Relationship SURVIVAL GUIDE for New Parents w/ Dr. Stan Tatkin

when generals fight soldiers die when parents fight children suffer and so this is about working together to find the best way in this moment they're both generals and they have to treat each other as such not talk down to each other so they have to find another way to lead than the way they've been doing because threat is accumulative if it's not repaired if you and I don't say you know I'm sorry sweetheart I I shouldn't have done that that was wrong we don't do that on a regular basis then we start to acrw memory that we deem as threatening that starts to accumulate and snowball to the point where we have a biological problem where we are no longer allies you and I we're adversaries we're adversaries and we stop talking we stop sleeping together we stop uh uh interacting we don't do good things that couples should [Music] do Dr Stan tacken it is such an honor to be able to sit with you in person in person with I feel like uh maybe like one of the people in your therapy chair I I don't use that chair okay well different this this is the podcasting chair now right I uh recently read your book baby bum because this is your second time on the podcast yes the first time we chatted about couples what helps couples be successful and I was since Kylie and I have recently had a child Jasper he's 7 months old the title of that book captivated me cuz I thought I kind of feel like our relationship has been hit by a bomb your co-author Cara hoppy she talks about how it's not just bomb in terms of the conversation of like devastating to the relationship but the multiple means like the bomb yes and I loved that because I thought so much of our relationship is being invited to go to a deeper level and things that were seemingly I thought I had my poop in a group stand I thought I had communication like nailed for the most part and then the universe delivered me Jasper who now has taught me that my communication ain't so good sometimes so how old is your son he's seven months old now a yeah and in reading the book one thing that because of course having a child and that interrupting or challenging couples is nothing new no of course and you guys talk about some research in there that it really hit me some was the godman's research that 67% of couples when they have a baby they can their relationship satisfaction plummet yeah and another one was a study from I believe 1957 that looked at 83% of couples were in crisis yes oh my Lord like this is why is there not more intervention for couples there's a lot of stuff about relationship parent to baby but nothing parent or couped to person to person yeah there isn't anything out there that has prepared couples to remain couples because it is a couples uh project having a child right or children that's one the other is that Partners don't have a really solid structure really solid idea of themselves before they have children and yet another issue was going from twos to threes right so we have a twers system and uh that's an exclusive system just like mother infant is and just like mother infant or father infant relationships there is a third person often the other parent in this case the baby and that third tends to rock the primary system MH uh one person loses their exclusivity with the partner the primary and that can lead to jealousy can lead to uh feeling left out uh unimportant demoted and so that's the other thing that we try to prepare people for is that now you are working together with this third who is both of your child but one of you is going to be more preoccupied for a while one of you is going to be uh feeding this child more than the other if if they're deciding to breastfeed and there's other things as well but uh you know there some interesting studies that that men who take time off paternity leave and spend a lot of time with their pregnant Wives begin to get a syndrome where they have all the symptoms the the wife has and sometimes stronger um food urges uh depression crying Jags uh uh preoccupation with the baby that's on its way uh and we find that those fathers that have this uh this syndrome do better in fathering they're they're better able to bond with the baby at the very beginning uh because they're bonding with the mother and and sort of having these sympathetic symptoms that the mother is having because she they're spending so much time together is it where you see that hormonal shift like there is a hormone shift the testosterone drops estrogen increases right right and oxytocin invasor pressin increases as well so for the father there is what's occurring that he's developing a deeper sense of empathy and connection and and what is the benefit of that well mimicking or uh starting to have what you have is called aect contagion uh or in this case somatic Contagion and it is a form of empathy uh absolutely uh we're resonating I'm starting to feel what you feel I'm starting to understand what it might be like to you uh uh for you and that's always good because uh it's very hard to empathize with another person who is caring a child who's having that experience of their body changing and uh their brains changing because of hormones and neurotransmitters very hard to step into that person's shoes so this syndrome tends to actually increase empathy uh and compassion but also begins to prepare the father for the uh the coming child which ordinarily fathers are prepared you know the the mother is experiencing this preparation by having uh the baby inside of her right yeah so there's a Time factor of how much time we spend with each other in general partners that spend more time with each other are more likely to influence each other than Partners who are beginning to drift or are siloed and in our culture men when uh there are babies uh tend to leave that to the women and to go off to work and uh back in the day when women would get together in clutches they would raise these babies and these toddlers together they would have each other to support each other they would have each other other to talk to they uh would help uh each other manage each child and so we don't have that anymore um the average couple is isolated um many times isolated from their families of origin uh they're too far away or maybe they're not in speaking terms uh there isn't a network of other uh uh families to uh to be together so that it keeps the parents company and they have adults to talk to uh we're more and more isolated and uh and at a a time when it's really needed that support emotional support uh resourcing for the mother and the father it's least available to us and so that's yet another another problem facing our culture other than what sounds like really the absence of Village which really doesn't you know one person cannot caretake everyone's needs and to have all this support from other women other men aunts and uncles that are not maybe blood but also blood is there other things in this modern world because this is world is so different than the world we're alluding to that we're sort of biologically prepared for right like how do things like social media impact this and a great gosh so many things it's a great question the problem with social media isn't what we think uh kids will adapt if they're uh if during the critical periods of development if they got what they needed they'll adapt to new technology like everybody else it's not going to ruin them but we do worry about parents that are preoccupied with their phones with their screens and uh this during the period uh you know of birth and 18 months uh it's a very critical time when uh brain regions are being set up systems are being set up and requires a lot of face-to-face skin skin eye to eye interaction um that's continuous so the more distracted parents are with their devices this is where I fear uh could cause a problem later on down the line starting at 8 actually uh but then also of reemerging uh at uh uh pre-adolescence and Adolescence proper so that's the part I worry about not that technology is going to ruin kids but that kids are possibly not getting what what they need in terms of FaceTime skin time attention uh uh by their parents who are constantly being distracted that's a problem yeah I noticed that with my screen time since having Jasper has gotten way down and part of that is this awareness that I have that when he's looking at me I need to be looking at him yes you know and it if I I will check my phone if there's something I absolutely need to attend to but what I've noticed is the pull this like addictive pull to be like oh what's happening over there and I'm curious when you talk about it coming back at age 8 or in early early adolescence what does that look like if a parent is not attuned if a parent is let's say cruising Instagram while their baby's like hello I'm over here you were saying that that's where you might see the concerns in those later ages it it's there are a lot of um things that are happening during infancy in the first few years uh like I said the right hemisphere is being set up uh regulatory systems are being set up the autoimmune system uh the autonomic nervous system all of these systems including the neuroendocrine stress system all being set up during this time and there's there are these windows of opportunity where brain areas that specialize in certain things like reading faces reading inter receptive cues uh being able to uh build lexicon of facial expressions all of these are happening at this time and then nature moves on to other development and so there there is a real uh deficit that can occur not to mention that uh we know that the more people that are involved in parenting uh to your to the other point uh takes a village the more people involved the better for the baby because these people are are stimulants right they're they're objects that uh that enable uh you know uh brain cells to be active and not get pruned in infancy because of non-activity uh uh they create uh much more uh sympathetic parasympathetic neurons in particularly the front area which is necessary for being uh a well-regulated human being so so the more the merrier but the contact contact contact uh otherwise what happens is that and this is the worst case scenario iio in the first year of Life there is a um an event that is normal called apoptosis where the uh brain cells literally commit suicide because they're not used right they're not used and that's a pruning to make the brain leaner and meaner and more efficient right uh to get rid of things that aren't needed uh in some cases of neglect which most of your audience doesn't do we're talking about the Romanian babies uh uh uh that were studied that were terribly neglected um there's you know permanent damage there so this this matter of stimulation which is basically a person not a TV not a screen not a mobile but a face a body is really essential for building a human being from the very beginning and that process continues to build on itself as time and development moves on so uh we want to start well this episode is sponsored by better help so much of the focus of the conversation during the holiday season is about family interacting with family how do we be around them what type of gifts should we get a person Etc but the conversation isn't often about us about what we need and what would be a great gift to gift ourselves during the holiday season now a great gift that will pay dividence in every area of our life but especially our relationships is the gift of introspection and what can help on the adventure to self-awareness is things like therapy or just easing up her schedule so that we have a little more time to consider ourselves right to actually be with ourselves our thoughts our feelings because so often in a culture that is focused on other there is such an absence of being present with ourselves and really thinking about what we need now for me getting support by talking to a therapist has always been so helpful especially when I felt alone or or like no one else could understand or the people who were around me were my friends or my family and I wanted actually an independent objective person to be able to hear what I was going through so that I could get good advice to move through whatever I was going through now it's helped me become a much better person it's helped me to have someone to reflect thoughts and feelings with and to navigate tough situations and of course Seasons like the holidays therapy has allowed me to be more present and to experience less anxiety as I head into holiday seasons because I know that I have access to someone to talk to you and what boundaries I need as I navigate different life events if therapy sounds like something that could be good for you too give better help a try you can make it easily work with your schedule and it's a quick way to get relief even if you're busy all you do is fill out a quick questionnaire and you'll get matched with a licensed therapist and don't worry you can switch therapists at any time for no additional charge in the season of giving give yourself what you need with betterhelp visit betterhelp.com today and get 10% off your first month that's betterhelp a G lp.com Groves when a child uh is not witnessing their parents interact or parents interacting with their phone and not them is it actually doesn't allow them to develop empathy the child right because mirroring don't they develop empathy through the obser observation of facial expression empathy comes on later uh uh it's a different system it's combined it's a network right it's a network that is both vertical in the brain ver vertical horizontal diagonal um and so uh empathy is uh is comes later in development with the full awareness of another person and that is uh kind of like mitosis you know imagine cells that are dividing first there is a single cell um mother baby are one there is no separation right and that that cell divides and then it divides again into fours and it divides again and so on so with each period of development the baby is taking on more and more in its environment and beginning to differentiate between itself starting with the body like I am myself right there's right my body not my body um me not me later right me not me later and so there's this process of sorting all the objects that are external to the baby first they're not external they're one but then they become external and become identified and that's a process that goes on through life yeah right I begin to just see you as a breast or I see your feet or I just see you know U your eyes uh I don't see you as a whole person yet but then I start to then I start to because I'm expanding my vision so we know how I mean this modern world there's obviously a lot of distractions a lot of things and we're talking about the impact on baby I'm curious what is the impact on a couple with the way that we all the things that we have in the world that that weren't around 100 years ago 30 years ago well one thing I think we become more ADHD right we're distracted uh our tolerance for long form books stories is degraded we want everything now uh we're used to uh looking like you know uh the dog dug in in up you know squirrel yeah we're constantly doing swirl and so there's that part of that is a sort of an RPM issue clock issue how um actually a dopamine issue is that I'm constantly finding ways to get a dopamine dump by looking for something new right and phones and devices technology is constantly serving that up to us which the brain loves brain loves two things novelty and mov objects of which uh these devices offer us and so then we want to talk to some we want to text somebody oh the baby just did this the baby just did that right uh we we're taking pictures of the baby or taking pictures of of each other but there's other problems other than the attention issue right and attention is a big issue like being able to hang out with somebody without doing anything yeah uh you know we get bored right away we get the niche we got to be doing something that's that's a problem but then also on modern times we don't have the same assisant we don't have uh someone to help us at night one of the main problems is not you know parents getting no sleep because there's nobody to help at night time so they can get some sleep um they're under resourced in terms of finances that's going to be bad for them they are underresourced because they don't know how to be boyfriend and girlfriend or girlfriend and girlfriend or boyfriend or boyfriend that they are the C should be the of the universe they're the creators of their relationship and they happen to be the creators of this new being therefore they can't lose their coupledom otherwise they will begin to drift eventually and that won't work for the baby it won't work for the children and that certainly won't work for them so we want them to remain uh in courtship with each other in whatever way that means to them and that they are resourcing each other and again I think it's important that fathers take their paternal leaves and they're there also at that time and not left out because this is a time to support the primary so the primary is supporting the baby right look at it at as the the um regulating who's regulating the baby uh well let's say it's the mother figure could be the father figure this is true by the way of samex uh relationships doesn't matter uh the other parent what do they do well they could bond with the baby but they will not likely be the primary primary is the one that spends the most time has the most tentacles Roots that's Kylie for sure the one who carried that baby uh you know uh baby was acclimated to the sound right away uh and was is being fed so let's say that primary uh need needs to be regulated the other uh caregiver the other parent the other partner regulates that person so that so you support the primary right I support my wife as she's dealing uh intensely with the baby because that intensity we know is a necessary condition for that development uh that is occurring so early in the baby's life to happen right mother has to be regulated other wise she won't have the resources to do her job and uh that comes from the outside and that could easily be the other partner right so that's in this sense there's sort of a chain of care yeah when you go from this two to three and I'd like to explore because in my experience I was cognizant of feeling like hey Mom and Kylie and Jasper have this constant Bond touch everything and I'm like hey you know and I was conscious of that I brought that forward that hey I'm just processing what it feels like to not get the I get cuddles from them but it's very yes I'm like is there leftover cuddles it's very exclusive so what does the shift from 2 to three actually look like especially if it's done well if it's done well uh partners are signaling to each other that they still remain as primaries right they're still primaries and uh and that that solves the the mismanagement of thirds problem mismanagement of thirds is where one partner uh has a particular relationship with a thing an activity a person to the exclusion of the other that breeds jealousy jealousy is I have something that is threatening to be taken away from me right that's jealousy whereas Envy is you have something I want I already have something and now it's threatening uh the baby is threatening what I have uh my exclusive relationship with my partner hey dude so uh so I've got to understand that and my partner has to understand that and mitigate it in other words make sure that we're in good order and that I'm not being replaced and that I have a seat at this table as co-parent right so that's already thought about ahead of time the Agreements are there and and then of course permission to enforce those agreements that will ensure you and I stay a couple right during all this what does that positive signaling look like for a couple it could be I love you you're my person um we look what we did um you're such a good parent um I can't wait to be with you tonight um right this is ours um or it can also be um the non- primary parent understanding what it feels like to be the primary I bet you don't feel like being touched right now and you're being touched by everybody pushed and pulled um uh let's say we do something and I and and you can just be there we won't have to do anything we don't have to touch right it's called over touch I bet bet this must be feeling all sorts of ways postpartum I understand it I've I've been reading on it and so I'm able to take care of you while you're taking care of baby right because we all need you to be okay so we're doing things that include each other that suggest that this is our creation and our creation came out of our creation of what this Union we have with this Alliance we have means and why we are doing it we're not just doing it because we love each other because love comes and goes we're doing it it for a higher purpose maybe it is we have each other's backs at all times we are survivalists we're going to survive we're going to thrive together we're going to do things where it's us against the world we're going to please each other blah blah blah whatever it is right but we have a sense of purpose and a sense of vision of where we're going it's not just for baby because baby and and children in general are just passing through they're going to be gone uh it's still us so anything that just protects that primary attachment system between the lovers it has to be an experience that both partners are responsible for so they don't drop each other they don't drop each other and this will solve all of those problems um uh and more that are coming that involve thirds by the way yeah because with Kylie and I I was cognizant of this shift that we would go from a 2 to three I would was not necess I knew emotions would come I wasn't necessarily prepared or understood how to hold them yet yes but I would bring It Forward into our relationship like hey I'm I'm feeling kind of like I'm this third person over here but when I read baby Bomb it made me so much more uh intentional about these conversations and bringing forward that we're a team yes and I'm we're talking about what makes these couples successful like how do you maintain the two with the three so we just talked about how it goes well what happens if it doesn't go well what does that look like well that's why we wrote the book can I can I back up one second and answer that question so I I have been interested in prevention for many years and I tried to uh study I did study babies and I studied babies and their caregivers and then I wanted to do early prevention and have those uh those caregivers come in studio in in uh uh my my clinic where I would video tap them as I do with couples and uh and then I would help that bonding situation I would help whatever was beginning to go off track a little bit between a parent and baby unfortunately we don't live in a culture that that uh is into prevention very much and I couldn't get an audience I couldn't get a population here so that's why I switched to couples one of the reasons so I can help children by Shoring up the couple relationship if the couple is in good shape baby will be much better off than if they're not so one of the crises would be that oh my God where do we start uh one person didn't want the baby and felt that they had to do it in order to keep the relationship bad bad bad bad bad that's bad for everybody should not happen uh uh I wish people would not do that I understand why they do but I wish they wouldn't or we just thought we could do this you know it couldn't be that hard everybody's been doing it since the beginning of the species uh and and they don't prepare they don't prepare for what is to come they don't think about what could possibly go wrong right they don't think about Downstream effects and they certainly don't think about their relationship what will this do right then there are people who have babies because their relationship is in trouble that's an old Trope right bad reason to have it no it doesn't Shore up your marriage it may give you something to do that takes your mind off of the partner you don't want to be with but that's again not good for each other and not good for the children other crises Financial crises uh parents dying uh and this is uh weirdly oddly common a parent or a Grandparent Dies just when the baby's born wow right and so there's the there's there are losses that weren't uh expected uh and then that's adding another load piece of load bearing on the couple someone loses their job there's not enough they didn't plan ahead to have support and they didn't realize what it would feel like and now they're fighting about it or the primary caregiver realizes they hate being home alone this much they're itching for an adult conversation they need to get back to work they feel like they've made a mistake right they love this baby but they also didn't count on what it would feel like in real time without the support where these are just some of the many IES and then of course something's wrong with baby um uh not all babies are equal and many times there are problems gird that's you know uh diagnosable but nobody knows what it is when the baby is crying conly uh you know um or any number of things that are going on internally that is causing uh the baby pain um then is also causing the caregivers pain because they can't Comfort the baby um we tend to not like that which we can't manage right makes sense um you know I it shouldn't be that way but it is that way uh you know baby's KY has gird I can't I can't settle the baby I start to not like the baby and that's where intervention really must come in right so uh uh so these are the kind of crises that will sort of make everything harder um and there are many more that I could think of so what would be some symptoms of a relationship that is in crisis because they don't have this Bedrock of coupledom here's the thing if Partners do not predict plan and prepare for what could possibly go wrong then they walk into a situation where they are unprepared and they're going to do whatever they need to do to protect themselves from each other um this is human nature right so unless they are prepared and they set up already the parameters of what we're going to do if then right and how are we going to govern each other by permission right do I have permission to stop you if you do this yes you do okay great do I have permission to push you if you don't do this yes you do okay that's how we would govern but let's say the average couple who does not have this right did not think about it they're going to with this third make a ton of errors in communication with memory with perception and they are going to to if under stress uh going to use pattern recognition to determine whether the other is a threat to them this is not a very fancy thing this is what we all do uh we don't have that much energy to constantly think critically so we use cheap memory pattern recognition it looks like you're uh getting in my way therefore you are it looks like you don't understand me therefore you don't or it seems like you just said something unkind to me criticizing me therefore you did and that starts a war right it starts light but because threat is accumulative if it's not repaired if you and I don't say you know I'm sorry sweetheart I I shouldn't have done that that was wrong if we don't do that on a regular basis then we start to acrw memory that we deem as threatening that starts to accumulate and snowball uh to the point where we have a biologic iCal problem where we are no longer allies you and I we're adversaries we're adversaries and we stop talking we stop sleeping together we stop uh uh interacting we don't do good things that couples should do we stick to our lanes we start to go off into different directions these are the problems that we're trying to avoid that can start seemingly benignly but if not uh not dealt with quickly this snowballs and it's a Cascade actually toward towards to solution in the book you talk about practices that couples can do in order to find success and create a good connection maybe once again yes and you referred to co-regulating practices so maybe could you speak to what that might look like improving communication sure so when I say co-regulation I'm talking about States right we could think of them as emotions emotions are wrapped up in States right uh I'm in a certain state of mind that includes sadness and anger uh I'm in a certain State of Mind where my heart rate is going so high I can barely sit still uh my state is such that um my heart rate and blood pressure has dropped to the point where I can hardly think or talk right these are states of mind and body and they govern us right uh this our state of mind triggers memory memory triggers state of mind and State of Mind Alters perception like a funh house Mir this is this is how we're dealing with each other all the time on this slippery ground yeah so you and I have to be really good at managing each other's State now unfortunately we come from a culture that is wrong about this you should regulate yourself and take care of yourself go to therap uh you do your thing I'll do my thing right uh and that is actually false in terms of how we are wired as human primates it is much more efficient for me to regulate you and you to regulate me in real time than it is for me to think about what I am feeling at the moment therefore I can see it in your face if I'm looking at you I can tell if you are starting to climb sympathetically to a place where anger resides Terror resides fear resides but also you know uh horniness and uh and and delight and joy right and Terror right but but I'm keeping tabs on that because I want to be able to influence you I want to be able to have an audience right and if you feel unsafe with me or insecure with me at any time I I am no longer able to influence you therefore I have a job a job is to return you to safety return you to Security in any means possible usually the quickest route with an expression with a touch with a saying you know I did I do that thing again I'm sorry um I'm sorry or to say I promise you you will not lose I will make sure you don't lose I won't lose you won't lose right I think of you and consider you at the same time I'm considering myself which keeps you calm which keeps you in the saddle so to speak and now I'm able to influence you and you me but as soon as you start to get tipped over either going up in uh your heart rate is climbing uh blood pressure is climbing or you're dropping which is a little more concerning for us humans uh I must do something right away or I've lost my partner I've lost my audience think of it as we're on a tight wire you and I and on that tight wire we have to watch each other like Hawks because we're looking for signs that the other person is starting to lose confidence or it's starting to wobble a little bit uh we have to do something to keep ourselves straight otherwise we both fall that's this that's the game so you and I are talking about something difficult and one of us is under stress that's really when we slow things down keep eyes on each other and make sure we're both okay he at every point or game over we walk away with nothing so co-regulation is basically done autonomically unless and until one of us is under stress and then we start to revert to a oneperson system of I me mine and U youu you where we're adversarial everyone will do this everyone no exceptions this is a human problem and unless we know better we're going to step into a threat system whereby you have gotten no sign for me that I care the least about what you're worried about what you want that then puts you in a position to have to do that yourself and now we're now we're congealed and we're bumping up against each other that is so much a part of our our condition that we see it everywhere we see it everywhere I start to confuse you as the enemy you're not but I feel that I'm being threatened my interests are being threatened um my trust in you is threatened right all of these things make us very primitive it's a real Primal experience uh that we have with our survival Instinct it it doesn't care about who is threatening us what is threatening us I I shoot first ask questions later and so co-regulation is the ability for us to be Masters at each other if you start to get upset I know how to calm you if you get depressed I know how to raise you up if you start to get anxious I know how to soothe you you know how to do that with me I know you I know the animal I chose I know how to talk to you how to uh start uh a conversation how to how to uh get you to land on your feet I know how to work you without using a stick or a whip that's competence that's competence that in a way we're each other's first children I have to be competent parenting you and you me in order to be a really good parent with this little kid who's going to be easier than us in a relationship is there one person that tends to do that more than the other and are they supposed to take turns like is that an agreement people should make they are a co-regulatory team if we were studying them really studying them we would see they are a co-regulatory team now when we start to interview them we may find that one person does the bulk the main bulk of the regulation for the system we call that person the master regulator and the way we know this if the master regulator were to catch cold or to fall ill for some reason there's a problem in the system in that marital system couple system if the non-master regulator gets sick nothing happens right so you start to know that there's someone who's carrying the bulk of this I'd say for me that's my wife my wife is Master she's like Yoda right damn well I'm I I think I'm a more difficult ner nervous person than she is and she's much more incompetent but um so that's normal that's not a problem and usually people don't complain about that people will complain when somebody is uh is drawing resources to themselves from their partner without ever returning it oh that's codependency yeah it's in One Direction only and that will be unfair and that will breed resentment but there are instances when you go down you're not able to do anything I have the medicine therefore as my partner in crime my the person who I'm in the Foxhole with I must help you otherwise I'm screwed too because I depend on you so I'm going to do everything in my power to write you because I can and you can't you're going to do that for me when I can't uh and you can this way we're we're that team that if you go down I'm going to be there I'm not going to leave you I'm not going to dump you I'm not going to make it worse I know you I'm going to help you out and then we're going to get back to work right how does a baby impact that system well baby is needing constantly right baby is non-verbal and is using non-verbal means to attract the primary caregiver this is what uh W wincott called the maternal U primary preoccupation it's a kind of intuition uh ESP that the primary has with the baby I can feel the baby needs me right now that could be intrusive right that could uh get in the way of um the the time that we're together right because I'm always aware of that baby the baby survival depends on me and we're we're really connected in some very strange ways that are hard to prove but we know it exists I can feel the baby needs me right now right and so that's supposed to that's a good thing that could get in the way I think the problems with children happen later on when the children are going through crisis that affect the parents like in the first few years where the child is practicing mobilized and is crawling away or now walking away from the parents they worry the child is going to run into reality harshly uh because the child doesn't uh isn't aware of that and so uh there's always eyes on the child where are they what are they getting into and so on but then even more when the child gets to a phase of ambivalence where I need your help I don't want your help I need your help you're great you're a smart person uh no you're a disappointment you're uh you can't do this for the first time I realize you're incompetent and now I'm mad at you because I don't have help right and that's a very tough period both for the child and on the parents if they don't know what's coming right and if their relationship isn't good and that's going to happen a lot as the uh as children yeah buckle up it's going to be a bumpy ride I'm really excited to 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electromagnetic field radiation which is much harder to block but equally as important and as a bonus their phone cases provide military grade draw protection which is also tested for so if you're like me and you want to protect your C from getting Red by RF check out safe sleeves phone cases anti-radiation headphones RF blocking blanket and more awesome products that keep you safe go to saf slec cases.com and use the code groves1 for 10% off at checkout in the book you talk about this concept of fighting for two winners yes I loved it as soon as I read it I was like oh that to make that the intention of every dialogue every conflict that we are a team and we come back together so what does fighting for two winners sound like and what is it in practice ractice it means that neither of us can lose otherwise we both lose and what is that based on if we were a three-legged race which I believe couples are uh our inner legs are tied we would learn rapidly that we're independent autonomous adults with free will but we're tied together so we have to move together or we don't move we have to be cooperative and collaborative or we get nothing done we can't go to the bathroom together we can't do any of this stuff right so it's based on the IDE of interdependence you and I have the same things to gain and the same things to lose there's nothing I can do to you that won't come back to me in the same form right uh there is no thing that is unfair that will not affect me because you'll resent me and I'll pay for it therefore I cannot afford for you to lose and for me to win because that causes definite Downstream bad effects for me selfishly so it's the idea of win-win because we're moving together as two separate individuals two people who are different two annoying pain in the asses burdens disappointing human primates um but we know how to work together and we know how to make sure it's uh it's good for me and good for you or or the factory stops uh we stop doing anything we go we basically start to go to war and it's stupid to have a war in your own Foxhole right right so we can't afford to do that therefore I have to think of you and consider you at the same time I'm considering myself or you'll confuse me as an adversary that's how this works fighting for two winners sounds really great in theory I'm curious if parents have different opinions on parenting Styles different opinions on just what how a kid should be managed when they do something quote unquote wrong of course it seems like that would be really hard to manage what would be the Fallout of having two different parenting Styles geez what could possibly be wrong right okay that is a fact there's going to be two different yeah parenting Styles that's a feature not a bug right we know that uh children do better with two different parents maybe three or four different parents it's even better because that's that is more learning for the child in terms of different styles different people different ways of talking different ways of doing everything right now if you and I picked each other right we picked each other based on recognition and familiarity we should have before having a child we should have uh cocreated our culture our relationship ethics what we're going to do what we're never going to do so say us both right right we already have an idea of our beliefs and how we're going to deal with each other that's one mhm two I would ask parents let's start here do you both have the same purpose as parents let's say the purpose is to be the best parent you can be do you both agree uniformly so far no one said no uh yes we both want to be the best parents we can be good you agree now let's talk about vision for your children right this is about what you want the Endo to be do you both want your children to be happy and healthy they're both going to say yes do you want your children to be good citizens in the world they're going to say yes do you want your children to be resilient and not give up easily yes do you want your children to respect others and respect their things and to be organized and tidy yes right so I'm going to go down the line uh I could do more but I could say so far the two of you agree on everything the only thing you're not going to agree on is how to accomplish these things that's not a problem because neither of you are experts there is no expert here there is no book that can say how to parent this particular child right all children are different it's an improv it is the two of you being able to work together as a team always and forever trying to find the best thing we could do at this pivot point and then come back and see how well it was and whether we achieved it and then redesign that's what parenting is it's a constant moving Target depends on the two of you being collaborative and Cooperative that means you got to work together together as two different people right now if you really think this parent should not be parenting then you should call Child Protective Services if you think they're doing harm are they doing harm no no no I don't mean that okay then stop it because you're both going to try to get to the same place differently and that's not a bad thing it's not you do not protect each your CH your children from each other that's the start of a a horrible marriage and uh and your kids are going to hate you for it does that demonstrate when that exists is that a demonstration that we maybe lack openness to influence from our partner yes because uh they're already in trouble at the at this point right uh you might think oh we didn't expect this to happen but uh but any anybody who witnessed and followed this couple's trajectory would know that of course this would happen because they're ill-prepared as a team right and so that's again the reason for baby Bomb or anything that prepares uh parents for what is to come uh like Blended families uh like anything right um so this is teamwork uh this is not about uh this is how my family raised us so therefore we have to raise this child the way my family did no your families are no longer uh the issue here there to posed you too are the leaders are the creators are the big bosses you're in charge of this thing and you're supposed to create it yourselves as something entirely different not your parents that's what most of us do because we're lazy we're energy conserved which is why we never look at ourselves we don't have time or care right the only time we do is when we're suffering I'd rather you learn this without having to suffer yeah that this is your creation it's Unique and it's constantly being Modified by the two of you according to what you both want period Stan do you think that we tend to parent our children unconsciously the way we were parented like just uh repeating what is familiar even though we have this opportunity to create a customized parenting machine for K absolutely nature repeats itself it's not only parenting that we rep we repeat everything we're we are made up of memory we are behaving according to memory most of the time thinking critically takes up too much energy it's energy expending we like other uh creatures uh in biology are energy conserving we do the least amount necessary so we have reserves for actually having to do something we have to think about so yes we are going to repeat ourselves that's natural it's not personal it's not good bad right or wrong but it is something that we can work against to a degree when generals fight soldiers die um when parents fight children suffer and so this is about working together to find the best way in this moment even if it's temporary for now right that's the spirit of this uh they're both generals and they have to treat each other as such not talk down to each other so they have to find another way to lead than the way they've been doing so I just want to Pivot because this subject I know is a hot one that comes up for all new parents but not even just new parents oh God it's got to be sex exactly it's sex that is the subject I want to confront and other than things like healing that is required for the mother there's also the absence of time like time alone that you can spend and have that intimacy what are some reasons that sex declines and what are some ways that we can rekindle it so sex declines throughout the lifespan for a lot of different reasons most of them are biological some of them are psychobiological after the birth of a child there is uh a a need for the non-caring partner the one who didn't carry to really understand what that would feel like and how long it takes perhaps depending on how much the body was messed with how long it takes for that to heal because the body may have been invaded if it's a C-section there's a lot of things that happen psychologically as well then there are hormones postpartum uh depression anxiety there is also the hyperfocus on the baby I've fallen in love with my a baby right which is a necessary condition uh and then there is overt uh you know I'm breastfeeding uh I'm being pulled at I'm tired of being pulled at I don't want to be pulled at uh leave me alone then there is usually if it's a male who's the other partner classically insensitive to all of these things and will not spend time imagining what it might be like to be in their partner's body uh I hear this quite a bit and they also part of thirds if they're feeling threatened suddenly they want a lot of sex you know maybe it's to consolidate their place with the with their female partner who knows but everyone has different sense of libido here's another thing that women talk about I hate my body post pregnancy um I don't like my boobs I don't like my butt I don't like my stomach I don't like my thighs um there is a a hit to to one's self-esteem based on appearance and uh I think all women would probably uh hit that and have that feelings some who are more vain perhaps uh care more about Youth and Beauty this could be really devastating for them and I don't feel attracted or attractive I don't want to do that but much as the time it's reacting to an expectation and a demand by the other partner who is insensitive ill-timed and wants something for themselves it a message received by the female partner this is for you not for me uh I think you can f off um as far as rekindling intimacy first Partners have to understand what intimacy is and and we exist in a culture that really is kind of messed up with all these messages about sex the real truth is that sex changes over time no matter what because we're we're moving through time we're changing constantly to expect that sex should be as it was prior to the birth of a child or when we first met is not only naive it's impossible so we make love we're intimate for the time we are in period we don't try to reach back and replicate something because that ship sailed therefore intimacy is for the moment it includes presence and attention presence and attention not automation not expectation not demand and it certainly shouldn't be performative because that kills the intimacy intimacy L making can be having intercourse but not necessarily could be having oral sex but not necessarily it could be pillow talk it could be the thing we used to do when we went on sleepovers or uh camping out we could talk all night about what we don't know about each other that's kind of fun we could explore each other's bodies and look for like most primates do anything wrong um we could gaze into each other's eyes uh and ask each other questions there is a ton of things we can do but all of it all of it is predicated on presence and attention presence and attention and then like child rearing it's improv most people don't do that most people don't improvise most people want to do what's in their head uh or want to repeat what they've done before and that leads to boredom and sometimes it leads to the other person feeling like an object like you're not really seeing me you're playing something out in your head so this is something about maturity this is about knowing and understanding what real intimacy and love making is sometimes it's about penetrative sex sometimes it's about orgasms sometimes it's about getting to know you getting to know all about you and everything in between so again this is about growing up this is about accepting uh and grieving losses we're losing from the minute we're born we're constantly losing things we're gaining things but we're losing things and we are supposed to grieve those losses not tantrum that they uh shouldn't be gone they we should still have it and that keeps us from moving forward that keeps us from being where we are well I'm sure for people listening that is good news that they can get intimacy back and not just back but perhaps deeper than they've had ever had it that they get to know each other as a couple so much better because for Kylie and I and for my experience is that having Jasper has one shown me where I actually wasn't as clean in my communication as I could be and there was still little tender pieces of me coming up feeling left out that kind of stuff and in reading your book immediately that day when I was finishing it I was bringing forward a lot of the stuff I was reading to Kylie and what I was learning and what I missed about us and and really coming back as a team like there was a couple moments in the book where I got emotional and I like shed a tear in the way that um conflict was handled that I was like I'm getting emotional now that I just felt like oh this is reminding me of how important this work is and how beautiful an opportunity it is for Kylie and I to become even better and it was easy to forget about being a team when we were overwhelmed and there was so much going on but now I feel like through this book through conversations with you I feel like there's a way through this that there's like not just a way through but we're going to be better than we ever have yes and I think what I love so much about your work and the way that you in to relationship is that everything is an opportunity to be a better couple and so much of the work we haven't done prior to the child because it might be the first time we're like agreements what and so thank you so much for the way that you look at love and relationship and couples because you have and continuing to give us tools to actually build a solid us and also through an us create really amazing kids and humans and adults I adore you Mark I really do you're a good person and uh I love what you do as well thanks so much and I'm so grateful to have you back on we were already scheming a third time uh before we hit record so I'm excited to have you back on again for people listening where can they find more about the pack Institute as well as I know you have Retreats that couples can go on and also wear your books well I started off as a professor that still am teaching uh therapists how to do my Approach so go to the pack institute.com that's the P institute.com if you are in mental health and you want to be trained uh we do training all over the world and if you are a couple or both uh we do couple Retreats or uh actually couple workshops constantly online both Tracy and I and we have one coming coming up a uh sort of a five-star Retreat coming up at in uh next year in Porto Portugal and that is always amazing always amazing so you can find all that information there perfect and your books anywhere books books anywhere and I would direct people to the latest book in each other's care because I think here to for that is the clearest I think I've become with regard to how to fight well and how to structure your relationship properly beautiful thanks so much Stan really appreciate [Music] you

Channel: Mark Groves

Views: 477

Keywords: Authenticity, Belonging, Parenting, New Parents, Relationships, Boundaries, Attachment Theory, Transformation, Conflict, Mental Health, Psychology, Stan Tatkin, Dr. Stan Tatkin, Baby Bomb

Id: Ggo_ar2ezNA

Length: 63min 40sec (3820 seconds)

Published: Mon Dec 04 2023