Shapiro: Your redefinition of socialist to mean free markets, where workers are
participating in a free market, is bizarre to me. It also runs wildly anti- frankly, the basic texts of Marxism, like the Communist Manifesto. Student: Full disclosure,
I am a socialist. [audience laughter] So much for the tolerant right. So, my question is about... Shapiro: You're here, right? We'll treat you well, don't worry. Student: So my question is, I've seen your videos, I've seen you at other universities, here, talking about the immorality of socialism. When you do, you focus on socialism as the idea of wealth redistribution, taking from the rich giving to the poor, taking from whoever giving to whoever, but I think that ignores and that misses the point of
what many socialists, myself and many of my comrades,
see socialism as being. Setting aside any notions
of wealth redistribution, someone already asked about that, what is so immoral about believing that a worker is entitled to
the full value of their labor? Shapiro: So, if you're
asking whether I'm okay with, for example private sector
unions, workers get together and they go to the owner and they say, "We want more of the profit margin," sure. As long as you're
not kneecapping somebody. Right? But if you kneecap somebody, then I don't approve
of your means anymore. If you're asking me if a bunch of workers decide to get together and form a joint stock
corporation, of course, that's how most corporations are formed. Most LLCs are formed this way. It's a couple of guys who got together, band their labor together, it's like two guys. And then, after it grows, they
decide to hire other people. So we need to be very
specific. When you talk about the ownership of the means of production, are you talking about my version? Because that's called capitalism. Or are you talking about
where the government owns the means of production and or crams down on voluntary
associations rules as to the means of production? Student: I'm actually talking about neither. I reject state socialism, personally. What I'm referring to is specifically for example, the term given
is worker cooperatives, the most prominent example,
the Mondragon Corporation in Spain, there is no investor or capitalist group that owns the profits. When the company turns a profit,
that profit is distributed among the workers, some 80,000 employees. It's a wildly successful corporation. Shapiro: Is it a voluntary association? Is there any cramdown happening? Student: No, there's not.
Shapiro: Then good. It's capitalist. That's not socialist. Student: It's not... Shapiro: That's free markets by nature. Student: That's simply not
what capitalism is though. The term capitalism
was coined in the 1850s by a French socialist named Louis Blanc to describe how such an occurrence.. Shapiro: Right, as a
derogatory term, right? I should actually use
the term free market. It is a free market system when voluntarism is associated with it. Student: So that assumes that markets are unique to capitalism. That capitalism has the
sole claim on markets. When no one has... Shapiro: You're not arguing for anything that is non-voluntary, that violates any single
prescription of free markets that I have laid forth. So I'm wondering if
we're just arguing over, you're saying that my free
market terminology is actually socialist terminology, then
we're arguing over semantics. What is it about what I have said that you actually don't
like, I'm still wondering? Student: All right. Well, what I don't like
about what you've said, I believe it's intellectually
dishonest for you to lay unequivocal claim for
capitalism on the market system and simply say, all right, that's it. I believe that's intellectually dishonest. I think it misrepresents
what socialism is. Shapiro: There's not a
single theorist of markets who would disagree with a single
proposition that I've laid at the roots of what markets are, not one. There's not one. And your redefinition of socialists to mean free markets where
workers are participating in a free market is bizarre to me. It is also runs wildly anti- frankly, the basic texts of Marxism,
like the Communist Manifesto.
