my father just did his thing and he was with the geneves family I had $1,000 I was looking to save up buy a card he says oh he says uh let me see you got $1,000 he says give me that money you wanted to make money I said yeah Dad so now he started show me how to loan the money out listen when you when you're offered that kind of life it gives you that sense of you know belonging my guest today is Joe Baron Joe is a former associate of the banano crime family and one of the longest serving FBI informants in Mafia history he was undercover feeding information to the feds for 18 years Joe's father was a soldier and Hitman for the geneves crime family but when he was brutally murdered by the mob in 1989 Joe decided to flip in our conversation he exposes what it's like living a double life working for the mafia and the FBI and tells us who the biggest gangster really is for more content with Joe go over to patreon.com theconnect show without further Ado this is one for the books everybody I give you Joe Baron right here on the connect with Johnny Mitchell they said we want to show you something nowadays a stack of photos like this of my [Music] father the cemetery digging him up and him on a slab when I signed the papers that I'm going to cooperate with them I says listen I want to find out you think we're going to find out who killed my father he says eventually yes that's when I see lights behind me start the Flash and I didn't even think I just hit it I was driving like my life depended on it and then I parked the car popped out closed the door and I started running and he pulls out a burner shank it's like 6 in then he passes it to me and he goes here that's yours don't ever leave the cell block without this he was the reason I made it out of that place alive yeah Dom and I are like yeah he's good Dominic right yeah yeah but he's a real like he's a real business-minded kind of dude he was that way all the way all while just well I can tell you that on the show but he's because he got more refined but he got when Vinnie groomed him he changed and so everybody goes wow he really changed he's more more B more right but yes he was business but he he a gangster though more Ruth his life right which is probably why he moved up the way he did so quick is because he's so good at at both you know he's such a gangster but such a good earner that's why when you hang around with somebody like that I was saying before was I really the good guy trying to be a bad guy or was I really the bad guy pretending to be a good guy yeah because you get around people because where we grow up and how I grew up you be around like a guy like Dominic he's real so you want to you with them you feel that connection yeah it's almost like when people go to prison we're against the the cosos you you form a bond yeah you know it's like weird did you feel fake you know all these years undercover pretending to be somebody you weren't and then you look look at a guy like Dominic you know a thorough real dude did that eat away at you a little bit it eat away at me a lot because I never expected to be friends with anybody I didn't expect to get close to anybody like with a feeling wise I expected to get close because of that's what I was supposed to do you got to remember these people they're the ones who can sense you out they know when you're going to tell them a lie or you know they're not stupid you know so the only way in with people like that you have to become the real thing and that's one thing the FBI never could understand you what was I supposed to do no matter what I'd have to do I'd have to be what I was supposed to be yeah you can't not commit crime and be that deep undercover they tell you you're not supposed to initiate crime so but if now say there was a fight that broke out into a bar I'm not supposed to fight oh I'm gonna hide oh I can't do this no I mean thank God I was able to fight too which was good too that helped but still at the same time I I had to do that yeah that's why the FBI the rules it's almost like when you seen the devil's advocate he goes yeah you know he says God's a prankster he says he gives you these great senses he goes look don't touch touch don't taste right taste don't swallow you know which one is it how do you do it you can't you know you can't split your body up in two I'm a human being I have emotions do you regret it and I know I'm asking this is a question I should ask at the end but is there part of you when it got super stressful and you feel like you're getting torn by both sides at the end of the day do you sometimes say to yourself I should have just done the time uh yes um because it's not that I was looking for any kind of pad on the back or anything because I did save the judge's life and I did save the aoc's life and stuff like that and that's kind of like in a way cool yeah don't get me wrong uh but at the same time it it was it's not really who I was it's not really me but my feelings overwhelmed my my sense of kind of that honor that Justice that I was or that that that down deep hardcore I was lived with I was born with because uh like I said I got close to Dominic we were like almost like night and day I mean in the beginning we we pick like this and then we like two PE in a podt well let's talk about it and let's let them decide so you they call you the long long long EST standing FBI informant to inform on the mob the American Mafia One the best they've had yeah one of the best they've had yeah yeah next to like a Greg scarper he was long time in there too he was the boss wasn't he no he was uh I don't if he might have been a captain but he might have been on boss I don't know but he was high up there he was the Philly guy right no he was in the Columbo family oh wow yeah he he was oh the killer oh yeah they called him the Grim Reaper not to his face yeah but they called him they called the Grim Reaper and he was look I I mean he had almost like permission to do anything too just like they gave me permission to kill a gangster too yeah which is what nobody would expect they they probably think from TVs and movie they're like okay if you're the FBI will let you earn they'll let you run your lone shark and your your gambling but they won't let you commit murder you're saying that's not the case when I got arrested and U pinched on my second bid and then I told them i' be willing to help them out and cooperate to you know um so what they did was they said okay Joe we're going to give you money we're you going to put it out in the street he says you know like that I said okay that's no problem you're going to give me the money yeah okay I said so let me ask something what happens when the guy doesn't want to pay what do you want me to do and they don't answer you so they're saying go get it yeah they're saying go get it with they're silence yeah well how else am I supposed to collect yeah you know uh I mean I used to get like collateral because that's the new way to collect now you don't want to just say okay we're friends if we're friends you don't need to borrow my money MH you know if your friends need a 100 bucks or something to help you out real quick no problem I'm going to give you tens and thousands of dollars you know unless you're going to put something up for it cuz something could happen to you there was a guy in my neighborhood Who theyed call him Carmine smash now Carmine smash they said oh because he used to smash fingers and everything the real reason why they called him Carmine smash was because he was drunk all the time well he wound up having cancer yeah I know this is kind of funny but it's a true story he used to hang around with a guy Al Alex Sone and I could tell you about him too in a minute my father actually wind up killing him but um Carmine uh was wound up getting cancer so he went to all the Wise Guys and he bowed like I think it was maybe up to $300,000 now smart smart he went to a hotel he gave his wife the money he died in the hotel and the wife said I never knew he bed any money and then she packed up and moved to Florida yeah there you go yeah that's that's the Wise Wise Guys girls retirement plan that's it he he set up his wife yeah so you're from you born in 1962 where in 61 where in New York are you from did you grow up I uh I was born and raised in Nelle New York which is a suburb uh they call it the Queen City it's five minutes from the Bronx you're from Westchester County correct okay so your father uh wise guy you were born into the life yes on both sides of my family both sides your mother's side too yeah who was involved there so this was follow me for a second so it's my uh my my mother's mother which is my grandmother MH her sister's husband's brother was without Capone and they killed him it's all documented we have all the paperwork um they killed him uh for whatever reason I don't know but they went to go get his brother to say give us the money and he was a barber he was just a regular guy and uh he says I don't have the money but they threatened him they scared him so they said we'll be here at the end of the week so they packed up everything they got ready to move and then when they came into the barber shop he blew them away with a shotgun wow and so what happened was he moved to from I think it was Virginia it was a place in Virginia where they uh there was a big flood out there I think it's called Johnstown Virginia but then they moved to M marinick New York which is still Westchester and then from M marinick they moved to Nelle where he opened up another bar barber shop and 20 years later they shot him wow and so did did he have rackets too beond The Barber Shop nope he was just a regular guy oh wow yeah and I felt bad for him because he wanted to get El's timers and he used to walk the street and I tapped him on the shoulder and he used to get scared like cuz he thought they were still coming to get him damn yeah so your father's side was the side that you were groomed yes from cuz my mother's from calabia they're from they're calab and my father's from Sicily right so with theing is more that's the way it goes that's where it originated from of course so you're a legacy Wise Guy pretty much but I was never supposed to be a wise guy if I tell you I was a pothead when I was a kid that's what I was I had long hair um all right I had a few fights maybe here and there I broke a lot of bones in this right hand but uh I was not looking to do that you know my father just did his thing and nobody talked to me about it what was the family he was with he was with the genev with the geneves he was close to the lucasi family at one time too he used to hang out with a Rudy pipolo who was a captain in the lucasi family and they it's actually he got arrested in the 70s for uh what they used to call the tail end of The French Connection it was like a heroin thing and he only wind up doing three and a half years on a on a on the Biggers back then you used to only have to do 65% of your time oh it was great so he got like five years and I think it did three and a half this is your father Yes off the off the heroin pinch yes so he was a hustler yes he was also a hairdresser wow that's how he started he was a hairdresser but he used to it's funny I went to I got locked up in 1990 or 91 and I was hanging around the Wise Guys of course in the prison and then some guy says listen he said this guy Jean knows you he thinks he knows your father so I went and talked to him we talked a few minutes I had some pictures sent in of my father and then he started telling me stories about my Father which were cool yeah he told me how he my father some guy brought him around my father would borrow money and he always came to pay and if he didn't couldn't pay he came still anyways and said look I can't get another one week extension for some odd reason the other guy that brought him around went bad and then my father didn't hang around with him no more they said your father was a good guy and made me feel good yeah and so then there was also another guy they had at my father and they had a little uh uh Del contestant called pippy Deli I was 11 years old giving them coffee de all these guys I didn't know and then when I went to prison the same guys I was given Cofe were in The Joint wow you're were like spider from Good Fellas yeah almost yeah just not as dumb yeah exactly not nearly as dumb no and I would never call a wise guy tell him to go you know go yeah I wouldn't tell him go himself yeah hey guys the NBA finals are here and while I'm kind of bummed to be honest now that the season is almost over I had so much fun watching this year while while I was playing prize picks you guys know by now I've been working with prize picks for a while they are America's number one fantasy sports app with more than 5 million members it's the most fun and exciting and easy way to get in on the action while you're 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they don't like that kind of stuff but what happened was uh there's a guy he's pretty much in charge now a little bit he's like up high up there on ranks probably an under boss his name is Barney balam and uh he took my father for what they would call like a walk and talk he took him on the BQ at like 2 o'clock in the morning the BQE because they pulled over and you can see if the feds are following you there well he's slick this guy baronnie he's smart speaks flent Italian and uh he said look I know what you did because my father told me he says look I know what you did before but that's past he says you're over here with us now and uh that was it they got him strained out he didn't get stra he didn't get straighted out out the he was like in his 50s okay so but he he eventually became a soldier he's a m guy yep uh left the drugs alone yes and he was into besides a hairdresser uh what was what were his underground rackets so he he actually had a uh he was like all the trucking companies like that were in Queens and all those places like that he was getting money from all of them and I know that only because after he went away on the lamb I actually went there to S collect the money and I used to give it to this guy uh who used to meet I forget who he was I used to meet him at the Jacob Javid Center on the corner yep because I work there as well too can we talk about the javet center really quick the Javit Center is like it's a New York um it's like what tourists on buses go to see they're like this is the javet center a bunch of Asian people are like what am I staring at why do I care about this but for some reason they've made it a Manhattan like you must see right well yeah I mean all the shows are there right right but the what is the history of the creation the building of the Javit Center well it was all organized crime in there building it I mean and don't forget too The Westies had that for a while the Irish mob right it was the you know the Italians who actually took it from them and there was a big little bit of a war over that unfortunately the Westies there were some tough guys in the westes but that war went on for a little while but of course actually we won exactly now you're what are the wars over the the construction contracts the who's supplying the cement I mean there's so it's such a big building there's so much the mob can make money from like 25 different ways from building something like could could you just like give us a broad stroke about how the mafia would make money through construction like that it's always just who you know in the construction you always have somebody that's in the cement business so you always underbid it because we always get tips on who's bidding the the mo you know and then we bid it really low because we're paying really low we're really paying nothing but explain that what do you mean so it's like we got such a good deal because of the inside track that we have and it's not a case where we tell them you're going to do what we say or else no that doesn't work anymore what we do is we going tell them we're going to get you the job so we get you the job we're earning with you it's almost like we're Partners but once you get that construction going like that then you got the concrete now you got the Carpenters now you got the electricians everybody's connected somehow somewh in every Union you can believe whether it's quiet or whether it's known the only reason why they do it that way is because um everybody wants money and everybody wants more jobs so the guy's legitimate yeah so now instead of doing five jobs a year big contracts for two three 400,000 or maybe even a million dollars now he's getting 10 right who's gonna say no to that so let me see if I got this straight and I may not they're you find out they're building the Javid Center uh you have people on the inside that give you a tip like hey this is this is what they're bidding on concrete and you say great we're going to underbid that and we're going to under are we're going to under bid on uh the Carpenters and on the electricians and these are all unions that the mafia Tak piece from every month uh but in exchange you're getting them work yeah because you don't that old mentality look if if I told you John look I'm G to I'm going to start messling in on your uh business you tell me no you ain't you know and we're going to have a fight yeah why why can't I tell you listen how about I get you five people a week extra that you would really like to interview oh really Joe okay thanks now you're almost my partner but you know you're making money and now you don't mind giving me some money you don't mind saying hey thanks Joe here so it's not really extortion you're not really you're not really extorting but back then you know in the 70s would you consider that kind of Union manipulation would you that extortion or is that just like bid rigging like what the that's what the government would call that listen big it's almost like this if you were putting if you were taking out $1,000 a week out of your checking account or savings account and you just wanted to take it out because you know if you take out more than $99,000 that's actually even a lot less now I think if you take out 3,000 they they they keep telling the government about it you know what they call that they call that structuring it's your money legitimate money and they call it structuring and they put a freeze on your account that's how hard up the government is to try to get anybody that's doing anything they want more money than they're bigger than the Wise Guys they're the biggest Wise Guys out there right now we're going to get into that yes but so once this Javit Center was completed I can't what year was that like early 80s ' 80s I think early like a little bit earlier yeah so there was a ton of you know millions and millions of dollars went into the pockets of the the geneves or was it a bunch of different families it was probably a couple of them but yeah but my bosses they were the geneves that was running it now you know from Mafia lore movies TV a project that big they would show like heads of different families sitting down and saying hey we all got to eat on this one yeah do you know what I mean like in The Sopranos they're building the Esplanade and Jersey and New York's like hey look we need some of our scabs that's right in there is that accurate would they actually divide up a piece of the the pie well because there a there's a collaboration you know it's um it's uh I'm trying to put it the right way because like did you ever hear of the Windows case no that was a wind well it's pretty with the windows case it's obvious they had contracts to put Windows in all the new apartment buildings but that wasn't just one family that had that that was like I think two or three of them were involved with that and um so that's how you you everybody's earning yeah plus it's a big thing you're talking about big Contracting big you know not you know concrete somebody got one concrete somebody's got the electrician Union and you want to all make money like that that keeps the peace that keeps everybody happy oh and what better way to make illegal illegal money than through this like through legal really legal construction project in the you know most expensive city on earth if you know most Wise Guys today most of them really have legal businesses you have to yeah well Dom who's been was on here he only had one his height in in the bananos as a captain he only had one illegal racket had a huge sports book everything else 10 other businesses were all legal completely yeah he was he was um he actually was always trying to help me get into the legal businesses with him you know so I always had to thank him for that you know he really tried to help me I mean I was doing very well on my own right um and now you so the Javit Center a bunch of young people from The Neighborhood Italian neighborhoods they all got jobs there because they were all connected with somebody that was a part of the families so that was you got a job working there most here I'll tell you sometimes you got the job most people had to pay 20,000 just to work there can you explain what that's about because well because that's unusual most most Wise Guys are broke I was with a guy beansy down there beansy nice guy was with py fats down there which is uh uh this another guy he's a a captain in the in the geneves family too um say this is his brother but uh I got it my father Bonnie said to my father what's the kid doing he says he ain't doing nothing he says say send them down there I go down there and I'm got to go see the guy who's running the place which is Ralphie Capa may he rest in peace he's he's going now and um not by choice but um he's gone now and he says what are you doing you got to have a carp in to belt on I didn't know nobody told me so I had to run up the street I spent like $50 for a hammer I had to get the all the tools like I was really working you know okay so these are these are scab jobs these are sort of but I did work I did put the boots together for like the car car shows Diamond I got into to get in there free so I did work not really work what was the point what was the paying 20 grand to get a job there what was that you were making about back in the 80s you were making I think it was $24 an hour and then overtime was $47 an hour so I was getting a job going in there midnight working till the next day right and you know so that was a great middle class living back then correct so and the and the the mob says hey you just got to give us this you gotta get basically give us like half a year salary yeah but then you're gonna be set up you're in the union yeah you're in the union you're in the union so you know who cares about paying for that listen I did that I was going to do that my before I took my second pinch right um I was supposed to get a job at the sanitation department now my cousin who passed away so I could say his name now my cousin George Patty had a connection in there I was going to be making $90,000 a year as the head of the sanitation department now it sounds like a dirty job no pun intended but I didn't have to do anything I was going to be in the office they're going to give me a car and I was going to make $90 ,000 year legally so between that job my million dollar home I had and money in the bank I was set right so you didn't have any Ambitions to become maid I was never really gonna be a wise guy John to be honest with you you know I really never was I I was I was I was a Carefree kid right I joked around a lot um I stopped smoking weed when I was 14 so I started when I was actually 11 so that's how I was but um you know I've seen things happening and stuff like that and uh I actually was supposed to be a postman because two of my uncles and one of my cousins were postmen I actually passed a test with like a 90s something and they called me in that they only wanted to give me a part-time job and I'm like I want a full-time job but I didn't know that that's the way you start to get in so it didn't happen and then little by little you gravitate towards that did your father want the life for you you know he never ex never said uh do you want this like like when I was asked to when I was going to be get straightened out my father had asked me I was a kid I had I had $1,000 I was looking to save and buy a car you know who don't want a car today you know what I mean so anyways uh he says oh he says uh let me see you got $1,000 says give me that money you want it to make money I said yeah Dad so now he started showing me how to loan the money out and so like I only had $1,000 but I was collecting $130 a week for 10 weeks so I made it profit of $300 where was I making that kind of a profit of course right so now I said I I could do this so now my father started showing me and I started getting more customers and showed you how to Lone shark yeah did um he had a a business as they say y did he had what else Sports he did Sports y okay uh he used to work at the Gin district there was a lucases I think the gambinos and I think the geneves were down there too and there was some problem with uh everybody getting their their cut and so for some reason they knew my father and they all vouched for him to make him be in charge of that then he had two number stores in Mount Veron New York so he was doing pretty good the number stores got robbed now this is what was kind of funny he says I went with him to the number stores and I thought he was bringing me there to watch his back because they got robbed but then when we lost the number stores he got mad at me and said I took you over there you didn't look like you took to it I was like you just tell me to learn it I would have did it then because they were making big money we had to pay this guy I forget who he was he ran Mount Vernon it's another Wise Guy cool guy if I think of it I'll remember but um uh he was paying that guy because he ran that town but they was making big money do you what is a number store not running numbers take numbers like you could go to a lot store and play well give me a 365 straight on a number or give me uh two in this you know it's like regular numbers like horse racing well most people don't know because I don't even think numbers exists anymore I think you still play it with the lotto though right you play it with the lotto but how did the mob you know the street numbers back in the day how did that work the street numbers is better because you don't get tax taken out of it right right but what are they betting on they're the horses okay so all goes the horses I see you bet on horses I see and so they wow so would they let civilians come into these underground numers stores oh all the time my my cousin and his dad used to have a right was a Del contestant so they'd all come in and they'd walk out with a sandwich or whatever like that some people would play quarter some people pay a dollar some people pay $10 listen one time they paid out was like 20 grand the boss actually got mad at them and it was a problem over that but yeah they make big money and then when they pay in the cops they get a phone call and then all of a sudden everybody started selling meatball parmesans again you know what I mean it is exactly they got a call from the cops that the cops are coming so this is like Serpico it's like you know they had numbers stores numbers uh collectors in the back of yeah meat markets delicatess whatever the runners he used to go to different stores and stuff like that uh that's what Malcolm X if you ever read his autobiography he started off he was a numbers runner in Harlem when he moved to Harlem and he kept it all in his head because they would arrest people they would stop little black kids and they would arrest them and they'd have a bag full of numbers so he started remembering the numbers yeah without writing them down you know and that's hard to do but there was believe it or not my cousin was pretty good at that even though they did write it down but it was it is hard to do to remember depending on how big the business is no kidding um but you want to make sure everybody gets paid too because that's what it is they always know you pay them and that that's what it'll always go to you now in the Harlem days uh they used to only pay nickels and they were playing like pennies I mean it wasn't that a lot of money that's why Dutch Schultz wanted to take it over from the blacks in them days that's why there was a little problem over there hey everyone just a quick reminder that I am coming on the road this summer doing standup comedy June 20th I'm going to be in Phoenix Arizona at the Tempe Improv I'll be headlining there one night only then on July 19th and 20th I will be back in Chicago Illinois at the comedy bar I'm doing four shows two on Friday two on Saturday these are some of my favorite cities to do comedy in so if you're a fan of the show get tickets come out and see me you can go to linkt tree.com Johny Mitchell to get tickets the link will also be in the bio of my Instagram again that's link tree.com Johny Mitchell all right I will see you out on the road America let's get back to the episode when your dad got straightened out did you notice a change he came to me and he said listen they they uh they proposed me and I'm you didn't want to straight me out I said well what do you want to do daddy goes I said it's a big big respect thing you know what I'm saying because listen when you when you're offered that kind of life it is a it is every everybody's if I put it this way better everybody's looking for something whether it's religion they go to or another gang they go to or just even a band you're involved in it gives you that sense of you know belonging and so when you get a people like this who are actually capable of doing more than just singing a song like in a band you're it shows it means that they accept you and it's a big sign of respect at least that's the way it used to mhm uh but my father took it you really can't kind of turn it down he had nothing else to go with and did did he start making more money though oh yeah okay oh yeah because don't forget you got a crew uh some people were making good money before they got involved like even Dominic he was making good money himself before he got straightened out right yeah but once you're once you're made it's like no it's mandatory you're under me and I'm going to get a piece of everything that my crew is bringing in well don't forget too because you're around certain people it's like anything else you you'll you my father always used to tell me hang around with people who are smarter than you why well because now you learn more so when you learn more you're able to expand your uh knowledge about making money or or looking for a future or whatever may be so when you get hooked up with a crew well now everybody looks at you so more people come to Opportunities you you saw uh Good Fellows yeah you remember when that guy came to me he says oh it's play you come in with Tommy D you take the suitcase that's because now they can talk to you like that that's what they used to do to me guys used to come to me Joey you know listen can you do this can you help me can you yeah before you know it everybody started coming to me yeah it's like being an entrepreneur that finally makes good you get successful and then then people start bringing you deals you don't have to look for them anymore and then then then can you borrow the money can you take care of my girlfriend who cheated on me and the girls were coming to me can you take care of my husband my boyfriend whatever but then they also come to you it's almost like you're an entrepreneur but you have the best of both worlds you have your brain to be smart to earn the money and to see where there's a little hook where you can help them and help yourself too but you also got the muscle to back it up in case something goes wrong yeah that's like almost like a win-win it's like the United States everybody says we're going to get blown up we're going into Wars and all of this stuff but are you really looking to press the button with all the weapons I mean is it really where's the wind here see so you have to you got the best of both worlds was your father a killer oh yeah he had bodies on him in that perod about four I think four bodies that I can remember under his belt yeah and do you know what those are over can you talk about him yes one of them that guy Alex Sone uh uh he was a tough guy matter of fact he had pieces of skin missing from he was fighting some guy he was a tough guy now don't don't I'm not knocking alexone even though he's gone but he used to talk like I I smacked that guy I smacked him because he was all Punchy and he actually had papers that was legitimate that he was crazy he he belonged in a mental hospital he had legal papers and K my smash used to bring him around to collect money but Alex Alex was messed up and he had a fight with a guy in 21 North up in Portchester New York and the guy was tough too so Alex bit him in the Heap at the the guy bit him back they were biting each other he had chunks taken out of his skin yeah you saw it like but anyway he came to my house like about 2:30 in the morning woke us up and everything my father went outside and he was yelling at Alex and I was afraid cuz my father was not going to be able to beat Alex up I'm not going to I mean he would have shot him but he he didn't have the gun on him he didn't bring it out with him and then I came out there and Alex said what are you doing I said I'm behind my father here what do you mean what am I do you put your hands on him I'm gonna jump you I don't care um but anyway my grandfather was telling him bring him inside we we'll chop him up and yeah so your grandfather was saying that yeah wow my grandfather well the only reason why we didn't do it cuz he had somebody in the car with him and he was and the car was still running I think Alex was in some kind of trouble or something he was looking to help my father to get up but my grandfather was the type of dude when I was seven years old my father said listen if you're ever going to do anything do it by yourself and he meant if I have to kill anybody and I says he you don't know why I was seven years old I said no he said because are you going to tell on yourself and I went no and he goes and that was it then he walked away from me right so he kept saying bring the guy in bring him in Joseph you call my Father Joseph bring him in Joseph but he wouldn't come inside you think your grandfather would have killed him in a second wow my grandfather father his his father killed a guy years ago they used to go back in those in the days in the market somebody my he took a space where his parked some big dude said that you took my space an argument ensued and remember the little sledgehammers the little once he took the ham he hit him over the head killed him he HD in the cemetery for three days the cops back in those days they said no it was just it was a self-defense thing to let it go and that was it yeah Killers yeah just hot blooded Italian Sicilian men but but that was almost like normal in a way you know I mean it's almost listen any cop will tell you too I saw a stupid I like family few because I like Steve Harvey so I saw a show and he says he says yeah I know it's kind of weird but he says one of the questions on there was says if somebody breaks into your house what's the first thing you do do you know what the number one answer was call 911 are you kidding me right really you know a cop any cop even a cop you don't have to like him or nothing but if a cop is honest with you he'll tell you if you can't protect yourself you're just going to till we get there you're a statistic and even Negan you remember Negan from The Walking Dead I don't know if you ever saw that show he there was a thing he said in there and I refer a lot to movies because it helps me talk to explain because my pts hurt me a little bit but he said if you can't protect what belongs to you sooner or later it's going to belong to somebody else and that's the TRU State one of the TR statements you're going to hear because that's what happens so did your father ended up killing this guy Alex crazy yeah um uh they had a suspicion the FBI that my father did now and but he never went down for a body your your father he was going to go down for another guy called Vic Maturo okay wait on that though okay um in in his if he was so you know secretive with his murder game how were you able to find out about it the guy who wanted to testify against my father who was my father's partner when he first got pinched on that her one thing MH he had a picture of him the guy's name was Tommy Murray my grandfather never liked him told him I told him your father not to hang around with this guy but you know how like we don't listen to when somebody tells us something because we know it all anyway he showed me the picture of him he goes he's dead and he was they he was drowned he they found him drowned I I think he drowned because he had two holes right here and I think it kind of helped sink him yeah wow yeah so they they found him in the river yep yeah and my father was happy about that so I know my had something to do with that right so that I'm sure that helped him get straightened out too is that you have if you have a body on your hands I don't know I know it's different now but back in the day they said you had to have a murder to to you understand right because you won't tell well because it shows your loyalty too I mean listen once you got that body that's pretty strong you kill somebody uh that's a that's pretty big I mean and like I said he had killed Alex he actually ran over again because Alex was tough he he shot him he they didn't care CU he told me the story but he didn't told me he actually killed him just told me what happened see my father was like what dominic says and this is anybody that's in the life should know you never talk about a body once it's gone it's gone that's it matter of fact my father was driving with a uh this guy Gregory they used to call him bullets and they were in the car Barney was in the next car with somebody else in the car and they had a I guess there was some union guy or something that got whacked and Bonnie had said to them hey look look at him he looks like somebody we used to know now that's almost like unheard of but that can still pass because he's not saying who is so but that's the kind of guy Bonnie is but you never say anything about anything you ever do yeah because so he ran Alex over shot him a few times ran him over in the Yona cemetery and uh that was that because he I knew he was going to get him because you know I know the guy actually he's still alive I won't say his name but I knew the guy who drove drove him there at what point in your teenage years as your father is now made and you guys are pretty affluent by by Mafia standards you're like blue collar Rich right yes um what when did you start to get involved in Street activity uh let's see so I was a teenager uh when he first started showing me had a loone the money and maybe I was like 19 20 mhm uh so really 20 is really not a teenager but still that's maybe about that age but I also was uh I used to hang around with a a club in my town Nell that used to be called Third Street the Third Street Boys it was about maybe 25 of us strong so you know they kind of knew that my father was connected and stuff like that and then they treated me kind of nice but we had a lot of battles back in those days with the Third Street guys and uh I had some really good friends up there like street fights yes bar fights uh we wrecked bars we uh you know uh if I ever needed him M I had a problem with some guys it was just me and a friend there was a few guys there out of the neighborhood out a party and I called up my guy at this place called it was mag It's Magic it used called previously Samy but anyway I say is Joe Colangelo there and uh he gets on the phone I said Hey Joe how are you he said Joe he Joe Baron hey come on over I said listen I got a problem he goes what I said I got a problem he says where are you I told him where I was he says by the high school I year parkart Avenue at this girl Cathy's house had a party they said we'll be right there three or four cars I fet exactly came out these they loaded with guys one guy got out with a you know those uh Viking axes those ones you like hang on the wall he came out with that so these guys but there's power in that it's like Warriors it's like the movie Warriors yes exactly it like Warriors yep wow yep so you're involved in this is hooliganism yes did you get into did you get into more money Mak uh schemes as you got a little older well because I started loaning the money okay and who are you loaning money to cab drivers uh anybody who came to ask me regular work it's almost almost regular working classes only problem you have is the guys who are actually uh gamblers the gener of gamblers that's that's somebody you don't loan money to right now would you let people know hey uh I'm going to lend you money my father is a soldier with the geneves you know they they found a guy never said that you never even said Hey My My dad is so and so never said that I don't first of all you don't throw around names unless you're doing something uh say I had a problem with you and I'll say okay you go see you got to go see I'll go see my guy you won't even know who my guy is until you get to this place where we got to go meet and that's how you know um but my father I didn't have to say that there was one guy in the pizza paa who own Lo uh my father he own owed my father money and so my father says do I got to call my son in here so he made the mistake in saying I'm not afraid of your son oh and I like this guy Tony I know his his daughter married a nice friend of mine his brother's a cop in N shell and I had to go see him and I felt bad you know after you know I was finished with him you know you you beat him up I had no choice yeah so you were kind of muscle for your father that's correct that's well you got to get started someplace they got to see what you able to do it's like most dads make their sons do chores yes you got a different set of chores I wasn't cutting the grass you were cutting grass yeah you were whooping ass a landscaper I was working for my friend uh Johnny Valente got me a job working he said come on and he always helped me this skate Johnny Valente good really a good friend of mine and uh this guy hired me yelled at me every day I only worked one week with him they were behind and I worked with him I did everything they wanted me to do I wasn't a landscaper but I still did what I had to do so he didn't want to pay me so he says okay I'll pay you the money what it was this is early on he was supposed to give me like $20 he gives me a check for 1250 he said that's where they have to taxes right so my father actually heard this guy telling me my father came running down he grabbed this guy by the collar he said do you know why am he says give the kid the money and he took the money out of yeah yeah yeah and he every time he saw me driving or if he saw me in the din someplace this guy he walked by me he got so scared so sometimes if you had to lean on a guy you might use your father or your father might use his own status to just remind people depending on the situation one thing about me and I'll tell you this and most people would notice and I think most people that I hung around were very family orientated I wouldn't care I'm not I'm I'm not I'm not gonna lie to you I'm not the toughest guy out there I'm not going to pretend that I am I'll fight pretty much anybody win or lose matter of fact we used to do that too my friend used to say years ago the Irish people they were tough and they were actually beating up some of the Italians until we started stabbing them but um you don't ever mess with my family um when my mother was sick and dying with cancer she uh she was she had a fur coat on she was sick but she still wanted to do my laundry I didn't want her to do it but I guess it made her kind of forget that she was dying uh some Mexican guy in the in the laundry mat opened the door she was freezing she said listen I'm sick she talked to him can you please shut the door cuz I'm cold and she told them nicely my mother was a know 53 years old at that time and he opened the door anyway so my sister told me and then so they would they used to hang out on the corner so I took my car and I tried to run everybody over there over because I don't really care when it comes to that that's it uh and then I don't cuz I when my mother father was alive I don't care about doing time and I didn't care about doing time on my first bed before I cooperated which we'll probably get into it's not like I love going to jail and I'm the man and I'm tough and all that no but I was willing to do what I had to do you loved your family love my family and that's it and that's the way it goes so you're you've got a a little lone sharken racket going now you're you're helping your father collect make collections at the same time can you tell me how the the collecting money from like Trucking routes worked in the mob cuz I used to see that all the time on The Sopranos I'm like hey no this is my route like they're like arguing about who gets to collect money from this Trucking route and a lot of it is like passed down through the generations can you go into detail about how that worked yeah there was one guy that I liked his name was Yu he was a big heavy set guy so one of that was one trucking company that we had so imagine it way one trucking company I went to to go get the regular pay it was around Christmas time he gives me $700 he I always give your father a little Christmas bonus and I was like okay and you know uh but what's that's about why why do they pay the mob why do they pay your father because they protect them from getting shaken down from somebody else I got you you know um so that is pure extortion that's like old school mob extortion because you got to remember but they but but the money that they're making it's really nothing to pay them they're not asking say they're making a I'll just throw a stupid num say they're making a million dollars a year they're only asking for not even a quarter of that they're not asking for $100,000 a year they're not making that much money out of it and trucks did get a lot especially the JFK you know leaveing JFK that was a mafia racket in itself was hijacking the trucks leing JFK so if you're uh if you're paying a guy from the geneves to stop the lucases from jacking your truck right worth you know Untold millions of goods you actually are providing them a service and the whole thing is there was one time when these guys came he had tattoos on his arms he was another wise guy from someplace else they came and they called my father and they called me back I'm saying it back in the back with a pistol W you know something John I I don't want to say something but but this is the first time I'm telling that story nobody knows this story but me I've never just told her so wow I just that's just blew my mind I just can't believe I'm remembering this because you brought it to my attention I'm standing in the back there with a gun they give me a gun and my father's there talking to the guy and I'm trying to listen a little bit because I always want to know how to talk to another wise guy or what was really said too because you know and I'm just ready to shoot because you know just in case this goes bad to talk and so the the big heavy set guy that owned the trunk and Company used to be called bway he was over there too and he was ready to shoot too actually believe it or not and my father told him what he had to tell him who he was with this is his he said I'm over here and that's it and then they left us alone and I didn't have to pull the trigger wow because you know like I said that was it yeah so but back in the day the the threats of violence From the Mob were real oh 100% so if you're a trucking guy and you you just said off I'm not paying you you you could end up in the river you could okay it all depends on how serious the uh you want that trucking company or how much it's really making or most of these guys don't want to hear no you know you're not GNA tell a guy no like in a way too you know they're scary you know yeah yeah they're big and scary yeah I've seen look like you get we talked about Greg scarper a little bit you you get a guy like Greg comes over to see you you're going to do what he says yeah so everybody paid yeah until until Giuliani in the 90s and then everybody started ratting or going to the going to the feds you know juliani too he's the type of dude where he he ruined the whole Feast you know look I get it that they were making money here and there and they got the the right to put the boots there but you know how good that food was the real Italians were making the I hate sauces and peppers I don't like sausages the saus of peppers at the as a s NOA Feast was so good the grease was dripping down the bread was good after he took it over it was not the same we used to call it the May Giuliani Feast I don't know if you're being literal or you're making a metaphor or both you kind of did both right there that was brilliant thank you he ended the feast but he did he ended the mafia Feast that was New York City exactly but uh so so why would like a union guy Union guys would go missing back then how would they get out of line because that was big money that the families were collecting well they just didn't cooperate with the Wise Guys anymore that's it I see um you know and I think even there was a tape that John got he was on unfortunately talking about a body one of a union guy yeah and um you know sometimes a union guy because it's almost like what happened with uh the guy that disappeared they never found him Jimmy haer Jimmy haer was a good guy but then he got too big for his own Bridges it's like anything else absolute power corrupts absolutely you know that if you get to be a certain level it gets to you a little bit now you think you don't need anybody and I think when those by the time Union heads of unions get that deep into the pockets of Wise Guys the wise guy probably doesn't see him as a civilian anymore he looks at him as a criminal just like him and he could get touched because listen most people are really down deep if you can get away without paying your taxes and that's a stupid little thing because first of all taxes in my opinion are illegal but you know that's another story but you know you cheat a little bit on your taxes is that the end of the world is that the worst thing you do but if you could save yourself a little bit but money so everybody has a little bit of criminality and it doesn't mean you got to be a psychopath or sociopath or anything like that you don't have to go to around you're not going to kill somebody because you cheat on your taxes but the mob will though but the mob will they and they kind of were sociopathic in a way some of them well there was Tommy karate from the banano family yeah Tommy PETA still doing time he was uh you know he used to get in a bathtub and cut you up while he was naked in a bathtub with you yeah that's that's wild yeah his own crew was afraid of him but your father how would what what category would you put your father in you know he was a murderer right it's a moral sin according to Catholicism right um you know the worst crime correct but how would you lump him in between like Criminal Just product of his environment and like psychopath on what scale my father was a Gemini uh June 7th was his uh birthday so he was a true Gemini I've seen my father laugh and have a ball and then I seen him snap in one second and it was bad um was he a true sociopath well there is a mental illness on then some of them my family they said I don't know uh if that's true uh but I think he is a product of his environment so am I sure to be honest with you and sometimes you don't know look some people can break out of it you got Ben Carson who had come from a long line of family um single black mom okay here's a guy who was the one of the first people who ever separated twins inside the womb right I mean so you can be stereotype you can be like that but it takes a lot to get out of where you are and you have to have you know like a good mother like he had and it takes a couple of generations it does you can't just do things overnight yeah you just can't um so your father's with the geneves correct you're becoming kind of a knock around guy yes that's what I call myself yeah uh man I becoming like a a half a wise guy as the longer I do this podcast just talk Like You Ed guys now yeah but now why are you suddenly starting to run with the bananos if your father's with the geneves you know so I think it was after my father was killed uh um supposedly they said he was killed I don't know that's what the FBI told me you see I'm not going to knock anybody who cooperates um because everybody has their own reasons now I'm not the kind of Dude to cooperate just because I get my handcuffs on me I'm not a punk but you they told me that my father was murdered by the Wise Guys my father was in hiding he was on the lamb he was actually in Honduras hang on so you the bananos comes after you cooperated yes all right so let's talk about what led up to your father's death and then we'll get into okay uh you and your cooperation okay so to give us the year where it all went down and the murder that caused him to go on the run so it was in the early uh it was in the 80s 89 because my mother passed away in 1988 uh July 7th so um my father was sort of different after that and but he had to kill a guy called his name was uh Vic Maturo he was a wise guy lived in Scarsdale New York a lot of money uh he was suspected of being a rat and so they got my my father got the orders to call him down he went down to Brooklyn and uh they had to sit down and sure enough that's when they gave my father the green light so what happened was him and another guy who I think is still alive that went with him I'm not going to say say his name uh because he is still alive I'm pretty sure um they found him my father and they were the last to be seen going to his house and then they found him the next day hanging in the garage they hung him yeah wow they wanted to make it look like a suicide because uh because this guy Vic Mur was not a slouch either I think four guys or three young guys because he was older man they tried to Rob him he fought them off so he's not like he wasn't like it was that easy but the guy my father brought with right yeah now he got that order uh the boss of the geneves was crazy that was the chin right yeah now even though your father's maid yes he's a soldier if he gets an order to go push a button he has to go no no problem yes okay has no choice okay and he's do you know why they picked him to go I think because uh Victor I think I think he trusted my father you know um listen you're always going to trust a guy that's you can get close to or you're able to pick him up and you you know you pretend you're his buddy so to speak you don't act cold to him it was a joke that what's his name used to make uh uh Richard prior on his one of his shows on the comedian shows he says he he had to go collect they didn't want to pay him for doing a show and he went in the back and it was all the Wise Guys there and he went out there and he said I gave my best black look you're going to pay me where's my money and they started laughing they go Hey look it's a hold up com and they laughing he's come here we're going to pay everybody com he tells him he come on rich and he grabs him and he says let me tell you a story about with this Teamster and they take this Teamster they take him out to drinks they take him out to eat then he's in the back of the limo he bends over because he spills his shrink he pops him with a pick and he goes what's the matter Richie you look nervous you want to go for a ride but you see those you you make them feel relaxed you make them comfortable you know you don't give them the mean look yeah but sometimes that's the trick if you're smart you know why is this guy being so nice to me today it's overly nice MH and that's when you know you could you could have a problem yeah wow so you could be in the mob everything's going good and then this guy that's normally cold is suddenly smiling in your face and now you got to be suspicious what a crazy psychological battle you have to play with yourself you know what I mean and with other people I was playing it every day listen in my life because I had to be the real thing whether I was in public or even by myself I always had to live the life of the man I was claiming to be I make one mistake take they're not stupid I make a slip up whatever and I was being tested all the time Dominic himself will tell you how he tested me uh calling me down Joe meet me in 15 minutes I said could I have 20 okay 20 minutes and he was testing me you know and uh there was times be honest with you John I I never thought I was coming back you thought you were going Y and I still went that's what I don't even understand because you remember and and like I said I go to the movies I'm not trying to but you remember Top Gun yeah you don't have time to think I had an agenda I wanted to find out because the FBI said that these guys killed my father my agenda was to find out and I was willing to go almost to the old lens to find out who killed them even at the risk of my own life and that's the truth and you know and I didn't like what I was doing anyways really so I didn't really care in one way about dying because I even said to Dominic if he said I would have did a joke I would have took you out if that was the casee and I would have wanted him I would have respected it coming from him somebody else I would have tried to fight back shoot back whatever but him because I cared about him You' be you'd make peace with it yeah you could take own mind yeah wow um the the boss of the geneves at the time who gave your father the order to go hit this guy take this guy Vic out yes who was that did you know this gentleman who was he I didn't know who he was probably some under boss I don't know who he was though and is that cuz the geneves are so secretive the chin never met with anybody really the chin was his name yeah well no the chin is was the B the yeah and they used to just you know go like that that was the orders or you know you yeah but uh whoever was his under link yeah that's who told my father okay and then they found him so your father goes with this other guy they they kill this guy Vic he was a rat I believe yep he was actually a rat so they got that one right um so you know a while something yeah uh they're not stupid as they say in Caro's way man the Italians they're going to sniff this one out very good at that I told you they're not stupid no so they kill this guy uh but then then your father gets creeped out right he thinks that he's marked well I'm gonna tell you how Okay goad there there is a there is a reason why the FBI actually came to my father's house they said that they intercepted a call they gave him his card they said hey we're from FBI and we have uh by law we have the right to inform you that there's a hit out on your life wow now why would that happen I have no idea because my when I came home that day my father said and he showed me the card put it on I said what thiss that he said they came to the house I said now I'm thinking my thing I'm thinking he's they're going to arrest him they giv him a chance to either come in or whatever he said they they said that we intercepted a phone call saying that we got to get rid of JB that was one of my father's nicknames so my fathers they said would you if you want to come in and talk to us naturally and how they tell you all a sudden now they're your friend they've been following you all this time trying to get dirt on you but now they like you you know they want to say your life here's a tip exactly you're welcome yeah so they says uh if you want to come in and talk to us so he looked up my father looked the car said no I'm okay thank you shut the door just that alone have an FBI agents if somebody would have saw it or something they would have said what happened yeah and my father would have had explain it and don't get me wrong they probably would have believed my father that he was not going to cooperate but now they have uh what who what's going on here now of course of course because they don't like loose ends like anything else you know it's the whole Jimmy Burke thing after Lanza Heist he started killing everybody because he's like hey we just we like the guy but we can't risk it yeah you know and so they they just started taking everybody out link to it but don't forget too Jimmy Burke was a little greedy too you he wanted all the money so you know he was he was a kill so do who do they who was that call that they the FBI intercepted obviously they had a wire tap on somebody was that the the under boss of the geneves I'm not sure who it was because we never found out um the FBI never told me when I started working for them how is that that they couldn't tell you at least reveal who wanted your father killed that's so crazy to me you see John this is this is some of the dilemas I had when um I wanted to find out about who killed my father because they just another floor in there they told me three men went under my last name Baron and to visit my father in Honduras I never knew this so I said you mean to tell me the the the video cameras are not working in the in the airport you can't see who they were like just go back for video footage you know the plane flight and everything who were they he said you didn't know who they were I didn't so now they tell me okay and he never took them back to his Villa he always used to meet them in the mall so I said okay uh now he took him back to the Village so they went to go arrest him they said that's when they found him dead on the floor so I said okay well who are they they never told me and then I said to myself later on after all these 18 years I worked with the FBI trying to find out who killed my father you mean to tell me not one rat one somebody who got arrested who wanted to talk nobody ever said anything about who hey we know who killed that guy Joe or we know what happened or nobody you guys never asked anybody yeah does that make sense to you suspicious it's very suspicious now it makes me think did the Wise Guys really did kill my father or not I don't know because don't forget Vinnie pudi who I think I showed you I think I sent you a picture of him um he he was a how can I say was at my trial he's like a psychological profile type of guy like a whatever he can he knew what would trigger me off or at least hoped it would and so when he told that right away the first thing you do you get angry you know what I'm saying um you get mad yeah did they ever find out did they ever get anybody on the murder of Vic this rat that your father helped killed so okay so that's remained cold yes so so somehow they got so maybe may this hit on him may have had nothing to do with the bosses talking about killing your father it could have been from something else right so you really have no idea Beyond just that hey we heard that they're trying to take JB out my father told me some things he's not going to tell me everything about his life you know he just wasn't going to do it okay so how long after that tip and the murder of of this rat did your father go on the Run uh it was let's see I'll try to be as accurate as I can be but it is a long time ago so figure it was about maybe a couple of months after the murder okay and then he came to me I had to go to the safety department a box I had to get him $70,000 which I did I gave him the cash and he says look I don't know when I'm going to be back he says I said but that why you even got to go he said well sometimes it's easy to put people's mind at ease if I'm not around so now why would he even think like that right do you think your dad was ratting no no no because why would he go you know what I'm saying he did time before and he told me this well this is the reason why I don't think he's riding one because I know my father two he said if they come to where I'm going there's going to be a shoot out of the OK Corral right that's exactly what he said his exact words right so that's why I knew that he would rather die before going back to jail and he didn't really have much of a long life because he died he was 54 years old and oh I'm sorry and he um he had a bad heart matter of fact he was trying to get back into the United States to get a triple bypass done okay so that was the whole thing there I mean and why H Honduras I mean you got Italians can bar barely pronounce it you could call it Honduras my aunt Doris yeah yeah my aunt Doris Honduras yeah yeah barosaurus my wife Honduras now why do you have any idea why he chose that or had did he have connections there it was another Wise Guy staying there who was also on the run I think so yeah wow I don't know who he was but that's who he got the connection with and then my father actually had to pay the the officials because one thing the FBI said was they said look we tried to arrest them one time before but the officials alerted him that we were coming down and he went from one Villa to another and I know that's true because I went to go call him on the number he gave me I us have go the phone boots with bag of quarters and um it's kind of funny but that was true but I didn't tell them that yeah they didn't know that I knew that what they were saying was right right was he active down there like was he still giving orders and getting money no no he he lost all his control I wish I would have showed you a picture of what he looked like he was sick ah he was sick he was smoking a lot of cigarettes supposedly and he was sick and that's what makes me think like what really happened was it really the Wise Guys that killed him did he really die of natural causes because they did an autopsy on him down there now they had a a vshape and in his chest so I went to my Uncle Pat he's really my cousin but he's but I call him Uncle out of respect because he's obviously he older than me so I went there and he said uh I say what happened Uncle Pat do you know anything see that that's a man I could have asked the direct question to yeah U and he was supposed to be straightened out a long time ago too and he said to me he said they did that to hide the stab wounds okay hang on cuz I want to I want to make sure people get this so not long after your father went on the run in in Honduras correct he was killed he was found dead yes how how long after he left New York did that happen at least a year easily a year at least a year because I had gotten arrested uh in 91 I believe it was okay so he was going at in 90 so it was at least about a year before you got pinched yes okay so they found him stabbed well this this is the part that we'll never know this is the this is the mystery they found him dead right but that was the hondur officials that found them dead right which you can't trust I can't trust then they said they did an autopsy the FBI told me that they wanted to do another autopsy because they didn't trust them either so when I was in prison and they called me they actually I didn't know I was going to see the FBI actually Vic vict uh Vic Maturo Vic Vic um from the the boss of the Luke hay crime uh told me that uh they were going to see me I don't know how he knew he knew that they were going to interview me he actually told me what to say Vic and I were pretty close then too he was a good guy Vic but he was a stone cold killer too he had so I don't know how many bodies he got he said listen you tell them you sit there you listen you be quiet he says and at the end you tell them listen I love to help you but I'm not even in a position to help myself that's the kind of man he is wow and he's still doing his time wow he's got I don't know how many lives wow yeah he could die and come back yeah exactly one of a few so they they told you you go get summoned by the the FBI and and what did they tell you in that meeting so I go into there the marshals bring me to the hallway I go there and they go in there and I see the I see Vinnie there I see one of the other guys that was arrested me on when I got when I got pinched I see the uh Benjamin Rosenberg who was the a USA at the time and my attorney and I was like what's going on so I said can I have a minute with my attorney so I said said Ben what happened you know I said I'm not you know uh he said Joe they called me last night told me you got to be here this morning so I says okay what am I supposed to do I was paying him money back then I was paying like 60,000 I gave him and so he said look you got nothing to do listen what they got to say so I did well when they came in he called him back in and he they started talking to me Hey Joe you know this life what do you think you know all the bull like kind of talk a little bit and then all a sudden they said we want to show you something I says okay so they put the handcuffs from my back to the front it's okay now there's a stack of photos like this of my father the cemetery digging him up and him on a slab that was the first time I saw him in almost two years or better on a slab so uh he had to cut like this a V and then going down to here but they didn't do the autopsy little did I know that my uncle was there my father's oldest brother and he said I don't want you to do the autopsy on him they did give him permission to dig him up yeah but they wanted to see if it was my father so I saw them they had a picture of my father from one of his mug shots they put it close to his face but my father had Decay already on his face so and he had three stab wounds right just a just a v-neck like this and then a long thing so we don't know they said that was the autopsy that they did in Honduras and then that's what my Uncle Pat told me that was to cover up the stab wounds to I don't know if that's true or not now now what did Honduras say what are the people down there say the cause of death was as much as I try to get in touch with them I never got an answer I do have the death certificate from them they said it was some sort of a drug overdose okay so it it quite possibly could have been or it could have been he could have uh you know developed some kind of leukemia from being a smoker that developed really fast could have died of a heart attack right could have had a heart attack cuz he had a bad ticker and it sounds like I mean cuz what you're describing is how they would cut you open for an autop for an autopsy right so you know did you what what led you to believe beyond that that that was actually a cover up for a mob hit because I I didn't it was hard to trust any of them it's hard to trust the Wise Guys it's try hard to trust the FBI but just hearing that my father was dead I remember I was on the phone I was in Otisville New York I was standing by the phone I got the phone call called to my grandmother and then she told me he died I didn't know it that's how I found out um there was a guy a skipper Danny Tio from Staten Island was there and and he grabbed my shoulder and he knew said he died but I didn't know how priest called me in they said you going to be okay because usually they want to trow you in the Box think you're going to flip out but it was when I went there and I was like they seemed so they knew a few things the FBI that they shouldn't have known and that's how like with the phone call when I told you when he moved and that he knew they were paying the officials so I said they knew something my father was a what they call a fixer too my father knew a lot had a lot of political collection connections as well as uh Wise Guy connections really yes he was able judges um police mhm and so my father in some degree not all of it I'm not saying he was some but he had a uh he was to some degree a risk of you know I guess because his political connections and the things he could fix he mean got me out of trouble almost all the time right I think maybe the Wise Guys could be worried about that especially since that note that they said they intercepted a phone call they got to get rid of JB see so I put all this together in my mind maybe they right cuz I didn't cooperate right then and there mhm I says I'll talk to these later you know I'll talk to my attorney that but it seems kind of far-fetched to think that the mob went down all the way down there stabbed him and the FEDS didn't know anything about it and nobody on the street in New York knew anything about it I mean you know you're right John my as I asked another Wise Guy Somebody I could talk to that was close to my father I won't say his name either I don't want to get him in trouble and he said the same thing to me why would we go all the way down there to get him but then Patty boy feletti who was actually pety Fat's brother one I was telling you about he's he's a big Bo divor in the in the uh geneves family now too matter of fact that my second B he sent me a message he said say hello to Joe for me because now he knew I was cooperating that means say to Joe means you know you but anyway I was going to go on a date with this girl this girl went to his house because she was good friends with his wife so she said do you know this guy Joe Baron and he says uh well is he this his father Joe Baron and so she said yeah he says to her what a shame what happened to his father what they did to his father now this is a big shot he was a you know I think he's a captain now or whatever he is or maybe even bigger than a captain why would he say something like that okay so now you see all these things now you got the paranoia and the the you just don't know but you want to know something John somebody knows who I don't know but I'm probably never gonna know but that's a big decision to then decide to give your life to the FBI for you know the next two decades correct based off of something that you aren't even for sure happened mhm is there a regret there now do you say man I should have had I should have maybe F got more information before I decided to to throw it all away when I was in prison I was alone more or less I was uh the Wise Guys don't come and help you they don't really talk to you except for like you know viam muso and stuff like that they talk to you but you know you're a lowlevel guy to these guys really still you know what I mean and uh I I didn't know how to go about like I don't have really that great resources I'm not the smartest hack in the book do I have a few skills here and there there yeah but I had I felt like at that time I had no other choice but to to that was the only way I could find out about who really killed my father because I figured now I got the FBI actually working with me to find out who killed my dad because when I went to go sign the papers that I'm going to cooperate with them that's what I told them I wanted to do I says listen I want to find out you think we're going to find out who killed my father he says eventually yes and were you the then going to try to go kill that person if if they were still alive was that like the plan deep down or was that like closure it was the back of my mind I'll say that all right or you or you help convict them whatever it is it's one of the three they either get killed go to prison when somebody else kills them when you do certain things in life at certain areas in your life certain times in your life what's the first thing you say Well it seemed like a good idea at the time so I would have waited to see what would have happened at that time and that was it and then I would make that decision then and what kind of so you weren't you didn't decide to cooperate to get out of the bid you were facing right because you were looking at it only a couple of years they they they said it they I was looking at 10 years what was the charge by the way it was uh extortion and gun possession okay what were the details involving that the guns had the serial numbers filed off that's a federal crime um who are you shaking down I was robbing drug dealers at one time for a while until my friend got shot robbing him by his he went by himself he went got shot in the back wow this is serious business this is what you were doing yeah so what was the extortion part uh the extortion part was this guy that he owed me money uh like 30 grand and I was trying to shake him down for where's my money we put a telephone cord around his neck my friend was choking with him my other friend put the gun to his head and that kind of thing and then I actually seen him at the top of thomasy Bible Funeral Home in the Bronx under the L on Washington Square it's a it's a it's an old neighborhood it's not even there anymore and um I seen him driving and he was like six four 500 pounds big dude not in shape big dude so the girl I was with I says pull over so I put my sap gloves on I got out I says hey Eddie I says Where's My Money bing boom bom I start I knocked them to the ground and I had the recording of it but I got erased because I tried to clear up the rain that was it was raining and the FBI was right there because he was wearing a wire he was supposed to be meeting his own brother one of my codefendants Dennis he was going to wear wire on his own brother wow yep so that's how you got roped in yes I see and I left an answering machine message because I was stupid and I says listen uh I tried to call you I try to get in touch you if I don't get my money by tomorrow you are both going to get it that's exactly what I said okay so you're facing some time yeah uh but not life there's no there's no murders there's no you know Big Time drug dealing the legal aid lady was trying to get me oh Susan Brody nice nice she says I I she says Joe I'm going to see if I can get him down to three years for you I said okay I'll take the three years no problem so I wasn't scared of doing that three years I was already in for about almost a year stand on your head doing that so this is really about revenge for your father that's all it was okay got it now we transition into part two okay when you signed over from what we understand so we know just based off talking to people have cooperated that the feds don't give you like a firm outdate when you decide to cooperate they don't say hey you're going to do 10 years for us and then on November 25th 1999 you're out well they just use you to what they think they get enough out of you that's usually what it is it's like uh and I gave I fed him some information about what was going on in the prison uh uh oh I gave them some information about what was going on in the prison and stuff like that uh okay so uh cuz we also wanted to know about who killed Ralphie Kapolei he was the captain so I was giving them information about what was going on in prison some of the things uh uh like there was a I talked about it on U on Dominic's podcast on the you know uh was it it was uh about Eddie kavanov he Comm committed a double homicide and there was a lot of law enforcement was involved with that there was the DEA FBI M marinic state troopers because right where it was done it was in the midst of everything so did did they tell you this is what did they give you a Target or did they just say give us everything that you can dig up yeah sometimes they'll ask you do you know so and so or you know they'll say uh you know did you never know what happened to you know so I say yeah I know what happened to Ralphie I think I know who killed and I told them that uh and all those kind of things so uh I didn't really try to offer more information that I could think of but I pretty much answered a lot of their questions they had a lot of questions okay so did you continue with that bid then did you actually go up state after you had already been flipped yeah they gave me I actually wind up getting four years okay okay which I should have to be honest with you with the information I gave them okay I should have walked out they should have said time sered it was it was a little extortion guns not the end of the world but but it provides you a really good cover now too you know what I mean because now you're going to do a full bid it looks like you didn't you didn't take any kind of deal you didn't flip um how many people were you actually turning guys in in prison that you met and that confessed to Crime uh how did that go yeah well when I like I like I said on on Mafia round table with Dominic we talked about it with Eddie kavanov Eddie kavanov I told him the FBI what happened with him and he wound up flipping and he I think he brought a lot of guys down too because he was uh don't forget he was facing the uh death penalty because any drug related homicide is automatic death penalty did they give uh so you ratted you ratted on him you gave up him and then they arrested him rearrested him yeah and then he flipped on a bunch of other people correct were you in the feds or were you in the state I was in well actually I was in the feds interstate I did a bullet up in uh valala New York it was for some reason it was the feds needed more room so it was the state prison I was in yeah so it was good because we were able to get packages in from the street okay well that was good I was getting the real macaroni my friend happened to get a bag that was H medically sealed the the the machine to make it and then we put a sticker on it like it was money that was bought from a store but it was homemade so it was pretty cool and my all the guys I see I shared it with they were like I said my grandma made it he says how old is she I want to marry it did anybody have any inkling while you were in prison about what you were doing not one person did you have to or did you give information on anybody else uh from prison no not really uh you know how it is everybody in prison is always confessing they say never talk but everybody talks about crimes that they weren't pinched on too you know yeah uh one guy he was supposed to escape the prison he paid the guard 20 25,000 that didn't work out for him did you give him up for me yeah okay another guy that was he he was bringing us a lot of food from the street he was bringing a lot of steroids in for the guys and stuff like that but it seems like it goes against your interests it does it's just that I heard it and you know I didn't give him up like all the other real people that I knew right away was like just you know I was trying to get my you know trying to do what they asked me to do would the handlers your FBI handlers come visit you only one Handler okay no who two detectives came to see me once and my Handler flipped out on them who was your Handler Vincent bizi okay he actually works for the Newberg police now department as well okay so this is a this is a key player in your story though Vincent 18 years I worked with him having he retired at I think at 20 years or something like that and all all his time spent with me okay do you like him you guys must become friends he was Italian like me we uh we were come from similar backgrounds obviously Italians I mean uh I he got sort of close to me we' meet in different locations he was kind of uh uh told me about his daughters told me about his wife cheating on him but he got custody of it what a surprise because he's the FBI agent naturally they're GNA always go with those guys you know his father also worked in some kind of uh something in a prison too I think he was a psychologist or something like that so you didn't feel bad uh giving up a guy who's just trying to escape I didn't I didn't really know him that good I don't I didn't care about him okay yeah I mean I didn't I mean I knew him enough to talk to him he was actually helped me out in a fight that was in the prison because he was locked up there was a in the prison there was in the valal is was a pod there was 15 cells on this side 15 cells on the other side this one guy Salazar from Columbia ratted me out that I had two mattresses under there and so I told the CE that I knew from the street and I said to him listen can I know his name I I don't I want to heard his name but he said to me he says uh uh say he ratted me he says Joe I'll let him out he's going to take a shower I'll let you out I don't have to make another round for 20 minutes do what you got to do so naturally he let us out Salazar came to my Salazar came to my uh cell boom I cracked him he went flying out of the cell he picked up the mop bucket that was there tried to hit me with it I kicked him in the gut hit him again he went down but then he was on his hands and knees and I was about to jump up and do one of my kicks that I like to do and he's uh his there was it was an old prison this was the older one it had those old metal radiators and if I would have kicked him where I was going to kick him it would probably would have cracked his head maybe would have killed him so one of the other Spanish guys said to this guy who was Puerto Rican said he's gonna kill him he's gonna kill him so then he said yo that's enough let him go and I did yeah good but did part of you feel emboldened now that you are an FBI asset to like I Can Break The Rules as long as I don't kill anybody I can they catch me with drugs or a weapon like it's going to get tossed when they find out who I'm with I thought about that I had some sort of CB launch like I didn't think like you know I mean come on I'm doing things you know I Carri the gun all the time matter of fact I had a secret compartment in my in my SUVs used to cost me a lot of money ER you know the council the middle council and the okay so I had to press three buttons simultaneously and then the back would open up and it would be a drawer and that's why keep my gun and it was actually good if you want to keep a wallet in there nobody can find it like in the glove box cuz nobody can find it cuz it looks like it's part of the council where the heated seats are where you can plug your phone in all that bu but uh did anyone ever find that gun did the cops ever find it nope but you weren't worried though if a you know if a regular bee cop found you with a hot pistol you I figured they would come to help me get me out yeah right so the feds would just come spring you out that's what I thought wow but they weren't like that they they were what do you mean they weren't like that hold on Joe this doesn't make sense dude you you got permission from them to go kill somebody so what do you mean they weren't like that it's kind of weird man it's it's uh well when I got pitched I'll show you how weird is here was I got picked up on my second bid from another informant who was wanted to inform on me whose record with the with the uh police department sucked they always caught him lying they caught him everything now I sent you everybody reports on me that how I was Exemplar Mar right I mean they praised me right uh so I thought that you know I I I I was talking to this guy like I talk to anybody in the street to keep my street cred up even though he was he was a black dude he was a thug type of guy but it didn't matter you always want to go any way you can he had links to one time drugs credit cards you know all this kind of so it was always good to make it look like he was one of my guys I could just call the smack somebody around or something you know make it look good uh okay still didn't I still don't get it me okay no because I don't understand it either yeah they're just inconsistent you know what that makes sense the law is inconsistent they say don't do this but you can do this and they don't add up well you saw the paper I sent you yeah did you see all the stuff that I was able to do I want to go through it though oh we can go through it but do you know what he said on Stan my Handler on my second on my trial uh the murder trial the uh the H murder fire trial my attorney asked him what was he allowed to do what would you he said if I would have had more room on the paper I would have put more wow because so you were good informant you didn't but how am I supposed to be the real thing if I can't be the real thing you you're you're asking me to go out there like with okay fight that Lion in there okay where's my tools you're not getting any spear you're not getting any Shield you're not getting a net right it doesn't make any sense but I still did good for them I I identified over a thousand members of organized crime members they never even even knew about over the years did um when you you got out you you do your bid you do your four years you come home what year is it now I got home in uh January 20th 1995 I'll never forget okay so and this is when you start to Cozy up with the bananas yes you know everybody knows your father's gone you are now officially a criminal you know you've done your bid yep I started hanging out with a guy called uh uh his last name was defo uh Bobby defo and so we used to go down to Brooklyn a few times a week we used to go to where there was a guy Anthony Sparrow he was a I think he was a captain at one time maybe even higher and uh we used to go to Benson Hurst in Brooklyn uh and so I used to go down there and he was away in prison at the time and I used to hang around with a guy one of his guys was Murray actually a Jewish guy was doing everything for him he used to dress like like an Italian guinea and everything was cool he he passed away now Murray too some years back but Bobby brought me around there but then Bobby round up being a problem with the nose candy and I was giving him money and I thought you know because I was going to make money I wound up losing like six grand to this kid and then I couldn't find them anymore cuz I didn't care did the feds give you money to get started when you came home no they only reimbursed me most of the time when I spent money that was it I never did it any for any kind of money okay um but if I told him I spent this much money doing this for them they would give okay they give me that money or maybe even a little bit more cash yep wow did they ever end up putting you on like a payroll or did they just say go out and earn and but you feed us information they knew I was loone shock and they didn't say anything about it um they also uh they they I didn't realize that I was on a payroll I was allowed up to $100,000 a year but I only found out out after my second pinch and I think I sent you that paperwork hang on so $100,000 is what is the salary of a CI it could be that it could even be more they paid one guy from the Hell's Angels a million dollars for doing onee work of undercover who actually regrets it now but that's that's more than a real non-criminal actual federal agent could make in a career you see it's better to be it's better to be a rat as a criminal can I ask you a question John let me just ask you this do you think they care about that money whose is it it ain't their no it's the good it's taxpayers taxpayer money it's like if you said to me Joe here's a credit card what's the limit No Limit do you think I'm gonna do I'm just gonna go buy a lunch I'm gonna get a car I'm gonna get this I'm gonna get all the good stuff wow it's ridiculous they don't care that's why $100,000 but you see I was so low because this guy wanted to make himself look good plus I never asked for any money they put a guy I forget the guy's name John Jr was hanging around with some guy I think his name was Pete um he was an accountant he was they were giving him $2,500 a week on top of what he was earning as an accountant for yeah for like one or two came out in court wow I don't notice I don't you know came out in court just to get information on John Jr wow yeah so they they could you would just and they you could basically charge up to 100 a year and they would reimburse you that's how they made the payments if I knew that that was $100,000 a year then I would have been able to pay my rent without struggling to do everything I had to do because 100,000 I I I was making doing my own scams which some things I won't I can't say what I was doing but why not I just don't want to get in trouble who the freak knows what they're going to watch or say what I'm was doing but so on that thing alone I was making probably 50 Grand a year on that alone and then the other thing probably maybe 75 to $80,000 a year on my own and then I uh then I was on another salary making a th000 a week 1,500 a month for who uh that was from a girl that was I was help help out with running the business that she was owning I was dating this girl she owned the few din yeah I see so you were all right so you're doing pretty well um and you're just you're just kind of independent out there making money with your your lone shark of business a couple of scams um and then you know you're starting to work your way into the cruise but I had to be careful too because you see I knew for sooner or later they were going to want want a guy like me around they're going to want me to do the the work they're going to want me to do all this stuff so who the feds or the mob actually both yeah right but but I I I didn't really want that life I still was just wanted to find out who killed my father I figured if somebody would like me enough they'd say Hey you know we knew you for your father and I what a shame you know what happened say we you know sometimes one guy might have said really if anything really happened because they would have figured I was close enough I was with this guy Jerry Chile on my second bid I don't know I think I sent you a picture of him Jerry Chile and me got along like this I never met him in the street now he's a captain and then we were around another guy they call him Nicki the mouth Nicki cigar Nicki santor is his real name he's a I think he's an but he was around with all that Donnie Brasco was going around too and uh I just didn't like him so Jerry's the type of dude now he's a captain he's he's he passed away now so I could talk about him he uh Nikki was having a problem with the telephone so we were watching TV Jerry and I and he we were watching it because it's up on high so Jerry goes he touches man what's up Jerry he says look and and I look over there and I see the big black dude giving him a hard time and everything I says what do you what do you want to do he says let him get beat up a little bit then we'll go in because that's the way Jerry was he's he was a he was the type of guy that he was a great Wise Guy hard hard criminal did probably more than half his life in prison standup guy to the max he actually was with the Gus farra I don't know if you ever heard that with gusr was actually I think dating his daughter and he actually killed an undercover uh agent like dea or something like that and then they want to had wind up killing him because they were bringing too much heat right he was a good kid that guy I guess you know how did you get into the but eventually you do start making your way into the crew into the bananos because because of Murray and I'm hanging around with Bobby and they actually liked me better than Bobby okay so um do you remember who brings you in as an associate you know just a guy who's hanging around is that that's a maid guy bringing you in right that was Dominic then and that was Dominic who we've had on this show Dominic Cal now Dom had no idea what you were doing nobody knew anything no did you ever end up giving information on Dom some information yes wow what was that information uh like um well before I started giving him information there was a guy Willie Marshall who uh ratted on some people in the gambino crime family and supposedly Peter Gotti John Gotti's brother had a million dollar contract on his head they said you don't even have to bring the body you just have to give the head so you chop off the head and you get a million so I told Dominic about that too and so Dominic said you you know I kind of knew where he was but I didn't do it because I knew where he was and I knew we were going to kill him then so I didn't want I didn't want to do it for the million dollars cuz I knew we were going to do it but domic said to me never take less than 100,000 if anybody asks you for to do a hit so then that's when I knew me and Dominic started getting close I I I went picked him up out of the prison when he he got his wife had him arrested on stupid that you can't even believe but uh so what information did you end up giving on Dominic I basically told him who that he was a soldier in the bonano family that he did get bumped up to a captain uh that you know know things little things like that did you ever implicate him though in anything serious no they did ask me about the uh Frank santour murder because they had heard from other sources that he was in on it I said that's the word in the street but Dominic never said to me ever that he killed him right well you never would I never would never ask him anyway and did you get close enough to him where you realized oh I don't want to give I don't want to put this guy away or were you willing to put anybody away no Dominic and I got so close that there was some things like when he had the sports going on he actually he actually borrowed 20,000 for me that I did tell the feds because I wanted to get my freaking 20,000 back in case he didn't but I think that was a test that he was giving me I don't even know that the FBI agent said it's a good thing you had the 20,000 laying around to give him he says Joe because it would have took about two three weeks just to get the thing approved right I saids and this is how you send me out here but I did give him the money and um you know and then of course there was some jobs that I went on with Dominic that I never told him about because uh what kind of jobs there was one where there was a guy hippie that he uh he robbed him a long time ago and then hippie was being an to him in the street uh I think they bumped each other in this place in a pizza Pao once and I think Dominic had all the dude to hold back and then he went and told Vinnie uh Vinnie gorgeous about it and then Vinnie said do what you need to do man you know and that was it so then that was it he got the okay and then that was it because Dom what do you mean that's it he went and killed him no no yeah you can do whatever we want to now so because you know he's he told D just be him be the guy who you are you be a man right so you went and touched him up basically we went to go get him at this place because he had talk bad about Dominic saying all kinds of stuff that he got a baseball bat shoved up his ass and all of this and that's not even true Dominic just took a bad beat and the three guys jumped him up there and you know and they left him for Dead uh in prison no in the street oh wow and uh and Dominic was fighting all of me he's not afraid to fight no he's a G oh yeah oh no no no he's yeah he he don't need somebody to come with him you know what I mean so at what point at what point do you say okay I need to I need to get out of this like how many years go on before it just became like I don't know tiresome when I was hanging around with Dominic I got tired of it all yeah because this there's a part of me that it's a normal lifestyle for me it might not be for you might not be for somebody else but this was normal for me and at the same time I'm giving information like I didn't know if Dominic was going to be as close as me as we got I didn't think that but Dominic had a way about him where you wanted to do something with him you had a you knew he was I like real people if if this makes it simpler I like somebody like I like somebody says if they're gonna do something they're gonna do it could doesn't have to be that night but I know they're going to do it I like somebody who doesn't need anybody uh you know it's been plenty of times I had to go see people by myself and how to handle my own business too and I'm not even as tough as Dominic but I will not let nobody just push me around whenn or lose you that's the way I have to go but he's somebody you I gravitated too easily because there was a lot of things I liked about him he was real okay but what I want to know about the informing you're working for the FBI you're doing a great job talking around my my questions so I need you to I want Zone in here because people are going to be picking up picking this up I didn't tell who did you how many people did you implicate that ended up going to prison do you have those stats I don't know because they never told me who they arrested and you never testified in court against anyone not one person and I never wore a wire wow never had to the only time I wore a wire was when I got arrested on my second bid against my codefendant which I was happily to do because I knew knew my codefendant and I I knew he wasn't going to say anything about anything because he didn't know anything I was bringing up something that was already dead so when I was trying to implicate him on the tape it was perfect because he was like almost like what are you talking about so I didn't care but I never wore a wire wow so you you were like a different level there's different levels to informance right yes like I know that Anthony Rian who we've had on here he actually took the stand and pointed at a boss and said yes he was involved in a murder uh you know there's different you know and then this other guy wears a wire you were like one of these guys where it was almost like just information gathering yes I was more like a kind of a spy yeah but not really I I there was nothing enough that I could give enough evidence for somebody to go away like when I had gotten wind of the uh the hit on the judge and the a USA okay I brought that to their attention right okay but I didn't know well I did know who was going to do it too okay so tell us about this because Dom actually got the call to do this hit this is a crazy story tell us exactly reiterate this for us what happened with that hit or that threat of a hit right well Dominic didn't tell me that he had got hit Dominic never told me that okay yeah I had gotten the information from somebody close to Dominic and so I knew who was going to do it what happened to guy the guy who was actually going to do it his own cousin ratted him out yes okay so give us who gave the order to actually kill a federal prosecutor and a federal judge which is the craziest thing I've ever heard the mob considering doing well the reason why they don't want to do that because it brings more heat but obviously but who but the guy who gave that order they said that Vinnie gave the order and it came from supposedly supposedly was Joe and Vinnie gave the order to give the hit I don't really know and Joe was the boss of the bananos yes okay but he was already locked up right and he was ratting he set up Vinnie so now I'm not sure if Vinnie gave Dominic that order direct I wasn't there for that I wasn't privy to that think about the think about that chess game yep that Joe is playing yeah so he's he let the he put that hit out yep and then let the feds know hey there's a hit out yep so look at me get me off MH so he put something in motion just to be able to rat to save his skip well Joe was kind of dirty himself he hated rats he said nobody's supposed to rat and it was also another thing where I thought it could be mistaken but there was a thing that Joe Ms was going to actually start having funds for people who went away so that it would help them do the bid better and help them not to that's what I heard I don't I can't believe the mob didn't do that earlier that's what the Hell's Angels do and that's why that people their guys don't rat usually I was in prison on my first bed with a guy named Lewis Mena Lewis Mena was with Tommy karate were robbing drug dealers too okay okay and they were making tons of money so when Louie gets arrested I was in the cell with him we're in Otisville together everybody Frankie Smith who later on became a a rat too and a lot of other guys they were all threatening this guy so I walked with him from the the wood shop and I was with him now all these guys were lined up they were going to kill him right there and I was with him and because I was with him they didn't do it not because they were afraid of him but because I guess maybe I was another witness I'm not going to say they were scared okay but you see they're threatening the guy and Danny Tio said to me skip said yo they're threatening this guy he's trying to do the right thing why don't you bring him close to you say are you going to be okay do this look you sign up for something you sign up for something you know you're not supposed to ride this is your job but why do you shun the guy and act like he's nobody anymore look what they did to the Mob exactly they had no reason Dominic would have done his time there's so many no doubt there's so many guys who they just if they didn't just push him into a corner would have done the time and stood tall but Dominic had legitimate businesses that he still could have been earning money from if if the right guy was in place Dominic still could have earned money for his family and he would have sat there still doing his time and you would have never sent him on the podcast totally I I can guarantee you that myself I would take I would take the Blood Oath on that right now I'm glad they all ratted so we could have this podcast I gota be grateful for that I mean yeah I'm sure but you know because I know Dominic so hang on so Joe minina gives the order to have this prosecutor this you United States Assistant Attorney killed and the judge balls and then he tells on Vinnie Vinnie who's the person he gave the order to and Dominic was supposed to be part of that hit yes and Dominic was like yeah I'm ready oh yeah which is wild the other guy that was going to be with him was ready too yeah because he was going to run away to Italy when he was after it was done oh so there was a hitter from Italy they brought over as well no he just was going to run away okay he was just going to run away he was a tough guy too now how did you find out that was going to go down I can tell you now because the guy I don't even know if I told Dominic this but it was his cousin who told me Dominic's cousin who told you wow and then you went right to your Handler yeah okay because uh you know I knew it was um I didn't know that actually Dominic was going to do it it was the other guy who I thought was going to do it and so okay that's who I told I didn't say that Dominic was going to do it I says the other guy was going to do it and what did they do after you gave him that information did they they arrested the other guy okay they AR well because they saw his cousin and his cousin was test was cooperating what them I never knew okay did they actually end up Prosecuting that conspiracy I don't know I really don't I don't really don't know wow I really don't know wow that's wild so you may have prevented a hit maybe that was just I don't know I kind of doubt it would have gone down because did the mob have that kind of power they have that kind of huspa yeah this guy uh the guy that was going to do it used to ride a motorcycle and I don't know if they were going to do it in a restaurant or if they were going to do it just outside the courtroom uh but these listen judge Gus when he thought the it was going to happen to him because I actually wrote him a letter I said I'm actually the guy who was directly involved with saving your life prick yeah exactly uh but uh he actually gave the letter to my judge because too they must have talked but this guy said I'm not afraid you know everybody says they're not afraid like you can go in the car you don't think you're gonna get into a major accident you drive yeah but don't underestimate yourself you me or anybody and even people can go after me Dominic or anybody else too but you're going to have a lot more hard a time going after a guy like Dominic than you would the judge because the judge ain't got no bodyguards but he ain't willing to do what dominic would do if you try to go after him yeah right right that's it wow so did that earn you any kind of Leverage with the FBI did that give you more points more salary moreway you that's an excellent question John I'm so glad you brought that up you want to know why cuz on my second bid and I told the FBI agent I said hey I saved the judge's life not see there's other people who said they gave information I saved the judge's life no no no no no I knew when it was going down I knew the guy that was going to do it I said I saved the judge's life and the and the assistant us attorney that doesn't mean nothing to you guys that you arrested me on this stupid charge you know what he went like this to me Michael Gator was his name he went like this just a face like that they didn't even give a about their own the FBI is only concerned with the end justifies the means they don't care how you get it they they did they they they tell your girlfriend your wife you got a girlfriend on the side they'll show them pictures they write letters they do everything to screw you to try to so you have no other resource to but try to maybe go with them right because when you let's face it you go to jail most of the time you're alone yeah that's just the way it is when uh so tell us about your second pinch so as your eating as the years go on a lot 18 years this was going on uh you're giving them info but you are a mob guy like you're you're I'm an associate yeah yeah but you're you're in the life you're a criminal there's that you're you're just happen to be feeding information to the feds yes um tell us about your second pinch how did that go down that went down because the guy uh this this guy Mike that I was hanging around with he tried to I I tell he was trying to get me on recordings but I didn't think he was doing because I didn't do anything wrong so I figured I can say anything I want because that's what I was allowed to do plus everything that he ever did with me the only thing he did he went into a house to go rob the house uh that was supposed to be $80,000 in a freezer I told him it's not there no more don't go but the other guy that was involved with it told him still go and he did it was all over the news they duct taped the people and everything like that was in E Chester New York he actually testified on the stand for me for them as their witness but he said said Joe told me not to do it I said I can't believe he just told the truth I couldn't believe it he told the truth he told the truth about a lot of things up there with me I don't get it what's what happened so they used yeah they you're saying the crime that they charged you with they wanted to get me on home invasion okay so were you committing home invasions at this time no what was your what were you doing I was almost a millionaire at this time I owned a million dollar home I had a half a million dollars in the bank wow I had about over $100,000 was worth of jewelry I had a brand new Escalade PID for prepaid for two years and still making them I was making money every week right and so you had from all these different businesses so you had the gambling the loan sharing yeah the gambling stopped I just had the loan sharing but I was really more legit now too I didn't even have to do I wouldn't loan any more money unless you put money up front most people don't can't do that now what other businesses did you have that's it I I was happy with the money I had I had the money in the bank and I was making about 4,000 a month doing nothing nothing just sitting on uh collecting interests or sitting sitting on a as like a on a company like I was I was going to invest my money but also I was supposed to be getting a job like I told you in the sanitation department so that was that was I was going to get out of life walk away and that was it because I still was an associate I wasn't strained out and and you you were kind of given up on trying to find out who killed your dad I did that and also like I said to you before like I I was tired of it Dominic had gone away in 2005 I think it was and um so so after he was gone I hung around with Louis electric a little bit who was another captain from Queens and he I hung around with him a little bit but there was nothing really going on with him he got a few construction things going on or whatever actually Dominic promoted it to a captain because Mikey Mike knows he what a jerk that dude was okay so uh so the pain from losing your father and like the Revenge that you need to seek you feel like that's subsiding you're just you're kind of like letting it go I started thinking that this was his life and maybe it wasn't meant to be that I've ever found out there might be a reason for it I don't know there might be a reason for it yeah um that's valid yeah so to me I started walking away and that's the reason why I started looking at that legitimate job I was I was leaving the girl who was supporting me and taking care of me I was leaving the girl Joanne okay that own the diners we had broken up but still the house the half a million dollar the million dollar house that we own was still half mine we're going to sell it and we were going to split the money I was going to go my way she was going to go her way we had a nice relationship as far as to go with that plus she was hanging around with another guy called buddy Israel Torres a guy who was around the py from uh Rialto in man in in the Bronx on arur Avenue and I said go you could still stick to that kind of life I don't care yeah so I could have walked away really CU I didn't owe anybody anything and yeah you have no time hanging over your head so the feds don't own you right this is a very unique informant situation because usually the people that are informing are stuck they got huge sentences hanging over their heads for Major Crimes and it's like the feds got you by the balls well this you kind of volunteered it almost so it's like you could just walk away and and this is the mistake I did make when Vinnie retired he called me up he says Joe he says he did everything he had to do that day he says you're the last person I'm going to go see let's go grab a couple slices and a beer I want you to be the last guy before I retire now he had introduced me to another guy uh Mike tretta was another agent that I I helped I guess I gave information because he want to know certain things about whatever I forget what it was and so he says you don't have no problems working with him even after Vinnie retired what I should have said was you know something Vinnie you're retiring how about I retire too but I didn't know if I could or not really in a certain way but I says you know because I figured I didn't have to give them any more information if I didn't like if I wanted to walk away like with get the job I would have been like listen I'm working now yeah I could have just told them like that they would have let me go there's nothing to do so it was only the second bid that I got pinched on that they wanted to say you got this murder For Hire over your head that was going to be like you got to do what we say and that's it right and they did everything wrong they told me I was missing for four days before okay hang on so walk us through yes why you should have got out then for sure uh and the mob would have let you go too you weren't you weren't made you could have just said hey I'm I'm not working anymore I got a job important me no of course not so what how did you go down in this home invasion case so the that it was in that one that particular one there was another guy my friend uh was my friend Tony who passed away now too he wanted to uh came approach me like I used to tell you people come up to me he wanted his one of his people killed because he had a million dollar life insurance policy out on them and the premium was going to go up and all this kind of so I said okay let me look into it so he gave me the address I sent the kid Mike up there gave him a $1,000 to go up there and look at the place and he came back and he told me it can't be done I said okay don't worry about out like he said it was too hard you know I he was he wasn't going to do it anyway he just wanted to get a Payday with it which was okay by me because I had the money and it just made me look like I had things going on and I was still doing things this because I didn't get the job yet so I went back to Tony and said listen Tony it can't be done and that was it the end of it but because something happened with him he got pinched with drugs or something like that now he saw I got a gangster that I'm working for I could do this and that's how he implicated me oh so he ratted on you the guy that wanted to have you whack this other person for the insurance money is now saying that hey look at this guy he was going to kill somebody for me yes he was gonna no not even Tony the guy the guy that I hired to go look at the place he says I got this guy and I think he's going to kill me after I kill this guy and he was like he's a real gangster so cuz I he thought it was a real gangster but isn't this something you can easily clear up cuz you went straight to your FBI Handler to to tell never told him about that because why didn't you tell him about that that's a pretty big that's a that's a major crime I'll tell you why two things one I reported a another conversation that Tony and I had 10 years before that maybe eight more 12 years before that when I was early started he wanted to have his partner Cliff killed Cliff I used to go to school we were friends but he didn't like cliff and he wanted me to Whack Him He said I'll give you 50 Grand I said okay so I went back to the FBI Handler and I reported it and he said yo we're not going to do nothing with it because I don't want you to be off the street right now because I was that valuable to them and he said listen if he gives you the 50 Grand then what we'll do is we'll you'll bring another guy to him and we'll set it up that way this way you think the guy was good and it'll it'll water it down where I wasn't involved this was his plan well the guy never gave me the $50 so I never so that was it was never pursued again and it was the same thing when he said about this guy it wasn't real enough so come to us when it's real exactly okay so the same thing happened here so after this guy this kid who you went to sent paid $1,000 to go scope out the place where this hit would maybe go down yes he gets pinched doing a robbery he gets pinched doing some kind of other drugs nobody ever knew about the robbery he told them about that after he gets arrested wow okay so how long after this happened did you get arrested uh a matter of weeks wow couple weeks they didn't even have a search warrant that's why I'm in the law books now my attorney at that time Jose mun and me were under the Fourth Amendment they did an illegal search and seizure on my house you know how hard that is to win in a state court never mind Federal it's almost like a never heard of right but that's because they were they were so there's a thing called informant shopping FBI agents that are stronger than the ones that you're dealing with can steal you from them because they want you to work for them because you're that good of an Informer right Vinnie when he retired this guy Mike tretta didn't have the power Vinnie had Vinnie was high up in the ranks in the FBI thanks to probably half the that I gave him but the bottom line was he couldn't protect me and so they said well you were gonna really do this crime I was gonna listen John I'm not gonna kill any but first of all two things if I really wanted to kill somebody for money or anything do you think I really need a thug a stupid dude or whatever may be to kill for me no and plus I'm not killing anybody to make a million dollars when I'm just regular doing good on my own so was your plan to have the hit set up and ready to go and then go to the feds no so then why even do this in the first place just to tell my friend that I had because the V guy took a video tape of the house and everything and showed where it can't be done it was on the main road it was winter time I think and so I just gave the guy the payday so I kept that Thug under my belt and then I went back to show my friend Tony what happened I said look Tony you know it's not it can't it's not going to be able to happen B it's too difficult so now yeah he he was he was what they call uh uh there's a word for it pretending to be what he wasn't really he wantedi yeah it's a fasi but he yeah he's he I forget what postering is the word he tried to be postering for me so they could say hey look man that's Tony he wants me to but they didn't have to come to talk to me like that you go to talk to me about the birds and the Beast talk about anything then you got arrested by the state for conspiracy to commit murder no feds wow CU that's cuz that's a law in the feds murder for higher I think it's 1965 or something like that 655 something so you went and fought this case I went all the way to trial wow yep how long did that take I was in the solitary confin for 15 months and I did a total of 19 months on my second bid but 15 months is the what gave me the PTSD and messed my hell head up altoe really when I hear Keys jingle I still jump that was Rikers no I I never got there thank God because that place is Like Gladiator School even cosos don't even want to be working there where were you where were you I was in uh MDC Brooklyn okay that's a bad place too though I mean just the the isolation I was there locked up 23 hours a day 24 hours a day locked up on Saturday and Sunday one phone call every 15 minutes what the feds did was they Le every 15 you mean every every 15 minutes once a month yeah the feds got it put me out in the newspaper that I was cooperating because I didn't want to work with them anymore while you're in there yes uh even before when I was in the street I didn't work work that's why they rearrested me they let me out on bail on my own recogniz they they took the half a million I had in the bank as a to make sure I was going to do anything right and they got nasty with me they said you ever go over our head because I called up the assistant us attorney I said these guys don't leave me alone they wanted me to go after the geneves family now because that's the squad that they were on and they knew my connection to it that's why they wanted me so I called up the US US attorney m m uh Miriam Roker was her name I think she's like on she's like on TV on news or something like that now she uh she called him up and said easy go he's let him do his thing like he normally does but these guys when I got arrested I was away for four days before I got released back out I said how am I going to explain that I'm missing you know what they told me oh just tell them you met some broad you ran away to Atlantic City I said what TV show are you watching cuz I ain't never done that what was you why were you supposed to go missing what was the well they arrested me and now nobody knew where I was all my friends in my town thought I got killed the light in the basement was still on right and they thought I got murdered because of my life style I was leading yeah so they had actually a couple of cops that they knew in town they were going to go there and that's when the FED says no right that was it so that's so so when you got released uh on your own reconnaissance it's because the feds wanted you to keep working you want to laugh sure this is what they gave me a piece of paper saying that they had a uh it was like a thing to say that I was under suspicion or whatever and that I still might get indicted and I could show people this paper that yeah they they they didn't arrest me they just took me down but they couldn't they don't they don't have enough to hold me yet which is crazy like how stupid do they think these Street guys are this is what I'm trying to say how do you act and you put me out in the street like that are you crazy then they made me call a pat Lombardo he was in a Gambino associated with them he knew I was talking to him he says I know they're probably recording me now and they all on the trans you here I said yep and I and I'm I'm giving him the small talk and he is he knows that I'm that's what it was okay so then now the Secret's out is you're you're a rat and you're cooperating correct okay so then how long were you on the streets for two weeks and then they they came and rearrested you they put a GPS device on my thing on my phone and on my car and so when I went to go I was dating this other girl Lisa at the time and so I parked my car house I left the phone in the car and I went with her yeah I said these guys they don't leave me alone okay so did you were you why did they why did they come rearrest you I mean this whole thing is a show I'll tell you I went to George S Angelo a mafia attorney this is where the this is where the other thing's going to come in and this is where the other thing's going to come in about Patty Boy feletti George santoo santangelo I got him through a friend friend my friend's mother and I'll tell you about my friend later on he was the only guy I told out in the street that I was working for the federal government uh so what happened was he gave me this guy I paid him $45,000 cash and then I told him I was cooperating he went and told the gangsters I was cooperating because that's who he is he's a gangster but I wanted to try to keep my profile as a gangster at least that you know in front of him for a while but he was it was no way to get around it so when he went to go visit me after when I hired you on Sant angula they rearrested me because they said you hired a gangster lawyer I said I was trying keep my credit the street since you ruined it and so they arrested me wow and that was it then George santono came to see me and he says oh by the way Patty boy uh you know Patty boy right I says yeah he goes he says to say hello that means yeah Secrets out yeah you're wow so you went basically got a threat from a lawyer yep from a mob guy through a mob lawyer correct and they actually ended up arresting that guy right or they disbar him Bo that guy that was that was my other friend that was other no I'm talking about the lawyer ended up disbarring him or that was not Roy karw was the one who actually representing me later on okay and I had him disbarred because he he robbed me from money I gave him I was messed up when I was in the hole I couldn't concentrate I couldn't think he told me I'll hold on to the money because they're going to steal it from me Joe I said but my money is legitimate and it was but I couldn't think I couldn't concentrate so I gave him a few hundred, to hold on to and he started giving back to me some of it and then he still wound up keeping it was really over it's about 90,000 but it was like 86,000 so I went to what they call The Lawyers Fund to get it The Lawyers Fund is is for people who get robbed by attorneys yeah but they tried to retry me saying I I was a you know a gangster I did this I I was like I already won my case in the court why are you trying to write my case again the lawyer out and out robbed me he borrowed money from me while I was in The Joint wow 21,000 bags all around because they won't because they're all part of the same hypocrisy they that's it they're in the same system when I went to Su the government for $20 million there's a thing called summary judgment the lawyers up there the judges knocked me out because they said oh he's talking about killing kids now kids is a slang term to me even though you're you're not a kid but you're younger than me so I said that that you know that kid John you know I would say like that but that's a slang term it doesn't mean that I'm not going to hurt no 5-year-old 10y old kid it's ridiculous um so they rearrest you charge you with conspiracy to commit murder you go back to M MDC Brooklyn yep and then now you're in there for a year and a half fighting your case fighting the feds which is that's a short time to be fighting the feds well I get in there and now they that since they leaked it out in the paper they didn't leak it out right away I went in there then they re then they arrested Tony my codefendant right Tony was the guy who approached me with the murder for yeah so what happened was uh now because the Bop gets WI of this and that's the that's the that's the that's the guys they use to put me in the Box because they want to punish me for not working with them anymore I see and that's it right and now well but what good are you anyways like the secrets out that you're ratting what good could you be from them more no no more of course not but I wouldn't have worked with them anyways even if I was good because they were like I told you they said to me oh yeah we'll give you money put out on the street I said okay so what happens when I don't collect it what do you want me to do what about your Handler this whole time I tried to call him once he didn't answer the phone and then another time uh the guy Michael G came to me when I had to meet him and he says don't call Vinnie no more so Vinnie had to protect himself because he actually testified against me and on the stand okay so you've got Michael Gator as your attorney Michael Gator is the FBI agent I'm sorry who's your attorney now so I had that actually took you went with you to trial that was uh well then later on that was Jose mun all right and the girl who I was engaged to at the time found him for me okay yep so you guys go to trial yep how long does trial last trial lasted uh uh we see was it suppression hearing first then after the suppression hearing and I won that it kind of took the wind out of his sales right I was on the stand for a day and a half right um and did this all come out like hey was a Public Authority Cas he is a FBI asset he's he set this whole thing up well they let me added a whole judge buckwald who was the judge he was the he was the judge on your case she was she was Jud judge buckwald yeah judge buckwald was actually really good with me on the trial uh when she had found out that I saved the judge's life and everything like that that really turned her around now she had asked me she says well okay what did Mr Baron provide for the FBI in 18 years he said well the uh a USA said they gave a few lyser plates and some few phone numbers and she says well where's his file so they had my file on the desk it was this big right and that was a lot of license plates in the phone number so she said I want to see that in camera that means she'll take it in the back and go over it well the next time I appeared for court totally different judge she read what I did in that thing and she was totally different she actually talked with me asked me questions she was actually a very good judge she was the type of Judge like I told you I don't like No Nonsense people just come to her courtroom on time and be ready with all the stuff you need to be ready with so but why was there a new judge uh well that's the only judge I had from the whole time oh you said when I got back there was a new Jud there was a totally new judge you mean a new like Vibe no no yeah totally new VI yes that's right new VI yes got so uh did it ever actually make it to trial or did you win the motion to suppress I won the motion to suppress what were you trying to suppress what evidence the illegal search and seizure because that's when they found the guns in my house I see so they found illegal guns you're still carrying guns after all this time hot pistols had yeah I had to um I I well at one time there was a time where I owned I mean that doesn't matter I mean I owned like over 30 guns oh wow oh yeah you're a gun guy yeah I'm a good shot too W so you had a bunch of different do you have machine guns or are they ma guns I had pistols I had rifles Joseph yeah I know I would not have pegged you for a crazy gun nut I used to go to this one place in Mount Vernon and I had my Uzi and then I had my pistol grip shotgun and I had my pistol and so I used to practice how fast I could draw I used to have a leather jacket a long leather jacket and even on my other short leather jackets I'd have the pocket cut out so did this way if I ever had the gun when I lifted my gun up the jacket folded over and it was clear to make clear shots that's yeah I had my little yeah like I said we all have our little tricks W but that when you have a sheet on you and they find that many guns you're looking at a lot of time yes they only found uh was it two or two guns in my Department two in my house two or three so you're trying to that was a legal C so you're trying to suppress that and I did and that was successful the judge even said right on the thing we have it in the transcript she knew they were lying wow yep that was it was beautiful John let me tell you something that was I went downstairs I got on my hands and knees and thank God because I knew that that was it's almost unheard of and you could ask anybody else that you talk to and you know you've been around a lot of people it's almost unheard of yeah people never win when there's a legal search warrants they never win when they try to appeal them or suppress them and they won once that won that was it they couldn't use any evidence they found in my house or my car wow okay so now there it's just the word of this scumbag yep uh saying that you directed an order to kill this guy that's right John okay so but the feds aren't tossing it they still they well they ain't going to give up we asked for they're not giv up we asked she got mad but both both the attorneys the other my other uh the Cod defendant uh Ed McDonald you know Ed McDonald Ed McDonald was in the movie Goodfellas oh okay and he's been done a lot of movies and he's done and he's pretty high up there who was he in Good Fellas he was the lawyer he was the he was the prosecutor remember when he oh that's great yeah remember yeah that was him so my my friend hired him because he has he was a multi-millionaire oh okay yeah so so he's your lawyer or he's the prosecutor he was the he was my codefendants attorney okay got you I had Jose mun wow as my attorney okay so how long did trial last so the trial I think it lasted about a week and you got is a jury jury trial yeah oh yeah okay one of the ladies that was in the jury trial her I think her brother or her brother-in-law worked for the FBI how do they let her on the you know something she was a better witness CU you know let's face it I got up there everybody kind of knew that when Vinnie testified against me U my hand LIF for 18 years they knew he was lying why did your Handler testify against you this is crazy I know this is what trying are you hapless are you lying to me like how is all these just happening to you it's all it's all on transcripts it's all court records I don't have to lie about anything do you feel like this is karma for your decision to like do you ever think about like just this slew of bad things happening is like you you know your father from the grave something spiritual saying man you should not have turned on the mob this was a bad decision no I don't think so I think like you like I said you make a decision in the moment sometimes sometimes it's not always the right decision don't get me wrong 18 years of decisions yeah um and but like going back before too I'm not happy with what I did I I didn't like it and especially like I said the PE some of the people I met were real scum I mean but then you I met a guy like Dominic and Dominic is still my friend to this day so when you were on trial did Dominic know about no he might have heard about it afterwards you know what I mean I'm sure he wasn't happy but this wasn't a big headline just everybody in the Street knew that guy Joe Barone went bad no it was a big headline it was on the front of the cover of the daily news wow yeah so so was it FBI inform is now on trial for Mur I it said right in a trap or something like that yes it did it did okay so so this is all bad this is your very bad everybody in the five families knows like this guy Joe is is a rat right now according to Dominic and and I have to agree with him on this the mob is not what it used to be as opposed to getting guys like me or coming after me because first of all I don't really know what damage I done to the mafia as opposed to you know that information I gave him and and uh they don't know either I never took the stand against anybody right but there's always that there's a the movie to shoot us with John Wayne there's a part in there where he was talking to uh Ron Howard and everything and he said I shot the same thing as you and everything he says what makes you better than me he says well because I won't blink I won't do these certain things he says but did they ever tell you about that third eye he said what do you mean that third eye somebody that just comes out of shadows out of nowhere somebody nobody knows and then shoots you that's the guy you got to worry about so I interrupted how did this how did this trial end so it ended with the hung jury the reason why it was a hung jury is only because of a conspiracy law they don't know see conspiracy law just so you know is illegal it's it's really it they do it because nobody really understands it and it's very hard to do and I can't get into the lisic of it not here today anyways with you but if you could look it up it's really illegal that's the only thing I was hungry but they found me not guilty at all because when I went to take the stand you know my lawyer told me he didn't say what are you g to do if the assisant US attorney ask you this or do that he didn't say one thing he say go up there and turn and and talk to them like you're talking to them on your living room couch he said Joe Nobody Knows Your Story better than you just tell it right and you're telling the truth so 100% so it's you don't have to be nervous because it's very rare that a defendant actually goes and testifies on his own behalf right it's extremely rare this in itself kind of shows the The credibility of what you're saying didn't even take the he wanted me he said Joe can you say this can you say that I said Tony don't worry about it I'm just going to tell the truth you're going to be okay believe me I actually now you're sitting in the courtroom you know the judges on your side here the jury's on your left and you know everybody's whoever in the audience there I turned and Fa the jury yeah I wanted them to see my eyes because I know I was telling the truth I know I was not guilty I know I didn't kill anybody I know I was right right and they they knew it too wow yep they went right in there and deliberated I think it took about a couple hours because I think it's whatever it was did you feel confident did you feel like you guys had a good shot uh CU you could tell but how you look in the jury's eyes you could tell how they feel about you well when when the the US attorney went up there and and they were they they denied my my involvement about saving the judge's life and all of this stuff the judge got so angry she she called them to the sidebar she was yelling at them and this all in the transcripts I have the transcripts in front of the jury in front of the jury she says all along you've been saying how he saved the judge's life and the US attorney's life and now you're saying he didn't now either you go and tell the jury that that that's not true or I will wow and so he said Zach was his name he said no I'm gonna say it he went over there he goes okay Mr Baron did give information to help the S save the judge's life that was the ice and on a cake right that was the Cherry now what about Tony your codefendant cuz he actually did try to get this guy murdered he actually was guilty yeah he and and some in some way he was because he did he really in my opinion and I've been out there long enough doing this kind of stuff in my opinion he didn't really mean it he was just postering for me that's Tire kicking yeah he just wanted to pretend like he you know something I don't listen you think he was really going to give me half a million dollars if he would have got the million dollar life insurance policy if somebody no no but the his culpability but that's not really what's in question it's about did he conspire to have this person killed to some to some some stent and to some degree yes but but that he was scared but you're sure I imagine he walked up to the girl at that time I was engaged to uh he said to her he says you know listen do you know what she told him Tony relax you could be sitting in jail right now cuz he was actually able to get Bale I was sitting in the Box you know what that feds told me cooperate against Tony and you're out just like that and you know the feds can take you right out of the prison how come I didn't cooperate on Tony now Tony's nobody you see you had made up a couple of good points about certain things about cooperating and making up things or putting some people away do you know how many people that I could have put away I never did and Tony was perfect one of I could have been whole free with the whole thing yeah and I didn't do it yeah because he was my friend yeah and I didn't do a lot of things to my friends and I actually when I came home I one of the guys pulled over and I said oh so and so I didn't want to say his name and I said he said Joe I didn't say nothing bad about you as a matter of fact you protected me wow that's why another guy came to me and he said to me we can't figure you out Joe because he was he's actually really good friends with Chuck Zito I guess you know chucko chucko is a dynamite Guy totally Legend a legend he doesn't like me anymore now viously and I don't blame him he's and I and I agree with him uh I met Chuck Zito a long time ago when he was with the Hell's Angels and he had the motorcycle he had a saying on a motorcycle and I will not say the same because that that you're not allowed to unless you're a Hell's Angel guy but chucko and I had a long conversation in his my this guy's basement and Chuck was a dynamite he's a dynamite guy and I asked him if I could say the angel when I when I the saying when I met him and he said yeah and he was all excited uh give me a big high five but this guy that's good friend mutual friend of ours said we can't figure you out Joe you you told on some people and then you didn't say anything that we did I said I don't know what you're talking about you see I'm not saying I'm not a r I'm not saying I didn't do the wrong thing I'm not saying I don't feel bad about what I did but I had went into a different kind of a mentality when I thought that my father was killed right or wron that I did I that's what I did and that's that's the bottom line well it's honor honorable of you to not give up Tony and it sounds like he got he his case was wrapped in with yours so that hung jury was for him too it was both of us found not guilty so and and is but hung means it's the decision split so the you the attorney us attorney has the right to recharge you they tried they came they we went back down to court uh was it a month later or something like that I forget and then the judge says listen you couldn't find them guilty on the murder for high do you want to try to get him for exp conspiracy now too and sure enough they said no they just tossed it they to wow you beat the feds man I beat him yeah but what did I really win John what did I really win my name is ruined I'm out in the street God only knows what could happen from one day to the next I'm not I could have sued them for them if if they would have gave me the million eight that $100,000 a year in 18 years if they would have gave me my million a at least I could walk away into the sunset kind stay lowkey I wouldn't have to do any podcasts and things of this they never paid you though nope and was there anything in writing that said they needed to pay you NOP that's the problem that's why they don't sign contracts that's right so you're suing them now uh I tried to and then it got it got kicked out on summary judgment matter of fact I was in on my second bid some guy came well Joe Waverly was in the same place with me he's a wise guy too and he said is that the kid he had a couple of guys who him I said Hey Joe how you doing they thought they were going to jump me in there but I was I'm not afraid of you you know what I'm saying but this one guy came to me he said listen you cooperated right I was in MCC now cuz that's where the courthouse was s district and he said can I ask you a question I said sure he says I'm thinking about cooperating he says how do I go about it to do it the right way and you know what I told him get everything in writing yeah get everything in writing and don't do it without your attorney yeah because that's how dirty they are and I'm living proof why would you expose me there was another guy they exposed he worked with he was friends with John G they called him Willie Boy Johnson was his name he wasn't a wise guy but he was friends with John gave information on John but he told him I was never going to testify against him well guess what they wanted him to testify against him because you know they they they went back on their word what is big surprise because he didn't testify guess what they added him as the snitch wow you know where Willie Boy is now he's dead okay you see the feds do not care if you if they're put your life in danger well look what they did to me you mean to tell me 18 years of good service saving the life of this guy saving the life of that guy no good I even saved the listen even Mikey NOS the guy I was supposed to whack okay and I was you know they don't care nothing wow so that was 10 years ago 12 years ago I'm home now 14 years I got out in 2010 I got arrested in January 9th 2009 I got out in I think was July 9th I think in 2010 okay so 19 months total and you've been and you moved out of New York I assume because now you got no protection what about the witness protection was that even an offer they offered me that I think three times but let me ask you John would you take the antidot from the same people who gave you the poison right you trust them why would they offer you that but not the 1.8 million just to be gone you know why they got to make it look like they did the right thing the all this all and for your viewers that probably don't know all all the stuff that they do out here in the world is a facade all the stuff is all fake yeah now do the FBI protect you and help you in certain ways like maybe they might arrest a terrorist hey that's great thank you appreciate it but they all unless you go to prison or you have somebody that's in prison you don't know what prison's like you don't know what it's like for you the person who you knew or loved went away you know you got drugs oh yeah no I know about marijuana oh where did they get the fenil how did my son die how did do they don't know because they're not involved in it that's the secret of the government keep everybody in the dark where they good guys why can why is the media here a bias against certain people and and do this but yet when they say that the the they say that the other media in other countries like Russia or China oh they control the media well we do it here too of course but we do it because we're the good guys it's different that's that's that's Li what is that other saying one man's terrorist is another man's another man's Freedom Fighter it's all a game it's a joke it's who's in power who's not look at OJ Simpson he won his case he had the money he had the thing now whether he did it or not that's neither here or there but he won did uh so when did you sue them you're suing him for $20 million I lost that case a few years ago okay damn I know because do you know how good that would have been I even tried to get on Fox News I to these people I talk to them and everything like that you listen they had Sammy de Bull on there yeah who's a better witness about the FBI what they're doing to like what they did to Donald Trump and all these lies they come up with I'm not I'm not the disgruntled worker I was there for with them 18 years if I don't know who knows yeah I mean well I think I think part of it was that you didn't directly help take down any big-time bosses you know Sammy the bull ratted on literally he had the Good Fortune of having the biggest target right in FBI mob history you know and that what you brought up is a perfect thing here's Sammy deul doing all the murders yeah he said he did they said he did 19 murders I had heard it was even like more like 23 yeah probably okay but that's neither here or that at Sammy whether he wants to say it or not that's not my place whether it's true or not I don't know but they let Samy go and they put John away because they wanted him so bad you know and and like I said and then where's the Loyalty in the mafia look what they did to Michael Frances here's a guy making he said he was making 8 to 10 million a week now if that's true let's say it's true because I don't know I I wasn't with him when it so he's giving his boss what if he's making $8 million a week what is he giving $2 million a week they never saw that kind of money but yet they had to like pretend to threaten him because they made thought he was going to take over the family because the money buys the family yeah where's the Loyalty look like we talked about my friend Dominic yeah Dominic was going to do the time but you make it like he's an orphan now yeah we look stupid it's just stupid it doesn't make any sense that's why I said if I had real friends and if Dominic was my friend and he wasn't in that life and I wasn't in that life and stuff like that I would never told on him because I didn't tell all my other friends now people could believe that or not you don't have to believe it either but it's the truth because I've already proved it I can't say and have the people come forward because then they might want to ask those people what I did yeah and I don't expect them to not keep their mouth shut because they're legitimate people are you worried at all you're of New York you're tucked away somewhere you know can in the cut are you worried at all about reprisals I always look over my shoulder remember I said to you when I first met you how tall you was in a second yeah yeah and you said it took sometimes a couple people couple guesses yeah I I I I I have the gift thank God because I have to have it I've had it for years and that's not going to change right you know uh my C girlfriend had asked me a long time ago she said you know Joe are you one of those guys who think you still got it or you lost it you got to see if you still got it I says no she says why I said because I never lost it I am who I am do I want to act like I'll do this or do that well whatever happens happens but you're not going to just come and just take me that easy it's not going to happen Joe Baron plug plug away man what uh what's your podcast called so I we got uh Round Table co-host with Dominic Cali and I'm helping another friend of mine out with uh good fellow podcast and that's going it's it's slow but I'm trying to help out what's it called uh good fellow you know good fellow okay gotcha the good fellow podcast okay awesome and all the links will be in the bio thanks so much for coming down here man thanks a lot for my pleasure yeah know I had a real good time and real pleasure meeting you and absolutely I appreciate all your questions well we'll switch over to patreon for a few more questions patreon.com theconnect show once again Joe Baron uh super good time talking to you man great thanks thanks for having take care you too [Music]
