Signs of Hope with the “Nones”

welcome back to the word on fire show I'm Brendan Vaught the host and the content director here at word on fire Catholic ministries joining us from Santa Barbara California is Bishop Robert Barron Bishop Baron good to talk with you Brandon always good to be with you how are you and the kids doing we're doing great little Gilbert our sixth child just started walking which is add added another dose of chaos to our already chaotic home Imperial Walker that's right that's right hey you and I were just together a couple weeks ago in Dallas Texas they're the main reason we were there was to open up the new office of the word on fire Institute which I want to talk about in a second but the first morning that we were there you and I made a little excursion to the sight of the president John F Kennedy assassination tell us a little bit about that why have you been interested in this event and what was the experience like going there to visit it yeah I mean since I was a teenager probably the in the mid 70s when a lot of the books about Kennedy assassination theories came out I I sort of got obsessed with all that read those books and so I knew all about Dealey Plaza and the grassy knoll in the School Book Depository and where the shooters were positioned according to your you know conspiracy theory and some years ago I'd been to the site to Dealey Plaza but it was my first opportunity to see the famous museum on the sixth floor were where Oswald had situated himself so anyway I'm kind of a history buff American history my family was always very interested in the Kennedys so you know I found that fascinating all right so what's your theory one shooter two shooters big conspiracy well how do you read the whole thing well I guess when push comes to shove I would say I think one shooter oswald acting alone is the most plausible bets based on having read a lot of different it takes i think you and i both had the experience though when we were up there on the sixth floor and you're basically at the spot where oswald was it's a difficult shot I mean I'm not marksman I'm no expert in using a truckful but it seems like a pretty difficult shot but I think the evident the best evidence indicates the one shooter is probably the most plausible theory so that was a little McCobb start to the day but then right after that we went back to the new word on fire institute office there in Dallas that's spearheaded by Jared Zimmer the director of the word on fire Institute we now have several employees working out of that office what was it like to see this institute which just a year or so ago was just a dream just an abstract idea now taking physical route in an actual office in Dallas it was thrilling I love the office it's right near the airport and you see this beautiful kind of Texas a scene out the windows very airy place very bright very nicely you know decorated with some of the photography we've taken from our film trips around the world so no I was thrilled in you're right branded it was kind of a Vilayet II it was just a general idea we had only a short time ago to set up this institute which is meant to form an army of evangelizers and then I remember the day when father Steve and I here in Santa Barbara called Jared Zimmer to invite him to be the director of the Institute and we didn't know if he'd say yes or no so to see Jared there you know running this now very much incarnated office was was the thrill and I hope it is there for a long time and bodes well for our Institute I think the descriptor army is quite accurate we just crossed 5,000 members of the world entire Institute if you're listening to this podcast you're not a part of the Institute yet go to word on fire dot Institute we've got tons of great courses a bubbling community with lots of interesting Catholics from all over the world so check it out sign up join the movement word on fire dot Institute you were surprised me Brandon I I didn't even know this until Jared told me the number of countries represented by Institute members and what is it it was extraordinary like it dozens and dozens of foreign countries I think that's right yeah and so that was exciting and that's right we want to build something that really stretches across the country and even around the world well right before the visit to the Dallas office you were in Baltimore along with all of your other brother bishops for one of your big gatherings of the USC çb the US Conference of Catholic Bishops and it's a couple days full of meetings and administrative items of course for this gathering the main focus was on the sexual abuse crisis and on policies and procedures you guys as bishops are are strengthening and putting into place so I think that occupied a lot of the discussions there but also each of the heads of the excuse me each of the Committees of which you are one of them were invited to give sort of an update on what your committee has been working on and so you gave I think a 5-10 minute presentation on your committee on evangelization and catechesis it's received a lot of buzz and commentary around the Catholic online world especially it was livestream so anybody could could watch it and so for this episode I wanted to walk through some of the things you discuss and then address some of the some of the comments and questions that you've been getting about that presentation so first I guess tell us a little bit about this committee we've mentioned it a few times here on the podcast but give us the overview of what this committee is what do you do what's the point of it yeah I'm the chair of the Committee on evangelization and catechesis one of the major committees of the USCCB the purpose of it is to help the bishops in this particular area of concern so as they do their work of evangelizing and catechizing can we be of assistance to them so I took over about a year and a half ago as chair and since that time I've drawn in a number of people including yourself to talk about this issue of the nuns or the unaffiliated because I just said when I started I mean look this I think is now it's the number two issue facing us but I've I've been saying it's certainly one of the most important issues facing us as a church so I brought a number of experts in and as a committee we began really thinking through this issue carefully well then we petitioned for time and actually bred it what you said isn't quite right because not all the committees reported it was it was so ours was the only one that made that kind of report to the general body because we had asked for that time and that permission so they gave us just that little bit of time followed up by QA so as you say I made a brief presentation on who are the nun why are they leaving and how do we not so much how do we get the back I just did what are some signs of hope around this and then it was followed by as you say a really wonderful lively exchange with the bishop so we went out I think for a solid 45 minutes at least you know bishops raising you know concerns and asking further questions and and wanting greater clarification and making observations so it was it really I thought wonderful exchange and then response I got from the bishops afterwards was was overwhelming it was just very positive in fact they've asked and this is not for sure yet we're gonna petition they they want us to do another presentation in November with all of the experts so we can really have a chance to engage the the body of bishops well anyway it was it was a great it was a great moment I want to dive more into some of those reactions and some of the next steps for your committee in a second but first let's walk through the little presentation update that you gave so you mentioned it was in three parts who are the nuns why are they leaving and then you concluded with some signs of hope so that it wasn't just a total downer yeah so first of all who are the nuns you cited some statistics maybe talk a little bit about those yeah and probably those who you know but following our podcast have heard me talk about this you've talked about them before too you know for every one person joining our church six or leaving or 6.45 I think it is I shared that that always gets the attention of Catholic audiences the fact that in our country generally fully 25 percent now identify as unaffiliated but among younger people it's much worse forty percent in the general population but among Catholics fully fifty percent so I laid out some of those you're right sobering depressing statistics and you know you're a bishop you're you're in the evangelization business you know finally what we're all about is bringing people to the church into Christ and so you know those are tough numbers to hear now the second part why are they leaving and I made the observation that everyone seems to have an opinion about this you were not shy about sharing our opinions but what I wanted to do was share some of the objectivity that I said there have been tons and tons of surveys now we could fill library shelves with the surveys of young people where we've asked them so I said we should imitate Pope Francis here and say well let's actually listen to what young people are saying and there I laid out you know but that time and again the dominant reasons given are that we no longer believe we no longer find credible the claims of the church often coupled with concerns about science that the face seems out of step with science I talked to about cultural relativism giving rise to this culture of self invention right if I decide who I am I decide what the truth is the church's pretension to speak objectively for the true and the good seems highly problematic to a lot of young people now specify it I further said around specific issues especially with younger unaffiliated the gender issues and and the the gay issues you know anyway I laid all that out it mentioned a few other things too but that was the second move in the talk you know one thing Bishop that we at word on fire sometimes receive criticism about is that we focus too much on intellectual issues and that you know we need to sort of focus on the more emotional reasons the cultural reasons the communal reasons why people drift away from the church but to your earlier point when surveyors asked thousands of young people why they've left and every survey I've seen some version of that answer appears number one either I no longer believe or I don't find it credible or you know I don't see the importance or reason of being Catholic or Christian what why do you think we've so dropped the ball on helping people believe in our basic teachings well that's another question you know I was thinking that the first question is why do we have such a knee-jerk anti intellectualism I mean I fought it all my all life I fought it all my years the church the assumption that well that can never be the real thing people are concerned about that might be though you know what they present but what they're really concerned about is now fill in the blank you know in terms of pastoral ministry years I was coming of age in the seminary and my early years the priesthood we always devalued the intellectual as though that's not nearly as important it's you know reaching out to young people it's it's you know moving into their lives etc all the which is important I'm not denying it for one moment but we've oddly it seems to me oddly cast aside these intellectual concerns when in fact I'm not doing it for my health I mean I I'm I'm looking at the objective surveys that's what the young people say we don't believe this this operation we don't find it credible okay I don't care how you slice that that's an intellectual dilemma that's an intellectual issue that has to be addressed in a smart way so again I'm not doing it just because I you know feel feel strongly about it I'm looking at the objective data you mentioned in that section of your talk why are they leaving for different reasons we've talked here about the first one that they no longer believe and God or the Church's teachings you mentioned a second ago relativism being a big issue and you quoted from dr. Kirsten Smith Christian Smith is one of the experts you brought in to present to your committee he's probably the premier Catholic sociologist on this issue of the unaffiliated and there's one line that Christian Smith gave the committee he said young people are uneasy with strong statements made regarding theology consequently very few if any general statements can or should be made about God faith or morality the way I read that is it's not even that young people are upset with the specific claims that Catholicism make it's that they don't even think you can make any definitive claims about God or the church is that your experience working with young people absolutely even though we make definitive claims all the time about Sciences we have no quarrel with that what we'll make all kinds of definitive claims about it but somehow a religious claim strikes a lot of people today as inherently judgmental right that if I say well here's the right way to think about some metaphysical matter here's the right way to behave it's almost if so facto given the the parameters of a conversation today scene is something judgmental that we we don't honor the distinction between loving someone and disagreeing with what they say you know it's that we just conflated those two things so if you love someone then you must affirm any and all decisions that person makes right and concomitant ly if you disagree with a position that someone takes you hate that person and it's it's the the conflation of all that it's the failure to make that distinction that's led to a lot of mischief it seems to me this way you know I think last time we talked about this is the whole hate speech category Oh grant you there sure there's hate speech Hitler engaged in it I mean I get hate speech but today we tend to say anytime I'm disagreeing with the position that you're taking I'm if so facting facto engaging in hate speech so I think that's part of the problem is that we we just can't abide an objective religious claim we just think automatically that's a judgmental claim or a claim that involves my my hatred or exclusion of somebody so it's a lot of murky thinking around those themes well that dovetails into the third major reason why young people leave in your presentation which was the culture of self invention yeah so if Christianity tells people that God made you a specific way for a specific purpose but our culture says actually it's up to you to define who you are and what you believe I think we run into trouble in that when people then take their ideas and beliefs and wind them into their own personal identity that's part of the whole self invention package and so if you disagree with what I believe you're disagreeing with this self that I've invented right why do you think the culture of self invention poses a sea his problem to evangelization oh it's the is in some ways the most serious problem because you know the biblical view and it's it also dovetails with a classical philosophical view to is that there are certain truths intellectual moral truths that define us and that we find our authentic freedom and our authentic flourishing by submitting ourselves to those truths or aligning ourselves to them when you shift that around and it's you know it's it's a form of the Gnostic problem that's another big theme we could develop but the infinite plasticity of humanity as though I'm just a project of self creation it's all the matter of my will and there's thinking that old problem it you trace it back to someone like Nietzsche but way before Nietzsche the problem of we call volunteerism is the trumping of intellect by will that will has the primary role to play well then a truth claim is a is an affront to my will it's a limitation on my will or in our language today it's probably it's an insult to my freedom say see that's where that all of that murkiness has led to a lot of these difficulties where authentic freedom authentic flourishing and sense of self follows from an acceptance of these basic intellectual and moral truths and an alignment of my life to them I often use those examples probably hackneyed by now but of learning the sports or learning to play a musical instrument know one things you just go out here to whatever you want you know here's a guitar do whatever you want no it's it's by entering into the the objectivity of music and of that particular instrument that that you become free and joyful and adept at playing it right or you enter into the objectivity zuv baseball you know make up the game as you go along well then why do we think when it comes to the spiritual and moral life those rules don't obtain now suddenly oh no just make it up as you go along the church stands for something very different and that's why it's seen quite properly by a lot of people today as the supreme enemy that the church is what stands for for the alternate view of things and that's that's why evangelization becomes so difficult hey I want to announce to you Jesus Christ son of God incarnate crucified and risen from the dead and in in subjection to him you're gonna find the fullness of life do you see how that that runs counter to every instinct of self invention ideology all right the fourth reason you gave for why young people are leaving religion and becoming unaffiliated is because they see faith as illogical or unscientific we've talked about this many many times over many many episodes but do you want to say something briefly about that yeah well just it's often coupled with the the opening observation you know that faith is it's irrational I I can't believe this and the criterion of reasonableness for a lot of especially young people today is science there are the physical sciences to be in a core with the physical sciences that is what it means to be true if you out of step with the physical sciences you're it's fantasy or it's mythology or it's a nice story you know part of the problem they're a brand and I've talked about before with you is introducing modes of knowing that give us access to real truth objective truth but are not scientific modes of knowing that's why you know the the great stress on the stem stuff today wasn't a science technology engineering mathematics great great I love all them my nephew who's a rising junior MIT visited me here last night you know working on driverless cars I'm a great kid to talk about mister stem you know but I was delighted because he also loves history he also loves biography also and I began to kind of tease in the direction of philosophical issues on the edge of of you know the sciences good good there's a whole world out there beyond just the narrow scientific view of things but for a lot of young people science equals rationality religions not science therefore religions irrational see we have to overcome that problem let's pause here before we get to the sign signs of hope and I just want to ask in your experience with all the other bishops around the country how do you think all of the things you just said resonate with them are they seeing the same problems that they think it's as significant as you knew my experience dealing whether it's on our own committee or with the wider body bishops they immediately get it they immediately get it they say yes I understand that maybe they haven't thought about it in that pointed way but once you bring these themes up yes in my experience they get it okay so then let's move to the final part of your presentation this is the one that got the most commentary and the most buzz it was titled signs of hope and so in light of all these dire statistics trends answers they're giving in the surveys where can we what can we hang our hat on what's you know where are the signs of hope for the future the first one you gave came from dr. Christian Smith's research and you noted that few nuns are anti religious say something about that yeah and he's insisted on man I think that's right I mean I run into a lot of ferocious atheists on my internet ministry and that's probably typical because he had a lot of extreme stuff there but I think he's right that most people who have abandoned religion maybe they've drifted away more than stormed away they've kind of drifted to the margins of it and therefore you know maybe we can we could draw them back and they're not ferociously anti religious they're more either indifferent to it or they become bored with it and so that in itself the sign of hope that we're not in a desperate Twilight Struggle against you know militant atheism among the young but something a little bit softer therefore easier to deal with another sign you lifted up was the great fruitful work done on college campuses by Catholic campus ministry organizations like Focus and st. Paul's outreach and Newman centers why is that such a sign of hope well because it's happening you know they're actually in the in the trenches they're with the nuns with the unaffiliated and they're finding a way to re-engage them I've watched focus missionaries all over the country I've come to know a lot of them and to see their strategy and to see the effectiveness of what they're doing their own deep enthusiasm from the faith which is contagious you know and their approach I think is really a good one it's not aggressive it's not a proselytizing approach and I think that's very hopeful just listen to them listen to them some of the focus missionaries those working on campuses and there are ways to draw young people back so that's that's a good thing the third sign of hope that you gave was that there's a lot of engagement specifically online on the internet about religion that at this time when so many people are leaving the church there's still a lot of people talking a lot about religion why is that such a good thing well it's great and it's that's you know you and I both know that being involved in the internet world all you had to do is put something up about religion or about atheism and people come out of the woodwork you know to talk now maybe they might be yelling at you or they might be angry or whatever but at least they're interested you know and I think I did I make reference in the talking thing I did to the my experience on reddit right when we had the reddit that was the funny exchange with the bishop he said what what did you say Reddick oh yeah we said no reddit retic no reddit well what's reddit right for some of the older business especially that's kind of a different world but you know the very fact that I was on what was it like an hour and 20 minutes or something and we got I think was 12,000 comments it was the third-highest of anyone in the year well I mean say what you want about that I don't think it's signals that people are uninterested in religion and I'm often teased by my aggressive atheist interlocutors you know when they come back again and again I said you know if you really thought I was just trading and complete nonsense I mean you wouldn't bother if there were someone's claiming like I think there's a colony of penguins living on Jupiter I mean I would just you know I just write them off as a lunatic and ignore them right but the fact that people come back over and over and over again I think shows you know I would name it as the hungry heart the the natural desire for God that's in everybody and I think that's a great sign of hope and that we found a way through God's providence through the social media to engage people like that I think that's very hopeful all right the fourth and final sign of hope that you gave is I think the one that generated the most controversy and conversation so I want you to talk about it and tell us what you meant by it you called it the jordan peterson phenomenon what did you mean by that yeah why as I said very explicitly when I presented it I said this is not you know a one-sided endorsement of everything jordan peterson has said I said I'm not really proposing it as you know boy look at the content of Jordan Peterson's thought and that's the sign of hope my point was the phenomenon of Petersons namely that this rather mild-mannered intellectual professor who has become an online presence gets an enormous reaction when he talks about big issues you know whether they're psychological or weak more spiritual in the in the broad sense but now he's talking about the Bible all over the country getting tens of thousands in arenas getting millions online without bells and whistles without all kinds of you know hoopla he's a kind of mild-mannered soft-spoken professor talking about I told the bishops our book talking about our our Bible and is getting a massive response and my point very simply was that's worth thinking about and is a kind of sign of hope then we think oh well you know the young people spend they never you know be interested in what we have to say about the Bible or oh come on of a church you know what we can't get out there and then talk about these ancient texts well he is he is and he's getting a massive response so that's what I was taking the sign of hope but gosh there's an audience for this sort of thing and we should we should tap into that and what particularly encourages me about about the traction he's been getting is that it's not just a general audience it's this specific demographic say twenty and thirty something unaffiliated young man yeah who were raised hearing from professors and parents and people online that the Bible is just totally full of silliness and fairytales our goal exactly and here comes along someone taking it very seriously has a very nuanced multi-leveled reading of the scriptures and they're they're latching on to it they're fascinated by it so I agree with you is there any other sort of new ones that you want to add for the bishops or anything I think it was a little disheartening for me to see a lot of commentators throw up headlines or articles saying Bishop Baron is in lockstep with Jordan Peterson or is an ally of Jordan Peterson or whatever I mean I mean I'm used to it you are to whatever you're on the internet whenever you do this sort of thing you're gonna get that and it's of course ridiculous and of course objectionable but it's the game that people play largely is clickbait they want to get attention the kind of broad brush you know if there's if there's one little thing you don't like about Jordan Peterson oh this guy just mentioned his name therefore he must subscribe to everything that I hate about this I mean it was just ridiculous I think I clarified it one of the press conferences someone brought this up there was you know an interest online and I said look my message was not oh go read Jordan Peterson even though there are a lot of good things in Jordan Peterson I mean I think he's a lot of good things to say but that wasn't my point my point was attend to the phenomenon of this guy getting such an audience that should give us hope but I love read some of those things that I'm basing my apologetics on Jordan Peterson I mean give me a break Jordan Pearson I don't really know if he believes in God in the accepted sense he reads the Bible from pretty much a psychodynamic young me and standpoint therefore I mean if so fact I don't think that's an adequate approach I'm basing my apologetics I loved that I'm a fellow traveler of I mean using of course purposely charged language you know from the 1950s so anyway I'm used to it and but it's still regretable here's I think Brandon it strikes me this is all the devil's kind of stuff because here's this problem this massive problem we have of the attrition of our own people especially the young right we should all be gather working on it okay what's the devil's trick his name is is is the the scatterer right and the accuser those are always the two moves of the devil oh oh let's distract attention from this problem let's get them arguing with each other let's get them fighting with each other I love for example some people were saying like why didn't he say the sex abuse scandal is the number one problem well first of all because the evidence doesn't suggest it right now for sake of argument I'm perfectly fine to say let's say it's the number one problem no evidence but let's say it great great let's all get together and address it and these other reasons are important too good good why don't we all get together and fight this great thing together instead of bickering about who's reading the tea leaves properly here I mean that's right to me it was a prime example we fall for it every time the devil is not that interesting you know I'm saying I mean his methods aren't that surprising but yet we fall for it over over again here's the Catholic Church trying to address its very significant problem oh let's fight with each other about who's got forget it forget it fine you're right the sex abuse scandals are number one reason okay fine let's all fight together you know to solve this problem so I think that's what goes on there it's it's um it's regrettable it's also what you'd expect I'll use Teddy Roosevelt's line of being in the arena you know if you're in the arena and say you're you're out there making a public case no matter what you say or don't say people will attack you now in the arena people applaud for you and I get lots of applause maybe I don't deserve a lot of it but you get applause when you're in the arena and you get people throwing things at you in the arena that's just par for the course you know but I I think the deeper issue is it's such a it's such a diabolic sort of move that it distracts us from the work that we can and should be doing together let's close with this question I know a lot of the bishops who listen to your presentation after it finished gave you a big applause at you mentioned earlier there's like 45 minutes of bishops lining up to ask questions to affirm what you said there's a lot of energy around it to me the most surprising moment was when almost with unit unanimous consent they said we want you to give a bigger presentation about all this stuff to all the bishops and November but to me it raises this question what would you like to see the church do to address the problem of the nuns what needs to happen where should we address our energies well again it's it's multivalent it's it's a complex issue and there's a lot of different things to do speaking for myself based on the evidence and based on a lot of my own experience stop dumbing down the faith let's work much harder at presenting the faith in a way that younger people are gonna find intellectually satisfying and compelling we've got to get a lot better at that at least as good as someone like jordan peterson who's able to engage younger people in a way they find intellectually compelling again whether you agree or disagree with every detail of jordan piers and that's not my point but if you ask me that should be a number-one concern well it's time now for one of our questions from our listeners we love hearing from everyone who listens to this show if you have a question that you'd like to ask Bishop Baron just visit the website ask Bishop Baron comm you can record your question and send it in today we have a question from Jim and he's wondering in light of all of this difficult news regarding the abort the sex abuse crisis different moral scandals the problem of the nuns how can we stay optimistic and positive so here's Jim's question this is Jim from New York my question is how to preserve one's optimism and faith in view of all the challenges the church faces and the society faces including abortion and its adherence the rise of the unaffiliated and the decline in the church's influence thank you yeah good thank you we all wrestle with that kinda suggest a simple image go back to the Gospels and Jesus walking on the water and inviting Peter right who symbolizes the church to come out of the boat and join him walking in the water and I know it's maybe a cliche because every sermons been about it but as long as he has his eyes fixed on the Lord he's able to walk on the water and stormy water of course the Bible is evocative of the toha vapo who at the beginning of creation the primal chaos it's evocative of sin and death etc so it's the church able to walk on these great negativities as long as our eyes are fixed on Christ when Peter looks away from Jesus famously to the waves that he begins to sink and so you've named quite accurately a lot of the waves that that surround us today church history there have always been such waves right the church that's why that story is so powerful cuz Peter in the boat that symbolizes the church right the bark of Peter it's always been stormy water from first century until today always been stormy water if you look at the waves you're gonna sink you look at Christ you'll walk on the water meaning you you'll maintain your optimism and your sense of grace and of deep peace I don't know one Saint who didn't deal with serious waves in his or her life interior exterior institutional cultural whatever you want to persecution martyrdom right but with our eyes fixed on Christ we can walk on the water excellent we mentioned Jordan Peterson a couple times here and the long-awaited conversation between Bishop Baron and Jordan Peterson which they recorded a few months ago has finally been made live so if you want to listen to that nearly two-hour discussion visit word on fire dot org slash Peterson that's the website word on fire org slash Peterson you can listen to the whole discussion and then below it we also have a 30-minute dialogue Bishop Baron and I had kind of reflecting on that discussion highlighting some of the key parts so be sure to go to word on fire org slash Peterson finally a shout out to a couple of our great on fire show patron supporters Deborah Yip and Jing Jing Shapley I think that's how you say it thanks so much guys for supporting this show it means a lot and it helps us to get this show to many more people if you'd like to join them visit the website word on fire show.com slash patron and we really would appreciate your support thanks so much for listening we'll see you guys next week on the word on fire show

Channel: Bishop Robert Barron

Views: 43,445

Rating: 4.7957287 out of 5

Keywords: Bishop Barron, Catholic Church, Catholicism, USCCB

Id: Pa_1GQHaGq4

Length: 36min 0sec (2160 seconds)

Published: Mon Jul 01 2019