Raphael Rowe Interview / Prison Life / Netflix: Inside the World's Toughest Prisons

my name's Rafael Grove and I spent 12 years inside some of Britain's toughest prisons for crimes I didn't commit for murder and a series of robberies now I'm a presenter for Netflix and I've traveled the world and gone inside some of the world's toughest prisons speaking to prisoners and prison guards about their experience I'm here to speak to the students Pocket Guide about my experiences firstly thank you for today ref I which I really appreciate is extremely valuable do you look at time differently now since what's happened in your life I've learned to be patient that's for sure when you're in prison you have to be patient because everything you do is dictated so I'm a very patient man or I try to be some people would say I'm not so patient with my time because I'm always in a hurry to get things done and to get it done as quickly as possible so that's kind of a conundrum you know I think I'm patient but people think I try to get things done differently but but I do value time because it's all we've got you know we age we can't look back we can only look forward so I look at time now as one of the most important things in my life because I lost such a long period of time in my life my most important period all of my 20s so time is important to me I mean knowing you as an innocent man it must have been a devastating moment in your life when you were told you're serving life without parole for a murder and a robbery he didn't come here being in prison for a crime you didn't commit his probably some people's worst nightmare when I was convicted and told I was going to spend the rest of my life in prison I never believed that was going to happen despite the fact that the judges said that's where I was going to spike the fact that the prison guards and the prison officers and even prisoners themselves would want to remind me and I'd see notices outside of my door with my name and the word life written on it or life are that's what you had better sort of a card and in handwritten was my name my prison number and the word lifer on another guy's card it might say two years and another vice card it might say something different so I was constantly reminded of the fact that I was going to spend the rest of my life in prison for a crime I didn't commit but I never for one minute in all the years I was in prison believed that as an innocent man they could keep me in prison for the rest of my life I wasn't gonna let that happen people who believed in my innocence we're not going to let that happen and we campaigned for many years to have my conviction returned and my belief come true my hopes came true because I'm sitting here now I never spent the rest of my life in prison and what was life like prior to that you know before that you got convicted wrongly convicted what was your life like I was a young happy-go-lucky teenager I was a bit feral you know I lived and grew up in the inner counts of the states of London in Camberwell in particular a lot of my friends were mixed in the sense that somewhere on the fringes of petty crime some were just you know happy-go-lucky guys like me I got in trouble with the police on a few occasions for petty crimes so I was known to the police if you like I was I didn't have a direction in life I I left school at 16 I did okay at school there was no opportunity for me nobody in my family had gone to university education wasn't the key or most important thing in my life or or with the people that I socialized with and I wasn't working before I ended up going to prison so life for me was kind of a day-to-day existence I didn't know what tomorrow was going to bring but I did know that I was enjoying life I did know that the people around me were good people even if they were themselves get any trouble with the police it was the society in the community that we grew up in so it was difficult and I had no vision I had no expectations I didn't have any ambition so I didn't know what what the next day was gonna bring but I enjoyed the day that I was living and how did you at that when your life training he was sent to prison - the scenario I think from the moment I was arrested and I was interrogated by the police and accused of murder and a series of robberies I knew that I didn't commit these crimes so during the interrogation process when I was in custody and being questioned by the police the questions about the crimes that they were accusing me of I knew I didn't commit so I was Mike Coakley in the police station you know 18 months on I'm now convicted of what I was being accused and during those 18 months it was a traumatic experience you know my time in prison being in a prison within a prison you know I was a high-security prisoner I wasn't just an ordinary prisoner I was in a prison within a prison office what a tease five as a category a prisoner and I think the most profound effect of being locked up at twenty years old was this happy-go-lucky guy I was on the streets became a man overnight I became quite militant I became quite militaristic I became quite self-centered and very determined so my whole persona my whole outlook in life changed almost overnight here I was confined in a space accused of the worst of all crimes knowing that if I was going to be convicted this is before I actually got to trial and convicted that I would spend the rest of my life in prison or sentence to to life imprisonment my whole persona my whole character changed overnight can you describe a typical day in prison as a 20 year old young man there's not a typical day in prison prison throws at you different things every day and during the remand Peter when I was accused and waiting to be put on trial for the crimes I didn't commit it was a very different experience to the experience I experienced once I've been convicted so there's a remand prisoner at 20 years old a typical day for me goes like this so I was in Brixton prison in London I wasn't just in Brixton prison I was in a prison within Brixton prison so in Brixton prison they had a particular unit which was inside the prison and it was the most secure unit in the country and I along by 20 other men and I was still a teenager because I was 20 were housed in here so we're talking about terrorists and some of the country's most dangerous criminals stirs an international drug cartel individuals Colombians etc so I was being kept in a Cell in this prison within a prison and my cell didn't have sanitation so if I needed to pee or poo I did it in a plastic bucket I ate offer plastic plates and use plastic knives and forks the water that I would used to drink came out of a white water jug that you'd fill up from the recess when you were allowed out of yourself I was kept in my cell 22 hours a day my cell had a a bed a horrible bed a metal bed with a horrible black foamed mattress which was very uncomfortable and well used it had sheets and I had a pillow I had a table and a chair made of wood a metal and the only material they gave me in that cell was a Bible and I'm very proud to say that I've never read the Bible those 22 hours in the cell work were horrendous and very mind testing three times a day my cell door would open the first time it would open in the morning and I would be quiet to slop out that doesn't quite happen today imprisoned but for me it meant taking that plastic potty with my pee and poo taking it alongside these other 20 men who I feared because they were very dangerous individuals and I was the youngest man in there and I'd empty this into a reset where everybody would empty so you can imagine the smell and then I'd fill my jug up with water I take that back to myself and I had sort of 15 minutes to carry out this task into my pot get my water and then go for breakfast and there would be a surgery inside the blob where I would pick up my breakfast porridge maybe an egg and a cup of tea horrible his teeth that you can imagine and then I'd be locked up for another few hours and then they'd open the cellar again and I'd be allowed to go on exercise now exercise was in a cage so I was allowed down some stairs into a caged area so he had cages on the top down the side barbed wire it was the most secure II housed you know this unit IRA suspects and as I say very dangerous individuals and I would exercise on my yard on my own as an a category prisoner that also meant I would have two guards with me everywhere I went I would have a dog so that prison officers would have a dog outside the cage while I walked around this cage 20 foot by 24 and I would get an hour out there if the weather wasn't good maybe half an hour if it was really bad I wouldn't get out at all I'd be allowed out onto the landing and could probably socialize on the landing and then the final hour would be to empty all this stuff that I'd accumulated during the day my you know food plates wash my cutlery empty my people and prepare for the final lockup and then on occasion maybe once or twice a week I'd be allowed out to socialize with some of the other prisoners and we'd be allowed out sort of five at a time so that would be a typical day for me in prison 22 hours banged up in the cell and over a period of 24 hours allowed out myself for a period of two maybe three hours and how do you men Sonique hope it's probably one of the most difficult things to answer how do you cope being in prison how do you cope being in prison for a crime you didn't commit you know you didn't commit other people know you didn't commit there is no easy way to describe how you cope with that but we are designed as human beings to withstand various adversities and that was probably the most extreme that I was facing at that particular time it got worse as time went on but I think I quote because I had hope I had hope at that stage that I wouldn't be convicted I had hope that my legal team would it I had hoped that my legal team would be prepared enough at my trial to prove that I didn't commit the crimes that I was being accused of so it was hope that's how I coped with hope and physical exercise I became this person who exercised in my cell every day I took up yoga as a four of relaxation to overcome the stress that I had to cope with every day so physical exercise and hope were the mechanisms I use to cope during not just those early years in prison but throughout my time in prison and throughout your time in prison is it true that you moved from prison to prison within the UK as a category a prisoner which is the highest security prisoner in this country not only did I move from prison to prison I move from cell to cell so I would only be kept in a Cell for two to three weeks at a time and so I and other a security prisoners would be moved from cell to cell so I could be in cell one for two weeks three reason and I'd moved to sell three for two to three weeks and that was for security reasons because the guard thought it was so secure we were deemed such dangerous prisoners that the cells would be inspected and we would need to be taken out of the cells and it would be inspected for any escapes or any attempted escapes or any kind of things that the security guards were worried about and then over the years over the 12 years that I spent wrongfully imprisoned I did move from prison to prison so I started off in Brixton prison I went to Worman Scrubs prison I went to one with prison free London prisons Pentonville prison another London prison I moved to Maidstone prison I went to swell side prison up into guard free prisoner with the Parkhurst prison so over the years one for security reasons and to the longer that I was in prison the sentence that I was serving different prisons house different prisoners your local prisons generally deal with your kind of conveyor belt of criminals low-level offenders short sentences most of the prisons that I spent my time in Ohio maximum-security prisons where there's very little movement and by that I mean very few people were being released because they were serving 15 20 25 years or life imprisonment for serious offenses any particular prisons within the UK that were much rougher than others or they're all much the same in my opinion every prison is tough it's it's tough it was for me because I was innocent every cell I spent time in it was tough to get through every day it was tough for me it was tough for my family it was tough for campaigners who knew that I was innocent and and others that supported me but there were things in prison that would alleviate some of that pain stress and toughness and for me it was always exercise it was in some of the more secure prisons the more the prison once I've been sentenced and I serve in the life sentence I was afforded more opportunities to socialize so I was out of my cell a little bit more the one thing I refused to do in all the years that I was in prison was work as a prisoner you're assigned a job and you have to do that job or you get punished because I wasn't conforming to what a convicted accepted convicted prisoner was was expected to do I resisted working and so I spent a lot of time in isolation III was punished as a result and I'll give you an example a prison officer would come to myself door whatever prison I was in at whatever point on my sentence made over my cell door and they'd say row three c60 you've got work detail in the workshop and I refused to do that work so the guards would come in they'd take me from my cell and they'd take me down to the isolation block I would then go in front of a governor who would say you've been asked to work you've refused to work you will be three days in isolation and that means 24 hours banged up in a Cell with just a bed and during the day that it would be taken out of the cell so it would just be a bare cell with me and a Bible and I've never read the Bible so that was their way of trying to to punish me and that happened for many many years and those three days became seven days became 14 days became months where I would spend much of my time in isolation because I refused to conform the only job I was prepared to do in prison was the gym orderlies job and the gym would lead job is where a prisoner works in the gymnasium helping other prisoners get fair organizing fitness classes and stuff like that so we're a prison was prepared to give me that job and in the latter years of the 12 years that I spent in prison do me so well my reputation preceded me so as I moved to another prison they made that job available to me so I kind of won through if you like that that was my only little victory in prison if ever there was one but that was the one thing that kept me sane having that job working with other prisoners and keep him physically fit helped me overcome the stress with my time and is it right age 26 you appealed and it was rejected it was early in I was convicted I was arrested in 1988 I was sentenced to life imprisonment in 1990 in 1993 my legal team had prepared my appeal and we took my case to the Court of Appeal and we argued the points that we believed would prove that I didn't commit the crime and my field was rejected and I was sent back to prison to spend the rest of my life in prison and what did that feel like what kept your mind focused during such traumatic times I was devastated in a way I can't describe when the appeal court judges rejected my appeal because everybody knew that our case was strong everybody knew that these crimes that I was convicted of were from the victims of the crimes described as the perpetrators was described as two white men and one black man yet three black men were in prison so that was our strongest point how could free black men and at the time the high was in prison I had dreadlocks some of the victims describe one of the perpetrators as having fair hair and blue eyes very much like new pick so you that person didn't fit my two co-defendants one had dreadlocks and he was darker than me and another one of my co-defendants was sort of African appear in short black hair very dark skin so he didn't fit the description that even the victims had described the perpetrators act so when we lost our appeal when that point was made alongside other points I was devastated I was devastated that we lost Erica because I really did believe not only that I wouldn't be convicted in the first place but that when we did get our case back to the Court of Appeal in 1993 my conviction would be quashed and it wasn't the judges in fact sent me back to prison to spend the rest of my life in prison and they would argue that we were guilty so after twelve years in prison you were freed and the Court of Appeal quashed your wrongful convictions what emotions were going through your mind as you walked out onto the public street as a free man after all those years of suffering it was a testing time when in 2000 so this is 12 years after my original conviction I was told I was going to appear in court and that my appeal against my conviction was going to be heard again and the only reason we got back to the court of appeal was because the European Court of Human Rights 21 independent judges from around the world or around Europe that sat down and looked at our case which had been submitted to them by some very specialist lawyers and twenty-one judges in the European Court unanimously agreed that our convictions were unsafe that there were elements about our case that were unsavory that were bias that will raise this and that there was evidence to prove that we couldn't commit crime didn't commit a crime and so it was those 21 judge he's not a British justice system but the European Court of Human Rights who referred our case back to the Court of Appeal and ordered the British criminal justice system to re-open our case and at the time the criminal case Review Commission which is the British body that looks at alleged miscarriages of justice and also agreed with the European Court there our convictions were potentially unsafe so combined they forced the Court of Appeal who were reluctant to hear my pill tattoo they had no choice when the European Court makes the judgement like that the British court system has to hear your appeal so we were in the Court of Appeal that the Royal Courts of Justice here in 2000 in July 2000 in front of three judges and we almost regurgitated a lot of the original evidence but in addition we'd accumulate new evidence about witnesses and conspiracies with the police and the Court of Appeal agreed that our convictions were unsafe in across not conviction and I remember sitting in that dock and and almost kind of losing all bone and muscle structure you kind of imagine you're wobbly and you have both all over your own body that's how my body felt is this really happening it was a quite a surreal moment my family and friends were cheering the lawyers were cheering everybody but the prosecution was so and the police obviously were cheering and that reverberating in me I was taken from the dock back down into the cells and processed by the cool guards and I was asked I remember being asked do you want to walk out the back because there's a lot of media out the front waiting and you might be intimidated by that or do you want to walk out the front and obviously I chose to walk out of the front and I remember them open in the court of a so for 12 years I've been confined in prisons and corridors and cells and you know enjoyed a lot of physical beatings enjoyed a lot of isolation I had a very very tough time in prison protesting my innocence so when I got to that door the one door that kept me from freedom and the guard put that key and I remember shaking and being really scared thinking that any second someone was gonna put their hand on my shoulder and say to me no this is not happening you've got to go back because it's something I experienced in all the years I was in prison I always felt when they were opening myself door they were coming in to say to me refa we're sorry we realized that you've been wrongfully imprisoned there are people here to take you home and that might sound a little childish but he's one of those things that someone like me held onto that every time my cell door open it wasn't a slop out it wasn't to go and get my breakfast it wasn't to go and see the governor or to go to the gym or glich job it was somebody saying we recognized we made a mistake you're free to go because for every day that I was imprisoned that's what I fought for every minute every second of every day I never gave up hope I never gave up fighting I never sat back and allowed what they were doing to me to continue without fighting in some way shape or form and he calls me a hell of a lot of problems in prison so when I was stood in front of that door in the corridor of the Court of Appeal and he was putting the key in the door and I'm locking that door I knew it was the last door that would be opened for me by somebody and closed behind me and I remember walking out and my family my immediate family my sister's my parents and my close friends and campaigners were standing there and I remember falling into their arms it was the first time in those 12 years that I shed a tear and it was a tear of joy and happiness and everybody else was very emotional and then I got very angry angry that it took so long you know these were all kind of thoughts and feelings that were going through me at that very moment and I remember being guided by my family and friends and campaigners to the front steps of the Court of Appeal and and I said my place you know 12 years of my life locked up in a crime I didn't commit and that was on the front tip of the series I've just done for Netflix that was a moment that I walked out so that's where you're getting to so I stand in here I'm talking to the media and you think that was the end of it but there was lots of things after that that was challenging and one of them immediately was getting into the back of a taxi and traveling faster than my feet could take me because for 12 years I never moved any faster than my feet could take me so it was really myrrh ties in to something that we take for granted you know we walk and we run at whatever miles u-haul Paperboy people not Usain Bolt so but for me it was what I could do so when I going back at the tacks in a taxi driver 20 miles and now I was disorientated when my sister handed me a mobile phone for the very first time because they didn't exist when I went to prison and mobile phone well they did but it was those big kind of things that you've held with two hands I don't remember them but people will I remember my sister give me a mobile phone and I didn't know what to do with it in prison you have you know typical kind of dynamite did it did it did it it hero was being handed a mobile phone so there were lots of other challenges long after I was released from prison walking out of that court for the very first time was a rush of various emotions so what it's worth freedom means you freedom means being able to and this is not my complete definition the freedom to me is about making choices for yourself because for 12 years I couldn't make any choices I couldn't decide when I went to the toilet I didn't go to the toilet I couldn't decide when to open and close the door I couldn't decide when I would see my family I couldn't decide when I'd write a letter I couldn't decide when I would speak to somebody or not speak to somebody I couldn't decide when I'd go to bed and get up from bed I couldn't decide what I want you to do in terms of educating myself or better in myself or fulfilling my ambitions and dreams I couldn't make any of those decisions so freedom to me is not just the physical the physical ability to sit here right now and talk to you that's a choice I've made so freedom to me is about making choices for yourself as far as forward to die and we're sitting here in a London hotel I've contacted you haven't seen your Netflix original series inside the world's toughest prisons the first prison you visit is Portobello Penitentiary in Brazil what was your first impression when he walked in I was apprehensive about going back into prison for making this series for Netflix but I knew that I had the experience the credibility and the knowledge to make a difference to bring people into this world when I walked into portobellos prison in rondônia in in Brazil it was it was a rendus it was it was dirty it was broken its smell it and the most overwhelming theme was it fell unlike British prisons which are very controlled by prison guards despite the myths that prisoners run prisons in Britain and we hear it all the time I never experienced in all the 12 years I've been in prison it's just not true in this Brazilian prison it was you could see the prisoners control this place so from the very first steps I took on the persona of the revell as mentor is in prison this guy who became tough we became determined to focus in on the prisoners and become one of them in order to survive even as a journalist going in there to make a film about their lives and the conditions they're living in I had to take on a persona to get through the seven days I was going to spend in this prison the cells are nothing like the cells that I spent I mean you know they live in dormitories pavilions they call them and they just have cages on the door so you know prisoner really wanted to they could kick that off it would just fall down so the will of the prisoners was important to the prison guards the the sleeping conditions were horrendous you know these guys six to eight guys sleeping in one cramped space the Sanitation they had it I didn't when I was in prison but it was a hole in the floor in this Brazilian prison you know their showers were out of a tub dirty water that they thought and poured over their head some people might say that it's a privilege for some prisoners but for me witnessing that it was a rendus it was discussed and it was dirty but most importantly it was dangerous you know these guys are guys that had killed other prisoners on a regular basis hundreds of prisoners have been killed through their gang wars you know the different gangs in these prisons so it was a horrible place to go into and that didn't wear off in all the time we were there yeah you get a little complacent moving around meeting guys and feel comfortable because they've accepted you and I was intricate in in making that happen they accepted me especially once they knew I myself had spent time in the prison it made the journey for us as journalists in there making this Netflix series easier and and slightly more cooperative but I never for one moment forgot where I was an hour dangerous this place was and is and how threatened we were every day because he only takes one or two prisoners to feel that they're not part of this show and that happened on a couple of occasions where guys were sort of feeling left out of not being able to share their stories and my antenna was to pick up on that where is the crew that I work who didn't have the experience I had and so they couldn't tune into that so I turn into that recognize that when they were oblivious to me and then I bring those guys in in some way shape or form so they would feel slightly less left out because guys like that can turn a situation on the flip of a coin you know they might decide by let's take these British journalists hostage let's hold them and make them get some leverage get some better conditions or something so I was always aware there was a danger to us it's very scary I mean pavillions see how's that about 180 mates in just 12 rundown cells and on multiple occasions they've been in riots ending it with brutal murders I mean what is being done to try and stop these rights from happening to be honest nothing I mean I spoke to the director of the Brazilian prison who said that they were doing as much as they could with the resources they have they have very little resources they have the same food every day and you saw me in the film eat in the food and for me it weren't as bad as these guys but these guys eat the same thing every day it was flavorless but it was meeting it was rice and they did ingenious things to try and made that more flavor sir and for that's all they get but they don't have the resources to change anything in these prisons these prisons and and I can't underestimate how these prisons are run by two particular gangs the PCC and the red command and and these these gangs do run prisons they were created in prisons and they run prisons across Brazil and they are prolific gangs outside of the prisons of control you know communities and states across the whole of Brazil and so everything depends on their willingness in in these prisons and the one surprising thing for me with the prisoners was they were not calling for conditions to change now some of their lives are so bad outside of prison that even though inside prison was in my eyes and Westerners eyes and others terrible horrific horrible these guys kind of felt it was a little bit better than what they had on the outside you know because they live in these favelas or in these communities that are just so bad and no running water no food no no prospects of jobs or work or anything that sometimes the conditions in prison were a break for them I'd like to think that one of the reasons that they gave us access to the Brazilian prison and some of the other prisons in the program was because the government's and the prison directors wanted the international community to see how they try to balance you know the security of prisoners with treating them with humanity and where possible rehabilitation Raphael a trapezoid is something new which structures of you are during the second episode you sit inches away from one of Ukraine's most deadliest serial killers convicted of killing over 35 females as young as eight years of age how did you prepare yourself to meet such a monster meeting surging to cash this Ukrainian kid it was probably the most surreal situation I've ever found myself and I've been to some hostile environments as my job I've been to some hostile environments as a journalist around the world Afghanistan Sierra Leone the Congo and I've seen some very horrible things prepare myself to meet this guy was was difficult I mean as a journalist I try not to find out too much about the individuals that I'm meeting in these prisons I mean there is a brief on occasion about one or two other characters we might me were always flexible that we might meet somebody in the prison who is a better character than somebody we thought we might speak to about their experiences so it's all quite flexible Serge was one of the Sergey Kotak to cash he was he was requested because we were aware that he was in this prison by the team that I was working with and I was sat in this room and I never felt someone comfortable in my life I'm comfortable that I was about to meet a man that in my time in prison I would not have given the time of day you know and he wouldn't have survived and I just didn't know what to expect I didn't know what he looked like I didn't know how old he was I knew he was an elderly man but I didn't know how old he was I didn't know whether he would be willing to communicate with me so when I was sat in this room what and there was this cage there that this guy was going to be put in it was intimidating on the one because for me to meet an obvious and very dangerous prisoners in my time and interacted with some very dangerous individuals in this country and during this the making of the Netflix series I just knew that my job being professional was to ask this guy questions that I was interested in finding the answers to but also what I thought the audience who would watch this would want to ask this guy and I tried to not I tried not to prepare in the sense that although I felt disgust me in this guy although I didn't want to meet somebody had committed the horrible crimes that he committed I thought it was important to try and understand these kinds of individuals and so when he walked into the room and I looked him in the eye I just saw this dead individual this man who committed horrible things and I couldn't help but constantly look at his hands I just kept thinking what he did with those hands the crimes that he committed was constantly drawn to those hands and thinking the things that he did he was only bi you know you had sex with the dead body because of eight years old women who's you know and I also know that this guy was responsible for not just 35 murders but was suspected of killing more than a hundred women and children and that 12 men had been imprisoned for his crimes so 12 innocent men had spent time in prison accused of the crimes that he committed and only once he'd been captured and he confessed to those crimes were those individuals released one of them actually committed suicide in prison and isn't that irony for you because I myself was in Krampus something somebody else had done so there was a little twist in there but he disgusted me he disgusted me disgusting individual and committed horrible crimes since being in prison he is also married and had a daughter in one episode during a conjugal visit is standing next to of a knife in his hand and his wife in the next room will you generally like scared for your own safety at this point you know I can this I conditioned myself when I was in prison to not fear another prisoner because I think if you show fear or weakness and that's not to say that I didn't feel fear at times and as I say I you know I was physically beaten by other prisoners by prison guards like experienced a lot of violence myself in prison and had to defend myself on on a number of occasions so standing next to a man like this a guy a prolific serial killer who had a knife in the kitchen I was more concerned for his wife I was more concerned that the authorities would allow somebody like him access and even though I was probably scared dig down I didn't want to show that fear and I know the team around me also were probably more scared than I was but like everybody he had a weakness and his weakness was his wife and it was the only thing he had and so that was sort of our only strength if you like that we were interviewing him with his wife and if he did anything to us during that time or at that moment he would lose the one thing that keeps him going in prison whether you agree that he should be still going in prison there's another thing I mean it was just so bizarre so surreal I've never experienced and I doubt whether I'll ever experience anything like it again meeting this guy who is a serial killer meeting the learning the fact that he had a wife learning the fact that he didn't pregnant hated this woman during his time in prison that they'd have a baby and then going into their conjugal little flat in a prison was just surreal and interviewing her about him and asking her questions about how she would allow a man like this to touch it with the hands of such horrible crimes and the answers she gave just kind of constantly knocked me back and it was just bizarre really was bizarre what is your opinion on conjugal visits I believe conjugal visits should be introduced the British criminal justice system prisoners in this country should be given conjugal visits because wives girlfriends boyfriends are punished as a result of the crime their loved one is committed is it depriving somebody of something I mean I spent 12 years in prison and although sometimes I found a way around the system to have intimacy with another female or physical or something it was tough but it was possible every now and again on a visiting table you weren't embarrassed by hate you know God looking over knowing that you're kind of doing something whether it's just a kiss and a cut or a boob squeeze you know whatever it was they helped you get for another six months but I do believe that we should have conjugal visit I think it makes a difference an interest in me when I are some of these guys in the Brazilian prison or Ukrainian prison whether they would swap their right for a conjugal visit to be in a British system which provides you know better conditions I believe etc rehabilitation etc none of them would they'd rather stay I remember asking to go in the Brazilian prison who had his mattress in his arm we've just about to go and meet his girlfriend and do what he does in the love hotel I asked him that very question he said why he said I'd rather be in these conditions but be able to see my wife once a month or once every two weeks and have an intimate moment with her then go to any other prison in the world if they're not going to give us that so I really believe that conjugal visits makes a difference not just for the wives and families of those that are in prison but it just seems a punishment too far and your next visit by man our maximum security prison in Papua New Guinea on this occasion in Bosnia strip-searched the guard seemed to be really intimidating more so than the other episodes I felt and I wanted to ask what your opinion was that was you know for instance when he welcomed you if you want to call it that he said that if you don't comply he'll get you could've been good and proper you know what it was that the nice intimidating or search that you had it was doing the making of this series yeah I mean it was you know here is a God telling me of people and me if I didn't do what he wanted and I could just imagine other prisoners who he has beaten you know and I had spoken to him about other prisoners who he says he's doing him a good kick in and lots of prisoners in that prison that bommana prison hadn't beaten by the guards during one occasion while we were in that prison I remember a new flux of prisoners coming in as about 15 20 prisoners and the guards it wasn't in the film because he happened when we didn't have cameras there but I was standing there at the time I remember 15 20 prisoners new prisoners coming in of all shapes and sizes and they were all very rundown these look like guys that had been taken off of the streets you know I later learned that they'd spent a number of days in a police cells that they had they lined all these guides guards they learned all these prisoners up by where that guy strip-searched me and about five guys with sticks said to the prisoners the last one to reach the top of the hill which so there's a slow going up into the complex for the prisoners I was the last one to get to the top of the hill we're gonna be and they said on your marks get set go and all the prisoners some of them you know broken legs or injuries which meant they couldn't run and all these prisoners run with pure fear and desperation in their eyes and faces I was shocked by what I was seeing and they ran and the guards were running behind them laughing with these sticks and I just couldn't bear to to witness if what happened when they reached the top was a beating but I'm sure it happened so when I was standing in that space with this guy telling me that if I didn't do what he wanted me to do he would beat me I just kept thinking if I was a real prisoner and this wasn't a film this guy would have probably beaten me already it'll probably slapped me taking my belongings and he probably does that on a daily basis and he admitted - so it was frightening really frightened him I mean as you said the conditions were all for 52 prisoners without bunks and mattresses in just one meter of concrete space per prisoner what is your game plan when walking into a new prison with essentially different rules than what the last that you visited I don't have a game plan when I go in there I kind of assess the situation and try and move myself into into integrating with the prisoners and try and quickly assess what they do how they do what they do as quickly as I possibly can and generally what you find and I found in all the prisons that I visited for the Netflix series is that there is a kingpin or a you know gang Lord leader as their wards in this Beaumont bommana prison in Papua New Guinea and this guy Philip who kind of took me under his arm Benjamin sorry Benjamin took me under his arm straight away and he was an elderly guy didn't look like no he looked like but I would melt in his mouth but he just didn't strike me as somebody who I later learn was a serious gangster on the outside and committed some horrific crimes and been involved in and was still involved in very dangerous things but I tend to find that individual even I gravitate towards them or I'm pointed towards them almost before because they won't let us in otherwise find the kingpin he will guard and protect you and he will make sure that other prisoners kind of play the game while Sir or their film and then make things smooth and there is always prisoners who won't accept that there were always prisoners who would challenge that gang Lord but it was people like Benjamin who made it possible and it's just it it it's interesting to see how you know as the Sun Goes Down and the cell became dark how these prisoners found ways of getting through the next few hours they group had their guitars their side singing they cited this communal thing and on the one hand it was great to see it was lovely to see that these guys found ways of dealing and maybe they roll a joint with the newspaper or whatever to get him through the night of they end up in that space for a very long time but on the other hand it was just it was just desperate constantly desperate engine wasn't either trap your scopes caught a few times yeah yeah we've gone over the fence as did these brothers previous criminals we've been killed why they were on the run I mean the more I learned about him from other prisoners as we went through the week in that prison the more intimidated I felt by him at the beginning and you know like anybody he is a dangerous guy but on the face of it when you're talking to him on a level that I was talking to him inquiring about his life his experience his existence the conditions of prison other prisoners he was very amenable and willing to talk to me and share his knowledge and experience it was a guy that was very very dangerous and I never underestimate how dangerous these individuals are have been and can be so there is something in the story that they make what I do going into these prisons for Netflix possible and later in the series you visit Belize Central Prison it seems a common common occurrence whereby the authorities are fighting a losing battle and that there's not enough resources of finance to improve prison conditions do you feel the determination is really there from officials to make change and do you hope do you have hope that things will improve Belize was a strange one because it was a godly prism and it was you know it felt at times like a cold like the movement to bring prisoners to God as their salvation as I was told on many occasions as driven by Murillo that the governor who run that place or the guy in charge it did bother me it did bother me at times the way they try to indoctrinate prisoners into believing something that maybe they once believed in didn't believe in but using faith I mean there's nothing wrong with using faith as a way of trying to rehabilitate prisoners but I think the prisoners didn't have a choice they it was his way or there was no way and that was fighting him because he's way of doing that was to desensitize these individuals by putting them in this asic unit for months at an end and when they're broken and I know what that's like because I've been in isolation and I know what it's like to be in a Cell completely naked having just experienced a physical beating and then you you know you're only you're looking for something you're over really angry but there's only so long you can be angry and then you become weak and then you are susceptible to anything that anybody's offering you and what they do is offer them salvation through God so I saw it a little bit of a brainwash but on the other hand it was successful and it's argue it's hard to argue against the success that they have it's the only prison in that country Murilo the chief would often tell me that not many prisoners come back so it's hard to argue against a success of rehabilitating prisoners even if it means using the tactics that they use and believes was probably one of that series where they did have the resources to change the lives of prisoners they did provide meaningful work and opportunity for prisoners unlike the other prisons that I've been to so in that particular prison I feel there was hope there was hope that guys could change their lives that the guards although corrupt in many ways interacted with the prisoners in a way I didn't experience in any of the other prisoners you look at the LEAs and the way the guys had these relationship with prisoners as opposed to Brazil where the guards remained ten 15 feet at gunpoint all the time a big contrast and a big difference and that aura was around me all the time I was in these prisons I always felt that difference between the different prisons Brazil very dangerous Ukraine it was like a dark cloud over that prison constantly you know everything was very miserable very dark very suppressed bommana was desperate and Belize was was hopeful if there was a place for the hope it was hopeful murillo the director of the Belize prison does want to make a change I don't believe the directors in some of the other prisoners care one way or another and of all the time you spent visiting the world's roughest prisons which in your opinion is the roughest of them all I can't distinguish between any other prisons I think that all of these prisons were tough and difficult for different reasons the job of the guards was difficult for different reasons and the coping mechanisms that the prisoners used to survive whoever it was from guards from themselves from other prisoners what we're very different there were all tough for very different reasons whether it was because they were highly dangerous because the the threat was constantly there or the confinement like in Belize guys sticking their heads out of a cage door felt like they were being animalized you know in treated like animals and that for me it's not what prisons should be about it should be about changing the mindset and behavior of an individual who's gone down the wrong path and it can happen to anybody and not everybody who's in prison is in there for thieving or for murder or for committing crimes that they deserve to be in prison for so not one of them was tougher than the other they were all very tough for different reasons do you believe there is hope for other innocent prisoners serving time in these foreign countries that one day they might also be free yes I do believe that where there is innocent prisoners in prison there is hope in Belize there were a number of guys I was shocked by the number of stories that I heard from prisoners who said that they've been held on remand or been in prison for four or five six years and they haven't even been tried yet and that the system in Belize is that even after five or six years in prison a huge percentage of those prisoners that do end up getting to call are acquitted there's no compensation or recompense then for for these guys you know they spend all this time on remand awaiting trial they go to trial they're proven not to have committed the crime in their release and a left our own devices there's no sorries or anything so yeah I do believe in all of these prisons that there is hope there has to be doesn't it there has to be hope that you're innocent and you're in prison wherever you are in the world and however bad that criminal justice system is if you yourself don't have the strength and support network around you to prove yourself there will always be someone somewhere who who can provide you with the help that you need there are good people out there helping innocent people in prison in the same way that there is a criminal justice system there to lock up bad people you spend a whole week in each prison did you strike a call of any of the prisoners you met and if so have you been with contacts with the meta Pettit even since I built up a relationship with the prisoners that I spent time with and other prisoners who I interacted with of course I had empathy for their situation in their conditions in particular the the circumstances that led them to commit crime and end up in prison stories of poverty and desperation wanted to feed their families doesn't always wash with me I'm not easily convinced by the story that I couldn't feed my baby so I needed to steal and that's why I was called yeah but you've done that ten times you never mean come on so I'm not easily persuaded but it was there for everybody to say you know I mean I took you into that world I was privileged to go in and show people what really goes on in these places and to hear the stories and for people to judge whether they feel sorry or don't feel sorry for these individuals I've not been in touch with with any of the prisoners inside left I have made inquiries of and one or two prisoners on the basis that viewers have contacted me and they opted in particular about Johnny the black guy who I sang with in the Ukranian prison and what has come of him he seemed to resonate it would quite a lot of people as to you know will he get back home to Cameroon will he tell his mom lots of questions were generated from the time I spent with him and so I've been able to find out that he has now been released he hasn't gone back to Cameroon but there's no way of contacting him to let him know there are other people who have contacted me asking how they can provide resources whether it's books or reading material or pens and papers or other means to help some prisoners so I'd be quite surprised by the audience's reaction internationally from all over the world in particular America and Brazil but I think I I've taken myself into that environment and I've engaged with these prisoners and I've offered them a voice you know for the voices I've given them an opportunity to say who they are why they are where they are and what it's like being what you're like and giving them an opportunity to try and educate people about who they are and what why they were in prison and so for me that's job done I have to move on you know I have to move on to the next project that's not to say that I wouldn't go back if there was a reason to go back or that I didn't have empathy with some of the prisons as much as I had discussed for others so I tried to separate you know my professional skills with journalist presenter going in to meet and talking with these guys and my emotional sympathy and empathy for their predicament you know I think in all of the prisons I went in for the Netflix series I he always thought about myself being in that prison as an innocent prisoner in the way that I was in a British prison and I tried to put myself in their shoes in their situation and think what would I do if I with you that's how I approached it and can you tell the audience is there gonna be a third series and there is yep there is a third series it's already filmed okay so in the first series we filmed for prisons Brazil Ukraine Papua New Guinea and Belize and then there is season 3 which is already been filmed so there's another four episodes that will be released in November or December Netflix will decide they haven't even told me and we are talking about a possible full series that depends on the audience if they for a while for it and we might do a full series but the the third series is in my view as educational as the first two seasons we go to different prisons we meet different prisoners and there are some real bizarre instances in the same way that was in the first series and it's a another fascinating insight and there is a twist in one of the prisons so I can't tell you about but it's very different it's a very very very different experience to the other seven that I did so I've done eight prisons altogether and in the second the third season there is one situation it's very different from from any of the others I'm sure people will find very interesting I can't wait to see it mmm good well thank you very much for it's on record your work on it I'm very honest with you

Channel: Student Pocket Guide

Views: 122,128

Keywords: netflix, inside the worlds toughest prisons, worlds toughest prisons netflix, netflix series, gangster, prison, prison life, fight, riot, riots, prison fight, murder, crime, prison riot, prison gang, serhiy tkach, raphael rowe, journalist, bbc, london, belize, ukraine, brazil prison, brazil gang, papua new guinea, documentary, ben farrin, interview, piers morgan, student pocket guide, the student pocket guide, crips, bloods, crips and bloods, raphael rowe interview, raphael rowe netflix

Id: 4VfpzY-DbuA

Length: 55min 58sec (3358 seconds)

Published: Thu Sep 27 2018