ON A HILLSIDE FARM
IN RIPTON, VERMONT LIVES ONE OF AMERICA'S
FOREMOST POETS. BORN IN SAN FRANCISCO,
HE CAME EAST TO MAKE NEW ENGLAND
BOTH HIS HOME AND THE INSPIRATION
FOR HIS POETRY. HE SAID ONCE "A POEM BEGINS
WITH A LUMP IN THE THROAT". THE NATIONAL BROADCASTING
COMPANY PRESENTS A CONVERSATION
WITH ROBERT FROST. AND BELA KORNITZER,
HUNGARIAN BORN AUTHOR OF THE BOOK AMERICAN</i><i>
</i>FATHERS AND SONS.</i> HOW DO
YOU DO, SIR? HOW GOOD OF YOU TO COME
ALL THE WAY UP TO VERMONT FOR THIS INTERVIEW. WELL, IT'S
A PLEASURE. PLEASE
SIT DOWN. WELL, MR. FROST, I THINK
I SHOULD WARN YOU THAT YOU'RE THE FIRST POET
THAT I'VE EVER INTERVIEWED. I THINK I SHOULD
WARN YOU THAT YOU'RE THE FIRST MAGYAR THAT
EVER INTERVIEWED ME, SO YOU'D BETTER BE CAREFUL
ABOUT YOUR IDIOMS. WELL, I'LL TRY MY
BEST, MR. FROST. YOU MUST BE A COURAGEOUS
YOUNG MAN TO INTERVIEW A POET YOU'VE PROBABLY
NEVER READ MUCH OF. WELL, MR. FROST, I REMEMBER
THAT YOU YOURSELF SAID "COURAGE IS THE HUMAN
VIRTUE THAT COUNTS THE MOST - COURAGE TO ACT ON
LIMITED KNOWLEDGE". ISN'T THAT YOUR
PHILOSOPHY, MR. FROST? ESPECIALLY THE
"LIMITED" PART OF IT. EVERYBODY HAS SAID THAT
COURAGE IS THE GREATEST VIRTUE BUT THE POINT OF
WHAT I SAID WAS WE'VE GOT TO GO AHEAD
ON LIMITED KNOWLEDGE. A GENERAL HAS TO GO INTO
BATTLE ON LIMITED KNOWLEDGE, INSUFFICIENT KNOWLEDGE,
AND SOMEONE HAS SAID A POET OUGHT TO LEARN ALL
THAT ALL THE OTHER POETS HAVE EVER SAID BEFORE HE
UNDERTAKES TO SAY ANYTHING SO HE'LL AVOID
REPETITION. BUT IF HE DID THAT HE'D BE
50 YEARS OLD BEFORE HE STARTED AND ALL THE POETRY
THAT WAS EVER WRITTEN WAS REALLY STARTED
SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 15 AND 25. YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GOT TO START
ON INSUFFICIENT KNOWLEDGE AND YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE
THAT KIND OF COURAGE. AS A YOUNG MAN YOU WORKED AS
A MILL HAND IN A SHOE FACTORY, YOU WERE A SMALL TOWN EDITOR,
A SCHOOLTEACHER AND A FARMER. I WONDER WHICH ONE OF
THESE EARLY OCCUPATIONS HAD THE GREATEST MOLDING
EFFECT ON YOUR CAREER? I SUPPOSE FARMING
DID MOST FOR ME. I WAS A FARMER ALL THE TIME,
WHEN I WAS DOING OTHER THINGS I ALWAYS HAD A FARM IN THE BACK
YARD, IN SAN FRANCISCO EVEN. BUT I GOT SOMETHING OUT OF
WORKING ON A NEWSPAPER. I LEARNED THAT I HAD
TO WIND THINGS UP. I USED TO LEAVE THINGS
HALF WRITTEN, YOU KNOW, BUT THINGS COULDN'T GO IN
UNLESS THEY WERE ROUNDED OUT. TEACHER - I OUGHT TO
SAY I GOT SOMETHING OUT OF BEING
A TEACHER. I HAD TO MAKE THINGS
UNDERSTOOD AND THAT PUT ME IN THE CLASS OF POETS THAT
WANTED TO BE UNDERSTOOD. YOU WERE RECOGNIZED AS A POET
QUITE LATE, AT THE AGE OF 39. IN ADDITION YOUR FIRST BOOK
WAS PUBLISHED IN ENGLAND AND NOT THE
UNITED STATES. WHY WAS THAT,
MR. FROST? IT WAS MORE OR LESS AN ACCIDENT
THAT IT HAPPENED OVER THERE. I HAD NEVER BEEN
DISCOURAGED IN AMERICA, I HAD NEVER BEEN VERY
MUCH ENCOURAGED. I'D HAD SPORADIC POEMS
IN THE MAGAZINES BUT NOBODY HAD WRITTEN ME AS
GOOD A LETTER OF ACCEPTANCE AS SOME PEOPLE
GET OF REJECTION. AND I GOT OVER THERE IN ENGLAND
WITH THE IDEA OF WRITING A NOVEL OR A PLAY TO PUT THE FAMILY ON
ITS FEET, AND ONE NIGHT I SAT ON THE FLOOR AND LOOKED MY POEMS
OVER AND MADE UP A LITTLE BOOK AND TOOK IT IN TO A STRANGE
PUBLISHER AND IN THREE DAYS SIGNED A CONTRACT. BUT I OWE A LOT TO
THE BRITISH FOR THAT. IT MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED HERE -
DON'T KNOW IF IT COULD OR NOT - BUT THEY WERE VERY NICE TO ME,
IT WAS A VERY GRAND TIME I HAD. VERY GENEROUS. THEY PUT ME
ON MY FEET. I CAME HOME FROM THERE
A SORT OF A "MADE" POET. I NEVER HAD ANY DEALING
WITH A BOOK PUBLISHER HERE AND I DIDN'T KNOW I HAD
A PUBLISHER OVER HERE. I ARRIVED ON GEORGE
WASHINGTON'S BIRTHDAY AND WALKED UP A SIDE
STREET RATHER DESERTED AND FOUND A NEW MAGAZINE
I'D NEVER HEARD OF, THE</i> NEW</i> REPUBLIC,</i> AND
IN IT A TWO COLUMN REVIEW OF MY BOOK AS PUBLISHED BY
HENRY HOLT AND COMPANY AND I'VE BELONGED TO
HENRY HOLT AND COMPANY ALL THE YEARS SINCE. I
OWE THEM A GREAT DEAL. MR. FROST, IS TIME A FACTOR
IN THE PERFECTION OF A POEM? I WAS SURPRISED TO LEARN
YOU WROTE A CHARMING POEM, STOPPING BY WOODS</i><i>
</i>ON A SNOWY EVENING</i> IN ABOUT
TWENTY MINUTES. OH, MORE OR LESS,
YES, VERY SHORTLY, VERY DIRECTLY PUTTING
IT RIGHT THROUGH. WOULD YOU
PLEASE RECITE IT? YOU WANT TO
HEAR ME SAY THAT? STOPPING BY WOODS
ON A SNOWY EVENING. WHOSE WOODS THESE
ARE I THINK I KNOW. HIS HOUSE IS IN
THE VILLAGE THOUGH; HE WILL NOT SEE
ME STOPPING HERE TO WATCH HIS WOODS
FILL UP WITH SNOW. MY LITTLE HORSE MUST
THINK IT QUEER TO STOP WITHOUT A
FARMHOUSE NEAR BETWEEN THE WOODS
AND FROZEN LAKE THE DARKEST
EVENING OF THE YEAR. HE GIVES HIS HARNESS
BELLS A SHAKE TO ASK IF THERE
IS SOME MISTAKE. THE ONLY OTHER
SOUND'S THE SWEEP OF EASY WIND
AND DOWNY FLAKE. THE WOODS ARE
LOVELY, DARK AND DEEP BUT I HAVE
PROMISES TO KEEP AND MILES TO GO BEFORE I SLEEP,
AND MILES TO GO BEFORE I SLEEP. IT IS BEAUTIFUL. DO YOU BELIEVE, MR. FROST,
THAT THE TEXTBOOKS ARE GIVING THE RIGHT INTERPRETATION
OF THE MEANING AND SPIRIT OF
YOUR POETRY? FOR EXAMPLE, STOPPING BY</i><i>
</i>WOODS ON A SNOWY EVENING</i> IS DESCRIBED IN A TEXTBOOK
AS A SUICIDE POEM. IS THIS CLASSIFICATION
CORRECT? THAT'S TERRIBLE...
TERRIBLE ISN'T IT? BUT THAT'S
ONE TEXTBOOK. I'VE HAD FINE
TREATMENT ALL AROUND. MOST OF THE TEXTBOOK WRITERS,
MOST OF THE CRITICS IN AMERICA ARE PROFESSORS
AT OUR COLLEGES AND ONE GOOD THIRD OF MY
LIVING HAS COME FROM THEM. THEY'VE SPREAD
MY BOOKS AROUND AND I DON'T READ REVIEWS
MUCH BUT I GET THEM BY WORD OF MOUTH, YOU
KNOW, PEOPLE TELL ME. I'VE BEEN
TREATED TOO WELL. THE BEST AUDIENCE I
HAVE IS A KIND OF A MIXED TOWN AND
GOWN AUDIENCE. THESE COLLEGE PROFESSORS
HAVE TAKEN CARE OF ME. MY GREATEST DEBT IS TO
AMHERST COLLEGE, MICHIGAN. I STAYED THERE A LONG
TIME - DARTMOUTH. THOSE ARE THE CHIEF ONES,
AMHERST CHIEFEST OF ALL. I'VE BELONGED TO AMHERST
IN MY LOOSE WAY FOR 20 YEARS OUT
OF THE LAST 35. BEEN A MEMBER OF THE
FACULTY WITHOUT MUCH TO DO EXCEPT WRITE
MY OWN POETRY. YOU KNOW HOW IT IS IN THE OLD
WORLD, YOU LOOK FOR PATRONAGE - YOU COME FROM THERE -
YOU LOOK FOR PATRONAGE FROM THE GREAT PEOPLE,
THE LORDS AND EVERYTHING. WE GET OUR PATRONAGE
CHIEFLY FOR LITERATURE IN THIS COUNTRY
FROM THE COLLEGES. THAT WASN'T SO
FORTY YEARS AGO, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S
COME ON IN MY LIFETIME. BUT I'VE LIVED ON
COLLEGES YOU MIGHT SAY, AND ON HENRY
HOLT AND COMPANY. YOU ARE LABELED BY
ESSAYISTS AND CRITICS AS: NATURE POET, NEW ENGLAND
YANKEE, SYMBOLIST, HUMANIST, SKEPTIC, ANTI-PLATONIST,
AND AS MANY OTHER THINGS. WHICH ONE OF THESE
LABELS DO YOU CONSIDER...? I DON'T PICK OUT ANY SINGLE
ONE - I TAKE THEM ALL - TAKE THEM AND PUT
MY ARMS AROUND THEM. WELL, WHAT KIND OF POET DO YOU
CONSIDER YOURSELF, MR. FROST? OLD AS I AM, I'M NOT
SELF CONSCIOUS ENOUGH TO TELL YOU, I
LIKE ALL THAT. I LIKE TO BE CALLED
A HUMANIST, I GUESS, PRETTY WELL, THOUGH I'M
NOT STRICTLY A HUMANIST. I'M NOT A
NATURE POET. I'VE ONLY
WRITTEN TWO POEMS WITHOUT A HUMAN
BEING IN THEM, ONLY TWO. ALL MY POEMS HAVE
GOT A PERSON IN THEM. CAN A MAN AS SENSITIVE
TO NATURE AS YOU ARE BELIEVE THAT NATURE
IS ESSENTIALLY KIND? I KNOW IT
ISN'T KIND. MATTHEW ARNOLD SAID "NATURE
IS CRUEL, IT'S MAN THAT'S SICK OF BLOOD AND MAN DOESN'T
SEEM SO VERY SICK OF IT". NATURE IS ALWAYS
MORE OR LESS CRUEL. SHOULD I TELL YOU
WHAT HAPPENED ONCE ON THE PORCH OF A PROFESSOR
- MINISTER HE WAS, TOO? THE WAR WAS GOING ON,
BEAUTIFUL MOONLIT NIGHT. HE WAS THERE
WITH SOME BOYS TALKING ABOUT THE HORRORS
OF WAR - HOW CRUEL MEN WERE TO EACH OTHER AND
HOW KIND NATURE WAS, WHAT A BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY
THIS WAS SPREAD BENEATH US, YOU KNOW -
MOONLIGHT ON IT. AND JUST AS HE
TALKED THAT WAY, SPREADING
HIS ARM OVER IT, A BIRD BEGAN TO SHRIEK
DOWN IN THE WOODS; SOMETHING HAD
GOT INTO ITS NEST. NATURE WAS
BEING CRUEL. THE WOODS ARE KILLING
EACH OTHER ANYWAY. THAT'S WHERE THE
EXPRESSION CAME FROM, "A PLACE
IN THE SUN", A TREE WANTING A PLACE
IN THE SUN IT CAN'T GET... THE OTHER TREES
WON'T GIVE IT TO IT. YOU WERE ONLY TEN YEARS OLD,
I BELIEVE, WHEN YOUR FATHER, A SAN FRANCISCO
NEWSPAPER EDITOR, DIED. WHAT IS YOUR MOST VIVID
RECOLLECTION OF HIM? OH, THAT HE WAS A
LONG DISTANCE SWIMMER AND HE COULD WALK
OVER SIX MILES AN HOUR AND HE WAS VERY
AMBITIOUS IN POLITICS AND THAT HE WAS CUT OFF
IN EVERYTHING TOO YOUNG. I REMEMBER HIM SWIMMING
OUT SAN FRANCISCO BAY OUT OF SIGHT UNTIL HE
APPEARED AGAIN ON A BUOY OR SOMETHING OUT
THERE IN THE EVENING. I WAS WITH HIM
A GREAT DEAL. I DIDN'T GO TO
SCHOOL VERY MUCH. I WENT ROUND CAMPAIGNING
WITH HIM THE YEAR THEY ELECTED GROVER
CLEVELAND THE FIRST TIME. I WAS WITH HIM ALL DAY
LONG ON A HORSE AND BUGGY. HE WAS SEVERE
BUT INFORMAL. HE WAS A REGULAR
FOURTH OF JULY AMERICAN. HE LOVED TO MAKE A GREAT
TO-DO ON THE FOURTH OF JULY. YOUR FATHER, I UNDERSTAND, WAS
SOMETHING OF A DISCIPLINARIAN AND WOULD SPANK YOU
FOR MINOR OFFENSES. WAS YOUR ATTITUDE TOWARD
YOUR CHILDREN AS FIRM AS YOUR FATHER
WAS TOWARD YOU? WELL, I'D LIKE TO ASK MY
CHILDREN MORE ABOUT THAT. I WAS PRETTY MEAN
SOMETIMES, I GUESS. YOUR FATHER WAS
A VIOLENT DEMOCRAT WHO HATED THE
REPUBLICANS. HOW DID HIS POLITICAL
ATTITUDE AFFECT YOU? HAS POLITICS EVER
ENTERED INTO YOUR POETRY? VERY LITTLE. I'M ALWAYS INTERESTED IN
POLITICS, I PICK UP POLITICS VERY FAST IN ANY
COMMUNITY I GET INTO - COLLEGE COMMUNITY
OR ANYTHING ELSE. I'M KIND OF POLITICALLY
MINDED, I THINK, FROM HAVING
STARTED LIFE WITH HIM. BUT I'M NO HATER
OF REPUBLICANS. I THINK I TOLD YOU WHEN I FIRST
MET YOU, OR YOU TOLD ME THAT YOU'D READ IN A BOOK THAT
HE THOUGHT ALL REPUBLICANS WERE WHITED SEPULCHERS,
ALL HYPOCRITES. HE DID. I DON'T THINK THAT. HE BURNED A CAMPAIGN
BIOGRAPHY OF GENERAL HANCOCK AFTER HANCOCK FAILED TO GET
ELECTED AND THEN WENT AND SHOOK HANDS WITH GENERAL
GARFIELD WHO GOT ELECTED. MY FATHER THOUGHT THAT
WAS A PIECE OF HYPOCRISY FOR A DEMOCRAT TO SHAKE
HANDS WITH A REPUBLICAN. HE BURNED THE CAMPAIGN
BIOGRAPHY - HE ASKED ME WHERE IT WAS, HUNG IT UP BY
THE INSIDE LEAVES LIKE THAT, TOUCHED A MATCH TO IT AND THREW
IT INTO THE OPEN FIREPLACE. THAT'S ALL HE WANTED OF
THAT KIND OF DEMOCRAT WHO'D SHAKE HANDS WITH A
REPUBLICAN WHO'D LICKED HIM. WOULD THE WORLD BE BETTER OFF
IF POETS WERE LISTENED TO MORE AND POLITICIANS, SCIENTISTS
AND BUSINESSMEN LESS? I'M SATISFIED WITH THE
DIVISION OF THE SPOILS. ITS ALWAYS
BEEN THAT WAY. POETRY HASN'T HAD MUCH
OF A SAY IN THE TIME OF IT. IN HOMER'S TIME, THE RHYMES SAY,
"SEVEN CITIES CLAIMED THE HOMER DEAD THROUGH WHICH THE LIVING
HOMER BEGGED HIS BREAD". SEVEN CITIES HE
BEGGED THROUGH AND THEY ALL HONORED HIM
LONG AFTER HE WAS DEAD. POETRY GETS
ITS SHARE. IT'S LIKE A VERY SMALL
PART OF A BIG MACHINE BUT RATHER VITAL... COPYWRITER OR SOMETHING
LIKE THAT, YOU KNOW? AND THE COMPLAINT ABOUT
THIS COMES FROM PEOPLE USUALLY WHO CAN'T WRITE
POETRY AND CAN'T SELL POETRY AND THEY THINK THE
WORLD'S TO BLAME. AND THAT'S NOT
THE WAY TO JUDGE IT. POETRY GETS A GOOD
DEAL OF NEGLECT AND THAT'S
PROBABLY GOOD FOR IT. IT'S THE SAME WITH
ALL THE ARTS - THEY GET A GOOD
DEAL OF NEGLECT. ADVERSITY - NOBODY KNOWS JUST
HOW MUCH IS GOOD FOR THEM. SOME PEOPLE THINK THAT
IF YOU'D GIVE THEM PLENTY OF FOUNDATION MONEY
THEY'D BE ALL RIGHT. I'D LIKE TO MAKE A PUN OF
THAT: THEY THINK THE ODDS ARE A B-U-Y PRODUCT,
BUYPRODUCT. IS THE WORLD ANY BETTER OFF
NOW THAN IT WAS 50 YEARS AGO? IF IT IS I'M AFRAID THAT
IT WONT HAVE ENOUGH ADVERSITY IN IT FOR
THE GOOD OF THE ODDS. ARE YOU SATISFIED WITH
THE LEVEL OF LITERATURE FOR THE
PRESENT AMERICA? YES, QUITE SATISFIED. I DON'T KNOW
WHAT ELSE TO BE. I ALWAYS WISH MORE WRITERS
YOU KNOW, MORE POETS - THAT'S THE ONE THING
I SET MY HEART ON. I GUESS WE GET THEM, WE
HAD A WAVE, THEY SPEAK OF IN ALONG 1915-25 - QUITE A
WAVE OF POETS AND WRITERS. MAYBE THERE AREN'T AS
MANY AROUND RIGHT NOW. SYSTOLE AND DIASTOLE
OPENS AND SHUTS, EXPANDS. ARE THE YOUNGSTERS
PROMISING? YES. YES, ALWAYS SOME
OF THEM AROUND. I KNOW MANY
OF THEM. ALWAYS HALF A DOZEN OR SO
THAT ARE GOOD BETS, YOU KNOW. YOU CAN'T TELL
TOO FAR AHEAD, SOME OF THEM GIVE IT UP
AND GO INTO BANKING. SEEMS TO ME YOU ARE
AN OPTIMIST, MR. FROST, AM I RIGHT
IN THAT? AM I AN
OPTIMIST? OR ARE YOU
A PESSIMIST? ARE YOU A
PESSIMIST? I'M ASKING
YOU, MR. FROST. WHICH ARE YOU? WELL, I
HAVE FAITH. YOU HAVE FAITH? IS
THAT AN OPTIMIST? IN MY
LOGIC, YES. WELL, I'LL TELL
YOU ABOUT THAT. AN OPTIMIST HAS HOPES FOR THE
FUTURE - IS THAT WHAT YOU MEAN? YES. WELL, I HAVE NOT ONLY
HOPES FOR THE FUTURE, I HAVE HOPES FOR THE PRESENT
AND HOPES FOR THE PAST. WHAT DO YOU
MEAN BY THAT? I MEAN THAT I HAVE HOPES
THAT THE PAST WILL BE FOUND TO HAVE BEEN ALL RIGHT
FOR WHAT IT WAS. AND THE PRESENT, THIS PRESENT
OF OURS, I HOPE WILL BE FOUND TO HAVE BEEN ALL RIGHT FOR WHAT
IT WAS, THAT IT WILL HAVE MADE ITS POINT IN HISTORY AND
DO YOU WANT ME TO TELL YOU WHAT I THINK ITS POINT WILL
BE FOUND TO HAVE BEEN? YES, I WOULD
APPRECIATE IT. IT WILL BE FOUND TO HAVE BEEN
A DISCRIMINATION BETWEEN... CIVILIZATION
AND UTOPIA. UTOPIA IS JUST A WORD
FOR THE CONCLUSION, THE ULTIMATE
CONCLUSION OF SOCIALISM. WE'RE GOING TO DISCRIMINATE
ONCE AND FOR ALL BETWEEN SCIENCE: WHAT
CAN BE MADE A SCIENCE OF AND WHAT CAN'T BE
MADE A SCIENCE OF. THE BETTER HALF OF THE
WORLD, OF OUR DAILY LIFE, CAN'T BE MADE A SCIENCE OF
AND WE'RE GOING TO SETTLE THAT. IF THERE'S A FAULT TO FIND
WITH OUR TIME - AND IT'S JUST AS IMPORTANT TO DESCRIBE
ITS FAULTS AS ITS VIRTUES - IF THERE'S A FAULT
TO FIND WITH IT, IT'S SCIENCE'S FAILURE TO DO
ALL THAT IS EXPECTED OF IT. SEE, SCIENCE HAS BEEN LED
TO EXPECT MORE OF ITSELF THAN IT CAN PERFORM. WE'VE BEEN LED TO EXPECT MORE
OF SCIENCE THAN IT CAN PERFORM. AND SCIENCE, YOU WILL HEAR A
CONFIDENT SCIENTIST SAY THAT SCIENCE HAS GONE SO FAR
THAT YOU DON'T DARE TO SAY HOW MUCH FURTHER
IT MIGHT NOT GO. BUT RIGHT HERE AND NOW I'M
TELLING YOU THAT THERE'S A WHOLE HALF OF OUR LIVES THAT
CAN'T BE MADE A SCIENCE OF - CAN'T EVER BE MADE
A SCIENCE OF - AND WE'RE GOING TO
KNOW MORE ABOUT THAT BEFORE WE GET
THROUGH THIS PERIOD. THAT'S WHAT IT'LL
BE REMEMBERED FOR. IN THE INTRODUCTION
OF YOUR COMPLETE</i> POEMS</i> PUBLISHED IN 1949
YOU SAID, MR. FROST, WELL, I WILL ATTEMPT
TO MEMORIZE IT, IT'S A MOST REMARKABLE
STATEMENT - YOU SAID "I HAVE GIVEN UP MY
DEMOCRATIC PREJUDICE AND NOW WILLINGLY SET
THE LOWER CLASSES FREE TO BE COMPLETELY TAKEN
CARE OF BY THE UPPER CLASSES". YOU SAID FURTHER, "POLITICAL
FREEDOM IS NOTHING TO ME; I BESTOW IT
LEFT AND RIGHT". AM I CORRECT?
THAT'S WHAT YOU SAID? WHAT DID YOU
MEAN BY THAT? TWO THINGS THERE, I'M BEING
PRETTY FRESH TO TALK THAT WAY ABOUT THE LOWER CLASSES,
BUT I NOTICED THAT I'M MADE RESPONSIBLE TO TAKE CARE OF THE
LOWER CLASSES BY WITHHOLDING PART OF THEIR PAY EVERY WEEK SO
THEY'LL BE SURE TO BE INSURED, AND I MEANT THAT.</i> AND THEN WHEN YOU GO
ON FURTHER WITH THAT, "I MYSELF DON'T
CARE TOO MUCH..." OH, I CARE, I'M GLAD OF ANY
POLITICAL FREEDOM THEY GIVE ME - BUT WHAT I'M INTERESTED
IN IS NOT POLITICAL FREEDOM; I'M INTERESTED IN
THE LIBERTIES I TAKE, HERE AND
ELSEWHERE. ALWAYS. IT WAS EXPRESSED IN SOME
OF YOUR POEMS VERY VIVIDLY THIS PHILOSOPHY
THAT YOU JUST SAID. ONE CALLED THE DRUMLIN</i><i>
</i>WOODCHUCK,</i> FOR INSTANCE, IS ABOUT A MAN MAKING HIS OWN
FREEDOM AND HIS OWN SECURITY, I SUPPOSE YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT. SEE, THE UPPER CLASSES ARE
SUPPOSED NOW TO PROVIDE THE SECURITY OF
THE LOWER CLASSES JUST AS IF THIS
WASN'T A DEMOCRACY. I SEE. WE WOULD BE VERY
HAPPY TO HEAR THIS POEM. YOU WANT TO
HEAR THE POEM? I'D LOVE IT. THE WOODCHUCK'S
TALKING - "GROUNDHOG"
SOME PEOPLE CALL IT. THE WOODCHUCK SAYS, "MY
OWN STRATEGIC RETREAT, IS WHERE TWO
ROCKS ALMOST MEET, AND STILL MORE
SECURE AND SNUG, A TWO-DOOR
BURROW I DUG. WITH THOSE IN
MIND AT MY BACK, I CAN SIT FORTH
EXPOSED TO ATTACK AS ONE WHO
SHREWDLY PRETENDS THAT HE AND THE
WORLD ARE FRIENDS. ALL WE WHO PREFER TO LIVE,
HAVE A LITTLE WHISTLE WE GIVE, AND FLASH, AT THE LEAST ALARM,
WE DIVE DOWN UNDER THE FARM WE ALLOW SOME TIME FOR GUILE,
AND DON'T COME OUT FOR A WHILE, EITHER TO EAT OR DRINK,
WE TAKE OCCASION TO THINK. AND IF AFTER THE HUNT GOES PAST
AND THE DOUBLE-BARRELED BLAST LIKE WAR AND PESTILENCE AND
THE LOSS OF COMMON SENSE, IF I CAN WITH CONFIDENCE SAY
THAT STILL FOR ANOTHER DAY, OR EVEN ANOTHER YEAR, I WILL
BE THERE FOR YOU, MY DEAR, IT WILL BE BECAUSE,
THOUGH SMALL AS MEASURED
AGAINST THE ALL, I HAVE BEEN SO
INSTINCTIVELY THOROUGH ABOUT MY CREVICE
AND BURROW. IT'S A SMUG POEM,
YOU SEE. ANOTHER POEM THAT I
WON'T RECITE TO YOU, I SPEAK OF THE THREE COVERS
YOU HAVE AGAINST TOO MUCH, YOU KNOW, THE
UNIVERSE IS TOO MUCH. FIRST YOU'VE GOT YOUR SKIN,
THEN YOU GOT YOUR CLOTHES, YOU GOT YOUR HOUSE, WALLS,
THEN YOU GOT YOUR FENCES, THEN YOU GOT YOUR
NATIONAL BOUNDARIES. YOU SAID THREE
COVERS, MR. FROST. WELL, I'VE GOT
A DOZEN OF THEM. I'VE GIVEN YOU
SOME EXTRA MEASURE. BUT THAT'S WHAT YOU
HAVE, YOU BUILD YOUR LIFE OUT OF THESE SHELTERS
FROM TOO MUCH. THE INFINITE BEING TOO WIDE IS
THE REASON THE POWERS PROVIDE FOR INNER DEFENSE,
MY HIDE. YOU SEE, IT
GOES LIKE THAT. YOU HAVE SAID
ORIGINALITY AND INITIATIVE ARE WHAT I ASK
FOR MY COUNTRY. DID YOU MEAN THIS
TO APPLY TO POETRY OR TO AMERICAN
LIFE IN GENERAL? AMERICAN LIFE
IN GENERAL. WHAT I WAS ASKING
FOR WAS THE FREEDOM - THE GREATEST
FREEDOM - THE FREEDOM TO
ORIGINALITY AND INITIATIVE. ONE HAS FEARS WHEN THEY
TALK ABOUT EQUALITY BECAUSE I WOULD THINK ONE OPPOSITE
OF FREEDOM WAS EQUALITY. IF EVERYBODY HAS GOT TO
BE OF THE SAME ORIGINALITY AND THE SAME INITIATIVE,
THERE WON'T BE MUCH INITIATIVE AND THERE WON'T BE
MUCH ORIGINALITY. THE FREEDOM IS ONE
OF THE GREAT MYSTERIES. WE USE THE WORD
MORE THAN ANY PEOPLE THAT EVER LIVED MAYBE,
EXCEPT THE FRENCH. WHEN YOU THINK THAT
YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF
LIBERTY FOR EQUALITY, MAYBE YOU WANT TO GIVE
UP SOME FOR SOME EQUALITY, THE DIFFICULTY IS
DECIDING HOW MUCH. BUT THE LIBERTY IS ALWAYS THERE
TO BREAK THROUGH EVERYTHING AND THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT IT
TO DO; IT'S THE BREAKING FORCE. EMERSON SAID THAT GOD WOULD
TAKE THE SUN OUT OF THE SKIES AS SOON AS HE'D TAKE THE
FREEDOM OUT OF A MAN... THAT'S IN THE
BREAST OF MAN. AND ALL OUR
HISTORY IS ABOUT THAT. BYRON SAYS THAT FREEDOM
IS BRIGHTEST IN DUNGEONS, "BRIGHTEST IN DUNGEONS
LIBERTY THOU ART BECAUSE THERE THY
HABITATION IS THE HEART". THAT'S A HARD KIND
OF LIBERTY TO ENDURE. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A COMMON
LIBERTY THAT SETS US FREE TO DO THINGS AND MAKE A
PERSONALITY OF OUR NATIONALITY. I AM AN INTERNATIONALIST
IN THE SAME WAY AS I AM AN
INTERPERSONALIST. I DON'T CARE ABOUT SPENDING
MUCH TIME WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T A
DEFINITE PERSONALITY. I'M THAT KIND OF
AN EQUALITARIAN. I LIKE TO MIX
WITH MY EQUALS - PEOPLE WHO HAVE AS MUCH
PERSONALITY AS I HAVE, AND I WANT MY COUNTRY TO
BE OF A SMART NATIONALITY THAT WILL BE FELT BY ALL
THE OTHER NATIONALITIES SO THAT THERE CAN BE A
REAL INTERNATIONALISM, NOT A CONGLOMERATION, NOT
CORNMEAL MUSH OF THE WORLD. WHAT WE LIVE BY MENTALLY, OUR
MENTAL FODDER IS DIFFERENCES - DISTINCT DIFFERENCES - EVEN
THOUGH THEY END SOMETIMES, THOUGH THEY GO BEYOND
PLEASURE, THEY GO INTO PAIN, THEY GO INTO
WAR AND STRIFE. BUT THE GREAT THING IS
THE BOLDNESS THAT WE SPOKE ABOUT EARLIER,
COURAGE TO GO AHEAD. ONE OF THE POETS SAYS
THAT THE OBJECT IN LIFE IS TO BE "WITH
CAUTION BOLD". BOLD IS THE FIRST WORD; THE
SECOND WORD IS CAUTION. AND CAUTION MEANS ALL THE
LAWS AND THE QUALIFICATIONS AND EVERYTHING
LIKE THAT, AND THE KNOWLEDGE,
THE INFORMATION AND EVERYTHING LIKE
THAT FOR SECURITY. CAUTION
IS SECURITY. BOLD IS FREEDOM -
THE BREAKING THING, THE TRUE LIBERTY. THE BOLDNESS
COMES IN TRUE LIBERTY. PEOPLE WILL TELL
YOU THE OPPOSITE... THEY'LL TELL YOU FREEDOM
LIES IN BEING CAUTIOUS...
