Slavoj Zizek - Israel, Palestine & the Future

[Music] well welcome everyone my name is Matt Dan cona as you've just heard uh and it's fantastic to have this uh Full House and I know many more joining us online um you know it's funny I can't remember an event that I've shared where so many people have asked me about it in advance and expressed real enthusiasm about our speaker but actually it's no surprise because I mean one can go through his academic distinction slavo yek is a international director of The burbeck Institute of humanities senior researcher at the department of philosophy at the University of libyana an eminent scholar at the kungi university soul he's written more than 50 books in many languages as he himself would say blah blah right but I think no resume of his accomplishments um captures the sheer excitement and intellectual power he has brought to the public space all for his um capacity to make ideas of immense erudition and complexity appealing to those who lack his philosophical abilities which is to say pretty much everybody else um so thank you SL it's wonderful to to see you and thank you all for joining us again I in my KB file private I also there is a dossier on you and it's a good one I know he's got a dosier so when we the people take over the trains to gulak will be full you if you behave properly you will not be on them I feel I should I feel I should quit while I'm ahead okay um now we're going to be discussing his new book out this week um too late to awaken what lies ahead and when there is no future which uh contains a paradox which we'll tease out um sa I'll be talking for about 45 minutes and then we'll move on to your questions and I'm to get as many questions as we can because I know everyone is dying to ask him about all sorts of things so let's just Dive In the book begins with a paradox um I think anyway um let me quote it what if the only way to prevent a catastrophe is to assume that it has already happened that we're already five minutes past zero hours explain elaborate where do you find this in my book my God no quite seriously yeah I know no you know what's my idea and uh here I refer to I implore you to read him my good friend an excellent theories of catastrophist Jean Pierre dupu du puu y who circulates between Paris and Santa Cruz I think and his idea is precisely this one and he has although he is a left Winger he proposes even beautiful right-wing successful strategy examples like I remember after the Helsinki agreements in the 7s with Soviet Union signed that it will respect human rights and so on there was a disorder in the west people claiming no we capitulated the Cold War is Over Soviet Union One no it was precisely the opposite it worked that is to say uh some the way to uh what does it mean to accept that the catastrophe already happened it's something sorry I have to go very briefly if I can into some kind of Elementary Theory or philosophy uh every present situation involves includes its own past and its own future and I shamelessly hear quote all the time one line from TS Elliot a conservative who gives the best definition that I know of what a true revolutionary break means he says that uh a really true new work of art doesn't only make a cut with the past he changes redefines the entire past okay I will not get lost here in quoting the old examples of how each Epoch reinvents its own Shakespeare and it's too easy to say no we just project our traumas into it now what if share in his himself was not a fully fixed totality but it was a text open towards the future so that we again there are literally Open Spaces in Shakespeare which means that we are maybe in a much better position than Shakespeare from later time to see what Shakespeare wanted to say or whatever you want so D's idea is for me profoundly heelan one but for some idiots not that uh the future is open in the sense that something happens contingently but once it happens it retroactively creates its own necessity things retroactively become become necessary I will not lose time now in Old examples that I like for example my eternal example is of course love how you fall in love for a series of reasons but you see this reasons only after you already fall in love love is never this type of external comparing I like your sorry for I will try to be abstract I like your hair your smile your legs oh and then let's make a least oh you have three points you only two I fall in love with you no only once you are already in love you fall in once you already the term fall is here crucial it's fall A Cut You retroactively create reasons and I think that today so okay sorry very quickly back to dupi he thinks that uh that uh today we are in such an open situation he thinks that's the key to that cheap paradx it's not simply there are still different options no there are literally different Necessities if we follow the way things are going and also on the first uh uh uh page already I introduced this distinction which works only in French and some other languages not in German not in English between future and aenir a futur is future it's more or less continuation of what goes on if it just goes on the way it is then I think we are lost we need a veneer something a break something new to come otherwise and we can talk about this afterwards for example if you try to think about the ongoing Gaza Israel war in the terms of simple future it can only end in a catastrophe for both sides there are now already clear signs of anti-Semitism exploding of anti- islamism and so on and so on it will be a cast C rophe it may well end in what is an absolute nightmare for me that Jews the great victims of European Holocaust will become for a new third world Young Generation the symbol of Oppression and colonization so that anti-Semitism will become one of the big words of this fake new left so what I'm saying is that the catastrophe happens already means that if we take the existing order the way it is the catastrophe is clearly inscribed into it at the level of uh immigration military conflicts ecology artificial intelligence and so on and so on so I follow here D who claims it's not enough to think in this old Paradigm of oh there is still time five minutes to no we we can make choices no uh the future is already written into Our Fate but we can change Our Fate I think what can save us is a much more radical change you may say now now you are dreaming no I'm not although I what we need is a similar procedure but not what he's doing like you probably all read the big bestseller from David greber who unfortunately died the dawn or whatever I unfortunately don't agree with his idealization of the Inca Empire and so on but he is thinking in the right terms the only way to open a path to a different future is to begin by rewriting the past radically we are within the narrative that we are telling ourselves if we remain within this narrative we are lost and not to take too much time I'm sorry here I also am beginning to get critical of Marx himself I think to put it in very brutal terms that for Marx very brutally I developed this in some of my old books uh communism is comes too close to capitalism without Capital without capitalism he thinks he still thinks in this term of capitalist self Prof Pro propelling Dynamics he just think that we are now at a stage where if we abolish Capital order we will get capitalist Dynamics at its pest I don't agree with this but at the same time and that's my the difficulty I disagree with my you should read him good friend and very in intelligent guy K Saito the Japanese echos socialist who the title of his last book slow down says it all I don't think this is the solution he simply think you know take it it easier step out into this permanent self Dynamic Self exploration we have really to to make not so much a revolution in the sense of killing millions or whatever you know but uh revolution in the sense of changing rewriting the entire uh past let me give you an example here and then I will stop uh uh uh I don't mean uh uh I mean imagine a world it's quite possible where in a worldwide catastrophe Europe loses and uh then an another narrative emerges and please don't misund understand me here I am very open towards the Palestinian suffering and so on but in this narrative which is I think a false anti-colonial narrative Holocaust becomes a minor Europe you remember that obscene debate a year or two ago between some anti postcolonialist and some focus on Holocaust where one side said Holocaust is the absolute crime don't even compare it with colonialism the other side says no Holocaust is a minor European Story the true horror is colonialism I think the moment we think in these terms we are lost both are in their own way incomparable Horrors we should avoid this when you you know sometimes as a rule opposites or what appear as opposites can all be terrifyingly brutally wrong this is why to go to the topic which we will leave to the end generally you know what I really hate is the logic of and you hear it on both sides some leftists say yeah yeah maybe Palestinians are some Palestinians a little bit anti-semitic but look what Israel is doing to them they have a right to be on the other hand some zionists are saying look yes it's not nice what Israel is doing there but think about Holocaust it's practically Justified my claim is that the moment you accept this logic you've sold your soul to the devil if we don't accept that fighting anti-Semitism and fighting for not Hamas but let's call it dignified life for West Bank Palestinians must be part of the same struggle the moment you think about this in the term of the choices you know it's over so again back to this point I think that uh you know this wonderful metaphor of wter Benjamin and I love him why because a couple of years ago there was some anniversary of Benjamin and with some friends of mine I collaborated and organized this was a wonderful event a colloquium on wter Benjamin a Jewish thing in ramala West Bank and it was a miracle you know Palestinians Israelis others debating wter benam said something wonderful he said that a new work of art is sometimes like a film a shot on a film for which the developing chemical has not yet been invented and you see I didn't lose my threat immediately back and then I stopped I said I think now for the fourth or fifth time and then I stopped no yeah and that uh this is our moment today imagine that a new post European culture will emerge in which Holocaust will effectively be limited to yes some bad things happen there who cares we want the anti-colonial stru and so on and so on and so on here to provoke you I'm very sorry but today precisely when everybody likes to on Europe I'm more and more becoming Pro European yes I'm aware of all the horrors that Europe did colonialism and so on but name me a better or even another serious conceptual apparatus to criticize precisely what went wrong in Europe which is not already embedded in European Legacy of Enlightenment it has an autocorrect facility it has an auto and it's quite unique in this I think let's um ask another big question uh you talk a lot in the book about war communism yeah as a binding concept this is a tough one though I know well uh you did ask me to be Stalin so absolutely um comrade so what uh what is war communism uh something very simple I think and we may disagree people usually yes react in a much more rude way than you did kindly they say are you crazy what do you mean by this and I tell them very simply that's the next question sorry yes I see think that we in Western Europe and up to a point United States incidentally United States is a true cancer today what is going on with United States is that uh you know I'm here uh communist conservative in it's not Madness in the sense that the base of Our Lives should be or our social life somee Elementary social P of Unwritten rules how we decently treat each other and for me the symptom Al Point much worse than Trump I'm such a pessimist about United States that I'm almost tempted to say maybe if guys like the santis but he is now happily F three points off but this new guy Mike Johnson oh yes if guys like this win we will have Nostalgia for Trump I'm telling you bring back Trump sorry bring back Trump yeah because you know he is if you read not just what he says but the implicit Unwritten presuppositions of what he's he's openly against democracy his message is theocracy yes it's horror so what I'm saying is that in uh uh in this uh in this situation we are confronting troubles which troubles ecology where I'm also not the shortterm pessimist I'm well aware how science is uncertain here you know for example I'm old enough I remember 40 years ago around a big Topic in Germany was V Stan the dying of forest and there were predictions at that point 2000 2020 there will be no forests in Europe and so on so they are making many mistakes and I agree with those who say also don't Focus too much on up on global warming Sun the true wor should perhaps be down in oceans what is coming but I think that uh we are approaching not a singular catastrophe but uh some kind of a generalized disorder what do I mean by this I read a very intelligent analysis where they claim we have a too Optimist idea of global warming we think okay temperatures will will go up for four five degrees and then it will be tougher maybe this part of London will be already underwater the idea is that HST that up there by land there if you have money that it will be the new Coast very ni that but what I'm saying is that it's like tougher for us but nonetheless a new stability many scientists are claiming something much more dangerous what if and there are natural processes which are organized like this what if there will not be a new stability but imagine a new weather pattern where there will simply be sometime no summer than summer for a longer time chaotic weather and so on we have this we have artificial intelligence and I don't share the common stupid fears about it they are way too optimistic you know either we will become part of the machine or the one where I become defender of death penalty you know the idiots these new age Singularity idiots who claim we will murder with uh the the new Singularity of intelligence we will directly become unified with God and so on no it's practically the I I have great respect for India just don't mention me the name baladita because you saw the movie uh sorry I'm repeating myself but did you see the movie Oppenheimer you remember at the beginning when Oppenheimer is screwing Florence Pew the you remember that she asked him or I forgot to read babad Gita and some ask him she she she takes the book off the shelf and says read it yeah but I the usual then Indians Hindus there exploded dirty thing like sex they spoiled it with the most sacred book my opinion is the opposite one beautiful Act of sex and they spoiled it with one of the nastiest books that you can imagine a book which I'm repeating this all the time here which do you know that this was Henry himler sacred book Henry himler the Nazi asked himself how can we assess do the horrible thing we have to do for Germany kill all the Jews children women and remain decent his answer was babad Gita this lesson of how don't get identified with your acts but act with the I think this is all good material for Christopher Nolan for the director's cut isn't it really I mean he needs to cut the scene out by the sound it really I know I know I know yeah yeah I have okay let's not get lost in can I my favorite Christopher Noland is prestige did you see that one about that's a brilliant film that's a brilliant one no but okay just I will finish directly I think we have a whole series of what d calls fixed point if things go on like they go on we are approaching some kind of catastrophic point and to confront this properly we will need when I say War communism I don't mean happy communist affluence I mean something pretty pessimistic I think that without any Penning we should prepare for new modes of emergency State what if there is a global disaster here a civil war there how to react not in a panic but to prevent the horrible possibility that the fascists will do it for us the fascists are always good at using this situation so this is all I mean and when people ask me but you must be crazy this cannot happen I told them well when even Trump was forced to do this you know what I mean by War communism Trump not my favorite guy but uh uh remember what he had to do during the epidemic every family got a check for $2,000 and so on and so on this was Communist measure in the simple sense that a concern for welfare of the being uh uh uh let even Donald Trump to do things which C violate all the market rules and the result should be very interesting for us if we still are some kind of leftists the result is that how false are those uh standard predictions you know oh if you do this or that if you raise taxes a little bit there will be an economical catastrophe ropes no incredible things happened and there was no economic catastrophe this gives me hope we can we can afford measures which are from the ruling Market ideology a catastrophe and we can survive it and uh so this is what I mean simply by War communism no panic but we have to prepare for extraordinary circumstances even Trump did another thing sorry which was done under Rosevelt you know this idea that when there is an urgency for example during World War I Frankl FDR Frank Rell didn't just leave it to the market he ordered certain industries produce this that the result was not a catastrophe you know that only the world war to really pull United States out of the crisis late 30s it was still crisis I'm I'm not saying we need a new world war but what I am saying is that uh there will be new emergency States and we should prepare to deal with them in an open transparent way but in the spirit of global solidarity because and I'm not don't mean this in an empty way I think that the horror of what is going today is that some third world countries are taking from Europe precisely the worst part of European Legacy which is strong ethnically based nation state that's how I read Solly even as far as I know China today why are they screwing up Ur Tibetans it's clearly the day the more they claim they are against eurocentric domination they are copying following the European nation state model it's the same in India what Modi is doing it's the same in turkey with erogan never forget this in the last centuries Turkish Empire whatever is what Sultan was relatively very decentralized and the ones who did all the horrors you remember the Armenian Genocide it was The Young Turks who wanted to modernize turkey along the lines of the European nation state so all I mean by War communism it's let's get ready in an organized way for new unpredictable but we know where they will come from emergency States so so one of the things that you say in the book and I know you you've talked about a little bit before you're deeply sympathetic to the social justice movements we've seen in the last 10 years or so you have great sympathy for their ideals but you think that they are a distraction from the bigger project which you you talk about uh the problem is we don't have enough globalization we don't have enough uh change in our socio and economic and and so um what what the right call woker uh a term I don't like but that's what they call it is in is in your view a a distraction is that correct yeah but not but let me be very precise here I'm not saying that the struggle for gay rights and feminine female rights or whatever you call them is in itself a destruction I'm criticizing the specific way it is uh it is practice AO uh globalization you know the cast ropy today I think it's not globalization is that it's globalization which my conservative friend but he's not an idiot the German philosopher Peter slaughtery he put it very nicely he said that we live in a globe which is isolated it's just from inside you don't see you don't see the limit it's like transparent glass we don't even perceive the those who are outside and why am I for globalization uh the the left was right traditional social democracy although it's the best thing probably that we had no longer fully Works uh so-called really existing socialism no longer really works now there are guys I'm sympathetic towards them although one of them uh no chsky really hates me which always shocks me I have nothing against him but you know they they are secretly or more and more openly Neo anarchists they said no States screw everything up we need gradual unification from low low level initiatives I always I'm sorry if you know it evoke another example here you remember some of you maybe know this example of mine was it uh two years and a half ago I think the great summer heat in uh north northern California southern part of western Canada Seattle Vancouver for a couple of weeks temperatures there were around 50° celi it was warmer there than in Mumbai and Arab Emirates now there the approach has to be Global you cannot blame them these are rich part who followed all the usual ecological rules the problem is not not what they were doing the problem is that the global the distence in the global circulation of air around the Northern Hemisphere produced that effect even to approach the problem we have to have a global approach we need globalization and here capitalism is strong I don't have any Illusions about Biden incidentally I have friends who have friends who have friends who are in the white house and I learned you know why Biden reacted the way he did it was not nice uh because Jews will will pay the price a propo Israeli War he thought I'm perceived as senile weak and so on so let me appear a strong guy Warrior and let's get Jews on my side I think this will lead to a catastrophe but what I want to say is that nonetheless for example one of the first so you will not say that I'm not a realist economic measures which were debated but of course nothing came out of it and the Finance Minister I don't know how she's called officially of uh of Biden Janet Yellen yes proposed the key is some kind of global profit you know to prevent this the C if the interest rates are higher here or profit rates and so on quite pragmatic measures like this which could be done so again the key is not one big world government that would be would you agree unimaginable corruption unfortunately no but some kind of unification not just this pathetic unification you know like oh we are all one Humanity this sounds like this disgusting when I was young there was to publish UNICEF books about human culture it would upset Jordan Peterson which has that on its side Sor it would upset Jordan Peterson who I know feels very strongly about One World Government so there's that going for it yeah but uh you know what uh here is another one you know what happens with Peterson I'm proud to say you debated him while I debated him he privately to me then considered defeat no and then he was in a deep cry and then I don't know what we're doing he's in a deep 45 year long crisis he's been in a crisis for 45 years I mean yeah but but uh yes yes he really e only only red meat half Ro and so on all that Madness but the point is that at that point with debate after me about with me he still I think at least Drew attention to some correct problems like I liked his point against this perception of self victimization I don't think the strategy of those who are exploited corrupted and so on should be you know know this competition of victims who is more victim and so on and so on on the opposite the lower classes should adopt a much more active uh active self asserting stance and so on and so on then he was for some time into in a crisis and now he emerged as something that I must say I no longer follow yes like he said that for this I hope we make a pet here you are whatever you are a Jew but I don't know where you stand religiously I am an atheist Christian and I hope we both agree when he said God appeared to me and I was I was talking with God yeah for me Good Luck Good Lu for life you know why because the great thing about Je Jewish and Christian tradition is that's why you have already in Judaism iconoclasm it's not this mysticism of no God is beyond we don't no it means don't build paintings of God but in your activity actualize God God is in how you deal with others that's the lesson of Christianity for me also that's why I call it materialist religion you remember when uh some idiot one of those I don't know who Apostles asked Christ but how will we know that you will return and Christ answers very clearly when there will be love between two of you I will be there so in this sense I claim provocatively that Holy Spirit what Christians call Holy Spirit is sorry for provocation the first known form in humanity of of a Communist party I love it you you know what I mean by this a form of social solidarity where uh hierarchic status and so on doesn't matter matter this is why so that you will not think I'm crazy I think that the entire history of Christianity is one big struggle against the emancipatory core of its own legacy just and then I will stop my favorite example here that I quote often you know when Napoleon was crowned and he took out of Pope's hand the crown and put it on his own head and it's apocryphal but it's how do Italians say keep the legend yeah yeah the pope told him I know sire what you want to destroy Christianity believe me we the church are trying to do this for 2,000 years and we didn't succeed I want to I want to before we move to questions I want to ask you there was one sentence in in the book that just really leapt off the page and it's about mobilization and you say I'm quoting it's not enough to tell the truth one has to tell it in a way that mobilizes people to act on it not to indulge in self-righteous satisfaction I mean that's something to have tattooed on my back I I mean I'm I'm more there but how do you know that you have a tattoo do you look I want others to see it I mean didn't I come on no no no you know what I was thinking here I'm so sad we don't have enough time we have to play these stupid Democratic games people there asking questions but it was this devil who is giving us signals here it's comrade Stalin comrade Stalin yeah yeah no no seriously you know what makes me a pessimist today I developed this in this book he really doesn't like it does it it's the Q&A it's bugging him yeah no seriously very briefly uh already Peter slauter who is very complex person I learn many things from him developed in his book which is now almost 40 years even more old his first mega bestseller critique of cynical reason he wonderfully turns around Marx saying that it's not as Marx says they don't know it but they are doing it he says today's formula is we know what we are doing but nonetheless we are doing it that today we live in such cynical times that it's not only that no matter what you say the dominant capitalist system reproduces itself is that as it were it needs permanent self critique to reproduce itself what do you mean by this a marginal example that I mentioned there I hate if I were to be a comrad Stalin dictator the first thing I would have done is to prohibit this big banales Venice CLE and so on if you look at their programmatic notes it's always we are manipulated by big Capital Africa Asia resist and so on but precisely as such they fit perfectly the financial Machinery of Global Market you know the very radical critique of commercialization of Art and so on is is part of it so that's I think the problem today how to it's not so much the truth or the British example that I like that is to say hate I like how I hated it you remember three years ago when in Glasgow there was the B against C cop 26 I think it was even no I'm talking about climate climate climate yeah and you're at that point still Prince now King Charles was there doing everything all that matter 5 minutes to 12 we have to do and absolutely practically nothing came out of it and I'm here even more a pessimist you heard what I'm not just saying no matter what you say it the catastrophe will happen I'm saying the way we criticize the system is part of the system itself and I don't know here clearly what to do I have just a couple of ideas provocative trigger warning or how to say now one would be this one my God I'm tired and the left should maybe learn a little bit about from this uh isn't it clear that today with the way the new populist right is functioning the uh this idea of you know hundreds of thousands of people on the street uh uh uh penetrating the seat of power is appropriated by the new right postmodern cynicism uh cynical distance they do it so my idea don't kill me is this one uh that's why I don't know where he is now I like pretty much a person like Bernie Sanders because the shortest way to describe him to confront Bernie Sanders and uh uh uh Donald Trump if there ever was a postmodern president precisely in this caricatural right-wing way the guy who is cynical doesn't have any Christian values and so on Donald Trump is a pure postmodern relativist not and if there ever was a person who don't laugh please who embodies uh silent majority with its uh simple Ordinary People moral decency and so on it's Bernie Sanders there is nothing keeply subversive about him doesn't play these games and this I think is why a certain discourse of resistance public violence and so on fits perfectly uh the system today maybe the left should turn out turn around the story and say Law and Order yes please because sorry you new populist you are the ones who are the threat to the true threat to Law and Order and so on and so on I mean that was uh that was my point there pretty good point um right we're going to move to Q&A and I have a uh kickoff uh how to Academy ran an online competition to ask the first question and how much do you got paid did you the winner pay you no no not enough um and the question is what are your thoughts on the current situ situation in Israel and Gaza okay okay I I said and wrote enough about it and it got me in trouble with all sides you know because uh you know Frank yeah first yeah in Frankfurt first uh why I do in contrast to many leftists you can then attack me if you want what why I do unconditionally condemn is this a question or I no sorry just why I do unconditionally condemn Hamas is that you know this may be a surprising detail for you but I don't know directly people who were massacred there in the south in that kibo ra party but I know people who knew them you know that this was the most open part of the Israelis they were in constant contact with Gaza helping them so the the message to put it like this of the Hamas attack was not simply kill Israelis but was a war whose aim was to eternalize war to kill to kill the very thought the very possibility of long-term peace and especially another moment here do you remember what went on in Israel a couple of months ago this tremendous social movement yes yes for a secular Israeli State against religious fundamentalist and so on now not quite there are already signs of regist but that is over so this brought the wrath of some Zionist on me because without I never said they are all the same what I simply said is this Hamas is a horrible thing and their guy hania said something horrible at the beginning of this war first second day he said my message to Jews is all that Land Is Ours F three points off go out no place for you but then you know you have statements from this ongoing Israeli government which in a slightly more polite way is saying a similar thing it's not the same it says Israel is exclusively the state of the Jews we have all that land is ours and so on and so one what I am afraid is that on both Sid this logic will prevail so I am not and my true horror here and I'm afraid that Je will pay the price if uh for example I always mention this just Google him how can a country like Israel have a minister for Social Security whatever who is itamar benu a guy who was 20 years ago condemned by the Israeli court itself as a potential terrorist and racist this guy is now running uh security so I'm not establishing I'm not crazy any parallel and so on I said destroy Hamas I never said destroy Israel you said destroy Hamas often actually in that speech yeah but nonetheless you know what shocked me a little bit the more I say this the more I'm accused of I don't know how from some deep Herman ations that my true message is nonetheless that I'm Pro Hamas you know yes am I I'm not I'm not crazy my God I mean uh we try to organize also apart from Benjamin a conference in Janine with my Jewish friends and that big uh Jewish Palestinian actor and cultural Juliano mer kamis uh conference on movies it was the Palestinian hardliners who shot him there on the street it was too much this culture Cal collaboration and so on what I am just saying I hope this is not too much is that people claim I'm relativizing what Hamas did in the south of Israel no uh contextualizing something doesn't mean to relativize it it means to see the ground out of which a think like this was possible to emerge I give you another example maybe you read it in some of my text recent reactions of course Hitler has to be contextualized but this doesn't redeem him in any way it's clear that Nazi anti-Semitism could have emerged in a very specific situation after World War I the so experienced humiliation of Germany Versa pieace economic crisis and so on and so on this in no way means Hitler was partially Justified it just means analyze the ground out explanation is not excuse absolutely not it is still absolute evil what Hitler did and all I'm saying is that in the long term the only way to a lasting peace in the Middle East East and I quoting here yal Harari my God he said nicely that in the land which is their Homeland he admits this Harari he means the land which is now controlled by Israel we should allow Palestinians to live in peace to lead a free dignified life with I agree with him all this guarantees against threats and so on and so on and it was a little bit of a bad mistake bad feeling for me surprised that uh I was attacked from both sides one side people probably close to Hamas don't you see that Hamas is really a anti-colonial movement and then on the other hand uh Zionist that I'm relativizing it no again contextualization is not a relativization it is still absolute evil if I may use this term no but absolute evil emerges at precise points of History that's all I'm saying my true fear here is that this war will trigger a new wave of anti-Semitism in Europe which will then put a gentle pressure on Jews to move if Israel will win but I'm not sure there and I remember the reaction some 10 years or five ago maybe you know better Netanyahu called uh invited French Jews because there are some anti-i please come to Israel the immediate reaction of the French right was yeah yeah yeah follow Netanyahu just go there no I think with with all my sympathy for Palestinians that uh there would have been no European Enlightenment without Jew because Enlightenment means you think beyond your ethnic identity you are open to some kind of uh uh relativization but this time in a good sense you know where Enlightenment begins when deart good guy I don't buy this about the cart uh male sist uh do you know that the cart triggered among Rich ladies there was no other public there a great feminist movement not just Queen Christina from Scotland many others they said kogito has no sex we are finally equal with men and uh this is a wonderful moment when I don't know which one discourse of method or the other book the card says that first as a young kid when he met people from other cultures he found their habits uh strange then he asked himself my God but what if in their eyes eyes our own Customs are also strange and weird that's where it all begins and this wouldn't have taken place without Bru so what I'm saying is please remain here the the the anti-semitic strategy today tends to be Zionist which means we love Jews but if you are there don't be here no Jews are the ones who kind of you know it's like salt pepper or what who who uh uh bring uh diversity a disant voice without which there is no progress I mean so uh this is where things made me a pessimist maybe maybe there is a hope that out of this Carnage there are already voices in Israel and also I'm a great friend of Palestinians don't underestimate them did you read a small note in the newspapers that when Mahmud abas the chief of p p said about a month and a half ago some very stupid thing which was yeah ju uh they deserved Holocaust because they were dealing too much with finances profiting well a few I would say yes they were why because they were prohibited to own land exactly yeah and so but immediately over 100 Palestinian intellectuals philosophers Palestinian from the West Bank and Israel to United States immediately published a letter condemning uh uh abas claiming sorry this is not our struggle we are not anti-semites and so on on the other hand there is hope that more and more Israelis will see this basic thing that Yu Harari said as long as the I don't like the term Palestinian question because it's uh patronizing it's the same for the same reason that many feminists don't like the term woman's question you know as if oh yeah it can wait after the revolution we will then solve the woman's question you know that's why I like to praise a Muslim country Iran not the elite you know what they did a couple of months ago or even more now with that women demonstrating this is what we need in the west against that uh Kurdish girl kill a mega all national movement and in the focus of it was woman's struggle but they caught all Muslims uh men and so on that's what we need and they did it so I always waiting for miracles not Divine Miracles but miracles in the sense that that who knows maybe out of all this Mega people with example say sorry are we getting crazy this doesn't lead anywhere let's get what I quoted at the beginning a different aenir we have to re aenir excellent now in the interest of making what remains of our a can I ask you you something see I was going for the what would you yeah I'm anti-semitic I know I know that how how would you answer to this where do you see the solution I I'm very open here I'm not blacking I am I am what middle e I'm what I'm what uh uh trolls call safado trash which is um lovingly which is that my family many generations ago were Jewish and uh then they converted in the 15th century so I haven't been Jewish for quite a while but I'm I'm that said I'm a phos seite so um I like what I hear from you you know because you know what I will tell you I always repeat it's also another crucial Story the main tragedy of European modernity I repeat this all the time is that when you said my Ur back family converted till French Revolution the problem with Jews for anti-semites was the one of conversion they converted but should we believe them do they still secretly no now you're talking no I'm not but with the with the 19th century when Napoleon whatever bad things you think about him I do gave Jews to the Jews the full civil rights and so on you know anti and this is the Dark Side of modernity anti-Semitism turned much darker potentially violent the problem was not any longer to convert the Jews they were a priori condemned as if their degeneration is in their very gen nature so openly you find this in Wagner and it others although in Wagner it was in a much more noble way they detected a secret longing for suicide in the Jewish soul and they claimed like anihilation although a noble anihilation and so on you know and I think that uh uh this this is the dark Paradox that at the very point after the French Revolution when it looked that anti-Semitism is at least at the formal state level over it emerged reemerged in a much darker Way by this I mean no way out to Jews even if you convert we will not trust you it's it's in your blood so uh I am don't even dare to think what will happen I know many hundreds of Palestinians I can tell you something if there is part of the Arab world which is definitely not in its majority anti-semitic it's Palestine go to ramala I found there I didn't enter it I'm normal heterosexual bad joke but I found there a gay club I found there constant debates between Jewish Palestinians if I were to move to Israel I would move to kifah Haifa is the most open City with clubs where palestin I mean pal Israeli Palestinians and Jews meet so uh it is possible Miracles are possible what makes me afraid is that not only Israel other Arab countries are playing dirty games by on purpose uh keeping alive or like keeping Palestinians in a state so anti-Semitism is from then a way to avoid their own inconsistencies and so on and here I'm so critical and people think I'm against immigrants no on the contrary for example Saudi Arabia a wealthy country kuite Dubai and so on I'm not talking now only about Palestinians but refugees from Syria Afghanistan whenever why don't these do do these rich countries not accept any immigrants it's strictly controlled they only accept workers on on a very limited base did you read that was the true scandal did you read two three months ago how they discovered that on the border with Yemen Saudi Arabia have special helicopter units guns bombs they simply kill all the refugees from Ethiopia from Africa Muslim refugees who try to enter Saudi Arabia so for the Arabs I also think that they use in a different way but nonetheless structurally similar to the uh uh European way uh they play the card of Palestinians and Jews to cover up their own antagonisms and so on they are all playing very dirty games there to give you the last proof I need to bring some of the question yeah yeah sorry okay um what I'm going to do is I'm going to take four questions two um there's uh person there hold on wait for the microphone and and we'll take four so could you hear me all right yeah yep so as we all know that KL marks was born in a Jewish Family and um he wrote A Few articles on the Jewish people so do you have any comments or concerns on car Mark Jewish identity and background okay wait uh and then and then just here just here and other questions up up on the balcony yes just there afterwards yes please hello um you mentioned that the prestige is your favorite film I noticed that Noland yeah yeah yeah and it's uh it's David Bowie who plays Nicola Tesla in it yeah you mentioned how David Boe plays Tesla yeah and you haven't spoken much about the Balkans yet and I the Balkans the Balkans Yugoslav former Yugoslavia and that's somewhere I would argue that really needs to think about how it radically refs it past to move forward so how does it do it okay and then is there thank you than although you know because uh practically all people hear just this dirty joke this is always allow don't understand our language you know I'm sorry you're not closer to me physically because what I like to do is if I have somebody who speak some language that sorry okay sorry I stopped okay please go on um thank you so uh I'm from Siberia uh offspring of good people and uh survived once and uh I was talking to my mom today trying to refresh the philosophy of 20th century thinking okay we do really sit on the drama and process drama a lot in the 20th century philosophy and in 21st century I guess we do need some heroism and some personal heroism and what that would be what do you think who is the Contemporary hero of today okay and one more from up the balcony is there a y is there one there okay and one from down here then yes just there just there ready with the white L hi hello I have a question so as an individual so uh um as you as you just said um maybe as Government they we they still have some options to deal with today's um uh emergencies or something but as individuals should we still insist our paion to some um disciplines to disciplines of humanities like philosophies art and also like some other disciplines and also another question is still as an individual when we saw this so many overwhelmed realities uh should we like sometimes it's kind kind of like a conflict like we will feel painful we will have sympathies toward those uh another people who suffer from suffer from Wars or something but we can do nothing about that so do you have any opinions about that I thought I didn't get I think I think if I understood you correctly your point was that uh we we need interdisciplinary approaches and also that it's very hard to understand and empathize with other people in contemporary context is that correct would that be a fair summation do you mean the first question well both but oh sorry for that sorry I'm could your py treat me please I don't mean with with irony as an idiot could you put it in very clear simple way because I missed the I will make it brief so so as individuals today we cannot we have very less power to to change anything actually the reality so can we should we still insist our some original passion towards some disciplines like philosophy and arts and how this disciplines can still have some effect toward our reality right now okay I get it now thank you very much okay so uh uh rattling through uh marks and jewishness the Balkans yeah 21st century Heroes and whether individuals can use their um access to philosophy and other disciplines to um maximize their power go okay that's what I like now you're are true comrade Stalin sorry uh no first marks now my answer may surprise you I was still when I was young under socialism trained in Marxism we had a very good professor who knew Hegel and Marx very well and already at that point I don't think this is marks at his best his early text on the Jewish question his idea is simply that juice with as Marx describes them in almost anti-semitic cliche terms the Jews are obsessed by rituals even I think this is Marx example how they eat how they everything should be regulated and so on that they the pure embodiment of the capitalist logic so the only way to solve the Jewish question is to abolish capitalism and what is not clear with Marx is again I hope you know the text this early one on the Jewish question I think tudan frag when he is describing Jews like this it's not clear is he consciously describing a cliche or does he mean Jews are really like that I I I uh I have problems with that marks or to go even a step further when I was young the big passion was the young marks alienation and all that on the contrary I think this is the worst marks if you look at the roots for stalinism it's in the young marks I think there are two great Marxist Corpus texts one is his analysis of 48 Revolution 18th bremier of Louis bonapart and so on and the other is the entire complex of uh uh the critique of political economy The crucial moment for Marx was the failure of the 48 Revolution and then he did what all decent later Marxist do what Lenin did after outbreak of World War I you go to Switzerland and you start reading Hegel Marx did precisely this in early 50s and all good things I think came from uh uh uh came from that what I on the other hand don't accept is this rightwing idea which I found disgusting that uh communism is from the very beginning anti-semitic are they crazy look at the early Soviet Union first years under Lenin not what democracy it was but look at the guys eight 10 guys police Bureau who really run things the majority of them were Jews look now I will say something very provocative but I like it look at you know KGB was first called Czech the early you know that there were 25% of Jews in first generation ccha 20% of Lithuania lva Baltic Nations and a minority of Russians I don't mean this as a criticism I mean that uh that you can precisely locate at the level of anti-Semitism when comrad Stalin who is turning on and off lights entered the game the left became anti-semitic more and more explicitly with uh stalinism that's why I don't accept the claim that uh that uh that there is anti-Semitic left of course there are leftist who are obviously at least in a half covered by anti-semitic but I think we should read this absolutely as a symptom of the fact that there is something deeply wrong with that left look at Hugo Chavez he made when things started to go wrong in Venezuela towards a couple of more or less openly anti I statement and none other than Fidel Castro corrected him public said don't talk about this you shouldn't and so on so again anti-Semitism is always a sign that the leftist project turned uh wrong now uh uh ban it's so okay I will not repeat it here because it's everywhere on YouTube I think my old joke but I will briefly condense it you know what me coming from there it's incredible how difficult it is to even locate where is the dividing line for us in Slovenia it's clear we are still Central Europe with Croatia balcan begins you talk to a Croatian who will say we are Europe Catholics with Serbia Balkan begins many servs are telling me we are still civilization Al iians down there are the true balcan but it goes in the other direction for austrians we are balcan because we are slaves for Germans austrians are already balcan Empire and so on for the French German with their dark Barbarian past are and for you British I like this all of Continental Europe is Balan and and Brussels is the new Constantinople you know so what my problem and this brought me great problems is a certain fake folklore of balcan as a crazy part of the world where people just have sex dance drink shoot at each other I think this is the Western cliche of Balan and my problem with very good director in his movies Amir korita his Underground ground and so on it's not that he is too balcanes but that he tried to make his career on giving to the West what it wants to see in Balan a crazy land where people are irrational kill each other and so on and so on so uh uh my I I think that uh the danger is not just this central European one where we project or Western our traumas into Balan my good friend Maden doar a philosopher paraphrased laong unconscious is structured like language his formula was European unconscious is structured like Balan you that Europe projects all its repressed dark ideological aspect onto balcan uh my uh my uh this is why uh when there was a Civil War in Yugoslavia Yugoslavia falling apart I hated Western enlightened people who asked me you come from there give us the psychoanalysis what is going on in balcan my answer was always the same sorry we from Balan are quite normal people the only idiots who don't have it is you in the Western Europe you need psychoanalysis not us and for me this is the tragedy for example of Serbia they did horrible thing under milosevich but at the same time my God Serbia I'm the first to admit was has the greatest democratic tradition of all EX Yugoslav Nations already when they overthrew the previous Dynasty obrenovic and uh and uh this korich took over they had a very strong Social Democratic party they had Progressive Constitution and so on and so on so I'm totally opposed to this myth which was alive in early '90s while the war went on you know Balan is a complex area to understand it you have to know 500 or thousand years of history no absolutely not the explosion of nationalisms could be explained not totally but to a good part in a much simpler way the big problem and here is what milosevich got it right but others were doing already is uh socialism was disintegrating the ruling it's not bureaucracy nomenclatura let's call it knew it's approaching its end and the problem was how to reinvent itself to survive the fall of socialism the answer was nationalism to transform itself into Advocates of national interests and so on and so on let me not lose too much time let me go on to Heroes today 21st century Heroes sorry 21st century Heroes uh I agree with you first on one maybe paradoxical point I believe in the necessity of Heroes even heroes even leaders because I'm not an optimist about sorry to use this term human nature I think precisely when we think that we are free in our consumerist stupid daily life we are just lazy we follow our desires we are not ready to sacrif rice ourself and so on and there is something like an emancipatory leader okay to use the usual example of of course he has his limits Mandela Mandela was not the message of Mandela was not the stalinist one I know better than you what is really good for you it was a simple Obama used the same term but he misused it you can the message of a leader is no you are not screwed up limited to your stupid particular Destiny you can reach Beyond it so I think that this type of emancipatory leader the leader whose message is yes you can reinvent yourself and so on are needed today more than ever let me finish with two names he's a modest guy but I need to mention him again and again all these stupid Wars Ukraine uh Israel you know that a s is still there 10 miles from here 23 hours per day alone he is allowed one walk only with guard not meeting with others there is still no accusation formally against him it's a nightmare and you know when he got married he wasn't even allowed to meet physically Stella Morris it was a glass wall between them you know what happened I was told because I wasn't able to attend it in the Next Room some serial killer a well-known mobster was celebrating birthday with 40 people invited all mingling there and that's with aons what I like about aons is not it's not it's much more refined I've written about it it's not simply they he made us see something we all knew that the dirty things but he prevented us from ignoring it we cannot pretend that we didn't know it because many liberals that I know had this hypocritical logic yeah yeah the state has to do some torture here dirty thing there but let's gently ignore it criticize it a little bit publicly but and so on and this is the role of aan the second role even more important I think is his book about uh Google where he shows up how deeply connected this new digital Mega companies Google and so on are with are with uh American secret services and so on and so on that it's the same informational complex so it's not just abstract artificial intelligence look at it concretely how for example Google is connected with American secret services and so on and so on how we already are controlled so he would be one hero the other hero that I mentioned in my speech if I were to choose one absolute hero of the 20th century I'm sorry if you already know this name it's please Google him uh M Edelman a polish jew who it's incredible story first he was a Buddhist more socialist Jew he was a key figure second in command of the ghetto Uprising then he survived it he was one of the leading persons in warso Uprising he survived his state in Poland with a beautiful metaphysical justification when anti-Semitism was reinvented by communist he said I don't have anything great to say I feel like a stone in aitz I'm just there somebody has to be here saying nothing just to be there then he played a crucial role in uh solidos negotiations and when when there was the first intifada he wrote an open letter to my Palestinian friends where he says my God this Stalin is a guys he having a difficult mind who and there he says I support your struggle if it remains nonviolent but I am with you a very moderate beautiful stance these people are my uh Heroes and I don't think don't I don't believe too much this idea everything is manip manipulated we don't control everything no the those those in power are still afraid of people saying too much you know otherwise people like aong they wouldn't be effectively so uh terrorized so no we are not simply uh powerless the last thing about that uh uh uh uh discipline and so what can individuals do that's sorry that was the question what can individuals who feel powerless do should they go to dis should they take refuge in you know what's the problem today I will point at this Paradox you know that on the one hand we perceive our situation as powerless totally manipulated you don't control anything but at the same time the ruling the honic ideology today is elevating us into free individuals in the sense of for example the most disgusting ideology today for me is the ideology which sustains precarious work it's very nice message between the lines it is precarious workers are really like small capitalists we are all capitalists you have a little bit of money and you can freely decide do you go to a holiday do you invest in your health or you buy a car and are Uber driver or whatever so did you notice that's the par how at the same time with this idea system dominates us is the idea that everything everything that we are ultimately radically responsible for ourselves we have this attitude of you know make an effort individually do it you can do it so uh the thing I would have done here is to precisely turn this around in the sense of yes we are most enslaved to the system precisely when we perceive ourself as free consumerist individuals you know you buy a cake whatever you want you go here you go there this apparent freedom and don't be afraid I'm not comrad Stalin I'm not opposing formal freedom to real freedom freedom must always be formal marks knew it but what I want to say is that uh this type of Freedom which is based on the model of uh you know as if big life decisions are decisions like you go to a p three and is it strawberry cake or cheesecake no no there are much more radical decisions the true decisions are where with all pathetics where you choose yourself what you are you don't just choose objects or even other persons you choose your own identity and here a true change has to begin and that's why I think that the first step out of this predominance uh domination of the anonymous system is to see how how fake your individual freedom is not in the sense of I'm totally manipulated but in a much more radical sense that you are totally manipulated precisely when you think you are free like what is most more free than just seting on the web you go from this pornographic site to another site or whatever at that point you are completely enslaved and I accept this paradox to the end I will now sound a totalitarian I know there is no freedom without strong self discipline freedom is not relaxation for me freedom is Duty can't s this the philosopher not the dirty word old philosophical joke sorry I love Itor can we end on a dirty word I love that so much um ladies and gentlemen we've overrun uh thank you for for staying I'm sorry I didn't get to more of you but I I think you'll agree that it was every word say was fascinating no I grateful to you and I'm just and he will be signing copies of His Brilliant book uh so you can go and uh and and and meet him and get him to sign uh and uh I hope you feel a little bit less powerless tonight I certainly do I've cleared up the issue about my Jewish Origins it's a it's ah you got my point yeah no no in my dep I'm a dirty anti-semite and and and so it's a wiz for me I hope it was been a win for you thank our great speaker have a great evening let me just one word conclude when you said philosophy and so on yes we need it more than ever today even in our daily lives because you know the tragedy of our era is that we are confronting new problems where old religious other traditional wisdoms no longer work look at the problem of abortion you have decide about think when does the Fus become human being which there is no answer to this in the ancient wisdom or ecology or and so on so in some sense philosophy was never more important than today you need to or what is freedom for example the problem or artificial intelligence and so on and so on so yes philosophy is needed more than ever and let me conclude just with a reflexive for example to understand anti-Semitism a minimum of philosophical reflection is needed in what sense you should not approach it in the sense but are ju really like that you know the way they are described by anti-semites the moment you do this you are lost because the true question is not imagine my old example I already repeated here to days ago in London even imagine I'm in 1935 in Germany debating an anti-semite and he tells me but some things may be even true he tells me why is there such a great number of uh Jews in art criticism they dominate it after point it was probably true he tells me but je are seducing German girls well I hope they do and the other way around that's all I have to say you know what I want to say the problem is not are ju really like that the problem is why did the Nazis to sustain their self identity need a figure like a Jew there is the problem they need if you take out of Nazi edifice the figure of the Jew what remains is something horrible social antagonism to sustain their vision of society as an organic whole where do antagonisms come from from the outside from the Jew this is the beginning of philosophical reflection you just simply you don't simply accept a question you radicalize uh the question itself thanks very much I'm just sorry that I'm repeating that was the onore by the way yeah okay thank you

Channel: How To Academy Mindset

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Length: 92min 0sec (5520 seconds)

Published: Sun Nov 19 2023