Reviving the Black Church

hello friends welcome back to our last installment of Reformation tonight please take your seats we have here with us the preacher of the hour through BD on your wheel a pastor of Anacostia River Church in Washington DC brother thank you for ministering God's Word to us thank you for having me brother joy so joy the most important paragraph ever written was fed to his well brother let's go thank you so much Joe scores and we have joining us our friend here in the middle HB Charles jr. he's the pastor of the Shiloh Metropolitan Baptist Church in Jacksonville Florida thank you brother um one of the classic debates in theology is of the ubiquity of Christ after he's been raised what do we do about its him being everywhere and following you on Instagram I wonder if there is some father ubiquity of HP Charles no all right so you really are only here right now you're not also in Dallas and in Jacksonville and in Los Angeles you're really just right here okay well it's good to see you brother hey there there has been a comment made publicly at least once here with the assumption that monochromatic churches are not what we're looking for because that's not what we're gonna see the book of Revelation implication being therefore I think maybe if we're talking an English language an Asian American Church a traditional black church an all-white church that these are are negative things for Christians thoughts comments on this I think commitment to biblical discipleship is a commitment to reach and the Great Commission all the nations I think as the book of Revelation says Christ has redeemed for himself a people of every nation tribe tongue people language and I think our churches should look like that I do not think we should be striving to develop a church that is just suitable to what we are comfortable around culturally if the gospel only works with people that look like us we are preaching the wrong gospel reading anything you want to add to that well and this brother's a practitioner I mean over the last couple years he's been leading his church through a merger with another congregation that was predominantly white and his historically phenomenally african-american church there's there's a rich wonderful beauty in that unity across ethnic lines I had a privilege of pastoring in the Cayman Islands Ria's Inga panties what why the lady's clapping works in the office that does the census I think she lies told me they were about 110 115 nationalities on that in that island nation we maybe had 35 or so in our church and so that kind of unity in the gospel is power powerful but I do want to hasten to also say we have a unity prior to that which that visible unity grows out of it's our unity in the gospel right and so we are not here talking about a unity for unity sake and I don't think we don't understand that that Christ Church isn't unified his body isn't unified if we have something called a predominantly white or predominantly african-american church and and I think you know it's important for people to understand that we have a predominantly white or predominantly african-american church as a consequence of history and sin that the black church exists in part not exclusively but in part because of the unrepentant sin of our white brothers and sisters who excluded us from congregations in many cases we used to be fruitfully a part of and so we often get that sort of allusion to Revelation which we won't see finally until we see Christ and we often get with that some questions some interrogation about well why is there a black church to which my reply is because there's a white church and and if you don't want to see a black church then go join one right why presume the movement must be in one direction that african-americans should leave their congregations to join white congregations right white brothers and sis and we have white brothers and sisters who come over into our 94 percent african-american neighborhood and are fruitful parts of our congregation I understand them to be laying down their lives for the gospel in a profound and powerful way and more brothers and sisters of lighter hue need to do that and join and join the good african-american churches that are in their community instead of driving by them for my house amen HP anything you wanna answer that yeah I would agree that it is as he said rooted in sin and response to racism I think however at the same time what my opening statement it's centered in the fact of our the community that we live in so my two teenage children might have three my two older teenage children played sports go to school with do homework assignments with an A in our neighborhood with other children that don't look like them are not from their background and my wife part time she serves on a school board and has made friends with all kinds of people and something's wrong with with our gospel I think that if our lives are meld together in so many other ways and we intentionally segregate ourselves when it comes to the worship of the Lord Jesus Christ one of the many things HP and I have in common is we both read to be teased new book reviving the black church I thought you were gonna say you both grew up in the black Turkish now the BT knows that I've been to the church he grew up in that's what I I have worshipped with the brothers and sisters there on a Sunday morning and it was a wonderful and memorable visit 15 years ago that's a great time I don't think you'll ever forget it you want to just real briefly tell them why particularly the end of the service we were having church bed and and pastor Kane is a wonderful man he does what often happens in our circles he look out he sees pastors in the congregation he calls them up in the pulpit area you want to sit up here and mark in about nine interns or squeeze together on the front bench and Mark like no no no and so nearly in the service the pastor says man I just think you got a word from the Lord why don't you come and give the people a word and I had no idea of what was going on he's calling me to come up front I'm like III got nothing so so mark goes up to the pulpit the congregation is expecting a word of encouragement he looks around kinda like this is let's pray hello there's these two dear ladies sitting in front of me and uh and it's they bother here's what I'm looking well I guess that's how they did it their church oh the VD I can't help but note you dress the dress so as to promote your book that's like that's very good brother oh this is a new book that I I went by and checking the bookstore apparently you all went and picked them up that's awesome now I would just like to encourage you to read it and it's it's a brain thing for you to write about brother because as I understand the the church in the african-american community of because of history is an even more central institution than the churches and a lot of white communities or in in white families and neighborhoods at large so this took some courage to write a book titled reviving the black church why because it seems to suggest that the black church isn't vibed that it needs to be revived iswhat else funny things know you know we love revivals we pray for revival we hunger for revival that's what the book is about all right all right then the back of it it says is the black church dying yes that's the question that's the question raised by Eddie laws as a question raised by Princeton professor Eddie Glaude I wrote in a Huffington Post article a couple years back not the question but the statement the black church is dead and his argument was the black church is dead because he being on the Left politically and so on feels like it's not living up to its prophetic tradition and not doing some things in the political sphere which he equates with life and so the book is a joust against that way of we don't measure the life of the church by its politics even though part of the rich history of the african-american church is taken a truth of the Scriptures into the social and political arena we measure the life of the church I would argue by the the faithfulness of the preaching and the application of God's Word it's God's Word that gives life and so the book is an extended argument that if however you answer that question we know that dry bones can live again and it's by the proclamation of the word of God and so I still have to write the book 15 years agos the first book I ever set out to write the Lord took me on a 15 year journey through some other things preparing me to write that and it's just a loving call to commit to commit ourselves to the proclamation of the scripture well thank you for letting me and other readers into your house you know as it were because in reading through this you do describe a lot of what the black church is like and I think if if you're here and you you're not african-american and you've not even been in a black church before this will be a good thing for you to read H we did you recognize churches in this when you're reading to do a good job and in describing what's what's going on I agree with all of the biblical conclusions the BT reaches in the book I don't know I don't know to place where I would disagree I'm not sure maybe the starting place Oh more of scholarly history maybe more pastoral II anecdotally I am in traditional black Baptist churches I have pastored to traditional black Baptist churches I am around the country every year in multiple black Baptist churches every month and some of what I would be careful about generalization if you start this and draw conclusions about what the black church is I would be nervous about that because many of the things you commend there are their names that are not on conferences that have not written books that don't serve mega churches but our faithful men faithful churches the church I was in in in a city last week it's surrounded by larger named mega churches this is a strong healthy Church that people don't know about and a lot of the things he commends is they are already taking place there are a lot of faithful young men and senior men who are committed to the Word of God I'm a black Baptist preacher I get loud and holidays a lot of black Baptist churches I could not go in and be loud and hollien cuz they would look at me crazy just like if I was out of another setting um why would they look at you like you're crazy yeah I just think the church I serve right now um loves me and puts up with the fact now that they have a loud preacher that wasn't not what they were used to um and some of them it wanted the able a man and clap and many of them still because they love me after eight years are adjusting and appreciate the word and hear the message but I would say a generalization that churches are about are driven by emotion are not committed to the word are all about prosperity I wouldn't read this and assume that's the starting place for all black Baptist churches or black churches that I would be my only caution that is thank God not the case there are many black churches that are alive and well amen i I would say two things in complete agreement no disagreement at all in that if you read the book what you'll see is I try to put in dialogue what are your three broad strands that we're looking at today there's a there's a sort of left-liberal which tends to be small a minority in the black dress but but is present and alive there is a big fat middle evangelical doesn't always mean the same thing that's meant by um Jellicle in sort of the news media or when we think about a predominately white churches but committed to the scriptures committed to the gospel endeavoring to do the work of Christ that's the fat middle then on another side you've got your cred and all that good stuff sort of prosperity gospel and when you share all that good stuff not oh well yeah not immediate that well I'm just making sure that just don't Claire okay all right all that stuff so what I would say in complete agreement with HB is the black church is a diverse thing that's kind of where I start in the introduction sort of saying it's not one thing right and as you read through the chapters I'm trying to put those things in conversation now the other thing I'd want to say it real quickly is in commendation of what HB just say I you know I think if you want to look for an exemplar of the mainstream of the african-american church o brothers I would rather you look at HB then creflo dollar HB is is amen so good it don't wait guys phrase like that all the time 48 I must come back we don't know I'm saying that because he's poking at he's poking rightly at the wrong perception that if if in a book like this or or in the decline of acclimate theology or other things I've written I've been critical of those aspects of the church many brothers here unfamiliar with the church go away thinking that's all of the church that is not true and I think HB is is is black church royalty you know it is that's how it grows up in a pastor's home a faithful pastor's home yes he takes charge of a password at 18 his first password for so 17 in California's faithful there for many years leaves well goes over to Jackson Jacksonville you've been there eight years I couldn't commend the brother highly enough if you're looking for an exemplar I would say to me would be black church loyalty and and I don't have any qualms about that and yeah coming back to what he's pointing out the black church is diverse and this conversation about our health and our well-being is just critical in your afterward you say truthfully a fierce battle rages for the imagination in heart of the black church we see the battle fought in the pages of books in the sermons of preachers in the class that train future servants of the church must say that much of the black church remains unaware of the fight assuming the best of all its leaders and teachers thinking that the use of the same language and words means agreement among all like so many Trojan horses men and women by day smuggle their armies into the camp of the church in order to release their forces at night while the normally alert soundly sleep unless we are willing to be overrun by Midnight Marauders we need to heed the Bible's call to watch to wake from our slumber to do the works of our first love back to what John said earlier the church's life depends on it Amen so what I have in mind there for example is the Raphael Warren up good man as far as I know I don't know him personally he passes Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta he wrote a wonderful book wonderful in terms of Ben's engaging read called the divided mind of the black church now he is self professed Lee on the left himself professor Lee subscribes to liberation theology a lot cones and others it presents himself as what the what the or that theology not so much himself will make a person that theology as what the church needs I think that's wrong and and I and I think it's a betrayal of the church's history and I think this battle is real and it's significant and again just to sort of an audience like this try to hit this audience a little bit you need to know it's awkward for us to have this kind of conversation publicly because of the ways in which some of you will go away again drawing the wrong conclusions wrong conclusions that that we would not draw ourselves but if we don't have this conversation publicly then you get the paragraph there I'm concerned about the the war nots on the left the Creflo is on television who in some ways want to represent themselves as black church and and are not healthy are not good for the church and are not consistent with the longer history of the church and so that's a pastoral burden that drives me and so the critiques I have our critiques that I hope to make in love and I hope to be redemptive and the aim that I have is not at the h-beams of the world it's not at that those pastors you mentioned being meeting with it's not at the passage that I was just here on on Monday with about 20 brothers over in the West End godly brothers great brothers men like Victrola and Kevin Smith fat southern and and and many others faithful as the day is long I'm not even at those brothers you know I don't with weird coal belligerents in this battle HV did you feel aimed out at reading the book no no not at all but I I just get concerned I stated earlier yeah that you're handing out this book here yeah and if you are not engaged or have a personal relationship across those lines and read this and draw conclusions would be my concern and this this book has so much to commend and I wouldn't out as there are those in in my sphere of influence who I would want to pass this book on to the heart of what he just said needs to be expressed so they don't take that don't know long way to me one of the things that I appreciated in here was exactly you're loving this word the churches it exists on page 98 99 you have the wonderful story of Reverend Betts you to me he begins each chapter with a bit of an anecdote and this one was with some earlier troubles to be had and will leave it vague ly like that let him search in the book for what those could be and um the picture of this dear brother dignified quiet courageous you know having grown up in a world where he is treated so poorly and yet keeping his dignity in that and then going in and even wielding influence that those people who are structurally opposed to him you know you get the feeling even kind of reluctantly concede to him but in order to help you as a teenager it's a moving picture for me reading it as a pastor and somebody who who grew up in the south as a white man and it's a I by the way you know I grew up in this up as a white man I guess I didn't thought that might have been together well while we're having all these personal revelations by this t4g but you could have been like Steve Martin you were born a poor black child you know I don't know oh it's such a loving portrayal of Reverend Betts and I think HP gives to what you're saying that there is in this book I found anyway some wonderfully loving reminiscences of traditional churches well I hope so Reverend Betts pastored files Chapel Baptist Church in my hometown for 55 years from Arkansas originaly and everything you would think of in terms of a traditional solid godly african-american pastor was in FD Ben's doctor FD Betts and yeah we let folks read it but he was pivotal in changing the trajectory of my life and it's two men like that that that book is what's that word and in the dedicated dedicated and it's two men like that that I want to honor in this book so if if brother's here who are of my lighter persuasion all right would would like to befriend other pastors in their area of other persuasions would you encourage them to not use this book or to build a friendship first and then later bring out this book or how could this book be useful between pastors and trying to help create conversation understanding Fellowship H being thoughts I moved to Jacksonville eight years ago the Lord drugged me kicking and screaming to Jacksonville and I made my rounds out of respect got a list of the pastors you need to meet and introduce yourself to as new pastor in town a friend out of the city told me and I didn't know anyone in Jacksonville said down the street from you it's the best friend you'll have as a pastor in Jacksonville Matt Brunson I knew of Matt Brunson's ministry from his preaching and his writing I did not believe that statement but I put his name on the list a call I called him wanted to meet with him of all of the list of pastors that I met with he was the first and the only to say no don't come to my office I'm gonna come to your office and visit you and it was warm fellowship and I I will not soon forget Mac Brunson getting on his knees in my study praying for me and my wife and my children by name and praying knowing some of the things that I stepped into at that church and promising to be a friend and he has done that and he has show concern prayed for me checked in on me at a certain point when I invited him to come preach he came down with his big choir from First Baptist and shocked my church and invited me and my choir down the First Baptist and we shocked his church I guess that's how they do the gentry and I theirs as the BT mentioned a year ago our church merged with the predominantly white Southern Baptist Church that story got a lot of news there's a great witness while there was so much racial tension a summer to ago God was using our church in our city as a witness as that was taking place but I don't think any of that would have taken been able to happen if it just didn't start with Mac Brunson coming six blocks down the street from his church to my church and just being a friend where he's going to another pastor down the street not maybe starting with a book but just finding someone to be a friend to and seeing how God works from there would be what I come in the BT Council that's great counselor that's great counselor that's a great counsel I would agree with everything he said more more fundamental than what you read together is the friendship are the bonds and cords of love that you cultivate together the book is written in such a way and HP has been kind enough to say this a number of times is written in such a way that while I'm principally concerned with the african-american church as kind of subject is written in I hope such a way that it's really biblical prescription so that it's useful to all God's churches and there's a conviction about that I think that the history and the tradition of the african-american church is a gift to the entire church and particularly in some of the cultural transitions that many of my M angelical friends are trying to get accustomed to the shining sort of star to be looking at and to be learning from is the african-american church that has had to bore bare faithful witness to the gospel and serve its community oppressed and marginalized well I mean let's be clear there is no white evangelical church out there that's trembling about the law changes it's anywhere near thinking they're all about to be made slaves that's right so there's just that the fear that white evangelicals have the changing culture I'm I don't like the things they're fearing I agree but I'm just thinking we have brothers and sisters here who've been through a lot worse not that long ago and who are still facing a lot of things that we're not facing and I think their churches have a lot to teach us about how to live as Christian churches against lots of structural opposition amen I think you know one of the one of the theologians in the african-american tradition says the greatest miracle of Christianity is that the slaveholders God became the slaves come right and now what we did with that I think demonstrates more integrity with theology and with ethics than any other example you look at in this country and if we would be humble and learn we will find ourselves enriched for our own present generation man if I would add something beyond just passing this on to an african-american friend just scratch out reviving just scratch out the black part of the title and read it for yourself the things the BT commends our concerns for the church in America as a whole godly leadership expository preaching we generate membership yeah God centered worship or not it's just that's right black church problems just call the missions in the book as well go right there Yeah right yes Amen friends thank you very much we've got a 15-minute break and then our last session thank you very much thank you thank you

Channel: Together for the Gospel (T4G)

Views: 21,574

Rating: 4.7405405 out of 5

Keywords: Anyabwile, Black, Charles, church, Dever, H.B., Mark

Id: QckoEFawhIE

Length: 27min 27sec (1647 seconds)

Published: Fri May 27 2016