REVERSE AGING: What To Eat & When To Eat For LONGEVITY | David Sinclair

this is probably the most effective diet that's ever been promoted on the planet this protects our body against decay disease and the root causes of aging is not only good for you but will make you live longer [Music] a central theme when i when i think about your work and your research for me is this idea of hormesis and the survival signals we put on the body and i wonder if at the start of this conversation you can outline what hormesis is and why it's so important when we come to think about aging well the problem is we built a world that's that's very comfortable and we were not we did not evolve in these conditions we are meant to be typically cold and hungry and in response to those adverse cities our bodies fight back and so what the problem is that we now sit in chairs we eat as much food as we want we don't have to walk anywhere or lift anything heavy and our bodies become complacent now what was discovered is you need hormesis what's that that basically means the what doesn't kill you makes you stronger um and so what we do when we exercise and what if we skip a meal what we're doing is inducing this very ancient very very ancient billions of years ancient mechanism that protects our body against decay disease and the root causes of aging in an effort to survive and so you really want to do the opposite of what modern life gives you yeah one of the things that you recommend i guess one of the most easy to understand and simplest interventions you recommend for people is to eat less and i think that fits quite beautifully into this uh idea of hormesis it doesn't stay in terms of what eating less signals to the body and then what it causes the body to do afterwards so i wonder if we could just sort of dive in there into why is eating less important what signal does it give us and then how does that impact the way in which we age well there are three main longevity mechanisms that we know of they have certain names one's called sirtuins there's seven of those genes in our body and we've been working on them for 25 years another one's called mtor the other one's called ampk the names don't matter as much as the fact that they're activated by by a bit of hunger um to give you an example in 2005 we we published a science paper that showed uh which at the time was revolutionary now it's just considered obvious but one of these sort of genes called certip1 was activated by caloric restrictions so we found that animals that had been eating less and had low levels of insulin and another factor that's related called igf-1 insulin related growth factor uh that boosted the levels dramatically of this cert one protective longevity gene uh and then we showed that protects against dna damage and so what we do when we're hungry uh skip a meal or two which is what i do every day uh it boosts up our longevity genes and they take care of us we know that if we boost the longevity genes in animals they live longer they're healthier they stay fitter for longer and they die much quicker at the end of life and you know i think everybody would know that in in human history fasting is considered one of the healthiest things you can do um and so there's so much evidence that it's really incontrovertible that skipping meals is not only good for you but will make you live longer there's many ways of course to skip meals uh you know how do you view fasting because there's you know all different types of intermittent fasting uh protocols out there uh there is time restricted eating which i know sachin panda has done a lot of the research on at the salk institute and you know i think it's quite a confusing area for people coming to it's fresh specifically through your lens of looking at longevity and how to delay or even prevent aging or well we'll come to it later even reverse aging you know how do you look at foods um and how we can practically you know do this in our own lives yeah well there was an incredible study that um was that of the nih uh in bethesda a good friend of mine rafael de cabo and his lab had over 10 000 mice they put them on different diets different carbs protein fat and they then divided those diets into two groups some mice got food all the time and they nibbled on it during the day and then the others got the meal once i think it was for an hour only and those my scorched themselves and and ate almost as much as the ones that were grazing and it didn't matter what the food was it was the ones that ate in that window that lived dramatically longer so if you can extrapolate and there's always caveats but i think the principle still holds in our cells which is it's not as much about what you're eating but when you're eating and it is confusing because first of all we're all different we have different levels of willpower we have different jobs some of us are hungry in the morning some are hungry at night um some of us can go for three days i can't but some people can some can go for just the morning plus we're all genetically different we'll have different microbiomes and food preferences so it is complicated but i i found it relatively simple to explain it this way if you are not starving at breakfast and you prefer dinner skip breakfast and if you can do without dinner skip dinner but skip one of those too because then you have a whole period of sleep that uh means you're fasting and your body will protect itself and repair itself better now you can take it one step further if your game and that's what i did over the last um 18 months during the pandemic was to also as best i can skip lunch as well so i go all day without eating with a tiny little bit of yogurt in the morning to dissolve a supplement but essentially i'm just here i'm holding a glass of water i'll have tea a lot of coffee that'll keep me full and i go till dinner and at dinner i have a reasonable meal i'll go out to a restaurant and i'll eat something and try not to be full i don't stuff myself because i'll actually sleep poorly but i i really enjoy that and first of all it saves money second of all it makes you enjoy food a lot more and third there's a misconception that you'll feel tired it's totally wrong if you can get through three to four weeks of that with some willpower and uh and a bit of uh hot beverage a few hot beverages you'll actually get your body will get accustomed to it to the point where eating lunch feels weird and you definitely don't need it you definitely don't feel tired and i don't get that afternoon slump which i know is caused by a decrease in insulin after a lunchtime meal and i've never felt better i've never looked better i've never had so much energy physically and mentally it's fascinating when we think about this through an evolutionary lens that you know of course why why would we be struggling mentally when we were hungry because of course if we really were hungry in the past we would need our you know our mental acuity right as as good as it could be to go and actually fix that problem get out there find some food hunt so it really makes sense but also it also makes me think of what you said right at the start of our conversation about modern life being too comfortable because you know what i'm in my early 40s i remember from a young age you know even though i'm from an indian family i saw my mum practice various forms of fasting once or twice a week but we never did you know for us it was get up as soon as you're up eat your breakfast you know eat eat eat was the message i got as a kids and i think that's the message a lot of society gets so when you talk about eating less or reducing how often you eat could potentially give you short-term health benefits but also long-term health benefits and delay aging i think it's quite revolutionary for a lot of people to hear these days well intermittent fasting now is the most popular diet in the world and uh hopefully it's not a fad because this is probably the most effective diet that's ever been promoted on the planet even for children i'm not suggesting malnutrition or starvation by any means but having three meals a day plus snacks is a calorie overload for even for children in the most cases you can tell just by the amount of fat a kid is carrying as to whether you're over feeding your kid and if you're if you have an obese child and i know it's very difficult because in my family we struggle with this as well but the effects on that child will echo for decades perhaps even towards the end of life they will still have the memory the epigenetic memory we call it of having been obese as a child and so one area that i'm researching and going to be communicating about is the effects of our lifestyle not just on adults and the elderly but even on children yeah i want to come back to that shortly um but before we leave the topic of eating less you said intermittent fasting is the most popular diet or way of eating in the world now and you know there's brand new blog posts podcasts youtube videos every day coming out on this um do you think of intermittent fasting as different to time restricted eating and the reason i'm sort of diving in here is you know when i see patients i have to be very clear with what i'm asking them to do you know very specific so they really understand what i'm recommending and i think for some people intermittent fasting is one meal a day for some people it's you know 16 hours without eating and eight hours a day where i'm consuming food then you also have time restricted eating where it's eat all your food within an 8 hour winner or a 10 hour when you're a 12-hour window and i think there is a little bit of confusion out there as to what these terms actually mean so how do you put that together for people uh if they're asking oh i i don't think that it's helpful to have these all these different names it's essentially just eat less often that's how simple it is skip a meal skip the snacks um so intermittent fasting time restricted feeding uh to me it's all the same thing it's just uh don't keep your body filled with food that's pretty simple um the amount of hours the more you can spread it out so 18 for me is is a good good number 16's okay um you know i i eat within two hours so i i get basically 22 hours which works for me um but here's the the really important point um it's not complicated you do what you can you start skipping meals start with one dinner or breakfast and then if you can do that then try to go longer um it's not the other really important thing is if you try to do what i do from a standing start you will fail there's no question it's too hard your body will freak out it'll feel tired your brain will be distracted uh and you'll go straight to the fridge you need to give yourself time it can take a month to get there and one of the adaptations is your liver needs to learn to put out glucose to maintain steady levels so it's not like this through the day and and that takes it takes a while uh but once you're at the state that i'm in and your microbiome is optimized and your liver is very happy with its existence then you you will find it very hard to go back to eating the old way um and you also generally look a lot better as well which is a nice side effect you've mentioned the term longevity gene a couple of times so far and it's quite an interesting concept to think about because why would we on an evolutionary basis needed a longevity gene you know it seems to be slightly at odds with how many of us look at the past um so i'm just interested as to you know what's going on there what why does nature why is nature put within us these genes that potentially promote longevity when that really wasn't the goal of evolution certainly from my understanding yeah that's right um evolution doesn't care about the elderly once you've raised your kids you're pretty much expendable with the exception of uh my grandmother but the the real point is that these are really survival genes these are adversity genes that have kept life forms alive ever since there was life on this planet and the stratums that i work on are found in everything even a yeast cell and bacteria and so that think of them as survival but if you keep your survival genes on for most of your life the side effect is you don't get sick and you don't get aging as fast and then you live longer there are these three pathways that you have sort of briefly touched on so far so humans mtor and apmk that we are i think trying to influence with various things whether it be drugs whether it be lifestyle practices could you explain sort of bit by bit what they each are a bit of the history of how you came to discover them and then i guess where that sort of fits in as to the recommendations you make right well there are nine known causes of aging there's a there's a lot of them i won't list them all what controls those processes are these three main longevity pathways so circuins do a lot of things they protect the cell from damage they repair things they reduce inflammation um even boost memory so they're very very important for long-term health and they are they are boosted by a molecule called nad and so we've been adding an nmn which is a precursor to nad to the water supply of mice for many years and they're healthy and they live longer the other what's called another central pathway is called m tor little m capital t o r and it has uh evolved to sense protein intake primarily amino acids and so we when you eat a lot of meat and a lot of particularly branched chain amino acids they're called that are in meat you will stimulate this mtor now the problem is mtor is a signal for growth rather than survival and so that's why if you eat a lot a lot of meat you're not actually going in my view to stimulate your longevity the other way around when you're fasting and you don't have a lot of amino acids coming into your stomach then mtor will be shut down and that's a hunker down survival mechanism and there's a drug called rapamycin that currently is used for immunosuppression but in low doses it inhibits mtor and extends the lifespan of just about every organism that's been fed to and there are some people taking it for longevity then the third pillar is called ampk and ampk registers the amount of energy in the body uh sugar for example and when its sugar levels are low and insulin levels are low then apk will be boosted in into uh activity boosted activity and then the result is more mitochondria and less inflammation so you want more saturated less mtor and more mp ampk now the ampk is interesting you can take a drug called metformin which will boost ampk now metformin in the west is uh uk and in america is uh prescription only it's not true for most of the world but there are people who are taking it instead of for type 2 diabetes which is what it's normally prescribed for to lower blood sugar just to take it as a preventative measure but what's interesting is that there are tens of thousands of people that have been looked at and they also have lower risk of other diseases when they take metformin cancer heart disease alzheimer's frailty and it's a fact that people that take metformin daily have longer lives than those that don't even take the drug or have type 2 diabetes and so together we've got those three levers that we can pull um along with exercise and and intermittent fasting um that we think will greatly lengthen our lives by 15 20 years or even more as i was reading your book and as i as i study your work um i saw a parallel in thinking in terms of what i found in my own career as a medical doctor so you know i've been seeing patients now for just over 20 years and i can't remember when but somewhere along the line i remember thinking why are we looking at all these things as separate diseases there's hypertension heart disease you know uh cerebrovascular disease and we're very much trained to see them differently with essentially different protocols for treatment and then the more i sort of studied as to what is going on upstream from these things more you think well actually you know chronic unresolved inflammation is playing a big role in all of these uh different conditions uh insulin resistance is playing a big role in all of these conditions and i found more and more that when i tackle these root causes with my patients let's say inflammation and um insulin resistance and help them become more insulin sensitive actually they all start to get better right and i find that instead of seeing them differently actually i could focus on the root cause and i i know in your early on in the book you write about these different hallmarks of aging whether as you've already mentioned mitochondria are not working so well or telomeres shortening um or dna being damaged but then you went one step further go well what's upstream from these and is as i hear you talk about saturn's mtor and pk and the benefits forget longevity for a minute just the benefits and energy or memory and focus i think well presumably well is it fair to say there's a you know that sort of way of thinking is similar do you think that's accurate and then the natural extension for me is if we are going this far upstream to delay and prevent aging then presumably as well as doing that we are going to improve people's vitality and their quality of life because all kinds of other things are going to get better as well yeah also modern medicine as we call it uh it needs an overhaul it's very uh 19th century where we've been classifying diseases based on how they look at the end of the process the real underlying process is aging for most diseases that kill people in uh in fact most of the world and we've been ignoring the root cause of these diseases it's like in physics when you've got the periodic table and then in the early 20th century it was figured out that the same particles are within each of those atoms and so they're all made up of the same stuff and that's a huge breakthrough and the same with medicine and disease we've realized that there's one unifying underlying cause for most disease and disability on the planet that we've literally been ignoring for hundreds of years and i wrote the book life span to wake people up to realize that it's not good enough to stick band-aids on a disease after it's occurred because it's often too late we need to get ahead of it and address the root causes of aging itself and the one of the things that i like to say because i believe it and it's also important that we move towards this as a society and that is that aging is a medical condition admittedly it's common but just because something's common doesn't mean it shouldn't be a medical condition and if that definition was made formal or formalized by the governments around the world then doctors like yourself could more freely prescribe very cheap and relatively safe medicines that could extend someone's life and make them healthier for five or even ten years longer but we still have to we're still at an early stage where most doctors have not even conceived that aging is something worth talking to their patients about or that it's even malleable yeah it's very powerful um [Music] i i would like to think of myself as a quite a modern progressive daughter who stays on top of things trying to look for the root cause of a lot of my patients problems rather than putting band-aids on but i've got to be honest you know when was the last time i spoke to one of my patients about aging specifically about aging you know i'm not sure i i'm not sure i can remember in the recent past when that would have been i may have said something like we know that strength training uh some research has shown that that can help reverse the aging process but the focus wasn't really on aging so yeah i think that just speaks to how groundbreaking the work you're you know talking about and presenting to the world i think it really just speaks to how important and how cutting-edge this work is well yeah i agree and let me paint a picture of what the world should should be like in my view that you go to your well first of all a week before you go to your doctor you have a stick on patch that's disposable and it will monitor you a thousand times a second for all sorts of measures movement speech heart ekg for your heart uh temperature motion depression and that data will be fed into the doctor's computers and by the time you get there a week later there will be a body of data that the doctor can look at and see if there's anything potentially wrong you'll also be given a mouth swab at home to send in and by the time you get to the doctor's office you will be told your biological age and some people are 10 years older than their actual age and some are 10 years younger and those that are 10 years older i would hope that the doctor could sit the person down or give them a chat and say you know you haven't let a very good lifestyle we need to fix this here are the things that the computer and my my knowledge are saying but we also have these medicines that can help you to slow down the ticking of your clock and we even have this new therapy that will reverse your age by 10 years yeah it's quite an exciting thought for me as a doctor that that might be available at some point in the foreseeable future i'm sure it's not as far away as we might think um but but as you would as you were describing that um david i i was i was taking back to 2015 and in 2015 i had the opportunity to make a series of bbc one documentaries called doctor in the house where i would go and stay with families uh who had chronic health problems for four to six weeks i'd live alongside them and try and help them and it was you know one of the most incredible experiences of my life because i i got to help lots of families you know reverse or significantly improve their conditions without using pharmaceuticals just by making small and multiple changes to their lifestyle and there was one guy in particular that came to mind who had well his wife had type 2 diabetes he was you know overweight really struggling you know pre-diabetic i think and there was a machine there now i don't know how accurate it was but it would it would take certain metrics and give him his biological age now i i can't tell you what that what that machine was so it maybe it wasn't very accurate but i can tell you what it was incredible is when we showed it to him i said chronologically i think he was sort of 35 but biologically he was something like 47 or 48 what that did to him and his mindset and his willingness to engage i was like that is incredible suddenly he was all in in terms of right tell me what to do doc what do i need to do so i actually think there's another element to this yes there's the biology but it's also the motivational factor as to when someone is struggling i think i think there's nothing like telling someone they're older than their actual age to get them to actually start making changes well that's absolutely right in the in my book i give the analogy of a dashboard on a car you wouldn't dare drive a car without a dashboard so why do we do that with our bodies and the idea of going to a doctor for an annual checkup uh already seems medieval when we can monitor our bodies a thousand times a second and know if something is going to go wrong when you're going to have a heart attack not trying to save lives after it's actually happened and so this measurement and this feedback from monitors blood tests uh your phone can listen to you uh see how you're feeling um as well as your doctor monitoring that and and being alerted if there's a problem uh we're gonna soon within the next five years be in a world that really will make current health care look look really pathetic um but you're right about human psychology if you don't have feedback it's easy to give up and so i've been doing a test called inside tracker for the last 12 years and i've been watching my blood biomarkers get better and better over those 10 years and my calculated biological age go down over this decade so i'm potentially 10 years younger than i was 10 years ago so that's pretty astounding right the and and that's helped me looking at those numbers is motivation for me to do the right things uh and so i actually i developed a test in my lab where we can look at someone's biological age from a mouth swab or just a few dollars the cost is coming down thanks to this tech by at least 100 fold hopefully a thousand fold so people can easily monitor their biological age um i have a sign up i don't know if you would mind me mentioning it not at all please i i think i'll be first on the list to sign up uh yeah you can sign up at doctorsinclair.com d-o-c-t-o-r s-i-n-c-l-a-i-r dot com uh and get on the list we're just going we're just putting the final touches on this this test and the test also comes with uh ai behind it that will tell you the best ways to slow down and even reverse aspects of your age and get that number to come down over time i heard you say in a previous interview you've done that you could take my blood right now and tell me my biological age what sort of things are you looking for in one's blood to help make that determination yeah well there's a couple of things we can measure your biomarkers that track with age and we know people who have certain signatures will live shorter than others that's one signature that's what i've been doing for 12 years i measure about 43 different things every three to six months and i work with people who who want my advice the second which is more which is coming is this this test that was once a blood test but now is a cheek swab in the mail and out of a cheek swab we can tell you very accurately your biological age based on your the chemicals that are on your dna it turns out that chemicals on the dna called methyls will have characteristic changes over time and we can plot where you are relative to an average human and that will change depending on how you've lived how you're living um and how you will live in the future and i think that number you could think of as your credit score for your body and maybe eventually it will be a score that could be used to get discounts off life insurance and that kind of thing but for now we want people to have an insight into their body and to focus on one number which is their actual age not the number of birthday candles when thinking about those methyl groups um is that related to the genome and the epigenome and you have this beautiful analog digital analogy for people which perhaps it would be great to go into now and you know is that relevant to the the markers that you are measuring yeah it is it was such a novel idea uh when it was first when i first came up with it now i'm amazed that it's probably one of the hottest areas of biology right now um it's funny to think it you know going back to how radical it was the idea is that we have two types of information in the body that we get from our parents there's the genome our dna and then there are chemicals and proteins that stick to the dna that control how the dna is turned on and off and we need to turn dna on and off because a skin cell needs to be different than a brain cell and this pattern is laid down when we're developing but it's all this pattern also changes in response to how we live so when you exercise and when you fast this these chemicals that control the genes change in in a semi-permanent way we call this the epigenome um and the analogy would be that the digital information on a compact disc in the music is the genome and the reader that reads the different songs is the epigenome um and every cell will have a different number of songs and patterns now what i have proposed is that aging is the equivalent of scratches on that cd so that the music skips and the reprogramming as we call it the age reversal is polishing those scratches off so that the music can be read again and in between there's the slowing of the scratches so there are things like exercise eating less and some supplements that i take that i believe slow down that scratching process i mean hopefully give me enough time for the age reversal technologies to catch up age reversal it's a very interesting concept and as a doctor i think we've been quite familiar with the idea that we can perhaps delay aging but nonetheless in the backgrounds i guess this truth something we've always considered truth all humans have considered truth is that aging is inevitable but i said at start what what's so powerful about your work is you are saying or you are offering us a thought process that actually maybe it's not just about delaying aging maybe it's not just about stopping aging maybe we can actually reverse aging and that's an incredible thoughts well we can reverse aging that is an incredible fact um it's been done in my lab we published a nature paper on this a little under a year ago it got the cover of nature magazine this is not just some theory we know that you can reprogram epigenetically a mouse we cured blindness we've cured a variety of ailments in mice including dementia now we can control aging forwards and backwards quite easily in a mouse's brain and give it its memory back now that i think we understand what's going on in aging it's really easy to control it and it's it's not that long before we're gonna have the ability to really dramatically reverse aging there's already some accounts in the scientific literature of people turning their age back about two years with one treatment the fascinating thing about that is that i know of people that have been doing that treatment multiple times in clinical trials and it's additive you go back two years you do that four times you've gone back eight years now think about this if you can truly reverse your age by just one year every year then things get really really interesting i mean it's such an incredible thoughts like you never change your age you stay where you are right right now i'm not talking immortality i i'm not crazy enough to think that that's going to happen but i agree with you that we need to completely change our view of what our life's trajectories can be and there are a lot of people who are on the cutting edge of this field where and myself included were running clinical trials and seeing age aspects of age reversal cardiovascular systems the ability to have new blood flow in the body improved memory uh joints healing again not to mention the biotracking that will predict diseases ahead of time and the ability to see cancer many years before it would ever show up as an illness we are truly talking about a convergence of technologies that should extend lifespan by decades and if if it doesn't we've failed what does this mean in in in practical terms i'm just trying to get my head around this so we know that let's say alzheimer's starts in the brain 20 30 years at least before we actually get clinical symptoms so a lot of people in their 40s there are signs of alzheimer's already in the body i've read that when it comes to heart disease uh their sign of coronary artery disease and calcification etc i don't know in your 20s maybe in your teenage years i think maybe i read as kids you can see early signs of that so clearly what we're saying is that before we get symptoms before we get to that end stage states there are markers there are there are things are going on in our body before we even actually raise our hand and go to the doctor or complain of symptoms when it comes to aging when does that start as a kid is it in the womb i mean when when does aging actually start and then i guess the follower from that is let's say someone wants to implement this age reversal therapy when do you even start it do you do it in your 40s to bring you sort of back to 40 or can you do it when you're 10 years old i mean they seem like crazy questions to me but i i'm sure you've thought about them already yeah these are not crazy questions at all uh so the first thing to know is that what we're finding is if you rejuvenate the body you make it younger i'm talking about animals because that's what we've done mostly so human trials are about to begin in the next year or so but when you make the body younger diseases of old age go away all right we can have a mouse with dementia and we're giving them alzheimer's disease if we make the brain young the disease goes away that should be true i'm predicting for all age-related diseases we tend to think that aging doesn't ever change and diseases once you've got them are very hard to stop that is wrong in my view we are going to be in a world where just by turning the body back a couple of decades diseases that were once incurable will go away just take exam for example our nature paper we took mice that were blind blind from glaucoma blind from old age it took four weeks we reprogrammed their eyes to be very young again and it's a permanent reset they could see like young mice again because their eyes were young again now we just chose the eye because we thought it would be interesting we didn't choose it because it would be easy in fact we chose it because it would be hard and it worked so that's the future is don't treat the disease treat the cause and make the body repair itself like it was 20 years old again now when does aging begin well if you measure the biological clock based on the epigenome those scratches the chemicals that are on our dna the same one we use in our mouth swab that process begins the moment we are conceived so nine months before our first birthday second uh zero birthday the literal birthday we actually are aging and it goes very quickly when we're young and slows down as we're older so aging is always with us even if we don't feel it so when should we start well i would say pay attention to physical and mental health even in toddlers if you have an obese toddler or a child the effects on the epigenome will last a lifetime we know this from studies of of children um who were under adverse conditions when they were young do i recommend intermittent fasting for children of course not no they need adequate nutrition the last thing you want to do is slow their growth but what about someone in their late 20s and 30s i think absolutely that the lifestyle changes should be adopted and even some of these very safe supplements could be looked at i started on my program which i've modified over the years but i started when i was 34. um and i wish that i had that knowledge when i was 24. um you know i'm now 52 i've got no gray hair i haven't lost any hair i don't have that many wrinkles um i attribute that largely to what i've been doing for the last 20 years do you ever stop and go to a lot of the global population this stuff seems like science fiction do you meet people or do you know when you go around and give talks i mean do you get pushback are you surprised with how this is brand new information for so many people or are you sort of used to that and you you still have that passion because you strike me as someone who always like i've watched a lot of your interviews you have this incredible passion to teach people and get this message out there where does that come from and you know i don't know talk to me about that a little bit yeah it's it's something that i have a skill for that i didn't know but i do like storytelling i really like educating i get joy out of filling people's minds with wonder you know i'm still a 12 year old maybe even younger and you know when a a 12 year old or younger goes home and says mommy mommy or dad you wouldn't believe what happened today i saw this insect on a tree and it laid eggs and then a spider came that's that's what i am doing now i love telling these stories because i want to share them they're super exciting and i do find that i have an ability to explain things at a level that most people can get and find entertaining and that probably is because i'm still this 12 year old inside my head a lot of people when you ask them uh how long you'd like to live for you know there's a variety of different answers aren't there so i actually uh spoke to one of my friends about this a few weeks ago we're in the car together and he said 80 man i'm i'm by 80 i'll be done i was quite shocked actually because i thought man 80. you're kidding me like i have a different viewpoint of what i would like for my own life um i know i've seen some of your talks online and you often ask this question at talks how much of our view of at what age we think we'd like to die do you think is shaped by this kind of prevailing view that old age is hard and when we get old we can't move and we can't see and we need help because that's the big thing right i think many people would like to live a lot longer if they felt they'd have that vitality whilst they were aging as well that's exactly right i asked the question twice the first question is how long do you want to live and i would say a third of the people say 80 another third say 100 and then there's the other third that would say 150 and beyond but then i asked the question again after i say but what if you could stay healthy till the end and then just about everybody's hands go up so it's clearly a misconception of what i'm talking about what i'm saying is that we are preventing getting old preventing diseases preventing cancer heart disease alzheimer's who would not want that and when we extend lifespan it's not keeping people in nursing homes for longer who would want that it's allowing people to be 85 and 90 even 100 to play tennis and hang out with their families and start a new career the best example i can give you is my father whose stars in the book he was he retired at 67 and was not looking forward to being 80 he was thinking he'd be in a wheelchair like most 80 year old man if not in the ground he's now 82 he's fitter than me stronger than me more excited about life than me seriously he's got a great social life and he has no diseases no aches or pains mentally extremely sharp and has started a new career this is what 82 should look like and if people change their lifestyles the way that i describe in the book they have a great chance of reaching that point and beyond and then the last point i want to make is anyone who says they want to die at 80 is misguided in my view because if at 80 you've got friends you've got family you're doing something with purpose whether it's community work or a job no one says i want to die no one wants to die if they've got a health healthy life with family and you know if i if there's someone out there who says i'm i'm happy and healthy but kill me now i'm yet to meet them yeah it's it's so powerful it really is it gets i mean i like your work anyway but it's going to be even more excited to put in some proper anti-aging practices there's quite a lot i want to talk about around that in terms of what it means to to live to an older age but you mentioned you know people who've gone through this treatment where they've actually reversed their rage by two years um now i know there are these kind of three levels you talk about of treatment is that level three is that the kind of deep level that uh you talk about because i'd i'd sort of like to sequentially go through i presume that eating less is that sort of level one is it so uh or level one and level two perhaps you could explain what those three levels are and then we could go through what we can do at the moment at each of those levels yeah yeah well the first level is prevention so skipping meals eating healthy which i would say is roughly a mediterranean diet and uh and keeping excess keeping your body in good shape so exercise run for 10 minutes every few days at a minimum lose your breath at least go for a walk and build up muscle strength in your main muscles that'll help hormones as well as the ability to survive a fall which in the u.s happens every 19 seconds and is worse than cancer for longevity so those that's the top level that's easy uh in my view and obvious even though most people don't do it do you mention eating less you mentioned the mediterranean diets which i think we should just expand upon a little bit there to find out what you mean when you say that and then i want to come to exercise can we just start with the mediterranean diet um what do you mean when you say that and what is that based upon yeah well your food should look more like a rabbit's dinner than a lion's meal put it that way vegetarianism is great i can't do that i like meat but when i eat meat it's small portions and it's usually fish or shellfish sometimes chicken and very rarely red meat and not a lot of it um there are carnivores who are promoting a carnivorous diet mostly need keto now i i'm a scientist i just go by the data i don't care in fact i'd love it if meat was healthy but it's according to the science it's not there's no evidence that people who eat a lot of meat around the world are the ones that live a long time it's the smaller thinner typically women who eat plant-based diets perhaps with a bit of red wine olive oil that live the longest that's undeniable i'm just going to a nursing home and have a look it's not a secret so that to me says that we want to eat less eat fresh eat vegetables less meat is that because of mtor is that or is that one of the reasons where you want us to keep mtor down to promote that sort of survival signal and meat i guess another high protein foods are going to keep it up is that the rationale there yeah that's one of the main reasons exactly and uh but also that when you have less sugar in your body uh ampk and certains will be activated as well so i am very careful not very but i try not to eat excess sugar and uh and just unprocessed carbs which are everywhere including in sauces and dressings um so you have to be careful i've even gone to the point as a scientist to wear a continuous glucose monitor to see what food does to me and we don't want those spikes in sugar because they will be bad and shut down our defenses what about all your what about olive oil i've i've read in the way that olive oil i think activates situants right yes it does and so the first that's a good thing that's that's what we want yes correct now there are two ways well let's say three ways to activate certain ones one is the usual exercise and hunger will turn on those genes uh but if you want to take a supplement uh you can do it by taking resveratrol which is a plant molecule that comes mostly from red wine but you need it as a supplement you don't want to be drinking 300 glasses of red wine a day i don't recommend that but the other thing is olive oil was discovered to also activate certain enzymes um by doug marcinek who is a collaborative mind and it's really interesting right that the components of red wine and olive oil are activating this longevity enzyme directly just binding to it making it work better i find that really really satisfying as a scientist so i'm eating yeah i guess you'd say eating not drinking more olive oil in the morning i used to have yogurt now i often have a little bit a few teaspoons of olive oil the reason that i have olive oil and or yogurt is that resveratrol and some other plant polyphenols that we can talk about are highly insoluble once you pull them out of the plant and process them they're the equivalent of trying to eat brick dust now and that's a mistake a lot of people make they think they can just have a glass of water and take resveratrol it won't get absorbed so i mix those together dissolve them and then have that and i know from clinical trials that i did in the 2000s that that works um other polyphenols quercetin um there's um we discovered all of these extended life span back in the 2000s we first showed it in yeast and then worms it's been forgotten by by most people but that's where it first came from now why would these plant molecules make us healthier well i have a theory called xenohermesis which is xeno means from other species and hormesis we've discussed what doesn't kill you makes you stronger and i think when we eat plants that are making these molecules particularly when they're stressed out they don't get enough water or too much sunlight or bugs are eating them they make these defense molecules to survive but we ingest them and then we get that signal that our food supply might run out and in that way we get the benefits as well yeah and so the combination of uh not eating as much exercising and taking plant molecules that stimulate adversity i think that's the winning bet that's stage one and stage two these sort of stressed out plants you know it's it's really i love that i love that theory that that will be a signal to us that food may be going away or there may be a problem and we need to also activate this survival signal as well um this presumably is why i guess organic food potentially which doesn't have pesticides are also going to have to work harder to get that xeno-hormetic stress signal more from organic foods do you think than non-organic foods we are we are and and so if you can afford it it's better to eat food that's been grown outside the uh the typical uh greenhouse so that if you look at a lettuce that's grown i'll single out california but you know a lettuce that you buy that's watery and not very green that's the worst that's a plant that has been grown in the equivalent of a uh a movie theater with popcorn you don't want to eat those you want to go for the ones that are being picked on and full of color color molecules come on at the same time as these polyphenols and yeah and and have them picked when they're when they're uh thirsty or had a lot of sunlight and yeah organic is the easiest way to do that another way is to eat locally or even grow your own you mentioned before that you're a scientist you like to look at the data you don't see any long-living communities around the world having high levels of meat consumption of course keto uh is a very popular diet and not only is it popular there's no doubt that many people feel incredible benefits in the short term possibly even the median term from eating that way whether it's reversal of you know reversal or remission of type 2 diabetes better energy better focus um all kinds of benefits that that clearly feel good to that individual so they want to continue eating that way do you feel that there is a trade-off sometimes between short-term health and how we feel and long-term longevity um because it does seem that you're saying people to eat less i know you say you've got used to it you have more energy but some people may say well do i need to sacrifice my short-term life and vitality to have that long-term longer lifespan well no people who eat the way i do uh are known to have just as much if not more energy than people who are eating uh ketogenic diets now that ketogenic diets on their own aren't aren't horrible ketosis can be a great state to be in but here's the problem we know that there's a trade-off your body either wants to grow and repair or hunker down and survive it switches depending on how much and what you're eating we know this because if you change something that is alterable in response to the environment such as growth hormone uh growth hormone gives the body the signal to on this side grow and repair um and then when you don't have a lot of growth hormone you don't grow and you know you hunger down and you actually survive longer this has been done ad nauseum in worms in mice and even in human populations that have mutations in the growth hormone receptor are a little bit shorter but apparently highly protected against diseases of aging so this is a paradigm in our field okay growth and reproduction versus hunkering down and living wrong now if you're eating a lot of meat taking testosterone shooting yourself up with growth hormone you will feel great right your your body is in the the growth mode but that's at the expense of long-term survival think of it as burning the candle at both ends instead what i prefer is to be in the energetic mode but also have my body protect itself daily from the ravages of of aging and so i feel just as great as i would if i was eating a lot of meat uh because now i'm used to it but my body is defending itself in a way that eating a lot of meat and taking those hormones would actually suppress yeah so fascinating so interesting to think about this through that lens um exercise you well a couple of things to say on exercise uh you know i went for a walk before this conversation and i was thinking is some of the way we've done research so far through the old paradigm lens so what i mean by that is you know a lot of research shows us that you know walking 30 to 45 minutes a day seems to give us all the kind of health and longevity benefits we might want but i'm wondering is that through the old lens where we thought aging is inevitable and therefore walking 30 to 40 minutes a day is simply just doing the best that we can within that paradigm whereas if you look at it through your lens that actually aging is not inevitable sure you know maybe walking is helpful but maybe it's not enough so what is your perspective on movement exercise and how that fits in to your kind of theory and philosophy on aging yeah well probably for me to say don't walk and don't move that that's step one if you don't walk or move then you're in big trouble when you get older um so that's a minimum but if we're talking about what's what's not maximum but optimal we don't know that for sure and it might be everyone's different but in general losing your breath is important high intensity exercise you don't need a lot i just mentioned 10 minutes a few times a week that appears to be sufficient to give you the longer term health benefits and what's probably going on is in part is that we well we discovered and we published this in 2018 in the journal cell if anyone wants to look it up that old muscle starts to think that it doesn't have enough oxygen even though there is enough oxygen and it shuts itself down and doesn't make a lot of energy and the blood vessels start to be depleted and it's a just a terrible feed-forward process after that so by making your body hypoxic and giving it a stress both in the you can actually do excess oxygen or lack of oxygen just you just want to shock the system then your body gets to reset um and and one of the most popular things to do in the longevity world now is uh what is it high pressure bariatric oxygen therapy and that i think is also resetting this uh this problem that our bodies have with a uh what we call pseudo hypoxic one of the ways that we could reset that without exercise and without high pressure oxygen chambers was using nmn this molecule that i take it actually boosted the body's ability to make new blood vessels that restored the the ability to measure oxygen in the muscle um and when we gave it to mice they could run 50 further without having trained but the good news is well you know the important point is that the mice that were young and exercised and got the molecule in their water ran twice as far so it's it shouldn't be an excuse to pop a pill and not do anything but there are some little changes you can make i lift weights i have them around my house i i'm at a standing desk which goes up and down here these are changes that i make that um i'm standing most of the day now and this will really help it builds the muscles in your leg and your butt and your back that's important now especially for a male my age where i'm losing one percent muscle if i don't do something about it every year but also the hormones testosterone comes from having those large muscles uh signal to the testes and i've been able to correct and raise my testosterone levels just by keeping those large muscles in shape there's so much to dive into there it's incredibly fascinating that potentially to get these longevity benefits that you're talking just maybe 10 minutes of this kind of pulsed exercise where we're out of breath so high intensity interval training several times a week which is very achievable even for the busiest person out there so i i find recommendations like that really really inspiring because you know eating less exercising 10 minutes several times a week you know a lot of people think health and wellness is the preserve of the wealthy the middle class all kinds of things like that and i know there are certain things which do cost money but it's also refreshing to know that there are lots of things that actually can be done completely free of charge you know eating less is actually saving you money right then uh been eating three meals today but you know there's a couple of points around exercise which i really want to dive into one of them is as you say at your age you're losing one percent muscle mass uh each year uh if you don't do something about it i think that starts at the age of 30 for most of us so what's when i think about that and i think about mtor and protein i had this like clash in my head whereby we know that sarcopenia this loss of muscle mass is a problem as one gets older risk of falling problems after that all kinds of things happen when we lose that muscle mass so a lot of the recommendations around fighting sarcopenia are to do with yes resistance training but also the amount of protein you are consuming to make sure you're limiting how much that happens yet at the same time we're sort of suggesting that to increase our aging we should be limiting our protein intake help me help us see through that apparent contradiction well yeah i'm not saying limit protein intake at all i get plenty of protein um just mostly from plant-based sources where there's not a lot of the branched chain amino acids those leucine isoleucine valine amino acids are the ones that activate mtor um and so yeah focus on plants you'll have enough protein to build muscle i have no no trouble building muscle um that that it's a fallacy that you need to be eating you know these protein shakes and meat you get stronger and to build muscle now if you want to professionally build muscle by all means go for it but for most of us who just want to feel good look good live longer what i'm recommending doesn't affect your ability to do those things and and build up muscle one bit and there's it's also a fallacy that older people cannot build up muscle my father who's 82 has built up a lot of muscle he goes to the gym twice a week he runs he hikes and he literally is stronger than me um and he says he hasn't felt this good since he was in his 30s though he does say that he probably felt like crap when he was 30. even then even if he did feel like crack when he's in his 30s that's a pretty powerful thought isn't it that someone in their 80s can be quite confident in saying doesn't matter how i felt my face i'm feeling better on my 80s and my 30s that is that's incredible right it's it's not something to be sniffed at that is something that is not the norm in society it's not what people expect people think it's an inevitability that we're going to get slower more tired our memories going to go and i don't buy that first of all i've seen that there are many things we can do to mean that's not an inevitability but i think you take it that you take it even further and and you're showing very clearly that that does not have to happen to everyone it's exactly right i'm not going to say my father and i are a clinical trial in fact we were just doing this mainly because we're scientists we can read the literature we're researching it um but it's a fun experiment right we've now been doing this long enough that something weird is going on my dad feels like an acts like he's 30 and i don't act or hopefully you can judge look like i'm 52. he's 82. so that's pretty interesting we'll see over the next 10 20 years what happens but he he's not a special person when it comes to life he he's an average guy he didn't like exercise he was not looking forward to the future uh he's not obsessed with his health at all and look at what happened you know he's living a life that he didn't expect at all and we're already planning going to africa after covert he's looking at life over the next 30 years i mean what 80 year old does that an eight-year-old whose son is david sinclair that's who maybe um you mentioned uh well that that there's this theme isn't there always about this hormetic stress this pulsed stress on the body that you can then recover from i can see how interval training does that um what about other forms of training now as we have this conversation i am two and a half weeks away from doing my very first marathon so i i'm gonna be running the london marathon in two and a half weeks when this conversation comes out hopefully i will have completed it i am not doing this for longevity to be really clear i'm doing it for other reasons it's something it was a challenge that was set to me i'm enjoying the process of seeing if i can do it but it's an interesting question since i have you on you know clearly running a marathon and i'm not an endura you know typically i've not been an endurance type guy so i've not done lots of stuff like this at all this is well outside my comfort zone could this be a stressor on my body that has a powerful effect when it comes to what my body then does with respect to thinking it needs to hunker down of course it's going to be highly uh individual based or could it be that it's too much of a stress you've gone past that hormetic sweet spot and it's gone into the realm of actually depending on my fitness levels and and how it fits into the rest of my life that it can actually become problematic i i'm not worried about you if you look at marathon runners uh there's a very clear uh correlation with longevity people who bike or run long distances uh do live longer in fact in the case of cycling if you do i think it was 80 miles a week your risk of heart attack goes down uh 60 a massive amount i don't know about marathons but um i i think that you'll be fine based on all the evidence yeah so um and then you mentioned with we've not spoken really in detail about elementary and i would like to but you did mention when the them the mice took it their endurance got better and and that that sort of uh rung a a kind of that really rung in my brain when you said it because i thought oh i'm doing a marathon in a few weeks as well as its anti-aging ability does it also in your experience beyond that trial have an ability to improve and increase our endurance levels well we don't know in humans yet um there's been very few studies with nmn and endurance in fact i'm struggling to think of one now we're doing it myself um over at harvard and we'll know probably early next year if this is true but i do have an anecdote um one of my now good friends ken rideout is his name he was a middle-of-the-road marathon runner kind of doing it as a hobby and i met him a few years ago and he decided to to make it his mission to see if he could use my science to improve and every few months he got faster and faster and faster and he's now 50 years old and he's the world champion for his age and often just beats the 30 year old in marathons myrtle beach was the most recent he will be in the same marathon as you uh so look out for ken right out if he wins this race he's the official world fastest 50 year old in marathons oh wow he's on anime and resveratrol um mainly and uh you know we don't have a twin as a negative control which is what we should have and it should be placebo control but absent that it's pretty interesting what we've seen happen to you so let's go into these supplements we we have of course we've covered food and exercise and how we can manipulate them to increase our longevity i do want to talk about cold exposure later on um but you've mentioned a few times that there are certain supplements that you take and other people are taking um so i wonder if we could go through them sequentially and just sort of figure out what they are um i know you've got to be careful in terms of what you are recommending or not recommending but what does the science so far suggest from you know from from what you've seen well it's a long conversation um and i work with clients on on this because it's it had to be tailored to people's blood work and age and that kind of thing but in general what i do is listed on page 304 of my book so that's the cheat sheet of lifespan uh but they fall into buckets one is the plant polyphenol cocktail resveratrol quercetin physician i mixed that in the morning this morning i had yogurt with it mixed in so you don't take them as uh as like a a capsule you wouldn't just swallow as a capsule you want the powder mixed into something like olive oil so that it's absorbed better yes yeah but there's that and then there's nmn which i take a gram of every morning uh which is water soluble i just swallow that down and then i take metformin at night um probably every other day and uh and those are the main things there's there's plenty of other things that work for me i believe um but that's a good start and i would start i'm not recommending anything of course i'm not a doctor but if i was to do it i would start slowly i would change just one or two things at a time and i would measure baseline before and after to see how you're doing because again you don't know what's happening unless you measure it um you can do inside tracker i think i'm not sure in the uk what the equivalent is but you can do inside tracker from the uk they let you upload your data for a small fee and that would allow you to see if something's going wrong uh or going right but also you can also show that data to your doctor i would recommend working closely with your doctor if you're starting to take some of this stuff even if they're just supplements i'm also working on trying to figure out how to approve or at least give education about which supplements work don't work might work which ones are pure which ones are filled with toxins this kind of thing needs to happen in the industry because every day i get asked by dozens of people tell me a brand that i can trust and i literally cannot because how would i know i'm not a nutraceutical guy i'm a scientist who works in a lab on mice yeah inside tracker is that what is that is that a like a company that specifically looks at various biomarkers and puts it into a context around aging or is it just sort of blood testing i mean what what just what is that oh so so i helped start this company about 12 13 years ago and the idea is that you measure things that give you information about wellness and health and longevity and there are 43 things that we measure some of them your doctor would never look at and they cover things like liver health inflammation blood heart muscle stress and we put that into a an algorithm that was built using machine learning and most of the world's scientific literature and 100 000 people's medical records and it it gives out recommendations on how to optimize your body not just whether you're sick or not but for you what is optimal and then how to get that to where you need to be there's a green zone and so i've kept those biomarkers of mine in in or very near to the green zone for the last 10 years um and you can see the tracking they just get better and better and better if i follow their recommendations yeah incredible i'm almost certain i'm going to be looking that up straight straight after this conversation because i'm truly fascinated uh with you know i'm very proactive with my health anyway but this sort of thing makes me think wow what what could you know what's the ceiling maybe there's a much bigger ceiling that than we initially thought um metformin metformin is a drug i have prescribed in the past on thousands of occasions and it's interesting that many people in that space of longevity or the wellness space online are talking about metformin um you know metformin does multiple things i think in the body it makes us more sensitive to insulin i wonder if you can explain why do you think metformin works for delaying the aging process but also that i'm interested that a few years ago it was a paper came out that shows that metformin i think increases the growth of akamancia mucinophilia in the in the gut microbiome what is thought to be a helpful gut bacteria and people were speculating could some of metformin's benefits be coming through the microbiome and so i'd love to understand a bit about metformin but also how the gut microbiome plays into your view on aging uh yeah well the gut microbiome is extremely important we know from studies of fish and in mice um that if you transplant young microbiota into older animals they will live longer and our microbiome changes with age there's no question about that um what we don't know is if you take young persons microbiome and give it to an older person what would happen i i would i would guess that it would be helpful but there are there are ways to optimize your microbiome part of the the reason that i recommend this diet or talk about this diet is that it does change your microbiome in ways that are healthy and it also means that when i eat a giant steak i can't cannot digest it because my body doesn't have those microbes to absorb it and process it so microbiome is extremely important and metformin does alter the microbiome the other thing that it does is it interferes with mitochondria it slightly inhibits the energy production in the body and as a result the body overreacts and makes more mitochondria to make more energy so a little bit of hermesis right a little bit that hurts you gives you this protective response and there is a a really slight downside to metformin because it inhibits energy uh you feel a little bit weaker if you've just taken it um you are you can do maybe one or two fewer reps repetitions of an exercise so there are two things to do one is just try harder and the other is to take metformin um after you've worked out yeah and uh and so that is a really easy thing to change is metformin something you think within a few years assuming you have no contraindications that like it would be hard to make a case that we shouldn't all be taking is it did you go that far in your mind as when you think about the future well i mean if it was a sensible world yeah most people over the age of 40 would be taking it it's very cheap it's very safe and if there are problems which can happen in the stomach for example it's reversible you just stop taking it uh and you do it under doctor's supervision anyway so i i take the strong view that you know in a if we were if we were a rational planet uh metformin would be given to millions of people who don't yet have type 2 diabetes but we're not rational and doctors and insurance companies are hesitant to give medicines to people who are not sick yet unfortunately my doctor uh wouldn't give me a prostate test he said you have a family history no are you sick no can i detest no why not well you're not sick well my answer to that is why why do i have to wait until i've got prostate cancer until i come see you it's similar the view now which is come see me when you're sick but that has to change and i think that having people on metformin before they get type 2 diabetes is a very sensible thing i don't know how quickly this is going to be adopted more likely it's going to be the consumer that takes it into their own hands like inside tracker and companies in the us are already with doctors involved prescribing metformin over the internet um and i think no i'm not condoning it i am just telling you a fact that that seems to be the wellness trend is that people can't wait for their doctors to read my book and to get into it and read the papers straight to companies that allow them to do so yeah it speaks to the problem you touched on multiple times in this conversation of medicine in some ways still being stuck in the dark ages or certainly in the 19th century we do wait until you're sick before we often do anything i take type 2 diabetes that we're talking about in the context of metformin you know we have these blood sugar um ranges um you know depending on which country you're in when your a1c gets to you know it can be anywhere from 4.5 or whatever it is all the way up to sort of 5.9 and it would be reported as normal suddenly it goes up 0.1 to 6. now you're pre-diabetic and 6.5 is type 2 diabetic but i know many people who they have 5.8 5.7 5.9 and it's reported as normal and the patient goes away thinking oh everything's fine so i feel in medicine we things have been quite black and white and we haven't really thought about this term optimal what is optimal you know what should we really be aiming for rather than just waiting until people get sick and you're sort of saying the same thing with aging right you're saying let's not wait until then let's get on top of this identify the root causes and tackle them early well that's exactly right it's much easier to prevent something um than to treat it once it's happened just uh right now we look at people falling off a cliff and and we another analogy that i've used is whack-a-mole medicine trying to just beat these things down as they pop up um but you know going speaking of going to the edge of a cliff it's not just important to know why someone fell off a cliff it's important to know why were they on the edge of a cliff in the first place and we ignore that first process which is really the majority of our lives and and that is changing though and i think the medical community is catching up um world health organization has declared aging a medical condition for the first time ever so there's that movement but consumers are saying that they've had enough of this approach to medicine and that having an annual checkup or waiting till you get sick is not what they're looking for and there is a booming industry inside tracker is leading but there are a lot of companies now with monitors of glucose and uh and home swabs where people are taking their own health into their own hands now physicians and maybe yourself are saying wow we're all going to die if people are diagnosing themselves but that's really not the point they want to get some data on themselves they want to know how they're doing which they cannot get anywhere else and the fascinating thing is that that data is quality insidetracker uses the same testing companies that the doctors use here and my doctor for example loves that data i show him the graphs and he makes better decisions because of it but he cannot afford or the insurance company will not pay for everybody to have that level of testing so if you'd rather give up a cappuccino a day and rather have a look inside your body that's the trade-off and i choose to look inside my body and just make my own coffee at home yeah i'm all for patients getting empowered and having more information um i i've i've you know never been worried about patients empowering themselves or even this whole idea of um google searches you know i i sort of talked to you know we've got a training course for doctors about lifestyle measures they can adopt with their patients and one of the things i i teach is i i say guys look what instead of being annoyed that your patients are googling things you got to embrace it you google everything in your own life why would you expect your patient would come to see you and not have google something so why not ask them what have you googled about this what what are your concerns what do you think this might be i think it's a much more open and collaborative way actually of doing medicine you mentioned foods you mentioned exercise i'd love to touch on sleep and stress to other very very important lifestyle factors so let's start with sleep when i think about your work i think about hormesis it strikes me that sleep is a is a slightly oddball because you could make the case that not sleeping well and not sleeping enough is sending your body a signal that actually that's a problem you know i need to hunker down which most of the evidence that i've seen suggests that you know getting decent amounts of sleep deep quality sleep actually helps reduce your risk of all kinds of diseases and i'm sure it's going to have an impact on aging as well right so sleep is an exception if you don't get enough sleep then you've got cortisol levels going up and it's it's very clear that if you don't sleep well you will age faster i'll give you a best example if you take if you take a rat and you deprive it of sleep for two weeks after that two weeks it will have type 2 diabetes that's how important sleep is and so think of sleep as something that's totally connected to the clock of aging so cert one is the enzyme that we work on in my lab and resveratrol and nad activate it we talked about residual talked about nad and anime now sort one is not just central to our health cardiovascular disease inflammation longevity but during the day this same enzyme controls the body's sleep wake cycle without cert one you don't sleep properly your body doesn't um have a proper circadian rhythm as it's called so what does that mean well if you disrupt your sleep you're going to disrupt your body's ability to repair itself and actually as we get older our lack of cert one which is often due to obesity and lack of exercise will make it harder to sleep normally as well and and there are plenty of people who are elderly who do not sleep well in part because their cert 1 and their nad fluctuations are out of sync and not not really high amplitude they just waddle along so what does this mean it means sleep is longevity and longevity gives you sleep sorry to interrupt if you're enjoying this conversation there's loads more like it on my channel please do press subscribe and hit that bell now back to the conversation and they're interconnected and to mess with one and not get the right amount of sleep is just going to put you on a path of aging more quickly i think i read somewhere that in your own life uh you you've had to make some changes in order to sleep better one of them being wearing blue light blocking glasses uh is that correct yeah i've never slept well without help i typically um go to bed late i've been going lately to sleep pretty late uh one two three o'clock in the morning um i had friends overseas this is my problem but but i've learned to be able to [Music] modifying my life so that i get better sleep and deeper sleep uh there are supplements there's one called l-theanine um a bit of melatonin is works well for me um but yeah i now re relax i don't read emails past 10 o'clock and i also um tend to wind down and not stress uh late at night and the blue block blue light blocking glasses have been helpful too i try not to stare at a screen and if i do i turn down the blue light on my computer and on my phone when you were talking about cert one there i also thought well actually reversing someone's age actually may also help improve their sleep right because as you get older you don't sleep so well for a variety of reasons including biological ones so it seems reasonable then that reversing the clock is actually for some people going to help them sleep better yeah right well exercise and um and a good diet really does help with sleep we see that uh what i'd like to do now is now that we can reverse the age of the brain is test if that improves the sleep wake cycle of these old mice we do know that if we feed them nmn or resveratrol they do sleep better and they have better rhythms um and so that would fit with that theory yeah let's talk about stress um a right dose of stress in the right intensity is a hormetic signal to the body so it's not that all stress is bad but many of us around the world these days live with a sort of chronic unrelenting stress from the way our lives are currently set up so what impact does chronic unrelenting stress have on our biological clock and do you have any sort of strategies as to what we might be able to do about that specifically when it comes to aging right well i i was a very stressed out kid i was always nervous had butterflies every day of my life and so i've been able to cope with that i now actively reduce my stress levels even though my daily life is way more stressful than it ever has been in any previous decade you know i've got a dozen companies i've got millions of dollars to lose that i've invested i've got a big lab to run i'm writing another book this is a lot of stress but i don't get stressed i've managed to cope with it and one of the big things that i've learned with my old age older age is that nothing's as bad as you think and my mother died in front of me from suffocation and at that moment i realized that if nobody died today that i know of uh it's a great day and that's how i live life i'm happy to get up in the morning i'm still alive i'm excited about what i do um and that's a conscious thing i think my default would be to be mopey and depressed and lack energy so anybody who feels that way find a purpose realize that life is here to be enjoyed every day is a blessing we don't get that many days um and you can actively fight to be excited about life rather than pessimistic but you have to focus on the positive it doesn't come naturally to most of us a lot of the work of yours that i've read is around the biological process of aging you know what is going on in the cell how can we change that how can we improve things but there's another side to living as well isn't that there's the more i guess spiritual uh side to life which many people start to connect with as they get older what is the point of life what is the meaning of life and you sort of touched upon a bit of that there and i find that really interesting because you're someone who is as i said at the beginning completely changing the way that we view the inevitability of aging i know this past summer uh i had a lot of death in my family within a few weeks auntie's uncles which really caused me to reflect on what doesn't mean to actually be alive and i wonder for you david someone who's right at the forefront of longevity research what is studying aging what is studying delaying death taught you about what it actually means to be alive right well it's a this is what uh i think everybody should try to do and that is to consciously think about your death every day it's it's scary right if you imagine your funeral or even worse imagine your last 10 minutes of life what that's going to be like will you have regrets will you be surrounded by family what will people say about you when you're gone i think about that a lot because it's in my job i'm working on ways to not prevent but slow that eventuality and what i've ended up doing in my life is being much more cognizant of the brevity of life when i was in my 20s like all 20 year olds we think the future is so far away you don't even worry about your mortality uh tell you what by the time you get to 50 you can actually see that there are fewer days potentially than you've lived already so that that happens to everybody but try if you're young try to live life like every day counts but one saying i hear that it's a jewish saying but one that i think of often is i do live my life like it could be my last but i have the optimism of someone who can live forever and that's really the secret it's to be excited but realistic that you may not be here tomorrow so tell your loved ones that you love them make the most of every day work hard on what you find passion in um and just be energetic and if you do take control of your life mentally and physically eating the right things doing the right things reducing stress you will naturally be more optimistic about the future and every day that you wake up we know that having a strong sense of meaning and purpose is associated with longer happier lives we know that loneliness is an epidemic that was a huge problem pre-covets and for many people has become a lot worse over the past 18 20 months or so where does this all fit in to your model of aging because let's say you're doing all the right things with respect to these three pathways that have been identified you know sichuan's mtor ampk yet at the same time you're lonely so your body is in a state of stress because it's isolated and you know on an evolution level that means you're prone and vulnerable to attack so you activate the stress pathways in your body or you don't have a sense of meaning and purpose you know where does this sort of fit in with us changing and taking control of our biology whereas i guess these are the the kind of softer components uh to life which i think are the actually the really important parts of life they're essential that there's a study from harvard that was done in the 20th century looking at people's lives war veterans and the people that had a partner who cared for them deeply they were the ones that lived the longest in fact it was more important than any other component in their lives was having someone who cared for them emotionally and i guess at the end of life physically so if you're lonely i think that it's one of the the fastest way to age and loneliness is an epidemic right now uh it's just getting worse so what are the solutions well we have the internet at least we can be in touch with people we can get we can have pets a lot of people bought dogs and cats recently to overcome that uh and if you have divorce try to cope with it and then find someone new if you have a job that you don't have a purpose in you hate your job most people do if you have a long life then you have a chance to retrain you have a chance to do multiple careers like my father did i call these pauses in life skilled battles in fact i think the governments should be paying for them so really what i'm talking about is try not to fall into the the trap of being isolated get out there find friends connect with people even if it's through the internet because loneliness as you mentioned is a very dangerous thing long term are there any critics of your work david are there many people saying we shouldn't be doing this this is not what it means to be human and i'm particularly drawn to this i was rereading your book over the last couple of days and there's a very poignant part of the book where you mention at the time of writing i think your eldest daughter alex was 16 and you wrote about how she was sort of questioning your work and questioning in a world which is struggling with all kinds of problems and the climates and you know the environments and it seems to have really really struck you that your eldest was actually questioning this incredibly important work you're doing so i'm interested as to do you ever have doubts do you ever think man i'm actually barking at the wrong tree here um but also how your view and maybe if you're willing to share how your doors have you may have may have evolved over the last two or three years oh that's that's one of the best questions i've been asked in recent memory i also had my wife was telling me that what i was doing was unethical so it's been tough um and i've had a lot of critics on the science side and the ethics so i've had to grow a thick skin i wasn't born with it so let's just focus on alex alex is now 18 and went off to college a few weeks ago alex inherited the fu gene just like i do i'm a rebel i i always go against what people say i'm a scientist they're a scientist in in training they have changed their mind in fact just in the last week alex has started work on longevity at uh uni at the college she's there at the um uh university of rochester in new york and without me saying anything signed up for a lab that studies the longevity the um the remarkable longevity of the naked mole rat which can live 30 years instead of a rat which is a few years and i just posted on instagram a few days ago a picture of alex with thumbs up in the lab having just uh fed and washed and uh removed the bedding of those naked mole rats and i can't remember being so proud of of one of my kids as that moment when they were fighting everything that i did uh and then without me doing anything said okay i give in i'm gonna work on this too yeah incredible um i can just see the pride and the excitement in your face as you as you recount that story um how do you how do you really feel you know when people attack you um you said you've grown a thick skin because i i guess if you think about your work on the outside it could be you know can this man and his team and other teams around the world help us live to 120 hundred thirty hundred forty hundred fifty i mean i don't if you you know what is a reasonable human lifespan based upon the work you've done but but there's also like a an under under layer which for me is in some ways even more fascinating which is if aging is the root cause of all problems that come in to see me as a doctor and afflict humanity well if we can just sort of tackle that right you know turn the tap off how many lives do we improve no matter whether their lifespans are 80 90 70 100 actually the quality of all of those lives is going to be so much better and enhanced irrespective of that final age right yeah it is i don't want to get too emotional but the way you described it is is really what i'm living my life to to achieve and that is that we will be in a world where there's much less suffering and a lot more happiness joy and productivity the economy will boom and families will be happier and it's just going to be a much better world and when we reach that world and maybe it's only 10 years away we'll look back at today and think why did we ignore this for so long and it warms my heart that that you and many other doctors and the public uh probably close to a million people around the world now have read my book and you know change the way they think about their lives the course of their lives what they can do that they can actually change the costs of their lives pretty easily um and when this becomes a global phenomenon and if it is it's really taking off around the world that millions of lives are going to be improved just by simple things not not even to mention these high-tech things that we're working on what what do you think is a reasonable age that most humans could realistically hope to live to based upon what you've seen so far yeah um well what i've been allowed to say publicly has changed over time too um five years ago when i stood up up on a stage at stanford university uh i said for the first time age reversal and this was talking about the mice that were on a treadmill which clearly was age reversal there's no question about it but those two words it was they'd never been said before in public by a scientist now it's all anybody talks about it's only been five years so that's a long way of me saying um a i'm i'm more comfortable saying numbers that before my colleagues would write emails telling me i'm i'm damaging the reputation of our field um i once said the first human to live to 150 has already been born and that has been sent by a lot of people now i actually got an email from someone i respect who said you cannot say that stop it it's embarrassing now they say it you know it's so it's funny in five years how much has changed so what do i really think um i think that just an extra 15 years of life is easy if you just don't smoke don't drink eat the right things eat less get good sleep don't stress out you'll go to exercise that gets you 15 years more of life that's we already know that that's not hard imagine if everybody did that on the planet or at least you know in in advanced countries where you know they have the time and money to do so that that's hundreds of millions of people uh if not billions but then on top of that we've got drugs like metformin rapamycin there's others uh there's one called carbos there's a spermidine one there's a long list and if those are used i am quite confident that we can add more years on then there's the age reversal technology that we just discovered that could change everything so what's realistic i think if you do the right things you should be able to make it to 100 if you're lucky you know you everyone's unlucky can be unlucky cancer can hit you but uh our bus can hit you but i think 100 is a realistic goal um i think i should be able to reach that with what i'm doing uh but what about beyond now we know that humans can live to 120. why couldn't we all just we have to level the playing field and give us those uh advantages that they had and typically the people that live to 120 don't look after themselves they don't exercise they smoke they uh they overeat so what would have happened to their lives if they did do the right things why couldn't those people have lived two hundred and 130 you know so that's why with all of this and i haven't even talked about resetting the age of the body polishing those scratches why 150 is not unreasonable for somebody to reach someone who lives to 150 or at least over 100 who's born today will live into the 22nd century we can't even imagine what the technology is going to be like then it'll make the kind of things we're talking about now seeing medieval the same way that the world was pre-antibiotics um so i you know i'm optimistic i'm often classified as someone who's overly sanguine but you know so far i haven't been proven wrong in any of my predictions i haven't been proven wrong in any of my scientific publications you know so we'll see and i've put them on record in my book yeah you certainly haven't it's a phenomenal read i really would recommend everyone have a copy to get through it because it's just so fascinating that and you have an incredible writing style you clearly have a deep love of history and storytelling which makes it a very fun reads but that's an incredible thought that a person who is going to live to 150 has already been born i just want everyone to sit with that for a minute because i think that's such a powerful statement and let's talk about some of this age reversal technology so you have touched on it you've hinted at it a couple times in this conversation so what is going on there and how soon do we think this might be i guess more widespread than just the small research trials all right well the thing to know really is that the world has shifted after that we published this paper in december it's become the most downloaded paper at least in the last 12 months in the journal nature i think it's 80 000 downloads at this point which is massive 20 billion dollars have been already uh collected to invest in this area of reprogramming and aging research 20 billion and it's just the beginning this is private money and sovereign wealth now i could get hit by a bus tomorrow but the wheels are in motion that make it certain that this is not an if but a win that we can reverse the age of the body with a treatment now right now the treatment is a gene therapy in the patients that we're going to treat it's going to be a very quick injection into the eye we're going to introduce three embryonic genes into the retina and the optic nerve turn them on for three to eight weeks and if we're right the age of the eye and those nose will go backwards in time they will be 75 or so younger and that will be rejuvenated and work again and people will get their vision back if everything goes to plan and that the first patient we're going to do is probably in 2024 uh we're already treating non-human primates this month after extensive safety studies in mice that look really great we haven't seen any evidence of cancer being promoted anywhere in the mouse which is great because that's that's the biggest possible downside is to if we take the body back too far it might get actually more developed cancer but that doesn't happen the way we do it is using three embryonic genes called osmk for short and using those three we found that there's a barrier to going too young and we don't get cancer and that's just that's just fortunate that biology works that way and we think we're tapping into an ancient mechanism that other species use to grow new limbs and to heal and to regenerate their brain like a salamander would or a jellyfish and we're finally using those advanced biologies in our own adult life that's the plan i don't really know what to say it's so mind-blowingly incredible to hear that and i guess this would i mean the implications for everything like alzheimer's neurodegenerative disease uh all kinds of different conditions it's just incredible right well we we only chose the eye because it was an interesting challenge and gene therapies are already approved for the eye but we're ticking off the tissues we've done the whole mouse uh it was fine uh no cancer we've done muscle skin uh we're doing hearing we're doing spinal cord injury we can regrow nerves in the eye we're going to re hopefully regrow them in the spine the heart can be rejuvenated we've already reversed the age of the brain in the mouse and they get their ability to learn back we haven't found a part of the body that doesn't respond to reprogramming polishing the scratches so yeah i think every branch of medicine will this is potentially going to be useful for um joints i mentioned right now there's not much you can do for osteoarthritis except steroids we think that we can regenerate entire uh joints by reversing the age of those tissues same for the immune system why not rejuvenate the body and we wouldn't have a pandemic if that were the case do you have to do different organs separately because i'm just sort of imagining in my head that i don't know let's say i was 60 years old and we reversed the age in my i don't know joints to let's say 55 but my eyes had degenerated and they were sort of the eyes of a let's say a 70 year olds so i've got super great joints but my eyes were still at my chronological age or even older do you see what i'm getting at do you have to do it all separately to sort of sync up everything in the body or can one thing actually do multiple organs at the same time well based on the the publication that we just put out we can treat an entire mouse with this uh gene therapy uh with no downsides um and others have shown that that rejuvenates spleen and liver um so i think that if we've got a bit of luck here we should be able to have one treatment that can rejuvenate the body now in the lab we isolate tissues we like to study them individually because we grow them in the dish as well but i am just as interested in whole body rejuvenation as i am in individual tissues um of course the easiest way to make a drug which is what i'm trying to do is to focus on one particular part of the body and fix that first because the government regulators prefer that you know otherwise they're worried about safety issues um so that's why i'm doing an iterative approach but you know mark my words my goal is to rejuvenate and it looks like it's going to be possible to rejuvenate the entire body with one treatment and it may not be a gene therapy 10 years from now it could just be a course of you know some pills that you take what does the world look like david where humans can reverse their age potentially indefinitely on multiple occasions sort of knock the clock back let's say i don't know let's say every human could live to 150 thought experiment in a world where people are already saying that we have too many people to be able to sustain life in a way that we would like to is there a case to be saying that kind of we shouldn't be doing this or have you thought it through as to if we can prolong the age of multiple humans across the planet like this you know what does the world look like what might it look like in your view the analogy that i use in my book is old london from the early 1800s where charles dickens kind of world where there's horse poop on the streets and kids running around that haven't had a bath for a year child labor and if you ask somebody then if you tripled the size of london what would happen they'd say oh the color outbreak and the river is going to be more polluted and horse manure up to our necks well if you look at london today that didn't happen why because we engineered our way we science the crap out of it and we've stopped cholera we don't have horses we have sanitation and we stop kids from working so that's that there are solutions to everything and even if there are more people uh i think we can live with much less impact on the planet we are already we're moving to battery and solar and wind and we're getting getting there but the important point actually two important points one is that we're not going to be overpopulated if you do the math rather than just use your gut uh and i've done the math we're not going to be overpopulated um we can't all live forever and that's not going to happen in our lifetimes but even if we were to stop aging today the population growth rate would still be one or two percent now we're not stopping aging of course we're just delaying diseases which is what all medical research is trying to do by the way um but the numbers are the following that we're going to level out at 10 billion people on the planet and it's going to start coming down already developing countries africa are greatly slowing their rate of growth in terms of population europe is a negative america usa is negative australia's negative if it wasn't for immigration so humans naturally don't replace themselves right so what do you do well you can fill that with people who are more productive now the second point is productivity we calculated that the value just to the us economy by extending lifespan just by one year which we could easily do if everyone read my book that would happen that would be a value to the us economy of 38 trillion dollars over the next decade if you extend lifespan healthy lifespan by 10 years which i get again we can do that would be 365 trillion dollars now okay those are big numbers but what does that mean that's more important than stopping military spending these are numbers that can be put to solving most of the world's problems where you know if it if it would include climate change education that's a lot of money saved rather than squandering it on keeping people alive in nursing homes where we basically kept their heart beating but their brains have gotten old that's the worst way for us to practice healthcare and it's extremely expensive yeah i mean what you said there i guess that's what all treatments are trying to do is delay aging and you're absolutely right of course but then also you know you said earlier that the simple things eating less eating healthier moving a bit um you know not smoking these things you said could give us an extra 15 years so to give us an extra one year which will give all these savings you just then think why are governments not more aligned with this because the way diets are promoted you know highly processed diets that really aren't uh health promoting in any way they're sort of disease promoting uh it seems like the incentive system is all kind of skewed and messed up and is that something you're trying to tackle as well by presenting this data yes i'm trying to overcome uh the human's desire for sedentary lifestyle and consumption and laziness we evolve this way because it conserves energy and we enjoy sitting around we enjoy eating that's important if you're going through feast and famine if it's always a feast and you don't even have to exercise and your suitcases have wheels on them then this is a world where that is going to kill you or accelerate your aging but we we love sweet things we love being lazy we love watching movies eating sweet popcorn eating fat that's what our brain responds to but that's just dopamine right that that's not what's good for us in this today's world and the reason that we are in such trouble uh is that we are a capitalist society and companies goal is to sell more stuff to us and so they know what gets us excited they know that we will respond to dopamine on our phones and sweet food and salty and they make food that is perfectly setting those triggers off ketchup perfect food for making you feel comfort and stimulating your dopamine but high fructose corn syrup the worst one of the worst foods you can eat so in capitalist society we we've got this force and governments find it very hard to regulate because their view particularly in the u.s is that markets will determine what's best for the customer and for the population which clearly isn't always the case you mentioned high fructose corn syrup earlier on you mentioned the benefits of olive oil on situants um you know one of the common things that are used to cook foods in these days are seed oils whether it's you know sunflower oil i guess rapeseed oil corn oil um have you done much research as to how these things impact aging nobody has actually um i think it would be a great area to study and uh clearly there are some oils that are particularly bad um the the saturated ones and the hydrogenated ones are known but in the context of aging the closest thing that people have come to is to look at the various fatty acids um you know dha dha for example from fish yeah those are very healthy even for mice but it we really haven't looked into it as a field and i think we should i've actually i switched my supplement from a fish oil to one that has more oleic acid yeah and oleic acid is the one that activates sort one and you find it in olive oil and avocados but again it's a guess that that's optimal for me uh again we we always need more research this is a fact of life but the sad thing is the government in the u.s spends a fraction of one percent of the research budget on aging the biology of aging and i think that really needs to change because they're ignoring the major cause of diseases in this country just to start closing down this conversation uh david i um i didn't want to touch on cold exposure if possible you we started off this talking about hormesis and you know what doesn't kill you makes you stronger how does cold or cold and heat fit into that and what sort of recommendations do you have for people with respect to longevity well when i was writing my book my editor said you should put this cold therapy in and saunas and i rolled my eyes i wanted to write a really scientifically based book but i looked into it anyway and actually found that there was decent scientific evidence that both of these approaches could work um in saunas because the saunas have been around since pre-roman times there's a there's more evidence that they're good for you there are finnish studies in from finland looking mostly at men um for whatever reason so the finnish typically sort of bathe as they call it a few times a week they have them at home and it's very clear that the more times you go in the sauna per week the less cardiovascular disease and heart attacks you have as a man i don't know about women but probably the same and so that i think that raising the core body temp well not corbett the surface and lung temperature of your body may induce hormesis we know heat shock proteins that come on with heat can extend lifespan of animals so that makes sense and on the cold side we don't know as much about that it's it's more recent but we do know that cold does induce what's called brown fat which we have on our shoulders and back only discovered 15 years ago to exist in adults babies have it because they don't shiver they actually use their brown fat to stay warm and brown fat is very healthy metabolically it burns energy it's got lots of mitochondria and it's thought that the brown fat secretes little molecules in the bloodstream that's helping the rest of the body so there is some evidence that being cold and shocking your body that way is also increasing hormesis um there's a certain called so two and number three so three and that one is induced dramatically in levels by cold uh and so again just more evidence that putting your body into adverse conditions the way we used to live before we had air conditioning and heating uh can really be beneficial is that something you try and implement in your own life based upon what you've read now i used to uh pre-covert i used to go to the gym and i would dunk myself in in a cold water bath and go in the sauna and repeat that i loved it i haven't gone since uh the pandemic but i want to get back into it for sure yeah it's incredible i spoke to a doctor roger schwell recently on the podcast and he was sharing other research showing how this sort of hot cold therapy can have a remarkable effect on our immune system and our ability to fight off infection so you know all these i guess we have one human body right if the immune system is working better it's probably a good thing it's probably going to help us delay aging uh so i guess more evidence there to support that david it's been a just an utter joy talking to you i've waited a long time to speak to you i'm really really so grateful to have the opportunity to pick your brain and share your work with my audience um this podcast is called feel better live more when we feel better in ourselves we get more out of life and i wonder if right at the end here at this conversation you could leave my listeners or viewers with you know what are some of your best tips some of your kind of practical wisdom a lot of it you've shared already but just to bring it together at the end but also for anyone who's skeptical anyone who thinks come on you know should we be doing this can we really do this uh what what are your final thoughts to my audience well i wrote in my book that we all have a choice and we all have the power to live healthier for longer and some people say well why should i well my view is that you have a family i assume many of us have children you don't just have a right to live longer you have a responsibility to your children to stay healthier for longer otherwise it's extremely selfish putting yourself into a nursing home and getting sick at a young age your kids want you around and you don't want to be a burden on them so i would i would think of it that way which is if you don't want to do it for yourself do it for your kids that's one the second is it's not that hard and it works eat less often eat the right foods move a little bit even if you need to walk or stand up try to lift a few weights or do yoga or pilates these are the easy things if you smoke that is the fastest way to accelerate your epigenetic clock and scratch up that cd so if you like listening to scratched up cds and music that sounds like crap by all means you know keep smoking but i'm i'm an advocate for quitting my mother died of lung cancer and it was a horrible death i watched her suffocate in front of my eyes and i got to whisper through her ear that she was the best mum i could have wished for please quit smoking if you smoke use any method that you can um same with alcohol a little bit is okay red wine is even better but don't overdo that either so that's what i'm saying is that we have the tools right now to live years and i would say decades longer and that the science that's coming along is just remarkable in the same way that we've now seen the wright brothers fly and we're looking forward to seeing commercial air flight the concorde and even space travel that's going to happen in our lifetimes i'm certain of it and it's really the most exciting time to be alive that i could imagine happening and we're way ahead of schedule in terms of technology than i thought i'd see in my lifetime david you're an incredible human being your work is literally transforming the world thank you for making time to come on the show and uh i hope i get to meet you in person at some point that'd be great i'll give you the willy wonka tour of my lab it's been great to be on thank you if you enjoyed that conversation i think you are really going to enjoy the one with professor shane omara it is right here give it a click and let me know what you think and click here to download my super practical free breathing guides our bodies and brains need movement the brain changes dynamically in response to what you do to it if you leave it it tends to atrophy

Channel: Dr Rangan Chatterjee

Views: 1,320,831

Keywords: the4pillarplan, thestresssolution, feelbetterin5, wellness, drchatterjee, feelbetterlivemore, ranganchatterjee, 4pillars, drchatterjee podcast, health tips, nutrition tips, health hacks, live longer, age in reverse, self help, self improvement, self development, personal development, motivation, inspiration, health interview, david sinclair interview, reverse your age, harvard professors, david sinclair speech

Id: GSkkBkMcwdY

Length: 125min 28sec (7528 seconds)

Published: Wed Oct 13 2021