Send them back: The Parthenon Marbles should be returned to Athens

hello I'm Xena but are we welcome to this intelligence squared debate coming to you from Cadogan Hall in central London we have a very contentious issue for you today our motion is send them back the partner marbles to be returned to Athens now as I'm sure most of you know the partner marbles are those classical Greek sculptures that once adorned the Parthenon temple in Athens sometimes known as the Elgin marbles well for 200 years they have enjoyed pride a place at the British Museum in London is it time to send them back or should they stay where they are where we have four speakers are going to be debating our motion for the motion British MP Andrew George and also broadcasters Stephen Fry and arguing against the motion British MP and historian Tristram hunt and professor of history Philippe Fernandes our mesto that is our panel welcome to you all tell me what's going to be happening our speakers aren't all going to be making their case to you and then I'm going to throw the debate open to the floor and our audience were actually polled as they were coming in to see where they stand on this motion and at the end of our debate we're going to ask our audience to vote again to see if any opinions have shifted so first of all our first speaker the Liberal Democrat MP Andrew George who is also chairman of Marbles reunited which is a British campaign dedicated to sending they part in the marbles back to Athens your time starts now thank you very much zeyneb in our view and that is Stephen and I for for Britain to enable the reunification of the path the marbles would not be a humiliating climb down for Britain it would not open the floodgates leading to the emptying of the British Museum it wouldn't undermine our ability to be able to compare and contrast cultures and human endeavors across the world and across across time but it would be the right thing to do it would it would right or wrong the manner in which the marbles were frankly pillaged from an occupied country at the time using a dodgy dosia the concept of offer of a universal museum is something which has only been kind of constructed during the the period leading up to the creation of the of the New Acropolis Museum a magnificent Museum and we do have a choice on the one hand we can persist in in clinging on to the Greek Marples as exclusives were thin until we're forced in some kind of cringe making and rather shameful climb down to hand them over in some perhaps decades to come or as Stephen and I are seeking to argue believe that Britain actually wants to appeal to Britain's own better instincts than than the rather arrogant acquisitiveness which has been displayed at times in the past we should be leading an initiative to reunify the marbles a British triumph doing the right thing a graceful act we are seen to offer and cooperate Britain standing proud enhancing our reputation in return receiving as we never be would a rotation from the Greeks over time in the decades to come of some of their finest sculptures and artifacts which would more than compensate for the loss of the path and freezes and meta pays rather than rehearse I think the many arguments that have been pursued in the past about whether they were acquired legally and I think the Furman that was secured from from the the Ottoman Empire at the time by Lord Elgin only allowed him in any case to to sketch to to take castings and to and to gather fragments that were scattered in on the site itself not to amputate and to butcher and to demolish the the the structure of the path on itself in order to be able to drag these freezes and meta pays from from from the from the Parthenon itself if you support the the logic and rightness of the of the of the unifying of the of the path no marbles and the logic really is that they should be seen in the context of where they come from and the building to which they were originally attached this is not a case to advance Greek nationalism or apply in appropriate modern political significance to to remarkable artifacts it is a call from Britain British people for Britain to do to do the right thing to do something graceful and triumphal to say we celebrate diversity in this country and rightly so and we should respect the diversity of the world outside our borders Thank You Xena Tristram hunt against the motion that the partner Marva should go back British Labour MP and also historian so your time starts let me say first of all where our argument this evening does not reside there is no cultural chauvinism here we all know that even in the current straitened times that athens is just as well-equipped to look after the marbles as britain the curatorial interpretive conservation skills at the acropolis museum are equally as world-class as those at the british museum secondly when it comes to the history we are not going to suggest that Britain should keep the marbles because if Lord Elgin had not taken them then the French would have done so what is true and is important to acknowledge is that for all this talk of dodgy dossiers the marbles came into the possession of the British Museum legally and this is what makes the case so different to any parallels with the Nazi looting of the 30s and 40s or the antiquarian thefts of recent decades the Parthenon sculptures were acquired in the early 1800s according to the existing laws of the land this might be uncomfortable to acknowledge but it is important to establish the facts at the time of Lord elegans excavations the Ottoman Empire had sovereign authority over the Parthenon and specifically transferred the ownership of the property to elgin's and the legality of the Elgin expedition has been in effect acknowledged by the Greek government which has never challenged the ownership of the marbles in an international court of law so legally the case lies with the British Museum the question is one of morality and functions our argument this evening is that the marbles are a vital conduit for the cosmopolitan interchange of ideas and culture and must remain so I have the great privilege of representing the great city of stoke-on-trent in Parliament and when I go around the world and I see Wedgwood China in Bombay museums and mint and tiles on the floor of the Capitol building or Royal Doulton designs in Melbourne I don't think we have to get this stuff back to North Staffordshire as quickly as possible I think how wonderful it is that the rest of the world is coming to know of the great history of design and manufacturing in the Potteries but if we send back such an iconic collection as the Parthenon Marbles we have indeed started down the slippery slope which would rob our museums of their capacity to nurture a cosmopolitan sensibility the purge might begin in the Devine gallery of the British Museum but before long we are emptying the Egyptian galleries of the Rosetta Stone as well as the Ethiopian tablets the oxen treasure and the Benin bronzes the move would be emptied of its Venus demillo Apollo Belvedere and Borghese gladiator The Hermitage would lose its Madonna litre the Pushkin its Priam's gold and so the list goes on who knows perhaps even the National Gallery in Athens would have to rescind its Bruegel's its dellacroix its Mondrian its Picasso for the result of such tit-for-tat Recovery's will be a global loss of learning of appreciation of understanding whereas at the moment the Parthenon Marbles are a part of a museum that celebrates the historical and cultural context of their form it points to their global significance in the context of ancient Greek art culture and comparative global civilizations and it does so in a museum that speaks to the real message of the Parthenon sculptures and Athenian civilization this is a museum not interested in petty nationalism invented traditions and imagined monuments instead in its enlightenment origins when the classical virtues were rediscovered it revives the lessons of ancient Greece it is a global vision of cultural exchange and humanism and in our fraught age of mass migration post colonialism economic depression and the communal Reaper of terrorism this approach offers a cosmopolitan ideal beyond race ethnicity and religion which is vitally important to modern culture the people of Greece should have intense pride that their Parthenon Marbles sit in the midst of the British Museum and that is more important than ever today in the 1930s economic depression led to xenophobia nationalism and cultural retrenchment in these equally stress times we have to work together to ensure the same mistakes are not repeated we need internationalism not nationalism cosmopolitanism not chauvinism the sharing of cultures not the worshipping of icons Athenian civilization and the Greek heritage is an idea as much as a place and now is the moment to be true to that calling and to reject the siren calls of restitution enlightenment civilization cosmopolitanism all these ideals yes Andrew lofty ideals high-minded ideals demand the marbles remain available to all free to all the world in the British Museum ladies and gentlemen I urge you to reject this motion and remain true to the marbles thank mr. hunt thank you very much indeed and arguing for the motion steven by writer actor broadcaster you name it he's done it all is getting arguing for the motion I'm firm I was very disappointed it just him hunted and Marvis MP in a splendid man in a very fine historian he had she used the phrase slippery slope and the very fact we want to return the freezes and the metaphase of what now everybody is far too embarrassed only very recently to call the Elgin marbles the very fact we want to return them to the place where they were born does not mean that the Rosetta Stone is going to go back to Egypt as has already been said the idea that a museum is some whole perfect finished Victorian idea of a kind of pantechnicon of all world knowledge is nonsensical like all things it changes and my proposal to you is very simple how classic it would be if you went in to the British Museum and in the place where now you see the phrases that algún took you saw a film of how they were cast because they can be cast unlike a painting you can only photograph so what you would see when you went to the British Museum you would see a period 200 years in which we curated them beautifully and they will send see the journey of these extraordinary pieces of pentelic marble being returned to within five miles of mount pent Erica web where the marble was quarried and where that extraordinary temple the Parthenon was erected to Paris Athena the goddess of Athens the reason its importance in Athens is because it's all about Athens there are 192 soldiers on the freezes because 192 soldiers died at the Battle of Marathon and it was between the Battle of Marathon than their own defeat at the hands of the Spartans between that period Periclean Athens that saw the rise of everything that our culture now depends on philosophy logic Euclidean mathematics empiricism a refusal to take on trust anything that is told to you Socrates died by that principle history algebra astronomy justice the areopagitica the hill up to which they went to dispense their justice every citizen available to do by no means was it a perfect society women did not have equal rights pederasty was rife but heck I was at a public school there's nothing new there so the fact is everything our enlightenment is predicated upon Athens and around that time the Enlightenment it so happened the Ottoman Empire had completely overtaken Greece now the idea that it was a legitimate purchase by John Bruce at the Earl of Elgin is like saying the American ambassador to the Netherlands went to Amsterdam when the Nazis had invaded and did a deal with the Nazi ruler of Holland to buy Rembrandt's Night Watch and it was all signed yes we are we are the Germans we own Holland's we are they are under our occupation and you can have it it's yours and then Congress then said yup yeah it's perfectly legal we now own the Nightwatch Greece was under occupation nine years after nine years after Elgin took those raped those beautiful and extraordinary pieces of history Byron died for that cause there are more statues of Byron in in in Greece than their own Britain and the Greeks started their war of independence against the Ottoman Empire which they eventually won in the eighteen thirties 1832 I think so we're not talking about some simple business of an English ambassador doing a deal with a legitimate government who gave him the right to take away the stones of the temple that absolutely characterized and personified the greatest civilization the world had yet seen the one on which ours is predicated and all I'm saying to you is wouldn't it be classy if we as Britain said yes for 200 years it's true we've saved it if my neighbor has a fire and and and I go over I say well I'll take the paintings a bit before they get burnt I'll put them in my garage and they come back three years later and so come my paintings back oh no oh no you can't have them back they'd be burnt if I hadn't taken them that's that's no argument that's just beastly this it's just beast leaders and perfidious Albion which is the name by which Britain has been known for so long it's dis untrustworthy country that still has colonial ambitions let's not be that anymore let's be a classic country let's make an exhibition in the British Museum of which Britons could be fantastically proud which shows our curation of these extraordinary marbles and also shows their transportation back to the Magnificent new Acropolis Museum where they can be reunited not in the same temple because that can never happen but bear within through the glass in the blue light of Greece a country struggling desperately under debt we can show them that no matter how much their sovereign debt crisis means they owe us we will never ever ever be able to repay the debt that we owe Greece think now making his opening statement against the motion is Felipe Fernandez our mesto professor of history at not redeem at university in the United States and your time startsnow I'm going to do what I usually do at these debates and dessert the brandies and come down and join you can the cameras depart with our professor on our side of the house we have a great international treasure indeed a global treasure a treasure for the whole world which is the British Museum which thank God yeah has abandoned at some time vocation as a national and imperial institution the British Museum is a resource of the world in fact it is the great archive of the history of the world in terms of its material culture the documents of the material culture of the world are best represented in the British Museum than anywhere else III it British Museum now only in the sense it happens to be for historic reasons in Britain and is supported by British taxpayers for the benefit of the whole world it's a museum in which every great civilization is represented but now is privileged every religion appears but none is preached it's a genuinely universal place and of course now I we did say all this I have said it wouldn't be proper for the Greeks to display these these artifacts but it's a different sort of it would make to them if they were transferred to Athens wouldn't be that they would be in a different kind of music a museum which is a mirror rather than a window a museum the significance of which is local regional national in which people can look at the artifacts from the Parthenon in the context of a history of Athens and degrees whereas if some of those marbles those which are present for historic reasons in the British Museum's connection stay here you can appreciate them in the context of the cultures with which they are directly comparable in the rest of the world you can see what Athenian civilization be if you believe as the gentlemen on the other side of the house or so eloquently said if you believe that there's something special some special greatness in ancient Athens you can only appreciate that if you look at it comparatively in the context of other great civilizations of the time that's why we have to have places like the British Museum in the world and why is the greatness of ancient Greece along with that of other civilizations has to be represented there by great and important artifact we don't play that you know Britain is in some way a continuation of ancient Britain modern Greece is not a continuation of ancient Greece I did have time to dismiss the remaining points made on the other side of the the house but I do have time to appeals you to keep intact the British Museum of precious resource which this country has maintained at its own expense for the rest of the world if you violate the integrity of the collections I that there is no tsipras safe ghostly honorable gentleman is right about that I don't believe in precedent time of professional intellectual I spend my life shattering precedents that unfortunately the courts due respect precedents and if we violate the integrity of this collection it will be decimated whizzing all British Greek or Spanish if you're a citizen of the world defend the British Museum vote for it's integrity and survival tonight not for Greece not for Britain but for the world I beg you to join me in opposing emotion all right well thank you very much indeed panel for your opening statements arguing you're putting your case now I'm going to throw it to the audience you can put questions or comments to any of our panel members but before we do that I want to let you know how you voted on this motion send them back the part of the marbles should be returned to I think stroke briefs immediately okay for that motion 196 196 against the motion at 202 very close but the dope noes are a hundred and fifty eight so that's very exciting it means that this side could win with this side we could win or to play for gentlemen so let me ask for comments and questions from the floor I'd like to ask first of all if there is anybody Greek in our audience Wow plenty look like she'll a little children so many of you I had no idea okay Greek with a microphone microphone I said any of our words are are they Stephen right and I would like to just give you some bullet points that the marbles has been very well taken care of by the Greeks in Athens the marbles have survived two world wars two bankruptcies one civil war and one dictatorship and they were very very well taken care of during these times so I think this indicates about the priorities that the Greeks have and you also mentioned and that they were legally acquired in the eighteen hundreds this is a very gray area and I would expect you not to have made such a firm a statement and I'd like to remind you there is no Furman there is only a translation in Italian and there is no feminine assad's but the letter that was not a fair manner such okay thank you another Greek with a microphone okay yes are you agree well okay when the spirits of a senior democracy perhaps I can definitely I think on Stephens point about comparing the Ottoman Empire with Nazi Germany was a cheap shot the Ottoman Empire was not an answer Germany in fact many in fact perhaps the majority with senior officials were in fact Greek if the cosmopolitan multinational Empire created an obviously big there were atrocities but it was not the Nancy Empire any stretch of the imagination and finally I did go to the museum last year I beg to differ from with all due respect I do not think it's a great museum it reminded me of Stansted Airport in its architecture it is certainly not the British Museum and a second very very important point if you go to the Acropolis and go to the top of the Acropolis there has been restoration of many of them monuments on top of the Acropolis and last 15-20 years and the obsessive b2 mill vandalisms so I really do question your point also that the authorities in Greece able to protect these marbles the restoration that has been done on the Acropolis not 20 years is appalling all right we'll get a response we're getting it's even a valid point they're made about the Ottoman Empire and Nazism is just the best recent occupation example I can think of but it was an occupied country yeah but the Ottomans governed their lands with a light touch as you know and they know years later the Greeks rebelled and were allowed to have their own country and we're a good not comfortable that it's not comfortable in the sense that all the terrors of Nazism did not attend the Ottoman Empire it was an occupation the point is the occupying force does not have the right to sign away the goods of the country that they've occupied all right um Tristram this point about the Fermin and i should say that a Fermin is a license and letter of instruction which Lord Elgin received at the time from the Ottoman Empire so that he could remove this but there is some question or some people doubt that it was actually I mean something you said out because of the Italian translation so on I mean do you accept this a little bit of a gray oh well I I actually don't because if it if it is a gray area then then why hasn't it been challenged in in a court of law the whole point about the Nazi looting for example this has been systematically challenged and questions of ownership in courts of law and you can go to any number of international courts of law to pursue this and it it never was I think I just think that the Greeks didn't want to diminish themselves by actually taking early you know illegal your remedy to this to this issue is quite clear that the Greeks want to engage in a negotiation which an enable along a long term loan I mean what were the problem with the problem with the negotiation so far every time the issue is raised you can't get beyond a precondition that the British government and and the British Museum are saying that you have to renounce legal title before we commence any negotiation with you but and that is a clearly cherish and ridiculous way in which you are intimately right and if the question of ownership is settled ie the Greek government agrees to the ownership of the marbles under the auspices of the British Museum then the British Museum has said time and again that they're very happy that be delighted to lend the artifacts but at the root of this question is do you believe in a national conception of culture or do you believe in an Enlightenment cosmopolitan International inception of culture I just want to pick up one thing that Tristan said in the light of the Greek contribution about the fact that the Greeks do not dispute the ownership I mean they have acknowledged publicly Evangelos Venizelos who was Culture Minister back in 2003 wrote to the Sunday Times newspaper and said that the Greek government's position is that they do not accept that the trustees of the British Museum owned the Parthenon but that is the point and that's why we can't have the mature relationship in terms of loans and scholarship that we all want to see we're not all getting left Athens with his booty his pride art they would turn that him he left some of it behind in Italy and it belongs to Italy as it were belonged to Italy and in 2008 the Italian president took this isn't those elements if we slope isn't it no it's quite the answer he just the Italian president said well these are these belonged to the pastor and he gave back there was a ceremony ceremony in which he said there you are prince you could have any okay what didn't happen was Greece said ah now you've given us that one you must give us all the others there was no slippery slope lots of hands there now okay audience who's got the microphone near them I wondered is there something to inform both sides of this argument that there is such passion about the return of these particular works of art other works of art that have been taken from other countries never seem to be the focus of this type of perpetual argument and I guess we could say on both sides that that would inform for and against and I wondered if you could just briefly touch on why you think these sculptures inspire people to this degree okay very briefly why are these unique but just why they unique but they haven't been in the past this is what's interesting for 150 years you didn't have this kind of emotion sir pounding them so it says something interesting about modern Greek identity and nationalism but that doesn't necessarily speak to their innate aesthetic virtue okay who's got the microphone I'm dismayed to hear so much discussion about the legality of this transaction I believe that society has led us to think legally and to somehow totally forget that there are morals and ethics that with I think we should be standing by and referring to a previous speaker if some of the marbles we're in Stansted Airport so much the better they'd be seen by millions okay so this gentleman here the main thrust of the problem of the marbles has not been discussed tonight they are a single work of art they represent the Panathenaic procession they should not be divided if the head of David was in the British Museum and his body in the Offit's II gallery we should think it was strange those marbles should be reunited okay thank you some people think that because the marbles are universally agreed to be one of the most important symbols of Western culture that putting them in the same place with them at risk if there were a fire or an earthquake or a terrorist attack at some symbol of the West and that by keeping some in Britain some in Munich someone to Louvre some Elkins house I'm at the Parthenon Museum were sort of safeguarding against future accidents because we couldn't really afford to lose them and I was wondering if anybody has any opinions on that thank you well I think I think one of the ends of an answer that by saying that the moment the British Museum can basically concede that it is not the owner then the Greeks will take them and the Greeks will be happy to loan them around the world that's the point that the moment think what I mean I mean there is a conservation issue with taking them around the world I mean there are there are delicate the British Museum is willing to make lens of the parcel and marble subject the usual requirements which attend all such exchanges concerning security and insurance and conservation costs but it is absolutely critical to any lay the part of the condition is that you should be willing to give it back and unless you know people are willing to give it back it's not alone it's another pillage it's another big thank you hundred years it's good enough but the fence is making the point that that's the British Museum's position that there's a lady there yeah and then I'll come back to the panel the legal case does not rest in favor of the British Museum unless you have read nothing they are the receivers of stolen goods and the British government at the time was the handler of stolen goods the refusal to return them now is based on such patronizing empirical attitudes why should the Greeks be proud that the half their marbles are in the British Museum why should they would we be pleased nay honored if half a stone Stonehenge was up Rome I think not I don't know about that I'll be I'll be I'll be very pleased to have as much of British culture shown around the world as a symbol of our history and heritage and identity the Greeks should be you're so proud why one of the top three museums in the world which gets the largest the third-largest volume of attendees in the world has pride of place for the symbol of Greek civilization I know believe in internationalism either you believe in cosmopolitanism and you believe in the values of a part ordinarily they aren't exactly bathed in Aegean light are they in the glue well of the gallery in which they are shown and small and the British Museum caused enormous damage to and great many of the marbles by cleaning them with wire brush when that was back in a mighty Legion when I was an altar team I believe there is a mixture of natural and artificial light the Stygian groove of London doesn't prevent people from seeing the marbles and they wouldn't be particularly enhanced by but every of every every place in which they are exhibited and they're exhibited in various places it uses a mixture of natural and artificial life not going to make a great deal different Andrew George photo on that question that was raised which is the slippery slope I know you Steve when you said you don't like that but the fact of the matter is why the Parthenon sculptures and not other artifacts well I mean I just don't follow this kind of floodgate slippery slope argument at all every case has its own very unique and different merit and each one has to be taken on its merits and and if you don't take each case on its merit then and you believe that you're simply establishing a precedent which which will result in this slippery slope you end up with us with this perverse situation where we seem to be saying that we cannot give you justice because we may have to give justice to someone else in in the future I mean I mean this is this is clear clearly clearly not sensible but it is true or false that everybody thinks their own cultural artifacts are of supreme importance and that's why there is no slippery say why one does have to take account of the argument about precedent because it's legal precedent that's the danger we have international conventions who avenges 954 1917 1983 and 2003 which govern the and regulate the exchange of cultural artifacts around the world and we need to adhere to those conventions because if we breach them if we were to reach them by submitting to the demand for the return of the parthenon marbles or any other similar artifact there are many many different objects reachable are actually far happy to make our perform a better case to their restitution including you know the Bennion bronzes the Ashanti treasure the looting of the the syringa patan a whole lot of the comics I designed some of them mason makings and artifacts in the last time would have been relocated if the demons were to take a precedent of the sort deal involve those international agreements why make an exception of the Parthenon sculptures I mean there are so many things that's the bust of Nefertiti in in Germany absolutely there are all kinds of works at the British Museum alone an incident I also adore the British Museum but when I look at the these these bits he's shaved off sawing off bits of this massive temple that was erected to celebrate the triumph of Athens and I was to start off the beginning of the Athenian Empire and I'm not embarrassed to be a Eurocentric about that because I'm European I'm fascinated by the building bronzes I'm fascinated by by civilizing that they should be repatriated no I it's just that is just another way of saying the slippery slope it seems to me there is such a clearly unique case to be made there was an individual who went specifically and fraudulently took away from a building pieces vital pieces of a narrative frieze and the meta pays that described that city's existence at the time in that country was under occupation that 20 years later it was a country again and Athens was its new capital and we should have said where we've saved them for you now it's time we can give them back to you it doesn't mean we have to give back the rosetta stone to whom would we give it back we don't know to whom it belongs but we do know to the Pathan belongs it belongs to the people of Athens and the people of Greece okay yep lady here I have a real issue with this denial of occupation of Greece I'm part Turkish and I can safely say Greece was occupied it's as simple as that regardless of municipalities the Ottoman Empire - the occupation it was just the parallel with Nazi Germany I'm sorry - England you can compare to England occupy in France or Rome occupying ancient the British Isles whatever it was still an occupied nation and it's very dubious how those marbles were taken away that's all I have to say thank you no comments or Shh lovely in Greece I mean during international is oh I am for internationalism but I think it would be polite to ask for the other party with pieces of its civilization it wants to ser and reply to the why question why the marbles I think it's the obvious for me the integrity of it I mean it's a one piece of art it's supposed to be together and I think that's the manor but can we go back to you are you absolutely certain in terms of the Egyptian artifacts in the National Archaeological Museum in Athens that you would you are absolutely certain about the elements of their restitution about Egypt wanting them back what does this do to a new European a Mediterranean culture when everyone wants everything back just missing so you give them back yes an actually gave tract and nobody doesn't demand you hold what the wonder of your the wonder of European civilisation is this exchange of art and artifacts if we look at the history of King Charles a second if we look at the history of King Philip the second you have extraordinary royal collections you have extraordinary national collections which are shared out over centuries across Europe why do we want to particularly at this time of crisis and stress all retreat back into our own narrow cultural identity I'm not arguing for anything like that I'm just saying I don't know how I don't know if you've seen the figures I mean you have a dorsal and that the chest is missing I mean how is that something that it's worth being it's like is it here it's like it's like you're tearing the Mona Lisa in half and how we come in two different locations one's clearly absurd one great minister said it's like a family portrait with loved ones missing isn't it just very quickly tell us how big an issue is this in Greece obviously everybody wants them back I mean is it a very big live issue but with the economic crisis it's on the back burner well it is always a major issue I mean if a Greeks learn now that the British would be willing to discuss it who would probably forget about the crisis and we read about the Greeks you know supporting the yeren 70 or 80 percent I mean if you ask for the marbles I think will be much more than that close to a hundred percent and the main argument I'm not claiming to represent Greeks I've been living here for 11 years but I think that the main argument is the moral one it's a unite it's one piece of art and it's supposed to be together I do hope everybody does understand I hope it's common ground on the platform that the the the reason why the marbles are divided and why they're so few of the pieces are intact is that for many centuries the Parthenon was subject to the most outrageous pillage and destruction the biggest of which was when it was converted into a Christian Church land father when it was converted into a Muslim mosque and then when the Venetians blew it up and then when they the Turks but when elgyn got there he intended only to make casts but he found that the local population were grinding up the statues for for lime and the Turks are using them as target practice I really must stop you minigolf I mean yeah we're going to run out of time okay who's got the microphone hi this is not a view of scholarship this is a layman's interpretation but it seems to me if we Herald exchange with you spoke about Tristram Chilean exchange not based on pillage but based on a classy act and goodwill is really is born out cosmopolitan it's born out of a sense of internationalism we would achieve the same ends if we were to return them and we'd still achieve exchange but be based on good well all right pass the microphone very briefly I'll be very brief Tasos it's hopeless and another Greek in the audience I just want to say that there was some very admirable and and reasoned arguments on by both Tristram and Andrew on on either side but but for me as a Greek it was extremely touching to see the the passion and the heartfelt emotional argument that that mr. Frye gave so I just want to say thank you from my behalf and other Greeks this young boy here and then that's it okay Britain has a wonderful history of idiocy in arrogance mr. frog mr. fry said that we could make perfect copies of these marbles and casts cast yet that's it if we gave them back we could have perfect copies of them and the friendship of the Greeks I would far prefer that to the originals I don't see how that helps us at all all right well I got to leave it there Alton thank you very much indeed for your contributions audience I now have the results of the voting that's been taking place as we've had these uh final interventions from the floor let me remind you first of all how you the audience voted when you came in before the debate for the motion that reminds you send them back the Parthenon Marbles should be returned to Athens for the motion 196 against was up 202 s2 and the dope knows were a hundred and fifty eight this is how you voted after the debate for the motion 384 against against the motion sorry 125 the joke knows were only 24 so you lost 77 votes I'm afraid and you gained the lion's share congratulations to the winners commiserations to the losers thank you to all our speakers thank you to you the audience in Cadogan Hall and thank you also the BBC world television audience wherever you are wherever you're watching from me Zainab Adamic Cadogan Hall in central London goodbye you

Channel: Intelligence Squared

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Keywords: Intelligence Squared, Debate, great oratory, Intelligence Squared debate, speech, top debates, best debates, most interesting debates, educational debates, intelligence2, intelligencesquared, is debate, iq2, iq2 debate, iq squared, Stephen Fry, Tristram Hunt, Felipe Fernandez Armesto, Andrew George, Zeinab Badawi, Parthenon Marbles, Elgin Marbles, BM, British Museum, Looting, Greece, Acropolis, Athens, Greek, etabedselbram

Id: YE7DpRjDd-U

Length: 46min 38sec (2798 seconds)

Published: Fri Jun 22 2012