Resistance Podcast #194: Thoughts on Traditionis Custodes w/ Fr. Ripperger & Ryan Grant

we've been fighting a long time and we have all lost so very much so many loved ones gone that you are not alone there are pockets of resistance all around the planet we are at the brink you have no idea how important you are if you're listening to this you are the resistance [Music] [Music] people [Music] welcome everybody steven says for dylan coming at you with ryan grant and father ripper two guys you probably heard once or twice before on the channel the talk about guardians of the galaxy oh i'm sorry that's a different podcast uh my bad back to the thing pope francis issued a monopropio a couple weeks ago you may have heard of it guardians of tradition father ryan welcome good evening wherever whenever you are and uh how are you all doing uh well thanks for inviting me that's uh i'm doing good busy everybody in their dog has been asking me what my thoughts are on uh pretty soon as custody so i figured well we can talk about it we're doing fine i would be doing great except for the fact that cbs just renewed that little rap kurtzman to produce more modern star trek to completely ruin and desecrate everything that more talented and intelligent people did with the old trek and so that soured my mood for about the whole week guys we can't be laughing about this is a serious conversation i know [Laughter] there you go all right so father tell us what is the uh basically what is the gist of this we're gonna go paragraph by paragraph i think you is the the goal and just go talk about the document yeah i mean i think there's some individual paragraphs i'll just make some general observations first um the first is about 14 years 14 15 years ago i read an article by richard mcbryant of unhappy memory and he had said that all these seminarians coming out of the seminary are much more conservative they like latin mass this is not a good thing and something has to be done about it and it was at that point i began to realize that as time goes on as these people get closer to um basically dying and that their project gets to the point where it's going to start being undone by the younger clergy coming up the only way they're going to be able to maintain what they've done is becoming more draconian in their imposition of what has occurred in the last 50 years and so i we're just this document is draconian i mean i think that's one of the best ways to actually describe it um even um from some of the commentaries i've read by neoconservatives and even some of the liberals were scratching their heads saying this was a little heavy-handed um and so i'm not a bit surprised by uh by any of it when i was reading through it uh a couple of things kind of stood out the first is um much of what i was i would say has already been said by most commentators um we'll kind of see this as we go through it especially the canonical aspect of it or the legal aspect of what it binds and what it doesn't bind i think too many people overreacted initially and now unfortunately some some of the stuff i've been reading more recently people are starting to realize it's a little bit more a little bit more restricted than it was that than people's initial reaction to it was but um but i think that it uh the thing that kept striking me were two things one is contradiction throughout it which i'll be pointing out there's stuff that's in here that's actually contradictory and then there's um if you understand it properly and then there's also um uh in addition to the uh contradiction whoever wrote it did not appear to have a really good grasp of two things one is the actual uh tradition itself obviously but then the other part of it was um that you know back in the day you know when i was first ordained 24 years ago there were a lot of angler traditionalists and the reason they were angry is because they had been treated so badly by the powers that shouldn't be and as a result of that you had these people were basically angry people and it you know even when i would go into parishes usually my first homilies when i first started the place was we have to have charity it charity has to be the foundation of everything because you're going to run people off you're not going to attract people the old mess without charity and people by and large would come up to speed and once they realized that they had a normal parish life all most people would settle down i mean you always still get the angry trads here and there but by and large this is my own impression and you guys can weigh in on this my own impression is that that whole dynamic has changed the there's been such an influx of people into the traditional movement attending the traditional latin mass and um living and attending traditional latin parishes that the that uh the dynamic has changed you know there used to be a phrase the solution to pollution is dilution well this is that's what we got here there was so many people that's come into this then most of these people didn't come in under that angry the auspices of anger and that mellowed a lot of stuff out even the older trads kind of melted out a lot of at least a lot of them that i saw um in relationship to it so i think that the um the characterization now only applies to just a very few people and not generally the people attending the traditional latin mass right you see that do you see that up in your area for the most part i attend a fraternity parish i have worked in society i've seen pious 10th parishes i've been to diocesan parishes uh just the general thing is i haven't been to the novus ordo in about 16 years or so so i i've seen the gambit of traditional parishes and one of the things that i noticed when i first got involved with parishes that were exclusively traditional without anybody without anything else going on there was that you saw largely the same makeup that you saw in a diocesan parish in terms of in a diocesan parish you saw people who were just generally just kind of run of the mill with the same everything in the culture just trying to make their way um you have people that are you know super um you know they they give off the the air as being very holy they're very present at everything and hopefully they are you know you don't know um you have other people that come with they're just weird you get this guy that comes up to you about this or that that the weird thing um on the right or the left of any particular spectrum in uh the diocesan parishes for the novus ordo they're just weird and um and then you get people who are more more liberal as you might call it uh at least in terms of where it comes into the church uh disciplines and politics what have you and so in diocesan parishes and fraternity parishes and society parishes you've largely the same gambit i found is you got people who are just weird frankly then you got other people who are just normal uh as in you know the normal people you might need anywhere else that are just trying to make you work out their salvation if you're in trembling um doing their best except because they've had better formation they they're usually a little more orthodox than you find it in the no disorder but not through a defect of people in those who are just doing whatever they just need someone to lead them really frankly um and then you've got you know certain people that seem more to the left and that's both in society and in fraternity and in diocese and parishes as well as the novus ordo so what i generally find is that every single parish you go to is kind of a microcosm of what you find in the culture in our general culture people who are kind of like a baseline normal people were nuts on one side or the other yeah and whatnot so up here the only thing that i've seen that kind of disheartens me is that the number of people that want to get you know out of mass as soon as possible as soon as this document was issued and complain and make make uh you know a lot of hay after mass in the foyer or in the donut room or what have you and not enough people saying you know i'm going to spend extra time after mass to make reparation to to the sacred heart of jesus so that you know he'll he'll defend us and that he'll help us in this very difficult situation and that's the one thing that i noticed that i think kind of unnerved me it's like you know here it is the pope is kind of put out this document that largely mischaracterizes everybody here why aren't we at least you know stopping to spend more time in prayer and instead people want to yak and which is a very in my opinion anyway kind of respective of the blog culture and and so many things everyone wants to yak there's obviously a place for blogs and a place for reporting on ecclesial news and all these things i'm not saying nobody should be doing that but in general why isn't your very first instinct to say hey you know ask the priest for a holy hour so we can make reparation for this or well hey we got an adoration chapel here why don't we go and spend extra time there 15 minutes at least on sunday and or whenever during the week i'm going to make a plan to do a holy hour during the week to make extra time to make reparation for this not a lot of people are doing that a lot of people instead are taking to the social media to fed book and tweeter and all these places they don't want to complain even if the complaints are just how much prayer are you doing and there are some people that are certainly going to be caught up in there like oh yeah um i haven't really done that yeah i know for myself i've been late i was late to the party long to come to the traditional ways probably about uh mid last decade i think it was probably a little bit beforehand then i found out what it was because when my brother told me hey we're having a land mass i had no clue what that was i thought it was noah's arrow but just aladdin no no clue and uh but yeah the only time i've ever been yelled at really has been a new sort of parish actually the one i grew up in um so what i can see what father's talking about with the uh the difference in people from then and now and i think the only time i when i was at usher at mount carmel i only had one quote-unquote mad trad and i kind of most of the time it's been people that were didn't know the history that were upset about things and then you tell them how bad things were in the past then they settled down a little bit but yeah the character character was not what you see on most sundays for her for sure so father you have more on the document than uh yeah i mean i it's um there's a lot of little individual comments um uh which we can make you know observations which i can make as we go through um the actual document so so uh do you want me to just start out with it yeah go ahead and go with your first point yeah okay so in the first paragraph he says the guardians of tradition which by the way uh when ryan had texted me that custodians is actually you see it in the ball gate in reference to the guys that were um uh that when saint peter was in the uh in prison the custodians were the ones standing outside right he gets by by them because of his angel yeah so it literally claiming jailer so it's kind of interesting that that they would use that term but i mean it is and actually that's interesting because the word um uh when they it used to really annoy me when i was younger that they would refer to the uh they were stewards of the mysteries of god you're not a steward a steward is someone who comes and waits on you and brings you food or whatever the case is a custodian is one who does two things one is he protects what is sacred or protects it when they talk about the um custodians of the mystery of god mysteries of god or the constructions of the illness of identification that really the acoustics is someone who protects it from sacrilege which of course you have to wonder what their view is on that in relationship to letting politicians and stuff get involved in receiving communion etc but then the other part of it is is then as a custodian it's not his property his job is to make sure that it's passed from the one who gave it to him to the one who the one who told him who gave it to him to give it to those to whom they were supposed to give it to and so intact without any change and so it's interesting that they would start this with the word gustos without a proper i don't think a proper theological understanding of it in the sense of their guardians of the thing they're supposed to protect it and they're supposed to pass it on intact whereas saying um paul says try to be quad adam uh octopi i passed on what is first given to me so it's something which you pass on um unchanged and so i think that that's one of the first things that you see one of the first things that stood out is that they don't believe that their job is to pass on the tradition intact it doesn't mean that you can't which we can talk about a little bit later that uh minor uh changes and additions can't be made to the liturgy but the practice is that they don't see themselves as being the ones just to kind of pass the thing on um anyway so regardless of tradition the bishops in communion with the bishop rome constitute the visible principle and foundation of unity of their particular churches okay so i just want to say something about this i don't want to get too bogged down because i could basically make a statement about every line in here but um the one of the things that happened at vatican 2 is there was a sleight of hand that occurred in relationship to the principle of unity so they shifted the principle of unity because vatican one formally defined principle of unity as the papacy it's right in there it's a defined statement that the papacy is the principle of unity so and then but the bishops are a principle not the but a principle of unity and so i think trying to lump them all together is um a bit problematic on the theological level because um you can have a situation where you're in a diocese where the bishop is actually uh for all intents and purposes a heretic or someone who is erroneous theologically and you can't be in union with those things you can be immune to the office etc but the point being is is that there is this kind of shift in what constitutes the principle of unity um in there and so i think that uh and i i also see realize that he's trying to he's trying to argue pope francis is trying to argue hit this based on the idea that that the the new map the old mass is divisive it's you know and then it's fracturing the unity the church etc but we can talk to that when we get to the word uh unica later so ryan did you have any observations on the first paragraph only in as much as they're laying out this situation and going back right back to your opening comments about what father richard mcbrian said and i had a similar thing with my liturgy professor in college where he was really mad that they had allowed the the traditional mass to be used again and he didn't come out and say it exactly in this way but it more or less amounted to this um that the old mass being present was itself a judgment on the new and that's how they see it so in their own mind the fact that this thing still exists is itself a judgment on them because really the tradition is the standard of judgment to any healthy normal thinking person and so what's been received is mediating how we understand the thing we're looking at and so you judge the the newer by the older just by necessity just by reality that's what we do and you have uh this thing where you have the the new mass and then the old mass and when i first encountered the old mass actually i i was vaguely aware that before vatican 2 mass was in latin but i didn't really know much more about it and i'd only been a catholic for four years at that point so i i was kind of interested not even that much three years and then a priest who's now and now he's a priest of the fraternity peter at the time he was just a student a couple doors down for me he took me in my first traditional mass and i was like wow that was amazing and i came back and told my spiritual director all about it now if he had said oh yeah that's great i i might not have thought anything of it i might have been you know completely you know continued on oh yeah these are all both great but he was visually angry that i'd even gone he thought this was a mistake this is bad i said but this is approved by the diocese yeah it doesn't matter this is just horrible and and like you you didn't understand what you were looking at you were mystified he had this visceral angry reaction about the thing and if he hadn't given me that i might never have looked further into the issue might never have become more traditional might never have you know looked to that but because he was so angry i said huh there's something going on here that i don't quite get and what's really going on is what uh pope benedict described as the hermeneutic of rupture and realistically that's what's in the in the back of their minds when they see the traditional mass and they get worried about it and they get worried about the fact that youth are going to it they're seeing everything they work for coming to an end because everything they work for leads you back to this hermeneutic rupture which they can't yeah they can't stomach being challenged essentially so they've got to keep supporting that whether or not you can have a hermendic continuity you know again i'd leave to other people i'm not going to get into that but it's clear that at least those who are advising the holy father in this matter uh if not the holy father himself have this notion of the hermeneutic of rupture that this is a whole new thing and anything that smacks of the old is a threat to everything they support then that's what comes across to me in these first few paragraphs yeah i think that's i think that's generally true um you know i if when you get to the second paragraph there's an interesting uh phrase it says in order to support the concord and unity of the church and it goes on he says my venerable predecessors saint john paul ii and benedict xvi granted and regulated the faculty i want to talk about that word faculty to use the roman missal edited by pi john the 23rd in uh 1962. um so and then of course they make the statement in this way they intended to facilitate the creative community those catholics feel attached to some earlier surgical forms and not others that i think that's true of the initial indulge and i think it is true somewhat in relationship to benedict and someone pontification but i don't think that that was the primary reason that benedict the 16th actually put it out it my understanding is is that john paul ii had actually had a commission that was started to take a look to see if the traditional mass had ever been abrogated and they basically came back and said no now uh rat singer who became benedict the 16th was actually one of the people on that committee and so they recognized that it hadn't been abrogated but the word faculty is a very key word because it basically in it gives the impression that the ability to use the ritual is based upon them granting the priest not something that he has by right of being a priest but something that's above and beyond that because that's usually what you get when you get faculty so you have the power of the priesthood but you have to receive faculties to your confessions for example and so the word faculty has a very uh it's basically something which um it it's basically determination of permission in a certain sense so i've always found it interesting that um john paul ii in ordinance to sergeant hollis actually says that god did not give the faculty to the church to ordain women now that pre that brings up a whole series of questions theologically about whether they can be even or dangerous whether the proper matter etc but that faculty is the same kind of a use of that word in the sense that it's kind of a permission that's actually granted in a certain sense um or a power that in addition to that that's been granted like for example when you receive faculties to um confirm and things of that sort but it brings up a very interesting point historically and that is this um before the second vatican council i've only come across a glimpse of it in um in discussions that were just kind of referenced to but it would have been something that benedict would have been aware of and that is that the um the uh the actual uh that a priest there there's that there's a right that a priest hasn't by that i use the word r-i-g-h-t in relationship to the right r-i-t-e so in other words before the second vatican council there was some initial discussions in just observing the tradition of the church and recognizing that when a priest is ordained into a specific right rite he actually has a right right to save the mass that has organically developed from the time of the apostles in other words the apostles started a particular each apostle started a particular ritual we can trace back um except for the novus ordo mass which i'll mention here in a bit when we get to another paragraph but you all of the rights except for the new right can be traced back to an apostle and when you're ordained into that right it's that particular form of the liturgy that gives you the the right to say right that right rite that stemmed from that apostle so there's a a lineage it's very similar to or it's kind of connected or analogous to um bishops when a bishop is consecrated he's actually given a document from the vatican that indicates which apostle that he stems from in the in the lineage of apostolicity so that he has he knows that he actually um is connected this particular apostle the same thing is very similar in relationship to a right uh rite so basically what that means is that the apostles started a right each um the various individual rights and then they um as they organically develop the priests have the right to say that because it basically is something that comes from that particular apostle in the specific right that they're in this is one of the reasons why in order for for me like i don't have a right rite to go and say a uh like an eastern right rit unless those rights are granted to me in addition to the one that i already have by virtue of my ordination into this specific right rite so this is something that i think is is interesting is that they're they're setting up um the priests whether he can actually say a particular mass or a rite a rite of mass is based upon whether they concede he can actually say that right or not and that's not necessarily the case so and by the way there's this is not what theological note is it's it's speculation at this point it was something that they just started discussing before vatican ii but benedict i i from what i can gather benedict was aware of this and that's one of the reasons why he did he just basically let sumo and pontificum stand as it was where the priest could just say this right because that's the one that we actually extends back to the right of the apostles that's the right that extends back to the apostles and so he just kind of left it in that i think that's a theological thing that was working around in the [Music] background ryan i mean again that's a hard act to follow um but ultimately there's a there's a little bit of um so when the holy father says uh you know that the purpose of allowing the 1962 missile or the traditional latin mass or the extraordinary form or whatever you want to call it um you know he says that you know my venerable predecessor saint john paul ii and benedict the 16th granted and regulated the faculty of the roman missal um to quote facilitate the ecclesial communion of those catholics who feel attached to some earlier forms and not to others and then he adds to the next paragraphs and maybe we're leading to the next thing in line with the initiative my venerable predecessor benedict the 16th to invite the bishops to assess the application of the the samoan pontificum three years after its publication etc um you know we carried out this detailed consultation of bishops and the results have been considered etc and you know what not um benedict the 16th by his own admission in both sumo and pontificum and his accompanying letter to bishops did not issue it for the sake of you know this kind of whatever notion of unity in the church or concord or whatever he did it because it was right for the priest to be able to say the mass of tradition and he adds uh what was sacred for our predecessors is sacred also and this echoes what he said in his 1981 book feast of faith where he says it really calls into question the nature of the church if what was previously sacred for all of our fathers and predecessors is suddenly forbidden this this calls the whole nature of the church itself into question and and that's more of what he was getting at than the question of some note because if you want unity well all right we've already got these ecclesial organizations we've already got these religious orders that are offering exclusively the traditional mass and bishops in that time in 2007 hadn't sufficiently put it out there and he felt there was a right right that hadn't been properly implemented in the life of the church not even just for the faithful but for the priest himself and this is one of those things it's not just those dastardly trads who just won't go along for everything oh we got to take some priest away from his duties to service them which itself tells you something about their mindset you know will be pastoral to everybody in the world except trads and you wonder why there's this angst amongst trads right but um beside that this is something that is a right of the priest himself to be able to say because this is sacred and from the tradition this is what all predecessors you know called sacred and what does that say about us if a priest cannot say the same mass that saint robert bellermann said that saint philip neary said that uh saint charles boromeo said that i may just go on down the line of all these great saints that said that you know the mass the traditional mass we're not talking about this one little use here this one little thing here like some little custom in some local church we're talking about the universal right of mass that that all these saints said it even before trent uh that saint john capistrano said that um you know going back that saint francis the same liturgy he's exhorting bishops to say with dignity and to not allow the sacred vestments to be eaten up by moths and be in tatters when they say mass because it's an offense to her lord that's the same liturgy saint francis is talking about that we have now right in the 1962 missile and so and this is what benedict is getting as what was sacred for our predecessors is sacred for us too it wasn't for some anomalous notion of unity which the um the purveyors of what surgical destruction the purveyors of the hermeneutic of rupture who seem to be advising the holy father these are the ones that come out you know you know they have no interest in what the mass of the saints said they want to get back to the 60s and 70s that that's the that's what kind of screams to me in this particular paragraph the unity they want is not a unity that's beneficial to the church it's not what vatican ii talks about in sacramento says no innovation should happen unless it's for the legitimate good of the church um it's not based on anything that that's truly unifying in terms of our faith it's unifying in terms of their limited conception of what liturgy should be which is based on what they did in the 70s yeah i i think uh i think ryan is actually that's that's a good point because when i um in fact when i first found out that the uh that um kind of study was kind of sent out to the various bishops the impression i got from that benedict was doing it is precisely that that he thought that bishop for being too restrictive they wanted he wanted to get a general sense of how things were actually going um and i also that paragraph that you just read ryan i find interesting too because um to invite the bishops to assess the application of the voter programs for three years the results have been carefully considered um and i don't i don't want this to come off like i'm questioning the honesty and the authenticity of the holy father but the fact of the matter is that that we don't have the statistics who are the ones that were complaining about it were they were at the were the certain bishops who had always had an axe to grind against the old brass to begin with um you know i in my experience um uh you know and even among the the liberal bishops ironically a lot of times the liberal bishops actually liked uh the traditional latin mass being said because it solved problems for them because people would complain they said well here go over here and then they didn't have to listen to it anymore so some of the somebody even the liberal bishops actually liked it um the conservative bishops you know they didn't have any problem with it so but there was i think it was the impression i always had historically is that this was a select few people who really had an action right now that i might say that the liberal bishops didn't like the general tendency that it was taken but i didn't get the impression that um that they would be willing to go to this kind of a length and just shut the thing down but i could be wrong in that but i but but we basically i would like to see this actually see the statistics the actual data from the study that was done to see you know what was the demographic of those who didn't like it and those who did and we don't hear anything positive either there had to have been numerous bishops who put in and said this has been turned out to be very good for my diocese it's done this it's done that etc but we didn't hear any of that so the next paragraph at this time having considered the wishes expressed by the episcopal and haven't heard the opinion of the uh cdf and i don't now desire with this apostolic letter to press on ever more in a constant search for ecclesiastical communion therefore i have considered it appropriate to establish the following it gets into some points there yeah i mean it obviously it's again it's back to he's uh trying to hang the reason why he's doing all this on um i mean the implication is that the traditional movement or the uh at least the fact that the traditional mass is being said is essentially divisive that's that's the implication that's there or at least what appears to be implied um this first article the uh the surgical books promulgated by saint paul vi and saint john paul two and confirming the decrees of vatican ii uh now i'm going to read the original translation and then we'll go to what we found out later as the actual uh original italian if i'm not mistaken you can correct me on that um or the unique expression of alexa romney of the roman rite when i read that i said actually that statement is true in this in this sense in the sense that there is no other ritual in the church that can that has no pedigree it's unique there's no all the other rituals can at least trace themselves back to the apostle in some sense this is the only one that can't do that and so because it's literally kind of created out of nowhere now they try and imply later in the document that basically that um well it has the the first eucharistic cannon yeah okay here we have a particular problem and this is actually one of the reasons why i was a little concerned about benedict referring to the mass and as the extraordinary the extraordinary form and the traditional latin mass and the ordinary form as the new mass and the reason being is because basically it was that they're the same right rit um just different forms that's actually not true because benedict knew because he he studied liturgy beforehand and before the second vatican council it was common knowledge that a ritual was constituted by three things the offertory the canon and then the communion of the priest so those three things the rituals of those constituted the specific right so let me give you an example so the carmelite right says the same cannon that we do in the roman rite except their offertory is different and for that reason it's a different right rite so this is a it's a different right and so what i but i did say that benedict can legitimately say that they are that they're both part of the roman rite um in the sense of or the western right in that sense and so they're distinguished from the eastern rights but they're not uh but you can't say that the same right as far as the actual liturgical thing goes so but i did find that kind of interesting it's the unique expression so i don't think you can actually say that they're the same right but then we find out later that the actual word is unica if i'm not mistaken is that correct yeah that's so i'm looking at the italian right now so let me if you you will uh i'll read this um [Music] [Music] is what the italian says now unique is an english term it's it's a false friend in italian right because it's it's mitigated by the french understanding in the 15th century so when you get to lunika the soul is what that word just like in latin it's so in italian also i mean it can mean the the only and actually in italian more so than latin it means the only and that's the way that phrase is used in any way whether you're going from dante to a modern parliamentary document in italian right it means the only expression of the now this is this is where actually the more curious part um the only expression of the lexarandi of the roman right so why why are they using this term lexarandi in the way they're using it because lex harandi as everyone should know is familiar with liturgical issues in the church that phrase is drawn from a maxim that goes back to the eighth century or so lexorandi lex credenti the law of praying literally is the law of believing right and so we're in english we turn those into now his law of prayer is a law of belief so that you know it's a maxim that basically suggests the the way in which we pray determines how we're going to believe in other words liturgy has to be uh authentic it has to be um you know it has to express the true doctrine that we believe it all has to be completely consistent with each other like hand in glove so if you change the liturgical books of the people as dumb garanger comments on what they did in england with the the protestant reformation there they changed the books and then you get the book of common prayer because they needed to change the liturgy in order to change the belief and that was the pro so it you know the the use of the phrase lex randi to describe a right or describe a missile that's entirely novel the way they're using that phrase here doesn't match up with how the authors through the tradition or even following vatican 2 use that phrase so it's kind of curious the way they use that but nevertheless just judging that by me the law of prayer as in appropriating that term to mean this is what you're going to do [Music] that they are that is the books of paul vi and john paul ii um in conformity with vatican 2 you got to add that they are the soul expression of the roman rite so it is uh completely disintegrating that language that benedict xvi had come up with of the ordinary and the extraordinary form now on the one hand um that's problematic because of the legal status in terms of celebrating the the traditional roman rite um you know lead it actually creates 10 times more of the questions than it actually solves because benedict the 16th expressed clearly in his motor proprio sumorum pontificum that the traditional mass and by extension um you know saint pius the fifth document core premium had never actually been abrogated which means that every priest retains the right to say that mass and now you have uh in in our current holy father's motu proprio um that all right just as the new mass the novus ordo if you will uh the books published by promulgated by paul vi and john paul ii these are the sole expression of the roman right it doesn't say anything about the traditional right it doesn't say anything about its rights it doesn't say anything about whether it was abrogated it's not a formal abrogation so what is it it's basically saying what i take it to is what some of the people that worked on the concilium with benini and others following vatican ii uh and if you want more on that there's boudini's own memoirs his book performed with liturgy what is it 1963 to 1973 or something like that i forgot the years he puts on that or again louis boulier's memoirs and louis vuiet who of course was a major member of that and also dismayed about a lot of what was going on benini tells all the bad and the ugly because he thinks it's good um but you know how they in so one of the consulters that worked on the conciliation with benini is this french jesuit uh jose gilneal he comes out and says the roman right has been destroyed it no longer exists and he's referring to the traditional latin mass because they've come up with something new that they meant to replace it and put it out of existence and so this particular article article one that i just read in the italian and when he said when they say when they say it is the soul expression like the english says the unique it is the soul expression of the roman right what they're saying they're trying to recall that from the concilium that the older right no longer exists it's not there and then when we combine that with the accompanying letter to bishops which i think is actually pretty interesting um when he goes through um that is quite a portion of it um so it's the last part of the italian original um where we start with that so but basically we're saying that um the indications on how to proceed in the dioceses are chiefly dictated by two principles on the one hand to provide for the good of those who are rooted in the previous form of celebration and and this [Music] and need time to return to the roman reigns they need time to return to the roman right that is what has been decided as the soul roman right munich sorry soul roman right promulgated by paul vi and john paul ii so you take that paragraph from the accompanying letter to bishops and put it together with article one what it's essentially saying is this is the roman rite get with it that's basically what it's saying you know is that you're going to transition to this and you're not going to have anything else yeah i find it kind of interesting that basically it does away with that extraordinary ordinary form distinction because there's only one form now ultimately and the the the other side of it is twos is the there's this intention it's it's kind of interesting because i thought to myself some time ago that it would you know if they if they ever wanted to transition out the old right or the new right sorry the way you do it is you just tell all the seminarians coming through and none of you are going to get to say the new mass i'll be saying the old mask well ironically that's exactly what he ended up doing here but i think that the um and the other thing is too is that de facto the fact that he even is allowing it to continue the old right to continue in any way whatsoever is an indication that it's not the sole expression of alexa randy this is another so this is this the very statement by virtue of the document that allowing it is contradicting this very thing because if he says this is the only way it can be done well then he should have just done away with it all together which i'm glad he didn't obviously but but that that that's that's the reality of the that's why i said when i was reading through this there were so many contradictions that kind of kept coming up you know if a person analyzes it in a at a certain depth i'll give him any ideas in case i get an editor you know article two i think it's i mean so many of these so it belongs to the diocesan bishop so it's literally a case of giving a giving with his right hand and then taking away with his left or left and right depending on how you want to look at it it belongs to the dachshund bishop as moderator promoter and guardian of the whole liturgical life the particular church entrusted to him to regulate the liturgical celebrations of his diocese therefore it is his exclusive competence to authorize the use of the 1962 missile in his diocese according to the guidelines of the apostolic sea okay well that last sentence negated the whole first part of the paragraph because he's obviously not the exclusive competence to authorize the use of this because um as we know from this document he basically says hey it's that the bishops it's their place to regulate the the the liturgy and then he turns right around and says but you can't regulate this stuff so i'm not gonna let you regulate it ultimately and so it's that you're gonna have to follow what i s what basically what i say in this so it again it's another one of those contradictions you know because i i was mentioning this to a bishop recently i said well he says that the bishop it's his place to regulate it but then he turns right around and says no you can't allow it whenever you want you just have to do it when i tell you you can do it so it's a it's a different it's again it's another one of those contradictions i think the other thing is too is is that um so basically it really boils down to um that he is basically rest he has inverted as this has already been pointed out in some of the other podcasts of other people he's inverted the process in the past um the bishop actually understood could actually promote it and actually allow the priest to do it under this pla under this new document he only has the right to restrict it he doesn't have the right to promote it so there's a it's literally a flipping on the uh backwards of some more in pontificum in that regard kind of funny the archbishop corleone has now actually added a new mass nutritional mass on his calendar well actually that's one of the interesting things about um there's various theories as to why the holy father came out so quickly with such a a document that has been described by both friends and enemies of the traditional mass as draconian as uh without mercy uh you have robert royal over at the catholic thing who was on ewtn last week i think was last week or the week before describing that you know as another evidence of the what he called the schizophrenia of this papacy that we talk so much about mercy and accompanying and but then anyone the holy father doesn't like there's no mercy there's no accompaniment there's no there's no hope you're going to get with her to get lost which is absolutely the contrary of what he's saying in all these other contexts you know there's there's plenty of mercy for everybody under the sun except for traditionalists who he describes as rigid and in in in a departing uh end quoting from robert royal listening to things i'm confusing what he said with this um it's almost like throwing these child-like tantrums frankly uh when there's too many young people going to traditional orders and he doesn't like these orders and so he just goes on about rigidity and all these things and you know without expressing a specific thing but instead just given this general thing that's bad that's evil and he's almost talking about in terms of basically throwing a tantrum really it's not mature it's not not manly it's not not anything you got the guy is a 90 year old man or 80 year old man or something like that but uh the way in which he expresses himself isn't particularly mature there and there's um i guess getting back to the document beside that where you know he's given the bishop one thing and he's cutting it on the other they're laying down these various norms and so you have article three uh which which follows um you know what we just read the bishop of the diocese in which until now there exists one or more groups that celebrate according to the missile antecedent to the reform of 1970 some you know i'm not sure why they went with that very literal again false friend antagidente basically preceding the reform of the 1970 one great so that certain groups um not uh not assuming you're not denying the validity of and the legitimate legitima the legitimacy now this is a tricky one here too so validity is one thing and i don't know even the society of bias intent does not deny the validity of the nova's herd of mass if you want to go that far right and yet in a you have this extra word legitimacy which again in italian doesn't exactly mean what it means in english is uh not not merely just a question of its being legally right and therefore legitimate but also like morally right good so you can't criticize it in any way shape or form is essentially what that word is what is coming down with it because it says it um [Music] de la reforma liturgica you can't even question is what it's really coming out to that italian really comes out to in english is you can't question the validity which i don't know anyone who does or the legitimacy the goodness the the essential rightness of that reform and that's been the big you know thing with liturgical scholars even boulier who was on the commission which produced that liturgical reform questioned the legitimate of so much of what was going on that reform and he relates in his memoirs and nobody has come forward to contradict it that paul vi said well are you guys doing all this stuff anyway and he said well benini said you wanted it he said well no i didn't there's a major historical lacuna getting on to the you know that there's so many things they put into the new right on the basis of well they did this in the early church but then you get down to that research and you find out they didn't do anything close to that near the church it's like there was some notion of this thing that happened and they reinvented according to a 1970s imagination of what this must have looked like and inserted it in the novus order i mean your classic example the presentation of the gifts uh so-called do let's go grab these individual laymen from the the congregation somewhere and try to march them out back and march them up through the the sanctuary to go present these hosts that they didn't make in this wine which they didn't produce to the priest in order to continue to consecrate into the blessed sacrament it's like that's not what happened in the early church in the early church people made their own altar breads and presented them to the subdeacon which they conveniently got rid of in the 60s ryan are you telling me on eagles wings was not played in the year 150 [Laughter] yeah it's actually like the original you've seen that meme about the original king james bible right pastor jim buried the original king james bible in the fourth century in english which nobody spoke at the time in order to be discovered conveniently in 1601 or 1611 or whatever it's like which is a joke it's a parody thing to to make ridiculousness of the the king james only virgin protestants right there that insist this is the only bible you can ever use even if you don't speak english um it's a similar thing with in terms of the liturgical it really falls under the condemnation that pius xii gives of archaeologists for the very same reasons that he lays down a mediocre day namely that you know people bring up this and that was done in the early church based on this or that you know a view of things in the you know and we should cannot just constantly change our liturgy based on what some scholar comes up with of uh well this was done then so we have to do it now but that's essentially what everything in the new right does it follows archaeologists right in in in terms of uh the all this was done in the other church and that's his justification or this was done in the byzantine right and then you know again not part of our right perfectly good in their right not part of our right and they import it in in ways that it's not done in their right and then say yeah it's great you know and what it's not actually and so like i said with this presentation of the gifts people made their own altar breads they presented it at the sub deacon they're very small little you know pieces of bread that they then would consume and that's what the presentation of the gifts was if you were going to communicate you brought your own altar bread and shortly after the time of saint gregory the great there's a related a woman who laughed because she'd made a particular mark uh fortescue relates this in his uh work that his the the the roman liturgy study of the the mass of the roman right his history rather than his study of the ceremonies where he you know notes this that from an ancient manuscript that a woman had laughed because she made a marking on the bread and then now that bread was being you know presented to her to receive and at a certain point it fell away because it wasn't practical and it was replaced by the offer the offertory contributions where people and of course in those days to the middle ages you gave crops you're the produce of your fields and whatnot for the support of the church because you didn't always have species gold and silver and that and that's where passing around the collection basket comes from is when they got rid of uh you just had altered societies or nuns or whatever that baked bread now that uh is replaced out right and so ignoring all of that in that development they just oh well let's just have some random guy for the congregation go bring this up and it has no propriety in terms of the development of the roman right it's this novelty intruded in it's not even what was done in ancient times but according to this document to say that is to show a disunifying and schismatic mentality even though you're merely just talking about the historical reality of the situation they were confused on what byob meant you know there's that it's kind of interesting that the um that uh you know there's this whole question the legitimacy of the thing you know i i i don't live in a vacuum obviously and i don't think neither do you guys there is nothing that the church says there's nothing that the pope ever does there's nothing that any bishop ever does that isn't opened that people don't open to question somehow so i mean the best thing that they should have done i mean and even the goodness of it i mean even when stuff that is put out some that at least on the appearance seems good people say well wait a minute it could lead to this and this so i mean if the idea is to try and shut down some of the discussion i um at least the italians might get it but the americans aren't going to get it uh paragraph two is it is to designate one or more locations where the faithful adherence of these groups may gather for the eucharistic celebration not however in the bronco churches and without direction of new personal parishes so when i read this i wrote i wrote on the edge i wrote peripheries i guess we're all kicked to the peripheries now right so this is uh you know and i it's um uh you know if the if the pope i think was consistent in in at least the way that he talks he would have at least sat down with the traditionalists and just say hey look i don't agree with you i want to get you over here can we at least talk i mean there's no uh visiting the spelling sheep so to speak so i think it would have been that and i think this is one of the lines that comes across as draconian that they're literally just like no you can't even have this in a parish church you can't even say mass in a parish church well this actually brings up a particular issue because um how many locations are there in any given diocese i mean some dioceses would have all sorts of locations uh you know some of the larger diocese but some of the smaller diocese their ecclesiastical property is rather meager and so there's there's not going to be a lot of places that this can be suitably done so you know this kind of creates i think a difficulty at least just on a basic elementary level on in that regard hey i remember people going are we going to be in the church or the field i think it's baked in by intentions like a heads i win tales you lose type of thing it's like or you can celebrate this mass on february 30th when the planets align type of thing right yeah you know it's like yeah you can have it but because in europe i mean you have a few more especially in larger cities places that are um whether they're designated as chapels oratories and all these things in the united states in latin america in other places you don't have nearly as many of those types of institutions uh you mostly have parishes parochial churches as the italian puts it um which again is media just by the latin of a perocus and a parochiales where it's basically a designated parish and you know in some of that's even mitigated by civil law following the napoleonic code where because of the state owns so much of the church and you know what it actually brings me back to is things like back in the 70s when the the society of pius 10th took over um at a church in paris and just took it over after mass they came in praying the rosary and they just filled the whole church they blocked it off and then the priests were there saying mass and the uh you know the the but the bishop called the cops and cops said there's catholics and they're praying mass what do you want us to do by civil code that's a parish church and there's catholics in there saying mass and what do you want us to do about it and they didn't and they still maintain that church to that day actually the diocese just had to give it up um and so that's kind of a local situation but if now you put it in a law you can't say that mash mass in a parochial church the civil code can now get an order in saying okay well that's actually forbidden by the you know the religion by by the church and we're supposed to honor what they're putting out there so i don't know maybe it has more to do with that in that context to kind of mediate against that in the future but i think you know that that's maybe only like a side note uh it probably has more to do with in most places this is going to inhibit the ability of priests and faithful to have the mass because there simply is no church that's an oratory or that's not an actual parish church yeah i think that part of it is too is that this also gives the bishops plausible um excuse not to allow the mask well i can't find any place for you to say the mask you know and so this is i think that's one of the one of the things that a lot of the bishops can actually uh use this as an excuse right and you know without irregular erection of new personal parishes what's interesting about that is that's almost a shot across the bow to the traditional religious orders because other than very small there i know i think i only know of two or three in the entire united states although my knowledge on that admit is limited where it's a traditional parish and it's a traditional personal parish and there is a diocesan priest running it those are extremely rare they're almost all run by the fraternity the icks or um uh you know essential variety so there's you know those um traditional religious orders and so basically it's when i watch this basically this is a question that the fraternity is going to read which i'm still incarnated in even though i'm um uh have exclusion that this is a real question about their growth this is essentially shutting down the growth even of the um traditional uh religious orders in their expansion and taking on new apostles because the um many of the the fraternity is something i guess that's going to have to sit down and the you know the council is going to have to figure out what it wants to do and the superior general can make a decision but you know are they going to take on a new apostolate that has no perish associated with it so yeah so you need in effect this is curtailing the traditional religious orders um expansion into new apostolates right at least long term and it also creates another issue in terms of what about the dominican right what about the caramel what about the anglican ordinary that's actually a bigger one at least in terms of some people's mind who are served by the anglican ordinariat where they do a you know a mass that's been approved that is a mix of the book of common prayer and the traditional mass in english and unless i'm mistaken if there's anyone that knows better you know feel free to correct me that's what he was explained to me by someone but um you know they're not doing the novus ordo in the anglican ordinariate so where are they and it's not explained in the document which of course is going to then lead you to new dubia which gives them the excuse to come down with more draconian things which is why i always tell people working out with your bishop keep doing what you're doing don't ask dubia don't send in questions because that's just going to give all the excuse for them to come back and come in with more draconian stuff oh yeah we didn't realize that we now we can really restrict it which is exactly what they want to do right yeah and that's it in fact that was my one of my very concerns about this document because the lack of clarity in certain parts of it inevitably bishop's going to start writing and all it's going to do is tighten everything up and as you know ryan and i'm sure steve's heard this you never send a petito or a dubia to rome for which you don't already know the answer because if you don't know the answer you don't know what you're going to get so so this is one of the reasons why you know it's it's a bit disconcerting because of the fact that a lot of the bishops have said well a lot of this stuff is unclear well the more clarification comes out the more restrictive i think it's going to get yeah almost like a don't ask don't tell thing yeah exactly you know paragraph three to establish at the designated location the days on which eucharistic celebrations are permitted using the roman missal promulgated by john paul or john the 23rd in 1962. so the bishops are also given even the ability to restrict the days in which it's said so and you know so there's more and more restrictions that the bishops are going to be able to have yes yeah that's your reference i think was at in these celebrations the readings are proclaimed in the vernacular language using translations of the sacred scripture approved from the church be used by their respective episcopal conferences i was happy to see when i first read that i said well then you just do what we've always done you do it in latin and then you come down and you read it in english but there's there's a couple of things i think in here that needs to be addressed the first is someone has i can't remember who actually rightly pointed it out because i've read so much stuff on this is well you know there's not a whole lot of approved translations in relationship to this thing in fact i i think i've only seen one english um epistolary which was uh available um i i take that back i think there's two that were available but those things are like hands to you i mean i managed to find a copy but to get an actual copy that is extraordinarily difficult now you might be able to and this is the point approved for liturgical use use not just for some layman reading it reading his hand missile and pew you can't even use hand missiles technically because they're not to the rsv and the nab at that point because in 1983 when they put that out there they they declared anything prior whether it was the confraternity edition of the dewey rheems with reams or knox by whatever else it was all you know that was all for private use but only these things the nab and the rsv are approved for liturgical use right yeah and i think another aspect to this particular paragraph which um every time i see this kind of discussion you even see it in vatican 2 and post vatican 2 documents is this business of you know doing the readings so the people can actually understand them and there was this whole theology that cropped up that said that the readings were actually there for the education of the people for the education and education of the people right so they're there to inform them so they can give the lord the gospels etc that's not the primary reason they're there it's true that that's a secondary effect of reading the epistles because they re and the gospels because you read it and you learn from it but that's not the primary reason the primary reason and this is why it was actually in blow mask it's done at the altar at the high mass the epistles done facing the altar is a sign that this was a sacrifice of praise it's a sacrificial thing in which god has given us this good thing and you actually are giving it back to him and also as a potential you know like reminding him of his promises etc but it was given to him so it's actually a sacrifice of praise that and then it was of course then the gospels were done facing north to indicate the um uh conversion of the barbarians but the point being is is that that the primary aspect of this is and this is the whole thing the mass from the old mass especially has this element to it from the beginning to the end is a sacrifice it's different elements obviously there's a sacrifice of praise which they call now the liturgy of the word but then the actual liturgy of the eucharist which is actually the canon on that or the offertory on that's the actual the sacrifice of the christ occurs of course but they're both sacrifices and this is the this is one of the things i think that is misunderstood that the the readings are not done primarily for the edification of the people they're actually done as a sacrifice back to god happy that it actually edifies the people it's a good thing people should i you know i always encourage people to read along for the readings etc but that doesn't mean that that's their primary uh end and i think that's one of the things that's kind of behind this whole thing is that we have to do it in english so that people understand it no actually in the end the only one who needs to understand it is god and because then we'll get the graces we need to receive that now don't get me wrong i'm all for people reading along in the mass paying attention to the parts of the mass and reading along with the priest and unifying themselves uh in union with the sacrifice of the priest to the degree that they're capable of but that doesn't mean that that's the primary goal is to for the people to understand what is said and people can also take the discipline to actually read it before you get the mass and maybe learn it because when you hear that today's pharisee versus and publicly in it i understand where he's going with that i read that part like dom guarantee yeah the only thing that this kind of complicates a little bit is um uh is that it excuse me but the only thing the only thing that this kind of complicates is daily mass because unless you're doing a homily you virtually never did it damn actually you i mean i've been a pastor of parish and you would commonly read them at the uh at the sunday masses um or holy days of obligation et cetera before you preach um but uh so that's the only thing that's gonna kind of add but the uh the other part of it um that kind of uh concerns me in relationship to that is that the uh that there is kind of a mindset that um the uh trying to figure out how to formulate it it's uh i'll tell you what i'm going to return to it because i think it's something that would be better suited in one of these other cases but it's another aspect to to this oh that's what it was okay so it basically boils down to the best way i can formulate it is this when i was reading this very closely i was paid at the first time through i was paying close attention to see how it would impact our society because we say exclusively the old mass right and so um with the bishop's permission and so i was trying to figure out um what parts of these actually apply to us and i began to realize that um and i was very happy to see that the canon is pointing as pointed this out there are no provisions in this for private mass now i do realize that even bishops have said all private masses are forbid forbidden but technically speaking any restrictive document is to be be interpreted in the strictest possible matter that's what canon law says so in that particular case there's nothing in here that has any provisions for um private mass and so even these uh even doing the readings in english during private mass um there would be no reason to actually do them in private mass if the priest you know so um and one of the things that i was a little concerned about is that the practice that had been done in europe particularly in france you saw this at certain times is that um when it came time for the readings it would just turn around and then say do the readings in the vernacular right and not replicate them in latin that was my only concern that that would actually happen but it doesn't have to people who can just do it in lab and then do it in english but there's no provisions in this document for private mass and that's going to be a real question even though he says you know they're never basically he wants to cut off the seminarians from being able to save this mask does this just mean publicly or does this mean privately i mean there's going to be those kinds of questions but um i'm also a firm believer of don't ask them the question because they're gonna say no they can't say it whereas if it's left open then technically speaking there's no reason they can't so this is something which i hope just kind of i i'm that's one of my real concerns is i just hope the traditionalists even the good bishops and stuff let this thing settle that's why i didn't get on right off the bat and start talking about it let this thing settle and see how it starts to plant play itself out and then um you know and i think that as time goes on most bishops um that are you know benign to the tradition from what i can see are just letting it stand they're not they're not even making any changes yeah that's right for where i'm at it's been that way yeah and there's a number of bishops that we've seen that have said actually a far larger majority uh that at least that have made public statements that have said nothing's changing um you know yeah this is gonna be the same uh you know you see uh like we mentioned it was mentioned quarter in in san francisco saying we're going to do more um and then you know but there's been then been a handful um that have come out and just killed everything off except for the fraternity for example or the institute or again um bishop gregory citing this motu proprio explicitly cancelled a pontifical mass being offered by another bishop at the shrine of the immaculate conception which is considered like the mother church of this country it's a church that's generally considered at least morally to belong to every bishop of this country not merely the the one who's the ordinary and uh wilton gregory predictably uh because we know where he's aligned um canceled this mass that had been in preparation for over a year actually um and notified bishop gallickson who was going to say yeah you can't do that we're we're cancelling that you can of course do the nervous order in latin if you want but um and then which of course brings in other problems and issues such as if you have a sacred music repertoire that you've prepared um that was written for the traditional mass it was not written for the the novus ordo which has things that actually frustrate the whole purpose of the church's musical tradition so you know so then it makes it you know extremely difficult especially in choir it's practiced in a certain way so the whole thing shut down and little surprise but the vast majority has been bishops even in europe too france is another surprise because we know how liberal france can be but at the same time there's a lot of bishops that you know we saw everything that happened in dijon weeks preceding this motu proprio but there's been a number of other bishops saying yeah nothing's changing it's gonna be fine and and part of that i think is the french see the writing on the wall that um if priests that are ordained and you follow them up ten years the majority of them are all traditional priests that stay in the priesthood ten years later after ordination right but in dc you can give joe biden communion though of course [Laughter] paragraph poor is basically a bureaucratic paragraph so to appoint a priest who has designated a delegate of the bishop is entrusted with the celebrations and with the pastoral care of these groups of the faithful this priest should be suited for this responsibility skilled in the use of the missal romano manchester reform of 1970 possess a knowledge of the latin language sufficient for thorough comprehension of the rubrics and the church text which when i first read that i'm like well that's going to eliminate most diocese because most diocese any guy that's in the bureaucratic machine or who might be put in charge of it is not going to have that thorough of a knowledge of latin to begin with let alone the liturgical uh text and i think that's could be something that can happen i think so you know some of the bishops will be responsible and and actually put somebody in charge who knows the liturgy properly etc and knows latin but then i think there's going to be bishops who will just put some guy that happens to be in the chancery in charge of it ignoring these requirements and um just say you know and put him in charge of it and he's just going to basically be killing everything or telling him that you know to do things differently than they actually are supposed to be doing the other side of this is that a bishop can say that well i don't have a priest that's suitable for this therefore you're going to have to wait before i'm going to give you permission to do the mass until i can find a priest that can do this and then they just sit on it indefinitely so i think that's one of the things that could be coming from that and i think um this kind of recalls some things back to samoan pontifica where it said a priest who is suitable idinaos in the latin and then in the italian of this document which is almost certainly the original um the priest will be suitable and that term indonesia in latin which comes in a green in a italian the same way at the now refers to the minimum suitability you have the mere ability to do the job you know so see and that's where the english kind of loses it a little bit it says for such a responsibility the italian entirely means um he's got the least minimum ability to do the job right and so and that's kind of recalls back to discussions about sumorum pontificum does the priest have to be fluent in latin does the priest have to know the every single rubric that ever was and he saw bishops coming up who at the time in 2007 were rather hostile to the mass and yeah we're going to have a test and all this is like are you going to have a test for your new right priests to follow the germ um and then that's kind of actually a similar thing reading this paragraph as you know back in those days okay so they have to have all these you know the these skills and they have to know this and they have to be you know proficient well how many bishops are ensuring that the priests who say the 1970 missile the novus ordo as it were know even the basics of what those rubrics require based on the majority of masses that the majority of catholics go to it would suggest they don't right i think that's true big fair terms at the ncaa great again yeah if there was ever a dead document it was that one i mean yeah it just dead letter when it showed up nobody paid any attention to it but that also shows i think here we you can get a document from the pope and uh what happens if nobody or a majority of people pay no attention to it does it become a dead letter and if it becomes a dead letter does it have to be followed and the experience of sapiencia of john john the 20 saint john the 23rd would tell us um yeah it can happen and uh unless people want to be bound by the terms of the ncaa now and make all the universities teach their classes in latin uh they're going to have to admit that if a document is not particularly heated it doesn't actually have to be followed right paragraph five to proceed suitably to verify that the parish is canonically erected for the benefit of the faithful are effective for their spiritual growth and to determine whether or not to retain them this is kind of a loaded statement because in a certain sense the bishop always has that uh he's always has that because he can erect him to perish and suppress a parish in relationship to pcs that it's not doing that but it's interesting to proceed suitably to verify that they are effective in their spiritual growth well okay what's the criteria for being effective in spiritual growth is that the tradition of the church or is it because that particular parish is being very uh vocal in promoting um you know global warming and the need to cut down on our carbon emissions and this and that i mean what's going to be the criteria for that i think is a real question because um i mean just you can see this with the bishops they're not all on the same page of what constitutes real spiritual growth so we'll have to kind of see how that one plays itself out i also think that it's um this also gives again the bishop's excuse to just start suppressing personal parishes right if they want you know if you have a bishop who didn't he got he got stuck with it when he came in he doesn't like it he's been looking for an excuse to get rid of it well now he's got the excuse you can just say well it's not effective for their spiritual growth especially especially considering the fact that in the beginning of the document we were basically there in the in the letter we were basically that accompanied that we were basically told that the trads are these angry people who you know are divisive well if the bishop walks in with that attitude and etc then he's going to say well they're obviously not spiritual growing here because they're not making their um switch over to the new mass so i think that this is something this is something i'll be curious to watch how this is interpreted differently by different bishops and then also bishops in the future namely that at least to this country can't speak for other countries but since we have uh all the world acolytes cardinal world acolytes that are staffing like supers and tobin that are staffing the congregation for bishops and are going to be the ones determine who the new bishops will be it's almost a certainty they're going to be francis effect bishops and they're going to come in with that attitude that yeah the traditionals are divisive and mean and horrible and bad and prejudge who am i to judge right well they've decided they're the ones who judge the spiritual lives of these people that have been in communion with rome and that's part of the you know again going back to what would robert royal from the catholic thing it said the schizophrenia of this papacy i'm going to take that further to the schizophrenia of this document it's that oh well the only reason we gave these things were to heal the uh the issues of the sspx but now we're going to punish the people who are faithful to the church and the way we look at it because obviously the sspx thing through faithful church too so i don't want to get into those issues but as far as rome's concerned the people were faithful to the church that said we're going to go to your diocesan masses and we're going to go to those religious orders that have the faculties to offer the sacraments and uh we're going to punish them and call them divisive and quasi-schismatic and uh you know and validate and justify everything the sspx has been saying it's like which way is it uh you know are we trying to heal what you see as being this big problem of the sspx if that's the real problem and again that brings us back to what i said earlier what you and you'd mentioned too is that they just don't want this thing to exist at all period right and in fact they're actually more offended by the fact that there are diocesan masses by the fact that there are religious orders with full faculties to say this mess then they are about the sspx who at the very least are irregular if nothing else yeah and i think some of it also stems if i understand it correctly about the italians bishops involvements in encouraging francis to do this that you know there was a frustration on the side of the bishops they couldn't control their priests in relationship to this thing and so now it gives them the ability to just abs to actually do that but i think and that i think that's that the irony of it is it's going to actually end up causing more division um than it's going to to solve when it's all said and done uh paragraph 6 to take care not to authorize the established new groups i guess you could just summarize this as saying stop all progress because that's basically what they don't want anything else they don't want this thing moving forward at all so to take care not to authorize the establishment groups does this mean that if some group asks for the traditional mass the bishop's not to do it apparently right which is ian we got a snuff thing out and colonel mueller who is not a traditionalist by any stretch of the imagination uh former head of the cdf he said quote without the slightest empathy one ignores the religious feelings of the often young participants in the masses according to the missal of john the 23rd that is the 62. instead of appreciating the smell of the sheep the shepherd here hits them hard with his crook it also seems simply unjust to abolish celebrations of the old right just because it attracts some problematic people who boost his non-toilet and that's from mueller's uh article in the catholic thing from some weeks back but you know that that first line really strikes me here is that he's uh he can't appreciate the smell of the sheep and he just wants to smack them with the crook you know you know we don't want you around get out of here you know until you start smelling the way we want you to smell and you know what about the peripheries what about diversity what about dialogue accompaniment oh god because it was never meant to mean anything except accommodating every single possible people except those who believe the catholic faith really yeah it's like i said on the it's like i said on the rundown with your guys the basic principle with a lot of these people is anything but catholicism right you can do i mean james martin is a perfect example that the guy is running around spreading all sorts of of um this information since that seems to be a buzzword these days and yet nothing has ever done he can do whatever he wants um you know there's certainly certain groups in the church who say a version of the nova sword of mass that doesn't even follow the rubrics it's literally a liturgy created out of thin air and they get to do it there's no problem with it and etc and so whereas if you want to be faithful to liturgy et cetera then they they seem to have a difficulty with it um the next one is pretty pretty pretty harsh i think article 4 priests ordained after the publication of the president monoproprio who wished to celebrate using the masala romanum of 1962 should submit a formal request to the dawson bishop who shall consult the apostolic sea before granting this authorization which we know what that means they're just not going to grant it unless there's just extraordinary circumstances so um this essentially says that any guy that is now in the seminary is never going to get to say the old mass that's basically what's being said here and i think that's um when i read this that's when i began to realize this document long term isn't going to stand because in addition to that observation made towards the beginning where the priest might have a right all right ghd i think that is a an area that i hope a lot of theologians start investigating but long term the impetus of the um the desires and the vocations of these men is very often inspired by the old right even if they're in the new right or they have a strong attraction to it and it's not yet that you a a single ecclesiastical document isn't going to stamp out these strong inclinations that these men have towards this ritual you know or their desire to write to offer it or their their love for it it's not that's not going to change just by a single ecclesiastical document um even if they try and stamp it out it's like anything else the more you try and stamp it out i you know i think the worse it's going to get so i honestly believe that this in the end this document is actually going to foster more interest in the old right and and actually a stronger adherence by those who go to it than an actual okay now i've got to change and i need to transition since that seems to be a buzzword these days i need to transition to the new mass i think you're going to see even less of that happening i actually know a couple of diocesan priests that are doing more in the traditional right and saying yeah you know just since this thing came out i just want to do it more and it's not even a habit of disobedience it's not even like i mean that that's the case with me government says don't do this i was like oh is there any reason why i shouldn't do that maybe that's what i should be doing but for a lot of these priests like it's only perked their interest and it perked their desire to you know to celebrate the traditional mass to celebrate the traditional sacraments and right and they've talked to the bishop they say yeah go ahead okay and so it's it's one of those things that's just going to keep growing and the idea that this is forbidden is again going to have that issue of calling into question everything that they want to be soccer socked just as cardinal ratzlinger pointed out all the way back in 1981 if what was formerly the most sacred thing is now forbidden it calls the very nature and existence of the church into question and marketing there is no bad press yeah it just gets people interested yeah i think it's just yeah i mean i think that the more the i do think this though as they recognize that this document didn't have the full effect that they would like it to have i think they're going to get even more draconian as it goes on articles five and six really laid that down [Music] yes absolutely uh priests who celebrate according to the miss holly romano 1962 request from the diocesan bishop the opera authorization continue to enjoy this faculty again it goes back to that word faculty um the other side of it is too though is is that uh that's this brings up a particular question so this can only i mean i'm not a candidate so i'm open to correction here but it seems to me that this article article 5 can only apply to diocesan priests to those who are and maybe to new right priests are in the new right in their respective religious orders but in the fraternity of saint peter i would imagine it's the same thing with the icks although i could be wrong but the fact of the matter is in the fraternity of saint peter it's part of their statutes it's part of their constitution this liturgical specificity so it automatically grants the priest the right to do this um and to actually save the old mass and when um the when the rome tried to impose concelebration or permission celebration you know that you can't you cannot say um or celebration in the new mass you cannot they said you cannot deny a priest the right to say the new mass but they also basically conceded that if a priest doesn't want to say the new mass he's not obligated to either so in this particular um congregations and religious orders it doesn't seem to me that this would apply except in cases of public mass because obviously the um the to say the public mass and the diocese is the bishop's prerogative to regulate so that would be the only time that this would apply but just for the for a priest who's part of religious order to say his private mass and the old right of which that's part of the statutes or constitutions he would not um he would not need this authorization right you know by the way that the um the next two articles six and seven um if when you read that i i i was actually told by a cardinal about two months before this motor program came out that the holy see was just about to divest the pced particular commission crazy day of all its all its functions and authority and that's essentially what happens so institutes of consecrated life and society of apostolic life erected by the commissioner of cleansing day so your underparticular clinician plays a day and not the other one so historically if your liturgical specificity was the old right if you did the new right then you were under the institutes for consecrated right and societies of apostolic life but now he says they fall under the confidence of the congregation for institutions consecrated life besides apostolic life so that's a shift so now the fraternity of saint peter is no longer under the punch of the commissioner who plays a day it's under the uh congregation for instance consecrated life so they've shifted that that also means that any establishment of a society of which the old right might be part of it is now under the congregation with the institute's consecrated life and societal life i can tell you um having studied those documents that come from that particular congregation um no traditional order will ever become established from here on out of this document stands the second thing is is that not even new right groups can't get established because the the requirements are so steep to to do that but it also means that the internal governance of these societies um can now be meddled with or affected by or adjudicated in relationship to this particular congregation then article seven the congregation for divine worship and discipline of sacraments the congregation for institutes of consecrated life and society outside for matters of their particular confidence exercise the authority of policy with respect to the observance of these provisions so between these two they have so they've shifted now questions about the old mass my this is my understanding i'm open to correction my understanding is if you have a question about something in the old mask then the fraternity we used to send them from time to time to the uh typical commission claims today um in the in most of the rescripts were well researched they were actually very well done um at least that i can recall um in in those and so we'd actually get adjudications about liturgical matters that were actually accurate and actually the way it should be done that now we don't have now it's under a completely different congregation and so now we're going to have to see how that kind of works itself out in relationship to the liturgical life of these groups their interior governance um their interior lives you know etc um so we're gonna have to see how that kind of plays out but essentially speaking i'm not even sure what the fundamental commissioning plays a day even does at this point i'm sure there's something they do now but i i suspect that will all be given to someone else and he's just going to close the office okay so article 8 basically just puts into puts it into legalese about um abrogating anything that's not part of this about appropriate and then the next one is um that he's ordering it all the parts to be observed etc one of the things i found interesting was and many of the theologians have been talking about this there's no picasso alleges in relation to this document it's just immediately put in effect there's no ability to even study it which means that you know it's going to be the implementation i think is going to be haphazard at best but the other thing i found interesting is that they um instead of issuing it in the official organ of promulgation which is the uh act of apostates instead what they did is it's you know the observatory romano i think that was just to get it out there and get it as quickly as they can but i find it interesting that they're not even using i mean they say later that it's to be published in the um act of apostolic you say but that's kind of an afterthought i mean in a sense so that nova costly alleges um you know there's no vacation of the law so to speak there's no uh time period where there's gonna be good so i i think that the the that i think that contributes to the kind of the draconian or harshness of the document that there's not even given time to study the document and you know make observations etc so i mean i could go on for hours on this and we've already gone quite a bit long ryan did you have anything else or um just kind of uh the way in which you don't have a vacatio legend legends is problematic even even for this pontificate because you're basically saying we don't want you to study it we don't want to do that we just want you to do this and be as vicious as we are about this whole thing right away and and that's just that's just contrary to any catholic notion of justice that's embodied in catholic law and canon law in in any you know catholic understanding of the notion of law that you got to give people time to study and find the best ways to implement it if the bishop really is the supreme legislator of his diocese he needs to take stock of what's going on in his diocese which may not be going on in other dioceses in order to how to best implement the law so there's just a lack of justice in his proper sense whatever however we might feel about it as travis like oh no he's attacking us that's not the question of justice the question of justice is for the bishop to say how valid are these concerns in my diocese and what are the actual spiritual needs of my faithful and and if i go implement this immediately am i looking out to the spiritual needs of my faithful that's exactly what francis is asking him to do to completely ignore that and you've had criticism from some bishops you had a bishop in holland uh mentioning this the liturgy is not the pope's toy you have another bishop bishop uh tobin in rhode island the good tobin as he's called um and he's not as he's not like the one in new jersey so he uh but he said the pope has basically taken a chainsaw to deal with a situation that requires a scalpel and uh and you see that that attitude reflected also in france also in other places where the you know it's like he's pre-judged the situation the spirit and uh needs of many faithful who go to the traditional mass he's he's prejudged it essentially he's done exactly you know who am i to judge well he's decided that he's the one to judge essentially and he's gone through to he just said nope right now and that speaks to something it speaks to an urgency that's in the background now people have floated different reasons for that urgency one is that well the pope just had this serious uh colon you know uh surgery had half his colon removed and maybe there's a chance he's gonna die and of course we have no idea what's gonna happen on the other side of the conclave so in spite of the fact that pope francis has appointed most of the bishops that cardinals are currently making the cardinality nevertheless there there seems to be an urgency there by those who are advising the holy father and pushing him to issue this document because he's not he's only a few days out of the hospital this comes right on out he's also been suspiciously quiet since it came out i'm just making a few things the interestingly the reading in the novus ordo for the very sunday after this document came out decried the shepherds who deprived the faithful of his grace and ministry and in lock away you know salvation from them and i thought that was kind of interesting that that was with the first reading in the novus ordo uh challenged in the old testament church that is the the the uh synagogue and uh israel but there's another factor i think that plays in as well besides the the the question of the pope's health and that particular urgency is that the vatican's made a whole lot of strange bedfellows as it needs more money as it is embarked on climate discussions on in the the current goings-on of the unnamed virus of unspecified origin that you can't talk about without getting banned from youtube and who is the one group that won't bend the knee that won't roll up the sleeve that as a group not obviously not every single person in that group what's the one group that has resisted the narrative the zeitgeist on the question of the unspecified virus of unspecified origin it's tread catholics as almost not not quite to a man but as a group certainly that's the group that is resisting and when you look at your bill gates is your jeffrey sachs your world health organization all these group the world economic forum all these groups with which with whom the vatican is partnered and receives funding from it's not a stretch of the imagination to say hey you've got to do something about these traditional catholics because they're not going along with what we want them doing yeah that's been my observation too something stinks and it ain't the fish there's some reason why all this timing was too coincidental for all of a sudden this to come down on us but hey father before a couple questions first are there any loopholes and maybe if we if there are maybe we shouldn't reveal them and two what can you give some people out there for the virtue of hope to have some hope what can they do right now to live through this so they're not you know their anxiety levels can go down so well i think there's already been some of the guys have been discussing some of the loopholes so my suggestion would be to do you know to get you know to follow the guys that have actually that are you know expert theologians and and liturgists etc who've already been kind of talking a little bit about this in canada because it was that one document was actually put out by uh that was on rorati chelly on the um on canon law in relation by the candidates in relationship to this and i thought that one was actually pretty good so i think that people need to study this thing and then realize where it binds and where it doesn't etc and what it restricts and what it doesn't restrict um as far as the virtue of hope goes um this is this is the exorcist coming out of me anytime you're attacked it means you're doing something right and this is this is exactly the same principle that i think is offered in the church when there's so many modernists and so many um priests and bishops who actually have a distaste ultimately for catholicism in the end one bishop told me this was like 20 years ago when bishop told me he said most of the bishops he said not most he said many of the bishops at the uscc don't even believe the creed this was 20 years ago so the fact that we are being attacked and the fact that the traditional mass is under attack is actually a sign of hope it's a sign that we're doing the right thing it's a sign we're doing a good thing if if we were doing the right thing things would be sailing along wonderfully but that means though that as ryan rightly pointed out in the beginning we have to have a spiritual attitude towards this stuff yes these things coming down appear they're you know they're the justice is a real question here about this stuff there is uh and there's obviously this is that i mean i i mean i'm not saying this from my own i'm just saying many spirit many commentators from the catholic news sources and all these others have said that this is an attack on traditionalism attack on traditionalists attack on the old mask but the fact that we have to remember is that that's a sign that we're doing the right thing but god will not allow this to uh to come to an end and in the sense of he's not going to allow the traditional mass to be completely completely stamped out might get a little bit more restrictive it might be harder to find a traditional lat mask but it's not going to be completely done away and there's one reason why the theologians in the past said that the primary reason that god created man is in order to have rightly ordered worship that's why he created us so we would worship him in a rightly ordered way so that's what the old mass is and so he's not going to allow this thing to be stamped out we just have to be willing to uh to stay the course and realize this is where our salvation is worked out in fear and trembling this is where we're going to have to the rubber is going to meet the road we have to be willing to suffer and grind this thing out and this is where we win our crown of glory in heaven is by you know fighting for what is right fighting for what is just and good and we just maintain it and don't allow ourselves to get sucked into the negativity of it but you know as soon as this thing came out i just said okay what do we got to do to keep moving this thing forward any final words frank uh is it largely a similar thing that god i said it on the rundown a few weeks ago god wants this mess but he also needs better treads and so one we know god wants this mask is look at where we were in the 1970s got a handful of people in various places in the world trying their best to make things work trying their best to keep the mask going got a handful of priests here and there being persecuted by their diocese if they keep saying the mass he read don camilo and the the flower children is the title of the book and um they do actually i thought it was one of his best books um joanna gordeski and where he is describing the life that don camilla has to after the council and uh he doesn't even know what's going on he's still saying the masses he's always said it and then this priest shows up not even wearing clerics his name is don chichi and uh you know he shows all his at first time camilla just kicks him out he doesn't believe he's a priest and then he goes back and shows all his documents and he's like oh okay you are a priest and he's ordering him to do all these things on the authority of the new bishop to change the mass to do this doug camilla doesn't want to do it so he just goes to local chapel and keeps saying the mass and everybody in the town is in his chapel with the mass and it's only if you hit the children they're going to the new thing and that that's the situation a lot of people found themselves in 1969 in 1974. and you go from there even where i were 20 years ago when i entered the traditional movement we we're at the point where you know you priests all over the place saying the traditional mass religious orders are reinvigorating their traditional masses dominicans the norbertines the carmelites and you have uh you know so much that that's happening on the side of tradition so many new young people coming to it without the traditional umbridge that trads had because of basically being treated like lepers for so many years that that's going to breed certain types of results right and he got so many new people just want the reverence and beauty of that mess and so that's a movement that's going to keep going so god wants that but he also wants better tracks he wants people who are ready to really live the spiritual life and not just talk about it not just talk about all these things in in um uh whine and complain about the pope and coffee and doughnuts after mess he wants the people that are going to make a fervent act of thanksgiving after mass just get out go do whatever you're gonna do he wants people that are gonna take during their time not just family rosary okay i'm getting up in the morning am i looking at my phone to uh check whatever news that i don't need to be checking or am i making you know a daily offering a morning offering or picking up the bravery or picking up just basic things out of a prayer book and those very first hours of the day offered god um or am i getting on and getting on twitter getting out of fed book or getting all these places and checking this i think those are the questions you need to be asking are you really ready to be attracted to me a better tribe or are you willing to say i just want my trad warm and fuzzy on sunday and go back and i just want everything to be nice and peaceful that's really where we're at and the fact that this document comes out i think it shows that we're getting to the place just like father said it's coming because we're doing something and all the players that are applauding this document or all the people that we've noted for years do not exhibit that they have catholic faith okay or they whatever faith they have is not ours and so it's it's a good sign i think as well as getting rid of legal fictions i think it's sober lining too is that the whole problem of ordinary form in extraordinary form is really problematic because they're really not part of the same right and now that's been wiped away for good i think maybe not for good but at least for the moment i think it really says the reform of the reform is dead we're going to have tradition where we're going to have father billy bob masses and um you know i think that's that that's right that's it you take stock in that and and embrace that you know god is setting up i think you know a great victory for us in the future and we just need to preserve like st john capistrano uh in saint bernie and siena in the 15th century trying to reform the church they're trying to perform their franciscan order trying to lead the popes to be less worldly trying to bring in all these reforms none of it's taking said they got some moderate reform in the franciscan order the rest of it none of it's really taken until 130 years after they were dead maybe we're somewhere along that line hopefully closer rather than further they didn't know that they just knew they worked for reforms and it wasn't happening yet and they just trusted that their you know their successors would keep that work going 120 years after they were in the ground that you're even seeing the fruits of trent and probably even more than that when you count how long it took to reform the roman curia and such so it you know you may be in it for the long haul you may not see it in your lifetime but what matters is are you faithful not are you every day that i can do this you mess this and create it somebody needs to talk about those things you're right about those things why are you the one who needs to write about those things i'm not i try to stay away from those things uh because i need to get myself to heaven and so you look at where you're at and look at what your response has been are you becoming a better catholic in response to this document where are you becoming a worse catholic in response to this document i think that's the question you did ask with a really serious spiritual introspection and and and that's that's kind of my you know parting words on that is that the man the enemy is in the mirror not necessarily somebody over in rome that's the enemy you've got to get to heaven whatever but whatever they do you need to stand before god yeah a whole philadelphia thing because keep an eye on philip he's going to betray you yep hey steve can i just make one last comment based on what ryan said but i've promised not to be as long-winded as ryan but it's kind of hard historically they always said that the longer a liturgical part of the mass was part of the right the more it was indicating indicates that that's god's will that it be there so in relationship to the old right we know that the essential structure of this thing has not changed for 14 or 1500 years and even longer so what that tells us is that we know that this thing is the will of god we know it because he's had it around for so long and if he didn't if he wanted wanted what we're going through now he would have brought this about long time ago but he didn't okay so this indicates what we what he wants now one last other thing to put together with that we just read you know the whole thing with on the piece of saint martha we're saying martha says to christ can you tell mary to come help me and he says to her something very important which trads have to keep in mind and that's this that she has chosen mary has chosen the greater part uh and it will not be taken from her if we are worthy of the traditional mass by being holy god will not take it from us he might make it difficult but he's not going to take it from us so our job is to be worthy of the mass you know some book is the best seller list i think like that acts 5 39 something about the if it's of god you would not be able to stop them you might be even fighting against them uh right and the the lines are now on the good side the lines are crystal clear there's no gray matter anymore right right anyway well gentlemen thank you for it uh we'll do crow premium another day just so it's uh keep it under five hours okay can you give us a give everyone a blessing before we uh sign off sure and this is intended for anybody who listens to this podcast benediction on the potential thank you steve thank you ryan good [Music] night oh [Music] foreign

Channel: Sensus Fidelium

Views: 36,688

Rating: 4.9291687 out of 5

Keywords: pope francis, tradition, catholic, christian, prayer, grace, ripperger, exorcism, hope, church, mass, liturgy, novus ordo, religion, history, virtue, gospel

Id: ZkijFB1eCwU

Length: 109min 2sec (6542 seconds)

Published: Thu Aug 05 2021