Sensibly Speaking Podcast #176: Scientology is Psychological Waterboarding ft. Bree Mood

[Music] [Applause] and we are recording every yeah it's been a few years hasn't it I remember I actually remember that conversation or project or whatever you want to call it that little thing I was on when I went into Valley org and you and other people were there and I was trying to I don't know what was I trying to do again what was I do you know you were trying to convince me to put spin on the TTC and Jasmine if York was unfortunate girl very like you very overweight very she was there because her mom ran milk and so we all had to be at her because that's right because I knew that you had policy behind you you're you were backed up by l ron Hubbard policy but I was the Sea Org member who had to go get somebody on the TTC in Valley and this was you know when we were in management we would get these lists of names from the orgs and they were like no policy and I was like I'll kill you all right we'll do it that's right because that's kind of what it comes down to is it's like my orders are more important because that's the orders that's command intention from yeah command attention is [ __ ] you so that's what we're gonna do I guess that's right we're gonna do it yeah we'll pick it up later okay well hey guys so we are here okay so why don't you introduce yourself free because nobody really knows we'll pick this up here just excited ologist I stopped a regular local church when I was fifteen and then when I was 28 during the Sea Org I told I spent two years of my life working for salah g and then a couple months ago in October 2018 I ran away in the middle of the night and got on the plane i flew halfway across the country to live with i had never met before in order to escape scientology right right and that was that was very brave that was very foolhardy in some ways very brave and others you know could have turned out much worse well that's the thing and I was just about to say I mean foolish is a strong word for this because you were in a fairly untenable situation you're in the destructive call you're in the Sea Org so you are a sea org member yes right important distinction because that's a huge distinction there are very few circumstances that I can have where just a Scientologist or even a staff member would need to no way in order to escape this part you know you're not a senior member and you have it's as simple as just slowly stopping going to events stopping going on course stopping picking your phone a little harder if you're a staff member but even and you know you can just you can more or less just a resigned staff as long as you're willing to say like I have a giant bill that I'm never gonna pay it's fairly easy to do this as a sirak member it's extremely exactly exactly of so many questions so many people talk about and I and I am purposefully doing this wide open right now I've got no outline no set of questions I got nothing is I just want yeah I just want to want to see where this goes how long were you in Scientology are you a second gen so technically it's a little bit of a blurred line I was not born into Scientology but my mom and my dad divorced when I was young and my mom remarried and got into Scientology also when I was very young when I was seven or eight so I was raised in Scientology my mom had primary custody so you know I grew up with it I didn't consider myself a Scientologist until I was like 14 15 you know my dad was not a Scientologist there was a lot of like family tension about it but I went to a Scientology school I went to an applied scholastics school so at a certain point most of my friends were then Scientologists and they were all second gen and where was this all happening this was in California this was in the San Fernando Valley and I went to a school called Renaissance Academy which I think still exists and operates somewhere but I think it's much smaller than it was when I went there when I went there it was in melaka tiada area okay okay yeah I grew up in Pasadena oh yeah so we were I mean we have a lot of a lot of parallels actually in our school do it's really funny yeah well it's you know it kind of speaks to the cult enos you know everybody's gonna kind of go through a lot of the same stuff so okay so you're a teen how old are you now I 27 okay good so this is you know 10 years 15 years ago ish something like that yeah yeah like about 15 years ago something like that okay and how did you go from you know okay your mom's a Scientologist your dad's not public Scientologist go into Academy you know Renaissance Academy how does that turn into staff member and then see orc member so there were a couple of things one was I got sent to the freewinds when I was like 14 something like that they used to do this thing called the the future ot convention I don't know if you remember that always it was that teen week that was teen week yes I remember oh yeah that was big mm-hmm and it was like two weeks and all these teenagers went and aged like 12 to 18 and really it was just recruitment it was a whole thing designed to a I you know recruit teens into the Sea Org and then if they didn't join well you know at least they went to a cruise ship and had fun they're like wow this is what psychology is all about it's this cruise ship where we can go do this stuff and it's amazing which totally is what happened with me I was like yeah this is great like I want to do this all the time sure I'll totally join you know any mean if this is what it's about it's awesome right and what that moment what was your idea of what it was all about what were you what was the imagery what we've told what were you thinking well I was thinking I mean first of all obviously like being on a ship I have always had a huge personal connection with the ocean I grew up my mom lived in the San Fernando Valley my dad lived at Venice Beach so I just grew up with the ocean and that just personally is a huge thing for me that I love just totally aside from anything else but then there was you know it's a huge you're helping people and it's a crusade and you can have this group and everybody is there with like the same purpose and you know everybody's noticed actions no one's gonna be trying to get you to do other stuff when all you want to do is help people like that is a huge thing I do really I still want to help people I still want to find a way to you know make the world a better place and make the world better for people on an individual level it's just it gets so grossly misrepresented in recruitment and to individual Scientologists of what it's all about and you get told is this thing that is there you know to selflessly help others to the point of martyrdom first a fancy York you know like who's gonna say no to that if something is is just to represent it to you as like the only reason this exists is to help other people like wow you don't want to do this you're a [ __ ] [ __ ] and that is a thing I mean that's how it's used and I think a lot of us you know we got I mean I think that I think the right way to describe it is we got preyed on oh absolutely I mean I was there I was there 14 years old big group of other people you know other people my age a little older than me signing Cioran contracts getting you know huge amounts of praise and you know fanfare and love bombs and like you know who-who wouldn't want to be part of that as like a teenager like yeah totally plus for where I was at like I was just about to graduate high school I ended up graduating when I was 15 and especially in California with child labor laws how they are they're like no one's gonna hire a 15 year old even if they have a high school diploma you know you mean that's not a thing and college is really looked at as like other fish and meaning yeah what does that mean so yes that is other fish I'm telling you so other fish it comes from a policy letter letter that was written mail or numbered which basically says in paraphrasing in order to have a successful church in order to have a successful org you need to have everybody working there without any other fish to fry meaning no other things that are important to them in their life that they need to concentrate on so you know taken at face value that's just like oh yeah you know I work at the organ stead of playing video games which is like okay yeah like sure I can that's understandable but what the lengths that it gets taken to is like well you want to see your parents for Christmas that's other fish oh you want some time off so you can do your laundry that's other fish exactly it was we used to we used to joke about fish fries yeah you know we're gonna go have a fish fry over there yeah they're going off to go do a fish fry cuz you know at some barbecue because they're too busy to come to course they're just off doing a fish fry you know exactly exactly it was yeah we also made that joke not a lot of jokes in Scientology that's that's wonderful you know you can only respond on things that actually said or did that he thought was funny then it's okay otherwise you're a joker integrator and a horrible god forbid you ever make a joke about anything because you you are in so much trouble if you joke about Scientology at all ever no laughing that's right it's not a laughing matter serious deadly serious activity you know deadly serious activity yeah that's right that's right gotta get rid of this guy I love that shirt did I did I show you my Xenu there we go there we go Oh what does that say below that can you see that yeah oh you worry princess office awesome I love it yeah perfect as much as I like now exactly if you wore this shirt into a Scientology Church oh you'd be security guards would be called just because you were wearing that shirt like if you well Chris if you walked into a door what you wearing doesn't matter what you're wearing right they would still call security but if a random person walked into an ORAC wearing a shirt that said Xenu on it oh my lord physically escorted from the premises that's right that's right there be a whole incident report written up about it right oh I would love to see a Scientologist it would be perfect at an AO you know everybody would just [ __ ] lose their [ __ ] you'd walk in there and be like what what's the problem I just learned about this this is great it sidenote when I was 15 just turned 16 and I had just joined staff I got sent to flagged for training my dad was not a Scientologist and this was right around the time that the original South Park episode came out and in order to get approved to Train like so this is here something really dumb flag puts tons of pressure on classified works to send trainees and you have to put together a huge packet of information their entire life history you know interrogation worksheets huge amounts of information about them just to get them approved and if they ever you know had a suicidal thought one time in their life they're not allowed to go to flag and if they ever watched gay porn they're not allowed to go to flag and you know you know all this but I'm sort of oh yeah no I did this for years but yeah yes go ahead you know what I'm talking about so then you know and it's this huge exhaustive process there six or seven different people at flag who have to read this whole chunky thing and sign off on it and say yeah you know we think this person will do well here they can come so then or buys the plane ticket person gets all packed up they go to flag they get there and then they sit and wait sometimes for a week sometimes for two weeks because they have to as soon as they arrive get a new interrogation done get a whole new chunky packet information compiled re-verify everything that was already sent just to make sure they're not going to be a threat to flag so I was sent with the information in my packet that said you know my dad's not a Scientologist I have friends that are not Scientologists my best friend's a lesbian oh wait what your best friend is a lesbian what I know right yeah one one anti so my god I know I know so I got there right and I started waited and I sat I waited for probably like four days and here's me they took away my cell phone because they do that when you get there even if you're a staff member not see or if I still take away your cell phone lock it up somewhere so you can't contact the outside world without permission and after like four days they pull me into a room and then say okay good so we went through all your files and before you're actually gonna be allowed to go in the course room or anything you need to disconnect from your best friend you can't ever talk to her again and you need to handle your dad on you know Scientology and I was like okay so I started crying and I will never forget this do you do you remember Anna hijiri oh god yes I worked with Jerry Anna Jerry is the one who did my handling and I will never forget this I'm the sitting man she went to flag down my face yeah I don't know why I think she was doing an apprenticeship but she's the one doing my handling I'm sitting there I had just turned 16 this was like a few weeks after my birthday tears streaming down my face and she goes oh are you sad because you need to disconnect from your lesbian one one best friend man up and I was like oh wow so I said yes I disconnect and just you know didn't talk to her while I was at flag totally lied she's like I could great yeah disconnected like fine so then they're like this now you need to call your dad so I call my dad and he's like well I just saw this episode of South Park and he told me all about it and I was like he told me the whole episode right and I was like ya know that's not a thing because I was I hadn't even done a purif like I hadn't done the purification rundown that had no auditing like hardly at all so of course I'm sitting here going like that's insane like no that's I mean that's cool that you saw it but that's a total lie so you know and handled him and did the whole thing and there would with someone listening in on an extension of course because they need to make sure that they can trust me and you know that I actually handled him they had me sign a bond that I was never allowed to discuss you know that episode of South Park with anyone or reveal anything that my dad had said in that phone conversation was the person who was listening in do you know if they were ot I have no idea okay I was just curious I have no clue yeah you know this was because I just want to point out what happens is the guys who are ot will tell you well that's not really what's on it it's different than that and the people who haven't done it will tell you well that's just [ __ ] that's just a bunch of lies that's not really what's on ot3 even though they have no idea whatsoever so no one in Scientology whether they've done it or not will actually verify to you oh yeah no it's all about Xena oh yeah yeah no for sure I mean I know that at the time I was just like that's weird it's a South Park episode like you can bond me but like okay yep anyway and a bond a bond meaning that you had to pay like what ten thousand dollars or something if you something like that it's like I signed a document at age 16 saying you know I promise and if I ever discussed this with anyone I'll pay the church ten thousand dollars which [ __ ] come and get it I want my divorce paper and by the way yep yeah good times so okay so this all goes up with you at flag or you're even allowed on to the training oh yeah totally it and then it took about two weeks before they finally said okay yeah now you're allowed to go into the course room right okay it's just the shirts reminded me of that but there's so much backstory that I had to tell in order for anybody to understand it totally oh and and I think most people watching this are gonna understand that it's a it's a complicated subject there's a lot to it you know I've put a lot of interviews and and information up about it because it is so complicated and and kind of hard to get into the when you get into weeds on it it gets a little weird the broad strokes are fairly understandable it's a destructive cult it's bad for people you know they shouldn't be part of it oh yeah but then you start going as soon as you question one thing like well if it's so destructive why were you part of it for so long and then you're just off you're off to the races because there's no simple answer exactly so why were you part of it uh well there's no simple answer um so partly I was raised in it that's what my mom was doing my mom joined staff the valley org which was in the San Fernando Valley and she joined when I was like eight something like that my little brother was six so she would do her day job and then come home make us dinner and go to her night job at the org if we ever really wanted to see her we would just go to the Lord with her or when we were really small so my stepdad would go on course or he would go in session a lot of the time when we were so small we couldn't stay at home by ourselves and of course our parents couldn't afford childcare because all their money was going to the org so we would just go to the Lord with our mom and hanging out with other staff kids run around you know I always grew up in Pasadena mission you know it's exactly the same thing you know there's a certain expectation some Scientology families have that expectation especially when the parents are on staff there's an expectation that you know the kids will also join staff and like follow that family legacy a lot of orgs are family based and it's two or three just large families that make up most of the staff unit you noticed that too yeah for sure I mean we're also they got a recruit from yeah well it's not commented on very often but it's true that most of these organization the class 5 or the city level orgs I call them really have like two or three families that are keeping them afloat and people it's really sad too because a lot of the time those families are they're really a part of the legacy of the Orang but they're also like heavily impoverished they don't ever have personal time they know that they're counted on to keep the organs afloat and so they never take time off they spend all their money on the work it sucks it taught my heart goes out to them my heart [ __ ] bleeds for them because even though what they're doing is not what they think they're doing and they are keeping a dangerous cult alive they think they're helping people and they're doing it because they are dedicated good people they're not doing it because they're evil and like I don't support Scientology and it should be abolished it should not have tax-exempt status and it should not be classified as a religion but past attempts to make that known have gone into you know protesting and bomb threats and violence and harassment of you know religious workers there and that's that also breaks my heart because they are not bad people I I don't there are very few city level workers that I know of that are bad people or ever try to make life uncomfortable for other people like some of the best people I know are still Scientologists and it makes me sad that I can't be friends with them anymore and I can't have that connection with them anymore because there's a lot of them that I absolutely would consider to be family and because I decided that I needed to escape I no longer get to have those connections and that's part of the choice that I made so yeah well unfortunately wasn't really your choice totally because the church enforces disconnection of members you know it's not like I think people in Scientology they wouldn't give a [ __ ] if you left Scientology and we're no longer part of it and weren't really doing services anymore yeah they'd say something but they wouldn't feel compelled to ah your way for me oh my god you know it's the it's the church who puts that no that's that's absolutely true and I mean we're definitely off in the weeds on this one and we've completely diverted from your original question but just as like a side note I was talking to somebody about this today on on Facebook I don't know if I've been declared nobody has answered that question nobody will get in contact with me nobody will answer any questions I'm still legally married to a seorak member and I I want the divorce papers I can't get ahold of anybody to get divorce papers so eventually that will happen but yeah so I mean technically I don't know if I've been declared theoretically I could just walk into the Twin Cities or tomorrow and be like so am i declared or what like can I see my declare order and if they say no you don't have a declare murder on you I'll just start calling people like what are they gonna do well I mean you are free now to do what you want that's the beauty of this now remind everybody when did you leave 2018 okay so this is your fresh off the boat I have just fallen off the turnip truck yeah well I wouldn't put it that way but I would say that that you are newly out and I have actually really taken my time putting this interview together because I wanted you to have the time to you know get yourself settled I think you were the first person I contacted after I left MIT the first former Scientologists that I got in touch with about three I think it was like three days after I got here something like that so and you may have gone over this before in your show and in your podcast and everything but you're not allowed to look at any anti-scientology material when you're a Scientologist you're not allowed to Google Scientology you're not allowed to watch Lea's show you're not allowed to watch any documentaries really even allowed to think about wanting to do those things so it was a totally foreign concept to me and it took me like a solid three or four days of being here across the country before I even realized that I could look at these things so I and I realized it on my way to my first therapy appointment taboos yeah you laughs it's so good to me that you got out and as quickly as you did you had a you you were making a beeline for a therapist yes and that's very very rare I wouldn't have actually done it on my own so jumping around a little bit part of my escape story is that I met a stranger on Reddit parental advisory do not try this at home [Laughter] reddit was your egg my escape route so I met a stranger on reddit and within 48 hours he had agreed to help me escape he had been involved I think with Anonymous in the past or some sort of protest efforts against Scientology so is very lucky in that respect but because it was so fast he basically made stipulations of if I was gonna come live with him you know you must do these things so my having a roof over my head depended on me going to therapy getting a job getting a car like doing these basic things so I had you add that to you know 12 years of always working with the heat of God on you to get the next thing done and her stop I just never really switched out of that mode so I I just hit the ground running and and immediately did that so you know some of the credit does go to him for saying like hey you can come live with me as a stranger but you need therapy he wasn't wrong so you know and I know that it will be a contentious issue too you know amongst people who are watching this to think oh my god you can't force therapy on somebody but it you know in this case it seems to have worked out just fine yeah I was fine and what I ended up doing was I went to a women's health advocacy group and I just I saw a counselor she's not she wasn't a licensed psychologists or therapists or anything like that she was a volunteer who had completed the state mandated training and you know just really the basic basic definition of a counselor or a basic definition of a therapist just somebody who I could go to and be like here's what's going on with me like you know give me some resources give me some advice so you know it worked out really well and it was totally fine but my point here is sounds like three four days after I first got here I finally realized I was allowed to see what the what is the evil internet say about Scientology oh my god so I went on reddit of course to the Scientology sub and the top post on there is Chris's AMA which was super fun actually I read through the whole thing it was great it was very very accurate very well-written thank you some of the questions are very funny come up really funny questions and then I messaged you on reddit because I had no other contact info and I think luckily for me you were on Reddit at the time or something because you answered right away yeah it was actually very rare I'm not on reddit hardly ever and it just so happened that I saw your message and I was like what so yeah you were like can you verify your identity yes I verified all right cuz you know that's just that's the next thing else is gonna pull is like message you'd be like hey I'm a blown C remember which please tell me if they do that I wanted I've not had anybody tell me that but I have had I have had XE or contact me and then suddenly drop out of touch after things start going a certain direction and I'm pretty sure those were plants I think those were efforts me to you know can say things that I you know that they think I shouldn't be you know that I'll reveal secrets or something and I big secrets about my about you know guys they really care about we're small fry we're little fish pretty much and I'm okay with that I don't I don't have some status thing anymore on Scientology now ok now let's let's talk about this blow of yours cuz this was actually pretty significant this was I stopped last October so why don't we go we're gonna get a fast-forward your story you joined staff at Valley you join the school you know we'll talk about some of that but what led up to what were you doing because you were in San Jose area right what was out okay so I'm trying to think how much of the backstory I can cut out and still have this make sense take your time say whatever you it's it really was a culmination of things because like in order to understand what how and why I got to a point where getting on an airplane in the middle of the night with nothing except what I could carry in a carry-on and a backpack leaving my husband my mother my stepfather my little brother all of my friends literally all of my friends like my husband all of my stuff in LA like all of it in order to understand how I got to that point like there is a lot of backstory to that it's not it wasn't just like one event it wasn't short thing so um I am gonna rewind I know you tried to fast-forward rewind could go right back nice try so I joined staff when I was 15 I worked as a classified staff member from age 15 to 20 during that time I made no more than $50 a week average was $15 a week and a lot of the time it was zero dollars a week I was working between 60 and 80 hours a week I was one of four or five people at the valley org who was on forty hours or more there is a total of maybe 30 people working there at the time so you know 25 people working 20 hours or less and five of us keeping the place open most of the time for zero money right and a lot of that comes down to a guilt trip when I was 17 I met the man that I ended up marrying so I was in a relationship with him starting at age 17 he was 20 when we started dating and having sex which like I know there's a whole thing with Scientology and pedophilia and statutory rape and this whole thing 17 for me is very borderline I wouldn't consider it one of those things just I know there's people who will be watching and listening and thinking of that I wouldn't class it as that I would definitely class it as the Scientology viewpoint of you know big fate ins and little bodies and urine adults no matter how old you are definitely bitten be in the ass there because we were engaged within six months and you know we stayed engaged until I was 20 so we were engaged for about three years I at that point was miserable I was not doing well on staff you know I had friends from middle school at the high school who were going to college starting their own lives you know living even friends who had gone to Renaissance who were doing that and I was stuck on and I had another couple years left to go on my contract I mean I was suicidal I was borderline suicidal I was I was absolutely [ __ ] miserable but of course admitting to being suicidal in Scientology is just the death sentence and you get interrogated about you know what are all the bad things that you've done that made you feel that way why are you trying to escape and on and on and on had you seen that in action by this point okay yes there were a couple of people who were on staff at Valley who had had suicidal thoughts or even homosexual tendencies and they were pretty rapidly kicked off staff and you know they were scum they were dirt you know what I mean I don't don't think about them they're they're dead to you that's it and that's exactly what happens in the Sea Org as well you you want to get out of the Sea Org you know you put a suicide thing out there and and you're gone yeah that's right to them too I mean that's a good oh yeah you're I mean so I the other part of this is that I was very loyal I was very loyal to the people I consider to be my group my extended family I had invested a lot of myself in this group the staff the the public you know I really I felt like uh I was failing and I was unhappy because of me I felt like it was my fault so I wasn't at a point where I was going this isn't for me it makes me unhappy I was going I'm doing something wrong because I'm unhappy I'm obviously not doing enough because I'm unhappy you know I need to do something else I need to do more I need to you know I need to figure something out I don't want to just be one of those ex staff members I don't want to just be an ex whatever because it's the stigma with that right there is a total stigma yeah and it's if there's not a stigma so much with the public but with staff and see our members there's absolutely a stigma with ex stuff and it's your look that is like you abandoned your team you gave up you know how dare you there is absolutely a stigma that it's it's awkward being around as a former staff member until enough time passes that that kind of chills and it's usually a year - absolutely and especially because I was in a relationship with the the lead auditor counselor whatever you want to call it that my fiance also worked there and he had another you know four years on his contract I only had a year and a half so even if I had waited it out and then left it's not like I could just disappear because we were engaged I would still be stuck there so instead I joined this New York because if I can't stand another you're gonna half of it then obviously a billion year is just fine right makes total sense I gotta tell you that is the exact I was in when I joined the C or - as a staff member eight years really it's really hard to justify to other people why you did it but it is like you you know what I need when you're like I joined the CEO to escape staff to take mantan because for me I'm not I'm not putting this on you but for me it was also the responsibility button because I happen to be on the solo course at the time and I was reading Scientology at 8008 which is a kind of a intense book in psychology and Hubbard talks very very matter-of-factly about the fact that you have to take full responsibility for everything or you will end up with nothing and I was like oh my god I got a step up and and and you know fill these big boots and so you know that's that that was why I did it but again a lot of parallel with between us on the on the staff experience I mean for me there definitely was some of that in there I have always been very like I I pack bond with everybody you know so so everybody is my family everybody is my group they're my people I can't let them down I have to help them have to save them yeah oh so there's that there was you know definitely the responsibility factor I always wanted to help people like oh yeah you can just help people there was also the factor like hey you are basically already working Sea Org hours and you are getting paid less than a/c remember why don't you just write just join the sea or you'll get paid more you won't have to buy your own food you won't have to buy your own uniform you won't have to pay rent you won't need a car just like keep doing what you're doing because I'll get paid more like okay yeah sure you know I kind of a no-brainer right of course that's what I should do exactly yeah so yeah so so I doing this New York when you first joined the sirak you do basically a little bootcamp which I don't know if you've told your viewers we've talked about the EPS yeah okay good so you got through the EPF my fiance followed me into the Sea Org he we got married legally the day that I routed in just went and signed the paperwork and everything you don't have a ceremony and a feast and a reception and a honeymoon you just win no no we just we went to the courthouse on a Thursday morning have you have you told them about Thursday before - oh yeah but you go ahead and explain what is what is there so for whatever arbitrary reason in Scientology the week begins and ends at 2:00 p.m. on Thursday not Monday morning not Friday night up Sunday Thursday at 2:00 that's when the end of the week is and the beginning of the next week is so I had to route on to the EPF I'd to start in the Sea Org before Thursday at 2:00 so Thursday morning at like 8:00 a.m. we get up we go to the courthouse in van nuys very scenic some dumpsters let's suppose people sign the papers my mama was an ordained minister so she signed with us I had a friend witness very romantic out in the alleyway he got in his truck and went to the org cuz he had to go deliver a session and I got on my mom's car and went and started the EPF that was how I got married we did to be fair we did have a wedding a couple months later like an official one I got a thrift store address for about $25 my my parents and my in-laws got the food you know wedding cake and cracker trays and stuff from Ralph's and you know it was great I'm very sorry to hear about all that you know it's fine it ended it's can end in divorce so uh no no big investment there fair enough no end as it began the way right now what is your attitude about or towards your ex or I should say still your husband in terms of legally but you know okay so my attitude is we are very different people that's my attitude I I don't dislike him I don't hate him I don't have any ill feelings toward him it was a relationship that started when we were very young and it kept going longer than it should have because of Scientology because we were on staff and we worked together and you know I actually so I decided to join the C work I signed a contract I came home and told him we had a meltdown he wanted kids and I didn't let my meltdown lasted for about two days and he stayed firm that he wanted kids and I stayed firm that I wanted to turn the Sea Org so at the end of that I gave him back the engagement ring and I called the thing off and I said okay you know I wish you the best I'm gonna join the c-word with or without you so peace out and that was also two point in the relationship where you know we were out of the honeymoon period and there were things there were red flags and there were issues that I had nothing terrible like he's not I do want to make it really clear he is a very good person he's a good guy um he's just a personality mismatch he's not not the right guy for me and so there there were things that had started to show and and overall at that point I was like you know I'm glad I have the excuse to break it off I'm glad that there's a reason to break up um he came back to me a day or two later crying said you know he had had time to think about it and thank you for making me you know confront this I am gonna join the Sea Org it is what I need to do I'll join with her without you I would rather join with you I would like to you know I'd like the engagement to be back on I'd like you to be my wife I'd like to join with you but if you say no I will still join the Sea Org I'll just wait until my contract is up at Bally org and then I'll join in four years now uh I was like wow that's [ __ ] romantic so yeah sure like let's get married what am I like what are we gonna say that you know I mean that's that's romantic as [ __ ] that's that's a rom-com [ __ ] right there he made we made the grand gesture yeah he made the grand gesture and I was twenty like what was I gonna do I'm saying that like I'm so much older now but ya know I mean young and foolish and and away we go here we are you know exactly so and then you know and then get him out of the org because he still had four years on his contract yeah and I still had a year-and-a-half on mine and did he just rip in Ryan or did you guys get replaced uh we technically got replaced I got replaced with somebody who was an existing staff member who didn't get replaced and then for him they had somebody who wanted to join the Sea Org but had done LSD and she was a classic so she replaced him turns out she was a really shitty auditor and was like always getting retrains and being told she had to like redo things because she didn't know what she was doing and then she was like just kidding I haven't actually taken LSD so then they ripped her off in the end she went into sea or - yeah she's still in she's I couldn't see York man shake my head is because I you know you're supposed to when you have somebody move up from a class-five org to the Sea Org you're supposed to replace them so that the org doesn't lose out and yet what happens in Scientology over and over and over again as these orgs get [ __ ] over and people that's why we call it rip and run you rip the staff member and you run and then this before the or can say anything and now they're just loot that literally everybody shows up one day and the guy just ain't there and you're like where'd he go I can do about it and they're all of us hate the Sea Org for this I spent months trying to repair the bad image of the Sea Org by doing it just takes one person one lazy dude who's like yeah I don't want to recruit anybody rip-and-run and you're [ __ ] you're [ __ ] like you can't do anything Lauren shrinks no and it's I mean worse we're still we're still bad about this you can probably hear it I don't about Scientology but I'm so bad about rip-and-run it's well it's just because it's just such a it's just such an injustice to these poor people who are working their asses so that's my attitude towards him is we we were mismatched we were we got married too young circumstances kind of forced us together he was always sort of in a position of being the golden child once we were in the sea work because he's very highly trained he's very good at what he does for you know a given value of good and whatever but within those parameters he's like a top expert he's he definitely has a reputation of being someone who is very highly excellent and prized so there's a lot of effort made to make sure that he stays more or less happy not not that anybody ever gives him time off or lets him sleep enough hours or anything like that but you know there definitely have been efforts made to make sure that he stays happy enough to remain in the Sea Org because he's very valuable to them so yeah not all Sea Org members are the same as all other Sea Org members that's right you have Sea Org members who their entire job is to clean things clean the bathrooms and them clean and whatever and they're pretty easily replaceable and then you have cierk members who get you know hundreds of thousands of dollars of training and several years of training and you know a lot just like a lot of investment of time and money into them and so there's a there's a bigger effort to keep those people in the same jobs whereas lower level people you know if a bathroom cleaner comes in and says hey I'm pregnant or Hamm suicidal or hey I'm gay they'll be like great there's the door if somebody yeah if somebody who's in a higher position you know and we are here we are talking about people who have had like a great time investment in terms of training we're also talking about people who are more executive maybe not more trained but higher level in terms of the administrative functions there's a bigger effort made to keep them within the Sea Org because there's valuable experience there there's loyalty there that is not necessarily going to be found with the cook or you know a low lower level seorak member right right so so he's highly trained he gets even more highly trained yes and he had a very good reputation for just being extremely good at what he does so that's him meanwhile I ended up climbing the ranks administratively not I wasn't super high I never got super high up or anything but I was more or less the counterpart to what Chris used to do I don't know how much you've told them about that I will just say real quickly I mean I've made it known a number of times I was overseeing the delivery of all of Dianetics and Scientology services across the western United States so you worked in the same organization as I did right yes the same organization the same level that you did right after you left actually like maybe a year after you left and so I was in charge of the quality of delivery of Dianetics and Scientology you were in charge of the actual you know technical counseling and classes I was in charge of making sure that they were being delivered up to standards right you were their quality control person yeah yeah that's how I've explained it because there's there's the technical division which is division for the next one over is division five and it's called qualifications but it might as well be called quality control same fun that's right that's right so I was in charge of quality control for the western United States everything west of the Mississippi and you worked with my ex-wife I did I was actually really good friends with her um Sonny was one of my really good friends I was at her second wedding to Liam mm-hmm yeah she's remarried I left yes exactly I'm glad you're both happy I'm glad she's happy exactly so am i as happy as she can be in that context because I know she's you know I mean I doubt that things have changed over the last eight years where she wasn't miserable most of the time no I mean she definitely was still miserable when she worked at that level she got transferred to another job that she liked a little bit more but she was still pretty miserable I mean that's the thing with being in the Sea Org is like it's a contest of who can be more miserable you know what I mean if you're if you're working in the Sea Org and you're like I love everything's amazing someone's gonna come along and be like well then you're not working hard enough that's right that's exactly right it's it's like a it's literally like a defense mechanism don't advertise the fact that something is good or that you're happy because somebody will come along and evitable and make you miserable because they saw that you were too happy because if you're too happy that that just means you're not confronting what's happening so you're really a good point you're making right now if you're if you're ever happy about something or like talking something up or saying how something is good especially in a meeting you will get ground to dust you will it is a defense mechanism to be miserable all the time like actively miserable you want to make sure that the higher up people see that you're unhappy because if they don't see that you're unhappy they will come make you unhappy actively that's right because they because it cannot be that you could be happily producing on your post because look at the state of the world look at the state of Scientology look at the men money that's in this week look at this look at that look at this other thing that's right every yeah if you're happy it just means that you're not confronting the actual problems of your post if you're excited about something like you know let's say we we doubled the stats this week don't say we doubled the stats the second you say that you're toast because that just means you're complacent and you're happy about the level that you got - I love that word right Chris oh my god complacency got about that word yes no it's a weapon it's a weaponized word in Scientology really actually forgot about that yeah I know you're complacent you're reasonable you were that's right you know you're just you're not with the program you got other fish it's it is a defense mechanism that you are you walk around all the time unhappy and like do not walk around there smiling unless you're in a public area where public can see you if you walk around in a public area and you're not smiling now you're in trouble cuz you're out PR right so you got it you guys you got to perfect the mask you know soon as you walk out the door you're smiling and as soon as you walk back in the smiles gone you got a scowl that's right scowling is actually the preferred facial it god damn this is really funny because all about this this was something I eschew dried away when I got out because I'm generally a fairly happy person but I forgot but now that we're talking about it because I used to talk to Sonny about this all the time and then they would threaten you know like we'll just repost you in the galley you can wash dishes for the rest of your life until your you die of old age and just like please please [ __ ] repost me in the galley please I remember Chris O'Neal walked off post one time and went to the galley and just started washing dishes and the highest up of the highest ups the chief boss on the base Chantell had to go bring him back out of the galley and put him back on post because who the [ __ ] are they gonna replace him with and this of course is Chris Sonia he was he was a very very good friend of mine worked side by side with Sonny for years and years and years this is this this was the kind this was a person who I would say I was in the trenches with so to speak I know he hates my guts now because I was one of those deserters and and horrible person funny - which pains me to no end because he was one of my best friends Sammy - he is the guy I've been watching to see if he ever gets out that is I hope more than anyone I hope it's out I really do because he is he is such a [ __ ] good guy and he is the definition of a murderer exactly just lays down in the mud so everyone else can get across exactly deserve it at all because he's actually a really cool really nice guy that's the tragedy about the C organ about Scientology is there are the vast majority of people in these groups even in the Sea Org are good solid people and they have good you know they have decent moral values they have decent world outlooks they're just trying to help people and they are just being destroyed in this group and they take because they think just like we used to that this is the cost you have to pay this price you have to pay for saving the planet yeah I mean there's even there's even policy letters and bulletins and different things that back it up that even the talk about like blood sweat and tears and you're in the trenches and war analogies and this that the other thing to really make it like you know oh yeah of course for suffering like he's he says we're supposed to be suffering a little bit you know what I mean like it's a war of course there's gonna be some suffering of course there's gonna be a Twinner die in the attempt right I mean whoever it's deadly serious activity every does every man woman and child depends on what you do here and now with an in Scientology a game is the deadly serious activity you know I mean all this crap that we got fed totally and it just gets indoctrinated into you so okay I was telling a story you know I'm just throwing you off on purpose every every other so you were thinking about how you got in the Sea Org you guys the marriage and then so we got married my husband immediately got sent to flag for training he was there for about two years I got sent out to a city level org once again and I was there for about a year during that time I was miserable I again was suicidal I was having suicidal ideation and I what Ward was this where were you out gonna be so I initially I got I got sent out to be a network there okay so you work so you were one of the Sea Org members who actually got posted you weren't on a mission and your job was at that org that's right and so to go from being a miserable staff member lower level at a city org into the Sea Org to escape class v to escape the city orgs and immediately within a couple of months get thrown back out into it was awful right right so there's start with that but wait a minute wasn't it so much better and different because you were now at the at the ideal org in Orange County I mean come on right that's with so much this was so much better wasn't it than Valley I mean I know you're being facetious yes no it was terrible it was awful so it was worse because it was you know it was still a handful of staff members it was this grossly inflated figure of you know here we have 150 staff no we [ __ ] don't mark and Stephanie flat who were just on that last episode were part of the Orange County org staff opening thing I remember them I know that I don't know if they remember me at all I definitely had different hair at the time but IRA but they were lovely people they were super sweet they lasted a couple days and then they left because they had like four kids and they lived an hour and a half away and somebody got them to sign contracts saying that they'd be there all the time it's a lie it's a [ __ ] lie so you have this org open up it has 150 staff no it has like 30 or 40 that end up staying after the first couple of months but you're expected to then produce these huge grandiose figures of you know gross income and completions and auditing hours and you don't have the personnel for that it's a total losing proposition when you're not an ideal org nobody expects [ __ ] from you yeah nobody's paying a whole lot of attention to Albuquerque or Hawaii about Hawaii except when they have to pay their rent again which I've talked about many times it's that that's that cyclic sort of disgusting wendelien spiral of nonsense that goes on with these orgs exactly which is so [ __ ] up because there's more than enough money and it reserves to pay for all of the Reds or by the building's outright or just end this the stupid nonsense if that's actually what we are trying to do exactly so yeah it becomes very very clear after about the fourth or fifth one of these ideal orgs that that opens up and the same pattern we've described over and over until that you realize that you're dealing with a management level problem at from the very very top and this is you know and this is not about expanding Scientology there's no way it could be because it's being done in such a grossly incompetent way that you know there's some other game being played here that's right and I went like I want to take this moment to make it really clear because I guarantee you oasiz gonna watch this video hi karen Wessling hi Karen remember me I guarantee you she hates my [ __ ] guts at this point so if a statement ever goes out or a packet of donation materials ever gets made about me or you or anybody else in relation to this it's gonna say well Orange County or that brand opened in 2012 things are different now that was five years ago there's been a whole reorganization and overhaul in management all of those things are true however the problem is that the conditions the working conditions were so completely shitty and awful that the small changes that did get made which improved things on a minut level get blown out of proportion so it's like look everything's fixed everything's not fixed it is still a problem there are still a lot of the same problems but there have been tweaks and changes made so that in comparison it's like oh yeah we fixed it all we didn't fix it all we fixed you know one percent of the problem he fixed a small amount so what do you mean by that what kind of changes have been made um so like so when Orange County grand open there was a recruitment mission that went in they recruited up to unquote 150 staff and then they left and then a whole bunch of those people disappeared they recruited a bunch of people who were had never done in Scientology before they were non Scientologists they were you know whatever they showed up for a week they were like oh this paycheck sucks that they left you know the pay system at that time was you know I think 25% of the gross income or 15% of the gross income plus you know certain other percentages and whatever they did change the paestum to 50 percent of the gross income within the past couple years different things like that to make it you know more livable as a staff member well that's fine but if you are paying your staff 50% of the gross income first of all you end up getting pegged at a certain amount of staff being able to work there before again it spread too thin and then you also have minimums that you have to make if gross income or else you can't pay your bills because 50% of that automatically goes to the staff it just it creates other problems but on the surface is better yeah no that's why I was curious about it cuz I was because I know the changes are just more incompetence I'm just wondering you know how does that how does it appear that you know ologists are taking this you know oh I need so much more money now that is a concern mm-hmm oh no of course but how much more money are we talking about I mean we're talking in Mountain View er Silicon Valley org when I left the lowest level staff member was averaging like two hundred and fifty dollars a week okay I mean that's still not anywhere close to a living wage what's blacks what's that what is it maxing out at UH it was maxing out at like twelve hundred twelve thirteen hundred a week and that is a significant difference so that's for the head of the organization right it's like for the head of the organization that's for maybe eight nine hundred dollars a week for executive secretaries which is right under the head of the organization and then they did a whole bonus system for auditors okay auditor audits you know X amount of hours a week they get this bonus and that's that was where I saw that the biggest paychecks was with the auditors because there were certain auditors who just didn't do anything else and they were auditing you know 40 50 60 hours a week and so they would go home with twelve thirteen fourteen hundred dollars that's closer to an actual living wage now now we're actually talking about something that's right but in order to make that living wage they had to physically be in New York seven days a week right you know a day that's what that's it right so you know yeah you can make a living wage but this is the only living you'll be making yeah so but I do want to make it clear like so Orange County org opened wendel down very rapidly there will be people who say you know if anybody bothers to say anything about this that you know well it's all changed now it hasn't all changed now Silicon Valley or did essentially the same thing when they grande opened there were dozens of names on on that list of staff members that were not even in the country there were people huge did not attend the grand opening who were on the list of South numbers there are still names on the list of staff members they get reported up every week people who are not in the country people who are not on staff people who cannot be on staff people who were never on staff yes they signed a contract that is that is the only like you know seeing it that they have in common with a staff member yes they started a contract but as you get closer to a grand opening date and you don't have any leeway as a recruiter you don't have any give with that opening date and you must get it up to a certain number inevitably you go unusual you do random things you do whatever you can to get that number on that paper as high as you can and then as soon as Grand Opening happens a lot of the recruiters get pulled out so they go to other orgs and whatever names are on that paper that they were responsible for Neverland what you have that grand opening is what you're stuck with and you know if Mountain View Silicon Valley org yes it's in a better position than Orange County and I said a better position than Orange County was at grand opening but it doesn't have 200 staff it doesn't have 150 staff it has probably 50 or 60 stuff and a lot of them are doubled up meaning they work seven days a week they work you know ten hours a day they do for the most part go in session or go on course at some point during that time you know so they're not now they one of the opening up these new orgs is that they split them into the day and the foundation right that's right and one of the ways that they beefed up the cruellest is they have the same person sign two separate contracts right yeah they call it Day Foundation we're going to Day Foundation him it's a verb that's all new that's all after I left we didn't do that [ __ ] foundation them they count as two numbers on the staff number and that's how you get a lot of that stat up that's how you know you only have to recruit 40 actual bodies if you get them all to be their full full-time then you've got 80 staff right see and it starts becoming doable in that little time frame you've been given so so there's obviously the recurring pattern here staff Sea Org ideal orgs I mean we just see this recurring pattern of Deception you know of smoke and mirrors I mean mark Headley talked about it as it's all just it's all just a show that's all of Scientology it's just a show they're just everything that's done is done to present this image even internally that's right well be especially internally especially internally because seorak members as a whole or staff members as a whole or you know any significant portion of them suddenly started doubting what they were doing they would leave because they're not bad people right that's I mean like if I get across one point with this that's what I want to get across is they are good people and they deserve help and like more than almost anyone I've ever met these are people who dedicated their lives to what they think is doing nothing but helping other people they sacrifice their vacation time they sacrifice their retirement they sacrifice their family they sacrifice their friendships they literally cycle why is everything for this and it's not because they're you know bigots or zealots or anything else it's literally because they have huge squishy hearts and they just want to help and that's why they stay with Scientology through all of that pain like physical pain mental pain emotional pain all of it they stay because of that carrot and the carrot is not personal gain or wealth or anything that they would ever get for themselves that carrot is that when they die they can say they did something meaningful with their life to help others right that's why it breaks my [ __ ] heart when people you know stay in it their whole lives or when people go after the individual staff members or cierk members or you know I mean granted there are certain people who absolutely deserve to be harassed on the street but most of them do not no no and I've always made a point of saying that that kind of protest activity is is really counterproductive you know you're not helping anybody but Yoli and Scientologists on the street or screaming know about how evil they are they're not it's going right over their heads they're not getting it they don't know what you know you know everybody out in the real world knows more about Scientology than Scientologists do that's right you know that's right it's just it just reinforces the indoctrination that everyone out in the real world is out to get you and it is a bad place out there and you should just in a Scientology because at least you know at least we're not gonna I was gonna say at least we're not gonna yell at you but that's a lie we are gonna yell at you that's not a speak that's right that's right it just reinforces the belief that that the suppressives are out there and they're out to get you so that is that like and it's hard it's really hard to say you know how do you get someone out of Scientology how do you get someone to realize that because I don't know what it took for me was I haven't even finished that story I where I'm going to direct yeah let's get back on to it so 2012 brand new york remember 20 years old got sent out to work in the org after a couple of months to three months order came down you're not gonna work in the organist a there but you're gonna be a mission there so i had been this free chris i'd been posted as the LRH calm and so they there was an order that was like ella rage calms have to be sea org then after a couple months it was like just kidding somebody was wrong they misinterpreted that policy letter it's okay for LH comes so not to be seer therefore you have to recruit to LRH calms who are nazi org and put them on post but at the same time one of the original mission heirs uh decided he was gonna leave the sea org so he got taken off the mission and i got put on the mission okay all right I get it yeah so over the years is which of those Network postings is just a little minutiae of Scientology organization but just for folks out there who keep up with this stuff it's been it's gone back and forth over the years many many times as to whether they should or shouldn't be C org which of the network posts because there's about five or six of them altogether should be C org or now it doesn't have to be C or the LRH communicator is a post that is supposed to enforce al ron Hubbard's policies and directives in the organization and it is a network post so it's not a regular Joe staff member it's somebody who kind of oversees the organization and that's gone back and forth as to whether it's supposed to be a C work member I guess right now it's not see org but it's been see org in the past the only one that pretty much remains steady Eddy supposed to be see org no matter what is a different post Network post called the flag representative yeah but even then back in you know the 90s or whatever there was classified flag that's that's right but that's but that's been the one that's been mostly stuck to as see org the other ones get these weird interpretations that come down every now and again and yeah so there you go yeah anyway so so let me commissionaire and that was terrible that was awful I was in charge of recruitment and I was like how am I supposed to recruit anybody to come do this thing but I hated doing her five years that's so disingenuous uh I can't do that but I was made to do it and forced to do it maybe do it forced to do it and I couldn't do it and I failed and I failed my field so again I became suicidal and I was thinking about I mean this is how insidious it is I was sitting there 20 years old my husband is in Florida my brand-new husband who you know I just got married can't see him and talked to him once or twice a week for a couple minutes a day and I'm sitting there going well what if I walk into traffic then it'll look like an accident maybe I'll just break my leg and send me to the hospital and I won't have to go back to work and I can go do something else what if I see I was like well maybe I can jump off the roof of the org no I can't do that because that would go in the papers and that would make Scientology look bad that was my train of thought right and that's how they teach you to think as a staff member and a seared member that is the first thing you think about is how are my public actions going to affect the church what are the ramifications of me doing this thing not even necessarily something bad not suicide not you know crimes or whatever but you know anything any unusual thing you go well you know how is this haircut going to impact the image of Scientology if I get this tattoo I can't get it in a place that other people can see it because that will reflect on Scientology because I'm a representation of the church correct yeah totally totally had that I'm not you are and you're fully you are brainwashed to think that I mean like the one of the first things that I did when I got out was I dyed my hair blue because [ __ ] you you know because I can exactly but you know that's that is how you think so I went to my mission I see mission in charge the person in charge of the mission on the ground Renee page oh she was your mission I see she was should I see Jimmy Jimmy Page's wife that's right yeah I know her yeah that's right she is a very well-intentioned lady yes she is really nice woman she's very sweet yep definitely gets in over her head I definitely have seen her carry out orders and do mean things that I know she did not want to be doing but had no choice that's right there are situations you get put in where either you can cause somebody else some pain or you can suffer right next to them and that's not really a choice at all well and actually I want to I want to clarify all I want to I want to say something about what you just said there because that's important because people do wonder how this happens you know and and there is a lot of indoctrination going on in Scientology all the time and in the Sea Org it's it's it's ramped up 20 times so there's there's a there's a there's a group think there's a there's an in group mentality within the Sea Org that you know it's it's supposed to be unpleasant tough rigorous hard difficult to you know carry on with you're supposed to have this high level of confront where you're supposed to be able to do anything any job anytime anywhere anybody asks you to do no matter what your training level no matter what you know how to do you're just supposed to pull [ __ ] off yeah I mean there's even Paul these that say that specifically for your membership clarify there are literally policies that say stop pretending you don't know how to do things you are immortal spiritual beings that have lived you know millions of lifetimes so anytime you say you don't know how to do something you're just pretending and you need to cut it out because you absolutely can do anything whether you think you can or not and any failure is just you being like intentionally weak exactly and that's how it's communicated as you are and purposefully being counter intention to whatever it is that is that is that you're supposed to be doing and I'm highlighting this is because I really want to make it clear to people out there who might not understand or or conceive of how this works it's not like an office job or a corporate job or something you're you're it's not even like the military it's actually a lot worse so you're indoctrinated with then there's also the the I want to stress the the the group dynamic expects you to be an [ __ ] that's that that's actually a standard that you're given as how you're supposed to act so if you're a nice person or you're kind of the person who doesn't want to get in people's faces or doesn't want to make people cry or feel bad you're gonna have to get over that real fast or like she just said you're gonna be the person standing side by side with the person being disciplined you're gonna get discipline too and it's not gonna be pleasant it's not going to be fun that's right going to learn the lesson it's it's totally true and it really is that way it really is you know if you like [ __ ] rolls downhill [ __ ] rolls downhill big time and either you can be an enormous [ __ ] to the people underneath you or the people above you will see that you're not mean enough and they will heap it on to you the only way to get that heat off of you is to push it onto other people and if you're not willing to push it onto other people you will end up at the bottom really really fast and that was that was a lesson that especially a management we all learned that we fast or didn't stick around so I went to my mission I see you ran a page I told her hey private meeting I'm having these thoughts I want to jump off the building I want to jump into topic it scares me I need to get on position like I can't do this anymore I really seriously thinking about killing myself and she said no you're not stop dramatizing that's not you thinking that don't ever say that again and don't ever tell anyone else they are having these thoughts because it'll affect your calls and to clarify cuales qualifications and there are a lot of positions and posts that you're not allowed to hold if you've ever had suicidal thoughts so her first thought not was not wow I need to help you her first thought was you're trying to get out of this because you're not having fun and don't tell anyone else because you'll get in trouble and I'll get in trouble right yeah there's a lot of cover-your-ass there there's also posted idea in her mind that she probably thought she was helping you in some way I'm sure she did I'm sure she absolutely believed in what she was saying was true I'm sure she absolutely believed that it was just me being dramatic and trying to get out of doing something I didn't want to do I'm sure she didn't really think that I was going to kill myself which obviously I didn't and she did report something I don't know what she reported but she wanted something because within a week or two I got pulled off of that mission and I got reposted at management level I got reposted in the actual LH comm office that's yellow so which she would not have been able to do if it had been known that you had this is the qualifications point in order to be on that post you couldn't have had a suicide threat so she must not have reported that right and I don't know what she didn't report I never found out what she actually reported but she obviously she reported something because within a week or two I was off that mission and I was on dust okay so um so now fast forward a little bit I thought was fine and actually enjoyed that post I enjoyed what I was doing it was good it was relatively low pressure it was a lot of administrative work which I'm I'm good at administrative stuff and that was fine and I was doing really well at it so within a year I got promoted again but that's when I got promoted to the qualifications post that we were talking about earlier when I was in charge of the quality control for the West us so and about what year was this uh late 2013 early 2014 okay around the time that I'm officially getting declared or yes it was actually I think I talked about near officially getting declared so my husband was the one at flag who was interrogating your I don't know I've I've referred to her by her real name sense but I let's just call her you know Lucy or whatever I don't care yes right so he was he was the one who tried to interrogating Lucy and he was the one who then found out that she was communicating with you about these things that she wasn't allowed to tell you about and he's I think he's it eventually was the reason that you did get declare yep yep so yeah that's it again this really weird connection and it and only because my ontology is such a tiny little world that stuff like this happen so bizarre suitable weird so so that was and that was right about the time that I became that post and all of a sudden that these things were affecting me so as somebody who had no training like I was not technically trained in Scientology you know I just had some administrative Cheney all of a sudden I was in charge of quality control for all of the technology being delivered in these orcs which you know makes no sense right sure right well good and by training we actually are talking about in the methods and procedures of Scientology auditing and training and you know knock it call it a bunch of crap suit of scientific garbage which it all is there are still methods and procedures you should know if you're going to do a Q see job that's right that's right yes you know it's do the scientific garbage but it's very highly standardized to the scientific garbage right there there are very set rigorous procedures and steps that someone needs to be trained in if they're gonna be delivering it sorry let's all of us I'm in charge of quality control which actually the job itself is a total lie because you're not in charge of quality control when you're doing that what you're in charge of is you're in charge of making sure that there are people being recruited to add to the staff numbers of all of the orgs specifically to go into training for technical posts so that there are more auditors to deliver spiritual counseling and more supervisors to deliver the classes and what you get you know run on and what you live or die by is not the quality of delivery what you live and die by is how many new people were added into training that week so once again I was sucked into recruiting and hiring which I hated because I was always miserable and why would I recruit people to do something that I was miserable at so in order to do the job well I had to continually lie to myself and to other people that this was a good thing which psychologically I'm sure like was very exciting well would you say you know people have asked me what was the breaking point and and I had a 10-year stretch before I finally you know realized I needed to leave but the breaking point for me was the day I realized that I was telling more lies than truth and it's exactly along the line of what you were just describing I'm wondering if you would describe it similarly um I don't know that I ever realized that or came to that conclusion necessarily on my own mm-hmm that definitely was a factor and was a reason that I was never a good recruiter mm-hmm like you you would have been described as a good recruiter but that's also because you were willing to lie yeah I was and I guess I gotta get you think it's all in their greatest good no no I get it I'm just I just want to make it clear that you know this wasn't it's it's not about being malicious it's about you know acceptable truths cuz keep in mind that something else ever talks about right is except don't lie you tell the acceptable truth right and after a few years after a few years I got alright at it and I got to a point where I could tell an acceptable truth but I was a bad liar I'm a really bad liar so no the only way that I ever got away this lives was by lies of omission or like misdirecting attention never outright over at least saying like yeah of course you'll have time off of course you make enough money like I never I never got to a point where I could comfortably and convincingly say something like that so I was never a good recruiter so but this is this is where the breaking point really started for me was on that post because it's a very it's very unique to that level of Management what we were talking about earlier where you know happiness's looked on as like well you're just not confronting and like you're expected to be unhappy all the time and you're really it really is a job requirement to be mean to other people if you want to survive at all and nobody will ever come out right and say that that's the other thing that really [ __ ] you up is that nobody will ever admit that that's what it is and if you were ever caught saying something like that overtly oh god like you would be in so much trouble so you have this weird psychological trap going on where you figured out what you need to do to survive and you also know that it's really [ __ ] up but you can't talk to anybody about it right because you can't trust who's gonna say what the only person I ever talked to about it was sunny sunny and Chris because I already knew I mean we all were we were all [ __ ] together you know to me we were all in that same boat it's so [ __ ] weird to me that you and I are out here having this conversation talking about this and then and those two people are still in there stuck it's so tragic to me well I think part part of it also is just the family connections that they have yeah in Scientology are so much stronger than what we have her had I mean not to negate what I had or have because my mom is still in and my brother is still in my staff dad is still in and I was very close with them but I also after being in the CR four five five years six years and not really seeing them during that time seeing them once or twice a year it was a much weaker connection than what I had previously been and I had also because of the the post that I was holding I was above them like I was I was senior to them and they would come to me for advice on what to do and you know for my little brother that's fine but my mom and my stepdad would come to me and say hey I'm having this problem you know at my local org what do i do who do I write my report to what should I say so it kind of had a little bit of a role reversal there and it made it easier for me in a way to make that decision for myself instead of relying on advice from my mom you know because of that Shawn whereas you know Chris and Sonny are both married their spouses are both in the Sea Org the Chris is absolutely devoted to his wife I think she has family who are also diehard Scientologists his mom is on staff on a mission you know Liam's family are all diehard Scientologists he's got brothers and sisters who are in like it's for served connection thing it's it's a way bigger stick for them than it is for me or you yeah yeah cuz I was fortunate in that my parents had already gotten out that's right and so I had a support system waiting for me and it was made clear to me before I left that I would have support and that is what enabled me to actually take the step out in their they're not up to having those conversations and they don't have that support system and and it's very very sad when it's you know when we're looking at that you know even now that's right and I mean I'm still young I'm still very like relatively young also I still have a lot of you know life ahead of me and I can still go back I can still go to college and you know get a degree and do something and whatever Chris and sunny are in you know they're in their 40s they have no degree they have I don't think any high school even diplomas and so you know if they were to leave right now they would be absolutely [ __ ] well they wouldn't be completely [ __ ] but they think they would be and that's that's the psychological problem you know yes because you had some problems and issues and I'm really really glad you contacted me because we were able to get you with the aftermath foundation that's right which who absolutely helped me tremendously um probably some of the people watching this will be you know part of the aftermath foundation group on Facebook and they'll have seen my written story and a lot of the stuff that I'm saying now is rehash of what I wrote there but yeah the aftermath foundation absolutely helped me and I am really glad that you set me up with them because without them I would be having a much more difficult time out here much more difficult yeah exactly you didn't even know about them I yeah and we're really working hard to try to get word about it into the Sea Org you know somehow someway and and I that need that work needs to continue because these guys if they do know if they had any idea that there was something out here that could help them and support them and give them you know some some assistance that they need and and the wealth of people out here who are willing to help jobs and help with places to stay I mean all that stuff actually exists I know and it's it's a problem I've been I've been talking to Aaron about it and how to how to get that word out how to find out who's leaving the seorak how to find out you know where these people are going and what's happening and it's really hard because of the way that Scientology is set up in such a 1980 for Big Brother style report system it isn't ever safe to tell somebody that you're not a Scientologist anymore unless you know for sure that they won't turn you in exactly exactly and that's there there's never a guarantee of that it's always a risk it's always a huge huge risk and you're risking depending on how many loved ones you have in Scientology you are risking those connections because as soon as somebody reports you like you're you're in for it that's right it's game exactly so so what happened after I assumed the quality control post is within a month or two I received two comments in a row like at the same time comm EV is the committee of evidence it's the highest justice action that somebody can get in Scientology it's basically you've committed suppressive acts we're not necessarily going to declare you an SP but you've done some really horrific bad [ __ ] and they're supposed to be steps that get taken you know somebody writes a report on you and then somebody sees you in ethics and then you get like a court of ethics which is like a lower-level justice action and there's supposed to be a whole bunch of steps before a committee of evidence ever gets approved that's how it's supposed to work that didn't happen without any forewarning whatsoever and no mention of anything all of a sudden one day I get told you are getting two comments at once and they're going to be held by CMO cm I was the commodores messenger organization and that's that you I think you've explained this to people right Chris oh there's a whole video I own and I'll link to it below because there's all these sub organizations within Scientology but basically yeah they're very they're the ones who are basically running things as under the direct authority of RTC CMO are the ones who run around and actually do the yelling that's I mean at people most of the time that's right so the point here is it's very unusual for or it should be very not Julie it actually is very unusual for a CLO staff member management you know continental management staff member to receive a comma held by CML normally it would just be other staff within that organization so this is like some really serious [ __ ] and it wasn't just one column it was two comments it wants to separate bills and everything I don't know why but you're [ __ ] I never found out why nobody ever told me what were you comment for I was come up because it was four three four months after the release of gold need to be checked to and there were too many auditors who were still auditing in the orgs who had not gotten through their gold may detect you training yet and they did a comment on you because of that yes because it was a quality it was a quality control problem and I got two separate columns because one of them I'm sure you remember exactly what it was I think one of us one of the columns was because not enough auditors had gotten through their updates and one of them was because not enough new auditors had been put into training right then we'll place out the old auditors and so I got yeah exactly so what the verdict ended up being was lower condition assignment 150 hours of immense you know slap on the wrist whatever and that's considered that's considered a slap on the wrist just for the viewers out there 150 hours or immense outside of your production time is considered a slap on the wrist that's like a low penalty so that sort of set the tone for my two-year stint as the senior call ii sort of the post is called see it wasn't you know it's so funny because hubbard actually wrote a policy letter saying to not do exactly what happened to you I'm sure he did at least one calm of a year then you're not really living something like that yeah not really doing your job yeah yeah Hubbard wrote a lot of things I just I just always like to point that [ __ ] out because you know it is the contradictory nature of Scientology you can always find some policy Hubbard wrote a cup anything you want to do but it is kind of odd to me always even at this late date years after the fact I still get upset about the fact that there's a policy letter that specifically states don't do this it [ __ ] people up and then they go ahead and do it anymore you know [ __ ] me up so I sort of set the tone yeah and it was it was me and a couple other people on the bill that the person who replaced you was also on that both of those comments Josh poor Josh poor Josh I know talk about somebody was victimized by Scientology's and for those out there he's another Sea Org member who got recruited into the Sea Org when he was just a little teeny out of Las Vegas and yeah and he's got medical issues and he's got other problems and and anyway we just recently saw an update about him and he's he's still around but he's not a good way and we just feel really bad for him anyway so got through that everything was miserable it really was a post where there is no winning because there is no matter how many people you manage to somehow long-distance using nothing but telex which is basically emails get these orgs to recruit people and add them to the TTC which is the training put them in training doesn't matter how many people you may have magically get to do that you know the maximum I ever got was like eight in one week which was huge and it still wasn't enough I couldn't be happy about that because it wasn't every single or adding somebody every single week including Hawaii including Santa Barbara including Albuquerque you know what I mean yeah so I did this for eight years I totally know what you mean so when it was two years of this so at a certain point and this is where my dates do get a little bit hazy I think it was the beginning of 2015 something like that I got pregnant it was an accident birth control failed it happens I personally had never wanted kids that was never something that I had really hoped for I knew that my husband badly wanted kids but he also had just come back from Flagg fully trained as a class 7cs case supervisor it's just for those of you out there who don't know it doesn't [ __ ] matter it just means he's really really trained he spent a lot of money on him a lot of time money whatever two years and he'd just gotten back yeah that's right so and I knew like I knew the expectation would be abortion I didn't wait for somebody to try and convince me I didn't wait for that conversation I pretty much already knew what the conversation was going to be you know I took the pregnancy test the medical officer was like what are you gonna do and I said I guess I'm gonna get an abortion came home that night told my husband just you know I'm pregnant I'm getting an abortion and that's the end of it like I don't want to talk about it that's what's happening definitely [ __ ] him up he was very visibly upset which is totally understandable but having any further discussion about it would have been viewed as a violation of policy because any discussion of keeping the child automatically meant we were discussing leaving the sewer which is something that you are absolutely forbidden from doing right so there was no further discussion I got my abortion I was back on post the next day how at that point in your career with what you had seen how many other people had you seen or did you know about who that had happened to is it clearly I mean or did you just jump right to abortion because I thought that was the right thing to do um I I knew about a handful of people it was very much not publicized and inevitably if anybody ever got an abortion there was a short story there was a cover story for they were sick they had the flu you know they had an operation it was not talked about so it's even covered up okay it's covered up internally and the only reason that people ever know about it is because you know you're pregnant you tell your friend I need some emotional support your friend tells another friend grapevine things spread that's how it works but for the most part it is very heavily covered up because it definitely is not like people don't want other people thinking about like oh yes Sarah members get abortions it's just a thing so I also was obviously very unhappy on my post at the time and when I found out I was pregnant I went to HR and I was like hey I don't want my job I want a different job I'm really unhappy and I got assigned a lower condition we're trying to abandon my post I got my abortion I went back to work the basically the next day after the abortion and got screamed at in front of the entire Clell by the commanding officer who told me that she was told by HR that I wanted to abandon my post and that I was I shouldn't even be allowed to stand in the same line as the rest of the CLO and I should be ashamed to show my face and was that Vickie Shantz that was yeah Vickie is still deal yeah she was the CEO when I was there she's hell on wheels man yes yes she is yeah so I words I told her like I don't know who told you that but it's not true and she apologized to me privately but she never retracted her statement publicly or anything like that it just was a thing like you just get sometimes it must are you get roasted that's a thing so must release fun because you never knew who was gonna get roasted so that was that went back to post went back to the job things stayed the same things got worse you know same old same old late nights no sleep blah blah pressure yeah pressure pressure pressure smile at the wrong time all of a sudden you're washing dishes for two days you know no time off time to do your laundry everything's always an emergency I mean everyone reaches a breaking point you know no there's a breaking point for everybody so I did reach a breaking point and I got pregnant again and this time I got pregnant on purpose and I did it because I wanted to leave and I didn't think that there would be another way for me to leave because I knew that divorce was not an option for me there was another cierk member around the same time who was married and she had been begging to get a divorce for years but because her husband was a very productive Sea Org member that they wanted to keep in the Sea Org her HR told her she was not allowed to get a divorce she was not allowed to ask her husband for a divorce she was not allowed to even tell him that she was thinking about a divorce and she had to just play nice because they needed him to stay happy so that he would not leave the Sea Org that is a new one yes Brandon did end up leaving and she was so ecstatically happy when she left when he left she was over the [ __ ] moon she was so goddamn happy she's remarried now she's super happy he's remarried he has a kid he's super happy but because of that situation I nobody told me nobody ever said you can't ask for a divorce but it was one of those situations where my husband loved me more than I loved him okay like I did know that for sure and that sounds egotistical it's not that's a fact yeah he followed me he gave up his huge dream of having kids just so he could be with me right regardless that you shouldn't be required to stay in a relationship you don't want to be in right it doesn't really you know who loves whom or who did what to who you should have the freedom to have the relationships you want that's right and that's the basic problem so so I already knew like divorce was not going to be an option if I like if I ever told him I'm leaving the sea or you should stay let's get a divorce he would come with me he would say no I don't want a divorce I'm coming with you like you know what I mean yeah um also when a seared member gets pregnant if she keeps the baby the husband has to go with her there is no option of divorce and that's because of child support laws right early on they were doing that but they obviously had to stop yeah they had to stop because of child support okay so um so that's those are the options if you get pregnant you get an abortion or you both leave there's no one leaves in one space it's not a thing um so I got pregnant I went in I said I'm keeping it as soon as I said I'm keeping the baby my husband was moved out of our room without nobody told me anything they just moved him in the middle of the day while I was you know on post and he was on post came home that night all of his stuff was gone I was by myself in an empty room I was isolated from all of my friends I was isolated completely the only thing that I was allowed to do that I was like taken out of my room for was for interrogations and ethics handlings working on ethics program reading policy letters word clean policy letters getting interrogated and by interrogated you mean on the meter getting SEC check yes yeah I am very impressed by the way and I'm gonna note this because this is impressive how you have eschewed the language how you've how you've changed the language in your mind and you are not communicating with Scientology's for the amount of time you've been out it's impressive I appreciate that I really work on it yeah it's it's good I'm I am making an actual effort here to use regular language and not speak Scientology's it would be very easy for me to slip back into it and just go on a whole roll but I also want anybody watching this to understand what I'm saying yeah like that's very important to me is to be understood and understandable no you're you're doing great so please carry on okay good so so then I stuck to my guns I said no I'm doing this I'm like I want to keep the um this is what I'm doing Oh Oh God okay I forgot something print it out what did you forget um so at first I pretended I was going to get an abortion nobody knows this oh okay nobody knows this um my first abortion was by pill they give you the pill and you take in you the home and you have a miscarriage it's really messy and uncomfortable and not recommended so I went to Planned Parenthood I got the pill I pretended to swallow it and I threw it away nobody knows that I did that this is the first time I'm actually telling anybody that I did that because I immediately buried it got it that was dangerous yep because my plan my actual plan was pretend that I didn't pretend that I'm complying oh it didn't work let's go check it out ultrasound baby's still intact guess I'm having the baby cuz the abortion didn't work it's a sign I should have the baby and that way it's not my fault I'm not some horrible person it just didn't work out what actually ended up happening was I pretended to take the pill the abortion didn't happen went to the doctor doctor said the baby's there and then I said okay I'm having the baby and then the isolation will happened okay but I also I also had people coming to me and telling me how my baby was gonna be deformed how it's gonna be mentally handicapped how it was gonna have a miserable life how it was gonna be a suppressive person because I had taken this pill and harmed it while it was still you know an embryo and it was gonna have all of these horrible things and be and just awful and that I was actually doing a really evil thing by deciding to carry the baby to term this is disgusting yeah but this is this is the psychological waterboarding that somebody goes through when they're determined to leave the Sea Org if somebody on on a post that is determined to be of value to the Sea Org decides that they want to leave this is the type of psychological waterboarding that they get put through um so I part of the day I was being set checked part of the day I was doing labor like hard labor I ended up doing just like administrative labeling and filing and stuff like that for a while and that was fine I would listen I'd music and I would just be there by myself doing that filing and it was okay um and then someone came and told me well you can't do that anymore because you're too individuated you all isolate me like what he wants but okay so I wasn't allowed to do that anymore because it gave me some small joy so then I got put in the kitchens doing doing labor there and just helping with like prepping the food and carrying things and I was like hey there's certain things I can't carry I can't carry really heavy things like I'm not gonna put the baby at risk I'm just gonna you know I'll help you cut cakes and put things on platters and do stuff like that after I want to stay to three weeks this and certain people who I had considered to be very close friends just completely abandoned me and refused to talk to me and would not look at me and certain people who I considered to be friends came and talked to me and tried to get me to see a reason and tried to talk me into staying and tried to nobody ever said you need to get an abortion nobody ever said that but what they would say is you need to stay you're very valuable your experience is valuable your husband is viable your we love you like lots of love bombs with the implication that I needed to get an abortion in order to stay like that's an that's an understood fact well there was only one way cuz that's right you can't stay and have a baby there's just no way that's gonna ever happen so exactly so um you know so finally one of the security guards odo actually came and saw me and was like what does your husband think about this and I was like I don't know what he thinks about this because I haven't been allowed to see him for two weeks and odo was like that's [ __ ] stupid go demand to see him like go just go go walk in to walk in there and be like I need to talk to my husband right now and don't leave until someone lets you talk to him I don't right so that's what I do was odo having a particularly off day or something that he was giving such good advice what the hell I honestly I always kind of go like well everybody gets along with odo he's very easygoing but it's still a security guard and pack I mean I know I you know I don't know that he is cunning enough to be that many I think that's probably he's definitely not like the security chief okay fair enough so honestly I think he just at that point was like wow that's dumb he kind of speaks his mind you know mm-hmm um so I talked to my husband finally after like two weeks he still was not allowed to move back into our room but I did tell him like I want to keep the baby I want to leave and he basically was like he was very torn all of his friends were there he loved what he was doing he loved his job but he did end up saying whatever you decide to do I'll support you if you decide to keep the baby I'll come with you if you decide to get an abortion I'll still be here like oh whatever you decide to do I'll support you and I can see he was very torn for a Sea Org member I mean in his position that was going out on a limb I mean I know a lot of people are gonna be like what the [ __ ] that was horrible what the hell with this guy I'm telling you in that place in that time no that was that guy was going all the way out on a limb yeah yes that was that's a huge gesture that is yeah that's huge and especially for somebody who really badly wanted kids and especially for somebody who was so trained and had had so much invested in him and there was a lot of hopes and pressured writing on him specifically to even be able to say I will support you in your decision is huge yeah and that's again like I said before he is a good guy he is a good person he just was not the right person for me right so fine maintained by this time I am two and a half three months pregnant something like that Wow yeah so one night I'm in the kitchens and I get called into the office of what's-her-name Julie McCluskey - Oh huh okay yeah yeah yeah so she was she basically was the person who was very high up on their org board over the divisions that my husband worked in she was an executive in that organization okay got it so she oversaw quality control and delivery and Treasury and yeah they call it the chief officer in the Sea Org yes it's an executive position yeah um so she sat me down and she talked to me for a couple of hours she told me about how she had gotten an abortion she told me about how it's not natural for Satan's to have children because I faint and is just a spiritual being and they don't reproduce like amoebas it's all just considerations and you know wanting to have kids is just dramatizing past lives where we did have kids and there's future lines where I can have kids and there's past lives where I've already had kids but I don't really need to have kids but if I do have this kid and I pull my husband out of the sea organization by having this kid it will be the biggest over that I will ever on the whole track yeah yeah I get it so and she talked to me for probably three three and a half hours walked around the base I cried a lot and she convinced me to have an abortion yep so I scheduled my appointment I went in had them sedate me despite the fact that Scientology says you should never be sedated for operations if you can avoid it I said [ __ ] that you're gonna sedate me it was horrific um it was awful I woke up in intense pain there was still a part of the baby inside of me that the doctor had to reach in and pull out physically I know I see the face you're making just I'm sorry I'm not trying to no no it's fine I'm not offended I'm just it it hurt so bad yeah and I was basically just in shock after that so and I went someone had taken me to go get the abortion done to get the procedure done I came out he put me in the car he took me to go get sushi to cheer me up um he's Brandon bass actually of all people this was when he was the staff chaplain got some food stopped at the grocery store got some supplies you know Pat's and chocolate ice cream and various other things took me back to my room I slept for probably two two days and then I didn't know what to do because obviously I couldn't just go back to work doing the same thing I'd been doing everyone had just seen me doing heavy labor for like a month and they all made it really clear that I wasn't their friend anymore like it was very obvious that I wasn't acceptable to be part of their group so what was I going to do this was at the end of 2015 this was in December of 2015 right before Christmas and so every year Scientology has this big event called the New Year's event and it's put on live in Los Angeles and there's approximately three people who are in charge of logistically putting it together and filling it up I happen to be friends with two of them and these were people who actually had stepped by me during the whole pregnancy and abortion and had you know been there for me so I just went down there to the events unit and started helping them you know three people to put on an event that's supposed to have whatever five thousand attendees or some [ __ ] number right but you know it's it's big it's at the shrine it's there's a lot of logistics to Courtney and they get stretched so I just filled in the gaps and I started doing admin and I made myself very indispensable to them I did that you know it only took three days of me doing that to become indispensable because now you've got four people running this international event which is great because less than a week after I got an abortion somebody came to me and said okay trying to do the cat be EPF right and do you want to explain what yeah it's it's basically redoing your bootcamp category B is that where staff see work members are gonna get re retreaded or rerun through their basics quote unquote as Sea Org members because clearly they have gone off the rails in some fashion or another or failed on their posts and some for some reason and it is sort of a lesser penalty or a lesser handling for a person than sending them to the RPF which we've talked about all kinds on my channel so I'm not gonna rebuild you're not gonna go over any of that but the EPF is just you know heavy labor study five hours a day and learning your basics as a sea org member that's right and if you're doing the category B EPF you're probably also going to get SEC checked at the same time so then that's what I was as I was finishing my SEC check but it also acts as is brain washing you're being really brainwashed you you know to put it in sort of crude layman's terms you get put through the Kathy when the brainwashing starts to wear off and you start to repel and act against how a sere member is supposed to act but you didn't leave maybe you tried to leave that's a really good way to get put on the Kathy is to try to leave and fail maybe you walked off post maybe you really [ __ ] up whatever it is the brainwashing is starting to wear off and you need to get put through the washing machine again that's exactly that you could not have put it more accurately I like your explanation a lot more than mine so um so but realize this is less than a week after I just had an abortion they're like great you're gonna go do a program at heavy labor and so I was like no I am still healing I can't I can't like I cannot physically do that so this went back and forth for a couple of days and then finally a very senior person stepped in and was like you can have her after the event we actually need her for this once we don't need her anymore then you can have her right now we need her so I was safe until the new year I got to have Christmas with my family which was very nice and you know do that whole thing so I went through my brainwashing I came out nicely brainwashed totally gung-ho I was like ready to rock and roll ready to get back on post ready to do whatever was required of me you know as a Sierra member I was very willing Wow is that effective it was very effective he's very effective in addition to the sect check what what did they have you doing um I mean you do the heavy labor you do five hours of heavy labor a day you also do Chinese school of quotes about the Sea Org basically someone stands up with you know a bulletin board or a you know large letter server you can see it and they yell out part of the quote then everybody yells it back and it's like a memorization technique it's called Chinese school so you you memorize certain closest way and all the quotes are about how this year is tough and dedicated and you know really hard to get through and and all this stuff and just reinforcing these principles about how like it's okay that you're unhappy because that's how it's supposed to be it's it's interesting isn't it how you can read these issues from Hubbard about how it's a tough outfit only the strong survive you know only the Tigers survive and it's somehow I guess it had this effect on you it certainly did on me that you strive to be this ideal that Hubbard is putting out there of well it's a pride thing it's like yeah it's honestly it's a pride thing it's like yeah like I can make it of course I can make it you know right I'm not I'm not a wuss I can do this a washout I'm not gonna fail right there phrase on that so you do that you do like team drills team exercises team games you get inspected you're your living quarters get inspected once a day to make sure that they're perfectly neat and tidy very similar to to like boot camp you know military standards if it's not neat and tidy if it fails then you do push-ups or you do jumping jacks oh you do burpees um you study or you get set checked and you you're resetting those basic principles and it's really like a combination of what you're studying and doing plus the internal pressure of the group everybody is there with this idea of like yeah we're gonna be perfect see Eric remembers them there's definitely like once you're in the Sea Org for a couple of years you get very jaded in certain ways and if you get too jaded the brainwashing wears off so being with these new little like brand new cierk members who are all excited about it and not jaded it you kind of like oh I can't be you know I can't it can't be that way thinking that way is wrong I'm not all contributes to it and there's also once you're done with it you're like I'm really ready to stop doing five hours of heavy labor every day I'm like really ready to be done with this right right and there's also there's enough element of desperation to it of like please get me out of here like I've done I've done I swear I've done you know Damien like don't make me do this anymore and then there's also the humiliation of you have to run around the base in the EPF uniform and all these people see you that know what your post was and they know you know what your status was and they know what you used to be and now you're running around with all of the new recruits and like oh wow you must have really [ __ ] up because we can see you there and there is an embarrassment factor too yeah that's right it's a shaming technique it's an absolute shaming technique so so I finished and I was ready to graduate I was ready to get on post I was all gung-ho and I got pulled aside and told your husband has to get a vasectomy before you can graduate and I said what and they said yeah so this is not I can't officially tell you this I can't officially say this to you but just like as in confidence as an aside you are not going to be allowed to graduate at the EPF until your husband gets a vasectomy because we can't have another accident like this and this was because there was a similar situation with to see our members about a month earlier where the wife got pregnant got an abortion did the cat be EPF and then immediately got pregnant again but didn't tell anybody that she got pregnant and waited until it was too late for an abortion to tell anyone and then they had to let them leave because she couldn't physically get an abortion at that point so they wanted to make sure that that wouldn't happen with us because my husband was too important so I was given the choice of stay on the EPF until he decides to do it on his own or convince him to do it had somebody already spoken with him about it apparently so but I don't know I don't remember who okay someone had talked to him about it and he had said no okay so they they were at a point where they couldn't really force the issue with him because he had already told them no okay while you were on the category BPF you were not back with him I was not allowed to see him no I was not allowed to live with him I was living separately from him in you know bunk beds but now you were supposed to go see him I guess after post or something yes and convince him that this was the greatest good for the greatest number yes and did what I did that I saw him and I convinced him to get a vasectomy and I told him I was not going to be allowed to graduate until he did it and I needed him to do it because we were gonna be in the CIA forever so we were never gonna have kid so what's the point right and just as a side note as of when I left you know he got the vasectomy in early 2016 when I ran away in late 2018 he still was getting pains from it after of ex that sucks it's super shitty yeah and I feel really bad about that I honestly do I have a lot of guilt about that I should have just stood my ground and said no but hey the brainwashing worked I get where you're coming from and in case anybody hasn't seen my earlier video about this whole thing I did exactly the conversation that was done with you to get you to have an abortion that that chief officer did I did that with Sonny many years ago and it is probably the second biggest regret of my life the first one being that I didn't just skip out on Scientology back in 1901 and go be with my kid in Australia it is by far the number one regret of my life I've since met him interacted with him we're fine but I'm just saying this convincing sunny to have an abortion was absolutely the single worst thing I've ever done to somebody I felt so bad about it because I was not because of the fact of an abortion which I support a woman's right to choose it's that I forced it on her I convinced her to do something she really didn't want to do and I absolutely understand that a hundred percent understand that and not the time or the place but I didn't know you had a son I do yes I have a son his name is Joshi who was in Australia he's a grown-ass man now and I went and visited him two years ago about a year and a half ago in Australia and and we're getting along just fine he's we have a nice relationship now but the whole time I was in Scientology in the Sea Org I did not have that with him and and I should have you know just it's it's a whole story but that's that's that's that story that but anyway I just I wanted to just kind of put it out there that you and I been on the wrong end of this thing you know honest on this whole issue and I just want to say to you I mean yeah I get the guilt I totally get it I totally totally get it and it's not like it's none of it's justified but you really need to factor in the brainwashing element of that because it's powerful stuff it's not something you mess around with it's powerful stuff for sure yeah for sure so okay so now we're in early 2016 yeah so I at that point was happily partway through my training my Golden Age of snack to training I was through you know level 0 level 1 I got trained up as a supervisor I went to supervise in the Continental training work which is where all the Sea Org members go to study and then I was immediately transferred to the outdoor training program so now I was supervising all of the international executives who were coming to LA in early 2016 for executive training and I was part of that whole program throughout 2016 and to the beginning of 2017 okay um I loved it I loved supervising I loved teaching it was something I really believed in I really believed what I was helping teach was correct and I had a lot of fun I met a lot of people that I still consider friends and you know that was great beginning of 2017 I got transferred to the missionary unit and I got sent out on mission once again I warned them I just want to say this right now to anyone who's watching when Jason Hammel told me he wanted me to be a missionary I told him I was crazy i straight-up warned him I said you don't want to do this you don't want to send me out on mission I am crazy you will regret this and you're right the crazy part but the rest of it I think you were the only sane one in the room that's for sure so fast-forward a couple months whatever I ended up getting sent out to Mountain View org which is in Silicon Valley it's a org that grande opened in I think February of 2018 I was there for all of it I was there for all of the recruitment I was there for the grand opening and I was there up until October of 2018 I was in charge once again of technical delivery see I have to just say real fast for people who've got a history with me she was doing exactly the same stuff I was doing in twin cities in Silicon Valley same [ __ ] exact same kind of mission same parameters same issue you know all the same stuff yep exactly so now I'm gonna come clean here I did a bad thing uh there was I know Chris you're like oh what bad thing did you do that yes No so I I did a bad thing um so they grande they're open in February by April or so April May they were pretty much maxed out on their delivery like you take X amount of Auditors with Y amount of pre klaris they go into session there is only so many hours in a day that they can audit however the amount of intense heat and pressure to keep the statistics going up and keep those numbers on the graph going up is indescribable unless you've lived it right right right there there really is no way to convey the bone-chilling terror of oh my god the stats are gonna be down and I had managed to truthfully keep them going up for about two months street without fudging the numbers or anything like that um so now it was gonna be own like you are the devil because you broke that trend you oh my god like you didn't keep them going up they were gonna be going up you know with no dips and expansion but you [ __ ] up and every week was compounding that terror right so what did I do I started fudging the numbers surprised the the solution every single Scientology staff member comes to at one point or another just so everybody's clear on this oh yeah and it is a crime it's a huge crime in Scientology is called falsifying statistics yes a massive crime the worst a massive crime that everyone engages in that's right now was I was i falsifying something like gross income was i pretending to invoice money that the warrant didn't actually have that was gonna affect yeah pay our bills no what was i falsifying hours delivered was ID frauding any pre clears no did i pretend to use up intensives that had been paid for no did i it wasn't actually like hurting anybody nope is it a high-crime yes what I did was a suppressive act so I did this for oh god probably six months kept it up up through October that is hard to do by the way that's hard to do there's a lot of other statistics that feed into these statistics they're an integrated whole so you have to falsify this and this and this but you got to do it in such a way that it doesn't look too crazy funny grass and I have the perfect background for it because I worked in management for two years so I had to know statistical analysis I had to know what statistics got looked at with what other statistics I had to know how everything affected everything else there was there's just a lot of pieces that fell into place that made it I'm not gonna say easy because it wasn't easy but relatively easy for me to falsify that statistics I needed to falsify in order to avoid getting nuked so that's all going on right now I'm at a point where I have not seen my husband really for two years I've seen him maybe three or four times in two years he is increasingly unhappy and making it very known which in the Sea Org is unknown oh by the way you're not allowed to tell your spouse that you're unhappy with the fact that their job calls them away from you for any length of time because that's considered counter attention yeah but he's increasingly vocal about his unhappiness he actually had an episode where he passed out while he was working he had an epileptic fit and he passed out and they took him to the hospital and they couldn't find anything wrong with him except that he was only sleeping four hours a night for several months on it he's also one of these guys that's super super high metabolism like crazy high metabolism not necessarily to the point where anything's physically wrong with them but if he doesn't eat every couple of hours like low blood sugar but you're only allowed to eat at the designated mealtimes there's no sack breaks so sucks to be you right that's a side note that's not even the fate of really the story this is a site though so there was a couple of different things that was happening so I started falsifying those statistics at the same time I my phone broke in early 2017 my phone just it I dropped it in the toilet and it broke the phones that they give you as a see Eric member are heavily monitored everything is run through a server in Los Angeles at the main seared bass security guards check call your texts they took all your emails they check your phone usage it's a neutered phone you can't get on the internet with it or if you can't get on the internet certain sites are blocked and they monitor your usage they can record calls if they want to they can see your call logs the whole thing is super heavily monitored and I gotta interject real fast here that's probably a direct result of what me and other Sea Org members did back when we were in abusing quote-unquote the privilege of having the phone because that was not that way when I was in the Sea Org up until 2012 the phones were not you know data they didn't have data but they weren't going through some server that was being monitored by pack security that was not the case ILO security okay okay but yeah so yeah as of late 2014 2015 all the phones get run through the ILO servers and they're all fully monitored she does manage to learn from its mistakes when it comes to authoritarian measures they have to take in order to control people yeah they learned the wrong lessons Chris yes just saying that's my point so so my very heavily monitored in bunt phone on the Scientology phone plan fell on the toilet and died a very sad and watery death so I had to get a new phone and when I called up to you know headquarters and said hey my phone died I need a new phone they said ok great send us your old phone and we'll send you the new one in about two weeks and I said aha no no thank you but no I can't wait two weeks I'm out in the wilderness here like I'm on a recruitment project I literally use my phone every second of every day I can't go to Meeks with no phone that's not gonna happen but of course I didn't actually say that out loud I said yes sir and then I never sent them the phone what I did was I took the SIM card and I put it in a new phone um and then I guess like a couple months later they were like she never sent us the phone yes well deactivate it so then I just got an entirely new phone and through no you know cunning deception or planning or anything like that it wasn't what I was trying to do um but all of a sudden they have this phone and it had Internet access it had unlimited data nobody was monitoring it though it was tracking it and I had a line into the outside world yep you slipped through the security rats and again just like I did you know different ways different different means but the same result you got on the Internet exactly and I went on Reddit and I didn't go on Reddit looking for looking for anti-scientology anything um I went on reddit looking for [ __ ] to do cuz I was bored and I was more or less managing everything you know one-handed just like hey do this do this keep everything kind of rolling and then I had all this free time time where I had to look busy how many other C word members were with you on this mission you were on so initially there were all lots and then after the or grande opens there were less in them a couple months after that there were only four of us and then there were only three of us and then one of us not me a girl who's no longer in this year who you don't know her name was Nia she stole fourteen thousand dollars out of the ordinary okay and that got caught on security cameras uh so then they're like - oh now you mentioned her before when we were talking why did she steal that money uh well so the orc had rented an apartment for the staff because when they recruited all these people they pulled them in from other states because there weren't enough local Scientologists to manma org so he reached out and they found Scientologists who were in other states they flew them in but they need uh no place for them to live so they rented an apartment they set it up with bunk beds and they had like a communal staff house and the Lord was paying the rent for that the rent was due and Nia needed to pay the rents she was in charge of the staff logistics and for whatever reason instead of telling somebody hey I need money to pay the rent she went into Treasury and stole fourteen thousand dollars to cover staff rent for a couple months this is Silicon Valley so the rent is like really stupid hi yeah exactly I just wanted to point out to everybody that she wasn't stealing it and putting it in her pocket oh yeah no no she was not stealing it for her although there was like two thousand dollars that was never accounted for and no work but the majority of it was for the staff rent okay we was just a really stupid way of trying to solve that problem so she got kicked out and she got kicked out of the Sea Org for that um so then I was just - oh just me and one other person so there was nobody monitoring me right there was nobody physically monitoring anything that I was doing at that point cuz you're the other person who was on the mission with you was full-time working mostly on making income that's right yeah okay he was full-time making income right so he's over selling people stuff all the time he's not paying attention to what you're doing all he was paying attention to was chemical like can I keep the stats going up can I keep my area under control so he doesn't have to think about it because all he's thinking about is how do I make a hundred thousand dollars every week so that I can keep the staff pay going up so that I can like keep everything rolling and so that we can not get new right okay so your robber they're falsifying statistics so everybody's thinking the org is delivering more that auditing and it's delivering but in the end who prepares and and so then what happens so I start going on Reddit and I start going on subreddit specifically to meet people not necessarily like a romantic capacity just to meet people I just wanted to talk to people I just wanted to talk to normal people and find out what are they like what are normal people like now let me ask you here cuz this is actually really important I know people are gonna be very curious about this so you had done your EPF couple years before gotten all gung-ho God opposed you actually liked supervising these executives from all these different organizations bad back in LA and so so did things start changing and you started kind of going negative Nelly again on Scientology because of the post change and you becoming a mission here yes okay it was definitely the post change I was definitely salty about that I really liked my old post and I was really like not happy about that changing it was again the pressure like I just don't do well under high intense pressure who does I get it totally yeah but you know intense pressure it was being again separated from my husband for like two years it was also one of those things where they say oh you're just gonna be gone for only three months and then all of a sudden it's two years when I initially went up to Mountain View they said Pat for two weeks oh my god they really said that to do something totally different than what I stayed there for oh you got switched around okay got it yep yep this is this this is the consequence by the way for those of you out there wondering how this is so insane there are too few people for the number of things that the Sea Org tries to do it's legit self way too thin all the time [Music] exactly so with the transfer itis that goes on it's even a term in Scientology it's called transfer itis is chronic because they're constantly whack Amole that's right the only way the only way that you don't get transferred there's two ways not to get transferred in one way is be super super trained so you're irreplaceable which is what happened with my husband and the other way is to be so dumb that no one wants you how long would you say would be a at an average time somebody would hold a post in Scientology in the Sea Org before they get transferred a ramble years maybe two years yeah I mean depends on the person depends on the post it's the average gets skewed because you have these guys that are just lifers and so you end up with you know Chris and Sonny holding the photo for a decade and a half because nobody can replace them now right right the newer guys definitely get shuffled around a lot more until they find some niche that's right and eventually even the veterans you know the Sonny and Chris's or me I mean when I you know we got kicked off my left my post I think it kicked off when I left it after eight years and management that was the longest anybody that I knew in the entire time I've been in the folo had had hole had held a single post was 8 years yeah for me so then so there was I'm trying to remember what all the factors were so there was there was this huge history of you know ups and downs do something I like and get it taken away do something I like and get it taken away do something I like and get it taken away there was obviously you know two abortions the vasectomy that's a little emotional abuse there was I had reached a point in the marriage where I was more annoyed by my husband than anything else and I knew that was wrong and one of the things Scientology teaches you is that if you feel that way about someone's because you've done bad things to them that's what I couldn't talk to anybody about this there wasn't anybody that I could go to and say like I'm not in love with my husband anymore I don't think this marriage is working I don't want to go home and visit him I would rather be out here I would rather not call him every night and say goodnight you know I would rather just leave it but those are all warning signs that I'm a bad person so I couldn't talk to you thing about that right but that's where I was at and then I started talking to people online and making friends online and I didn't tell anybody I was a Scientologist I didn't tell anybody I work for the church you know if I got really friendly with somebody and talk to them multiple times I would say that I worked for a church but I would never specify what church you know I would say I'm a volunteer or I would say you know I work two jobs just to explain why I'm always at the office you know different things like that but there were things that I would say that people would like twig on and they'd be like that's weird that's you know why haven't you seen Game of Thrones or you know I haven't you seen Rick and Morty or why do you work 100 hours a week and still somehow not have any money to do things they were asking all the right questions right and those were all really good questions mm-hmm and so it made me start to ask those questions of myself and I just was very lonely I was really lonely all the time there was a friend that I had who was somebody who I had trained we started texting we started texting on whatsapp he's in a different country or on a different continent but we texted every day for almost a year and this guy is absolutely one of my best friends never any romantic anything um but he is I'm he was closer to me than my own family he was like a brother to me and he is a super dedicated staff member and he is absolutely miserable absolutely absolutely miserable and that broke my heart more than anything else because this guy is so dedicated he's so dedicated and he is so sad all the time what is he sad about what does he tell you how he's always working at the orc he never has time for his family he doesn't have a girlfriend he's not a bad-looking guy he's super cute actually he's a total cutie um total catch but he doesn't have girlfriends doesn't ever had even have time to get a girlfriend um he is extremely broke because he loaned out all of his personal credit to public so that they could buy services at the org he doesn't hardly sleep because he's always trying to make money for the org he doesn't you know no matter how much he tries no matter how hard he works it's never enough and he's always failing and he's and he's this is not a seorak member this is somebody else this is somebody who I had trained yes this is a staff member Joe was one of my students who I stayed in contact with over email and then once I got my phone though it wasn't being monitored I started just like texting him and shooting the [ __ ] all day yeah did he ask you how you had so much time on your hands to shoot this [ __ ] doesn't see her just wondering no and I didn't ever ask him how he had so much time on his hands just one of those things we then we started we made up um we started writing like a little side novel this is really silly this is like how sad we were we started writing a little side book together about an alternate universe where we were not Scientologists and we were just dumb 20-something year olds having a life Wow Wow because that was our escape that was how we could escape it and just we would just when we were super stressed we talked about like this is what my you know alternate universe person is doing right now right and it would just blow off some steam okay cuz realize like in Scientology he has a staff member or a cierk member you can't just go to the bar after work and get drunk and like forget about your day you can't do that nope you cannot you can't smoke a joint even if it's legal in your State nope that's not an option that's right there is no way to blow off steam like that that's right like seriously unhealthy I mean seriously unhealthy absolutely and that's not to you know promote unhealthy alcoholism or you know overuse of drugs or anything like that but it's your your ways to blow off steam or so seriously limited because anything that you do outside of post is other fish exactly you know yeah I guarantee you I guarantee you because of the way I escaped su York members are no longer allowed to go to the gym while they're on mission I guarantee you and I will tell you about it so um oh I'm quite sure that that poor guy who was your mission in charge I feel so [ __ ] bad for him I really do but he was a good guy I don't marry him any oh well at all and I'm sorry he had to go down but like I'm free so it was worth it no I I definitely agree with you on that and he could be too I so hope he does okay so yep so these were the factors that sort of we're going on - yeah okay that's right that's right so um the other thing that happened right at that time is one of the networks was this young guy who was a brand-new C remember very new Scientologists tattoos all over and prior to Scientology he had been in a bands to the head toward like a full-on band he toured Europe and all sorts of things and so he wasn't he didn't have quite that same like martyrdom that old sirak members house and he didn't have any problem with asking for time off which was very weird so he would like he would ask for time off you know once a month which was huge and that's huge right no I did definitely for the Sea Org it definitely is the serie that's massive yeah uh so [ __ ] warped ear came through and he calls me up and he's like hey warp tours coming through Mountain View in in a couple days you want to go and he got us tickets and because my stats were up I got us okay to go to warp tour so he took the day off and we went and it was amazing and I was like is this what I've been missing and I was like what the [ __ ] so then I there was one other there were like two other concerts that I got tickets for that were spaced out you know warp tour was in I think June and then I got tickets for a concert in August and I got tickets for a concert in at like the end of September right beginning of October and one of them I had to like fly to LA by myself and do all this stuff by myself and wait up you know just go to this concert by myself in LA and then get on a plane and come back all by myself which for any other 27 year old is like cool good job you put your pants on today but for me that was like that was massive doing this thing all by myself and also I think proves like I can go do things and come back and you know I'm not a risk of running away and you know you can trust her and whatever right so I started experiencing things for the first time that were fun just for the sake of being fun not in a big group with other cierk members as a bonding exercise not as an award for something just like I paid for this thing and I went and did it by myself and it was fun and I like I don't have to depend on others for my own happiness and that was really huge I really have got the plate that I was missing out on life I just didn't really know what to do the impetus wasn't there you know I had sort of carved out some small freedoms for myself in that mission but I knew that I couldn't keep it up forever I couldn't keep falsifying the stats forever the mission was gonna end at some point and at that point my little house of cards was gonna fall apart like there was no avoiding that at some point I would have to go back to LA they would find out I was falsifying the stats I would be nuked and that would be the end of me um so we got a telex saying your mission is gonna end soon you're gonna come back to LA probably in the next couple of weeks basically and that point I went I can't do it I can't go back to LA I can't go back to it I I gotta escape I gotta run away cuz I had already tried to leave um several ways I already knew I wasn't gonna be allowed to leave I wasn't gonna be allowed to take my husband with me he wasn't gonna want to divorce me I wasn't gonna be allowed to go back and say I want a divorce there was no way I was gonna be able to keep you know my my things hidden it was all gonna come out that I didn't falsifying the stats um it was I wasn't gonna be able to keep it up and my phone would be taken away my freedom would be taken away that was gonna be the end of it yeah so right about that same time I met a dude on reddit we were talking we hit it off you know I let him know the first thing that I told him was that I was in an unhappy marriage and I want you know I needed his help to run away then he was like let me think about it it's a little fast we've only been talking for a day that's fine keep going okay I have to tell you I'm also running away from Scientology and I told everything I mean everything so at this point now we've been talking for two days granted we talked all day both days until like 5:00 a.m. like we talked but it was two days so that is the second day I saw him Scientology he goes that's a dangerous cult I will not help you run away with me as a romantic prospect but I will help you escape from the dangerous cult so we started talking on a Tuesday on Thursday I went out bought a prepaid Visa and booked a flight for Saturday morning at 5 a.m. which meant I had to keep up the facade for the rest of Thursday and all of Friday and make sure that a nobody noticed anything funny and nobody noticed that I was acting weird and B I had to make sure nobody found out I was falsifying the stats within that you know 36 hour period which I almost got caught by the way Friday I actually had a very close call on Friday and somebody thankfully not the person in charge not my boss but one of the people that I worked very closely with noticed that there was a discrepancy in the logs and actually came and confronted me and was like can you explain this and I was like I made up some [ __ ] I literally just made up some [ __ ] cuz I knew I knew that he trusted me enough that he would believe whatever I told him at least for the rest of that day and by tomorrow I would have escaped right right so Friday night comes 10 o'clock leave the org I deleted all of the logs by the way before I left all the all the statistical logs where all the stats were capped all the records you took it you just took him out and took him out I deleted all of them I mean they were gonna know I falsified it but no way in hell were they gonna be able to correct it you know it's Nick believe me this is not important in anybody's mind so but you I thought you would enjoy that oh no I do I think that's hilarious yeah uh so yeah I shredded all the hard copy logs and I deleted all the soft copy logs so um get home so now my my mission I see my mission in charge he liked to go to the gym that was how he relaxed that was how he unwound which is totally fine there's nothing wrong with that so he had a routine you know Friday Saturday Sunday Monday we would get home between 10:00 p.m. and 12:00 a.m. and then he would go to the gym for like two hours and come home he was total gym rat so I knew that was his routine got home Friday night waited until he left for the gym made sure he was going to the gym real casual I had established a routine where we just be at home we do our separate things we don't interact once we get home we just he does his thing I do my thing I go in my room I had already told him that I had insomnia so it wasn't unusual for the light to be on in my room until 2:00 3:00 4:00 in the morning what I was actually doing was I was up on reddit or up on YouTube and just you know [ __ ] around on the internet but I told her it was insomnia so it wasn't that wasn't unusual so as soon as he went to the gym I threw everything and I could fit it into a carry-on bag and a backpack all the clothes and laptop and shoes and just whatever I could fit in there I threw that in there I called an uber left the light on in my room and locked the door behind me so you know if he came home and tried the door he just think I fell asleep with the light on took it over to the airport and that I was free and that I met at the airport was the longest night of my life because I got there at like 11:30 12:00 and they had closed security so I had to wait outside of security until like 4:30 a.m. when they opened it back up that was the vulnerable period because if he had come and found out that I was missing during that time period and he had gone to the airport to find me he would have found me and he would have physically restrained me from getting on the plane right yeah I mean it would have been a little difficult for him to do that with TSA standing right there but yes I definitely get that he would have stopped you he would have stopped me yeah and there would have been no talking myself out of that situation right there would be no explanation I could all for that you know oh yeah no you wouldn't it could be I would have been the most busted so that was the longest night of my life um it worked as you can see I got on the plane you would think that that's the end of the story it is not oh no the end of the story so um I laid it in Minnesota which is where I am now it's very cold Minnesota folks she went to Minnesota and I wasn't following Chris I swear to God who happened to live in Minnesota I don't know I just find it hilarious personally just the coincidences it's just it's hilarious to me it's really gold I know the negatives yet this year yeah you lucky my first year there I didn't go above freezing for eight months sucks to be you oh god yes it did Minnesota man the place is [ __ ] furred Eskimos have they been plying you with questions about why you moot why why are you at Minnesota do have they asked you that yet it's because I was running away from a call from there like oh yeah I guess it's the only reason you would move to Minnesota there exactly all right so what happened when you go so I arrive I go to my new apartment meet my roommate um he's fine it was fine we got along alright you know settle in immediately start looking for work I had a temp job within a couple of days and my first day at work this less than a week after I got there this was four or five days after I got there um I get a text from my roommate he says your brother's here I said what the [ __ ] do you mean my brother's there and he says your brother's at the door pretending to be a delivery man asking for you ah sidenote I do love my brother he is very dumb not a smart man but I do love him dearly alright is he now he's a Scientologist is he a seer grandpa he's a staff member he is an ethics officer okay at an organ where's Kenny org okay so they got him on a plane they got him to where you were living they found my address which I had left no record of because I did not know the address of where I was going until my plane landed in Minnesota right my roommate did not send me his address until I was physically in Minnesota mm-hmm and how did he send it to you uh he text it to me through discord okay write this word app on my phone so I knew my phone wasn't bugged yep there was no way they could have bugged my phone yep I had never given it to anybody I had never left it anywhere it was a secure phone what I did do was I used my laptop to write and send out resumes thing they had bugs my laptop right because I did not put my apartment number on my laptop so they did not know what apartment number it was so my brother went through the whole code no knocking on every door looking for me pretending to have a package for me Wow my roommate called the cops they escorted him off the premises because your roommates awesome yes my brother and I'm I am here assuming that they sent someone with him I do not think they would have sent him by himself I'm sure they sent a seorak handler with him probably somebody from Oso or an ethical officer I would assume the same thing yeah I'm assuming there was somebody else I never saw them I don't know who it was but I'm sure somebody came with him but they staked out the apartment for three days three more days until they caught me going inside and I'm walking into the apartment at 8:00 a.m. spent the night over at a friend's house got dropped off in the morning my brother comes bolting out of the side parking lot just running full tilt and this kid is like he's not a kid he's twenty four five but this kid is like 510 511 solid like 250 we wrestled for all four years of high school like almost took a state title he's big it's like a big heavy dude um grabs me and it's the bear hug and like I know he didn't mean anything by it I know he was not trying to physically restrain me because that's not how his mind works that's not how he thinks he just wanted to give me a hug because he was scared and nobody told him like like I don't know what he was told but he's crying and he goes mom and I have been terrified for you you've been missing for a week you know you won't answer any of our phone calls you won't answer our emails you won't answer our texts which by the way the texts the hippin sending me were like we forgive you whatever bad things you've done just come home and like we can fix this it's it's there's nothing so bad that you've done that you can't make it right which like thanks guys for really assuming the best there okay well that's exactly I mean that's the I really want to point this I really want to highlight what you just said because it is all about victim blaming the whole Scientology culture is victim blaming that is a huge thing that's the point and they don't even like the word a victim in Scientology is a slur that's right and I don't know if you've covered this before no we definitely have but it's an important point to stress like the other points we've been stressing you know it's like it's not like your brother is sitting there thinking I'm gonna victim shame her now they're all just as Endora nated into this stupid mindset but it's absolutely it's your thing this is what's gonna convince me like oh I totally understand you did something bad and I still love you even though right not not why did you run away are you okay do you need help you know exactly that's the difference that's right you know I forgive you for your sins and transgressions which you clearly must have committed to have taken on like this and we you know we don't really care if you're okay we just want to you know you to know that we forgive you because we're the sanctified ones and you're the one who's in the wrong right here and now that's right yeah that's right yeah so that was sort of the vein of all the text messages and everything else so here he is I am super tired I'm trying I'm just trying to go inside so I can go to bed he's bear hugging me crying on me I go Nishan don't touch me get off of me I'm gonna go inside and I'm gonna go to bed and you're gonna leave and he's like what are you talking about what are you doing here and I go I am exactly where I want to be I know exactly what I'm doing I'm not a Scientologist and if you don't leave I'm calling the cops and he goes you would call the cops on your own brother and what do you mean you're not a Scientologist and I said I mean exactly what I said yes I would call the cops on you get out of my way I don't owe you any explanations and he was like he was just shocked he was totally floored and he I moved him out of the way and I went inside they went upstairs and I called the cops anyway you know you're amazing I'm serious I'm just gonna stay up straight I just want you to know you're [ __ ] amazing that is a tremendous show of strength for somebody who was dazed you know a couple weeks out of the cult I just tell you that is very unusual and very amazing and you are amazing I really appreciate that yeah thank you because I would not have been able to do that within a week of of taking off yeah I just I I just knew that if I let him talk to me if I let him keep talking and if I engaged in any conversation with him it was over yep like I knew and I think I called you I was calling you like yeah I was also calling you about things like how do I get paid at this point we had all with the aftermath foundation I think you had put an application in at this point but we were at the wheels going on that right yeah it's just a lot there was a lot going on so I was talking to you I was talking to Aaron was talking to Claire and Elise and we were just all sort of talking and I was going to you and I was going to Aaron quite a bit about just different logistical things about how to survive in the outside world and how to like exist as a normal human not feel remember and just different things so but that really helped honestly like having you and having air in having my roommate having even just a very rudimentary support system in place really helped just knowing that I wasn't alone really really helped and I also just knew that if I if I let my brother talk and if I engaged in any discussion with him that was it like I would be [ __ ] there was not going to be any coming back from that and I had one too much I had I had already given up too much and and gone too far to be able to go right and I do like looking back on it now I wish that I would be able to have a conversation with him now from this viewpoint of where I stand now where he would actually listen to me and I wish that I would be able to have that conversation with my mom or many of my friends who are still in Scientology because there is just a lot that they don't know and they're suffering because of it and that is really tragic but from where I was at that point I wouldn't have been I would I didn't have the capacity to have that conversation so I just knew I had to get him off of my doorstep and I had to get him out of my face as fast as I possibly could and and I knew that that was that was the only way I was gonna be able to do that is when I just shut it down right away right it was good strategy it was very well done thank you so I did call the cops they showed up he was already gone I gave them his phone number this was I don't know this is a Minnesota nice thing or what it is it was very cute the cops actually called him on his cell phone and they were like did you come to Minnesota to stalk your sister and the cops called me afterwards they they actually called me back so I gave the report I gave him his phone number cops went away I get a phone call later and the cops like yeah so this is what happened when we called your brother and he said yes I am in Minnesota to try and find my sister and they were like okay well she doesn't want to see you and you need to leave now and he was like okay and he never bothered me again you know that is it god damn that that is a proper law enforcement officer response to somebody escaping a [ __ ] cult it was really great it was very huge that is really good and I just I'm just gonna point this out because it's been all over my mind today the LAPD the Orange County that they were sorry the Riverside County PD the Clearwater PD I mean he's these people were bought off they would not give you this or that you got from the Minnesota police and I just want to highlight the difference because people are going insane wondering why the LAPD and the Riverside police and sheriff's deputies and the feds won't do anything about Scientology well there's an example of somebody who's not bought off doing their job I wasn't expecting a call back I got a call back it was really nice yeah that's awesome so um they did leave somebody behind or since somebody afterwards who staked out my apartment for a while I got you know I was walking out to work one morning and someone drove up in a tinted windows like SUV and took a bunch of pictures of me and drove off my roommate worked from home and he told me that yeah there's somebody like parked across the street just sitting there all day watching the apartment pretty usual mo which I don't know what they expected to find like I don't know what good that was doing them like okay you know where I live you obviously know where I live like what are you trying to do here I think what they were trying to do to see you know is they were looking they were hoping that you were gonna have physical contact with other suppressive people or or other excellent ologists they don't yet know about oh they're always looking for they always want to know who are all the connections they are obsessed with connections yeah they have grass yeah well I didn't I disappointed them I didn't actually get in physical contact with anybody so much to my dismay if there's any espies in the Minneapolis area you want to have a coffee and a chat hit me up like I'm totally down but no so I actually I actually ended up meeting my boyfriend pretty shortly after that and I moved in with him that's where I'm living now I'm talking to you from our bed and I got I had a temp job I now have a permanent job which I am pretty happy at it's an entry-level job but it's gonna pace me enough money I have benefits and stuff I'm working 40 hours a week like a normal person instead of 100 hours a week like a slave and we got a cat yeah but you're living in sin you sinful I mean technically I'm still married I've been trying to contact the church yeah I wanted to bring that out I've actually been trying to contact them for two reasons one I want my w-2 for last year which i think is a legal thing so they don't give it to me I will really be very annoying to them um I want my w-2 and I want my [ __ ] divorce papers there's like I'm still legally married to a CEO remember I would like a divorce I'm sure they'd want that tie to be severed like there's no way someone is sitting there going you know what's super cool we have our power CS married to a declared SP yeah I don't I don't know if I'm declared I had a thought today I had a really evil thought today which was I should just walk into the Twin Cities organ be like suck can I see my declare order am i declared hey hey [ __ ] am i declared yet and either they will say no we don't have any declare order on you or they will say yes here it is now leave but what I think they will do is say no we have no idea at which point I can happily just contact all of my Scientology friends and family and say Twin City said I'm not declared go for it you have the freedom and power and ability now to contact anybody and everybody you ever want to know it's it's yeah it really is it's one of the things that it took me actually way too long to realize is that I mean I'm talking years it actually took me a long time to break out of the mindset that I didn't have to live my life as a non Scientologist by any of Scientology's rules I know it's crazy I keep realizing these things yes they really sneak up on you and they I feel like it maybe is go a little faster for me because I just hit like the hard reset button yep you routed out properly and did the whole thing and it was a little more gradual although I have to say after you once you got declared you hit it really [ __ ] hard I was pissed yeah but but you transition a little more slowly than I did I just I just hit the hard reset I was like [ __ ] this do-over yeah that's right and you're doing just great you're doing just fine so yeah so just keep going doing what you're doing I think I think now that we've got the bulk of your story out here I think we're gonna move toward wrapping this up now I really appreciate you taking the time and yeah and like I said I wanted to give you as much breathing room as possible you know there have been mistakes in the past made with people who have just freshly come out and put on video and then things get rough and then you know that kind of stuff and we didn't want any of that for you I wanted to make sure you had you know stable life sorted out you know to some degree you know you've got my book you've got other books you've got stuff you've been reading and educating yourself on it's been I'm sure a whirlwind for you totally you know I'm still growing I'm still settling and figuring out life and figuring out how to live and who I am and and whatever I'm really I'm super lucky my boyfriend's very very supportive super supportive I found out that grocery shopping gives me panic attacks so he does the grocery shopping okay yeah that's a new one that's a thing apparently when you live your entire life not having to choose how to spend the money you don't have on food that you don't prepare for yourself all of a sudden all of that choice at once is a little paralyzing weird right I totally get it I totally get it yeah okay well again thank you you are awesome you are a wonderful example for others you know and and we'll see where this goes you know and we'll see what happens with your family and stuff too because doors aren't closed you know it's not all hopeless as far as all those people go in fact if there's any time that we've ever been in where there was a better chance that people coming out of that nonsense it's now totally you know and yeah I just I do hope that you know whatever I do I do want to help other people to get out of Scientology I do want to help other people who escape oppressive situations that they may be stuck in you know I I do want to do for others and help others in the way that I've been helped since leaving them it takes a lot to leave I know what it takes to leave and it's it's hard yeah so yeah cool okay well I think we're gonna be keeping in touch I am sure we will we will talk again in this venue in some fashion or another sure awesome

Channel: Chris Shelton, MSc

Views: 35,694

Keywords: Scientology, Sea Organization

Id: LvX_cEmPWYI

Length: 189min 28sec (11368 seconds)

Published: Sat Jan 19 2019