ROB BELL on Deep Knowing, Psychedelics, Jesus, Suicide, Richard Rohr, Pete Holmes & more

nothing would have no Borders or boundaries if it had Borders or boundaries it would be a thing but if I asked you what's everything you'd be like well everything can't have any Borders or boundaries because then it wouldn't be everything so everything and nothing have the same definition that's how I'd answer your question [Laughter] take a little puff now [Music] [Applause] [Music] what's up Ryan Hey man so good to see you here we are you're in London yeah I'm in London do you do you remember me in uh I know you a lot of people interview you do a lot of talks you meet thousands of people but just out of just out of curiosity is is my name familiar to you or yes I remember I was like yeah I've talked to him yeah I know I know him somewhere sometime I know him yeah what's crazy is we spoke basically eight years ago to the day whoa yeah eight years ago to the day and it ended up being one long conversation and then you told me that you had been in a surfing accident and we should connect again the next day like you felt like you wanted to give me a little bit more and so we spoke again for an hour and then the internet cut out at your your place or something like let's do it let's do another round so we basically spoke on and off for like three hours eight years ago and that experience and the things that you said have led me on this crazy Journey which I'm hoping to unpack a little bit with you and that's why the book it just resonates with me like I get it like I get it I get what you're talking about I get what you're trying to say and it all it all makes sense and when I spoke to you it didn't make sense I was hearing you and I was like that's interesting but I don't believe it in the sense of like it was it was too radically inclusive it was too open-minded I I loved it and I was it was not a a disagreement kind of interview but I was like man I wish I could believe that I just wish I could believe that and now I fully believe it I fully believe it and I feel like I've experienced sort of similar profound mystical things that I believe you're you're pointing us towards in this book and uh so of course and I wouldn't expect you to remember it was it was in your mind potentially not generic interview but I do remember there's no such thing as a generic interview I do remember yeah yeah yeah yeah I remember that so basically just wanted to say thanks so much for doing this and so great to see you again yeah I wanted to start a little bit of um just to say to say thank yous you know for for the influence you've had the sort of way that your work has been transformative and uh so inclusive uh in my own thinking and growth and what what I conceive God to be um and it's exciting because I feel like I'm catching you at a point in your life where you're on this new this new plane and this new wave to me it's super exciting and it also makes total sense um so I first of all wanted to say to say thank you this is a way to start this off no that's very that I receive it awesome that's great that's very moving me it's very moving and you've written this new book I got it right here I've got the physical copy made it all the way just in time for the interview I was reading it on the ebook uh where did you park your spaceship and you know it seems like and you've talked about it this total departure from anything you've done but to me I was like the trajectory if this is like the everything is spiritual triangle of you and your journey I was like oh yeah this totally makes sense when I heard the concept of the book and what's interesting what might be a little bit different is the non-specific direct references to Jesus there's no where Jesus can't be found in these Pages the Bible verses aren't quoted but what's interesting is you talked about this thing that I found super profound that Jesus told you to do that yeah I'm wondering I'm wondering if we could start with that isn't that fun to talk isn't that fun to just say that just to say that and just keep going just to be like yeah I just it just makes me laugh yeah Jesus the Christ showed up and was like hey this is awkward you've been telling my stories for 30 years like you have your own stories it's just funny to tell people that with us you know what I mean like just to go just to double down and go straight through like yeah wait what you think he didn't what in the world you know what I mean these aren't the droids you're looking for you know what I mean yeah when you yeah you have a relationship with Jesus the Christ as you said what was his last name his middle name and last name the Christ the Christ yeah when you talk about talking with him and having that friendship what what are you in a literal sense what is this what are these experiences like for you and how would you describe them if you can yeah that's the thing is it smashes to Pieces what you mean by the word literal like a knowing yeah think about how much of your think of how think of how much of the experience of your life that has felt felt most real The Experience had no need to convince your mind it's like I just put it right around your mind went right to the center of your being that we live in a world that has especially the Western Enlightenment tradition has worshiped at the altar of the mind if you can comprehend it then it's real when human history for thousands and thousands of years human beings have understood that the your mind is something happening within you it's helpful here and there regulates your nervous system you can do your taxes but you think about music like you play a song for somebody and they immediately start trying to think of what bands it reminds them of and analyzing it you're like oh God really how does this compare you know I feel like their sound is oh God just listen to the song you know what I mean so it's just so interesting how we actually yes we think and we analyze and we process and we discern but also like how we actually navigate Life Falling in Love you know what I mean well she checks nine of the ten boxes what let me talk you know what I mean yeah and and I this uh profound sense the Christ comes to show us who we are so even that idea like uh like in church world like it's all about Jesus no it's not no it's not that's a ridiculous statement no because Jesus was all about humans being humans he himself would be like that's the dumbest thing ever or even think about pray songs to Jesus singing to Jesus if he was there what would he do in that moment it would be very awkward we you and I can barely get through happy birthday happy birthday to you is awkward who do I look at what do I do you know what I mean you'd be like no no I in my Divinity come to speak to you and your divinity like that's the whole thing so the idea of it keeps someone a child to keep the only Guru who can actually help you is the guru who keeps reminding you Ryan that you don't need a guru although from time to time we need a guru to remind us that we don't need a girlfriend yeah no it's it's interesting and you know there was a thing you said to me all those years back that this is one of the moments of the tidbits that you put into my mind that started to change me what you said you could just tell that there was something that was making me curious to keep my wanting to talk about Jesus to care about Christianity even though I was extremely agnostic and you said you've had an experience with the Risen Christ and I remember at the time being like what does that mean I've meditated on that for years and then it sounds like what you're talking about is this like a literal experience that ineffable experience with the Risen Christ but I'm wondering when you when you meet Jesus when you talk to Jesus which doesn't sound silly at all to me it sounds absolutely awesome what it what kind of like physical state are you in is it a is it a white light kind of state is it a is it on your surfboard kind of state like can you describe it to me because I feel like I've tasted what you've tasted and I just want to hear it in your own words if you don't mind it's always an awareness of love it's like a it's the it's the love that that is actually so free of judgment and shame that you inevitably say things about yourself that are to be Left Behind confessed make amends so it does way more than any judging or shaming could ever do because you see so like you see what's in your Shadow you see who you actually are in the ways it's not a learning it's an unlearning it's not a knowing it's an Unknowing we don't actually need more information we need silence and Stillness and spaciousness in which our true selves shine through and then it becomes very clear oh look at the things I picked up along the way that I can just set down so this idea that you need to get anywhere no stay exactly where you are this idea that there's some information that if you had it no you have everything that you need we just grabbed hold you you we're clinging and grasping to a number of things that we can let go of it's easier it's not it's it's easier it's more flow more ease More release more Liberation yeah I I had this Epiphany I'm wondering if you can relate to it when I've been in these kind of states that you come up it's just I would describe it as meeting pure love in in a way or and it's it's the best everything's going to be okay kind of feeling in the most profound way possible and you never come out of that state and say oh yeah gay people are going to hell or you never come out of that state and you're angry at somebody nobody who describes these experiences come out with Hayden it seems to just tell me it reaffirms sort of the authority to say things so boldly I wonder if that's also you know those experiences really affirm that and you you hear that from other people who can relate to what you're saying well it's only ever about us so generally what we see is the ways in which we have taken what we are most terrified is true about us and placed it on someone else so it's not about fixing them changing them tweaking them anything in that person who has activated me in some way is I can inevitably find it in myself oh you think about a parent every single thing pretty much that the parent could find to be anxious about in the child guaranteed with some Stillness silence and self-inquiry the parent will be able to find that in themselves so do your work that's the gift of the world so so from for many people we see the interior and exterias having a boundary between them so there's the world out there there's the conflict out there and then there's my interior but there is no border between those so if you want peace in some Far corner of the world you do your work and self-inquiry now on your own deepest insides this is how the world actually shifts the whole world is in there interesting and I want to I want to keep unpacking these themes because they would totally relate to the book and but right before we shift to the book which is just it's just it's fascinating you know you talked this experience with with with Jesus meeting the Jesus the Christ and it's like go tell your own stories but you talked you've talked a little bit about the sort of what he's funny by the way he's funny squinking and he's like in on the joke and he's two steps ahead so he's not like blessed is the one who's in on the joke like he's he's winking and he's like seriously dude seriously you're gonna Planet hurling through space at 66 000 miles an hour come on so there's always a lightness it's the only way to get anything that you would call serious the only way in you have to come in through the side door metaphor riddle joke analogy parable uh 2000 years ago a guy owns a Vineyard lady sick and goes tries to find a Healer like that's how you come into this that's how we actually that's how we actually wake up is we don't know we we had a dream what you know what I mean a guy on the subway said to us Cleveland and we were like oh my God you're right like you know what I'm saying like go through and ask people moments when they whatever you call it breakthroughs Transformations you talk people about the deepest experiences of life in which they saw in some new way it's all you know what I mean it's always yeah and I pulled over by the side of the road because there was this thing I heard this song someone gave me a casserole you know what I mean like think about it like you if you were to if you were to tell us how did Ryan become this Ryan and you were to tell us about the past 13 Ryan's on the way to this Ryan it would be the most bonkers there's no plan and it would involve lots of you probably telling stories about making plans that just blew apart but then this other thing emerged so unknowing is actually how you found your way so the the yeah so the Christ is like Jesus the Christ is in on all that yeah yeah and I think his life probably exemplified that in so many ways and just this idea and I'm because fascinating and I grew up in the church um still connected to it in some way don't go in a formal way but I'm you know try to pay attention to what's happening in the church it's obviously very disappointing for me a lot of the times from what I can see from where I am but this idea of you feeling this relief and burden to be like I'm going in a different direction and I'm not I didn't feel like a burden you didn't the heaviness though perhaps of the last 30 years of engaging in that world trying to perhaps Make Your Mark in that world and then realizing that you were ready for a change and you had been given this permission what was can you talk a little bit about burden or maybe I'm misinterpreting what what you were saying about it it's always felt it's always been like an endless exploration always felt like following that which can't be named arranging my life around it and see where it goes wondering awe has but wondering always been the engine so it has not felt like departures as much as just obvious next steps it's never really felt like well no there are there have been moments of but the moments were never the the moments that would whoa this is new always had with them like a permission giving like could it be this good and all the standard wobbles and fear and trembling of uh is it good can be terrifying for many of us it's it's very easy to develop a a lens of cynicism if something's good that it's too good to be true as opposed to what's good enough to be true so for many people the good arises within them and asks them to them to follow it and instantly the guard goes up what's the catch as opposed to yeah of course the universe is a place of great love it's been expanding for billions of years it's on my side of course it would be a wondrous thing to be a human being and so it uh this what you're specifically speaking of is just this awareness that I had been doing a particular thing in regards to God Jesus Bible involving babies in bath water involving and that's a like you think about that in in history that's that's is a role like a textual the cleric The Scribe the that is like a role people have played to to speak to a tradition and to interpret its text people have done that for a long time that's like a job yeah at some level and for me this moment of God I've got all these my computers full of all these different stories and like yeah but you know I have a thing I do and it was so generally this wonder and awe that arises within you and this curiosity and this exploration will generally call into question some something you've constructed about your sense of self and identity and that's just a fluid that's just a thing you need to set that down well I'm uh okay maybe you were last week you don't have to be this week you know what I mean like identity is just a thing it's just a thing you make it's just a thing you made up you can you can make it up and you can take it apart you don't have to be you are the CEO that's nice you want to go like work at Target great go work at Target what you did that now you want to do this okay you are a chef now you want to be an accountant fine you're an accountant you want to be a chef okay like this once you're in on it once you're in on it then you can Ryan can do it where's Ryan want to go next yeah and I'm see I'm excited by that and I see where you're going I'm like I'm gonna I'm gonna emulate this because I'm into it and I believe in it and because you're being you're being led by love and you're being led by this open-heartedness to sort of like Believe In the Journey but I think I've seen I've I've there was somebody you interviewed by someone actually related to this book and he said something in the in the preamble to the interview and it kind of made me think this thing is like oh he was a he was a pastor I believe he's still in the church and he was like you know we all wish that Rob was still in the fold like fighting the good fight for us and I feel like that sort of this thing that has sort of perhaps been put on you that you've probably shied years ago but someone like me who it has a distance from institutional Christianity still is fascinated by the people inside fighting to right the wrongs to get rid of all this harmful [ __ ] that's been put around Jesus's story and name and you were one of those guys for so many people for so long and it's not that you're not doing that work it's just how do you feel when people say well I wish Rob would just be like stay within it and fight within this the nastiness that's Arisen in Christianity how does that make you feel oh that's just like the most boring thing ever I've ever heard I have no horse in that race I don't even know what the person is talking about I just I just if I was looking at my laptop screen it would just have that Apple rainbow death wheel it would just be like [Laughter] whatever that's fine that's fine do whatever you want so it's okay so let's yeah like the good fight yeah I don't even need to know anything more that's your fundamental premise like the fight well you're already in trouble well that's then so that's notice how my how the mind works well guess what it's gonna feel like I'm gonna feel like a fight fights are exhausting I used to go I used to go to this boxing club with uh the great Frank Perez Jr this former pro fighter like he trade for years he trained me and one day I got in the ring with him just got my ass kicked I mean just I couldn't get anywhere near him I did not hit him once and he just tagged me like once in the head and I was like God this this is the work it hurt I just rang my bell literally like just whoa so like fighting you know what I mean like like if so just notice how you like yeah if that's the if that's the story you're already in trouble totally and in the book where'd you park your spaceship I noticed this very interesting reference of Mary and it's a center where the birth is but the character the lead character the protagonist Heen doesn't really know what that is in reference to and oh yeah like yeah as a very interesting way of being like does Christianity exist and I think maybe that's an interesting place to go from here was that was that a little a little nugget to be like people don't know what Christianity is here and I love it yeah I love how he and he like when at that one point when vo hands him that thing and there's an actual voice and he's like is this a phone so I'd love that there are no cars no phones and he'll like he calls classical music Horse music because he heard that it's made by a bow that comes from the tale of four so so what I love is the is like Generations later what endures of a culture and how people get like bits and pieces of something like wasn't your didn't your uncle play for the Dodgers um he yeah he worked at the stadium in the six like these like the way that people give fragments of a thing that happened um you know what I mean like how things filter down I don't know why they call it a whatever why do they call it a ferris wheel I just you know what I mean like was there a guy named Ferris like think of how many why is it Murphy's Law who was Murphy what happened to Murphy that the one thing we the law we have from him is the [ __ ] goes left you know what I mean like so that's what I love in the book is how Heen every once in a while he does like uh I don't know why I don't know where that is or what that I think it's called this or he's a little bit fuzzy on some of this stuff yeah so there's a there's a Mariana Charis birth and death I don't know I don't know where that comes from but that's just what we call it which is how we are about tons of stuff that at one point had all this meaning and such you know what I mean yeah so let's actually just in case if anyone's listening to this and hasn't read the book yet like just that just to set it up as it's obviously very dense and complicated to explain this is a post-earth world uh yeah the Earth was brown bald we we're now seeing sort of the human race and maybe other maybe it's not even a human who knows what it is but it's it's a human it's pretty much humans hanging out pretty much a couple animals it's a post the Earth has been destroyed by sort of unfettered capitalism and and climate change has destroyed it and people have escaped and so we're talking about that kind of future that's what we're describing here when we're talking about sort of the fragments and what's left over yeah and the journey that these people go on this idea came to you sort of like as a wave just it just hit you as inspiration and it just it would not Escape you until you sort of like pour it out of you this I'm wondering just as a creative you the creative me the as well to a degree it's just like what that experience is like when it's like I have to write this and I have to dedicate my whole being to put this on the page what what is that experience like when something hits you like that in in the creative sense yeah stories yeah it's like uh it all it creates its own rule of life like Okay so how am I this is how am I gonna arrange my life so that I can be true to this it's almost like entering into a relationship with it and uh so yeah life gets yeah my life's it's very it's very simple it becomes a very simple life there's a couple things that I'm making and so other things sort of recede into the background and so what you eat sleep move the body so that you can be clear and fresh so that I can make the next thing so it was it was there have been other books and then there were teachings and then uh tours and so so I have been doing this for a while and it was like a Fidelity to it and then there's also like a holding it Loosely because some ideas you give them some things come in and you give them a lot of energy and then one day ago God this is rubbish like there are books in my computer that just never came out because they're just like yeah I don't know what that was you're just so you just get very used to putting lots of paint on lots of pieces I got all these paintings I've done surrounding me so I'm thinking these paintings like some of them are just rubbish some of them I really like and so anybody so if you're gonna do this then I don't know what the batting the average is but I um in my experience you don't just sit down and make something great you just keep making things and then over time some of them are like yeah I'm gonna I'm gonna put that out you know that one it's like it makes you smell just hold it it's so so the answer to your question is there there is a paradox at the heart of it where you give yourself to it and you hold it Loosely at the same time that's how I would say how it is like this is literally what I'm doing with my mind and body and soul and spirit this is I'm arranging my life so I could make this and yeah who knows where who knows who knows you you you might have emailed me about doing an interview or you might have been like he's got something what he's got 10 pages in and be like he's lost what is this this book sucks tossed it in the recycling and went on with your life you know what I mean you have no idea you have no idea to be received or I just know what it did in me I just know what it's doing in me so it's very very intimate and personal yeah and on that front so it's interesting right because if you were to kind of describe like what the book was is roughly about in the past if you said what if love wins about what is everything you could you could say a sentence and be like okay but is this is that the whole point is that you you don't really want to say what it's about because it's personal to you but the idea is just the reader should take whatever they want out of it which sort of makes it sort of a different sort of thing or are you able to say this is the gist of what I would describe this book as well I could tell you some of the story but what it means or what it I don't know what's it mean to you that's that's the [ __ ] of it and and I spent years my work was here's what I'm telling you here's what it means let me explain it here's what I just explained to you here's another way to explain it there's a third way to explain it here's a way you could think about this and here's a way this can shape actual ways that you live every day oh by the way here's how to explain that here's what I just told you by the way can I just tell you to you again to make sure that you understand you've seen the same so part of so going back to you maybe three questions ago story does for me have a Allure and it's compelling for lots of reasons but um one of them is I spent years explaining so part of the what your your question you're asking about Jesus the Christ is like hey do you just want to be done explaining because that's a thing that's fine that's fine it's great good what a great chapter but you don't have to you don't have to it's like Ryan that thing you were doing you don't have to you don't have to explain everything and actually maybe for the rest of your life to get or wherever maybe the next chapter you know explain anything like look it's look at this look at this thing what it like this painting what the heck and I love it I don't know what it is I don't know why I was dropping this these different blotches of red and the higher I drop them the more it thrilled me I don't know I don't know you know what I mean or my wife was like hey she got a new uh cutting board in the kitchen she's like hey do you want the old one it's like of course I'm a field one you know what I mean the old one or this like this thing right here look at this like I go to the lumber yard and there's this bin of free lumber and I fill my backpack with these chunks of wood and ride my bike home and then like make stuff with it and like see what I mean man like explain it what [Laughter] no and I I love that especially with art and this different way of sort of putting out things and it's like it's like artists don't like to explain the songs because it's like if I tell you what I was what I was literally going through it's not going to be that mind-blowing thing that makes you think of your your wife or your relationship right and yet telling this story I've had like you were just talking giving an overview I've had more personal Global ecological economic discussions like like this book the conversations I've had people about this book have been of a completely like a like a kind of intimacy and connection and love and political climate consciousness like how we love each other you know what I mean so you surrender all that and then what it to to follow this story that ends up saying more than anything I've ever said before which is what a number of people have said they're like oh you like think you like walk you think you're doing something different here man come on do you know what I mean yeah because like you can see the themes of of your work the sort of thinking to the Future where we're headed with all this what it's all about the ideas of of suffering and how that affects our life choosing where to go and um the company we keep and what I love about it one thing my favorite part about it is is the teachers teens teachers and it just made me realize it's like you know I I started this off by saying you're you're one of these people who like you know the teaching the thoughts you put out there were really influential in making me think deeper about things but one person that the last time we talked I didn't even know who this person was and I came afterwards I realized I was like oh man I could see the the connection between you and his work and that's Richard Rohr um who I think is is such an amazing sort of deep thinker on all the issues that um that I see flowing out of this book mysticism and non-dual thinking and just an open-heartedness to all traditions and Faith tell me about Richard rohr's sort of influence on you and your thinking because I feel I feel like he must he must have played a played a big role at some point I do remember foreign belongs is that the book it's a book of his I remember 2000 I don't know when that book came out but uh two thousand when I was early 30s probably early 30s coming across his coming across him and actually I remember I remember thinking oh now this is a village Elder they eat that uh I had been talking to a physical therapist who said that he was traveling in India and in The Villages he was working at in India he said the older people got the more loose and limber and flexible they got and I remember that just was so like not my image of Aging in America at every level not just physical but like and with Richard Rohr I I I distinctly remember it was like a whole new world opened up of growing younger as you grow older like opening up like expanding as you as you are old so that even raises questions what even is time what even is aging but you know he so for me my experiences of him and becoming friends with him was a was about his life how he lived how he lived like this is somebody like like there's a vitality and a curiosity and a and a like open of evolving expanding sort of presence that was like what was what's he 60 70 72 74 like as I just like oh it was like it was like a whole new oh that's the that's that's what we're doing here got it got it got it got it yeah it was very very yeah huge huge I find it to be such a important thinker and I think the way he talks about God and Jesus are just to be so trippy and mind-blowing in all the right ways and there was a thing he said that sort of sticks with me like sort of one of the things that really can like I guess you know like ground me and and see I see a trajectory in my life and this whole idea of like including and transcending like you would include and transcend and I see that as sort of themes in in your work as well and like I said our experience last time like yeah what's why would I hate Muslims like what's wrong with Muslims I know Muslims they're amazing loving people why would I be against transgender I would be fighting against gravity and in the process of doing that in my own life and you know that's what's helped me to transcend and I'm wondering too sort of your comments on that idea of in your own life including and transcending and also of course the themes in this book of this character who's going around and and meeting all sorts of different people and letting their sort of his experiences sort of like seep into his own heart and he just gets bigger and it just turns him into this this very very dangerous in the right way kind of person like he's just fearless and so I wonder this idea of include and transcend and maybe you've seen it in your own life and see it kind of pouring out in your work does that does that resonate with you as an idea yeah you can't be at odds with yourself and you have to own every square inch of your story so it's not like you leave you are you continue to transcend but you you continue to to to expand and move forward but you also embrace all the pieces that came before and yeah so all of it played a role all of it helped shape me into who I am so there's a sort of deep gratitude and so anger about that or I'm embarrassed because I used to think that or shame because I look at me I was just an idiot what was I was so air like all the ways we can beat ourselves up don't really get us anywhere interesting so there's a Grace and love that we have for ourselves otherwise we're split we got these bits and pieces that it's like that thing when someone you went to you run into somebody you went to college with and like remember that time we and you're like oh God please don't you're me like what are they gonna bring up and am I gonna be like so embarrassed as opposed to just doubling down yeah I was just a [ __ ] that's a great story I remember that yeah instead of flinching you know what I mean instead of that awful feeling like they're gonna bring up something that is the last thing on earth I want them to bring up um you smile and you lean into it and you go yeah and then people like the way I mean if you wish you would have been a better parent or you went through a horrible breakup in a relationship or you made a bunch of choices that really affected other people that those sorts of things can haunt us so this work of now it all belongs make amends where you need to uh in the Dao to Ching to talk about the master goes into what's difficult um cleans up the mistakes and it's all part of it it's all part of it yeah yeah otherwise yeah otherwise you're at odds with yourself and then you have to take that tension and pain and usually just put it on someone else they're the enemy they're you just find another person to point at when it's actually your own Terror about yourself yeah in the process of some sort of transcendent experience you you use the words in the book I highlighted a deep deep knowing that some of the characters sort of arrive at and how would you how would you def would you would you define that deep knowing because I think it's kind of related to all the things we're talking about and I think yeah yeah that authority to speak so confidently on these issues and just you're you know unflappable in terms of these thoughts you have about big issues uh you're learning that your thoughts and emotions feelings senses and perceptions are all things that are happening within you that there's a u an infinite indestructible you so if I were to say point to Ryan and you were to point to yourself I said no you're pointing to your body so for most people their body is body is the outer boundary of the self and then the question is what's happening in the body is there a soul is there something Eternal Immortal is there a spirit Etc but your body is actually made of cells about a million cells are dying a second your body's also creating new cells that continue to make use so your body is actually coming and going if you and I met eight years ago we actually had different bodies then so your body swaps itself out about whatever seven eight nine years every seven eight nine years you get a whole new body so right now your body and my body our bodies are actually coming and going part of our body is dying and fading another our body is also regenerating so when if I were to say point to you you could point to your body I'd like no you're pointing your butt your body so as opposed to you Ryan is not something happening in Ryan's body Ryan's body is something happening in a larger Ryan so the one thing you know for sure and everybody listening to your podcast knows is that there's somebody here having an experience there's some sense of I and there's some sense of I that is being but you can't the one thing you know for sure your body itself is coming and going so that's not stable that's just like a the thing happening within you so as you become and this is just actual observations that we all can agree on so as you become more grounded in what a self even is you realize that the thing that you know for sure exists which is there's some I having an experience and I having an am an I am can't be located in any physical material tangible day so your thoughts are arising and then passing your emotions sadness anger so Joy euphoria so all of these experiences that you know to be your Ryan life are happening within this I am-ness so even the sense of time speeding up and slowing down um people talk about an event just took forever another event flew by so if there is a you that can observe time speeding up and slowing down then there's a u that's outside of time otherwise you wouldn't be able to observe time and it's passing this how are we doing so far yeah with you so there is a Timeless Eternal infinite indestructible actual Ryan within which all of these experiences are happening so essentially when people use the word meditation meditation is simply the intentional resting in the you who is observing all that is arising within you so this will completely change your life because then as opposed to for most people their experience of the sense perception emotion or feeling is so completely bonded to their sense of self that I am angry I am the anger that's all there is right going on right now anger as opposed to oh look I got a lot of anger about that observing and noticing it um oh no you are learning to notice all that is arising within you and not attaching to it it's just a thought it'll come it'll go like other thoughts most and then if you ask most people do you have a negative voice that runs constantly in your head and it's quite judgy and shamey and kind of makes you miserable well then you are learning to observe that voice and not take it seriously just let it say whatever it's going to say and what will happen over time is you'll get better and better oh here comes that voice again here comes that voice telling me I'm unworthy oh look at it you begin to laugh at it you begin to see it simply as a voice within you and what will happen over time is that voice will go away yeah no a history of the awareness of awareness in like 90 seconds and I mean that's that's sort of the the clue to it and I think you know I we talked about this like interaction transcending experience and you know meeting the Christ which talking to Jesus which some people might hear you and think you're crazy I hear you and be like oh cool like I can relate I wouldn't describe it in the same way but I totally get what you're talking about and I was saying like when you you talked about that coming to that understanding a lot of people get there through through meditation there's also a big conversation these days about sort of like drugs and psychoactive drugs and psychedelics yeah natural products where do you stand on that I'll cut this out if you want me to put in but do you do you dabble in that realm at all is it something that's been fruitful for you oh yeah absolutely for a lot of people plant medicine yeah yeah plant medicine can um or yeah psychedelics like oh this is what the monks were talking about got it and a lot of times the monks are like yeah you can take this you can take the elevator if you want but we're just there so you can have that experience with your friends out at Joshua Tree you know what I mean that's great um oh yeah and you're gonna you're we're just gonna have a a wonderful explosion coming as all this becomes legal and people even right even even just some of the like Johns Hopkins some of the research on psilocybin and Trauma literally people healing from PTSD but those experiences yes these experiences for me have been absolutely extraordinary are you just talking about anything blowing dabbled with or it's not something you like to get into so that's not dab yeah I don't use the word dabble oh Dobby can you tell me a story I'm totally open I would love to hear it I would really love to hear it and like specifics the more specific the better ah maybe sometime yeah honestly it's so God what's the word my experiences have been so healing and sacred and uh what is the transformative that uh and I I see how you know when somebody tries to push something on you and Hypes it that some things are so powerful that unless they call to you know you know what I mean like they um they call to you and then you follow that so even the the I had a number of experiences of people like almost like what's the word like you're missing out man you gotta you need to but I was like I was on the receiving end a number of that that I was like oh I'm never gonna do that because that's a terrible it made me like to just get out get out of my face um so I I that's why I'm not like Mr salesman because I'm like oh I just there's a smile and a nod like with you like yeah yeah I'm trying to be more transparent in my life and in these conversations and things I've only I've I've only gone as far as weed and I'm telling you rob like the most on the smallest amount I'm talking about like half a puff I'm telling you meeting God itself and oh well yeah my friend there's a whole Buffet but you can but what I'm saying and see but that's why I I do I dabble in it very irregularly and I swear what you just said really resonated me it's like you I feel something so deep in me like it's time to like think think about these things yeah in a new way and I feel the exactly how you described it like called to it like once every six months once every three months whenever I just feel something we could call it Spirit we could call it whatever that just calls me to it and I think what I've been wrestling and that's why I just like that you're kind of affirming in your own way this sort of like sacredness of it is you kind of start to worry that you're like oh it's because I was high or oh how do you can you talk oh yeah a little bit about Distributing those experiences because uh any altered state so um there's I live at the foot of a mountain and I was hiking yesterday or the day before like any altered state that puts you in it puts you in uh that that kind of space it's uh it's fundamentally non-addictive the last thing you do is want to do this again because you have experienced something that then asks you to integrate it and put flesh and blood on it so that it becomes more how your life is more connected more loving more aware more firm and fierce so um in my experience what happens is you you taste and it see something that is then like okay now how does this almost like leak or how does this saturate every day it's like that's night so if you stay to so if you stay too long on top of the mountain you're in trouble yeah you're on the top of the mountain you hear what you need to hear then get back out of the valley and start you know carrying water and chopping wood absolutely and I don't you know who James Finley is he works with Roar as well he's um works at this CAC about that name I think yeah I think you'd love him I interviewed him last year and it was a really great experience and I asked them kind of this question a little bit and he said something that you kind of reiterated there a little bit this idea of it can be a very transformative experience but it should be sort of grounding you in the concreteness of your own life if you're only using an escape and I kind of heard that a little bit what you said and I totally agree with that from my own experience that it makes me want to be a better friend be kinder to my parents and sort of in that pure sober state so it's nice to hear that but it's so easy to dismiss it and not want to talk about it in the sense that people will um but of course leading into sort of being able to do that in a sober state is also exciting to feel that same feeling the the remnants of it are always there yeah and that's another another thing is creating another in like oh you gotta do this or you're gonna I just I that's why I always just hesitate is like oh yeah you're missing out if you would you know what I mean just create another group of people who are like we get it you don't we'd have these I just um the the concept of the book like a post-earth world you know these days especially is a premise in which is not only interesting but believable to so many people um and I'm wondering if you see this post-earth living on interplanetary world is like a foregone conclusion that we're headed in that direction maybe not foregone conclusions a bit too definitive but is it where you see everything headed and is it part of sort of your spiritual sort of thinking on what's next and how to think about life itself you know yeah no I don't uh no I don't and that's why the book I I can see how in some ways what the book is doing is taking this very real fear that is in the air and the book just goes well let's just take worst case scenario the book is worst case scenario happened which which I I think is a a very very compelling take your worst fear and then put yourself it happened put yourself put yourself after it happened um what does that do to your attachment to the fear and the ways in which we have these horrible terrors and then we keep bringing them up for very good reason but is there a degree to which we keep them alive that person is a nasty horrible bully that person is a nasty horrible bully that person is a nasty horrible bully at what point am I creating am I participating in creating this by the very thought structures that can only see them as that um and I mean just think about the shock and outrage of the algorithms that man is a dangerous dangerous man that man is a dangerous man that man is a dangerous man I'm going to click another article about that man being a horrible man hey look at he just won do you know what I mean like to what agree to all the people who are repulsed by this man helped participate in this man coming to power or whatever situation it is uh it's fat we despise these things are repulsed by these things hate these things and can often become so attached to that thought emotion sense perception that we actually keep it in play so it was really interesting because the story started to to unfold oh at some level what I did was take my worst democracy democracy as an experiment I mean even just this democracies had serious serious threats the past few years like real serious threats well just go ahead down the road it's an experiment it failed take the worst so in the work that I do with people oftentimes when I sit across from somebody and I'm taking them I'm asking them questions people come to me with a question they're stuck on something and then I start asking them questions and we watch them get unstuck but what's interesting is how many people have a something that is present with a fear that is within them and it's never been spoken because it's too it's too terrifying to actually speak it so I can I think of a woman this summer who you could see it you could just see it on her and so and there's a group of people um so I invited her to speak the truth and then she said because she's she's more Curious and hungry and learning and growing more than ever and she is married to somebody who kind of fine with how things are and you see her Terror and it's just building like there's like no release valve for it so it's just like the lid is on the pot the pot you know the water is starting to boil so I said you can just how about just say it and you could see her like what the and then she said my marriage might not survive and it was like a full body like relief and release you know what I mean like I've just and that's neither here nor there just saying the most terrifying thing and realizing oh I can say that and I'm still here so you can see how this thing is like haunting her it's like it's the it's the thing in the shadow we that is that we don't say that we don't say that we don't say that we don't say that's the beauty of comedians that's why comedians have such a profound role in our midst as they go oh really you got issues with your body oh really you got weird stuff happening in your head about sex oh uh race you're white I'm black I'm black you're white like oh you you think what you know what I mean they just say it that's the job the job is to say the thing that everybody has been holding down and they say it and there's like this whoosh you know what I mean there's like this explosive cathartic thing that happens because the they said Bill Burr this there's American comedian named Bill Burr basically says the thing that everybody has agreed you're not allowed to say and he's genius because he knows and everybody goes oh it loses its power because he just says it and he's still up there on stage with the microphone like you know what I mean totally so it's interesting right because I think the the work that you're doing is just this idea of being in present right and enjoying the Wonders around us now and enjoying life and finding a way to sort of you know have purpose as the characters in in these books are looking for that purpose and understanding what they're here for and what they're good at and all that so this the anxiety that is taking over the world in some ways about is the earth gonna end and what's next you're not necessarily perhaps preoccupying yourself with that because that in some ways is such a distraction from the here in the now is that true are you are you kind of getting caught up in these anxieties about it's getting bad I just know so many people who are growing their own food and buying less clothes but clothes that are made by companies that are working to make the entire production line sustainable and people who are like there's just so many great that Patagonia just gave the company to the Earth the first company that was is now owned by the Earth essentially like they're just down the street from where I live like I just knows and so many people were never thinking about any of this and now are like people are living there like putting solar panels on their houses and living off the electricity of the Sun and countries are like like there's just so much massive explosion of awareness around these issues think about just think about uh the organic food section at the grocery store it used to be six things now it's a whole corner of the store the entire grocery industry in America looks to see what Whole Foods is doing so it may be more expensive but the whole industry is looking at how to do organic and healthy um and people are realizing that we have completely missed out we don't know what things cost we just want cheap food well then we pay for it in our health care System so people are realizing oh actually slightly more expensive food is actually far more affordable because of all the other ways we pay for it so you even have people going what is cost yeah so you have people going I used to think that that shirt was too expensive but I bought five shirts for that price and all of them I wore out in two years yeah so maybe I should have just cried once and bought the shirt that was more money because it would have outlasted and I would have ended up wearing it more than those five and I'd still have it and still love it so you just have people realizing that cost itself and the obsession with the free market about making everything as cheap and possible actually has ended up costing us way more so so the idea that the whole thing is going off a cliff I don't know I just not I just see so many people doing so many interesting new things um so but I mean I don't know if you were just reading CNN the outrage machine or if you were just if you were literally just reading the news you would have a completely different view because the news isn't the news it says it's the news but it's not the news so I got a couple wrap-up questions are you cool with them yes let's go let's wrap them up okay how we wrap this up who knows but I got a couple yeah yeah I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about this and you mentioned comedian it was the perfect segue but through my um you know knowledge of you and being into your work I became a huge fan of Pete Holmes and you know I listened to his podcast I've listened to you guys speak for hours and hours on that and him coming on yours and I think you guys met on his podcast and I just it's just a general like talk to me about your relationship with Pete Holmes and how he's you know as a friend but also such a spiritual guy and I love listening to him talk about life and suffering and all the things that we're talking about and that you write about tell me about your relationship with with Peter oh yeah he's my neighbor we chop it up I literally in a couple hours I'll go to the farm that there's a local farmers market and we usually see each other there on Thursday afternoons oh there's a good chance I'll see him in this afternoon yeah we'll sit we'll sit we'll sit around or we'll yeah we'll shoot the breeze oh yeah that's my guy we did actually when the book came out we did a thing at at this club in Los Angeles and he asked he like we had this discussion slash interview about the book but man he asked such great questions and it was it was just wonderful so I see her I literally will see him around like in the car and stuff what's up has he helped you grow and expand in thinking and stuff because I know he's a deep thinker and I'm sure he's challenged your thinking in terms of like how he sees the world he's a very you know opinionated guy and obviously very eloquent when he when he talks is is there anything about your relationship that you've seen in sort of you know having a really yeah when we first became friends uh that was two thousand so I had the world that I came from I can see now how the world that I came from there are certain things that everybody's agreed not to talk about whether it's politeness whether it's the Democratic nature of a spiritual Community where like we're all in this together but ever so subtly there are like you I don't know how to explain it but every tribe every culture every system every family system has like this is what we talk about this is what we don't and health essentially learning to talk about all the stuff we don't talk about but when I met Pete and I noticed on stage but but actually just hanging around my house or just at our just us being friends Whenever there was something that would come up that was like culturally or even personally like I don't almost like yeah we don't you know we kind of move past that the the comedian that's like red meat for the comedian the comedian goes why why don't the comedian goes right in that like that tender place and it's like why why don't we talk about that what do you mean what like they just they just come to life like a little red light starts blinking on their dashboard and and then they talk about it and Riff on it and yell about it and vent and you're laugh you're shocked and you're laughing and but you're laughing and it's like a release valve for the soul so yeah Pete yeah because I came from like teacher world like this is this pattern this is how this and Pete came from just turned the mic on I got divorced here's what happened here's who I had sex with here's what happened with mushrooms I hate this I despise this I love that I think you should try this um it was it was it was really a gift to me it's really to me there was this one there's one quick thing this the spiritual thought that he said I'd love to get your quick take on it if if you don't mind um he was talking on his podcast I think he was quoting someone else when he was talking about this thing about like we have to be good so that God is good and to me that was very interesting maybe like pan-enthiest type of thing to say in a way that God is in everything and we are sort of God moving things forward or something is that what is that does that idea bring true to you in any way or is it interesting to you to say we have to be good so that God is good thoughts and ideas aren't as interesting to me as they used to be um even something like a topic so so we generally are obsessed with all the experiences we're having I had this experience you had your experience so so for most of us our fundamental lenses separation I have my experience you have your experience you can also move to the wholeness of a universe that is one and there is Ryan having his experience I can also see Ryan is a uni experience the universe is having I am an experience the universe is having it is one and then it manifests in particulars just for the sheer Joy of it so robelle's experience the universe is having Ryan is an experience the universe is having and when you do that then I stopped comparing and competing because oh look at the good that came Ryan's way look what Ryan's good at look at the unity if I begin with unity this gets much more interesting so then you could is the the universe is God witnessing God like it just all gets much more interesting and that's just so so then the discussion so then what you're talking about just becomes far more interesting or is the divine when people use this word god generally when people use this word God they're talking about an object they're talking about and the object generally is like a super powered version of humans generally believes like as a bigger version but is stronger and more powerful but it's an object among objects well I don't know what people mean by this word God but I would say generally I think people are trying to get at Ultimate Reality they're trying to speak of that of which nothing greater could be conceived well the word generally then as practiced is people are talking about an object among objects things among things a super a being among beings bigger stronger wider Eternal whatever but still am being among beings I simply would see it completely differently if I had to actually think about it um what is it that things arise out of the universe itself objects it would have to be something that wasn't an object would have to be something form less because these are all forms colors shapes sizes books ideas even have form so if there is Ultimate Reality one way to think about it would be it would have to be some sort of formless empty spaciousness somewhat in many ways it's the starting point of Buddhism it doesn't begin with an egoic structure surrounding an object who wants to be worshiped and send you out into the world to spread that it begins with an empty formless spaciousness then an unknowing you can't the mind is just checks out at that point so I I tend and and then think about all the Great Moments in Ryan's life your life when you the moments of guidance the moments of peace the moments of transcendence generally there's a Stillness and a spaciousness that is free of thoughts ideas it's uncluttered the mind has shut down and it's just pure being and out of that something arose so so most of the time when people use the word God I don't know what they're talking I kind of I I don't relate because my understanding is is the thing after the thing thing under before that's just all much more compelling to me and real and uh yeah you can even see that like you can see this in the profits you can see this in even Moses is like keeps like you can't make it it's even you can see it all sorts of different ways like yeah he can't make statues can't make carvings you see people go no whatever it is whatever is Ultimate it doesn't it doesn't have shape doesn't have form so that's why when people just go okay we won't make statues we'll just make doctrines you know what I mean we'll just have just thoughts that are essentially just objects that we just no it will have to be something spacious certain sort of emptiness that is actually no thing because nothing is if you described me what nothing is it would have nothing would have no Borders or boundaries if it had Borders or boundaries it would be a thing but if I ask you what's everything you'd be like well everything can't have any Borders or boundaries because it then it wouldn't be everything so everything and nothing have the same definition that's how I'd answer your question [Laughter] you get to take a little puff now you want to light up I will light up it will go viral let's go viral no but you you made me think of another question but I'm afraid to ask because I really don't want to I want to let you go if you have to go but you just do one more okay so it's non-dual thinking right comes up in the thing and I think Western Christianity I can speak of my own experience maybe you can relate it just wasn't really a part of the conversation that I really learned this whole there was a right and a wrong and a black and a white and uh when we talk about suffering right and there's a lot of suffering in the book in where'd you park your spaceship and how that sort of flourishes another thing but there was a moment that jumped out at me where you basically say that Heen sort of recognized suicide for the first time he understood it for the first yeah yeah yeah I'm just like fascinated and just emotionally distraught by this idea of suicide because it's like in my life suffering has led part of these transcended experiences you are and I are talking about and that trajectory makes absolute sense and it works out for the characters in this book so far I know this is part one it seems to have worked out in your life it absolutely worked out in my life because my life is awesome despite all the trauma all the suffering right it's like but so many people it's too much to bear that suffering yeah and the lights go out and I know you put that line in there and it just it really you know I don't know what it's I know what it's like to get it although I don't I've never had that thought that I want to do it but so many millions and millions of people do it how how do you how do you wrestle with that and yeah that makes sense yeah but if you could if you could talk about that I would I would love that and the way that he ain't like he doesn't say it it's he just says it like he does it doesn't have yeah yeah called into question the whole thing yeah yeah and you think about we all we all nod our heads with the phrase unconditional love something within us unconditional love yes you know what I mean even like yes it speaks to some tender intimate vulnerable place within us like yes unconditional love but unconditional love means I love you if you're here and choose to stay here and I and I love you if you go uh and it speaks to whatever this experience this Incarnation this appearance this Ryan who showed up at this time and place some Eternal Essence some boundless soul that chose to get in the body and come to wherever you are you know what I mean um it also speaks to something within us knows that this run we're having here this 77 year run or 16-year run or 102 year experience something within us just goes yeah we'll have this experience but it's not like that's it you have to you have all people for thousands of years were you here before in some other form and you came back and this you where do you go like this has been a human like we've never stopped feeling this and talking about this even all of the alien stuff is like just this consciousness do not tell me that Consciousness is limited to this space-time continue in this body even my dad died in June and I have had a communion with him and his spirit more intimate and authentic and sometimes it feels like them when he was alive like I get I get him I get us I'm poor grateful even the weirdness between us I has like a Transcendent include to it so he weirdly died and then was closer than ever so I just going to your thing about life and death actual actual Resurrection means you come to see the even life and death themselves they are existing within something larger who knows so it makes the whole game so fascinating that makes what's with the game so rivety that makes it so like like mysterious and compelling and yeah I think there's no thought that makes me believe that there has to be something after this than to be like people wanted a way out reality was too hard for them and I no longer see it through that lens of a selfish act I know in many cases I know there might be some cases or or like an old school you know destructive Christian thinking of well they got to go to hell for doing that or some sort of punishment for that that there must be something after that because reality was that cruel to them and they needed out and whatever's on the other side you know has to be better I have the Hope and Faith that that has to be better um you um as a last question because I could literally go all day and the sun's starting to set in L.A and um you said this thing and I actually wrote it down it says what's possible here um and I think that to me is sort of this a motto in your life it seems to be in your creative Spirit your optimism for the world you just you said it and it resonated with me and how I try to approach the day what's possible here and I'm wondering if you could just speak on that sort of saying and just if you know how you stay optimistic despite all the the stuff that we kind of talked about all the hardships of life is it this idea that there are things that we can create there are things that that I can do to sort of you know make things better for myself and those around me is that the essence of what you might have been trying to get at when you said what's possible here I don't have any interest in optimism that feels like just another way to arrange your mental Furniture as opposed to pessimism though those two as I I don't I don't whatever that is I just have simply observed lots and lots and lots of people who when you sit together and you take some deep breaths and some long exhales and you practice a little bit of self-inquiry or someone like me just asks you questions about where you're at and what's next and what you're noticing I've just sat with lots and lots and lots of people and watched them get clarity like oh oh yeah I think I'll do this next yeah I got a Next Step here I've always thought about a farm or a pizza place or a Therapy Clinic or a what going back to school for that or like I just watched thousands of people get still and quiet who are very frustrated and felt stuck and then listened to their life with perhaps a little I hold up mirrors like essentially and like show so you can see but I just observed people go yeah I know ex yeah that's who I am oh yeah and notice a thread through their life and oh I could do yeah yeah I could do that I got it I can see that that's that's what that's what I'll do next it's a very calm grounded Wonder in awe about who they are right now in this moment and what's inviting them to take a step in that direction so it's not like a like when you asked about the earth and the climate crisis it's not alike how do you think about where it's headed it's my observation of people right now waking up to the beauty of the world and new ways to care for it so it's it's embod it's just for me it's embodied so that's why when you're talking about thoughts and ideas that's great that's fine discussions are nice I just am my what interests me is what's happening events in time and space so am I optimistic well I just keep watching and running into people who are alive and stepping into new Futures and it's pretty pretty amazing what a game Earth School what a wonderful thing to be a part of where is it headed I have no idea I just know I'm gonna talk to my friend Chris after this and guaranteed he'll have some new thing he's thinking of or doing and it'll be thrilling to talk to him and then meet up with my friend Steven at one and he's been like I'm a mentor to me and I'll see something new because he's just got like all these gifts to give me and then I'll go to the farmer's market might run into Pete Holmes and I'll you know what I mean I'll go to my daughter's volleyball game after that and she's figuring out how to be an athlete I'm so happy to be along for the ride that's how I see it what a wonderful thing that we get to do this and of course it's painful and of course there are tears and of course there's suffering and of course and then you do your work and you realize that a lot of that suffering was because you you were thinking like you do the work and you find a piece you find a piece that was there the whole time and it's like oh that's how that works and then you take a puff or you go up on a mountain in a hut and try some new plant something and the heavens open up yeah that's that's just and then you go for a mountain bike ride and go for a surf and write another book and paint another painting there you go it sounds like you're living the good life thank you so much for this time Robin talking to you great question for the inspiration and keep keep doing your thing and um my pleasure I'm very grateful for all you've done and given so thank you so much my pleasure [Music]

Channel: Ryan Kohls

Views: 7,559

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Id: U7rhplILAIg

Length: 83min 13sec (4993 seconds)

Published: Fri Oct 06 2023