"Scoop" on Netflix: The true story of the Prince Andrew BBC interview

Sam McAllister it's so great to meet you and of course we're here to talk about the new movie scoop on Netflix which is all about your pursuit of a big interview with prince Andrew I've never been smuggled into a palace before and before we talk about that I'd love to hear a little more about how you got into this crazy business because you started out as a criminal defense lawyer yeah that's right I did and I have to be honest with you um I did it for a couple of years and I'd spent a lot of time in education obviously but I hated it with a visceral passion and I thought you know can I do this for another 30 well nowadays 40 or 50 years and the answer was a Resolute no so I did something that I'd learned from my time at College which was connections and I asked three friends who did interesting jobs if I could spend some time with them and one of them happened to be a journalist at the BBC and the rest is history is that how you got your foot in the door at the BBC through your friend yeah I mean I feel bad now it sounds terribly anti meritocratic but I I'd grown up in this country and the weird class system we had my parents left school at 14 we had no connections or contacts and I learned that was hugely important so I went and did two days work experience effectively as a 26-year-old ex ex criminal defense lawyer and everyone on the team was working on legal stories and I was the only one that had legal training and you know they think you know the law so I didn't tell them otherwise and it went well and then I was offed six weeks and six weeks became I think God it must have been 16 years wow and you worked for a show called newsight which is probably one of the most esteemed shows at the BBC and yet you were portrayed as kind of more of a taoy Daily Mail type journalist how true was that and how much did you have sort of a push and pull with the journalists who wore the capital J on their jumpers as you would call them I love that description oh look you know basically you have to truncate everything into a small space so I suppose the way that we give you an idea that I'm slightly different from some of the rest of the team who are all fantastic brilliant hard committed journalists you know just so clever and so hardworking but in truth I was really interested in news lines I wanted my work to make impact and as you can probably tell I'm not a snob of any kind and I'm a huge fan of tabloids they do incredible work and if you do hard work and it disappears Into The Ether and no one ever hears about it you know so I wanted to make impact for the program with the content that we had to give us longevity to give us impact to give us visibility so as someone once jokingly said I tried to put the news into news night I mean it was in the name and I was always chasing it so I suppose that is the shorthand in the movie of showing how sometimes perhaps my Pursuit was let's get a headline rather than let's have an esoteric intellectual conversation at length uh that was really my motivation for better or worse the timing of this film and this scoop if you will was when the BBC and really media in general was starting to shall I say crater or starting to decline anyway and it it begins with the head of the BBC talking about how they were going to have have to cut jobs so it was against this backdrop that you were really pursuing this interview how big a role did that play in reality of this need for big he lines and big Scoops especially given the fact that the BBC was having financial trouble I mean it's really interesting because unfortunately the position of most of my colleagues at the BBC and myself for the time that I was there is that every year to 18 months your job was in Peril and you kind of became hardened to the Peril you know now from watching the movie I fact a single parent working part-time in a very expensive city and obviously you know lucky to have have a BBC salary but with respect it doesn't stretch far so there was real Peril for me in my work my work though I tried to keep separate that pursuit of Excellence trying to bring content that mattered whether it was a prince Andrew scoop or whether it was talking to someone in politics or a world leader trying to keep that content for my program and to make sure that the team got the plaudits that they deserved that was really my obsession so in a sense the two were separate but we were always and constant in Peril and newsight sadly is still in real Peril yes that's a whole different discussion about the state of modern journalism we could have it another time but I know that the movie focuses on this huge interview that you were able to secure with prince Andrew and the inner workings and behind the scenes sort of uh negotiating and and minations if you will that one has to go through kind of a weird delicate dance almost that you had to participate in with with those who surrounded him can you talk a little bit about booking big interviews this is something I know a little bit about but from your perspective what's involved that people would never actually realize I think why I'm so proud to be part of this movie and of course it is a sensibly about my character but it speaks to the volume of people in news and in journal journalism who spend weeks months maybe years trying to bring these important moments of Journalism to the screen so my job was 99% rejection you have to be very resilient you're trying to find the right person to ask for a world leader or you know someone who is forgive me plugging a film or a book as the case may be or famous actor or actress or someone in a parlor situation who you're trying to bring into the news Forum so this particular interview uh the conversation started 13 months prior that's not even my shortest period of time I spent three years pursuing a particular interview that I really really really wanted and so you were often just chasing a dream and most of the work I did seemed impossible and was factually impossible so a lot of emails a lot of making sure you're not annoying people a lot of trying to find the right person then they leave the job and then you have to start again a lot of rejection so it really was a job I met with optimism Relentless optimism and Relentless resilience and hard work because most of the work I did in my entire career none of you guys rightly would have ever heard about this was the one exception well let's talk about prince Andrew this was at a time when the Jeffrey Epstein story was being blown wide open and his association with Epstein was Raising more than a few eyebrows you had sort of tracked this relationship hadn't you uh because it wasn't it had been going on for a long time set the scene for us and why this interview was so important and so desirable at that moment well that's what's so fascinating about the work at the beginning of our tale 13 months prior to the interview actually happening to be frank with you prince Andrew was a bit of a forgotten Prince yes we knew about his association with Jeffrey but Jeffrey Epstein was still at large galain Maxwell wasn't even really being spoken about and prince Andrew was you know effectively slightly forgotten but doing his thing as we progressed over this period of time where the first negotiation I did where we turned it down the second one there was a red line so the editor turned that down too over the months that we were dealing with the palace the stakes got Higher and Higher and the situation for prince Andrew changed significantly so the interview on offer at the beginning 30 months prior of puff piece as we call them talking about his charitable work was hugely different to the interview that we were then chasing once Epstein was arrested indicted died in custody gay Maxwell was arrested and the FBI are involved and of course the most important person of all Virginia du Frey is bringing her case and making her allegations against prince Andrew which he strenuously denies a a fresh and this important story was being told all over the world so we go from an interview that is basically not relevant in a sense to the most relevant interview in the world and so the Peril for me obviously completely changed and that's the nature of the conversation was going to be totally completely utterly different and when you talk about a red line we don't necessarily use that in journalistic terms what do you mean by that because it was mentioned in the film as well absolutely so at the BBC and at newsight we pride oursel on you know having conditions on our interviews that they need to be something that has free to be pretentious momentarily you know freedom of speech access to like proper rigor and bite in our case and so effectively along the way you know there were restrictions um as we would call red lines and we don't do restrictions so we politely declined to do the two offers of interviews that we spoke about and then we chased the unfettered interview we ended up doing which of course is the duty in a sense of the BBC particularly but of Journalism in general the original interview was for the pitch at the palace kind of a a shark tank iteration of a royal iteration of the of The Apprentice oh yeah The Apprentice or Shark Tank right you know um a little bit of that as well where he was meeting with entrepreneurs who are trying to I guess get attention and maybe some financial assistance for their businesses or startups whatever so that was the original requests right and that's what you were negotiating originally that never happened right you were still in negotiations we turned that down because that's what we call a puff piece which is basically an advert for an individual without proper journalistic rigor so we declined when I go back in May for the conversation with Amanda TH or key hores as the case may be which we dramatize in the movie uh we did very well in that conversation just the two of us and I managed to get some things back onto the table at brexit for example which usually members of the royal family don't discuss but the red line if you like the Restriction as we might say that they wanted was to not discuss Jeffrey Epstein and you said no can do I said um are you sure you don't want to change your mind let's give it 24 hours and then of course I went back to the office we discussed it and of course we can't do a red line we can't do a condition so we turned it down twice by now twice and so how did you get them to finally agree that he needed to do this interview that it would be in his best interest to do this interview which I'm sure was something that they considered well because things changed so profoundly between that may period and the November period in which this interview factually took place because of all of those changes for Jeffrey Epstein being arrested indicted dead gay Maxwell being arrested indicted prince Andrew in the bi Virginia je fre so the story became the biggest story in the world to be honest and so obviously my conversations with them changed the conversation was everybody is talking about this people are drawing their own conclusions on you you keep providing a feline written piece of you know document to give your reputation people need to hear from you the modern landscape is different from what it used to be when prince Andrew was a young man and a war hero and popular it was a very different landscape and if he wanted to change The Narrative of how people perceived him if he wanted to do something to basically talk about these claims and to defend himself then he needed to do it in person he needed to do it on camera that was my argument that was our argument and we were offering an incredible opportunity to do that to the nation and to the world and it was up to him how that opportunity went because the questions were fair and he was in charge of his answers no commitments no promises but they've agreed to meet right this stays in this room just the four of us if it leaks that we're even meeting they could get spooked and of course we know those answers were disastrous but it could have been different well let's talk about that the interview itself I remember watching it in real time but rewatching the film version which I think was probably word for word for the actual interview you had to wonder how the hell did his people let him do this and who prepped him for this interview and then we'll talk about the disconnect uh between how you all thought it went at the BBC and how the palace went but let's start with the first part were you shocked as you watched him answer these questions that he seemed so unprepared and so I don't know not really focused on what he was saying it's an interesting one because obviously during my career I've spent a lot of time with with people with a lot of power and success and money and in in essence prince Andrew is the most extreme example of that he is a creature of the creation of the royal family of his birth he's been told for 59 years at this stage that he's incredible amazing and Brilliant he's been told you know he doesn't need to worry about his bills he's never had a 360 or an appraisal he's never had to get a job or worry about any of the things that keep most of our feet on the ground but CEOs around the world they're surrounded by people who tell them that they're amazing and he is just a very extreme example of that so to put it bluntly no one ever thinks they're going to do a bad interview he had people around him who believed in him and that is the job to believe in the person that you're working for and you know I kind of feel for Amanda th who was a brilliant person who I dealt with so cool calm collected and professional and she believed in him and she thought he would do a good job and he believed in himself a hundred times over and thought that he would do a brilliant job too and yet I have to say sam this was a very serious matter it was about accusations that he was really a pedophile that he had sex with underage girls or at least one underage girl and these were huge legal issues so this wasn't your run-of-the-mill interview where he I mean this I cannot believe that the palace didn't provide lawyers for him didn't advise him that a crisis manager didn't advise him it just seems so bizarre to me I mean because I wasn't with him I don't know the exact machinations of you know who advised him and who didn't but I can tell you that factually in the negotiation on the Monday which we dramatize in the movie where you see my character or me as the case may be Billy Piper saying to him about him being known as Randy Andy that factually happened on the Monday with respect you know how people see you spell it out Randy Andy with respect and on that Monday he said some of the things that you guys heard on camera to us in that room including Pizza Express woking and about the medical condition that he said that he had about not sweating so we had it on the Monday and you know because of the work that you do that no one ever says that on camera so on the Monday we spoke to them they said yes on the Tuesday the interviews on the Thursday my assumption was that when the camera came on it would be effectively 45 minutes of apologizing in different ways for his friendship of regret about the pain that you know Junior J Frey had suffered while obviously trying to get around a liability or confessing to having done anything because he still strenuously denies it but we had heard it on the Monday and I never believed he'd say it on camera so in a sense my shock was the fact that he hadn't been told not to say any of those things by the Thursday uh he obviously felt that they were credible things to put into the public domain to explain his behavior and obviously the public had a different view how involved were you in coming up with the question s he was asked I thought that the anchor played by Jillian Anderson did a masterful job and really kept her cool during the the whole interview process how true was that to the actual interview and can you tell us about writing those questions because I've been in that situation and it's often a team effort 100% so the only samean person by this stage Cas to be honest with you was Esme Ren who's played by Roma gar in the movie she stayed at the office she was in charge of this she took responsibility and really in a sense it was mostly Emily and her locked away in a room together bearing the burden to be honest of this massive responsibility because being a Booker is a bit like being a surrogate parent you kind of give birth to the baby and then you have to hand a baby over and into their incredible hands I was able to put this opportunity and obviously other people worked on the team with me and in later stages of the negotiation but they took that responsibility which was onerous and huge and they spent those two days preparing those cool calm collected methodical brilliant questions that gave him space with his answers to tell us what we needed to know what did you make of the fact that the palace was like well done and he felt great and he was smiling and seemed to be very pleased with himself following an interview which by every account was a complete and utter disaster I think that was the most extraordinary moment for me because obviously you have to keep a poke a face throughout an interview like that the level of professionalism is really important inside of course you're dying as a journalist you know you can't believe what he's saying but as I lifted my eyes I was 15 feet behind him at the end of that interview you see a real difference in the reaction of the journalistic team all of whom look Ashen I mean we hadn't slept you know we were Delirious we knew the importance of what we had in terms of his interview answers and the prince himself who as you rightly say look look please just punch so the space between the reactions really spoke I feel to his misunderstanding about how good his answers have been what was the immediate impact when that interview aired and was it a slow realization on the part of the palace that this was not a good thing for prince Andrew yes I mean I can only imagine what it was like you know being in Palace watching this play out because for us it was an extreme situation to see it travel around the world and usually you know the jury's out to some people you get 50% you get good feedback bad feedback you know the world agreed that this had been a disastrous situation and his answers were difficult and bad and at best and so it was a very difficult time you know for us dealing with the volume of people coming in and talking to us about this and wanting to talk about about this interview and I can only imagine the slow realization that he had of how terribly this had truly gone I'll never know for sure I wasn't there with him of course but it must have been a real baptism of fire those days after and even now these years later we are still talking about this interview and it features in the British press almost every day to be honest with you in in a mention or something somewhere so really quite something absolutely well let's talk about the impact this interview had what transpired following its airing absolutely I mean in no way are we looking to kind of claim responsibility for the incredible work that you know Virginia du fre did and you know her situation and the lawyers and you know the work that they were doing on her behalf but factually you know there werei there was civil litigation that was happening that came to a conclusion after this interview Ed he accepted no liability but it was rumored to be a very big sum and I in a small part I expect that the conversation around him and this interview played a small part in that but what it meant for him was that just four days after this interview aired he was effectively sacked by his own mother you know the Queen's favorite son as he was had to withdraw from public life and he now lives in a sense as some kind of you know Pariah really in comparison to the incredible time he had when he was a war hero as a young man so really for him the consequences were fast and they were very clear and they were very unusual and of course you know watching as I was at home on my sofa like eating some Pringles I think other snacks were available you know with my son minding my own business under a heated blanket because Energy prices here are crazy and that flashed on the screen and I could not believe it you know because to see this journalism Emily's hard work esme's hard work the newsight team's hard work come to this incredible outcome when we never envisaged that so it was really quite an overwhelming and Swift outcome for him tell me about some of the other big interviews you booked Sam while you were at the BBC ah well all the full gamut I mean everyone from Julian Assange um if you've had the the good luck or Misfortune as the case may be to read my book a particular handshake inside the Ecuadorian Embassy I've never really recovered from it lingered let's say world leaders Justin Trudeau Netanyahu and then famous people like you know Amy Schumer that kind of vibe so uh we had really the full gamut in terms of the people that I was allowed to Chase and I one day would be dealing with you know the American Embassy and the next day I would be dealing with a Hollywood agent so a really eclectic mix but as I said most of it would be no so it would be the exception when someone said yes because who would want to come on with someone like Emily Maus the foremost presenter in the UK one of the most brilliantly gifted journalists in the world and risk it all It's A Hard Sell but I was the person that was trying to do that sell and I guess it depends on what you're talking about in any given interview some are riskier than others you talk about getting the answer no what was the one big interview that got away that you most regret not securing well I secured an interview that my team declined and uh I'm not a bitter person but I'm still talking about it 10 years later so maybe I'm more bitter than I thought we had the opportunity of an interview with Dennis Rodman and he' just come back from North career where he formed an unlikely friendship with the somewhat murderous premere of that country uh he'll probably sue me now what can I say and I had the opportunity to have the first interview with him not only with pictures of him and Kim Junger the great leader smoking cigars but from the Vatican because he just had a meeting with the Pope it was to me basically the catnip I don't know if that's a phrase in America it was like could it get any better and my team declined it and I must admit I don't sulk very often but I sulked for I would say at least a day and clearly I've mentioned it now 10 years later so perhaps that was the one that got away it just felt like a no-brainer to me but to everyone else it didn't feel like the right fit and them's the breaks well tell me what was the rationale for not wanting to do it I think because the idea was that it wasn't kind of you know intellectually edifying enough and the News night audience perhaps wouldn't be very familiar with Dennis Rodman but I just feel if someone is you know a global figure who happens to be basically a celebrity who perhaps as well sometimes might be quite magical on television for good and bad reasons but who has factually met someone that very few people in the world ever get to meet who geopolitically is in charge of an area that's hugely important to Global Security I think we should have done it but you know I wasn't in charge you left the BBC in 2021 after being there for quite a number of years do you miss it at all oh there were great people there and I had some amazing times but I have to be honest no I'm very fortunate to have been able to do some incredible things since I left and wrote the book I mean who imagines being on set of a Netflix movie with an exceptional cast being played by Billy Piper who to be honest is an icon in our country and around the world you know it just doesn't happen to anyone I'm the luckiest woman alive and so it would be cherish of me to say anything other than the truth which is it was an incred career I loved every second but I'm really enjoying this new adventure and I feel hugely fortunate to be on it and you're teaching the art of negotiating at a college level is that right yeah there's a university here called the London School of economics and they oh I've heard of it yeah they have a law school and the dean there saw me speak and he invited me to be it sounds so impressive and I'm impressed every time I say it visiting senior fellow not quite sure what that is but doesn't it sound impressive it does and I teach negotiation non-legal negotiation on a legal skills course at London School of Economics so really that's also another dream come true Netflix and Academia as I said who would have guessed it when I left and wrote this tiny little book that all of this magic would come my way well I can't let you go Sam without asking you a question about the current woes of the British royal family there have been a lot of conversations about the way this was covered not only the way the palace handled it but sort of the way it was uh discussed online with with all the rumors and the conspiracy theories and I'm you know I know that you love tabloids I don't love tabloids quite as much as you do I think they can be grossly irresponsible and um and and twist things and misrepresent people but that's a that's another conversation Alto together as well but has there been any uh sort of second guessing or evaluation among your journalistic peers about how this whole chapter uh of the royal family has been covered and discussed well I I would say first of all that you know obviously tblo do some great work and some great journalism sometimes but um my interest was really in making impact for the E toic huttin content right to bring a little more more news for the common man to the broadcast yeah exactly it's good to access every home rather than just a few homes you know I think in this particular case you know journalism is a broad church and there are things that happen that perhaps we are concerned about that concern us deeply like chasing you know down people in very difficult situations and then there are things that journalism does that can be incredibly helpful like the scoop so I try not to conflate them together but to your point I think that really the pressure on the palace to provide information to a very hungry Global audience even the people who say they're not interested most of the time they actually are must be huge and it's obviously painful to see a young woman in a very difficult situation and a king obviously who has health concerns as well having to discuss that in you know Plain Sight and that is the burden of course of being a member of the real family and the burden of the communications people and it is a symptom of the modern world where we want to know everything about everyone but then say that we didn't really want to know it and that's the real the irony at the at the center of this and I know we both just wish that both of them returned to good health and that none of them really had to talk about this in the public domain well Sam McAllister the movie is called scoop it's really the story of you um get S you know scooping the competition and actually convincing the palace and prince Andrew that this is something he should do and needed to do by the way did his assistant or the woman you were dealing with in the film did she get sacked or did she resign um I I believe it was a combination of the two I mean she was a brilliant woman to deal with she was calm cool professional full of Integrity I really really liked her and we both know when you're second in command in her case or 20 second in my case if things go wrong we both know who's going to take the fool and you know very unfortunately I know people would say rightly but very unfortunately she you obviously lost her job and her livelihood so a very difficult situation for her and it could have been me well again Sam thank you so much it's really fun to talk to you and I hope that I get to meet you in person one day we can swap we can swap War Stories we can swap War Stories over alcohol I'll be there thank you for your time thanks Sam

Channel: Katie Couric

Views: 74,148

Keywords: Katie Couric, Katie, Celebrity, Entertainment

Id: Jpr9lYARk2A

Length: 30min 28sec (1828 seconds)

Published: Sat Apr 06 2024