Noam Chomsky: On China, Artificial Intelligence, & The 2024 Presidential Election.

[Music] hello everyone and welcome to this very special edition of through conversations podcast I am joined for a third time and they said show by Professor Noam Chomsky he does not need any introduction and he's uh previous guest in this show so our listeners are very excited about this conversation and so am I so Professor thank you again for joining me very pleased to be with you I'm very excited and very grateful with you because this conversation comes at a time where there's a lot of moving Parts in our society and your voice has always been one that can steer us into a more thoughtful conversation and more engaged discussion into how to improve our society our listeners were very interested in hearing your thoughts on the upcoming 2024 election presidential election Professor Chomsky which may be may be one of the most favorable moments in our history not for our country but perhaps through the entire globe what are your thoughts in the upcoming presidential election and what do you think are the key issues that will shape this election there are two key issues that shape everything including the election one is are we going to destroy organized human life on Earth there are two ways in which we are now racing to do that one is the increasing threat of nuclear war both in Europe and in Asia the second is by heating the globe to the point where much of it will be unlivable we just heard a couple of weeks ago from the ipcc the international scientific monitors uh their most dire report cutting few Corners about where we now stand overwhelming scientific consensus if anything's solid that is they say we have to radically cut the use of fossil fuels beginning now aiming for termination a couple of decades from now if not we pass irreversible tipping points where there'll be a steady decline to centrally destruction of organized human life on Earth the other possibility is we do it quickly with a nuclear war well going back to the 2024 election uh as in every other major decision in our lives these are the top issues of concern there are other issues will American democracy survive in any form rather serious question it's not a joke other democracies are in deep trouble read the newspaper this morning in India the head of the opposition party Raul Gandhi was just tossed into jail part of prime minister modi's effort to dismantle India's democracy and installer racist Hindu ethnocracy in its place it's one case uh talk about others the United States is finally the most important because of its extraordinary power and influences in the world so that's at stake and we can continue there are lots of other things so I think we could have said for each of the recent elections that it's the most important yet that was correct you know we also drew the next one hmm yeah it's really interesting and you touch on many crucial points that I want to get into our conversation today and in terms of electing someone there's a lot of names that are coming around more in the in the angle of the Republican party which are Nikki Haley Vivek reps one wani and Donald Trump and some that are potentially running which are the santis and Mike Pompeo and also in terms of the democratic party it seems that there's speculation that Biden may not run or perhaps he's not leaning towards running or maybe he will run but these are all of the questions that I have for you what are your thoughts in the Republican candidates are is there anyone that really would you would be interested in in having as a next president and also what are your thoughts in a potential re-election of President Joe Biden the Republic the Republican organization is not a political party in the traditional sense it that it is been turning into something quite different for several decades in fact I agree with the comments of the political analysts of the American Enterprise Institute Thomas Mann Norman Ornstein that the Republicans have become what they call a radical Insurgency that has abandoned the procedures of normal parliamentary politics if you rank it internet look at International rankings it's attitudes and commitments it ranks alongside the far-right parties in Europe with neo-fascist Origins the party is now pretty the popular base of the party is pretty much in the pocket of Donald Trump uh you look at polls overwhelmingly popular that's the end result of a long period can trace it back to Richard Nixon in which the party recognized back in at that time it was an authentic political party the Republicans and the Democrats whatever he thought about them they pretty pretty much overlapped in uh modes of procedure and attitudes and so on the Republicans were the the more pro-business of the two business parties in the United States the United States is basically a one-party State the business party has two factions called Democrats and Republicans the Republicans were more the more dedicated pro-business party Richard Nixon intelligence strategist understood that the Republicans cannot win elections on their actual programs the programs of strong support for the business world for the ownership class for investors from Banks and so on can't get votes that way so he recognized that what the Republicans ought to do is to shift attention away from their social economic policies to something else what are now called cultural issues with Nixon it was what was called the southern strategy let's draw Southern Democrats to the Republican Party by barely concealed racism by the mid-1970s Republican strategists record pulls over particular recognize that if the Republicans pretended I stress pretend to be opposed to abortion they could pull in the huge Evangelical book then being politicized for the first time and the northern Catholic vote so they all switched on a dime uh George H.W bush Reagan had been strongly what's now called pro-choice suddenly became what's an uncle for life almost instantly other leaders too so that became a plank of the Republican Party later on love of guns later on something else anything to keep people's attention away from the socioeconomic policies which are very harmful for their own constituency so you have to shift it with Newt Gingrich when he took over the house this became almost an open War we said we have to declare a war on the Democrats uh and since then it's been steady decline in this direction became Donald Trump who's in a very good showman was able to mobilize these ideas that these Tendencies very successfully so you look at his legislative program one achievement a major tax cut for the rich and the corporate sector stabbing everyone else in the back but you don't talk about that what you talk about is the great replacement Democrats being sadistic pedophiles or anything else just it's kind of don't look behind the curtain you know it's uh and that's been you can understand the success there has been a period of 45 years of what amounts to Savage class war against the general population it's bipartisan led by Republicans started Ronald Reagan followed by Bill Clinton Obama and it's it's called neoliberalism but which has a technical definition then definition of neoliberalism you look it up in the dictionary and says something about free markets free enterprise that's not what it is uh the uh it's basically class one so yes there is deregulation that is free of Enterprise but there's a footnote deregulation leads to financial crashes very quickly in fact started right away in the Reagan Administration Continental no my bill and homing savings and home prices the business World understands that the way it works is get deregulation we move towards monopolization quite naturally we make risky Investments make a ton of money we're not all crashes the state comes in and the friendly taxpayer business and we're seeing it right now unfortunately but it happens over and over so it's a market bailout economy for the very rich and many other things the cooperate and So Reagan and also Thatcher is associated in this uh their first Acts were to attack labor movement and undermine it severely that made good sense the labor movement is the main way in which people can defend themselves in a vicious class of War so you have to eliminate the defenses they used illegal means but it didn't matter this opened the door to the corporate sector to move in with massive efforts at strike working undermining labor laws and much of it illegal but when you control the criminal state it doesn't matter if what you're doing should lead and many other things like this go through the details like for example real wages for male workers are basically in 1979 productivity is increased goes to very few hands we even have measures of it the Rand Corporation super respectable did a study of what they call politely the transfer of wealth from the working class and the middle class lower 90 percent of the population transfer wealth from them to the top one percent their estimate over the 40 Years of class war they don't call it that is about 50 trillion dollars that's quite impressive class reward to steal 50 trillion dollars from the working class in the middle class and in order to get away with it you have to shift attention away from the policies and go to cultural issues well one of the effects of the class war has been to shatter the social order people live with precarious existence is very little wealth if you're an Afro-American versus no wealth uh precarious jobs and maybe it'll be called tomorrow maybe he won't associations dissolved the people are alone atomized angry properly angry resentful rightly resentful distrust institutions greatly institutions don't work for them very fertile to Reign for demagogues you get it accomplished megalomaniac narcissist like Donald Trump who's a good German uh he can mobilize people on this basis and from their point of view it's understandable the Republican organization now relies pretty heavily on a rural vote take a walk through rural town see what it looks like where's the industry is gone Clinton developed insisted on global trade policies which were designed to harm the American working class and to benefit Rich entrepreneurs and investors called NAFTA World Trade Organization it's not free markets highly protectionist it's one reason why drugs are out of sight in the United States because of the highly protectionist elements of the um investor rights agreement called free trade agreements or in our propaganda system so the industry's gone uh stores are shuttered homes are shuttered young people are leaving there's nothing there desperation in fact there's even an increase in mortality on the white working class increase in mortality unheard of in societies outside of war and pestilence What's Happening Here economists call it deaths of despair well you grab onto something maybe it'll be the church maybe it'll be the great replacement the Democrats are bringing in immigrants to undermine the white race almost half of Republicans believe that the Democratic party is run by sadistic pedophiles who are trying to groom children one after another crazy belief and you can understand it when your life is being taken away you grab onto something well it used to be things like say in the 1930s when I was growing up you grabbed onto the labor unions which were then growing developing my own family first generation working class things were pretty harsh much worse than today objectively but it was a hopeful period I remembered very well we're going to get together we're going to get out of this together we'll work together there was a moderately sympathetic sympathetic Administration and labor unions were not just wages they were cultural institutions classes adult education meetings discussions concerts even a week in the park in the Pocono Mountains for my uh Catskill Mountains for mine ants who were unemployed seamsters it was a whole way of life gone Reagan was a vicious brutal killer and racist understood or at least as advisors understood we ought to wipe this out and that and it's been the same pretty soon Clinton joined in in his own way well that's where we are now we have an election coming up with one party which is for quite rational reasons dedicated to undermining his democracy they can't survive in a democratic system you can't have a party who's Soul commitment in policy is to enrich the very rich in the corporate sector and stab everyone else in the back can't run on those programs so let's undermine democracy let's bring up issues like Democratic pedophiles and the great replacement whatever crazy idea comes along next but just turn people's attention to that and again given the collapse the attack on the social order this is not too hard to do that's one party the other party is split the Democratic party which still functions as a political party is pretty much split between uh Clinton nine party management which is part of the general assault with a slightly softer touch and the sort of Sanders movement which has a strong popular base not much of a representation in Congress and they are in the American system doctrinal system they're called radical in fact by International standards they're mildly Centrist in fact one of the editors of the London Financial Times the major Business Journal by no means the radical Journal one of them equipped half jokingly only half jokingly that of Bernie Sanders was in Germany he could be running for the Conservative Christian Democrat Party if you look at it it's not false take a look at his programs Universal Health Care free higher education child care have that everywhere they have it in Germany Mexico France to take up Brazil and look around the world so these are mildly Social Democratic policies in the United States considered very radical uh the United States has a very class conscious business class this goes way back that's why we have a very violent labor history extremely violent surprise conservative Europeans but and now even simple things like maternal care care for a woman after childbirth the only country that doesn't have it is the United States and a couple of Pacific Islands a here is considered a very radical idea um right now in France people are out in the streets demonstrating that macron's version of neoliberalism raising pension age now here nobody understands that of course everybody wants to work like a maniac until the last minute well friends still people want to have decent lives you raise the pension age who are you attacking working people not affluent professionals not people like me not people who work in offices we live longer you're a construction worker police officer you're not going to live very alone it's a hard life raise the pension age you have less of a retirement to enjoy yourself or do whatever you want so in France that's fighting issues here it's almost even unimaginable raise the pension aged 64. what's that about I'm in Europeans Americans work about a month or six weeks longer than Europeans because of the Savage character of the uh sort of the Conservative Business run system it's not in the dreams you go back to the 1930s my childhood the United States led the way in social democracy Europe was descending into fascism the New Deal was offering hope for social democracy it's later picked up in Europe so it's not it's not a law of Nature and these are basically questions of the character of class war that the essence of it you're not allowed to talk about that in the United States there's no such thing as class no such thing just everybody's middle class whatever that's supposed to mean well it's not the case now there are people who give orders or people of followers that's class uh if and you look at the way this is developed over the years yes you know there's been constant class war takes different forms last 40 years it's been pretty Savage not just in the United States various forms elsewhere in France you see the forms right like during that cross period in office this prime minister you look at the record the rich have become richer the workers have become stagnated or become poor that's a mild form of the class War called neoliberalism and if I wanted indeed the worst victims those have suffered worse or the global selves they were subjected to IMF structural adjustment programs which had devastating effects in Latin America Africa elsewhere and the weaker are the ones who suffer most naturally Professor thank you for for that answer and there's a lot there that we can unpack and you mentioned right now you mentioned Latin America and my next question was regarding what we're seeing with a fentanyl crisis and with what we're seeing in Mexico with the cartels and there's been a lot of concern with how to solve this Challenge and I kept asking myself what would Professor Chomsky say how can we really tackle this Challenge and if there has to be a solution which one should it be should it be a military Intervention which I'm sure you you wouldn't you wouldn't agree on led by the U.S or would it justify the killing of Americans would justify us coming and helping the Mexican military cope with the cartels or how do you think we can solve the rising violence that's happening south of our border well let me give an unserious answer and a serious answer there's a saying in Mexico which I'm sure you're familiar with that Mexico is too far from God and too close to the United States okay since it's too close to the United States adopt the U.S way of dealing with these things so in the United States there is a major issue the fossil fuel companies and the banks are destroying the possibilities for life on Earth so how do we deal with it we try to bribe them to be nicer people you look at the recent so-called inflation act basically a climate Act what it basically does is say please fossil fuel companies be nicer we'll pay you to be nicer we'll give you incentives to be nicer uh we'll offer you more fossil fuel fields to exploit we'll give you subsidies all right so how should Mexico deal with the cartels bribe them say here we'll pay you off if you stop killing people if you listen to the United States it's too close to the United States why not try that of course that's ludicrous is it more ludicrous than what we're doing here no now let's talk to a serious answer what's the source of the drug problem it's in the United States where do the guns come from for the Mexican cartels from where I'm sitting right now in Arizona but I don't know which end of a gun to hold but I could go into a gun store buy a rifle and hand it over to the local cartel representative now you can take it to Mexico and start murdering people problem is primarily in the United States that's where the drug problem is that's where the majority of the guns are coming from so the problem has to be answered here it's the criminalization of drugs and the harsh drug policies no this history to this in fact it goes back to Richard Nixon except that in his case the Republican party still hadn't moved off to Total savagery so Nixon did impose kind of drug laws but they had a rational humane element to them one part of the drug laws was prevention and treatment that's gone there are studies again around Corporation others have done studies on what ways work for cutting down drugs well they studied just in terms of cost effectiveness the least cost the most effect turns out the most effective by far is prevention and treatment worse than that is criminalization put them in jail worse than that is border controls the worst of all is chemical warfare what we call fumigation so destroy the crops in Colombia including drugs but all other crops as well so you create insurgencies and terrorism and so on that's the worst of all that's the ranking now take a look at the funding it's the opposite most funding goes to the worst least funding in fact practically none goes to the best well it's another form of class war in fact the drug war has been an effective way of removing what are some of them is called the dangerous classes in fact if you look back over the history of drugs it's the way it's always been take prohibition you know back in the I mean you know the women's Temperance league and so on but what was the powerful force behind to get rid of the dangerous people the guy the immigrants who hang around in bars like those people if you were a rich Banker living in Westchester County you could get any kind of wine or liquor you wanted if you were a poor immigrant and or in New York you get arrested and thrown into jail well what happened when prohibition ended the Arianne Slinger the head of the Federal Bureau of Alcohol had nothing to do so they launched a huge propaganda campaign trying to show that marijuana was a killer you know Senate hearings with lured presentations so-called doctors coming in talking about the Hideous things that would happen to you if you smoked a joint and so on just happened that marijuana was being used by the dangerous classes Harlem blacks Working Class People so let's go after marijuana let's make that the enemy then it's one after another but I think Nixon was probably the last president to have had a any semi-reasonable element in this drug program so you want to solve the Mexican cartel problem overcome the drug crisis in the United States which is where it's coming to uh and stop the crazed gun culture I mean there's hundreds of millions of millions of guns in the United States southlandish uh the far-right Supreme Court has turned the Second Amendment into holy writ you know you ask people what's in the Constitution first thing they'll say is the Second Amendment in the modern form the form that was created by Justice Antonin Scalia in 2008 before that the Second Amendment meant what it said in order to have a well-regulated militia you know don't restrict arms now it's changed Clarence Thomas's View Thomas's picture of the United States is a hateful murderous Society his view is look you can't walk in the streets without having an Armory you need it because this is such a horrible society that was the latest decision on the New York law to try to restrict guns on the street no everybody has to have lots of guns uh six-year-old kid has to walk down the street with a an assault rifle because who knows what'll happen next well when you create that kind of culture oh you're going to be overflowing with guns schools are going to become the most most dangerous places in the country and it'll flow into Mexico where the drug cartels are delighted to have a cheap source of guns the actual figures we don't really know but most studies show that at least the majority of the guns in Mexico come from the United States Mexico itself has pretty tight gun laws you can't just walk into a store and buy a gun as you can where I live in Arizona but with the United States right next door not much in the way of Border controls to the South you can uh import guns you can export drugs and then well we know the answer but it's here in the United States Mexico itself can't do very much wow thank you professor and it seems that it's an interesting take that we have to tackle it from our end of the equation rather than trying to solve it for Mexico and moving on last year we also had a conversation which was in-depth regarding the Ukraine Russia crisis we've been seeing the conflict escalate and escalate and escalate and continue to escalate up until today and we've seen also President Biden going to Ukraine uh in the past month to meet with president zelensky and with ongoing threats of escalation nuclear escalation with the treaty being removed the nuclear tree being removed so our listeners wanted me to ask you on your updates your current update perspective on the conflict and where do you think it's going from this point on um side comment before I get into it how many presidents or high officials visited Baghdad when the United States was demolishing zero in fact the peace activists in Iraq were ordered to leave because life was so impossible under the U.S attack does that tell you something [Music] it does something you're not allowed to talk about it's called what aboutism okay it's a way of deflecting attention from what is highly important and recognized throughout certainly throughout the global South but even in Europe the hypocrisy is just Beyond shocking and it's having an effect well what's happening in Ukraine uh the wars and escalating the Ukraine is suffering bitterly huge number of casualties the Ukrainian Army has been apparently virtually destroyed no young recruits I'm not very well trained and huge casualties on the Russian side civilian casualties we don't know the details the United Nations estimates 7 000 which is surely a serious underestimate maybe twice three times that many pretty serious I mean it's not a wreck it's not the American kind of War but it's bad enough then it can increase uh now it's tanks beginning to be jet planes of the American Military has the actually Washington posted an article a couple weeks ago pointing out that the U.S American forces basically are directing the fire of the advanced weapons by Mars and others that are being used the world most of the world sees this as a proxy war between Russia and the United States fought over Ukrainian bodies and it's being become harder and harder to avoid that conclusion if the work continues to escalate Ukraine will be some of the economies very severely harmed I mean not like Iraq or Libya or targets of American attack but bad enough seriousness it's going to get worse pretty soon increase the tax jet plans and so on Russia will probably retaliate by a harsher attack against Western Ukraine against supply lines run to conflicts with NATO at that point you're moving up the escalation ladder to terminal War Putin has made statements inflammatory statements about nuclear weapons in reserve suspended participation in the new starts reading all of this is very dangerous uh I should say it's equally dangerous the way it's escalating in China we don't talk about it much but should but all of this is quite serious U.S policy in Ukraine remains stable the war must continue in order to severely weaken Russia that's policy written in the united Britain which is a virtual satellite in the United States now Britain and the United States actually intervened directly list March and April to urge Ukraine not to move towards negotiations in negotiations were going on with Russia under Turkish auspices they broke down we don't know exactly why but Britain and the US were very clear that we're not ready for negotiation to them still not the official stand remains fight the war to severely weaken Russia if you think about it just from a practical point of view it's kind of sadistic but people are in fact talking about it to bargain for the United States that a small fraction of the huge military budget the United States is severely degrading the military forces of its main military enemy that's being openly discussed now in the United States and Britain pointing this out it's pretty obvious whether that's a factor or not you can debate but it's certainly a fact uh the United States in fact you look around the almost the entire world of suffering from this Ukraine most but Africa Asia and curtailment of food and fertilizer shipments having a big effect Europe is declining even moving towards the industrialization because of its the breaking of its natural trade commercial relations with Russia the whole german-based very successful European industrial system was based on interactions with the East and Russia doesn't have much of an economy it's about the size of Mexico but it's very rich in resources minerals oil all Essentials for West European industry it's collapsing all over the world decline one exception the US is doing brilliantly it's degrading the forces of its enemy at very low cost fossil fuel companies are just euphoric with the huge profits that come Germany's importing the quad national grass from the United States and far higher costs and it could get cheaply from Russia and arms manufacturers they're doing great food monopolies there's foods that Global Food system is half a dozen companies raising prices uh profits going through this roof it's uh you know it's very successful in many ways no how long will Europe agree to accept this um I don't know we do know what's happening in the global Zone the they're just refusing to participate became very dramatic in the International Conference in Munich a couple weeks ago was an International Conference a strategic conference the United States Vice President Harris was there other Representatives desperately trying to get the countries of the South to join the United States in the world one after another said mothers your world we don't pay any attention to your hypocritical proclamations we know exactly what they mean we've suffered from your uh from your savagery for centuries stop lecturing to us uh just laugh at him we're not going to take part in this we're going to make our own regulation on our commercial and other religion arrangements with Russia and particularly with China you don't like it too bad but even you as a long time U.S allies like Colombia simply flatly refused uh Brazil no that's not our woman I don't know what Mexico said but probably something similar uh Asia India Indonesia I'm sorry we continue in our own way the United States is quite isolated the Anglers the English-speaking countries and for the time being Continental Europe centrally isolated probably in 90 of the countries in the world don't even observe the sanctions uh meanwhile China is moving ahead with its loan development investment projects also moving ahead diplomatically it just threw a major wrench in long-term U.S policy in the Middle East by arranging the Saudi Iranian negotiations it's a very severe blow to the United States control of the Middle East has been a crime crime concern of U.S foreign policy it's not the southern real government now China comes in the United States was working very hard to put together a an alliance of the most reactionary states in the region in a conflict with Iran it's called the Abraham Accords the United States we're supposed to applaud it was wonderful it's actually a reactionary Alliance subordinated to the United States aimed at Iran China just dismantled it took the main element Saudi Arabia was not technically a member of the Accords but basically part of it now that means the main source of oil pulled it into the Chinese system that had already happened with the internet at Arab Emirates the other major State uh China's has two major development programs for Eurasia there's What's called the new Silk Road which goes through the Eurasian countries and the but there's also a maritime silk route runs along the South through these Seas one of the hubs is the United Arab Emirates the main along with Saudi Arabia the main USA in the region The Hub of the maritime Silk Road of China these things are all taking place the U.S can't stop them with guns that's the U.S comparative advantage military force but it doesn't stop these things they continue and the world is moving towards complicated reconstruction uh Ukraine war has as part of it the Korean War has driven I mean apart from the criminality of the aggression major crime it's also criminally stupid from Putin's point of view he gave the United States its fondest wish Europe on a silver platter instead of an accommodation between Russia Germany to the benefit of both could drive Europe into the hands of Washington and Russia moves to the east we don't have the details of the latest meeting of China and Russia a couple of days ago but what's leaking out indicates probably that the part of it is economic policies developing Chinese development of industrial projects in eastern Siberia and access to the rich mineral resources of Eastern Siberia that's very likely as Russia's most of the East Europe sits in the pocket of the United States and declines um well uh India Indonesia South Africa Brazil they're just going in their own Direction maybe in their own Arrangements that seem that seems the way the world is moving and the US has one overwhelmingly powerful weapon violence but it doesn't work very well in this situation in fact the U.S moving to China the U.S which of course controls NATO has now expanded NATO to the indo-pacific region there is very significant the last NATO Summit meeting declared that the Pacific Ocean and the Indian Ocean are part of the North Atlantic now indo-pacific organization Europe is drawn into the conflict of the U.S is escalating with China it's both military and the commercial and the Biden administrations quite openly openly no secret declared a economic war or against China trying to prevent China's Economic Development by withholding from them advanced technology and trying to force Europe Netherlands particularly like South Korea and Japan to break off their relations with China and which is their main market for advanced technology will they accept this don't actually know it's very I'm going to take Netherlands as the main industry in the world for crucial parts of the development of semiconductors are they going to agree to lose their Major Market because the U.S told them to maybe if so they go into decline if not the world changes I think all of these things are right on the border and the one top US general and forgotten his name just a couple of weeks ago predicted that there would be a U.S China war within two years there can't be a U.S China award both countries get destroyed there's no such thing but the people generals Congress talk about it as if it's possibility uh it's very casual to talk about nuclear Wars utterly shocking you can read today in the New York Times and a long interview with Dan Ellsberg who's no suffering terminal cancer but trying still trying to alert the world to the incredible unbelievable stupidity of even thinking about nuclear wounds totally impossible but it's being abandoned about as if it's some kind of possibility and Putin's throwing his own oil on the fire and but that's what we're hurtling towards including environmental catastrophe it's a very the most dangerous fear in human history well yeah it's a very like you say it's very concerning that we are just casually talking about a nuclear war and casually talking about the world transitioning from a unipolar order to a multipolar order and like you say my next question was going to be your thoughts on the China Russian development diplomatic developments which you answered very thoroughly and I appreciate that and it's it's impressive like you say that we're moving on to a world where nuclear war is being discussed just casually like even among friends which is a strange time to live in and a concerning one indeed Professor moving on to an article you wrote on artificial intelligence you wrote it last the last couple of weeks and it got me thinking on your thoughts on of course you you write them thoroughly in that article but in the future and which is moving very rapidly for many of us including my generation who has to transition and adapt to a world where AI can come to get all of our jobs so what are your thoughts for our listeners who haven't read your article on chat GPT on Artificial Intelligence on its dangers in terms of not only taking jobs but also building a more dangerous world for all of us and its potential threats well we should first recognize that a huge amount of discussion about Chad Pat and other devices is a totally groundless these have nothing to do they tell us these systems are designed in such a way that in principle they can tell us nothing about language about learning about intelligence about thought nothing they do some very sophistic there's a lot of sophisticated programming but basically what it comes down to is sophisticated high-tech plagiarism that's uh in a certain way I mean you have a computer when you're typing a letter you get hints about what the next word will be in autofilm well this is glorified autofilm it's ways of making up good guess about what your next word ought to be in a sequence of words if you do this with an astronomical database extraordinary database supercomputers and a couple of billion parameters string it together you get something that looks pretty much like a normal language use the program is quite sophisticated so you know you don't choose the most probable next word because if you did that it would look kind of bland and not very interesting so you pick a lower probability word so it's a little bit surprising that makes it gives the false impression that something's happening but and there there's as far I mean conceivably somebody will come up with a constructive purpose so far there's none but it's very dangerous in many ways not so much taking jobs and maybe in the long term but I don't think that's a major thing it's dangerous in other ways for one thing people take it seriously there are cases people think they're talking they ask it's like asking questions of these devices that the what do they call them Alexa Alexa you ask Alexa should I you know should I leave my wife or something Alexis is something or other well that's Alexa you don't pay that much attention if it's a chat but you do pay attention and there are already documented cases of people getting deluded into believing these things are real um Thomas Friedman had an article in the New York Times about it in which he wasn't criticizing it he was accepting it he was saying oh my God it's Promethean the greatest Advance ever uh well people fall forward cause them a lot of problems um the uh it's a terrific technique of defamation and disinformation and that's already being used especially when you combine it with the artificial image creation which is not very hard you get things you can put somebody's name under it definitely fantastic defamation massive ways of the disinformation as soon as it gets with Bots and organized societies behind it it'll be a flood all of this can be extremely dangerous uh no scientific interest no intellectual interest but it does have could have major effects it's conceivable that it might replace some work like maybe routine coding or something like that but it's it's a very threatening dangerous development Professor yeah it's a it's a counter idea counter argument to all of the hype that we're seeing in terms of charge GPT and artificial intelligence it's also a stumbling thought that without checks and balances these Technologies can pose threads that we can't even imagine with hiding this information and the effects of fake images constructed in many more many more dangers and it's important to have these conversations to have them in mind I'm beginning to be aware of of the time Professor I know we have to wrap up soon so my last question goes back to your re when you were remembering the 1930s and how you said uh the times there were in your childhood where of optimism and how to how to build the future that we can all strive towards and it seems that in today's conversations in today's political climates and in today's society the conversations are how can we become more device divide divided and how can we really not be optimistic into the future be more of a having more of a dystopian Vision so Professor my last question for you is how do you think we can reconcile our differences in the American society in this bipartisan environment that we are on and how can we get back to that Optimist perspective optimistic Vision vision of the future I think we know exactly how to do it you go back to the Obama Obama years not very far the message was hope and change we can do it brought it in a lot of people a lot of the working class that's now voting for Trump was voting for Obama took the word seriously the words seriously the actions didn't coincide with the words the actions were betray people film this is just rhetoric you voted for me and I'll go home I'll continue working for the rich and Powerful well what's the answer take it seriously and do it can be done I mean a lot of things can be done let's take the financial crisis 2008 let's be concrete one of the things that happened was that the government virtually nationalized the Auto industry which was collapsing the government took it over what did they do build up the owners put them back in their positions maybe new faces but the same class and set them to redoing what they had been doing producing more automobiles more SUVs there was an alternative handed over to the workforce handed over to the communities let it be run by the people and workers in Detroit not rich Bankers in New York have them produce things that the country needs like mass transportation not more SUVs there was a possibility wasn't thought about because we were not organized active militant enough to make that an issue okay let's do it let's make it an issue let's say yes these things are possible that's one example there's a thousand more examples another example is take over the fossil fuel Industries in fact you can even buy them at market prices the government could wouldn't be more than the bailouts for the financial industry turn them to sustainable energy can be done to the workforce isn't even been interested in West Virginia coal State United mind workers has accepted a transition program my friend and colleague Robert Pollan in his group very group have been working on this in the ground Working Class People who said okay we can imagine moving to it transition program away from coal towards capping the minds developing sustainable energy better jobs better communities better life the cold Baron representative Joe manchin you just want to hear about it of course the cold fossil fuel Industries don't want to hear about it but these things are on the verge of possibility and there's many more like them you can think case after case well those the Pope the reason to be optimistic is there are these opportunities can it be achieved who knows can't tell until you try it's like negotiations in Ukraine you don't try nothing will happen you do trade maybe it'll fail maybe it'll succeed same with everything else Professor thank you thank you for that answer and for these enlightening conversation I'm sure our listeners will find it very insightful as the previous ones and I'm looking forward to having this conversation more in the future and getting to get your insights into our world ourselves and how to become more optimistic and also active in building our society to the better so Professor again thank you so much for joining me very glad to be with you [Music] foreign [Music]

Channel: Through Conversations Podcast

Views: 675,312

Keywords: Noam Chomsky, chomsky, noam, russia ukraine, Ukraine, russia, wwiii, china, us, presidential elections, 2024 elections, 2024 presidential elections, trump, biden, republicans, democrats, politics, democracy, artificial intelligence, fentanyl crisis, Mexico border, diplomacy, mit

Id: av_0PhJdw9M

Length: 63min 24sec (3804 seconds)

Published: Mon Apr 17 2023