Seven Nobel Laureates discuss: The search for truth

so we've called this session the search for truth I shan't introduce everybody I think you've met everybody already but just to name them Michael Levitt Frank will check Peter Doherty sharing a body Steven Chu David gross and Joseph Stiglitz we've called it the search for truth because in a way in their own disciplines that is what unites them their search for truth but something else that unites them as Nobel laureates is the creativity they employ in that search and so I'd like to begin by discussing that creativity and let's start by trying to work out what we mean by the term creativity I'm looking for some enthusiasm for that question in their eyes I've got some good Michael so creativity is really interesting that if you ask anyone who's creative where it comes from they don't usually know I haven't met anybody who gets up in the morning and writes on a list saying things to be creative about and then I don't know I know I did that item to it seems to come from walking the dog taking showers watching TV and doing something which is actually non-scientific so I think creativity is a mysterious thing it's also clear that there are people who were serial creative people but I think it's very difficult to know what really makes it I think there's a certain level of messiness that makes me creative David well you know unfortunately I think all of us will agree we have no idea where creativity comes from and that's quite unfortunate because if we know we could teach it and we can't at least we know ways of encouraging it but not teaching it but I think it's clearly related to our illusion that the conscious eye is somehow in control of even our thoughts so I'm I haven't had the experience of you know in situations like this being asked provocative questions like you just asked and then saying something not in this occasion I've said it before I'm saying something that is novel and new and creative and surprises me and I said my god that's interesting I've never heard that before so it comes from some other place that is not conscious I have no doubt and these the brain consists of many parts we understand now is neuroscience different modules creativity is located somewhere there and is a surprise often to the conscious self so I have no idea what it is there are ways however a foster in it and just just to follow up what conditions do you find yourself most creative in is there something you can point to I think what is what definitely motivates creativity is concentration you know just concentrating in a bulldog fashion on a problem and then that encourages the unconscious mind you know the part of our brain that actually does the works the work away and then come up with a new idea a new way of looking at things which but how it happens I have no idea but concentration is crucial enthusiasm is growing Frank Lin Joe Francis well first my personal experience my best work I think has come from immersing myself in some subject some problem and then getting annoyed really something something could be better something or there there have been unexplored possibilities but I also resonate with what David said is very similar question and a couple of days ago in a similar venue and said something along those lines a little different that our brain indeed consists of it is a community it's different pieces that have different skills different languages and some of them are logical some of them are pattern recognition you might say aesthetic because they want patterns to click and make sense and I think at least one important ingredient of creativity is to get all these guys communicating and pulling in the same direction and so that's the process of mazes people call it intuition you see a pattern you don't you you kind of identify a goal but you don't know how to get there logically and then you we construct some path it doesn't always work doesn't always exist but when it exists that's the important creative process Jeff yeah I want to just add one one dimensions which is a questioning of what you you were taught before or the standard model so it begins with with discounting you know a skepticism of and I also think it begins as I said not with a question of wanting to answer something that is wrong with what is the standard wisdom and then finally one other ingredient is is this being exposed to ideas that are very different and the the process of how those ideas meet the problem and scepticism is a very mystical one but you have to be exposed to these other sources of ideas so that you can this creative melting pot occurs how could anyone possibly think that is often a very moving I want to get everybody's views on this one so Steve first and then Sharon Steve well for me it's a few things a rebellious streak not willing to accept things as you hear them but also when I go into a new field that's where I think I get the most excited I you know unencumbered with knowledge and this is a very good thing but I would also link with people who are experts in the field who were willing to put up with questions like what about this and you know they would have to patient explain to me no that's not right or yes but someone else has thought about that and maybe in one or two percent of the times they will say hmm let's think some more and so it they have those collaborators be willing to put up with you and teach you and includes my students and postdocs that is actually for me the most exciting time and that's why you know i lurk around thank you so sure anybody in that man oh yeah smack oh yeah I love the at that mr. Hoyer loom change our laureate house / kadhai well first a man who will get tougher with Makani now the meaning of creativity differs from spiritus fear so it's what how I see creativity is different from the definition is given by my esteemed scientists colleagues Mohammed Rabie don't bother it Ola to them if Simon Kadam Cavallini battle a battle over a doughnut HTML II penny sir I have always been in pursuit of justice to that end I have always tried to come up with ideas for legislation towards implementation of social justice a month calathea tomorrow and before a judge in the government in Bamako some mere fact that a sudden ask about food is such a powerful to Kaname any my lamb spoken a baby done me a Dorothy Ann ship I am come creative when I actually immerse myself in an idea and to see how for example can fight injustice bah bahah Miguel de tucumán the geeky as a core hi Johanna shame economy nazca ball home nestled by your affordable hanuman hot dog am underneath the water so one of the things I do to that end is to constantly try and be in touch with homeless or displaced people this is a lot neater and I learned so much from them by thinking each guest zone row miss Lamaze room Nimmi tuna by Johanna because no one can actually speak about oppression as somebody who's been oppressed but I think usually she's zero - sadly over a mere row her Hal han fei Connie Mota both had Roberta fastest da-da-da-dum funny so the key is first to understand a problem and then draw on your own experiences and skills in a bit to find solutions to that problem I'm on Mohammed assuming a bonus get Olivia tomorrow medulla arrow do you see or see without them we caught it but one thing I need to stress is that our creativity is of no use without political results you need best arena for hysteria LaVon in Barrow am arthanori a dollar is Zamani Matawa not Mephibosheth a k EA ki hukumat a Democrat Mahad is Rajesh Khanna in other words the best opinions and the best legislation can only be effective towards establishment of justice if there is a democratic government to implement those opinions my DS thank you thank you very much indeed and again it brings out the ideas of concentration and exposure to other influences which is so important and has been brought out by others Peter you haven't spoken on this one yet Oh creativity in science I think most of it's been said often happens discovery insight novelty often happens when you come into a field from outside so you're not trapped by the perceptions of the field which can be stopped a fiying I mean I think we all know scientists are actually terrified of discovering anything because it would put them outside the norm and they'd feel very uncomfortable about you you can't be that sort of personality creativity can come Francis Crick and Jim Watson two very different personalities different backgrounds talked and talked and talked backwards and forwards backwards and forwards annoyed everybody else dragged stuff out from this person and that person stole everything and made a synthesis very creative Crick after he and Watson split up did the same thing with Sydney Brenner you've got three Nobel Prize winners there so creativity's right across society and all sorts of different ways and all sorts of different people I think it the creative person can often be an extremely annoying person they're annoying to be around I see things differently from the way that everybody else sees them makes them very discomforting they're not particularly like them social outcasts at times creativity's you've mentioned the immersion concentration how important in your own lives has creativity been as opposed to just good hard work that's one for the graduates to listen who wants to take that Peter oh well a lot of breakthroughs in biomedical science actually come from better technology and and we we'd have to ask the answer thank you physicists often for that and chemists and all the rest of it because you're worrying about a problem you're seeing a problem and you're not seeing it because you don't see clearly enough so so it's often is the biblical saying you know through a glass darkly we see impact and then you see better and when you see better you understand better and you measure better because science is about measurement and if we're talking about truth you know that these are universals that we've talking about the future of truth today well basically the truth for science hasn't changed at all in 400 years I mean the basically the mechanisms are the same the rules are the same the product is the same so that that that is the future sciences it's when it's the future of truth in the broader context that weakens we're concerned about so yeah I actually try to avoid hard work when things look when things look complicated and difficult to that's often a sign that there's a different way a better way to do it [Laughter] there are a few as I said ways of promoting creativity and and I think Steve talked about one of them which is going to dick going into a new field or posing a new question which is not necessarily yet a discovery but just approaching a new question that most people ignore because they think it's too hard or because it is too hard and and so empty territory is a great place for creativity it's very easy to come up with the first I'd good ideas in the field and once breakthroughs are then made the easy ones the crowd rushes in and it gets harder and harder yeah science is also over 400 years developed enormously we now have millions of scientists mm-hmm there used to be hundreds and it's so one lesson - I try to tell my students and give them hints as to how to be successful as a creative productive scientist is to go where the crowds aren't yeah Steve sorry Mike okay so just very quickly what Peter said majal career I've been trying to develop instruments invent new instruments and because I realize there's so many more people smarter than me and but if you are the first to look under a rock with a new instrument you don't have to be smart and and so that and so continuing just you know okay what new instrument or what new method or what new technique or what new now nanoprobe it's and so I try to teach people who are equally incompetent and dumb that invents a new instrument invent a new method and then the world opens up Michael you are going to do so I guess like Frank most of my work is being theoretical and just thinking back as I have lost a couple of minutes I think most of the time you're just working hard but I would guess I probably had I don't know five or six good ideas in my life so firstly it's an amazing feeling it's it's a high that is really incredible when you get it sometimes they don't work out maybe I've had ten ideas and half of them didn't work out but I think in some ways it's one of the reasons why being a scientist is so great to have an idea to feel it's gonna be okay and then so you work it out and it comes out to be okay so I think in some ways creative ideas are the very heart about the best part about thank you Joe well I'm an economist and some of the people here would add out the use of the word science for what I you know and doubt whether we should have an Nobel Prize for economics no no you do say that but but I want to make two points one I agree very strongly that concentration is important and in something some kind of hard work but sometimes people who work very hard don't you know because they're looking in the wrong place and this is where I think economics is different from the other subjects which is it's not usually a new instrument that you know our new data set so if you take say a problem like inequality it was obviously sitting there it was that the ideology was so strong that nobody wanted to talk about or the question of the existence of imperfect information that was a question where they didn't know how to think about this mathematically and we're afraid to go there so in both of those cases it was it was not a new discovery but the facts were obvious but it was really the the willingness or the saying this is probably important and you ought to concentrate your mind to figure out whether it is or not and how it affects our discipline Thank You Sharon it strikes me that hard work is at the very core of the achievements you've been able to AlphaTech or easier dressage Mahal Manohar mafia teaser really can go it's of course it's obvious that hard work is necessary for any kind of achievement well again in Safari kisaku Sheba is the heart of man but this kind of hard work and diligence must have must be targeted is the motor mark especially through your own qaddafi k13 Bobby hadn't had a ph is a regular stay in over half inch I did worship and so you have to concentrate on that goal and of course it would be good if that is an innovative idea and it's a new idea there is a man cattle pSATS Zod nervous to show there when it can be torn up again what a Stefani I sat on her yech half for hey Dom miss about home of the lift a coruña in my field of work many books have been written but regrettably a lot of them are constantly repeating the same things once again more handmade asking a veteran or Arabic what is important is to come up with a new idea and figure in know that Assad a hollow as is other physical channel Rishabha Horschel and care scientist came with a house aluminum enjoy much movie something approachable back spoken of as foyer ahamkara number four seed answer to for scientific new ideas I'm glad I'm not a physicist and I don't need to worry about that kind of new ideas so you can ask my esteemed colleagues about that here thank you ok well we're running very close to the end let's change tack slightly we've had a meeting about the future of truth and I think it might be appropriate to end by saying asking you whether you feel hopeful for the future of truth or not you're nodding Michael does that mean you are I'm definitely optimistic as I said before I think the changing the practically Western world is becoming the whole world at least in terms of ideals of capitalism and wanting to invent things and improve standards of living I think this is really hopeful because it means that no one has a monopoly of everything Frank very optimistic because I think the nature of the truth is that it builds and accumulates whereas errors fall away so in the long run truth will win in the end I've been fine with Senate reality can't be denied it's just a matter of how the process of how you get there the process that we use in science to get there don't don't really change and I don't I think within science that we've had certain issues with fraud and so forth I think that modern technology really defeats much of that and we're not gonna see the problem the problem is to get our political and masters and broader society to accept those trees before they become really dangerous right thank you so at the point of having three scientists views we're optimistic now Shirin Ebadi I am there come out unabashedly evil baby shuffle the future of civilization is going towards progress phidias is like you lose the role your boudoir Bashar yet Nene Milan at the fall of the day there are many things that were merely dreams for Humanity and now they have actually materialized chandrasana Raja MiraCosta vodka Donovan so but like I'm a nobody misery Yemen so as Lucas 12 is that I'm here in a lot of evolution since everyone else has focused on the United States except me let me say a few words about the you us to make sure that there's been justice [Laughter] [Applause] Ambika afro there Tellis if his safety post-sorna burdened while only being in care praise Joe yes now far as someone after other traders say feet first device John who showed a genre she knows can safely pull a hammer Oh Madonna - bad own wrangling who's there sad if you gonna pass Melanie chocolate on meat on a piece of toast oh there was a time in the United States when no african-american had any freedom and then suddenly an African American became President of the United States and very popular and then after that he was succeeded by a white American yet we can see how this white American is now being criticized and that African American is being praised by a body that is hideous is like a Emma's mother Moreau yours that I and a half of a zero so that is why a lot of things that today we see just as a dream or bound to materialize in the future thank you that's a hard act to follow Steve Buerger yes I'm optimistic scientists have to be optimistic because we fail most of the time because we're trying to do some new things and so and that you know to be brief I think choose well Trump Trump you know the AI scientists are generally optimistic sometimes however they are pessimistic but most of the time they're optimistic I've pondered that and I've come to the conclusion that partly that's because science is not easy it's difficult and they optimist simply as a pessimist simply quit so the only people who survive and succeed are the after this so I am very much an optimist I believe that science will survive Trump of course and truth will ultimately prevail because what else is there - so but we should be wary of overly being overly optimistic even with rock obama and so on humanity has gone through declines in the past in the recent past in the last two millennium it's not always been progress the Roman Empire fell apart in Europe and led to a thousand years of dark ages and and non truth so we should be careful and vigilant and make sure that we Trump Trump it's it's okay it's hard to be over overly optimistic if you're a British just at the moment you know Jeff well economists are known as to the dismal science and while I do agree that over the long run to throw will prevail Keynes had this very famous statement of in the long run we're all dead and I I'm a little bit with David here saying worried about the the battle that is going to be going on over the immediate future and I don't think it is obvious so that that what will happen and unless there is really very active opposition the the words of whether Trump will trumpet or not it's really still open in the air thank you very much indeed okay sadly that is it we're out of time I would like to thank us our partners who make all this possible that's Carl Burnett a be the city of Gothenburg Ericsson and I always dread this one the Radian vestra Yertle and also our supporters in stainless difícil s'en that's also difficult for reverberate I would particularly like to thank all our participants today and our assembled Nobel laureates and also especially you the audience for being here thank you all and see you in Stockholm in 2018 [Applause]

Channel: Nobel Prize

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Id: EMkJC-2Zl5s

Length: 28min 6sec (1686 seconds)

Published: Fri Jan 31 2020