rather than extinguish them that's what I think most people hear when they talk about when they when Christians talk about discipline they think oh we're going to extinguish the pensions that's that could nothing could be further from the truth the passions are good they need to be tamed they need to be they need to be servants and not masters and it's the Orthodox way of life in my opinion that's the reason why I became Orthodox it's the Orthodox Froning mother mindset the Orthodox liturgical life that gives me the tools on a daily basis to teach me how to tame the passions in community that's a big deal because if people get if they begin to understand why this is worth it because it's hard to be Orthodox especially here in the West if they begin understand why it's worth it then they'll invest the time and the effort into doing it as best they can and passing it on to their kids right right I I think people shy away a little bit or get turned off by by negative expressions or or expressions and terms that have certain baggage from having been abused and misused they're so long in popular culture and elsewhere like even the term taming the passions makes people feel like they want to they want to tie me down you know no but you know it's actually about being liberated free bondage because anyone who's been through active addiction to the extent of I don't know reaching rock-bottom are close to it you know the the absolute loss of freedom the absolute closing in of the world becomes so small it's just about the next fix that's it that kind of terrifying bondage and to self you know because there's sort of no where else to go what we're talking about as you said also disconnect but what's the thing in mystical terms see because the other term I want to say that really scares people on a on the level of popular culture is organized religion oh really when do when we don't talk about church in terms of its mystical points like the whole purpose like of every sacrament has there's some purpose right like of holy matrimony it's unity it's it's you get the spark of it but you have to work on it and it's a lifelong process of forging that unity in the holy spirit but anyway the church why it's constantly it described in marital terms you know the church the Bride of Christ it's like the sacrament of marriage or a mystery of marriage in that its purpose also is you and here the Church of all the things that Christ established and sort of recreated or created anew for us in his coming is a place to where we can work on and be unified so the church is doing this its forging unity it the Holy Spirit he's the one at work it's like his primary work and when people you know people do recognize I don't have a sense of belonging anymore I sort of I'm this this this this speck dust in the wind good for you I couldn't I promise not to sing before this interior all right now you know what I'm addicted to I its breaking into song so you know the fact that it's an invitation forget about thinking of it in terms of organized religion there's something a lot deeper here that we are all in our hearts we don't belong anymore where the internet is making everybody is mixing us up to the point where we really have an identity crisis right certain sure like church but you know really contemplating it like not turning it into and a national club of some sort what club with which to hit other I'm in the right church and they will forget one of a one of our my spiritual guides going into the Orthodox faith he said he said brother Powell if you if you're looking for the right Church you're going to be sadly disappointed by the Orthodox because it's filled with people and people are notorious for messing things up so I said if you're looking for something that's correct or right you're gonna miss the point what you're looking for is fullness you're looking for wholeness health healthy well rounded complete mature grown up and that's what you're looking for because that's what I need I need to become a person in the image and creating the image of God to be made into his likeness and the eye and essa' reason why iconography is so very important because it focuses me I get to look at the face of Jesus Christ not it as a portrait not as a snapshot or a Polaroid but as a theological work in color and line that insist that I deal with God becoming flesh and what does that look like Saint Ignatius said it best one of the things that really got me and my best friend there was also a Pentecostal pastor by the way what really hooked us is when we started reading the Church Fathers and when we read that God became in flesh so that man might be coming got it once I could begin to grasp that cosmic reason for this and the cosmic healing that God is trying to do one of the reasons why sister Vassa started the whole faith encouraged ministries thing to help our lifelong Orthodox and our convert Orthodox we're all converts but there are newly or newly Orthodox folks appreciate just what's underneath all of this work what's underneath all this beauty what's underneath all of this theological depth and and really cosmic stuff and what's underneath it is I'm invited to become by grace what Christ is by nature and it is it's it's not magic and the world that I came from it was magic you said the sinner's prayer and poof you were saying and that I came to the end of that and and in while it's wonderful to have that experience of getting to know Christ that's great but then I had to deal with the fact that this was a lifelong journey and how do you take that lifelong journey well fortunately you don't have to make it up we've got centuries of consistent practice of the Holy Spirit in his church so that I'll have to recreate the wheel every generation right and by doing that I get an actual ontological connection with brothers and sisters who have gone before me and I get to really live out the theological truth of the Orthodox that Jesus Christ has her death key if Jesus Christ has conquered death then all of those who are in Christ are still in my church I'm still connected with them they're still connected with me and that's a tremendous sense of belonging and purpose and and frankly sister Vassa it saved my life right so thanks for that father Barnabas yes I I think that I'm a connection to the historical reality of the church throughout the centuries warrants and all is very sobering through one's own history the fact that we we also don't talk about one doesn't hear like as if it's a fait accompli that we are saved by waged you know I was a Billy Graham that used to say I know I'm going to heaven are you or something like that my father but I didn't know who actually said um you know that we're works in progress just like throughout the centuries the church has you know issues and things to discern and it's an ongoing adventure doesn't mean there isn't the fullness but if we think that we are the fullness says this guy here guy I don't self-identify as a guy just people who are wondering oh no no I want to say that if I think I'm the fullness I'm just full of it you know that was that's really important now and now listen I come from the the United States model of American religion an American religion is inherently individualistic and and hence the reason why in my opinion Americans are hungry for orthodoxy especially Pentecostals they're hungry for orthodoxy they don't know it yet but I'm doing the best I can I just got here a little while ago so I mean give me a time give me some time but I know what I'm trying to get going here but the reality is because it's so very individualistic and the me and Jesus got our own thing going stuff that that hurdle has to be overcome and so people they feel this natural angst and they don't understand why the vast majority of American Christians will change denominations at least two times in their lifetime that's normal here in the United States consequently it is something and if the reason why is is because if not only is there consumer mentality here but also this there's this there's this intelligible hunger for what am I looking for I don't know what I'm looking for but I know this isn't working and so for me one of the reasons why I even want to do I did a video series called journey to fullness to help people get introduced to the Orthodox faith and it's become something it's being used by over 200 parishes here in the United States to introduce people to orthodoxy and one of the things that I keep hearing is even our lifelong Orthodox that are taking the class they're saying this gives me a language to talk to my American friends about why orthodoxy kind of scratches the itch that your head and and and that that hunger to overcome this very I'm gonna call that poverty stricken because I really mean that this poverty-stricken individualistic notion that that you know it's about me just gathering enough facts about God and then making right decisions about God instead of being in community with the people of God together all of us holding the mind of Christ together and then doing the work of gratitude in the hottest old of the Eucharist doing that work of gratitude on a regular basis in the mystery of the Divine Liturgy and all the other liturgical life for the church it fosters this sense of gratitude it fosters this sense of community and that sister Vassa became the best way for me to think what does it mean to be saved what does it mean to have to have salvation in my life and that is it integrating integrating my own self instead of being this mess of confusion and chaos I can integrate my own self I can know myself in the face of Jesus Christ but then I'm also integrated in the community the wider body of Christ and then ultimately invited to live in the mystery of a connection with the life of the Holy Trinity and / God yes and yet it is a fact that the church also discovered not immediately that as it turns out people sin after baptism as well and they shocked amazed they would delay delay as you well know baptism tournaments as Constantine the Great or Constantine and then he got better God blesses our diet for that's one of those things thanks God yet so people need to know that even in the so-called institution of certain sacraments we see a gradual work of God throughout salvation history you know her baptism of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Jordan okay it has something to do with our baptism because he's doing something to all of water but that's not yet the baptism it's not our baptism it's right the baptism of his death and burial and rising again right so even talking about the mystical supper we certainly look upon it as the institution of the Eucharist but the Apostles couldn't yet celebrate when they had not yet received the abundance of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost right so what are those eschatological words connected to the institution narrative about Christ saying I will not you know eat until they eat anew with you in the kingdom yeah well um yes and in in Luke 22 he says that before he distributes to them the cup and the bread so it's like did he eat and is this that he's looking forward to what is he talking about eating with them in the kingdom does that mean correction the 40 days as it says in acts 1 in the truth about he did eat with them was that the Institute anyway there's interesting theories about this because you know the Eucharist was never celebrated on Thursdays only right it was always a Sunday thing always said that well when they really began you know celebrating the Eucharist well was it on Pentecost as far as the Apostles doing it and was it on the eighth day when he appeared when Thomas was with them but he was the presider so anyway it's an it the reason I bring it up is that this gradualness it's also important for us not to lose faith for example in baptism because people get this you know I think they call it the is it the sophomore slump or something after that exactly yeah wait a minute I'm back to the loser that I was or whatever I'm getting into bad habits and I guess baptism didn't work for me alright Communion and then I sin again oh my god is it not working but it's this constant renewal and then you know we mess up we get up and that the constant work in progress and that that it's expressed also to us in church history they're important so that people can see when when you mentioned the church hopping that people do they they change searches in orthodoxy they'll change jurisdictions or they've been disappointed in this or you know somebody looked at them wrong or sat in their seat and you know these things happen all the time and they had a crush on someone in the choir and then something happens and they broke up and anyway you know you hear a lot of this stuff and I feel like the same thing goes on in marriages where people don't serve because they sort of have this consumer mentality and I know I'm brushing this with some broad stroke and I'm not trying to trivialize very real you know crises and probably painful things sure yeah but there's really something to be said I think that needs more to be said about stick things out man because faithful I never will forget I had a group of people who were who went through the class to be to become catechumens because in our community we we require them to go through the class before they can become catechumens and then the catechumenate consists of a year's worth of the liturgical cycle of the church where they're expected to attend and meet with me and so on and so forth because its formation and this this dear lady asked me she said well father how long would it be before I can I can you take the Eucharist I have no idea I don't know I can't wait to find out I hope you stick around because you've never existed before this is gonna be cool I can't wait to figure out what it good is what it's going to look like in your life and and she's a little puzzled I said because you do see here the church doesn't call you the successful or the the perfect the church calls the people the faithful he that endures to the end shall be saved and it is in that faithfulness and it's in what I use a lot this phrase a lot in in my own media stuff when I talk about encourage people to be Orthodox on purpose and on a daily basis practice of faith I'm gonna choose today to be Orthodox on purpose I'm gonna proactively embrace this faith with with rhythm of Prayer and daily prayer and prayer in my own heart and using the Jesus Prayer and my own icon corner and all of these other things because I think many times we can make the mistake of making this so so intellectualized or or ivory tower eyes that we do say people up for crashing and burning well way to say they must not work for me because you know that it apparently it didn't take I'm still struggling to this stuff but the daily pastoral orthodoxy that is centered on the the kuruma that the preaching of the good news and it is good news and giving people hope in the midst of all that I love what one father said just try a little bit today see try a little bit more today just a little bit just try a little bit more today what a what a joyous and this is the thing that I guess I love about the faith and one of the things that struck me is the joy the joy of being Orthodox father Alexander Schmemann a blessed memory said that the greatest charge that you can make against an Orthodox Christian is he has no joy and orthodoxy is inherently joyful because it's always hopeful always and with that constant hope we can live a purposeful Orthodox life and when we stumble we're sober about it we don't we don't we don't we don't buy into the the false notion of elation or despondency as both of those places take me to delusion they're not real it I'm always going to have in my life good things and bad things and all the in-between things happening all the time I'm glad you mentioned that because people sometimes get a little bit you know they're like deer in headlights when you're like if you're constantly shutting down their throats that they should be rejoicing and they've got a lot going on you know like and sometimes in the sermon it's just rejoice because it's crazy no all right it's Christmas rejoice but you know I noticed that someone's missing at the table cuz I lost someone at the you know like it can be a painful time for people ya know I think there is a gentle kind of realism to of course not just orthodoxy but you know living in Christ however one is given to do that at the present moment it's a little bit how do I say this reductionist to say about this or it's about that and you know anyway who's a talented creature they tend to say oh it's about three things or it's about one and then some looking at their list and they're like I'm you know I can't check that one off so I guess I'm not it you know like my own preaching professor uh professor John tell Murphy in the protestant seminary he was asked one time he said he called this preacher boys and one of the young men raised their hand said professor Murphree how many points should a sermon have and professor Murphy was this wonderful Virginia had this perfect high class southern accent that just absolutely dripped with honey and and butter and that old preacher boys every sermon should have at least one point that's really true with wit gets reductionist in the sense that that we think okay well here's the here's the prescription now and go and sin no more when in reality it's the sobriety part of it right and this is one of the things that drew me as a Pentecostal to orthodoxy because Pentecostalism is anything but sober but it's a sober joy and this is this is the paradox that I think is so important for us to communicate his Orthodox Christians is that it is a it is joyful but we're not talking giddy and we're not talking about you know kind of walking around saying you know I'm not hearing it's not hot if I'm in hell it's we're not talking about delusion we're talking about dealing with reality but a reality in light of the resurrection of Jesus Christ right and that sobriety means that no matter what life throws at me good things and bad things and in between things there's a soberness there's a peacefulness yes there's a sober and joy that says glory to God for all things right many generations you know the tradition of reading the lives of the saints really knowing them having every day of the church calendar full of very different stories right yes and sort of getting to also through self-examination and the you know that the care that the church takes to have people have a place to come to confession to unburden and in the process of getting to know the self in light of other others who have gone on this journey still two that are going but are more experienced and so forth it's sort of sobering in the sense of look it's all happened before your ups and your downs it's okay you know just get up suit up and show up again and you're okay in God's hands like that kind of and and it is joyous you know how people say how they feel after confession you know very light light yeah they're very light they float out I've heard people tell me that after confession that I just father I came in here all burdened and heavy and I feel like after confession I can just kind of conflate out of the church that's it let me ask you one last question father because okay I had this question prepared and I haven't gotten to it that um if I can once again speak in stereotypical terms of us Orthodox as compared to evangelical Christians we are not exactly known for our missionary zeal by and large you won't I don't know how many Orthodox parishioners you see going knocking on doors or I don't know Mars I know it's not our style maybe somebody will immediately write to me and say we're always knocking on doors and I don't know selling Orthodox cookies or something tell them to stop it I just want to know the ingredients of those cookies exactly exactly that's what but evangelicals do seem to be known for that and it appears to me that your own impressive missionary outreach in spreading the Orthodox faith online seems informed by the wealth of your missionary experience most notably previously in evangelical Christian media and you bring that with you now as an Orthodox priest you know into the Orthodox Church from your Protestant background so first of all would you agree with that assessment of mine that I've now it's gonna poke in for you as for describing that and would you mention you know some other positive things from your Protestant upbringing for which you continue to be grateful and that inform and inspire your pastoral ministry in the Orthodox Church very good question I think for me evangelicalism and being an evangelist we pray for evangelists and preachers every divine liturgy after the epiclesis when we call down the Holy Spirit we pray for it for pastors and teachers and evangelists and all kinds of folks in the divine liturgy so that's normal Orthodox if orthodoxy isn't known for its missionary zeal now it is because it isn't living out the centuries when it is quite clear that normal orthodoxy reaches out normal orthodoxy reproduces that's normal a healthy body reproduces that's we are called to make disciples not converts by the way did you notice that it says make disciples not converts that's a big deal and so we're called to make disciples babies that'll work too by the way but don't worry amen I have I have daughters myself which I'm praying to God they married good Orthodox boys and go go forth and multiply but the grandchildren are better than kids by the way I'll just add them first if I don't know how wonderful they were but but the reality is is that that's normal it's normal for a church to grow it's normal for a parish to grow that's normal now when I say grow I'm not just talking about numbers I'm talking about spiritually growing becoming more mature the faith more sober more more life getting the old preacher one time told me he said son the light that shines furthest away is the one that shines the brightest at home and so it's the motivation of evangelism that is different in from my previous Protestant world to my earth my Orthodox world I see motivations the motivation is different before in my Evangelical Protestant world it was about obeying God and doing good things so God will be happy with me and in the Orthodox world it's about actually living out what I sing in the Divine Liturgy we have seen the light the true light we have received the heavenly spirit we have found the true faith worshiping the undivided Trinity who has saved us to withhold that kind of spiritual food from people who are spiritually starving all around you makes a non evangelizing Orthodox Christian a very evil person to withhold that from our neighbors and from our friends and however God calls us to show it even I love what an old saying is I'm not quite sure it actually st. Francis said it but it sounds good wherever you go preach the gospel and if you must use words and so and as wonderful as that is there really is this sense that as I'm going as I'm living this life as I'm becoming more free that's going to naturally draw just like a moth to the flame people are going to say hey what's the deal here and then I get to share my faith with them but for me the that evangelical Drive tremendous gift from my Protestant background another tremendous gift was a deep love for the Holy Scriptures one of the reasons I started the daily devotional thing the faith encouraged daily writing and and and the podcast dealing with I mean the church gives us daily scripture readings for heaven say hey so I take that in five minutes we do and we do a little talk on the the daily scripture reading because it should be normal that as I'm going I'm living out purposely this Orthodox Christian life one of the natural results not something that you've never seen an apple tree sitting there in the in the orchard saying straining to push out apples out of its branches come on it naturally happens and the natural result of someone being baptized and following Christ is reproducing right that's a helpful metaphor about the tree yeah it really is good another thing too that I love about my Evangelical Protestant background is it gives me a language to talk to my American friends about this Orthodox faith in a missionary way we have to translate it in this culture forget to translate these deep and beautiful concepts into what my tribe can understand and so that work is extremely valuable in the way that the evangelical Protestants have done missionary work throughout the world the Pentecostal movements the fastest-growing expression of Christianity on the planet today bar none and so consequently if we learn how to translate this beauty this timeless faith I'm not talking about an old faith some stuff that's old is worthless I've seen some stuff that's old it's just it's just not worth anything at all so I don't I don't want old I want timeless that's the key and translating that into this very culture but not divorced from history no no married to it do you like to talk excuse me about the ancient faith and yes people maybe not just young people say quote you know the thing is when you sometimes people say oh are you trying to be a modern day nun would belong to an ancient faith I literally have literally said he said well should I make I couldn't do it if I wanted to a nun from the past and then the here's the big question well which past do you want me to belong to do you want there yes Dan Ian's 6th century Byzantium do you want to choose say the 14th century of late Byzantium of mas or should I be in first century Jerusalem maybe did they have nuns then so anyway boy it's you know we do recognize as church and actually the most the tradition that's most that's alive is the one of today because right now we'll start getting creative and liturgy because they read one book you know when a priest reads a book he sometimes starts changing things in his liturgy and do in my Divine Liturgy course have I mentioned that I have a Divine Liturgy course it's very good by the way thank you subtle plug Thank You Father we discussed this and you forgot to say it I rebuild I'll send the twenty bucks back no I want it I try to stress in the forest look I can show you that this has changed throughout the centuries but sure so how is the right way to do it the answer is the way you were taught to do it in your particular stupid little parish that does things wrong because it's more important to it's a together thing that search it's not more important that I read a book and now I'm gonna individually I mean it's one thing if our whole the hierarch of our local church says we're all gonna do this now this way because I read a book then we could all change it together that's fine you know and I think some people might find that approach disturbing but I find that everything else really leads to you know because there's the issue of which past where the right way to do it when it's been changing so unless it's clearly you know some heretical understanding has entered that's a different story but that's rarely the case you know it's usually the church has been clear about that the church has talked about that that's what she's gotten together on several occasions and she's talked about those things but isn't it interesting sister Vassa how reluctant the church has been throughout the centuries to put a pin down in the ground and say okay this is it she's all in this one of the things I fell in love about orthodoxy there what the church has said listen we're going to focus on the life of Christ Jesus Christ at the center everything that happened before Christ happened to bring us to Christ everything that happened after Christ happened because of Christ it's Jesus Christ that's the center and but that the trip but the church takes seriously the wonderful paradox and the hard work of being in communion together and the Holy Spirit super intending that gloriously messy that's right when you said something about organized religion I almost almost said no no no I'm not part of an organized religion I'm Greek Orthodox so I make that joke almost with every person that I think it's so effective father I'm sorry because we're gonna have to cut this off and it's lovely to talk to you again and I thank you successfully recorded this really thank you so much for your time and before we go I'll mention that apparently everybody I haven't told you about this but if you know God willing it works out we might be organizing with the help of one of the zillions deacon tim kennedy organizing a pilgrimage to jerusalem with father barnabas as well so we'll see if it works out it's only in the works for 2020 if it does work out God willing we'll announce it and hopefully it'll work out for the time of the Feast of the Dormition in August so just I want to throw that out there in case somebody thinking of making a pilgrimage to the Holy Land I will be the tour guide but uh you know if you're not too if you don't find that a scary notion father Barnabas hopefully will also be there anyway so we're excited that that might be working out I'm thanking cut ladina for helping out today and we're gonna sign off father Barnabas again lovely to chat with you like this and I'm saying goodbye to the zillions and I will see you next week same time same place bye everyone you [Music]

Channel: Coffee with Sr. Vassa

Views: 8,061

Rating: 4.9450173 out of 5

Keywords: becoming orthodox, fr. barnabas powell, sister vassa, saturday morning live, sml, converting to orthodoxy, protestantism and orthodoxy

Id: i1TEHvWosO0

Length: 65min 42sec (3942 seconds)

Published: Sat Jul 13 2019