Singapore Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong on Future of Trade

prime minister thank you for talking to bloomberg and the new economy forum the last time that we spoke you you talk very eloquently about singapore's role in asia and about the rising power of china and about some of the difficulties of being an ally of america in this particular region and i wondered from all those perspectives what should president-elect joe biden assuming that he has indeed won what should he do in terms of a policy towards the region and towards china in particular i think his first priorities will be domestic he's got many urgent things to deal with starting with kovit but asia is a very important part of the world for america and china particularly i hope that he will be able to focus his mind on developing a framework for an overall constructive relationship with china that means one where you're going to be competing where there'll be issues to deal with but where you do not want to collide and you will try very hard to work to develop the areas of common interests and constrain the areas of disagreement and within that framework deal with trade deal with security deal with climate change deal with non-proliferation north korea all the many issues which the two big two biggest powers in the world have to focus on and amongst those will also be issues which will be concerned of concern to all the rest of us in asia who are watching carefully to see how things will develop because the last four years have been quite a tumultuous ride do you think on that do you think trump has left america do you think he's done permanent damage or changed the way that america is viewed in the region i think that there will be some long-term impact on perspectives on america on how america views itself because it's it's not started with trump but i think over the last four years there has been a clearer shift uh stalking when you talk about putting america first and making america great again it's a more narrow definition of what where america's interests are then has hitherto been the way the administrations have seen things because previous administrations have seen america as having a broad interest in the stability of the region in the well-being of its partners in the tending of its alliances with allies in fostering an overall environment where many countries can prosper in an orderly scheme and america is part of that scheme and subjects itself to the same rules and disciplines is a strong word to apply to a superpower but presents itself as complying with an order which is in the interest of more than itself and it will take some time i think for america to come back to such a position and for others to be convinced that it is taking such a position it may never come back all the way and certainly in the short term in the certainly in terms of its relations with china i think i can't speak for the whole administration but i think there's some elements in the administration who definitely did want to make moves which would be very difficult to reverse by the subsequent administration and which will set the tone for the relationship for a long time to come and that once you impose if even punitive tariffs once you put them in whatever their merits no successor government can just say those were the wrong things to do i take them away it's a fact in being and the next thing you do you have to deal with it but you are dealing from a new starting point and there are many other steps which are i think even more sharp in that way and technology i think on the definition of how you see the other party whether it's a competitor whether it's a challenger whether it's a strategic threat whether it's a mortal enemy i mean these are statements which have consequences do you think language has consequences i know we're going to come back to the framework in a second but when you talked about america first some people have looked at what happened with trump and by talking the language always of america first rather than singing the traditional american song of freedom and liberty and openness do you think that really made a difference well if you ask the europeans i would think many of them would say yes they will ask the asians they would say we fully understand but we make must make our calculations on that basis what do you think there is a role one of the things people have talked about biden doing is having a kind of coalition of democracies that would bring in people like yourself indonesia japan south korea is is that part of the framework of that you could imagine working and with that we all want to work we all want to work together with the us we all want to work together with other vibrant economies we would like to cooperate within the region i think not very many countries would like to join basically a coalition against those who have been excluded chief of whom will be china even in especially not just singapore but and not just in asia but i think even in europe there will be countries who want to do business with china i mean for example europe is trying to conclude an investment agreement with china and uh well it's it's quite understandable i think it's better to you want everybody in the discussion in trying to work out adjustments to the world order but i don't think it is and and in that process you are going to have people form alliances they will cooperate with one another they will try and find common cause but to try and make a line up cold war style i don't think that's on the cards so you'll be against things that exclude people just just pushing in on trade which is a big focus here i mean what to what extent do you regard tpp or was that called cp tpp do you regard that as dead is that has that gone or do you think that is possible to revive oh no the cptpp is very much alive there were 12 at the party uh rollover rolled over one fell out and now there are 11. and the 11 carried on with the party and it was to the great credit of mr abe who was then prime minister of japan that he held it together and brought everybody back on and we concluded the cptpp um america is not part of it we hope that one day america will come back to it but i don't think realistically that's going to happen anytime soon the stars are not aligned the democrats the i don't think the base is very keen on this the obama administration which biden was part of was keen on this hillary who was secretary of state fully supported it but when she became hillary clinton the candidate she had to repudiate it it's the reality of american politics so i i still think it makes sense for the u.s but it has to make domestic political sense as well and that will take time and a different alignment of the economic situation as well as the political um uh configuration in the us do you think on that particular point do you think that there is a possibility that biden generally could end up being somewhat tougher in terms of everyday things than trump was to the extent that biden is more likely to to complain with china about human rights and you've also got this as you said this side of the democratic party which for whom things like labor rights environmental rights matter enormously so that in some ways being more predictable figure he could be tougher it's possible um he knows xi jinping very well because they spent many hours together when she visited the us and i think he's visited china too and they have engaged one another so i think that personal engagement at the top is important but equally important is how each countries sees the other and the intentions of the other and whether they see the possibility of being able to work together to mitigate the in inevitable contradictions which are going to arise between them it's not always easy but it is possible and it has historically happened with many administrations you'll make very few statements on the campaign trail once you become the administration you have to deal with realities and you have to pivot bill clinton did that he's the one who talked about coddling dictators from baghdad to beijing but he did business with china and i hope that something like that sorry i hope that something like that can happen with the next administration but i think it's harder because the consensus to see china as a strategic threat uh is almost becoming received wisdom and unquestionable in the u.s in washington and so it would be very difficult for any administration whether it's biden or on the outside chance trump uh to disregard that and just proceed as if the last few years had not taken place what about on the other side you are one of the people of america's allies who understands and knows china best do you think that the chinese attitude we talked a lot about the american attitude but do you think the chinese the chinese are prepared to do bargains about this it takes it takes two to tango to offer an elevator yes it does uh it is not this is a bilateral relationship i don't think the chinese want a collision because i don't i think they know they are not ready for collision but i'm not sure that they are prepared to give a lot of ground and their principal consideration will be a domestic one rather than one of the international balance intellectually and i mean in an abstract sense they would agree when you tell them that you used to be four percent of the world trade and you're now 13 or so and the rules which were settled when you were four percent have to be updated now that you are 13 and you have to make certain changes changes to the overall balance of the contributions to the global to to the to to the overall system and also changes to deal with particular grievances and issues which have arisen on specific problems whether it's trade or whether it's security issues in the abstract i think they would agree to uh if not to a shift at least to a change in the trajectory but in practice when it comes push comes to shove when you have to negotiate a new dispensation i think they're hard bargainers and it's not clear that between the two sides they will be able to uh to move to a new position and i can understand the difficulty because we are where we are as a result of 30 40 years of liberalization and reform reform and opening up and in the process china has gotten more affluent more powerful the partners of china have also benefited from china's emergence as an economy its connection to the world its production of manufactured goods its consumption of uh large i mean from everything from aeroplanes to uh movies and financial services so the the the chinese narrative would be it's been win-win we should all rejoice why does anything need to be improved but actually things have gotten better and yet i think many countries do feel that things do need to be adjusted and that adjustment would be very difficult to make one last question on that how much especially from your perspective as a democracy how important is what's happening in hong kong where there seems you've seen that the pro-democratic people have all resigned that there is there would be most people would read it as being a clampdown on on freedoms in hong kong that's obviously not so we're concerned we we watch carefully and with some concern what's happening in hong kong and the responses in hong kong i think that something was going to happen was very much on the cards and could not have been avoided because the demonstrations and the expressions of defiance could not have carried on indefinitely certainly not to the end of one country two systems in 2047. but the question was how it could be headed off and they the chinese government i think have settled on this formulation where they have made their legislation and the administration in hong kong they've made the legislation in china in the uh npcc in the people's congress and we hope that it could be done in a way which would deal with a problem but not shake confidence and maintain the hong kong system intact so that it can be valuable to china and can be part of the prosperity in the region but i think there's a lot of concern there's a lot of concern in hong kong and you can and you can see the way actions have reactions and further anxieties arise i hope you can settle down to a new normal it will not go back to where it was that but something which is sustainable and which will enable the hong kong people to live uh stably and have the economy working and have a greater degree of the freedoms and the and the access to information and expression uh that that they then pertains uh on the other side of one country two systems okay on that just just jumping back to trade which we we began on with tpp but there is also um the rc the asset um this weekend which is about to be signed exactly and when it when once it's when it's signed how do you regard that remotely as a kind of comparative thing to tpp and people people always point out that it isn't as it's much more toothless than tpp was designed to be what how should we look at this in terms of regional trade it's a different uh animal for a different purpose the tpp had a relatively small number of economies there were 12 and 11. it went for a very deep agreement uh requiring substantial commitments from these participants and covered um areas which are very difficult to cover like intellectual property even i think there were even discussion contents on um exchange rates and things like that the rcap is a different configuration it's asian it includes all of the asian major economies except india which unfortunately has decided not to be part of the grouping it covers one third of the global population and one third of the world's gdp but it doesn't go as deep but nevertheless it is a significant step towards reducing trade barriers and facilitating trade between these economies and also a significant statement that in asia whatever happens in the broader world we would like to promote regional integration and we do believe in a model of cooperation and win-win trade rather than in going it alone and beggar thy neighbor which in these troubled times is worth quite a lot i know you've always been a great supporter of globalization and things like that i mean one one thing which would worry me about um our cep is where if you look at say for instance um china's treatment of australian exporters at the moment um punishing australian exports most for political reasons most people would look at that and say that's a sort of infringement of what a trade bloc is about but under this format there isn't a kind of tools for dealing with it or do you think that is something that may come in the in the future i the the i the way to deal with those kinds of issues is the wto i mean the wto does have rules what you can what restrictions you can impose how you have to justify them how do you adjudicate them and appeal their judication and i hope with a widen administration the wto will no longer be deliberately pushed to one side as has been the explicit policy of the trump administration but the way we the world has tried to think about trade since the second world war and the creation of gat which was the wto's predecessor is to try and segregate trade from any other issues and disputes which countries may have on the basis where trade is win-win you have to have rules for it but the rules have to be objective and fair and there must be some way to deal with the rules and that was the general agreement on tariffs and trade and then the wto and when countries treat trade like that you can quarrel over many other things almost come to blows but let's try and insulate trade because if you hit trade you i hurt myself i had you as well unfortunately the lines are gray and when it's not just in asia but even on the other side of the atlantic or even in europe we have all sorts of issues which appear when it comes to phytosanitary or medical requirements on wine or on bananas or on uh or rock lobsters even between america and canada wants to know how strange things happen and they are always declared have to have nothing to do with any other disputes and to be purely trade and sometimes it's purely a trade issue sometimes it's not but i think the more people avoid doing that the more it will be credible when they say we believe in multilateral trade and we believe in win-win development and cooperation with our neighbors the penalty is not just what you can do with a slap on the wrist some of that is necessary because otherwise why will you pull back but the i think the price really is also in the longer term uh the reputation of the countries and how they practice their trade diplomacy and their international relations with other countries whether they have a reputation for dealing uh over on above board and directly or whether when issues arise myriad of other problems spontaneously appear and i think countries do have reputations to protect do you i mean singapore has been one of the great successes of kind of global trade you look at the world at the moment there is a possibility of a division into two internets there's a possibility of a division into regional blocks with maybe things like arsenal becoming a sort of more regional variety you talked about the wto do you worry about a global world becoming a much more regional one i think the regional blocks is a possibility but i don't think it will split up altogether because the trans-pacific trade links and the transatlantic trade links are too substantial to be to be cut off and to be divided into two worlds or three worlds the risk of bifurcation of technology is there in fact it's not just a risk it has happened because in china you can't get google or facebook or twitter they have their own equivalents and there are legitimate reasons why you may be concerned about the provenance and the ownership and control of the technology for uh vital parts of your information infrastructure like the 5g system but on the other hand you finessed huawei rather elegantly as i remember it by by giving them some access to singapore's we did what we thought made sense for us we have stringent security requirements and we stated them up front we invited uh the operators to bid we did not rule anybody out and the operators made their own calculations and then they they decided whom they would partner with and it's up to them but because our attitude is whoever system i buy and it's not going to be my system because i don't have a singapore 5g system there could be vulnerabilities there could be deliberate vulnerabilities and there certainly will be intruders trying to come in even if there are no deliberate over vulnerabilities and some intruders are bound to come in therefore absolute security is not to be had and we have to be practical about it and we will do what we can and then we will use the systems for the risks and the purposes which suit them and if i really have something which i cannot absolutely cannot risk um compromising or losing information about then i'll have to find some other solution but i if i say i want absolute security that's not to be had in this world do you think doing as a way of putting the internet back together again and to the extent that it is okay are you coming to this position no i think the ideal where the whole internet is won and everybody is instantly connected to everybody else and there's no gatekeeper along the way and it will heal itself and treat censorship as a as a floor which it can build around which was the original ideal i don't think that's realistic it's it is substantially connected there will be all kinds of gatekeepers as well as bad actors on it and you will be able to get through better than in the old days by calling idd but by no means would it be a seamless network i know it connects and that's the way the world is sorry go ahead another another another another subject which is close to that is vaccines very much in the news at the moment you talked about being a small country doesn't necessarily make things yourself you you now have the vaccines do you worry that the the bigger countries are the ones that are going to grab the new ones i know you have a you have a deal with acura to get a particular vaccine you have pfizer out there doing things do you worry from a singaporean perspective that it's it's harder well for singapore knowing that we are a small country and we are not going to invent all the vaccines we need ourselves we have sought to make arrangements with not just one but multiple vaccine makers so that when products become available well we will not be lost in the queue i doubt we will be first but we don't want to be the last big countries have made sure they are the first in their queue sometimes by extremely comprehensive measures i can understand their political urgency and i think it's a reality that they will get some of their way uh it's a pity because the blue asia makes a very valid point that the best way to get the kovit 19 under control is to have a rational scheme of priorities to distribute the vaccine to the places where it will make the most difference to the outbreak but to optimize that on a global scale around 200 odd countries i think is going to be very hard so the reality is eventually you will have it available extensively and the technologies economies of scale will improve and it will become much more affordable but that will take some time maybe a couple maybe a few more years within the next year vaccines will be available but i don't think you'll have finished uh protecting the world's population within the next year furthermore you're not sure what uh risks and problems may arise and you'll have to learn as you go as we feel our way forward so we're not in the best case situation but at least with where we are now it has been possible for the science and the technology and the production to come up with a vaccine in record time with a number of vaccines in record time test them i hope some of them i'm pretty confident some of them will pass muster and more and then we will have more options to play with that's what singapore is counting on i mean why we are taking all precautions to prevent a second surge of uh kovind just on that there's been quite a lot of attention in america particularly you look at the the numbers the crude measure of how well countries have been doing covering covid um you have america and britain where i am at the moment over 700 deaths for every million people you have germany around 100 deaths for every million people you have your own country closer to five china claims the number of three japan south korea the countries of asia have performed unbelievably better 20 30 times better than the countries of the west how do you explain that and do you do and i know there have been some internal critics of what you've done in singapore but by any measure you've done rather better than western countries what has been the reason that asian countries have done so well well i would very much hesitate to declare victory now because the fight is far from over but what i think the asian countries have succeeded in doing is to get their populations to comply with the measures which are necessary and cooperate for example wearing masks or uh distancing themselves um so far with greater success than uh the europeans or the americans where after some time you are fed up and tired of being locked down and you there's push back you want to go out and let your hair down and have a drink and and and have a wave and when you do that there are consequences for public health we have been lucky because we have not had a huge number of cases in the community we have quite an elderly population so if there had been many community cases i think we would have had a large number of casualties and and and mo deaths too we've had quite a number of cases but many of them or the vast majority of them have been amongst migrant workers in dormitories where we were able to keep it confined at the same time to treat the migrant workers properly and give them the medical attention they needed and to keep the fatality rates amongst them too very low it helped that they were young and therefore um many of them had the disease in a mild form but we worked very hard to make sure that um we kept the migrant workers as well as the singapore population safe so far we've done that now our challenge is how do i open up my doors so that i can have flows and tortoise and business travel to the rest of the world and manage the cases which are bound to come in and which are going to pop up amongst my population because if you are something like china you can decide to close all your entry points practically and be in splendid isolation for quite some time without much difficulty not forever but for quite a long time but for singapore that's going to be very tough and that would be a big challenge you'll you'll you'll be i understand singapore everyone has challenges on this but by any measure if you're 20 30 40 times better than people you look at also the numbers that singapore records and things like education and these other asian countries as well your father particularly i remember talking to him used to follow western government closely how bad do you think government is in places like the how inefficient do you think the public sector is in the west now compared with what you were i i would not put it in terms of the inefficiency of the governments i mean you have governments vary they depend on the social context even very good governments are struggling with kovit they look at the germans or the swiss it's uh this is um they're both about five or six times better than the americans so that it's a it's a relative statement well it's it's partly what you do it's partly the how the disease be value and the cards you have to play with i i think it is i mean it's invidious to say who is better and who is worse but it's a disease which has presented enormous challenges to societies to governments as well as to individuals responding to this and having to do the best for themselves and yet respond rationally from the point of view of the whole society it's a very difficult and to do so in the middle of the fog of war you don't know what is happening you don't can't understand what's happening you are not sure what's going to happen next and very often what happened next turned out to be even worse than you thought was possible and it takes a while for people to ask for that you've drawn on your reserves i saw you've drawn i think it's 52 billion billion singaporeans yes singapore illinois um i want to support your reserves and so you've which i think is the equivalent of 20 years of past budget surpluses are you going to have to continue running deficits for some while do you think i think i hope that we will be able to come back to prudence and and balanced budget but it may takes a while but i think the psychology that we have to earn our keep and even if we have reserves they are not bottomless has to be deeply ingrained in our population it's not easy because the opposition will say well how much do you have let me have a look why not take a little bit more we are not broke yet but would you expect sorry sorry i interrupted you i'm sorry i was saying would you expect next year to go back you i think your next budget is in february when would you sort of expect to get back to next budget is in february i very much doubt we will be in balan we will have a any budget surplus by then even a balanced budget will be very hard to do because the economy you have to spend money on coving and the economy is down and just from a counter cyclical point of view you have to you do not want to have a negative fiscal impulse you must keep the economy on an even keel and people as far as possible in jobs or if not in jobs some help is rendered so that they are able to get past this difficult period because their jobs are not yet going to be available in some sectors of the economy which are going to be at best in suspended animation for quite some time to come particularly aviation and tourism and the entertainment sector and it's better for me to take care of them and keep them in suspended animation than to risk reviving them before we are ready to deal with the consequences and then you have another major covet outbreak so therefore therefore i think we have to deal with the public health and the economic requirements in the immediate and medium term but one day this tool will pass and when it does we must make sure that we can get back to where to uh the habit of balancing our budgets has covert changed the way that you you look at the world has it changed how profound do you think the impact has been i think the psychological impact on this generation will be considerable because until it before kovit in january we were having a conversation in davos it was just about to happen and we were still carrying on as if the world was in its own tracks that you're talking about globalization the trade trends therefore the trade issues therefore you're going to have competition and what are you going to do about technology and so on and overnight all that is no longer your top priority your top priority is just making sure your people are safe and that where the jobs have been lost that they are able to feed themselves and their families and it's a it's a very powerful reminder that man this man proposes god disposes and therefore whatever you may think in terms of planning ahead and projecting ahead something drastic can happen tomorrow which can totally change your plans and you have to have the the spunk the the resilience to say well now this is a new situation where do we go so be prepared for the uncertainty plan for the future but also have a modest estimation estimation of how capable you are determining the outcome do you think it gives biden an opportunity assuming again that he becomes president that it gives him an opportunity to reach out to areas like asia this is the first big crisis i think you could say since the second world war where america has not played a leading role in it was withdrew from the who it didn't reach out to other countries in the way you might expect does that give him an opportunity a way of of bringing your region back to america i suppose i hope so uh the the chance is there but he has many priorities and asia is one of them i mean he has to deal with it in europe he has many priorities too trade as well as nato and with russia he has issues to settle in the middle east so i think he's got a full plate i hope that it will be a new direction for america but don't forget that mr trump collected more votes than barack obama so he has not disappeared nor the pressures which he represented nor have they disappeared from america's body politic and uh that would be something which joe biden will have to contend with deal with and hopefully we'll be able to remove some of the bitterness and rancor and poison and begin some reconciliation between the red and the blue americans so that come 2024 the contest is not such a poisoned one conversely i'll come back to 2024 in a second but conversely um to the chinese does this also offer an opportunity is that you look at these big challenges like covid like climate change these are these are things that happen to all humanity and they offer a potential bridge to kind of open up a better relationship with with with america i hope so when when mr trump was elected some chinese commentators who were perhaps not so perhaps overly confident of their ascendants uh thought that they saw a strategic opportunity that that america would now not have a coherent position in the world and therefore that they had the field open to them and that they could expand their influence in the world i think that they have since discovered that it's not really that much to their advantage to have america at sixes and sevens and unable to have a coherent policy vis-a-vis china or the rest of the world and it's better to have somebody there who may not fully agree with you but understands his interests in a broad way and whom you can deal with and with biden maybe they will decide that they want a new try i hope so but it is not easy to do this you remember when mr obama first came in hillary was his secretary of state she met mr lavrov and said perez agrees reset and it didn't succeed in resetting so there are no because both sides principal considerations are domestic ones the driver the driving forces the compulsions their priorities are domestic ones and you want the outside world to be at peace but that's unlikely to drive your domestic policy or cause you to adjust your domestic attitudes to to to lead to a stable international order and that's why you end up with miscalculations and uh all kinds of unexpected developments in the world you talked about an uncertain world you also mentioned um 2024 says one last question for you is that i think you asked you you're still committed to or you've talked about leaving office when you're 70 which i think is in february 2022 you may have noticed america just america has just selected a 78 year old does that make you think at all that you might hang on a bit longer well i'm not sure hanging on is the word but as as i have been saying since in in recent months we are in the middle of a crisis is a huge challenge for singapore is existential really both economically as well as on the public health point of view and i think it's my responsibility to see us through this crisis before i hand it over in good shape into good hands and i hope that will not be before too long i will take that as a maybe um prime minister thank you very much for talking to bloomberg in the new economy forum thank you thank you very much we should do we have to do i think we have to do a picture and we have to also do i think they have we have to ask this i have to ask you this one question which we're asking all the leaders which is what is the one thing that we was we must change after production should i do that one do the organizers want to tell me is that okay should i do that first quickly okay okay then i'll tell you i'll tell you why i think you're being very modest after that um prime minister what is the one thing that we must change after covert set up a global institution and surveillance network so that when the next bug comes we will know about it early with after sas the who and the even the uscdc actually had monitoring stations around the world which were meant to pick up signs of the next emerging disease early but the cdc pulled back and the wa show wasn't in enough places and so when kovitt came along well we found out soon but not soon enough for the nic and and there are now endless recriminations as to whether something was covered up or whether there's something untoward even sinister which is uh which we should discover but the next time disease x may be much worse than coving covet is not the worst thing that can be formed humankind and we do need the best early morning which we can organize multilaterally by all the countries together so that we spot it and we can react to it and give ourselves the best chance of surviving that already is very demanding it's not changing the world but it means getting countries to cooperate and getting countries to be able to open up so that not only your own scientists but these international teams are there to know if something has happened which is significant and to raise the flag quickly i think if we can just do that we will improve our chances of survival the next time you very much that was a very good idea what it's worth i i disagree i i just say that i i disagree with you on the i think the level to which the the western government has been shown up um because it is very high that's essentially what our book is about but it is the numbers if if america had merely been 20 worse than you then that would be one thing but when you're sort of 40 50 times as bad and i do think that i know trump made terrible mistakes with covid but i think a lot of it is structural if you have a public health system that's designed for the rich and the old you you'll never be able to to to deal with um with the pandemic so i think that is that is true but one thing which we did have in asia which the western governments did not have is that we live through sars that's true right in the case of korea they also lived through mers more recently and more frighteningly for them and that helped the governments to take it seriously and help the populations to accept things which they needed to do more readily than in the west that's true so so you have to you have to take these things into account i mean i do not take credit for good outcomes in singapore on kovit we have tried our best some of it generously we will say we maybe because of our efforts some of it is good luck it's just so happened that with this disease what we did was adequate so far tomorrow is another day and we are there fighting again and it can burst out on you i i think my argument would be if you if you and i had sat down on a with a piece of paper two years ago and said um a pandemic is gonna hit which governments do you think are efficient and well run and we'll be able to deal with it i think we would have written down the names of the governments that have done well and i think we would have got we would have got some things wrong i don't think we would have expected greece to do as well as it has because he's got a very rather good government at the moment there'll be one or two kind of imbalance but it's it's the same countries that finish at the top of education league tables the same countries where life expectancy has got better it's not it's not a kind of um it's like an examination covid i think and most the people who um the people who passed it if you set a surprise examination to lots of pupils some some people will ace the test without somewhat surprisingly but on the whole the people who've done the work before will do better intelligent infrastructure all that sort of stuff anyway so that was my one disagreement with you anyway for another day

Channel: Bloomberg New Economy

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Id: PLqRl6P2N-U

Length: 46min 48sec (2808 seconds)

Published: Tue Nov 17 2020