Rob Bell Love Wins

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] no now better hi I'm mark Tyler I'm the publisher of Harper one which is an imprint of HarperCollins and I wanted to welcome you all here tonight all of you who are here live in New York and all of you around the world we've learned that we've broken a record for online attendance to an event for livestream so thank you for all of that it should be quite an evening we get it right exactly you want to especially say thanks to the faith community leaders that are here university leaders seminary leaders who are here and and online joining us and a couple things sort of ground rules first we want to encourage you all here there live tonight to ask questions there will be a period a good portion of the evening for you to ask questions and then certainly all of you online to ask lots of questions will be picking and choosing from among them that come in throughout the evening so don't hold back and then third both both Rob bells new book Love Wins and Lisa Miller's book heaven are on sale here tonight and you'll hear more about that at the end but you will be able to get both copies tonight and get them signed or not wait in the line and you have them pre-signed if you don't want to if the lines too long but we'll talk about more of that in the end and for everyone else around the world who isn't here tonight the books are on sale everywhere and we encourage you to run not walk at HarperCollins and go buy them so first tonight I wanted to just introduce our esteemed journalist and author also HarperCollins author that's lisa miller of newsweek she's been the award-winning religion writer at newsweek since 2000 and she regularly reports and writes on spirituality and belief in the intersections of all those things with politics and sex and all the other issues of our day lisa lisa helped to launch one of the most innovative and and one of the largest online global conversations about religion called on faith which is run by the washington post she wrote and published the book i just mentioned which is just now out in paperback i'm holding it up brand new hot the press heaven our enduring fascination with the afterlife Entertainment Weekly says a brainy engaging book what Miller ultimately concludes may surprise you it does surprise me she before she was at via the at Newsweek she was at the Wall Street Journal she was at The New Yorker of the Harvard Business Review and Self magazine Lisa lives here in New York and with it with her husband and they have one daughter and then for a guest of honor this evening the brand-new book again hot off the press Rob Bell who many of you know and I suspect is the reason that many of you are here there's a little video that was leaked about two weeks ago you might have seen by now lots of others around the world have so say God is you know I'm gonna read a quote first the New York Times calls says Rob bill Vala is a central figure for his generation and for the way that EV angelical czar likely to do Church in the next 20 years he's as many of you know the founding pastor of Mars Hill Bible Church and grabbed Rapids Michigan he's author of five books Love Wins as his fifth book most notably before this is a book maybe many of you read called The Velvet Elvis he's also appeared in a series of best-selling short films called numa's Rob and his wife live in Grand Rapids and they have three children so without much more delay I want to introduce them both to you come on out guys thanks for being here everyone where you gonna stand up and talk you're gonna get a little small sermon I'll do that I just wanna get comfortable no it's nice hi everybody so great that you are here it's such an honor and privilege to be with you tonight just a few things before we get rolling I believe that God is love and I believe that Jesus came to show us this love to give us this love to teach us about this love so that we could live in this love and then we could extend it to others the first people who heard this message responded with well now that's good news and I believe that was a joke I believe our world desperately needs good news when you hear the word Christian what words come to mind when you hear the word Christian do you immediately think oh yeah the people who never stop talking about God's love for everybody or do a number of other images and associations come up and I believe there are moments when we have to return to our roots and we have to acknowledge that perhaps in some ways we've lost the plot along the way and that we need to return to the simplicity of God is love and God sent Jesus to show us this love that we might know this love that we might extend this love to others now I uh I never set out to be controversial dramatic pause I actually don't think it's a noble goal I don't I don't think I don't think that God honors it when people set out to be shocking or dangerous or provocative that my interest is in what's true and where is the life and where is the heart and what inspires and if that happens to stir up a few things which I'm told it does from time it's a time that's something I accept but what's interesting to me is the conversation what compels me is that for thousands of years people have been conversing about what matters most the Bible itself records this cacophonous conversation you have laments and you have poems and you have people arguing with each other you have people shaking their fists at the heavens you have people hearing you have people speaking you have people singing you have people writing letters you have people recording what happened you have people passing along all of these fragments and all these ideas and all of these words of encouragement and hope and conviction and and and so like when you gather here it is an ancient holy thing that we are doing when we take part in this conversation that has been going on across the ages I have lobbed a book into this conversation which releases tomorrow but I throw this book into the conversation with this awareness that it is it is one more voice and that every voice matters when we are talking about the things that matter most and so in some ways I'm not saying anything new these ideas and these discussions and trying to wrestle with these questions and come up with answers and explanations that might actually give us life and help guide us and give us hope and help us know God better and be more sort of authentic followers of Jesus this is something that's been going on for thousands of years and I celebrate it and the fact that you are here tonight and you are in on the discussion I think is a beautiful thing are you with me now so thank you okay hi Rob hello according to polls 81 percent of Americans believe in heaven and according to a poll that Newsweek did ten eight or ten years ago seventy percent of those believers think of heaven as a real place by which I think they need a location a geographical location so I'm gonna pose it to you is heaven a real place a geographical location that is not right here where we are right now I think heaven is a real place I think it exists I've sat with a man last year who was a couple days from dying of cancer he'd been fighting serious cancer for years and so he's moments from taking his last breath and he kept saying it was very very clear lucid he kept saying if only people know if only people knew if only they could get it well what the peace and joy and the stillness and calm with everything being all right is available it's available here it's available now I just wish people and his body is like moments from saying I'm done so my experience has been we bump up against this reality and all the time and and we bump up against people who are experienced in it do I think there's a place with like streets of gold and everybody has a Ferrari that probably has more to do with cartoons than it does with anything yeah so I like in the Middle Ages the monks made maps with heaven somewhere right like somewhere on the map like over there or down there yeah could you can you is there a secret door is there a way to well that's what I find really fascinating is Jesus turns the whole discussion outside because he comes from a very sort of first century Jewish worldview and he keeps insisting actually God is interested in restoring and renewing this world God made a world and God calls it good and so the fundamental story that sort of unfolds as Jesus may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven so he speaks of it as sort of a real place your Father in heaven and those who are in heaven and yet it's always heaven and earth becoming one so as opposed to how do we get there his interest is endlessly how do we bring there here which brings up not so much different sort of discussion so if heaven is something that happens at the end of time and it is some other dimension that touches us on earth as your as your person who was dying described yeah intersects with us we have time to tell you where are the souls of the people I love who are passed away right now the assumption is because physical bodies are buried that they are in some ways didn't disembodied so you have soul you have essence people have used all sorts of words for that but they are nevertheless real conscious alive others say no everybody who's sort of gone is asleep and at some moment in the future it'll be this great sort of hey everybody wake up I'm putting the earth back together there's endless sort of speculation about that what do you say I say there's endless speculation actually actually I think it's very important it's very important when you're bumping up against to not turn your speculation into dogma and I think we've seen a lot of that which is people going okay this person's there this person's there this is how this unfolds and it's like we have no video evidence so I think it's very important for people of faith to yes I believe in heaven yes I believe it's real yes I believe it is somehow intermediate with this reality and yet separate in some sense from this reality and how exactly all of that works out I I don't know but I know within each of us are very very profound longings I think those are longings for something I see us Louis you don't really long for something doesn't actually exist and then beyond that there's a point at which we are now firmly into mystery and speculation and let's enjoy that sort of speculation but with someone like drives our stake in and says no it's this great that's what you think let's get right to it shall we you have been accused in a lot of the coverage of your book of being a universalist and the universe listed theological terms means everybody gets to go to heaven everybody's allowed to go to heaven that means Buddhists Hindus you can reinterpret my definition of Universalist when you want it when I'm done asking the question good as Hindus Jews atheists I'll get to go to heaven are you a Universalist know if my Universalist we mean there's a giant cosmic arm that swoops everybody in at some point whether you want to be there or not and this is why couple years ago I did a wedding and the father of the bride made it really clear that he despised the groom in in a number in a multitude of ways and so in the ceremony when he walked his daughter down and it was that moment when the father of the bride hands the bride off to the groom he said she's yours yeah in front of everybody which was total like you know we all just kind of feel the love in the room this father of the bride single-handedly cast the most oppressive dark cloud on the whole occasion because parties are terrible when there's somebody there doesn't want to be there so if by Universalist we mean love doesn't win and God sort of coops the human heart and says well you're coming here and you're gonna like it that violates the laws of love and love is about freedom it's about choice it's about do you want to be here because that's what would make it heaven if you're there and you don't want to be now do I think all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds with all sorts of labels will be yes I think having slowly surprised and I think Jesus brought this up again and again and again he told all sorts of stories about how all the people who are supposed to be in might be out and the people who are out might be in this was central to his teaching like uh be careful gods are the name of surprise that's not actually a verse but I like it this belief of yours that we're all gonna or you know good people well fine what's what gets you in here's what I begin with this I begin with the reality of Heaven and Hell right now greed injustice rape abuse we we see how on earth all around us all the time so I begin with these realities here and now and we actually see lots of people choosing hell we see oppression we see tyranny we see dictators using their power to eliminate the opposition like literally with bullets and guns and fire so we see hell's on earth right now there are those that we sort of create our own and then there are those we are the somebody else's that sort of spills over under X so I'm an atheist say and I'm an atheist who gives to the poor and helps a little old ladies across the street and spends all of my free time in charitable works well in heaven the essence of grace is Jesus saying left to your own we are all in deep trouble we have made a mess of this place we're all sinners no one has clean hands so the essence of his gospel was trust me I'll take care of it just trust me now how exactly that works out because he's unbelievably exclusive he says these things like I'm the way the truth and the life no one comes with the Father but through me he says things like if you see me you've seen God so he's very exclusive he's also fantastically inclusive he says things like you know I have other sheep says things like there'll be a renewal of all things he says I'll be lifted up and draw all people to myself so he's like he's like in exclusive that's a word I just made up and so I think what happens is especially for followers of Jesus is there is sort of his exclusive claims that are often at the expense of the other things that he says which are be careful because I'm doing something for everybody and how exactly that pans out that's God's job right so this sort of universalism that you're preaching that's exclusive has offended some people who call themselves more orthodox than you but I'll tell you something that'd be a great name for a move them by the way and actually mainline Protestant friends and we can get into that in a minute have a big conflict with the word Orthodox and people claiming but this there is something in here that offends me and it's not the universe the sort of Universalist part and it is what you just said which is that Jesus is the mechanism yeah through which we all will get there yeah okay so I'm Jewish yeah and my relatives many of my relatives died in Europe from being Jewish mm-hmm and they would be appalled to think that their salvation was dependent on Jewish I'm Jesus because they died for being Jewish so are you sure that Jesus was the mechanism well if I would say this in the Torah when Moses strikes the rock and water flows from the rock that is a beautiful story of people who are thirsty and we're told that through Moses God provides them water then later you know I'm going with this I do Paul was like oh yeah that that water was Christ but he speaks of this Christ who is the Word of God who is the animating force of the universe he he he broadens this way way wide and then he and almost no commentary he just says God has been rescuing people who redeeming people for thousands of years we see this throughout history and then he sort of lets that just sit there so that means that the Bible itself creates all sorts of space there now of course the Christian answers your question with yeah I live in they're gonna get there and they're gonna find out that it was you know and like oh right there's some magical little Jesus mechanism that happens that that is a great question and I think it is most important for a Christian at this moment to be incredibly gracious and generous and say he comes and he says I'm showing you what God's like I came to make the Torah speak I came to show you compassion I came to show you generosity came to show you how to love your enemies I came to show you how to make a better world does he may have a problem with that no great and he does say things like very divisive sort of your he also says things like if you're not against me then you're for me he is a paradox he is within himself there's tremendous tension and we've been trying to figure that out for thousands of years okay do Creed's matter in terms of getting to heaven like if you say certain things things like if you get like these eleven things in a row or if you get these you make a certain kind of declaration once a week or every day or if you yeah I think Creed's are very very helpful for lots of people because they sort of take a confession of faith and they put it in a succinct form and I think there is great life there but then you have other stories like in the Gospels it's all over the map these guys lower their friend down through a hole in the roof and Jesus says well because of their faith to the man your sins are forgiven well what's that well man named Zacchaeus says if I've taken anything from anybody I'll give it back and Jesus says today salvation has come which is a player word says his name but if you actually read the Gospels people receive this grace they affirm this they experience this in as many ways almost as there are people so yeah speeds are terribly powerful do I think that if you say certain things every Sunday that somehow magically does something no I'm getting to this question that through history has been called the faith versus works versus worth question right do you get to heaven because God can evenly beside Jesus because God is mysterious and great and supernatural and can do God is God or do you get to heaven because you've helped the old lady across the street and because you've given to charity and because you've taken care of the poor and because you care about this thing I think that at the core of faith is trust it's Chuck and I would see his childlike very intentionally childlike trust that God is good and that ultimately we're okay and I think that is a simple beautiful pure thing that can be complicated ferociously by all sorts of intellectual categories of scent and affirmation and I think out of that experience out of that awareness that life is a gift that this next breath is a gift that we are the recipients of this absolutely unbelievably pure thing called life like Heschel said to remember I think that's what we do and out of that out of that gratitude and out of that love you naturally want to share this with the world so you actually do help the lady off the street not because you think this gets you something but because you are aware that you already have something that's worth the universe and out of that who doesn't respond with yes I will help that lady across the street how's that oh it's good do you think it like that yeah your book has been even before anybody read it your book was criticized as being a radical it seemed to me that a lot of the stuff that you write in your book is stuff that other people have written before I mean I mean that in the nicest way yeah actually in the purpose I say this isn't there's nothing new here so tell me what's so controversial about it I guess other people could answer that better I think that grace and love always rattle people as soon as you say that perhaps this particular little club of people who have decided they're the Orthodox ones as soon as you say I think it might be a little wider than that you're threatening whole systems you're threatening whole ways of thinking and that's that's threatening I guess what I'm asking is aren't you just a mainline Protestant posing as an evangelical like aren't you just I mean now that we're talking about labels to be honest with you that the Episcopalians have been saying for 50 or 60 years great do I make some claims to originality no do I think that I am evangelical Orthodox to the bone yes and I actually think that orthodoxy is a terribly wide diverse stream I think that's the real question here okay is the endless religious sort of compulsion to say you're in we're in you're out you're and to constantly sort of narrow it and all of that and I think that vibrant real historic Christian faith is wide and leaves lots and lots of room for lots of varying perspectives and when people say how can you say that lots of people have said that and they're firmly within the sort of Jesus tribe it's very diverse and wide and that's okay that's actually part of its strength it's actually part of its life and vibrancy that's why it's so beautiful to me and evangelical means like good news it's an announcement of good news it should be a buoyant joyous hopeful thing people who want nothing to do with Christians could say the things you're talking about and the way that you're living and moving in the world that is that's good news I think we need to reclaim that is anybody with me now come on Agustin san agustin in the City of God with this wonderful description near the end of the City of God about what happens to her by what our bodies are like in heaven and he was very tormented by this question because resurrection was so problematic for the earlier Christians because so few people believed it and so he went into this whole thing about you know we're gonna be thirty will have will be more beautiful than we were in life but we wanted to listen and he lost but you know if we have scars the scars will have gone away and if we're fat will become thin and four to thin will become fatter and like he's extremely great and detailed and I guess I'm wondering what do you think our bodies look like in heaven well see I am so deeply shaped with heaven on earth uh-huh I'm so deeply shaped by do your will be done on earth as in heaven so so so my sort of consciousness around heaven is so shaped by the idea of a restored renewed earth / heaven and I love the fact that in the resurrection accounts Jesus friend Mary sees him and thinks he's the gardener which I think it's a very Jewish sort of wink-wink nudge-nudge garden Genesis you know yeah I think it's like a like sort of bob and weave in that so how old people are and also so interesting in the resurrection accounts which have all these sort of awkward differences in them one of the things that comes to is people who apparently spent years with Jesus don't recognize him Mary thinks he's a gardener is this road to Emmaus story where he sort of does this like that guy you know and they find out you know their heart hearts burn within us so so the people who are closer to me don't recognize him until he speaks or he breaks this bread so there's some sort of essence that sort of transcends your physicality there's some sort of essence to each of us and then how that manifests itself in terms of physicality who knows how we'll need to pick like okay welcome to heaven pick and get like pick 17:30 do well it seems to me that resurrection is really central to this whole thing because there are those who would say that if you don't believe in resurrection by resurrection they mean not some permanent essence existing in eternity but you your physical body yeah that's what happens at the end of the world your physical body joins your soul yeah in the renewed heaven on earth that's that's the way it's not yeah so it seems to me it is for me resurrection is the hardest part of the whole thing yeah yeah cuz I don't really get how that works and it sounds to me like you don't really get how it works either I think Christian this this is important this is why the discussion is so sort of great yeah great and interesting compelling what I do think is really important about resurrection as resurrection says that this world matters and I think that was so unbelievably crucial about resurrection is this it says that this world matters and that God has great value on this world and has great desire to alleviate the suffering in this world and so the sort of resurrection as a floatie sort of this is how we evacuate and go somewhere else to me resurrection is information of the goodness of this world it's about dirt and sweat and sex and vineyards and it's it is an earthy affirmation of this world is good it was created for you to enjoy it and an effort and in the rescue thing is going on through Jesus to reclaim all of this and and this has everything to do with how we actually live in the move in the world it is not about evacuation it's about one in six people in the world don't have access to clean drinking water it's like almost a billion people and I think resurrection is a belief and a hope and should be this beautiful sort of let's get them drinking water that's part of the goodness of this creation is it serving what we need to survive was in it and that's where I think it is unbelievably important now exactly how tall short wide then who's you know you do mow lawns really naturally trim that's a fascinating but maybe not the center of the discussion okay maybe not but but I'm hoping that because it is so central to yep faith and and the theologian NT Wright said to me you know in the Bible they talked about resurrection and if they meant some wif T going of soul somewhere else they would have said wif t going of soul somewhere else yes body you know coming back to life from the dead yes the idea yeah and there was this whole group of people who are like it's almost like the gospel of Ricky Bobby that just happened to me like there was this dramatic sort of and if you I'm so look at sociologically large groups of people don't generally have massive changes in belief like that that just does it so something did something happened I also think in our modern scientific sort of in some ways closed world like the things that happen have to be able to be measured with the five senses we have access to or they didn't really happen I what the resurrection does is confront this with wonder and mystery and miracle it confronts us with maybe the universe is way stranger and weirder than we thought and I like that I like that I like leave me all of the space to say absolutely over-the-top unbelievably hard to explain mysterious miraculous things happen deal with it and I the resurrection forces you to do that and I like that anybody else I think I'm gonna start taking questions from you all so I think there are people with mics is that right or so why don't we start and then I can ask more questions and then you guys can ask questions and we're also going to have some questions being fed to us rather the internet hi let's say hypothetically I'm an atheist and I don't want anything to do with God would it be loving for God to put me in heaven if I didn't want to be with him if you're an atheist would it be loving forgot well I begin with God is love and love demands freedom and God gives us what we want and for somebody who's like I want nothing to do with peace joy reconciliation forgiveness generosity really really good food in wine I sort of just beginning a very sort of simple level I believe God gives us what we want if someone's like no way I don't want that then Gaza okay okay but it yeah sorry can I just interrupt for a second isn't that completely self-interested isn't that like you know I want wine you want beer I want Chinese food you want Indian food like what does that have to do with God what does God care about Indian food or Chinese food or wine or beer I mean isn't heaven about being with God yes but once again I would bring it back to everyday sort of things as a pastor I see people make unbelievably destructive choices and when sort of it is laid out you realize that you're miserable you you realize that this choice is you yourself have said I'm an agony the people around you are like dying watching you do this and the person says yep yeah and I'm going to keep doing it there you know I need and anyway I mean I'm serve any of us if I need to get the whole intervention saying whether it's drugs or something you know what we all love you so much we're begging you to consider a difference now I've seen that over I think we all have where you see the hardness of the human heart and it makes no sense people cling to a path that is destructive they're hell-bent sometimes we say and it is a fundamental mystery of the human heart why we would see and you can even say you know that you choose this way it will be joyful and it will be satisfied and it will be yeah I know what I'm gonna do this and so we see that around us all the time so I just begin with I see this around us all the time and I assume that sort of choice ability option continues on into the future now your whole question about Chinese food you haven't think about okay this is from the University of Pennsylvania who are joining us online chaplain Charles Howard asks this is an important conversation for Christians to have but in an interfaith environment like a university how can you envision this conversation being introduced God's love eternity heaven hell are challenging enough topics to broach internally with Christians what about all the others well there is a common good that we all long for so that discussion continues to go on where we all agree like with peacemaking friend of mine keeps saying how come universities don't have a peacemaking major like how do you make peace how do you make peace among different ethnicities how do you make peace across sort of geopolitical bounds that is a project we can all work on together ultimately at the heart of the Christian faith is this Jesus who keeps talking about being a servant so the ultimate impulse that Jesus keeps bringing up is not okay here's how you'd get everybody to think like you do what you want them to do it's how do you serve others so what does the world mean and what do people of other religions need how can you serve them how can you bless them so his call was endlessly even like washes his disciples feet it's just very sort of humbling your task in the world is to serve and then that brings about a very very different discussion because we've seen lots of Christians who are like we're right and our job is to show you how we're right so you can be right with us I think Jesus was far more interested no you humble yourself and you serve and that opens up all sorts of interesting discussion that's a really good question yeah I have a question specifically about Matthew 7 and what would you do with the passage that talks about specifically why does the road that leads to destruction and narrows the path that leads to life what would you do with that passage I think it's a great passage because the things in life that matter take incredible intention I think it's a passage ultimately about intention and about the power of devoting yourself to something and to somebody so let's take marriage marriage doesn't take much work at all it's just like you get along with this person fantastically a year after year no I mean let's be honest if there's like a thousand ways sometimes it feels like a thousand ways every day for marriage to broad as the paths negate all of the different ways that it can really unravel to where somebody's on the couch and so for it to work takes extraordinary intention it is a narrow way it is saying we are going to devote ourselves to this and we are going to not give up and you're going to work at this over and we are going to persevere so it first off as at a basic level athletes who train there's lots and lots of distractions Kierkegaard said that a saint is the person who wills the one thing so so narrow is the way Jesus I think is speaking at all of the different ways we lose the plot on what it means to be human so there was a very real political climate that he lived in and a number of people said the thing we are to do as faithful people of God as we are to pick up swords and we are to fight the Romans and he's like okay the sword thing we've tried that let's reclaim what it means to be a light to the world he takes them all all the way back into their history which was a narrow way so I think it works and the beautiful thing to me of Jesus teachings as they work at all of these different levels their fundamental truths about how the world works they were very clear warnings and teachings and guidance for people he was interacting with very real people in a real place who had real struggles and actually when I recently preached that at our church and I told the story there's this freeway at our church near near where our churches and when you get on the freeway the traffic is like flying and you have this really narrow way to merge and if you don't merge and get over to the left really quickly and you take your life in your hands every time or you end up going to miss Keegan and you don't want to go to me so I did this whole thing on Broad is brought is away - Muskegon I'm trying to recreate which I'm realizing now is an inside joke and sorry here's a question from Ben from Ohio I been through hell is there a hell and if not does that take anything away from the cross I actually I actually think there is hell because we see hell every day yeah we can resist and we can reject what it means to be fully human and good and decent and compassionate yes I think there is and we have that choice now and I assume we have that choice on into the future yes thank you van right there oh hi you know touched by kind of the understanding that God is love and I think I can really kind of understand and grasp oh god I feel like I can reach out to him and interact with him in that way one of the things that a question for me it's a that kind of it's hard to get over is that this God is love kind of like the interaction of acting now and doing these love acts and finding God in that way like does God become the act of love just an action or is God an actual being does the understanding of God as love kind of take kind of removed him from being a real being that it's a great question now at the heart of the the Jewish understanding of the world which out of which the Christian understanding emerged is that God is both a divine being sort of separate from creation but also moving and present within history so like the Exodus King David the Scriptures endlessly speak of actual history real people in real places in real times encountering the divine so sometimes what happens with God is God becomes a sort of esoteric man for some reason with a long beard and a white robe and a cane sort of detached from human history and then to talk about divine things is basically sort of to leave everyday world you know I mean and and think about some realm but but the scriptural consciousness is God at work in history and actually the Christian story is God at work and history and coming among us there's a great book by Abraham Joshua Heschel one of the great theologians God in search of man and and I would add woman but this beautiful idea of the God who pursues people in history and so that speaks to each of our the experiences you've had when you had the sense that you weren't alone the this Spears's you've had the moments when you had a total coincidence but later you were like I don't know that felt like more than a coincidence that you heard of you heard a song and the song struck a chord within you like the world's okay or somebody said something to you and it was just an offhanded comment and it was a kind nice comment but later you realize that that one little word like it lifted you up and it carried you for a day hell you know what I'm talking about there's the this this sense this sense you have almost like this radar that keeps pinging then I think that's God God in search of people and it is an experience that people have witnessed you for thousands and thousands and thousands of years there's a question there's a question from the audience dr. Ron wah born Dean of the Alliance Theological Seminary and I act if you absolutely Ron is here and brought friends hi hi Ron my seminary in my stream that I come from is very focused on the Great Commission yes and and hopefully with the Great Commandment as we go but if we lose the concept of hell and I'm not sure I understood do you believe that hell first of all is a real place or is it just hell on earth and if we do de-emphasize the doctrine of hell what does that do to the motivation for Christian mission that's a great question first time I think it's very important to talk about Hell because I think it's absolutely crucial that we come face-to-face with the power of our choices like we we we can choose the way of compassion the way of forgiveness the way of generosity or we can choose other paths and those have very real consequences in the world so I always begin with this is absolutely crucial and then in terms of Great Commission central I love the Jesus saying go and make disciples baptizing or immersing them in the father son of the Holy Spirit and there's one way of seeing that as the father son the Holy Spirit is immersing them in a Trinitarian community so go out and announce this good news to people proclaim God's love proclaim God's rescue effort in the midst of creation the God is pursuing people and then invite them into your community where they can experience the love of God as it is shared and passed around and extended to each other yes so say it out like in our church we often talk about the good news is better than that whatever you have there's actually a chapter in the book on that little book thing right there that that there is a story it is being told in human history and Jesus invites us into this story and then to share the story with others and I think that's absolutely that's at the center of it and actually I think the real challenge for Christians when it comes to witnessing evangelism is do you actually think this is a great story and so we actually at our church have classes where people just sit around and talk about their story like let's talk about what you've been through let's talk about the hell you've been through and what happened when you encounter grace like there's a couple in our church who I think they had four or five miscarriages like like 24 25 27 - and it was absolutely excruciating to watch them go through this wasn't the plan and so they started a group for couples who are trying to get pregnant in camp and had no sort of curriculum had no sort of thing just let's get in a living room and let's tell our stories and the stories that have come out of just that group of God's grace meeting people in extraordin very sort of despair and suffering and we say that's a beautiful beautiful thing let's tell that Jesus story over and over again it's beautiful yeah excellent question um I actually have a question that I'm just thinking about right now from your answer to this question so bear with me as I try to frame it and it goes like this you say how is based on bad choices based on choices we choose not to help the poor we choose not to help the sick we choose to lie we choose to oppress other people we choose to gossip but it seems to me that there's another hell - which is the hell not of your own name right right right someone else's choices or bad stuff that has yes yeah the book of joke I mean he was trying to be a faithful person yeah and bad stuff kept tapping to him over and over and over again and it seems to me that historically at least heaven has been a way out for people who are in a hell of they're not of their own area it's a radical reversal of justice I am in this terrible situation now but in the next world I will not have cancer I will not be poor I will not be a slave I will not be oppressed in this way can you talk to me about hell or heaven without this idea of choice just the bad stuff that happens to people the first thing that comes to mind is how much great art has come from that long like think of the songs that were sung by slaves like swing low or we sang a song a couple weeks ago over my head here laughter there must be a god somewhere so this longing for a better world or for some other place that with where there are no tsunamis is a human ache that has been with us since the beginning and a lot of our thinking of heaven comes out of God please tell me this isn't the last word please please tell me that this doesn't endlessly go on this way please tell me there's some rebirth there's some rescue there's there's something that breaks this thing that we're in yeah and and you see this across traditions and we see it like with the tsunami we see it again when it when it's a natural disaster that can't be blamed really on anybody and you and you have a tradition of the book of Romans the Apostle Paul speaks of this sense of nature is out of whack my phrase but we live in the midst of a creation that's groaning I think that's a beautiful sort of poetic way to explain it something is profoundly wrong and we are desperate for justice for restoration for somebody somewhere to do something about this yeah that is a loud cellphone yes hands up all over the place yes you pick next one I know you so it seems to me God's love with God's wrath the can God be both loving and just yes and actually have something to explore something to explore in the book as there has been this there has been this human human longing and desire for for God to fix the world essentially to like say no more greed we can't have that here no more exploitation of the weak and vulnerable we can't have that here so there has been this like the Prophet Amos let justice roll like a river that this human ache to see those who would use their who have corrupted their power who are using coercive violence to force others into all sorts of destructive things there has been this longing for justice and I separate so at the heart of the Jewish and out of that the Christian understanding has been this longing for a day and you find it called the day of the Lord you find to call the Judgment Day you you you have this God saying no longer here if you want to do that you can't do it here out or there or what something along those lines you also have this side by side God's endless affirmation God wants everybody to be saved Psalm 22 all people will be at the great banquet and so you have this the possibility of every single person being rescued you have this sort of longing and then you have this longing for justice and they sit side by side and if you get rid of that tension the Western mind loves the modern mind loves is either this or is it this well which is it which are you are you left right serve that the the Hebrew mind and the scriptures is okay with these things being true and one of the things I explore in the book is at the end of the Bible at the end of the book of Revelation is this picture of a city this renewed restored city heaven and earth come together now the dwelling of God is with people and then there are people who aren't in it and those are the people who choose to lie and murder and all those sorts of things and there's this beautiful thing it's almost like the writer like another little sort of wink-wink nudge-nudge as he throws in this oh and there's a gate in the city and it never shuts huh like can you go yeah you know so it's sort of this picture and then it just doesn't get resolved it's just sits there and I think it's important that we let it sit there side by side I think we have room for one more question maybe you pick I'm gonna pick all right how about somebody way in back I have terrible this person is being volunteered by the people around them yeah that looks like it could be a good touch waiting to happen and he's wearing a hat so let's go thank you so much for coming and just so you haven't proposed to any of us that you're answering all the questions and you we know that this is not the first time that this issue has been dragged up to be discussed in intensity in the church history but you have drugged it up you've been you feel motivated your community feels motivated too and there are many people that probably feel motivated to reconsider ways that we've looked at Heaven Hell etcetera or how we've communicated about it my question to you is what is your concern if we ignore talking about it if we aren't to discuss current situations views ways as portrayed ways is communicated around the world if we ignore that if we stop discussing this and leave it status quo what are your greatest concerns next question that's a great question man there's so so many people who have had the same sort of question sort of in front of me first off millions and millions and millions of people the fundamental way they were told about Jesus was God loves you God has a wonderful plan for your life God loves you so much that God sent Jesus because God wants a relationship with you and all you have to do is accept trust believe if tonight you reject what I'm saying to you right now and you are hit by a car on the way home which is always an awkward way as Kanye West would say awkward way to start a conversation what God would then have no choice but to punish you eternally with torment and fire in hell so God would in that split-second become a totally different beam if there was an earthly father who was like that this one moment this the next we would call the authorities correct and my experience as a pastor answering real questions of real people is lots of people have really really toxic dangerous psychologically devastating images of God in their head images of a God who's not good and so my experience has been lots of people they go to church they sing the songs they tell the story they hand out pamphlets they really want but when but to be honest deep down they have profound ambivalence about God so we can talk about the Bible we can talk about heaven when you're talking about how we can sort of discuss all of this but at its core the question behind the question behind the question the mystery behind the mystery behind the mystery they have a view of a God whose terrible that they can't even imagine being loving or wanting anything to do with and over and over and over again I've interacted with people who when you just sort of okay I realize you brought me this question but what do you really think is behind this like who is the god behind what do you you end up with them saying actually I I think the universe might be a terribly awful place it might be deeply unsafe God might be like my abusive father so I think it's really important that we talk about this because what happens is sometimes people are talking about good news and they're talking about Jesus and yet you're smelling the God behind it going whatever you're talking about the God behind that I can't trust is not good and so in some sense is God being good is such a fresh radical new idea there is a woman who comes up to me every Sunday at our church and she hands me a feast piece of paper it's half of an eight by eleven sheet and it's folded in half and she walks away and we smile and I give her a hug and we talk from home as she walks away and on the sheet of paper is a number and it is the number of days since she last cut herself and she told me about a year ago that every man she'd ever been with hit her and so when she hears about love her experience of life has not been love and just a couple weeks ago she crossed the 365-day mark and so we brought her up on stage and just said everybody this is and just I just introduced her I said this is gave her name and just said she's celebrating one year without cutting herself and it was a beautiful beautiful moment to say the least but for her it's like a whole new rewiring of her heart in mind is going on like and that's what all of this means to me I love the discussion I love this sort of speculation I love all the different theories but ultimately for me it's like I don't want to cut anymore it's like that simple I want to see her experience good news I want to her experience love I don't want her to live with his sort of images and messages she's been sent about who God is and what life is ultimately like and whether the universe is even a place that she can call home I want her to give me another sheet of paper and I want us to get to two years so so I realize in these questions I stumble a bunch I realize I wander all over the place I realize that give answer in the double I realize that I'm not a theologian I'm not a scholar not very smart but I do know that there is good news and I've seen it in action and that's that's something that's worth talking about Thanks [Applause] I guess we're gonna find but right is that what the is that what the hand signals are about thanks so much for participating we've had like many many many many thousands of people online thank you for and growing for being online what's extremely important for all of you on and even here tonight is that this last hour is gonna rerun in an endless loop forever never never never never line up against you will pay for your books over here the tables need to be balanced taejun but Rob and Lisa are gonna sign for you if you don't want to wait because there may be a long line that a certain amount of pre signed books so let them know over there thanks everyone for coming [Applause] [Music]

Channel: HarperCollins Publishers

Views: 99,024

Keywords: Rob Bell (Author), Love Wins, Christianity (Religion), Theology, Spiritualism (Religion), Religion & Spirituality, Heaven (Quotation Subject), Lisa Miller (Author), Jesus Christ (Deity), Heaven & Earth, Christian Books, History of the Bible, HarperOne, HarperCollins (Publication), Rob Bell Interview

Id: _EgwEDRr5Fc

Length: 72min 4sec (4324 seconds)

Published: Mon Jul 02 2012