Being Orthodox on Purpose with Fr. Barnabas Powell

[Music] [Applause] and welcome to another edition of the Hank unplug podcast dedicated to bringing the most inspirational influential and inspiring people on the planet directly to you and have you been listening to the Hank unplugged podcast for any period of time you know that I have been true to that commitment and we have been receiving five-star ratings on iTunes and as a result of that more and more people across the globe are listening to Hank unplugged and I thank everyone that is doing just that taking the action step of going to iTunes and giving us a 5-star rating sharing the podcast with others this is a way in which you can have a hand in equipping people all around the world and we have had so many great reviews one of them by Todd Dexter Hanks teaching his books have significantly shaped my journey with Christ his Hank unplugged podcasts are some of the best out there and I recommend them to everyone I meet he is fair and honest about the Scriptures and he is a man who loves Christ Phil Bauman says Hank and his guests really make me think and want to study the word further love the callin questions on the regular show the Bible answer man broadcast just as much today I have a very very special guest on the Hank unplugged podcast we spent some time together in Crete recently at the International Conference on digital media and Orthodox pastoral care this is a man who is very very significant in orthodoxy his name his father Barnabas Powell he's an author he's a pastor he's a podcaster he's a teacher and he's committed to offering a credible witness to the timeless Orthodox faith for this culture he has a live show called faith encouraged live it's one of the most popular shows on ancient faith radio is author of being Orthodox on purpose as well as rejecting rapture mania father Powell it is great to have you on the Hank unplug podcast dear brother it is a joy to join you here it's it's I've missed you since Crete you know just hearing your voice you don't sound very Orthodox you sound more like a a Pentecostal well funny that you should say that friend that's that's my tribe them's my people so that's your background yeah yeah I was raised in a Pentecostal church and was actually a pastor in what we called a charismatic church with evangelical distinctives years ago when I after I finished my first stint in theology school I attended an Evangelical Protestant school to get my undergraduate degree and founded a church in Woodstock Georgia called Church of the firstborn and worked in Christian media for many years and so that's that's a very fray for me your place for me is that something that is both precious and beloved in my past it is quite a change when you go from being a Pentecostal pastor to a father who was a priest at Saints Raphael Nicholas and Irene Greek Orthodox Church in Georgia I mean that's an incredible transition well you know and I think it really is but you know at the same time I am really more and more the longer I am an Orthodox Christian and the longer I serve in clergy the more I really find that my Pentecostal background really prepared me for this journey in a very very powerful and unique way and it was a long time coming for me to really appreciate that and really understand that and really embrace that but it makes me so very very grateful for my heritage in my past like I told my dad I said dad don't be upset when the seed that you planted bloomed this is exactly what it's supposed to have happen well thanks be to God for that a lot of people when I introduce you or address you as father Barnabas find that very insanely we're not supposed to call someone father the Bible says that and here I'm calling you father Barnabas you know it's funny going from that world where that is really the narrative that I was raised with I certainly was raised with it and certainly believed it and practiced it thought it was wrong and yet I called my own dad father on many occasions I think many times what people mistake is they mistake doing the hard work of really digging down deep into what our Lord Jesus was warning us about in that passage instead of just understanding that the church understands herself as a family and in that family there are father's among us and the truth is Hank the Orthodox faith is really clear we really only have one father and all other fatherhood flows from that identity of God the Father there's really only one father and that is God the Father and so all every other bit of fatherhood either reflects that Fatherhood of God or it doesn't reflect that Fatherhood of God and that's exactly what Jesus was warning us about don't lie when you say these things make sure the person is reflecting the true God the Father and that makes all the difference in the world and when you understand the church as family we call each other brothers and sisters when you understand the church is family instead of corporation or nonprofit organization when you understand the church is family then it makes perfect sense that there are going to be leaders among us who really father us in the faith in fact I'm convinced Hank well in fact one of the reasons why I was so drawn to orthodoxy in the first place was I was desperately hungry for that relationship of a spiritual son and a spiritual father that can make the face it reminds me of the story makes the faith with skin on it stead of just merely ideas it makes all the difference in the world so I understand people being very very concerned about this and thank God they are but there's a reason for it and there's a reason why it was normal for most Christians for 20 centuries and even up to this day to call their clergy Father and of course the same passage says don't call anybody teacher from Mexico would call me after yes or Master so what I wanted to ask you about is I mean you've talked about the church and graduating as it were to the Orthodox Church in the context of being Orthodox on purpose what does it mean from your perspective to be Orthodox on purpose now that's you know I remember when I was really wrestling several years ago how am I going to talk about this and my best friend and I rod Loudermilk and I we journeyed to orthodoxy together took us almost about 10 years and he and I both were Pentecostal pastors and we both entered the Orthodox Church together along with 20 families from the church I was pastoring at the time the Pentecostal church I was pastoring at the time we all entered the church and the orthodox church together and what really struck me is that what i was looking for in my christian life was not just a set of precepts or ideas as important as those are ideas have a way of becoming actions they usually do at least they're supposed to I needed a lifestyle Hank this was this was what I was hungry for more than anything in the world I needed a lifestyle I was doing everything that my tribe told me I should do I had all the religious experiences I spoke in tongues I did had the exuberant worship and all of that stuff was was all there and yet I was really struggling with I need a lifestyle I need something that affects my calendar I need something that makes me think of Jesus 24/7 and I was really hungry for that and so as I was hungry for that as my best friend rod and I were talking about our own spiritual journeys we were really looking what do we do and we started studying church history together and reading some books together and I never forget one book that we read was father Alexander Simmons for the life of the world and rod would call me up and said did you just read that I said yes I know he said I had to stare at the wall for an hour just to try to figure out what was going on but what what we were being taught what we were being exposed to was a normal Christianity for centuries before our groups had ever even gotten started a normal Christian see a normal Christian life that affected the seasons of the year it affected how I ate it affected how I prayed when I prayed and even taking seriously the command to pray without ceasing how do you do that and this Orthodox way was really influential on us and began to touch a really deep need in my own life for the consistent Christian discipleship that well Hank it made me think of Jesus all the time and really strive to take on the character of Christ you know what's interesting and almost counterintuitive is that listening to you speak is that you are a perv essent about the fact that you have found a place where you can experience Christ where you can be involved in the spiritual disciplines and it's counterintuitive because many people think you had that exuberance when you were in Pentecostalism and now you're involved in this dead orthodoxy you're involved with a liturgy that's boring goes on and on and on how can you be exuberant about a liturgy when you just came out of one of the greatest contexts for experience there is in the Christian world hey brother I get it but like I told my dad he was brokenhearted when when I told him that I was becoming Orthodox the first thing he the first thing he asked me he said son why would you become Jewish so no no no dad that Orthodox Christian but that's not a lot of what the first thing people think about and I don't really blame them it's not like we were that ox in the United States if been beating the drum and saying hey have you considered that's something that's the work that we're trying to really overcome and really get into but I told Dad I said dad I needed a fireplace for my fire I had fire but I had no fireplace so I kept burning in my hut down I needed a fireplace for my fire and who knew but it was that very powerful and consistent and practiced faith this continuity of faith and you it didn't happen in a corner you can read books and you can look at stuff and find out this is normal Christianity for centuries I needed that normal Christianity to temper the fire of my exuberance so that it became useful and helped and helpful and not dangerous and not wildfire so for me the exuberance comes from understanding the paradox of the Christian faith where Jesus is if you want to be free you got to be a slave if you want to live you got to die if you want to follow Christ you must serve you want to be a leader you've got to be a servant and all of these paradoxes are laid out for us this isn't then none of this language is new from to anyone that is listening to the program they know this language the key is is that there is a consistent way where this language is actually applied to our daily life Monday through Sunday and so when I say worker Doc's on purpose that's exactly what I'm talking about I'm not talking about just simply wearing a label I'm talking about actually embracing the hard work of being faithful and it isn't a mistake Hank that's throughout the centuries the Christian faith has called her followers the faithful not the successful not the powerful if not the rich the faithful and so how do you be faithful it's like I told a dear friend of mine who was asking me about this very same thing so how do what can you understand what the Holy Spirit is saying today if you don't know what he has said how can you really grasp what he's trying to tell you for me that's where the exuberance comes from the exuberance comes from finally being a train that has a track to run on and not just wandering around and being moved by every whim and wind of doctrine and the ground constantly shifting under my feet that was my experience in the world that I came from and it was exhausting it's kind of interesting when you say that was the world that I came from explained to people listening in what your understanding is about your condition before you went into orthodoxy were you a true follower of Christ if you would have died would you be with Christ today oh oh you know of course people ask me that all the time and they say father what about this group and what about that group and I always have this flippant answer that I always give them simply because somebody told me this father if you had to go into the priesthood you should have been a stand-up comedian oh how that goes but when I tell people all the time at guys I'm in sales I'm not management that's not my call I was a Christian Hank before I became Orthodox I was a Christian I was a follower of Jesus Christ I was following Jesus Christ as deeply and as desperately and I loved Jesus Christ as much as I knew how I tell people all the time it was like being raised in a mansion but only knowing only one closet in the whole big room and somebody one day left the door unlocked and I and I got out and found out hey man this place is bigger than I thought and so for me I certainly believed I certainly believed that that I was a follower of Jesus Christ I love Jesus Christ and I was convinced Jesus Christ loved me and that is the key here I never forget somebody quoted an old saying in the Orthodox Church that you may have many enemies in this world but God has never won it I know that can fly in the face of what how some people see God but Hank for me I have a real problem in siding with a snake in the garden impugning the character the father trying to say that he's somehow evil or he somehow withholding or somehow angry or he somehow I have power over God's mood I know God loves me and I know God loved me before I became Orthodox but this powerful reality that if another another quote that that I really love a lot if salvation were only up to God we would have nothing to fear I say that to some of my friends and they look at me like I have three eyes but that's really the glorious joy of discovering that God really is good and so of course I was a believer I grew up in the Pentecostal church my whole life and we were the holiness end a bit so we didn't we didn't wear a short sleeve shirts the women didn't cut their hair they didn't wear makeup the men didn't wear wedding rings or a watch because that was physical adornments we didn't go to the movies we I mean it was all that stuff I grew up that in that world my whole life and then of course became an evangelical when I went to school the first time and started working in Christian media with some large Evangelical Protestant media ministries and pastoring a church and so that's that evangelical world I know very well and frankly love because they taught me to love Jesus Christ and they taught me to love the Scriptures I'm never going to be repay those folks for that gift whatever that's beautifully said one of the things that's really interesting as well as you are talking about how you dressed before I think about how you dress now we're in Crete and it was very very warm and you were wearing robes talk about the significance of wearing robes because a lot of people see a priest in robes and they can't wrap their mind around it yeah and that's where well I'll say this this is something that I want everybody to think about by the way I did see you in shorts as well in the biddings you did but it don't tell anybody not because it's bad to wear shorts but my legs are horribly ugly but they're really that the truth of this is I think we always incarnate our theology everybody does whether it's a big theology or a small theology whether it's a full theology or a partial theology whether it's a healthy theology or an unhealthy theology theology always gets incarnated it what I mean by that it's always made visible so ever how much you believe or ever how little you that shows up in how you live the choices you make and throughout the centuries the church has said we want these clergymen to remember their mortality because if they don't remember their mortality they'll think they have power instead of being the chief servant so we're going to put them in these outfits that remind them that they need to remember their mortality they need to remember that they're servants to the people of God and not masters not some kind of princes and this humble way of dressing and frankly for me at least here in Georgia it's amazing to me these precious southern seas folks here of course that's my that's my my folks too I was raised in the South thank God I tell people all the time I'm American by birth but I'm southern by the grace of God but III wear my I wear my robes out in public and the people know me as Father Barnabas they greet me as father Barnabas they show me deep respect and and even though they don't understand you know what the what the garb is about but it really is about for me reminding me son remember whose servant you are remember who you're representing and we do that anyway we incarnate our ecclesiology so if your ecclesiology is very laid-back maybe your pastor wears a Hawaiian shirt and shorts on Sunday morning if you're if your ecclesiology is very much a CEO kind of model then maybe your pastors in a suit and tie and all of those are all of those are vestments they're all vestments it's just it's not a matter of what you're gonna have vestments or not but not have desolates the question is what do your investments say about what you think about the faith what do your vestments teach you now that's that's neither good nor bad it's just it just is and so we get to ask serious and honest questions about how seriously are we embracing the complete fullness of the faith and that's a californian that I eventually pursuit ordination and now I dress as a Greek Orthodox priest I want to talk a little bit about the church you raise this issue early and I was thinking as you were talking about the Church of st. Cyprian I used one of his quotes on the Bible in sermon broadcast as the quote of the day where he was saying that he cannot have God for his father who does not have the church for his mother when I gave that as the quote of the day there is quite a bit of pushback what do you mean that the church is our mother well I have explained on the Bible in sermon broadcast that the church is called the wife of the Lamb in the book of Revelation so you think about this idea of the church as our mother and it's thoroughly biblical it has a basis God is the father the church is the wife of the Father thus in that sense we rightly called the church our mother but here you have an early church father talking about the church as our mother talking about the significance of being connected to the church and many people see that in an adversarial way to see that as something you ought not to be saying and I think that belies an issue that perhaps we could discuss together which is the fact that people in America oftentimes see themselves as rugged individualists it's me and my Bible it's me and my faith as opposed to being baptized into a community of faith a spiritual gymnasium in which you grow and learn and develop yeah you know that's exactly the missing ingredient I was talking to a precious Evangelical Protestant pastor a friend of mine the other day and I told him I said brother the undiscovered country for many in American Christianity is the whole concept of ecclesiology what does it mean to be the body of Christ what does it mean to take those scriptural passages seriously what does it mean and what does it mean when the scripture many times when it says that when it uses the word you it should be translated the southern way y'all it's it's it's plural it's not necessarily individualistic and even to the point where how deep we want to run with this but one of the one of the reasons why I think this happens for us in the West many times is and this is a doctoral thesis just begging to be written is we really have we really have been the inheritors of a way of looking at God in such a way that we forget God as Trinity knows himself as persons in communion and we pay lip service to the doctrine of the Trinity but if you and I are really created in the image of God if that's true if it's not just some kind of fairy tale if humans are created in the image of God then we have to ask ourselves how does God know himself now we would not have known this had God not told us the best way humans have been able to come up with and some kind of Street monotheism where God is by himself up in heaven or a a polytheism where there's a God under every rock and behind every bush but the Christian faith invites us to a revelation and mystery the doctrine of the Trinity says God knows himself as persons in communion and there's a wonderful of theologian in in the Orthodox Church called John's azules and he wrote this book called being as communion and he talks about the absolute necessity for community to really get to know who I am personally not as an individual but as a person and the Orthodox Church would make a strong distinction between the concept of an individual and the concept of the person because a person is only a person in relationship so what does that mean that means that every time I was talking to people when I was a Protestant pastor telling them they need a personal relationship with Jesus I was telling them the truth that's exactly right but you can't just have a relationship with the head you've got to have a relationship with the whole body and the body includes the church that can't be divided by time it can't be divided by mortality Christ has conquered death and so not even death breaks Communion it is a continuity throughout the centuries where I am in per no relationship with real people not just ideas but with real people that have real ramifications with how I choose to live my life GK Chesterton said that tradition is the democracy of the Dead it gets giving your ancestors of votes I think that's pretty good yeah it is I want to get back this whole idea of liturgy it's an acquired taste I suppose for a lot of people that go to church and they want to be entertained they want a good sermon they want good music they want to liver quiver they want an experience and you walk into an Orthodox Church and yes all your senses are engaged but then you're involved in this literature and the liturgy is not only this Sunday but it's next Sunday and it's the Sunday following and it can get very very boring unless you recognizes you have taught people that this is a way to awake the soul how is that how does that work the soul well it's like this and this is a completely scriptural metaphor the Apostle Paul talked about being an athlete and I have been accused of being a lot of things but absolutely isn't one of that's just something that's just not my thing although when I really wake up to this to my spiritual to my physical hell I know my doctor is right when he says to me father you're gonna have to start a regiment of exercise for your physical health you're gonna have to start doing what you don't want to do so that you will be free to be who you are and initially you don't want to do it but I've got a great trainer now that is helping me a great deal and and and he's after me all the time and you know just stretching me out and that's really really good but it isn't pleasant initially until I start experiencing the freedom of being in good health and being limber and being able to move and I look at these wonderful athletes I'm a big fan of the Olympics and I love a Winter Olympics especially and I like that the ice skaters that's just absolutely amazing to me that somebody would put two strips of sharp metal on their feet and throw themselves around a frozen pond that just blows my mind but they're able do it but how are they able to do it they're able to do it because what you're seeing there on the screen is the culmination of years of Monday through Saturday 10:00 and 10 and 12 and 14 our practices every day for years till they're finally free to do these wonderful movements well if that's true in our physical lives it's going to be true about our spiritual discipline as well so that when the church invites me through an act of my freedom to embrace the hard work of being Orthodox on purpose and we forming me so that my life is shaped by the prayers of the consistent faith throughout the centuries through the liturgical life of the church the liturgy becomes my place where I get to spiritually exercise and then the liturgy becomes the place where God feeds me with himself he we give gifts to him and God says thank you so much for these gifts I don't need it home but I'll tell you what I'll do I'll take the gifts that you've given me I'll fill them up too with myself and I'll give them right back to you as true spiritual drink the true spiritual food I won't keep the thing you give me I'll just take it but you need to give it to me because developing gratitude is the absolute essential part of being a Christian period full stop in the discussion an ungrateful person will never be holy and so if until you can learn how to be grateful and that's it that is a skill that you have to learn and it's a skill that you have to learn to take your eye off yourself and so the liturgy is the perfect school I would argue in the Orthodox Church the liturgy is the perfect school to reorient me away from myself and my own needs and my own pleasure back to Jesus Christ I never forget a lady coming to me after a church service one Sunday and she said father I didn't really much out of the service today well that's okay dear I understand but please know and I don't mean this as an insult but please know we didn't do it for you notice I was facing away from you most of the day I'm standing facing with you Jesus Christ we're doing this work to bring worship and adoration to the uncreated God through his son who has risen from the dead Jesus Christ I need to learn how to do that Hank if I'm ever going to truly be who I really am I really love that and I'll tell you that that is precisely how I feel when I open those big cathedral doors they're very very heavy at st. Nick taargus where I happen to go I open those doors and when I walk into the church for some reason or other I am acutely aware that I'm there to worship God it isn't about being entertained it isn't about a good sermon I hope there is a good homily but it's about worshipping God and it's about engaging the whole of my being in the process and as I was listening to you you were sort of and maybe emphatically so describing the church as a gymnasium a spiritual gymnasium but a gymnasium nonetheless and when you talk about the church is a spiritual gymnasium perhaps it's helpful to elaborate you sort of alluded to some of these things I mean in the church you have a church calendar you have church fasts and church feasts all of these are part and parcel of being trained not just physically but spiritually okay men okay and the neat thing about it is is notice it is both and it's not either/or and that's three times what we we American Christians we disembody the faith we disembodied a faith by saying you know this is about saving my soul or this is about this is about making sure that I believe all the right doctrines and none of that is bad but it's certainly not enough and it certainly doesn't take the the unbelievable miracle that God has become flesh and Jesus Christ didn't become flesh just so that the father could have something to kill Jesus Christ became flesh - where'd our flesh his divinity so that we'll enjoy being with God because you're gonna be with God anyway I mean that's just the way it is David King David said if I ascend to heaven behold you're there if I didn't make my bed in hell behold you're there there's no place that I can go from your face God is omnipresent your and the only thing that keeps us from experiencing either joy or torment now by that reality is that we're so deluded and we're so asleep to the fact that God is right here he's a friend that sticks closer than a brother God is with us right now and there'll be a day when the veil will be pulled back and there'll be no hiding place anymore so how you learn how to enjoy being with God now is absolutely essential but Hank I want you to notice this this doesn't have anything to do with getting God to love me that's a settled issue God loves me period full stop in discussion I have no power over God God is all-powerful and he has decided to love me don't ask me why it's none of my business I'm just enjoying it thank God but God loves me because he's created me in His image to be in his likeness God loves me but all of the work that I do in this spiritual gymnasium the fasting the feasting the keeping of the church calendar the daily prayers midnight office or morning prayers Matins 1st 3rd 6th 9th our comp line back to midnight office Vespers and then back to midnight office I always tease people when they say that some groups only pray five times a day I said that's sad they only prays five times a day how sad is that it's too bad they should pray more and so all of this work is to shape me and to for me not to make God happy God's fine the reality is I need to be reformed in my own soul so that I will be fit for eternity I will call where I am the joyous place of being with the God I love and learning how to love him learning how to turn myself away from my selfishness learning how to build to build gratitude in my life all of these wonderful disciplines are given to me for that purpose and when you see it that way then it becomes much more about keeping God happy or making this angry God appeasing this angry God I talk to people all the time our idea of God is not super Manor Zeus our idea of God is God the Father the creator of heaven and earth of the visible and the invisible and that view of God is what should shape me and which should shape even my motivations to live for him even my motivation is sanctified by the truth of who God really is let's talk about some of the spiritual disciplines you've alluded to fasting a number of times and I have to tell you that that is one of the more difficult disciplines that I've had to learn because quite frankly I just never fasted before and even now I catch myself on Wednesdays or Fridays and I realize oh my goodness I broke the fast that I was committed to have and it's just because it hasn't been part of my routine journey the majority of my life and yet this is one of the most beautiful parts of the Orthodox Christian faith the discipline of fasting it has huge significance I mean our stomachs they cry out there on rouille children they're controlling us and we're trying to break that bondage yeah and that really is what this is about this is about freedom now the paradox in the normal Christian faith throughout the centuries is freedom is one through slavery and and freedom freedom is one through discipline that's the way freedom is always one that's the way freedom is held that's the way freedom is kept I can't listen to some of the the folks talking about our wonderful nation that we live in here in the United States and they say you know the price of freedom is constant vigilance well amen what do you think that came from that came from the reality that if I'm going to be free in my in my spiritual lives it is going to be through the paradoxical teaching of disciplining my choices and my behaviors I have to teach my desires who's boss and if I don't teach my desires who's boss then I will be mastered by my desires why do you think people want to be entertained rather than do the hard work of worship because that's that's that's it's easier but not forever and it's pleasant but not forever what many people don't realize is that many times these wonderful places that are gathering all these folks thank God that they're there because they're introducing people to Christ that's wonderful and that's fantastic but their back door is as busy as their front door many times even busier because folks can only go to kindergarten for so long and eventually you have to say okay what do I need to do to Sol reform my life what do I need and in fact one of the things that got me journeying to orthodoxy many many years ago is the the book celebrating the disciplines by the the Quaker dear brother I can't remember his name now whatever mercy but he wrote the book celebrating the disciplines where he was trying to reintroduce and among a lot of us evangelicals the real power of the disciplines of the faith and the Orthodox faith has three basic disciplines prayer fasting and almsgiving and the church says that prayer fasting and almsgiving are the antidotes for three great giants that are constantly trying to capture us and to destroy us ignorance forgetfulness and sloth or laziness prayer overcomes ignorance because Hanks to know a mr. loving and if I pray if I spend time with God I get to know him better it's not about knowing about but it's very much like the old English in this in the scriptures where Adam knew his wife even she conceived and that is always the way of true knowing it always brings forth life always so prayer it overcomes ignorance fasting overcomes forgetfulness there's nothing like the power of a rumbling ability to remind me where in the world I'm not eating that BB swapper with cheese and that powerful discipline reminds me am I going to allow my my desires to master me or am I going to through the grace of God and through the power of the Holy Spirit into the through the love of Jesus Christ working in me God and I cooperating together overcome this desire in fact it's not a mistake brother that it was eating that got us in trouble in the first place and it's and it's now disciplining how we eat that begins to untie the not of that fall and that is a powerful reality and so frankly in the Orthodox Church we fast in season Fridays every week we fast before we received we receive the Lord's Supper on Sundays and we there's there there are several times during the year where we have extended periods of fasting where we don't eat any meat or dairy and oil or wine or anything like that we're basically vegans for about half the year and all of that interestingly enough even science tells us is a healthier way to eat well not only is it a healthier way to eat if I discipline my desires for my physical body it's a healthier way to eat for my spiritual life and it also does something extremely important it puts the lie to this diet this false dichotomy of the physical and the spiritual and when when that wall is broken down when that when that delusion is overcome because the fact of the matter is you're a whole creature and if you don't understand that about yourself then you're not you're only you're not going to understand the true cosmic significance of the salvation of Jesus Christ Jesus Christ becomes flesh so that we might become and goddddd and how in the world are we going to do that we do that in our flesh just as our Lord Jesus did and so these spiritual disciplines are absolutely key for me to train my desires to focus on God and to be my servants and not my masters none of my desires are bad they're just disordered they need to be healed they need to be disciplined interesting and when you mention Richard Foster's book celebrating disciplines it's really significant to recognize that first word you're celebrating these disciplines they're a celebration they're not a deprivation not at all in fact that's one of the lies that our modern world tells us the lies our modern world tells us is that well we wanted to self-actualize we want to just I'm trying to find myself well guess what the only way to find yourself is to find the only true human that's ever lived and that's Jesus Christ Jesus Christ is the perfect human you humans are going to know who or in the face of Jesus Christ Jesus Christ is the center Jesus Christ is the focus Jesus Christ is the purpose he's the goal when you talk about fasting or alms giving when you talk about the spiritual disciplines in general including prayer so often people have this misconception particularly when it comes to the discipline of fasting that you are trying to work yourself into God's grace that you're trying to work yourself into God's favor that you are trying to earn salvation through what you do and so with that vein of thinking many people will say the Orthodox Church teaches salvation by works how would you respond to that I would say swing them is the reason why I would say that is because they're looking at the Orthodox spiritual disciplines through Western either Roman Catholic or Protestant Reformation eyes and that's certainly a fight that occurred in the West but it didn't occur in the East among the Orthodox simply because our understanding of salvation wasn't about some kind of idea of satisfaction but it is about Jesus Christ ascending the wood of the cross as a champion to destroy the enemies that are keeping us from realizing why we were made in the first place and that is to be God's eternal compassion in companion God intended us to be his throughout eternity God made us because he loved us there's nothing I can do to make God love me God already loves me that's a settled issue what the church says is okay you're going to eventually stand before the awesome judgment seat of Christ do you have the good sense and the humility to use the time before that moment to acclimate yourself to the eternal life with Jesus Christ to love God notice in the last day Hank that the Lord Jesus doesn't have a magic wand in his hand turning people in sheep and goats as they come up there to make you a sheep but no they show up as who they are and the Sheep go on the one side goats go on the other side and it isn't about whether God loves them or doesn't love them it's about who they are and so the church says here is a lifestyle that will help you reform yourself through the grace of God through the power of the Holy Spirit the presence of the Holy Spirit in your life being nurtured by the Eucharist of the church being nurtured by your brothers and sisters and assisted in doing this not by yourself as if me and Jesus got our own thing going but in the community of the faith where we're all doing this together it's funny because people will ask me many times they'll say oh well father what are you giving up for Lent I'm giving up exactly the same thing that every other Orthodox Church every Christian is doing across the world we don't fast by ourselves we fast together as a family and it's in that kind of disciplined way of thinking that reorients my life it isn't that God is being made happy it's that I'm being made more able to enjoy him that's beautifully said and I would like to add something to this and the idea being when we as Christians say we believe the Bible we so often with respect to faith and works point to Paul's words in Ephesians where he says that it is by grace that we have been saved through faith that this is not from ourselves it is the gift of God not of works so that no one can boast and I used to quote that all the time but one of the passages that I didn't add to it is the very next verse which says that we are God's handiwork that we are created in Christ Jesus were created in Christ Jesus to do something good works which God prepared in advance for us to do and if you go over to the book of James it's very very interesting that James has Abraham as an icon as it were where you see his faith and his actions working together and that passage were told by James so you see my friend that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone now people here what we've just said and say Wow is there a contradiction between Paul and James which is it I mean are you saved by works you're justified by what you do and not by faith alone or are you saved through faith and this not of yourselves it is a gift and the answer of course is yes and the neat thing about it is it's it's again what I tell people all the time is it's not that these ideas are mistaken that these theological things that have grown up through I mean listen it's just been 500 years since the Protestants Hasmik Church split from the Orthodox Church in 1054 around there and so there's been a lot of things happening in the West and a lot of times people when they're talking to we Orthodox well either talk to us like we're on one of those teams and the reality is it's not so much that any of that is wrong it's just too small my understanding of grace can be too small my understanding of works can be too small my understanding of justification can be too small the fact of the matter is Hank Jesus Christ is risen from the dead he has destroyed mortality he destroyed death everybody's going to be raised from the dead everybody some folks are going to know how to enjoy it some folks are gonna hate it but everybody's gonna be so we have been saved by grace God has graciously lavished this earth with his unbelievable mercy and his kindness and there going to be some folks who experienced that unbelievable mercy and kindness as nothing but torment and they'll hate it but for those of us who have been able to wake up and wake up from the delusions and understand that we're we live in and we live in a rebel wall within a rebel society and we have to swim against the stream of the way the world is going that huge and and thoroughfare where people are going to their destruction we are invited to swim upstream and through the disciplines of the faith not earn God's salvation that's a settled issue but to learn how to embrace it and call it joy and that's not easy for self-centered people they have to have a Redemption they have to come to the to the end of themselves and they have to understand that they need to come to Christ and when they do that Christ invites them to a lifestyle that makes them like Christ as the Apostle Paul said over and over and over again as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ and that's what we're trying to learn how to enjoy so in essence you were telling me be quiet don't try to get me involved in a debate if that we're not part of in the Eastern Church I mean that's a Western debate there's a reason why it grew up in the West there's a reason why I grew up in the West there's a reason why this was this was a predominant argument in in the development of Western Christianity and there's a reason why it didn't develop in the Orthodox world there's lots of that we could talk about that for a month and a half but it's not been done in a corner all of this stuff has been written down all this history is there this is a discoverable phenomena you do not have to guess this has all been written down all of this stuff has been experienced this is normal Christianity throughout the centuries and if you want to learn how to how to find out what's going on that's a discoverable phenomena it's not that you don't have to have secret information and know the secret handshake and get into this this is all discoverable stuff I mentioned your first book of faith and courage which is a devotional guide to being Orthodox on purpose but you have another book rejecting rapture mania it's an Orthodox look at a very dubious doctrine this by all accounts a dubious doctrine I wrote about this in a book called the apocalypse coat find out what the Bible really says about the end times and why it matters today when you talk about rejecting rapture mania what the Church teaches and what the church has always God is part of the discussion yeah yeah exactly in fact I co-opted that with a priest friend of mine father John Peck and one of the things that we were trying to do and interestingly enough Hank I don't know this is we I guess it is weird because in the Pentecostal world that I grew up in I was actually raised by a pastor who was omlette interestingly enough and so he had never taught anything about a secret rapture or a literal thousand-year reign afterwards and then the Beast and all that kind of stuff we'd always seen this differently and imagine my surprise when I find out that there is that there's a much fuller understanding of this whole idea of the second coming of Jesus that doesn't feed this is important it doesn't feed sensationalism and my and my temptation to become drunk on titillating information who's the beast what does that mean where is that going what about what happens to these people in this and what about 144,000 and all of this stuff that gets just it becomes so consuming to some people they forget to even love God they forget to even love Christ their passions take over one friend called him on the National Inquirer side of Christianity takes over and they become impassioned over this subject to the point where they really miss the real power of the the consistent teaching of the church about the Apocalypse about the parasya the second coming of Jesus and in fact I'm doing a class right now at the church on Wednesday mornings on the book of Revelation precisely to overcome this passionate and what I would consider intoxicating diversion from the real purpose of John's revelation it's the revelation of Jesus Christ it's the revelation of Jesus Christ the book of the revelation is about Jesus Christ and it's about the victory of Jesus Christ and it's about the victory of Jesus Christ even after there's been painful situations in the world of history Jesus Christ out that tell people all the time so folks I've looked in the back of the book we win it's going to happen and all of this wonderful information John gives us in the book of the revelation very very powerful powerful teaching to help us live right now in this moment by the grace of God and with confidence and with joy and so I co-wrote this book with father John specifically to deal with what I saw as an intoxicating misunderstanding that many people have allowed their lives to be consumed by to the point where they're completely missing the point altogether that's kind of interesting because you have in the book of Revelation persecution so you have a persecuted bride you have a prostituted bride and ultimately you have a perfected right that the bridegroom carries over the threshold of Jordan into a New Jerusalem and that brings up a related issue which is the Bible says we will be persecuted where as so many people in the church today think that we're going to be lifted out of persecution which defies everything that we experience in this life in them if you look for example at the Levant you have what mass genocide of Christians and that's squarely in the blind spot of the West so persecution is going on with respect to faithful believers in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ right now so we're not going to be lifted out of persecution we're going to endure in the midst of persecution that's what revelation says you're gonna suffer for a short time your vindication is going to be an eternal vindication Amen that's it and one of the things that people miss and I think this is another reason why we I mean thank God that I'm an American citizen I think I thank God that I've been blessed to be part of this country but the reality is is that there is a blind spot in our country because of our eternal optimism the sickness underneath that is that we have treated pain and we've treated suffering as if it were the ultimate bad and look what's happening in the West the West is struggling with this whole idea of euthanasia and the West is now using death lethal injection as medicine because pain is the ultimate bad and when you fall into that delusion when you fall into that error that pain is the ultimate bad now pain is not good pain is not pleasant but neither is being in the fire to be purified that's not a pleasant situation this is about being pleasant this is about being faithful and so the West has struggled society-wide with this notion that pain is the ultimate bad it even gets in tried in popular American theology where we have this notion that you know God wants to reign a Cadillac down my head or he wants my bank account to be full and I should never be suffering in fact if I'm suffering I've sinned and all of this misunderstanding and frankly I'm convinced the trick of the evil one to get me away from the power that pain has to wake me up to eternal cut to eternal realities because there's not one bit of pain save the pain of rejecting Jesus Christ that is eternal and how dare I put on something temporary and eternal worth what's eternally valuable is my relationship with Jesus Christ that's what's valuable and whatever brings that to fruition whatever brings that to maturity then that is a gift to me and when that happens in a Christians life when they have that change of their mind when they have bet my Tanya if you will in Greek where to where we get our word repentance when we have that change of mind then not one bit of pain in my life in any instance is has the power to destroy me in fact it has the very power to turn me towards God and make me like Jesus Christ and that's that becomes a gift brother that undoes the power of pain and difficulty to ever destroy me in fact the best work of the evil one helps the Lord shape Christ inside of me that's got to be frustrating to the devil don't you think yeah absolutely and you know what's interesting is you're speaking about this is to reflect on the fact that this rapture mania to use the word in the title of your book here this is a very very new thing in terms of church history John Nelson Darby popularized it but what I find exhilarating encounter distinction to this is that you know the Pope can speak acts cathedra you can have some new Dogma limba purgatory whatever or John Nelson Darby can come up with a new dogma that the church knew nothing about in its history the liberating part of our discussion is that we can go back to the ancient church fathers and thirst tremendous wisdom there there's a repository of knowledge that we can glean from and we don't have to make up new dogmas in the 21st century to account for you know whatever new thing happens to sparkle in the horizon of our mind yeah exactly and one of the things that I fell in love with in my own journey to orthodoxy was again I was tired of the ground shifting under my feet every 3 or 4 years especially in the world that I was in it seemed like any new doctrine or new worship style would cause the worship wars on if you remember those or not but and the Evangelical Protestant world the worship wars where we going to do choruses we're going to do the inputs and the chorus is one and and the reality is and again that's neither good nor bad it just is but it is a symptom of a disconnect from from timelessness one of the things that I feel I did I did a video series called journey to fullness it's a 16 part 20 minute videos each of introducing people to the Orthodox faith and one of the things that I say in a journey to fullness is lots of churches are using it to introduce orthodoxy to people one of the things that I say in the journey to fullness is that I'm not looking for something old just because something's old doesn't mean it's good I'm looking for something timeless its timelessness that I need something that is what what st. Vincent Lauren said what is believed everywhere always by all universality antiquity and consensus and where wherever I find that it's no guarantee we're not talking about guarantees you want to guarantee by a dishwasher but if you want if you want to find out where where the place to kind of put your your energy find those three things universality antiquity and consensus and you'll find in them the kernel of timelessness eternality and that's what I think I need to learn how to be eternal the I'm gonna live forever that's a settled issue I need to learn how to make that joy and so the church preserves throughout these centuries through the work of the Holy Spirit the powerful work of the Holy Spirit the midst of this church to shape us and deform us and to teach us so that I don't have to reinvent the wheel every three or four generations for heaven's sake but that I can have the humility to give voice to at least have a listening ear to what the Holy Spirit has been saying for 20 centuries and what he's saying is the way to make myself timeless not gripped by not gripped by time not enslaved by time but set free from the power of time to destroy in fact time becomes gift to me to have a space to learn how to be with Jesus Christ and to learn how to become like Jesus Christ that's the most important thing any human can do you know when we talk about the early church fathers a lot of people might think that we're going back just sort of cave ish people people who were not enlightened people who are not scientific and they lived in a pre-scientific era and therefore you're really going back to people who aren't as advanced as we are today and this by the way is a very real prejudice and I will have to confess that I might have had some of that prejudice in my own heart and mind until I started reading the Father and then I became absolutely intoxicated with their brilliance and early edition and realized wow I cannot believe I ever thought that before but part of the problem here seems to me father Byrne of us that we're not only biblically illiterate in our culture but we're historically illiterate as well oh yeah yeah yeah in fact I think it was CS Lewis Lewis GK Chechen I can't remember but he called it chronological snobbery yeah and I love that phrase I think that's exactly it it's chronological snobbery and and it flows from an elephant to be kind and and frankly to be honest most people this isn't like they woke up one day and say oh I'm just going to that I'm smarter than anybody there cause they're there they're there reality of the world that they raised you this is just what is it was kind of like the the book years ago it was on fire when I laid down on it this is I was I was born into this world and the key is is that we've got to come to the grips with the fact that we don't have to stay there we don't have to stay uninformed we don't have to stay in this chronological snobbery we don't have to stay in this amnesia of our brothers and sisters who have come before us who have left us such treasures spiritual treasure just scattered at our feet for heaven's sake and all of them are life-giving and joy and they're all set on fire of the holy spirits they glow with the work of the Holy Spirit and because the Holy Spirit is blessed throughout these centuries I mean I don't I don't see how anybody can read the Cappadocia Fathers and not think man I need to go back and get two PhDs before I can really even sit in the same room with these guys it's brilliant stuff and it's in it's beautiful stuff st. Simeon the new theologian I mean and even going back to st. Ignatius and and st. Athanasius and all these at the very earliest part of the church listening to them and reading what they say it's obvious it's exactly what it's exactly what the scripture says of the Apostles these precious fishermen whom had been who had been filled with the Holy Spirit and nobody could speak against them none of the most educated of the day could speak against them because they were able to speak under the gift of the Holy Spirit to to overcome the wisdom of the world and that's exactly what the Holy Spirit has been doing for 20 centuries let's talk about two problems one of the problems that I see is that people outside of orthodoxy they're not familiar with it they're pretty sure they don't like it even if they don't know much about it the other hand I have found in my own truck into orthodoxy that the Orthodox are largely unfamiliar and this is a bit of a generalization but many Orthodox are largely unfamiliar with a treasure chest that they've been involved in it's like a fish that's in water unaware of the water that is surrounding him and is supplying him with everything that he needs to exist and so that is something that needs to be countered because if you look at orthodoxy in the Western world it is shamefully small the Orthodox Church is not growing at the rate it ought to be growing if it is the precious jewel the buried treasure that I certainly think that it is yeah yeah I think you're exactly right and frankly one of the things that gave birth to this whole idea of being Orthodox on purpose why I do a daily devotional why I wrote the book why did the journey to fullness series well I did all of that and frankly it's kind of funny because I have over 200 parishes that are using the video series to introduce people to the faith and Hank the really amazing thing is is that the vast majority of people that are take going through the classes are lifelong Orthodox mm-hmm and they they write me and they write me notes and they say you know father I just didn't know I just didn't know and to be fair orthodoxy wherever one-third oxi has gone as a missionary movement has always becomes a dominant expression of Christianity in that area that's just a historical fact with the possible exception of Japan for some specific reasons but the reality is throughout the history where orthodoxy was planted as a missionary movement it became the dominant expression of Christianity the reason why is chemos make the sign of the Cross from right to left but orthodoxy didn't come to the lower 48 as a missionary movement it came as a refugee movement and an immigrant movement and just like any refugee or immigrant movement when it comes to a new place they circle the wagons around what's familiar and they they try to survive and most of them were coming here running for their lives orthodoxy is the most persecuted form of Christianity in the history of humanity and with with these folks being shaped by 400 years of Turkish occupation and the Ottoman Empire in in the Mediterranean area to the horrible situation of the Orthodox Church in Russia where they were under the boot of the atheistic communism most of these people are the very fact that they stayed Orthodox is a miracle now unfortunately the problem is they stayed Orthodox at a very minimal level in other words they knew I can't tell how many times I've talked to my lifelong Orthodox brothers and sisters in my parish and we never would do a Bible study they'd say well you know father we were never taught that we just told ya I got which is Greek for grandmother Yahya told us this just way we do it ma ya ya why do we do this well it's because I say so and that works for a while but it's certainly not going to work in the day and age of of the the Internet people being able to have the freedom to choose and the the reality that religion in this United in the United States is as much a commodity as buying a dishwasher and you like that brand over this brand that's just the reality of American religion it's very much shaped by our capitalistic ideas of what life is and that's good and bad and a lot of things we could talk about that but the reality is orthodoxy has always as a missionary movement really became the religion and the expression of religion for the people fact we even have a hymn at the end of the divine liturgy that is very powerful we say we have seen the light the true light we have received the heavenly Spirit we have found the true faith worshipping the undivided Trinity who has saved us and I tell Orthodox groups on travel over 10,000 miles last year speaking different parts of the country and so on and so forth and I tell all my Orthodox folks I said folks do you really believe that do you really do you really think that's true then what will you say to Christ if you really believe that to have all this spiritual food and allow your neighbor to starve to death spiritually how can you justify this at the same time we are also being able to help these precious ones learn what it means to do evangelism in an orthodox way that isn't about notches on the spiritual bedpost but it is completely about being loving neighbors and sharing this treasure with as many people as we possibly can because Hank I believe this with all my heart and I've taught my folks is this the reason why we're 70% convert in our community we believe that everybody that comes to our church wants to be Orthodox they just don't know what yet and with that attitude we've been able to help people find on ramps to this beautiful treasure so that they have a way to relate to it and I'm convinced that's got to become the norm in our Orthodox experience here in the West if we're ever going to be credible about the theology that we have you talked about the notches on the belt and that reminds me of the difference between being transactional and being transformational I mean maybe getting someone to pray a prayer as opposed to bringing them into the church life yes exactly and it because listen we humans love magic we prefer magic magic is easier so if I can just say the magic words and poof it's done then that's that's great I'm all for that but the hard work of introducing people to a lifestyle of a disciplined Christian way of life is it requires me to be much more vulnerable to them much more honest with them much more patient with them I have to actually be like Jesus Christ to people which is really kind of good because I need to become like Jesus Christ and so I need to be patient with folks I need to love folks I need to give folks ways to talk about this I need to talk to them and get to know them and not just see them as just just a person that needs to be convinced that we're right and they're wrong and they need to say these words so that they'll be on our team that's can't that can't be the way that the Christians it's never been the way the Christian faith is operated and it's certainly not going to be the way the Christian faith is propagated now st. Maximus the Confessor one of the most brilliant theologians of his day he was born in the 6th century I believe he said it is a great achievement not to be attracted by things but it is a far greater achievement to remain dispassionate in the face both of things and of the conceptual images we derive from those things talk about how significant it is for you and I and it's a constant battle particularly if you become elevated Minister it's a constant battle the ability to be free from a slave right to desires yeah I think this is the father is talked about throughout the centuries the published talk about the power of sobriety in fact you've even heard me mention it a couple of three times already during our conversation the fathers talked about sobriety in such a way that insists that I learn from the small physical temptations of a lack of sobriety that that is a real danger throughout my life both physically and spiritually emotionally and mentally and even in relationships I am in danger of a lacking sobriety a lacking a clear-headedness that allows me to see where the pitfalls are and go around them or to see where my goal needs to be and not be distracted into side roads or or dead ends in my life that I run into over and over again about you but I bet you there folks that are listening right now that are saying to themselves yeah I really am tired of getting caught down a road I never intended to go down and so the fathers say that the spiritual disciplines the this idea of sobriety is absolutely key for me to avoid the temptation of being intoxicated either by praise or even insult there's a great story of this priest who was very dejected because they didn't people didn't like him and so he went to his spiritual father and he said father what am I gonna do nobody likes me I'm not being successful in my work what do I need to do and so the spiritual father he was very wise and loved the young man said I want you to do something for me will you obey me said of course father I will and I want you to go to the cemetery and I want you to insult every person there in the cemetery that are that are buried there and I want you to do this for two weeks straight every day and then I want you to come back to me so of course he obeys and he does that she's okay now I want you to go back to the cemetery and I want you to lavish praise off and and flatter each one for two weeks straight and so the priest did exactly who was supposed to until after the end of these four weeks he comes back to the spiritual father he says no father I've done everything you've told me but this is confusing to me these are all people in the cemetery he said exactly when you insulted them were they offended no when you praised them did they get puffed up and arrogant no father there there there did he said when you can treat insult and praise in equally the same way you'll begin to be free and brother that takes a willingness for a and interior honesty and a relationship with a spiritual father that you can kind of go and check in and this is the reason why we were never meant to be Christians by ourselves we were always meant to be Christians in communion in fact one of the old sayings is no one goes to heaven alone but everyone goes to hell along and this the power of this practical way of life having a spiritual father of working the disciplines to wake me up and to keep me sober to keep me from falling into the temptations that so easily trip me up when I'm not paying attention these gifts to me is what the Orthodox Way is supposed to be about in the first place explain what the discipline of confession is all about a lot of people when they think about confession they immediately go to the idea of a booth a Roman Catholic priest and you're confessing to the priest talk about the discipline number one number two the difference between how confession is conducted in the Eastern Church as opposed to the Western Church yeah it's one of the most liberating moments of my life was my first confession and it was uh it was we were entering the church we myself and my dear friend rod Loudermilk and his wife and family and 20 other families from the church I was pastoring in Woodstock Georgia we all entered the Orthodox Church at the same time and one of the things that we needed to do each of us needed to make a a confession as we were getting ready to be received into the church and of course we had every one of them in the Hollywood ideas of that going into the booth and Father forgive me as I said it's been three months since my last confession you know the little door slides open and you can't see the priest he can't see you and all this kind of stuff and what people don't realize is that throughout the earliest centuries of the church confession was always done publicly and it was done before you before you all went to the Eucharist together because the whole idea of the Eucharistic discipline of the church is that we're one we're together we're we've repented we're following Christ and we're going to have this this Last Supper with Jesus Christ as as fellow laborers with Jesus Christ and his brothers and sisters and his any spiritual children so the whole purpose of confession even from a biblical standpoint was always about reconciliation it was never about punishment and we had all these ideas about punishment okay here's your penance II yes so that's and that's that's not the way it's talked about in the Orthodox Church in fact it's interesting when someone comes to me for confession one of the things I say to them my brother or my sister whatever you have to tell me today you do not tell me but you tell to Christ in whose presence we stand I am merely a witness I am merely a witness here to stand with you as your brother to help you through this to offer whatever whatever God gives me to give you and as a brother in Christ as a spiritual father to help you and to help you overcome these things that you keep tripping over so that it isn't about you being punished punishment is not the point it is about being healthy and sometimes when you go to the doctor he gives you medicine that taste bad and that's exactly but but the purpose of it is it to punish you to make you feel bad the purpose is to get you healthy and that's exactly what the the understanding of confession in the Orthodox Church is all about it's about being healthy it's not about being corrective it's not because we don't see sin as the breaking of a rule we see sin as the wounding of a relationship it's not the breaking of a rule it's the wounding of a relationship that attitude toward sin is a very significant you watch the difference between the Orthodox world and Western Christianity many times because too many times in the West it seems that we have taught people that sin is oh that's a violation of the rule and say here's so if you if you run the stop sign then this is what and it's on the books and that's the way it is but in real life sin is the missing of the mark it isn't the fracturing of a rule it's the missing of the mark it's exactly the imagery of the archer pulling back his bow and his arrow and firing his arrow and missing the bull's eye and to the extent that you missed the bull's eye where they spot a little bitter about a whole lot that's it and so the key in confession is how do I discipline myself so when I shoot the arrow I get closer to the bullseye we talked about liturgy one of the things we didn't talk about and I've talked about it obviously many times in the Bible amen broadcaster there podcast but I think it always bears re-emphasis and that is the epicenter of liturgy is Eucharist it's all about the Thanksgiving meal and the significance of partaking of uncreated energy for only God is uncreated so something very dynamic and dramatic is happening and for the most part I would say the vast swath of Christianity has very little concept of the significance of this Thanksgiving meal I think this is the center of strength and our greatest weakness when we miss what's going on in the Eucharistic life of being a Christian Christianity is Eucharistic at its core what I mean by that is this the word Eucharist comes from the Greek word as Hari stole which means thank you and so that at the very core of what it means to be Christian is the ability to learn how to be grateful if you cannot be grateful you will not worship and so the discipline of learning how to be grateful is at the very heart of what it means to be Christian normal Christianity for 20 centuries this is without exception at any time in any place in any culture no matter what the language was no matter what the governmental structure was normal Christianity had bread and wine every week period full stop in the discussion that's normal and you then you have to say okay why why developed and the reason why developers because our Lord Jesus Institute he instituted it at the Last Supper he said this is my body this is my blood do this in uneasy remembrance of me on our knees and it isn't like let's recall a past event that's not what the memory in memory of me means it is on am nieces who literally means to put myself as if I were in the event itself as it's happening it's like the old show that I used to watch on Saturday mornings in the seventies you are there with Walter Cronkite I've just dated myself by many decades I apologize that but the reality is the Eucharistic life of the church in the understanding the timeless understanding of the Eucharistic life of the church as the body of Christ I love what father Alexander Schmemann said in his in his book the Eucharist he says the body of Christ gathers as the body of Christ to consume the body of Christ so that they might be the body of Christ and that's significant they're in learning how to be grateful and learning how to offer my life to God well I said over over and over again let us commend ourselves one another and our entire lives to Christ our God to offer my life to God knowing that God is complete within himself he needs nothing so what does he do with my gifts he fills them up with himself and gives them back to me as true bread and true food our mother and father ate in the garden and so now we are invited to eat and live there's a reason for this Hank and it goes to absolutely the core of what it means to be a human being created the image of God it's easy I don't even know if I have the English words to do this it is essential to the formation of a person to be like Jesus Christ the ability to learn to be grateful I want to talk about one other thing and that has to do with the environment which we find ourselves in modern-day America in particular we find herself in an environment where the church is being pressed upon from all sides two of the great forces against the Christian Church today you have the insistent dynamic of Islam that again is not only affecting the Western Church but the church around the world you also have a liberal liberalism and so when the church is being besieged as it were we have to stand together or we're gonna hang separately and not to quote Benjamin Franklin can you weigh in on the doctrine of unity and the fact that the church must work together on common cause issues that we must love one another support one another there's place for tribes but there's no place for tribalism at least if you agree with that I think it's exactly right and it's it reminds me of a story in the Gospels and you know this past is well the disciples come back to Jesus say listen Jesus and I'm gonna put this in the father part of a southern East translation because it sounds like my grandmother so that's important to me they come back to Jesus they say Jesus we found this guy casting out demons in your name we told him to stop because he wasn't part of our company and Jesus looks at them and says fellas how long why would you do something like that don't you know if somebody's casting out demons in my name they can't turn around and say that I'm a bad guy if they're not if they're not against us there's force if they're force they're all against us and that's the attitude that we have to have with people in general people of goodwill that we might we may differ on this or that and frankly I'm Orthodox for a reason I stopped being a Protestant for a reason I believe they're good reasons I believe they're important reasons but the truth is is that we those of us who love Jesus Christ have to find a way to talk with one another and support one another and say to the world this is the new community this is the this is the community prayed for in John 17 fatherland could be one like you and I are one and we have to find ways to talk about that and get to know one another and spend time with one another and encourage one another to stand against the gross individualistic darkness that is that is threatening to consume future generations with delusion the delusion of people don't even know who they are anymore they don't even know what gender they are anymore they don't even know the level of chaos and the level of confusion that exists in our world today and there are those who are going to say well no this is good that this confusion exists and we in the church need to be able to say no dear ones your this is the way to life this is the way to peace this is the way to becoming who you really are with all of our problems with all of our brokenness with all of our confusion going back to who Jesus Christ is that's the key and we have to do that Hank we have to find ways to do that the reason why I love something that a precious Orthodox priest told me early on when I was converting to orthodoxy and I was very bitter at my past I was very angry at my past how dare they led me astray they did me wrong bla bla bla and he looked at me and he said Barnabas as long as you cannot be grateful to these people you will never be Orthodox and I said father what do you mean by these he said those folks talk to the name of Jesus they taught you to love the Holy Scriptures they taught you hymns and songs that you're going to have ringing in your heart the rest of your life these folks did the best they could with what they had they gave you the best food they had and you're going to be ungrateful that's not moral and it's not Orthodox and it was a wonderful liberating moment for me and a wonderful spiritual discipline to me that set me free to love all of the wonderful things that God had put in my life to prepare me for this for this ultimate spiritual journey into orthodoxy so we have to find a way to break down this tribalism that says you know it's me and Jesus got our own thing going or you know us for and no more and all of that it's a danger to it and it's mainly a danger because it isn't true what is true is we're all created in the image of God and until we recognize that and even our enemy Jesus makes unbelievably outlandish statements when he says listen if you if you want to if you want to be my disciple you have to love your enemies do good to those who persecute you find a way to look at them and see the image of God in everyone you see even the people who hate you and even during the divine leaders I'll come out to the people and I'll bow deeply I say for those who love us and for those who hate us this sobriety that we've been talking about this whole program even extends to our ability to never consider another human being an enemy we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers and high places and it's only by being good soldiers in that war they were ever going to even release the people who hate us from the debility that is that they're suffering from one of the fathers said when you have somebody treat you badly never attribute it to them attribute it to the demon that has deluded them and loved them that's powerful reality brother I do not pray said Jesus for these alone but also for those who will believe in me through their word that they may all be one as you Father are in me as I am in you that they also may be one in us that the world may believe that you sent me you know whenever we think about that high priestly prayer on the part of our Lord the immediate reaction may be one of denial how realistic is it for us to be unified as opposed to being divided you look at what you alluded to earlier schism 1054 schisms came early and often after the council of chalcedon there was a schism between the Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox and that's hopefully now being healed but there's also a modern-day schism that's taking place in the Orthodox Church I don't know if you want to weigh in on that or not but it's a major religious split the Russian Orthodox Church has cut ties with the ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople and this is being described as one of the great splits and this is the least thing that we can handle right now we should not be involved in schism schism is a scandal and yet schism is a reality once again oh yeah no not only that it this is very normal now I did say very good I didn't say very right but it is very normal throughout history in fact if you want you want to look up the perfect example of irony look at politics throughout the centuries in the church and you'll find all kinds of stuff but I mean it just when I see that I see two things Hank and you know I'm a priest in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America that is under the ecumenical Patriarchate and that certainly means that I am certainly focused in a certain direction towards this situation but regardless just from a dispassionate standpoint I have to step back and I have to look at this and say every time the concept and the discussion of autocephalous ii has ever been raised throughout the history of the church this is exactly what's happened without fail it's always caused turmoil it's and it's because the Orthodox Church is not a church that is based on rules and regulations the canons are there for wisdom and that's wonderful but what we do just like any family we press out how to make this a reality in the in the nitty-gritty and the everyday of living together in communion and sometimes we don't do and when we don't do very well it brings shame and it is a shameful thing for that to happen and yet even though shameful moments are an invitation by the Holy Spirit to look at where we're not strong where we're we're we're ill spiritually and have the spiritual healing applied so I can't call this good by any stretch of the imagination but I can say that this is throughout church history we've seen this happen over and over and over again and the danger is the histrionics the danger is the the loss of sobriety and talking about this this is not going to serve us it's only going to foster more brokenness and more anger and bitterness and more division and that is not God's will never God's will is for us to be one like Jesus Christ in the father er one by Jesus Christ setting in his high priestly prayer that standard for unity Hank he has forever made sure that we humans must constantly be humble enough to throw ourselves on the mercy of Jesus Christ there is no way that me and my wife or by the way that may be another thing we talk about the fact that Orthodox priests can be married if we're married before ordained but regardless in a relationship in my relationship with my children in my relationship in my church family in my relationship in society division and and schism is always a symptom of our spiritual illness we're divided in our own hearts against each other so why are we surprised when this division Carnot's itself in both small ways and now of course in in large ways and the only thing I can praise God give me the humility to love even those who hate me those who misunderstand me those who might misunderstand and speedily heal this fracture and that's exactly what I'm praying now words of wisdom from father Barnabas Powell I have deeply appreciated the fellowship that we've had in different places in the world and very much appreciate you joining me on Hank unplugged I know this has been a terrific discussion in fact I hope we have many more discussions like this in the future I have a list of things I wanted to get to but this was we've gone almost 90 minutes enough to do the Bible Instagram broadcast here pretty soon but no it is an absolute joy to know you it's intoxicating to experience your enthusiasm for the faith once for all delivered to the Saints and may God bless everything you set your hand to I know you're involved in writing you're involved in speaking you have a big parish to take care of you're impacting the world and using your life for God's glory and for the extension of his kingdom and again my appreciation for you knows no bounds it's my honor dear brother and this is a real joy for me because I'm honored and grateful to God and the only thing I asked but just pray for us we appreciate it very much we will pray for you you pray for us and I mean prayer is firing the winning shot and it is as you said one of the sacraments what are the disciplines of the church and oftentimes we give lip service to prayer and we say I'll pray for you it's a much different thing to just say it that actually do it and I will confess that there are times when people ask me to pray for them that I pray immediately because that thinking to forget later on yeah but yeah God brings people into your life and you're certainly one of them and to pray for you as an owner god bless you dear friend and greetings to the family and constant prayers for you and your wonderful ministry as well may your tribe increased your brother thank you Father Barnabas Powell on this edition of the Hank unplug podcast is going to touch the lives of people all around the planet and you can have port and making that happen by going to iTunes giving us a five star rating if you love the podcast and telling other people about the podcast as well do remember our goal is to bring the most interesting inspirational informative people on the planet directly to you I think I delivered on that with dr. Barnabas Powell on today's edition of Hank unplug look forward to seeing you next time with more of the podcast so long for now [Music] [Applause]

Channel: Bible Answer Man

Views: 12,002

Rating: 4.8885794 out of 5

Keywords: Podcast, Apologetics, Hank Unplugged Podcast, Bible Answer Man, Bible, Christian Research Institute, CRI, Hank Hanegraaff, Christ, Christian, Christianity, God, Gospel, Jesus, Scripture, Truth, Barnabas Powell, Orthodoxy, Pentecostal Church, Orthodox Priest, Orthodox on Purpose, Theology, Spiritual Disciplines, Rejecting Rapturemania, Pain, Prosperity Preaching, Early Church Fathers, Confession, Unity, Tribalism

Id: 5JoDw2KU4Zk

Length: 92min 42sec (5562 seconds)

Published: Wed Oct 31 2018