Sherman: Why the bad Reputation?

so hello everyone we're here with NICUs model for wargaming because this video is sponsored by wargaming because the flu mean we're in Conneaut oh hi of the world war ii armor guys out of florida have come all the way up here with their normal large selection of vehicles and as much blank ammo is they can fire which is quite a lot and the question is for me to you why has the sherman such a bad reputation right so you you of course will be aware that I have a reputation for saying how great the Sherman is but I actually it's a question that I've never really addressed rumors usually start somewhere there's always some sort of a foundation for any sort of wives tale or whatever at little grain of truth and it is true that there were issues with the import because like like any other vehicle I think that's that's part of the problem though is that every vehicle had problems but for some reason you only focus on once at the m4 had so you bear in mind that the m4 is still a development of an earlier tang it's not a brand new design like Pershing would be that they could start it with a clean slate or better yet Centurion they still were were fundamentally limited by the technology that the army had developed in the 1930s so that's your of your ground point now when it entered service this thing was effectively the best tank in the world well in early 1942 the thing shows up and eventually shows up in Alamein and look at what it's going up against Panther threes may be short panzer 4 is a few long ones but even the long Panzer Ford's Sherman is probably a better tank you might make an argument for some of the t-34 but I don't I don't think the 42 t-34 was up to it either yeah my personal opinion suddenly though this thing went from being oh my god this is wonderful because you read all the British report saying oh this is a fantastic tank we love this tank and so on - somehow it became a terrible death trap for North Africa and there's a couple in North Africa Africa for so here's the first problem what was you know the first major engagements that the US Army had because the rain window sir so that area that sort of design and if you look at the the initial engagements the American armored units to the to CCA come my commands they got absolutely hammered not necessarily because you were in bad tanks but they're just not well operated but still their main problem I ask you mr. were to aggressively and I'm cautiously I mean I remember one chair military I'm pointing out like in 1918 when the Germans fought against the Americans that they were like shocked because he was so well equipped but like at the same time the tactic you like 1914 was it something along those lines I think with more than lines that the Americans weren't quite sure what they were going up against and there might have been a little bit overconfident not necessarily over aggressive confident that they thought that they were better than Germans they just simply didn't realize that they're on there they're about to be on the receiving end of a significant German push and it took him a very long time to figure that out and that it would take more than they had to destroy Italy the Senate battalion for and it gets on with white devic sent another battalion forward and is a little bit better but some of the people forget about castering passes the Americans sorted themselves out by the end so the British are holding North Americans are holding the West and the German attacked just Peters out if Katherine passed is such a huge disaster would the German attack of petered out as it did no it certainly I don't think it will gone all the way back to the coast as you know the original plan intended but do I think the Germans have made a little bit more hay out of it so that was part of the problem in the American side and on the British side you also had the problem that the ammunition was being stuffed absolutely bloody everywhere and the ammunition tended to go off yeah so people oh yeah the the petrol engine well we all know by now that the petrol engine thing is a complete myth and everybody had petrol engines except the Japanese and the Soviets but the British would put extra ammunition and food everywhere the tank would get penetrated and will blow up yeah and ammunition fires in maastricht school video it has really nice instructions like the Germans have three types of fires and for the first one it's a I've if the if the lower Hollis and fire don't worry it just looks bad but on the third to save an ammunition is for get out it's like before it's like uh it's not a problem and then when you read before okay maybe they are overconfident and you read if that happens just get out just then you know okay do you mean it but the the other thing though by the British this if you look at the Crusader fire rates because again but if a better said it doesn't matter if you're in a Crusader tank or in a Sherman tank you're gonna get as much ammunition it's a because that's the way they did a think the things at the time Crusaders burned a lot also because of the ammunition be some reason they'll get the same perception of a being a deathtrap I don't know why except possibly because the Sherman was supposed to be better than the Crusader and if it's burning as often is it really better now I get is it burning as often in terms of percentage of penetrations killed yeah I have what percentage of the tanks are being burned so you you go from this is a great tank to this is a well wise is burning then they sorted out to figure out okay I don't carry too much ammunition and it becomes a good thank you get into bed almost storage as well I guess but that comes a little bit later okay then is you have the seesaw so in any particular period of time one country has better tanks in the other yeah okay yeah because it takes about two years for development of a new vehicle and so the Germans develop a new vehicle and then what was here is here then the Americans developed new vehicle their German and so on so it was always gonna be a period of time especially when he take him to account the production lag and the shipping lag and a training lag that the other guy might be doing better than you and that now is 1944 the first half of 1944 when a Sherman 75 s are still the default vehicle I mean by February of 44 all US army production is not a 76 millimeter gun tank the assault tanks the drum boats they would still be 75 the Marines kept 75 and they kept 75 for the end days especially the British who like you for the Firefly conversion but everything is not a 76 but hasn't gotten to France yet or Italy where the fighting is which means that the Americans are now fighting with an older generation of tank well there's probably no wonder that when he put in all the generation a tank against the tank to the Germans to come with it just took X many days on the train to get from A to B that there will be a period of time where you are not on the on the cutting edge of the technology then the 76 shows up and guess what it's almost a new tank with the new stowage they're wet stowage there were some 75 wet roads as well so but about the same time the what so it shows up to 76 so you now have a much safer tank you have a much more powerful thing and all of sudden it is now starting to be a little bit higher up but again this is also what the point where you get the the famous belt and Cooper book I was thinking about yeah you have to amend you if you're gonna talk about tremors liabilities you got to talk about Belton Cooper a guy whose sole function it was to fix destroyed Sherman tanks and that's all he saw for the duration of the war that's a perception issue then yeah it is he didn't see the Sherman tanks that were not destroyed and you didn't see the German tanks that were destroyed because why would he so you you get this very well-written book and there's enough accurate stuff in there and so on i mean i recommend i always recommend reading it just teach you treat it with a little bit of skepticism some of the bits that you read the conclusions how much is because i think in the end spent a book or spielberger spent a book he there's a section about all what american tank is said about the panthers and all the other stuff how much is about the grass is greener on the other side issue i think there's a lot of that so I had asked director RAF from Panzer museum about the the German perception of panther and it's got well they the sorry German sentence of Sherman Sherman and he said well they looked at the tag it says okay tanks got some good parts some bad parts it's just like ours and I think there is that perception the grass is greener especially for the crewmen though because the crewman is more worried about the things that will immediately affect them and keep him alive they will care about the certain you know the how how good the armor is versus the enemy's gun and vice versa he's a little bit less worried about the amount of time he's spending maintenance especially on the American side because if his tank is down for maintenance and not repaired one of you noted rod yeah he's not at the front carrying a rifle which I haven't checked specifically but I I'm gonna lay bet that a large number of German tankers whose tank was down for maintenance we're at the front carrying a rifle well I read recently something about singing a tolling wrote it about Pentagon you're right I think that at Stalingrad to use the drivers of the half-tracks against for for infantry fighting and then when they tried to do a counter push they didn't have any drivers anymore and and and other stuff I think in veteran as well so yeah basically as a german dt used all yeah also embed shine shining grout that they took they took pens a cruise at one point and use them use them secure areas so that the regular infantry from dead areas could be used to an assault and another piece of opinion that usually isn't asked when you're talking about the value of the Sherman it's the infantryman so there was some calculations done I can't remember who did it but the basis said that if you attack a roughly equal enemy and you win you lose a lot of people if you that if you were attacked by the two-to-one ratio with a single tank your casualties dropped by 50% if you go against the enemy and you have a tank platoon your casualties are down to like one-third and if you have a tank company in support you lose like three guys yeah wouldn't be surprised me I only read I think 40 for the u.s. force and also for for the chairman's that at one point it was basically if you didn't have strokes or armor or pencils with you that sometimes the infantry wasn't one pushing forward anymore so I assume when you bring on what the enemy doesn't have it the more likely they're gonna retreat and also if you have a lot of fire support suppression fire you file and suspicions or you hold the enemy down and and they notice the same thing for aircraft as well tactical air support yeah was such a huge morale boot so people talk about what it's like to be on the receiving end of it but the Americans and the British were watching the enemy get plastered they don't realize that the enemy is actually probably not getting killed by it but it looks like they are and gives them the confidence to move forward yeah and it breaks also the morale usually of the ground troops at least for instance they create the very Germany invaded mister with the Farmiga and then with TD bixiga they basically had almost no losses to British but the moral justice like completely insane the reports in a Republic quote Daria from from fennel he was about to manage national line at that's adore the the French actually didn't take too many casualties from the airstrikes but I got they weren't happy about it yeah al terror was completely suppressed in everything and the Germans reported this already in Poland and in France that the material damage done is very low with the stoker and everything but the moral effect is huge right so anyway back to the the perception thing so the infantryman who is very happy to have tank support it's not the person that people quote often enough when they talk when to say oh I spoke to a Sherman tank ER and he got into the Panzer and hehe competetive is how clear the optics are and again even at that the guy wasn't fighting it so he didn't know the liabilities that the the German tank had even though he was very very well at the liabilities of his own tank so I mean okay no neutral steer yeah a lot of things didn't have it but it could be handy reverse speed a little bit low and there was something that the British specifically mentioned when they were designing the next tank we need a faster reverse speed cue Moriarty the mechanical genius to get the m4 out of trouble as fast as it got into trouble there's again the armor values that they are that level for a reason the crews either didn't understand or didn't care about the reason so they put all the applique armor that they could onto it to give themselves a better chance even though it might break down the vehicle a bit more some things like that yeah Germans at the same problem I think could Aaron did the calculations for if you put concrete on the tank that's actually worse and something along those lines that it doesn't have at all yeah there's I think Doyle mentioned something of the same lines as well so the I mean there are limitations I mean the suspension is rugged but it doesn't give you a very smooth ride on the other hand you do have a stabilizer which kind of camp is that if you know how to operate the stabilizer yeah which is another entire different kettle of fish so I've got the again in the archives armored board is going why are we getting this reports back that the stabilizer is useless and nobody's using it and it turns that it was so secret that nobody taught anybody how to operate and maintain it so it's a bit like with the s35 with the lifted off flow tank well I mean it was not just not known yeah and there were only a couple of units in the US Army like third a third Armored Division that understood how to use Staebler and they love this they thought it was the best thing in the world but you go to another you know let's say fourth armored and they go what this is a piece of rubbish why is it here and there had to undertake a specific regimen of training to teach the soldiers how to maintain the stabilizer and what it could do for you and once the soldiers had been properly trained as a oh and then they put him on the range and they said a few guys this works great another question would be for me about the reputation was it really already in war almost the post but because for instance carve-outs looked at the tiger reputation and he know that he looked at the Chairman Walkinshaw and you know that Bailey comes up and for the tiger the this mythical reputation certainly seems to be coming mostly post while if Belton Cooper it always kind of see it seems like that way and to a certain degree in computer games I mean there are probably several generations but I'd so you probably know the whole probably didn't help but there was definitely a lot of concern even even in North Africa if he saw a tiger it was mentioned in the after-action reports that we're pretty sure this was a tiger and now part of it was also because it was also used as strategic intelligence because wherever a tiger was seen there was a reason that the tiger battalion was there I don't know I'm about the Sherman the Sherman reputation that if the negative reputation then when did it come up because early 45 I think was this was a big newspaper scandal in the US and there were there were cartoons in the newspapers and so on and the the General Staff had go out make statements but know this isn't true and Patton wrote a statement this isn't true this was the questionnaire in Eisenhower did it in encounters with which the answer of spielberger printed in the book I think quite possible yeah so it was a thing back in in the world back in the war and then after the war you see letters like general lerczak at the time was a colonel battalion commander he writes this is what was going on in the newspaper and you could think about it like this this is why the Sherman was a better tank and again if you haven't seen I'll send you the link it's it's it's simply written from the perspective of very very tank battalion commander of Sherman's in 1945 he wrote it I think in 1946 but it was busy 40 by too busy to write essays responding to what is basically the 1945 version of an Internet argument but between armchair warriors down so basically it was to a certain degree because the press push it up and then patent coupon orders through upon this and the very well may have been a bit of cross contamination there but Cooper may have been one of the people who was writing to the press and 1945 saying this is a problem do you know when the you need five Sherman's to kill Montag MF came up or was a Penta or a different number it's fine it's I've heard fighter at Agra fire to a panther I strongly suspect that it wasn't a necessary thing it was just the amount of vehicles that you tended to go with because the Americans usually had reasonably full strength buttons if not five four times to a platoon because a lot of replacement thanks for most of the war and if the enemy had anything and he wanted to send tanks you sent five tanks so if the enemy has a stronger shot you send five tanks you don't leave one behind and granted the Germans did try as much as possible not to send singleton units here but if you going up against more than a couple of tanks you don't send a tank platoon you send a tank company and now all of a sudden you have 17 tanks going up against a couple of couple enemy tanks and it's not a matter of the enemy tanks are better than our so we need more it's a matter of just common sense you need to have a ratio advantage when you're attacking and that's exactly what they did we knew what we were attacking in platoon we need a company the base was my doctrine and a real statement like you need that one yes I mean and I think it just kind of got converted that way that's correct oh well what you do is you would decoy with five ten or ten tanks and then it said five around the corner or whatever it was the ratio go look up an infantry tactics manual for today and you're gonna have a base of fire and you're gonna have a maneuver element this is not oh my god the enemy have better machine guns than we do this is simple bloody tactics and there's another line in the manual that people like to quote that says if faced by a superior enemy force fall back and call artillery to fall back and draw into the tank destroyers as soon as it's coming is there a line in the infantry manual or the tank manual of any nation that says if faced by a superior enemy force Sherman there are reasons why it has the reputations that it commonly does the reputations I think are overblown missed misdirected what but I mean I cannot sit here and tell you that this was perfectly armored and had a perfect gun at all time it did never perfect gun even wonder 76 came out why didn't they develop a hate strap around until after they said hey this gun isn't killing the enemies like it's supposed to what's it that hard to develop well it wasn't because I developed it in a month but they should have developed it ahead of time just in case but outside of that so yeah there are reasons why did they had a reputation but it was still a good thing and speaking of tanks this brings us to responds of this episode the free-to-play game wall of Tanks which made the strip and collaboration possible in the first place now if you want to get started with world of tanks they provide a special code for new players that gives them immediate access to the T 127 tank 5 hunting called premium currency and 7 days of premium time if you use the link in the description model of Tanks features over 500 tanks including the Panzer compounds X tiger the t-34 the Sherman the Matilda and the s 35 so if you want to ambush one or more of the million players worldwide head on in of course you can also charge in until it out up close and personal since both tanks allows for many different playstyles thank you to all of tanks for sponsoring this episode be sure to check out the link in the description and also a big THANK YOU to Mike skip mazing rubber up and everyone else from Volvo to Elmo and of course chieftain thank you very much see you next time bye bye as always sauces are linked in description thank you for watching and see you next time

Channel: Military History not Visualized

Views: 139,600

Rating: 4.9086337 out of 5

Keywords: Military History not Visualized, Military History, mhv, Sherman: Why the bad Reputation?, Sherman, Chieftain, World of Tanks, D-Day Ohio, D-Day Ohio Conneaut, World War 2, WW2, Tanks, Panzer, Sponsored, Ad, Nicholas Moran, WW2 Armor

Id: Bxac3-aVVKQ

Length: 21min 6sec (1266 seconds)

Published: Tue Aug 27 2019

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[u/MaxRavenclaw]

14:16 for the footage.