Radio Free Geneva: The Andy Stanley/Leighton Flowers Interview

[Music] constantly here people that are Calvinists tarp on this sovereign cyber traffic they just keep repeating it and they repeat it so much you start to think it's a biblical truth [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] Jesus stands outside the tomb of Lazarus Jesus Lazarus come out and after said I can't undead that's not what he did Lazarus came out Jimmy the Tommy a dead person can respond to the command of Christ [Music] well I can talk up your head like that I know the Hebrew the Greek I've done theology did you can tell on now [Music] do you really believe that it parallels the method of exegesis that we utilize to demonstrate those other things No [Music] some new Calvinists even pastors very openly smoke pipes and cigars just as they drink beer and wine [Music] even Jesus cannot override your unbelief [Music] [Applause] he's worth like that to him he'll it'll sound like that here in the figure blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah even when it would make an effect on a self-righteous legalistic Savior [Music] and you need to realize that he's gone from three determinism now he's speaking of some kind of middle knowledge that God now has - I stand I deny and categorically deny little though they'll beg the question that would demand me to force you to embrace it [Music] now from our underground bunker deep beneath the faculty cafeteria in New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary safe from all those modern Calvinists Dave Hunt fans and those who have read and reread George Bryson's books we are radio podcasting the truth about straight of the same [Music] you know I've never actually listened to my encounter with with brother Tassie and because I don't consider a debate but so hearing that was a a dark reminder of deep he was gonna force me to embrace middle knowledge I think is what that was saying all right I don't know and of course start off with that was it that was a that would say Stephen Anderson quote I have never heard before the back Mott sovereignty of God thing yeah and and you know I hope Leighton you know Layton's we're gonna be talking a lot about light and flowers today cuz we're doing the interview he did with Andy Stanley though we're primarily looking at Andy Stanley but I hope he's proud that he's now in the Radio Free Geneva introduction even though he only got two words in uh no no because as Tim said who of course does the radio for each Geneva introduction air he said that's that's where the debate was it was over at that point yeah I'm using one form of exegesis for my stuff and a different X for everything else yeah yeah so there you go and evidently from what tim says it's it's not difficult for him to move those clips back and forth and move them around and and and stuff so i you know someone for example just asked in channel can i still watch dividing line while standing on a stump though and my son-in-law texted me and said i missed the guy standing on his hands and so i it back yeah but nobody knows who's that who that is anymore that's that's the sad part is that almost all of our our readers are listening readers are listeners now who is arrogant Cantor I don't have a clue he hasn't done anything that I know of for a couple years now and so I mean that that blew up in 2010 yeah we're coming up a nine almost a decade ago now and so thanks Tim bushing for for the new updated a couple of them even he doesn't know who it is don't ask me there was one guy the the guy said jerk or something at the end of I don't know who that is either but so I'm not sure where he dug that one up at but there's our new Radio Free Geneva yeah yeah under that not the faculty cafeteria faculty cafeteria at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary which when you think about it you know there was almost no place to eat when we were at Bruton Parker I mean we were shooting raccoons to to to have something to eat and so now we're in nollans and Wow we've got we've got food all around us so you're probably see us picking out getting bigger and bigger that's that's certainly very spicy but that's certainly what's been happening to me over the holidays unfortunately and I think everybody else as well so there you go yeah Lane just came in channel and he completely missed the the Steve Tassie thing dude oh dude that is that's horrible you have to go back and get that people if anyone if if Jonathan is listening right now who is sending me a message on Twitter asking me about books for the class next week which none of them are $899 I assure you that now is not the time to be asking that question which sort of got are things going on right now anyway all right so most of you are aware of the fact that there was an announcement made a couple weeks ago that latent flowers who I think I am being fair if you look at the sotiria law so t rheology 101 website is primarily focused okay 99% focused on combating an idiosyncratic definition of Calvinism that is all based on the idea that we know the content of God's decree which we don't we don't claim that but he's a former Calvinist so he gets to say and so everything Layton does everything I see him doing is against Calvinism that's just that's just what he does that's that's his thing and he announced he was going to have Andy Stanley on to talk about the impact of Calvinism and pastoral ministry and a lot of us are like okay Andy Stanley is busily unhitching the Old Testament from the church today and many people not just myself but many people have offered pretty strong criticism of just having an orthodox biblio legija but the most important thing is why does anyone think Andy Stanley knows anything about Calvinism at all I've never he's he's a Dallas grad and he's always been anti lordship I've never seen I just could not think of a single reason in the world why you would interview there is just as there's just as much reason to interview Andy Stanley about the impact of coherence based genealogical method in textual criticism as there is on Calvinism I'm sure he's never heard of CB Jim wouldn't have a clue what it is so why in the world would why would I invite a nice tan to talk about something that Andy Stanley has no expertise in well it's pretty obvious why the reason that latent flowers had a nice Tina it's a big name and he had made a donation to to support the webcast as he openly admitted at the beginning of his program so why not hey every voice against Calvinism is our friend right I guess and so there are a couple times when Andy Stanley specifically says but you know but I'm ignorant II this isn't the water I swim in and that's normally either right after or right before he completely straw means the reform position and attacked something that no one actually believes and of course Layton sits there he's always down in the bottom right hand corner and just lets it fly because you know again you're not looking see when you're just against something you don't have to worry about presenting a consistent positive side don't have to worry about you can bring everybody on that has 47 different perspectives against Calvinism because you'll accept 47 different perspectives against Calvin is it doesn't matter if they're consistent with one another that that's the only people have to worry about being consistent in their criticisms are the people that are putting forward a very positive full orbed theology on their own and this traditionalism stuff you can call it many things but positive and fully orbed are not descriptions that you would use of traditionalism as a whole and so a lot of us were like what is this all about once we listen to it the response from everybody that did listen to it that I talked to is the same as like wow that was ugly but what was ugly other than the you know I don't know how a Calvinist can exegete the Gospel of John and again plainly Stanley has never heard never taking the time it doesn't read the books doesn't mean this is just it's your standard this is why we do Radio Free Geneva 95% of the people who will not take the time to either have a clue what they're talking about or if they do they're not gonna take the time to actually accurately represent even though they know what it actually reformed theology actually is but aside from that it then got into some real hardcore pragmatism and again Layton's down there going oh yeah mmmm that's [ __ ] that's great great pragmatism stuff there and we even get Andy Stanley saying stuff like you know we just need to make it as easy as possible for you know just try Jesus just just try Jesus and you know it's it's easy to try Jesus you just try Jesus for a while maybe someday you'll find him to be to be your savior to and this and that this is allegedly what Jesus called people to do and we're all sitting there going March after eight hmm you know take up your cross deny yourself join the Death March seems to add to what Jesus taught and I'm hearing something come lately different here and you're just left wondering how does this happen III don't know so I've taken the time to put together a bunch of little Clips here and I'm just gonna we're gonna listen in and make some comments on all of this a lot of people said oh I don't even how you know how you did that I mean I could only listen to ten minutes of it and of course I've had to listen to all of it multiple times just to put this material together but I think it's important because I've found Andy Stanley's stuff sitting on the kitchen table of solid friends of mine when it's talking about doing small groups and you know practical stuff like that that's how it gets its entree these these multi-campus sites and and stuff like that oh by the way there's a guy named Kent Young he just texted me can't let me tell you something latent flowers was given the opportunity to do a full debate with me I travel all the way to Dallas do the debate with him and the debate was supposed to be on Romans nine and so for him not to give the exegesis in the debate on Romans nine when I did claiming didn't have enough time to and then put out in an e-book later that is a ripoff with my own title I don't need to spend the time doing that he had his opportunity mr. young and he didn't take it okay so take it up with him ask him why he wasted our time and why you wouldn't put his exegesis the real exegesis out there for actual examination like I did I don't have respect for that mr. young I don't know why you do but you can't force me to have it all right thank you very much huh I like being able to that that was a whole lot more than 180 character 200 and whatever it is you've got 240 characters something like that and so I'm I'm thankful to be able to do that and then we go over here and then we go up to person and we go to mute and we go forever boom gone thank you very much don't have to worry about that anymore now getting to the actual done live there there we go alright so before Andy even starts we you ready for this you ready okay and I've got the audio plugged in here we go and and I think when we begin to understand and and you listen to Andy's explanation as to why he said certain things it makes sense but you have to have the the level of graciousness to go and to actually hear him out now in reality a lot of us have been spending a lot of time hearing him out and playing entire portions I mean not just well you know it's people listen to this little clip here look look if you can play three or four sermons where entire points are on the idea that the apostles were unhitching the Old Testament and and it was all about the resurrection and we keep going but the problem is everything they said about who Jesus was was scriptural fulfillment in the scripture they had was the Old Testament and and you look at all the Apostles wrote and it's his constant reference the Testament and this was the Bible the early church and and all sorts of people including al Mohler have criticized Andy Stanley on this point and Andy Stanley's response in here is going to say that al Mohler has a man crush on him yeah that that's how you respond to something like that sure I yeah I get it no it does not actually make sense when you when you do that no matter how hard you try to make it look like it makes sense it doesn't we're adults and sometimes yes there's going to be people sitting over at the children's table who have nothing better to do but to fling food at the people at the adult table and I think it's time to put the people at the children's table in another room too so that the adults can talk yes so this is obviously how Layton thinks about anyone who has been criticizing Andy Stanley there they're flinging food there at the children's table and so now he's gonna have an adult conversation because al Mohler and myself and everybody else has pointed out that the utter unorthodoxy of Andy Stanley's view of the relationship of the Old Covenant New Covenant to the the the Tanakh to the New Testament Scriptures just just children flinging food and if flight and flowers is looking to you know to step up the being respected thing doing that one it's been a very wide-ranging criticism from wide number of people and it's not really the way to do it Layton but anyway that's sort of how that's going to go by the way in the background for the whole time that Andy Stanley is on is this sort of pretty it reminds me I have a I have a screensaver and that screens everything but it's it's a desktop wallpaper animator program window fork magic window 4k or something is what I have and it looks similar to that but it's a little annoying because you know you just see this stuff moving and and it's it's it's like it's you're trying to concentrate on what he's saying and then there's a stuff rather than just so you know that it's there and because some people you know still freaked out about the lava-lamp and then we had the Tesla thing back there people were really freaking out so there you go just be just be aware okay check out this this phraseology molarity isn't the way we were raised and I was raised in a typical Southern Baptist Church and thought normal you know whosoever will type theology and then went off normal whosoever will type theology so that's that's the normal the normal is whosoever will now of course that's a biblical phrase but we've talked about it many many times and there is a particular interpretation traditional interpretation not a biblical interpretation but a traditional interpretation that is attached to that that is that there is no sovereign decree there is no doctrine any meaningful doctrine of election things like that it's not God's choice God just chooses plans not people but that's the normal thing that's that's what's normal for folks and so anything else is I guess abnormal and so there he's comparing his upbringing with Andy Stanley's and some of the parallels between them and that's where this is this is going wasn't the version I had grown up on but they were so defensive they were so antagonistic toward Christianity and I would think why wouldn't everyone want to be a Christian and then you know there was a side of me that would look at their life and lifestyle and think look at you I mean why wouldn't everyone want to be a Christian well again if you have the idea that being a Christian is like finding the best whitening toothpaste ever and if you just use it for three months in a row you will have gloriously white teeth if that's what Christianity is if it's a try me type thing try me and you things will just be better for you then okay I guess I can get that doesn't the Bible very plainly say that the natural man is at enmity with God and and Jesus taught that they've hated me they're gonna hate you and and and the cross is repulsive it's the stink of death to people and there's all this stuff that that just doesn't seem to have a place in in in Stanley's understanding it's it's it's just missing it's in there's a massive imbalance when it comes to having a a biblical anthropology and a recognition of the the animosity that the natural man has toward the claims of Christ so it's it's if I wouldn't ever want to want to be a Christian why I wouldn't ever want to want to have straight teeth and white teeth and and and beautiful hair and and so on and so forth but that's not that's not what the Christian faith is about and so I guess that's probably why I'm confused at that point by the way to the makers of this program I really like notes to do but to the makers of this program you need to make it so that when you click in the notes on a line it takes you to that time index in the video that that is the one thing this is missing I'm having to manually do that and it would just be so much better if I didn't have to do that but it still works and and I like I like it I guess you see him moving all over the place I do that but you know it gives you there's best best we can do because up till now I would have done all this audio it's fun to watch yeah I wouldn't have done the video I would just would have done the audio because there's too many starts and stops but at least we can do it that way now so anyway education it was it was certainly not reform although we studied reformed theology wasn't covenant always studied covenant theology so he's talking about his education at Dallas Theological Seminary and I'm just like okay if if you're gonna make the claim to having studied covenant theology reformed theology then why later on do you you know seem to not know the difference between being a Calvinist and a hyper-calvinist and and all the things that are associated with that and the differences between them and you just you just cram it all together into one mass and and then say and as I don't know how these folks can can possibly do children's ministry and I don't even know how they can possibly execute the Gospel of John or you know do evangelism work they they don't even need to do apologetics he's gonna say that he's gonna say and of course they don't need to do apologetics because you know and I'm just sitting there going uh you you do realize that the biggest names and apologetics over the past well since the Reformation have been reformed you know maybe I mean the deepest thinkers in that area no no of course not I'm sorry with all due respect dzs you're not gonna get a meaningfully balanced presentation on on Calvinism out of DTS and he's and Andy Stanley certainly didn't come away with anything like that by by any stretch of the imagination whatsoever so yeah there there there you go okay now we're starting to get into some of the criticism over and do such a fabulous job doing so when you take the New Testament documents for what they originally were and who they were originally presented to I just think you have to do a lot of them you know exegetical gymnastics to land where some of our friends have landed so that's that's the short version of my story exegetical gymnastics unfortunately what didn't get in what they didn't get into was to substantiate any of this could you give us some examples you know could we walk through John six could we walk through John eight John 10 John 14 John 17 there's a lot we could walk there just in John where the exegetical gymnastics if you want to exegetical gymnastics check out my debate with Layton flowers in Romans nine there is there's exegetical gymnastics it wasn't on my part I managed to get through Romans 9 at least the part we were supposed to be debating in 20 minutes and my opponent decided to debate the subject of the abilities of man and because there was enough time to do Romans 9 so if you want exegetical gymnastics check out Layton flower is attempt to deal with pregnant almonds 8 4 no wow I have that cued up I've got that saved and that's gonna that's gonna take some time because it's one of the most convoluted attempts to escape the plain meaning of the text right in front of you that I think I've ever seen and it also explains some guy that I ran into and Twitter months ago who was trying to tell me well what it means is that God knew thee God knew the Israelites in times past and I said where are you getting this has nothing to do any what he's talking where'd you get this you got from leading flowers or maybe Layton flowers got from him I don't know but it's that's that's late and flowers position is he's talking about the Israelites I how you do not know it is just one of the plainest examples of I've got my goal I'm gonna get there and I'm gonna use whatever means is necessary to get there that's that's that's how that so that's how that works it's so will will be if you want exegetical genetic gymnastics we will be demonstrating that on the part of Layton flowers now it isn't this this next part is really interesting because he's asked about his dad and what his dad thinks about reformed theology and what's happened in the SBC and stuff like that but at the end of the day there was a you know basically celebration in the streets that the Southern Baptist Convention had been saved now to watch it you know to fully embrace conservative theology but to swing as far as it has to a specific theology is a little bit disconcerting and my dad and I talk about this all the time he's 86 so he's you know not going jump back into that fray but it's so disappointing to him as I know it is to some of the men who were part of that transition back in the day because this yeah so he's talking about as a conservative resurgence and there's no question that when you look at the coalition that was put together it was not a primarily reformed coalition and when you look at someone like Paige Patterson I mean the man hates Calvinism just just hates it and detested and so yeah I would I would imagine but what they could not foresee you know for back in the 80s southwestern was was the largest Seminary and they had their anti reformed program going on and and stuff but the fact that matter is reformed theology as biblical theology it is consistent it is based upon the highest view of Scripture it will not long last it will not long last and the seminaries that are abandoning the highest view of Scripture it can't but when you have the highest view of Scripture and you want to see everything that God says and accept everything that God says and have the highest view of theology itself this is where it's gonna lead you and that's why you have seen the shift in the demographics now will that continue I'm not a pragmatist I believe that the state of the church is the direct outplaying of the decree of God as to what God is doing with a particular culture or in the world as a whole now I mean what happens in our culture has great impact on other cultures today and could could what happens in the United States serve as a warning to churches in Africa you know I see a lot if you talking about how the the center of Christianity is moving south well I guess in a sense but when you look at Africa are there good churches in Africa yes are there a tremendous amount of really bat is it returning amount of bad teaching and and churches that call themselves Christians that aren't aren't Christian at all sadly yes are there great people that are trying to do everything they can to honor God in the proclamation the truth in in Africa well yeah I haven't been in a lot of Africa but I've been in South Africa and Zambia and there are people giving their lives to do those things could what happens here end up being an example to those people of what not to allow happen to happen there could they see for example the current degradation of our seminaries by the influx of neo Marxism and the social justice movement that has such unbiblical categories and then avoid it themselves well we can hope so on the negative side we might export that garbage and end up causing problems elsewhere that happens as well what's gonna happen I don't know God's in charge we pray for God's will to be done we only know his prescriptive well we do not know his decree that's one of the big problems that almost everything I've seen almost every person I talked to I take him back to the scriptures I show them where the Scriptures use those two distinctive things you've got God's sovereign to created he accomplishes you've got prescriptive will which is what's given to us that's what we pray in accordance with us we work in accordance with they are constantly trying to make those things clash with one another if you believe all the Bible you won't do that if you have traditions that you believe more than the Bible you will so whenever I encounter somebody who tries to put those two things in conflict they'll never they'll never walk with me through Genesis 50 or Isaiah 10 or where they what they can't they won't because their traditions more important than scripture is that point it's just it's just this is very clear very very clear so yeah those folks I'm sure are somewhat upset about what is going on and it he goes on from there and he says it's gonna be damaging here's here's SM theological what we might call complexity others might call it sophistication but at the time it was simple and to see what's happened I'm not Southern Baptist so in some sense you know I I still care because that's my heritage but I think ultimately it's gonna hurt or it is hurting the Southern Baptist Convention especially those schools as you've talked about have basically made reformed theology the litmus test or a Calvinist in the litmus test for who they will hire in those seminaries now the irony here is how many of us who hasn't if you keep track of what's going on among Southern Baptist there are numerous documents circulating around that are being distributed amongst churches in the south in the southern maps convention on how to smoke out a Calvinist how to make sure you don't hire a Calvinist in your church and and the irony here is I've been on the seeming end from the other perspective I taught for years at a Southern Baptist Seminary and I did a good job for them my students will tell you that I did but it was Paige Patterson that made sure that I would not be able to continue to do that why for one reason because I'm reformed so I've experienced on the other side and it's interesting the seminaries that are declining and the seminaries that are showing themselves to be tremendously weak in being infected by radical forms of the social justice movement neo Marxism are the seminaries that have been the most anti reform it's not that the reformed ones are immune as we thought we were and we're not but started there so yeah okay yeah anyway then there is this little brief little thing with Bobby here in in Layton's comments that I found weird difference in control he's in it I guess therefore it's a pretty being in control of being controlling as we talked about there is a difference between being in control and being controlling I guess what's behind that is the idea that well God is in control but he has chosen not to be controlling this takes us back again to that issue of whether God's will is autonomous and free or whether man's will is because you can't have both and the amazing idea there are many people who want man's will to be autonomous and free they want to say God's will that's autonomous and free but they basically want to make it empty that his will is to just capitulate to his creature and let's see what happens that's why again the only consistent Arminian is an open theist because that would make sense in open theism let's see what happens let's give man complete freedom and then we'll just do the best we can Southern Baptists aren't allowed to do that technically the Southern Baptist faith and message denies that open theism is within the realm of acceptable belief in the SBC and even though latent flowers says he considers it a valid expression of Christian faith I do not he says he does not embrace I don't know why it would make much more sense in his system but if God knows all future events then this idea of control and controlling is a major major problem for his his perspective in his system doesn't really want to go that direction but anyway okay uh did he did eat the DS this is this is where it'd be so much nicer if I could just simply click on something but I'm not complaining I'm just simply saying it's great program that's just the one thing it's missing or maybe I haven't found it this hotel is I've clicked on about everything there is to click on all right my personal experience which is which is very limited is not that at all the the young somewhat when I say radical I should I really I don't mean theologically radical I really mean just the the young pastors who have a lot of energy around us who want this to be on the front burner all the time so notice what he said my experience which is very limited yeah it is I I would not expect that reformed theology would be a big issue in in the Andy Stanley world at all I I would I would imagine that that that is the case but he even says my experience which is very limited let's just there's give me a couple times he's gonna you know basically be honest and saying yeah I don't know a lot about this and that again leads us to then why do this you know why you know you can send your money to whoever you want to send your money to but when they then invite you on to talk about a subject where you have to stare and go I'm ignorant and I don't know there's not something I deal with anyway okay I'm gonna get a crick in my neck we don't move camera pretty soon I'm gonna be in a lot of a lot of hurt here ah did it is 17 for those of you that are you know maybe want to be watching along in 1758 have been a part of it for a long long time but um again I don't run into people who used to go to our church or who used to be pastors or staff members of our churches who said you know what I needed something deeper I need more theology so I've I've gone it I've got a different direction so as long as you know it's right that's this is sort of like what I've said about the non-denominational denomination as long as you convince yourself that people are not leaving because they need the whole counsel of God you're gonna keep losing them it's it's sort of like the the current controversy that Jeff Durbin are having with the NIF B's the new independent independent fundamentalist Baptists they are doing what they're doing because they keep losing people to the likes of us it's not like we're trying to get them to come to apology or something like that because most these people outside the Phoenix Tempe area obviously across the United States and world but every time we put something out on this we just our comment boxes are flooded with people saying man I used to be there man I'm so thankful for ralph de megan ministries for apologia for jeff for james for everybody who you know introduced me to reformed theology got me out of King James only ISM helped me to see what the ADI Ofra are you know just just help them to get a firmer foundation that's why they're they're angry about things and I I just sometimes don't think that people understand why it is that there is an attraction to reformed theology and when I say that I'm not talking about following the crowd if you follow the crowd into reformed theology because you think it's cool cuz you you like what I do or what Jeff does or you you like all the John Piper memes or whatever that is not no one will ever ever ever find me having told people that what you need to do is you need to become reforms you can be cool because it's not cool the only reason to reformed is because you are absolutely convinced that it is the consistent teaching of the word of God and that that's where you're gonna stand that you have to do that by using the exact same method of interpretation that you use to defend the central aspects of the faith in regards to who God is and the Trinity and the work of Christ and the resurrection you apply the same standards to the teaching of the gospel and specifically ratio the relationship between man and God and God's purposes you come to Reformed understanding that's that's what I believe and that's what I've defended and it's not a matter of being cool and there's believe it or not they're different kinds of Calvinists and sometimes there's very jerky Calvinists sometimes there are Calvinists who have the same idea that independent fund most Baptist had that you have to dress in a certain way you look a certain way or act a certain way you know have have a very narrow spectrum of expression some of their Calvinists like that there are all sorts different kinds Calvinists but the ones who will remain Calvinists for twenty twenty-five thirty years their entire life are the ones who become reformed out of conviction not out of convenience and and not out of coolness and so when I see people who I was a Calvinist once I want to I want to find out exactly how they got there because I mean you can be right you can be born into a reformed family there still needs to come a time where you you make that your own and so I've seen people yeah I was raised in Calvinism and I and and you when you talked and they never had the root in themselves they never had that love of the holiness of God and and that you know I've described as that soul shattering experience of realizing God is God and I am NOT and I am the clay in the Potters hands and he has the absolute right to do with me as he wishes and part of that really is the antidote to the flowers Stanly stuff here and and that is they really do have the idea that God has to conform to external standards of goodness when you realize that God is the standard and that there is nothing outside of God that can constrain God that's when that's when you start to get the idea of what real sovereignty means rather than some human you know version of it so just just keeping keeping that in mind I he says hey I've just not run into those types of people well he just may be missing them I'm sure that they are indeed out there and it might be helpful to him to encounter them alright here we eat would require a level of literacy and as you and I know in fact everybody who watches your program knows because they're smart people in the first century you know unless you lived in a city ninety percent of the folks by conservative you know statistics would say that these were illiterate people Peter and Peter and John were illiterate so if if deep is information and deep requires literacy we're not talking about the dynamic we find in the New Testament that this is a weird part of the discussion it really was if you've read John or Peter if you want to call them illiterate what do you call someone who can quote Old Testament scripture and weave it into the narrative even if even if you you know Peter did use an amanuensis okay but Peter knows the Old Testament scripture they were the the the Jewish culture was a culture based upon literacy in the sense that I was just in Israel every single synagogue we visited had Moses seat and right next to Moses seat is where the scrolls were kept it was a central part of of the worship in the synagogue's in Galilee where you have fishermen you have the Torah it's there you have the scrolls and they're handed to Jesus who is a carpenter's son and he can read them and he could read them not because he was God they didn't hand it to him because you seemed to glow you must be God you must be able to read this here no there was a much higher emphasis in Judaism upon the written word than there was in the surrounding cultures and so I this idea was basically to try and say you know this Calvinist stuff isn't really deeper what what we mean when we speak of deeper is consistency across the entire spectrum of Scripture rather than having our traditions which constrict our attention to these little areas and allow us to do things like unhitching the Old Testament from which ends up leaving us with an extremely shallow understanding of the New Testament because you know if any of you saw the the sermon I did at apology a few weeks ago going into Isaiah six seven eight nine ten eleven and bring out the themes that are found there that are developed in the New Testament that's called going deep in in what's called intertextuality the relationship between two different texts in this case between Isaiah and the entirety of the New Testament documents as a whole that when we talk about deep what we're talking about is establishing a on the basis the highest view of Scripture a recognition of what is foundational and what's built upon the foundation and and how all of Christian theology relates so deep for us is not having the the the mailbox thing where you have your doctrine of God here and even your doctrine the Trinities over here and Jesus is here and the resurrection is here and the Bible's over there soteriology is down there and the church is down there if you even have a doctrine of the church and then of course there's a big old section for eschatology that's what we're saying is that's wrong that's bad and trying to say that Paul and John were illiterate when they recognized those things show it in their writings missed me I I was really little bit surprised at what that was that was all about so alright we press forward or we'll never get through all this because we're only at 23 minutes and it's a over hour long thing here so we got to keep pressing that's a recipe for being a Pharisee and so I think we all have to be careful regardless of what theological perspective we come from but my personal experience with the super reformed hyper Calvinistic types okay now I'm actually going to agree with some of what any Stan's gonna say here but have to stop and say he doesn't understand what he's talking about hyper-calvinist to him is a over emphasis upon Calvinism he doesn't seem to understand its historical meaning the vast difference that being a hyper-calvinist has in one's view of evangelism God Church all that kind of stuff he has the surface level insulting view of hyper Calvinism and there's there's Layton just just sitting there you know instead of going well Andy you know we need to differentiate between a historically reformed perspective that would be based in the Westminster Confession of faith Linda BAPS confession of faith that would be represented by the Westminster Divine's or by the framers the 1689 or by something like a Charles Spurgeon or or something like that and in in our modern day you know a scroll and people like that and the historic hyper Calvinists who would look for signs of regeneration before presenting the gospel and and and things like that be nice but it doesn't happen instead you just get this mixed Matt miss mash of stuff which is inaccurate it's it's it's it's this guy again you know mr. mr. straw man is is being put out there because Andy Stanley doesn't really know what he's talking about here and I saw yeah I've got to hold Andy accountable for going on a program that is going to be seen by all sorts of folks including people who are reformed and just saying oh it just seems to me I sort of feel this way when he doesn't appreciate if people do well I really don't I haven't I didn't listen to Eddie Stanley's thing but I I heard somebody say that Andy Stanley's doing this what's the difference and then of course light and flowers for having invited him knowing that doesn't really know this stuff and then offering no correct as if he's in a position now to do so I suppose you know what you do bring this guy on and nobody he messes everything up go well yeah you know that's not gonna it's been there's a level of arrogance there's a level of being judgmental that you know the rest of us aren't quite to where they are and as you are so fair in this suit you're so kind and on your program and you're always quick to say that's not everybody that's not everybody and it's not everybody but in my experience there's there's a bit too much of that he he's right he's right I mean all you gotta do you some reason there was a clip taken from dividing line from a couple of years ago where I was talking about the Calvinist Club there are a lot of really jerky Calvinists and sometimes I'm a jerky Calvinist and we shouldn't be there is there's no there's no ground for that there's no basis for that I mean if you're if you're talking about the doctrines of grace graciousness the doctrines of grace should probably go together and if you're not a hyper then you have to sit back and go I was I was a Christian long before I was a columnist and you know I struggled with things and and there were inconsistencies and in my upbringing you know I I had elements of reformed theology provided to me but I didn't have the vocabulary to put him together and I was in when that really started when I really started having a desire to to know my faith because I was getting involved apologetics I wasn't in a church that was even well the problem was I was in a church that on one Sunday the pastor would preach on Isaiah six I remember this one Sunday the holiness forgotten Isaiah 6 it was fantastic I mean you could have preached that sermon in in almost any Reformed Church in America and you would have gotten amens coming down from the rafters and the next Sunday there's a sermon that isn't even close to being consistent with the foundational elements of the week before and this this is what really you know hit me then we have the Caged stage and that is a real stage where you you just want to put a newly reformed person in a cage so they've hurt themselves or others and it's because they misrepresent things and it's all they want to talk about and you don't want to have them over for Christmas dinner or anything at all and you want to block their email address because they're sending you Arthur W pink quotations all the time and yeah there's that that hopefully everybody grows out of eventually some people don't but but but most of us eventually do but yeah you know what they're there we are not consistent and where there is but but at the same time I should point out that to someone who has a lower than appropriate view of Scripture someone whose theology is based upon the highest view of Scripture will seem to them to be arrogant and unkind so I've had people when I just simply taken the scriptures and press the need for consistency in what you're seeing in John and what you see in Paul they interpret that as arrogance on my part when it's actually flowing out of their own less than fully formed understanding of the consistency of Scripture and they don't even believe in it so I'm not going to say that there is not elements of truth in this I will say that I certainly see a tremendous amount in the same context of arrogance dismissiveness and nastiness amongst people who oppose reformed theology who likewise think that they've gotten it who likewise think that that it's cool to Mock the sovereignty of God by saying well you're a predestined one way or the other ha ha something that I really think they need to think about if they ever stand before God to answer for all that but it goes both directions unfortunately and I also think that the fact that so much this conversation takes place in social media in a written forum exacerbates all of this at least what we're doing right now is you're hearing them out and I'm speaking my critique rather than typing it for some reason they're there I find that there is a difference in the temperature level in that context you know maybe I'm wrong but anyway I think there was some more some more to this let me see and as you know because I've read your story and heard your story and you and I both know some other high profile leaders who have come out of Calvinism they are quick to say as you've acknowledged that people in that world who's sort of protect themselves in that bubble when they come out they acknowledge that there was a level of spiritual arrogance that they're embarrassed about you know on the other side so again I don't want to paint with too broad of a stroke now if you're if you're depending on supposed converts so far I have yet to find a convert story that was overly convincing to me because when I listen to quote-unquote former Calvinists look I'll be impressed by former Calvinists that actually accurately represents the Calvinism he allegedly has abandoned but I don't find that I find people who had twisted versions partial versions all sorts of stuff like that and what they've ended up getting into is normally not overly good either I just I just have not I don't know of anyone when I hear someone say even Michael Brown even my dear brother Michael Brown I've criticized him many times because he says well when I was a Calvinist and then it's like well then you should realise that this isn't what Calvinism says here this wasn't what Calvinism says there and we've we've had to have those conversations and so I when he says you know they're all they all talk about that bubble and stuff like that well I suppose there are people in a bubble but Andy given how little you actually know about reformed theology that you're criticizing don't you think you're in a bubble I mean you're gonna talk about al Mohler having a man crush on you that bubbly as it gets if bubbly is a proper term to use here but yeah so let me see here trying to get this to scroll over here oh okay it's more of the the same for a little while and let's pick up about here biblical humility feeling special really special because you were picked arbitrarily out of a crowd of sinners is not what God means by humility but that's that it's a it's a feeling of special like you feel special you feel like wow God pick me and I don't even deserve it yeah again we're all left going Layton you just don't know what you talking about when you try to pretend I was a Calvinist that I somehow feel special special in what way the only the only special that I can understand and when you consider that I was completely undeserving of any of God's grace and mercy toward me is special in not receiving the punishment due to me not special in being better than someone else the whole point of they were talking about how we will say that Calvinism when it's properly understood if you read for example the practical implications of Calvinism by Albert Martin what he will emphasize there is that and Spurgeon said the same thing everybody who's written on this subject Warfield it doesn't matter Hodge whatever they all said the same thing and that is that if you really understand reformed theology it will create a humility because there wasn't anything in me that attracted the graciousness mercy and love of God there were everything in me was repulsive to all of those things grace is not unmerited favor it's demerit in favor I deserved what I don't get and what I get I did not deserve and that means that that's the case for every single one of the elect that there's nothing in me it's not it has nothing to about I was picked versus someone else see this is this is again Layton flowers has a completely man center view of Calvinism do I have never seen evidence that Layton flowers can escape from his man centeredness his theology is man centered and his representation of Calvinism is man's own that's why it's a straw man and that we've said this over and over and over again if you won't hear it one can't hear it whatever I don't know but the point is that this is a good illustration of exactly that that Wallace Calvin I've been picked no it's that they're everything in me was against God picking me and yet in his purpose he has been merciful to me and it had nothing to do with me he had nothing to do with my cooperation it was before I can ever came into existence he fully knew all the things that I would do even as a Christian to to spit upon His grace and yet despite all of that he chose me it doesn't make me in any way shape or form better than anybody else it there it just does its not there so you know when you hear this kind of stuff it's like well okay we continue on 2606 for those of you who are actually making notes for the Calvinists it's this it's the central theme of the gospel it's the it's God has chosen you and you you need to know that God has chosen you and well you hope God has chosen you I mean I know this is a bit extreme but it becomes a little bit more menescal okay now notice that he is going to say this is a bit extreme so he knows that this is balderdash it's it's absurdity but he's gonna go in there anyway um Mormon esque he's gonna say atheist desk here in a second I just wanted you to catch this that I I don't know I guess we should listen to the whole thing so you can what do you say theme of the gospel it's the it's God has chosen you and you you need to know that God has chosen you and well you hope God has chosen you I mean I know this is a bit extreme but it becomes a little bit more Man esque a little bit and it becomes a little bit a theist esque I mean practically speaking and you know shave off the rough edges of this statement but shave off the rough edges of this statement see this is this is how Andy Stanley takes shots but defends himself because he knows that that any reform person worth their salt is going to not only be offended by this but going to blow this statement away because it's grossly inaccurate but it didn't stop him he's still gonna do it practically speaking I feel like that hyper-calvinism is a no hyper-calvinism hyper-calvinism does he know what hyper-calvinism is no he does not he does not have any functional understanding of hyper-calvinism I mean this is really frustrating uh it really is it like atheism with eternity thrown in practically speaking not hyper-calvinism is a little bite atheism with eternity thrown in I certainly get clear evidence that there's been some serious reflection and study behind this theologically but practically speaking it's on everything is determined um it's just that if you're an atheist everything is determined and when you breathe your last breath it's over for hyper-calvinist or you know hyper reform or the determinist everything is determined but you know eternity gets thrown in I I don't know no um just on a real real basic level here the difference between a naturalistic universe where nothing is determined because if you're talking about atheism when they talk about determinism with an atheism that all they're talking about is that you are the sum total of your genetics what you're gonna do with that how you're gonna behave is not determined by the universe because there is no universe to do it so you have could to completely philosophically Phila logically theologically different uses of determinism being crammed together into one that's the first utter inanity in this statement the reformed understanding of determinism that is that God has a sovereign decree Ephesians 1:11 Psalm 135 six Daniel chapter four we could go on and on on that God is accomplishing his purposes in his own creation means that God is so powerful that he can create time make time meaningful and yet accomplished his self glorification in the redemption with people through Jesus Christ um that is not what a theism is talking about and I don't know what any of this has to do with Mormonism which doesn't have anything to do with either one of the two types of determinisms I was just mentioning because I can guarantee you Andy Stanley doesn't know diddly about Mormonism either that's obvious that's painfully obvious but he's gonna throw it out there anyways because hey why not in terms of practicality how there's that much difference and it seems like a very difficult worldview to live out but somehow they managed it so yeah and that's but that's definitely been one of my argument seems like a very difficult worldview to live out well I don't know what you're talking about because didn't have a thing to do with a reformed worldview because you don't understand it but I could understand why you would think that way because you clearly haven't taken any time to try to understand it and light and flowers ain't gonna help you do it you've come to the wrong place if if you want to get any deeper in your si reformed theology mmm LF is not the place to go is that it's not a tenable way of living life and it is how do you raise your kids that way I mean you were there it is not a tenable way to live life hmm so from from Agustin onward everyone who's held these views it's just not a tenable way to live life well why not well wewe know what latent flowers are trying to say latent demands that we forget just just abandon the distinction between God's decree and is prescriptive will he conflates the two which simply will not repent of making that error and demands that we all do the same thing over and over and over again he demands that we live on the basis of allegedly having knowledge of what God's decree is and then says we can't live life based upon that well yeah we could not live life based upon the idea that we as creatures have an absolute knowledge of God's sovereign decree you're exactly right but that's not we believe and you know it so stop saying it is I know it's the only argument you got so you're gonna stick with it I know that no reason to go back over it but doesn't keep us from pointing out that your arguments are made of paper and they don't they don't survive anything when you were Calvinists right yeah you just how do you raise your kids hmm the way God told you to how do you raise yours I mean how do you raise your kids in a world where assuming you're not open theists and assuming you're not a mole inist of some kind god knows what your kids are gonna do one way or the other and he knows where they could be saved one way or the other but you're still gonna pray for him right I mean God do you not believe that God knows with absolute certainty what's gonna happen everyone your children and there's nothing you can do about it there's nothing you can do about it he's already putting out a 100 cent effort so why are you praying for your kids I pray for my kids not to try to convince God to be better but to change me okay I know that's not why you do it but I'm just explaining how it's very tenable to follow the prescriptive will of God to instruct your children in the ways of the Lord I don't have to know their hearts and I don't have to be in control of that I am following God's prescriptive will he will use my obedience to his honor and glory as he sees fit and sometimes you you see wonderful beautiful results down the road which are exactly what we prayed for sometimes you don't there are the children of David who never brought grief to his heart and then you got Absalom and that's just the reality and you have examples of this over and over and over again in Scripture I am called to do what calls me to do and gives me the knowledge and guidance to be able to do I can't change hearts now obviously I would have some serious questions as to exactly what Andy Stanley's doctor of original sin is and how central it is and how real it is I could be wrong didn't it didn't address it in this but yeah how do you raise your children see the assumption the assumptions that he's making as to the nature of reformed theology are extremely surface level and show no primary source study on his part at all at all okay well we're actually right next to the next one so let's press on I'm asking honestly this is one of my questions for use do you allow your child to pray a prayer of repentance and salvation and then you just hope it took and then when they repay it now not check this out check this out this is this is really important because I forget who it was that told me this was it it was someone in the SBC might be the troublemaker in Texas might have been Josh Pisces a troublemaker in Georgia I know a lot of troublemakers um but someone told me that the average Southern Baptist gets baptized 2.7 times once in childhood once at a crisis point in teenagers and then many as a young adult figuring all the rest of them were just they're too young to point and ends up being 2.7 times you're gonna hear that exact breakdown here I think it's an exact breakdown Andy Stanley recognizes this very same phenomenon but he's using it as an argument against us so when he says you know how do you do you allow them to make a profession of faith you call your children to belief in Christ and you also recognize that a seven-year-old child wants to do what mommy and daddy want them to do I made an extremely early profession of faith in Christ and I believe it was real because as I look at my life there were evidences of that and understanding as well but I also recognize that there are literally hundreds of thousands let's just use the United States hundreds of thousands of people in United States who made a profession of faith as a child who are living a life today that demonstrates it was not real now if you're an anti lordship person like Andy Stanley got your ticket punched going to heaven one way or the other I suppose but from a biblical perspective there is wisdom in continuing to encourage that child but also to recognize the teen years are coming the hormones are coming and there have been a few things that are more indicative and explanatory and exposing of where somebody really is then when those teen years hit and the hormones hit and if you're involved in pastoral ministry and you don't know this you need to because it's a reality and it's a heartbreak and all I just you know he was just so into church you know when he was nine now he's 14 that wants nothing to do with it well golly really hmm it's all my fault no maybe not no maybe not how does denying God's sovereignty and salvation in any way change any of this again it's it there's a there's clearly a presuppositional aspect here functioning in Andy Stanley's mind that is in error as to what reformed theology is all about if you can't tell a difference betwee being reformed and a hyper-calvinist whatever else in your gonna you're gonna have these you're gonna have these problems and it is how do you raise your kids that way I mean you were a parent when you were Calvinist right yeah yeah yeah you just I mean I'm asking honestly this is one of my questions for you is do you allow your child to pray a prayer of repentance and salvation and then you just there's one hope it took and then when they reap ray it at 12 you hope that it took then they go to camp and they repay it again are you as a parent and then when your child 17 and decides he or she is gonna run off and have abandoned faith do you think oh no I've no problems because they prayed that prayer when they're 8 or do you when what does a what do parents do when their children walk away from faith through they shrug and say they want to be elected thing I have three other kids or what what's the know see how does he ask these questions I mean these are questions for all parents and how is that only relevant to a reformed person I mean I mean he's evidently thinking that we somehow again have access to the decree of God therefore we know what's in the hearts of men we don't know any of those things you call your children to repentance at every point in their life as we are all called repentance which unfortunately is not a part of what he was taught in an anti lordship repentance is an optional thing type of a type of context right which I hope he's gotten away from I I don't know you know maybe some people who know Northpoint better than I do might explain whether the term repentance is a regularly used term the vocabulary from the preaching in the pulpit I don't know but it seems to me that this is the the at least you saw there he recognizes these points in time in and it's their experience of of this stuff then it's interesting latent jumps in for me personally it was there was probably a cognitive disconnect there there wasn't it has to be as a parent yeah but but I mean to be to be fair I mean Piper does talk about in one of his broadcast are one of his books he talks about his children and even saying you know if guide for whatever reason and his eternal purposes chose not to elect one of my children then I then I must trust him and so okay let me just stop and let me just ask what is wrong with that biblically biblically I mean are you saying that God owes something to to every child that's born i I don't believe that grace cannot be owed to anybody there there is always been elected that's what that's what Romans 9 is about within within remember the twins and stuff yeah we tried to talk about that and you went off on other things in it what is wrong with it biblically speaking are you actually going to defend the idea that God has to save all the children of believers so Absalom every day vyd offspring if you can use that as an illustration you know you know there's there's never gonna get it gonna be a situation as long as your your parents are Christians your you've you've got your ticket punched is that worse where is that Todd again I've seen that in some extreme forms of of even some covenant theology there's some there's some colonists so actually sort of have that idea be honestly but I good luck defending that from anything I can find in Scripture I have absolutely no idea where you would get anything but what does this have to do with you because in your situation God's already doing everything he can it's up to the kid why pray for them God's good God's are you thinking to make God better you think I convinced him do something more he's already putting out a 100% effort to save that child there's nothing to be added to it so why should you worry about it right God's already doing everything you can but it's up to the kid so you look into that little child's higher and go I'm so glad that it's actually up to you and not up to God because I can trust you more than God yeah that's what you're saying that's what you're saying is there a reason are we having YouTube problems mister no it's great I just I was this has got me Jenna my guys come over and yeah yeah I'm oh that should not do that I'm just reminded of when we were at North Phoenix and how many times it was that burden was on us oh yeah that burden was on the minister's that burden was on all the rest of the congregation you weren't praying hard enough you're not witnessing hard enough you need to convince these people to come in to come to the Lord and you know it was like in some case there's like Emily it really was it was like hey you know you gotta you gotta sell the plan you got to convince them of the plan man and and and if you're if they're not getting it you need to make sure they get it what was that discipleship program that we used for a long time remember that you're thinking the EE no no no this would have been before that no no this was something you gave to people after they came forward and I remember it looked like it was a whole booklet thing is pretty slick I don't remember what it was now but yeah you had you had to do that you had to do the whole the whole whole deal the whole shtick and it was but it was not was definitely all I mean there is a sense in which Calvinists have to come to that realization that maybe one of my babies is loved by me more than God right did you catch that loved by me more than God so I hope I hope the reformed folks in the audience are catching the errors the misrepresentations from from Layton cuz he's so good at switching terms and stuff because when you talk about the love of God what we're talking about is redemptive love that is gracious in the sense that grace is due merited so love of God that transcends the just and this is this is this is why amongst quote-unquote traditionalists original sin is just a even if it's confessed it is so watered down and so put off to the side that the idea that your offspring could actually be offensive before God no no no no no so there is there must be by biblical demand a definition a difference between any category of God's love toward a human being and my love towards another human being because I'm not their judge i with them whether my children grandchildren parents cousins anything else were both rightly under the judgment of the law and God is not God is the judge and so you see it's so disingenuous to disassociate God's holiness and justice from discussion of his love mercy and grace but that's what happens when you start with man and try to reason up to God that's why man centeredness will never ever be able to approach a even semi meaningful biblical theology can't do it just can't do it though that's exactly what we're what we're seeing here I'll make a bet now listen to this this is the this actually got my daughter upset I'll bet the male Calvinists embraced that in the female Calvinists never ever get their the maternal instinct would have a very difficult time reconciling the reality of being a mom with that theology just just a hunch yeah well the statistics do show that the resurging is very male-dominated right course it is very young male white dominated and I'm not trying to be racist in that comment I just it just happens to be the studies are showing that that most of the people in the young Restless reform movement right now our younger white males that's not obviously across the board obviously there's exceptions to that but that is predominantly what you're saying and even Piper addresses that surprising that's surprising practically enough for him what was the surprise in the first century when it came to the people who followed Jesus it was the number of okay then he talked about women in nearly church as if that's somehow relevant to that but then they sort of got back to this idea here right about here women I think that's something I just think that's something we should pay attention to it going back to your practice also logically speaking here's another issue is that if Calvinism is true then God has ordained for more men to accept Calvinism than women in other words God for some reason has sovereignty and decreed and has determined for men to get it and for women to reject it for now I I somehow missed Layton's source for the male-female number of people who believe these things I I've read about so many godly women you know I think of Sarah Edwards and Spurgeon's wife isn't it much more probable in light of the fact that there is this biblical teaching about the nature of the eldership and pastors and preachers and teachers that we simply know more about the men because they wrote the books and did the preaching than the women who raised the children yeah I think that's probably a much better thing my daughter felt that this was the oppression of the patriarchy against female Calvinists and that therefore latent flowers is the patriarchy and but that really doesn't mean a whole lot okay here here comes the al Mohler quote I've been talking about for a while whatever reason Wow well here's I have a quote I didn't know if this would be appropriate but I'll bring it up now I'm you mentioned al Mohler earlier al I think he must have a man crush on me I don't know he can't quit talking about me I'm not sure I've only met him once and I would love to talk to him we did have one quick phone call about seven years ago anyway he I am I was at an ER Elsie calm man man-crush I I know what say something like that I think what he's saying is that dr. mole has taken the time on the briefing and I think in articles to sound a warning against Stanley's clearly destructive views on the relationship of the old and new Testament Scriptures and I just saying saying as a man-crush is not is not a response those things you know and I I would imagine if Andy Stanley wanted to talk with al Mohler and made a request he probably would be willing to do that I mean I'm not making that offer for dr. Mohler by the way I'm just simply just simply saying that but there's something very odd about what was just said there then he talked a little bit there for a while about a quote that al Mohler gave in an ER Elsi thing about how the majority of people are baptized and said the Baptist churches are our offspring not new people and there is there is a truth in that statement that's not a disputable thing I don't think one way or the other doesn't have a whole lot to do with with what we're talking about but but anyways okay let's then we've got a problem here with something that Layton flowers said biologic I mean it's like well anytime anytime a Calvinists can is consistent in his Calvinism and he brings Crick okay now here is this this this this week let me back to something this needs to be addressed because this is a constant canard on and flowers part all of us need to know exactly why it is so we can just simply shut him down when he does because it's just it's it's just just picture this as Layton says these words because that's that's that's what we're getting what he's talking about is that al Mohler was criticizing a problem in the something about convention in regards to how evangelism was being done and things like that and then he's saying how can how can Calvinists criticize anything because they believe God's decreed everything this is behind Layton flowers all the time saying well your Creed to do that one word I was decreed not to believe this stuff bla bla bla bla what's that what's the problem here we do not know the content of the divine decree that is gods and gods alone and by the way I would just simply mention that if you actually have the slightest bit of meaningful respect for theological topics what God determines to do should be something that you show tremendous respect toward as a creature and when you can mock it I I fear for you it's just think for a moment what if you're wrong and you stand before God someday and he says and he asks of you the reason for your mockery of his divine decree I don't want to be held accountable for something like that um no I don't want to go there we have been given a revelation from God that tells us what is good and what is evil and we are to pray that God's will be done oh but it will be done you even say that yes but God has commanded us to pray that it be done because it changes us and glorifies him and you don't have the right to tell him otherwise sit down creature you live for maybe 80 years and then you die you are stupid in comparison to God shut up and listen to what he says we all need to do that he has told us this is good this is evil he puts his spirit within our hearts and we are to pray against that which is evil and for that which is good and that's what we are to long for and that's what we are to work for and we are to identify that which is good and promote it and say this is a good thing this is a God glorifying thing and God uses us as a means of that encouraging others I have been so encouraged by others and we give an example Zachary Conover has been assigned as my deacon at apology of poor man I asked Jeff what he had against him but anything he didn't say but Christmas Eve across my feed comes a spoken word didn't even know he did spoken word a spoken word thing he did on Christmas and abortion it was incredible I posted it on Facebook you want to go find it just look at Sakura Conover and probably Christmas spoken word abortion it'll come up somewhere was really great was really good and so there was someone doing something that encouraged me it it made me think about how the Christmas story the Christmas history the realities not just a story sometimes Christmas story sounds like a Dickens thing but the reality of the Christmas story it's such a tremendous condemnation of abortion it was a tremendous combination of abortion back then and now knowing what we know it's so much more so now so by doing that positive thing God used that means to encourage me that I can then use that to encourage others God decrees the ends and the means ends and the means and so we can decry the evil of abortion we can proclaim the goodness of life because God has revealed that these are good things and these are evil things and there is no excuse and there is no basis for some creature who breathes for a little while on earth to stand back go well hey you know if God's in control evolve it doesn't really matter it's all decreed anyways that makes a mockery of the Incarnation Christmas Story the whole life of Christ and pretty much the entirety of the Bible and if you keep doing it your hearts can get hard stop it stop it you're just a creature you don't have the right to do any of that well you're saying that God has has decreed yeah because he's revealed that he's revealed that graciously I accept it and I stop there because I'm not gonna tell you what that decree is now I can look in the past and see how its unfolded that doesn't mean I can look into the future God can because he has his decree so actually I just responded to all that before he actually said it but here is him saying it posed to those who are not biologic I mean it's like well anytime anytime a Calvinists can is consistent in his Calvinism and he brings critique of what's happening in the world there's a cognitive disconnect there because ultimately like if a so 9/11 happened okay so 9/11 happened according to God's purposes in his will he brought it to pass for his glory he planned it exactly if Calvinism is true okay so I'm and again let me let me read from and so if Calvinism isn't true then God created the universe we're 911s happen for no reason but he knows they're going to happen but he can't stop him and you say let's worship that God right is that what you're saying Andy Stanley Layton flowers God maybe maybe any Stanley's not the BAPS he doesn't have to believe that maybe he's an open theist maybe he doesn't believe God knew maybe it kind of by surprise you you want to worship a God Oh Oh didn't see that coming oh man Oh all these Christians has just died than all these non-christians now they're going to hell me that was I was planning trying to say something that you want that that's your alternative really well you know God just gives us his free will and so you know we you know yeah he knew it was gonna happen but it doesn't have any purpose it's just you know but but that free will is so important worship Him for having given us free will that's basically what turns out to be the basis for worshiping God is that he's the origin of free will really I remember that all through the Psalter that's why we worship God no it's nowhere in the Bible and you know it you know it stunning absolutely stunning Westminster or the London Baptist confession here it says God hath decreed in himself from all eternity by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will freely and unchangeably all things whatsoever come pass yet he hath not decreed he goes on to say anything because he foresaw it as future in other words he's not foreseeing it and permitting it that's not what they mean right today I mean he he has brought it to pass as Piper says in his in his book that he by mountain mark Tolbert in other words this is something God has planned and so yes God has a sovereign decree yes like and that is exactly right that's why that's the very foundation and ground of purpose reason value there's value in what we're doing there is value in fighting evil but if God decreed for a purpose therefore there is value what if you fight evil and the evil happens anyways and do you see the problem by the way I just haven't look over and I do want to pass this along Kim Roberts says I'm a female Calvinists please let flowers and Stanley know that I never received my survey so and summer didn't either in fact I don't know of anyone I'd apology they got did you anybody get a servant I I didn't you know it may even send out in will those things that looks like junk mail and I just throw junk mail out so maybe that's that's what happened but yeah anyway yeah but Smerch that thing if you say that was a horrible bad thing then you've just called God's plan horrible and bad bah low knees stop it Layton stop it you can't find and you know this sir you cannot find a single meaningful reformed writer not a single mother Westminster framers that are single one alone is magic session face framers that would have even they every single one of you them would look at you and laugh in your face sir and you know it you know it don't tell me you don't know it because they operate on the biblical pattern of the recognition of the difference between between God's decree and his prescriptive will you know that stop with this stuff this is you Layton right here this is you this is all you do it's all you've got stop it just stop it that's all you're doing man why got little B things on them there they probably burn first but anyway to stop it you are not besmirching God's plan you are doing what God calls his people to do to be the means by which he ministers did you know some enlightened my book on grieving my book on grieving to do it's one the small without see it's like they were passing this out by the curtain on September 13th at Ground Zero I'm very happy about that I think that's wonderful but you see we Christians where he means of grace he used our seeking to do what is right to reach out in mercy and grace in as representatives of God but he decreed it yes he did which means it has purpose and value and meaning I don't know how you can read Isaiah 10 I don't know how you do it I'd like to transport you back latent flowers and have you stand there in the ruins of the cities destroyed by the Assyrians in Israel and make your man-centered arguments to them and Isaiah will walk up and smack you in the face that's what I'll do just say you don't get it do you you don't get it God brought the Assyrians here this is a fulfillment of Deuteronomy 28 and 29 this is God's justice taking place here and yet he knows the hearts of these Assyrians and he's gonna judge the hearts of these Assyrians because that's the basis he judges on he hasn't base his judgment as if we somehow can thwart his decree he judged the Assyrians on the intentions of their hearts even though they were doing they did he describes him as the axe being wielded they they're the arm that's God's arm they're the axe then he judges them that's not fair oh yes it is if you don't have a man second system if you have a theistic system a Trinitarian Christian theistic system then it's perfectly just I can understand from your perspective yeah but you don't have a consistent Christian system that's why that's why you've just besmirched what you think God did for his own self glorification and there must be a cognitive disconnect for for Piper Piper and sprawl and previously so obviously he's gone on to be the Lord and Moeller and others to besmirched or to or to call out negative things that they see happening in the convention that they believe God unchangeably ordain for his own self glorification it's like are you do you see how logically this just does not play itself out it does not work for you to be able to critique something that you believe God brought to pass for his own self glorification now do you see the utter incoherence of the latent flowers critique hopefully we've pointed us out go to the Scriptures transport this man back to acts 4 isaiah 10 Genesis 50 Genesis 22 almost any place and sit him down and go okay try repeating that argument you just made and it falls flat on its face flat on its face it's all he's got it's all he's got look at this website it's all just repeats it over and over again but it's different dress on it you know spray paints the spray paints of different colors same thing same thing okay now listen to what Andy Stanley says here well they toss it into the bucket of mystery which did I just toss it into the bucket of mystery no I didn't I addressed it very directly tonight yeah to that point I wrote and again I now listen listen very carefully here this is this isn't a world I spend a lot of time in so feel free to correct me publicly I'm that's what we're doing that's what we're doing you said feel free so we're feeling free and we are publicly correcting you you know this is your world I just a dance around the periphery but and some of the notes I took is I thought about our conversation I wrote that essentially and I read your book and anyway that if God causes or is behind or sovereignly Institute's all evil it really blurs in fact this takes me back to the parallel between the new Calvinist or hyper Calvinism and atheism this blurs the distinction between good and evil because anything that glorifies or reflects well on God has to be good so when evil reflects good on God that evil becomes good I just don't know how again I don't know how to live with that dichotomy I don't know how to live in that world where it becomes evil and evil becomes good and we're back to the question of can you have a basis for morality apart from God you see why it might be important to to maybe possibly pick up a pick up a book by RC sprawl you know it's just such a nice guy you know and it's it's not like we've kept the answers to theodicy secret but what's plainly evident is that Andy Stanley has not taken the time to do that and again he didn't have to do this what this thing he said publicly correct me OK that's we're doing so if Ephesians 1/6 is true what 1 6 to 11 God works all things after councils will and that it's all good result in the praise of his glorious grace then that makes all evil good and and blurs the distinction between the two now what is required for that mess of a critique to make any sense again the fundamental distinction between the decree and our experience in time of the prescriptive will of God are doing which tells us what good and evil is and hence cannot allow there to be a blurring of these things and in fact allows us to find good even in the midst of evil in faithfulness to God in seeing the pastor's in China well if we're put in prison we'll start a prison ministry you ever think about doing it anyways okay it's evil for the Chinese government to do what they're doing and they need to be told that they will be judged for that evil and they are telling them that but you're so intent upon making God into your image that you cannot conceive of a God who could use the persecution of the Chinese government as a means to his own self glorification how many of us have been encouraged in our own lives by the faithfulness the Chinese pastors is they're being persecuted right now how many of us have been encouraged down to the years that the persecuted Church has always been a special focus of mine I've mentioned it many times on this program the Christians who are persecuted under Islam today is it evil for Muslim governments to persecute Christians yes it is will they be judged for that yes they will has God used that to his own glorification yes he has he has used it in the sanctifying of his people he has used that in ridding those who are persecuted and those who are observing this a love for the things of this world why is your God so stinkin small why is your God just basically a big man if so if you don't if you if you can't embrace the God this as big as a God the Bible that means all good is evil and evil is good somehow blurred distinction that's stunning to me and it's absurd it's just absurd I yeah yeah as someone someone just said in channel I just have to look over the safest place to be is the center of God's will Betsie 10 boom while in Robins Brook concentration camp exactly exactly you ever watched the hiding place yeah anyway and you know Christians say you can't have a basis for morality apart from God the Calvinists say that's right you can't have a basis for morality apart from God but when you look at the basis of morality good becomes evil and evil becomes good because God's behind it all why why because God is behind it all you are assuming that because his decree determines the very fabric of time that the decree is the same in intention and purpose for evil acts as well as good acts right that's what you're assuming so you can't tell any difference biblically between the intentions and actions of herod pontius pilate the Jews and the Romans in the crucifixion of Jesus and God's intention in bringing about the redemption of God's people through the cross you can't tell a difference you really can't seriously I'm sorry I shouldn't get upset about these things but this is childish this is first grade stuff people this is absurdity being promoted by a major pastor of a major Church I I don't you know it's a do not even know what to say and we're not halfway through thankfully the last part isn't doesn't take as long I as it sits right now I don't see how we get through all this I really don't but I've been I've been drinking the diet root beer and for many people that's probably a good thing that there is a limit on how long programs can go and God decreed that there would be a limit these programs can go yeah okay and this is a frustrating section this is really a frustrating section but it does it does get faster because there's no reason to be covering some of the stuff that comes on later that ends up not having anything to do with this just that may be true if it's true it certainly isn't there's not the scripture does not bear witness to that and either neither does human logic but I realized that my human logic is so skewed that I can't trust that either back to atheism I mean we just sort of end up back with it you know that same worldview well and that's where I think so by accepting God's ability to actually have differing intentions and purposes and to work all things together God works all things together for the good of then love God then the college purpose that's the theology of rejecting that's the theology of rejecting you don't believe that you just said that takes you back to atheism that's absurd that's what certain i/y say these things it's it's really hard to understand but it it reveals a lot of Lewis quote where he talks about if our good is God's bad and our bad is his good then we can say we worship we know not what in other words if you can't have some measure on which to base goodness and of course the scripture is or our go-to to be able to look at God in his revelation and what is good and what is evil and therefore if God presents good as Christ who sacrifices himself for his enemies it doesn't sacrifice his enemies for himself but sacrifices himself for his enemies then we can we can say okay that's a measure of goodness someone who who doesn't know that advice yeah it doesn't sacrifice the mass of humanity ie the reprobates for the sake of his own self glorification but instead offers the means by which anyone and everyone can be saved we can we can I think state dogmatically in a sense of saying this is what's good good is self sacrificial love good is unconditional love good is providing for the needs of others even now dude let's let's make application okay once again let's make application so what he's saying is God would not be good if he is glorified in the judgment of sinners that would make God bad why because we determine what good is by what Jesus did and Jesus gave himself to try to save all sinners though God knew that he was going to fail in that and so God is good because he made the universe in such a way that despite his self giving a large number of people don't know how many are going to suffer needless needlessly with no purpose and no redemptive value and end up under puncture do you see why this eventually leads to either universalism or a denial the existence of hell and historically has in our minyan circles yeah it's obvious because it makes no sense you apply these critiques to their own position and it collapses into the house of cards that it really is and it's all again based upon bring an externalized standard of goodness upon God and it's always a narrow thing whereas God is glorified by so many things in Scripture there's always a narrow definition what because they're starting from man and trying to move up to God it can't happen the God of the Bible is too big for these folks to do that and the Scriptures are too big that's why they have to try to explain away so many of the text of Scripture that hey look a lot of people out there in evangelical church find to be very problematic how is God glorified in the destruction of the amorite for example I mean really makes me feel uncomfortable and I'm not sure I want to go there and find the data data to die that's that's the problem that's the problem 15 cent your worst enemies that is demonstratively or demonstrably good as I get back and forth so that that's what's true goodness and therefore to say God is good is to say God is self sacrificially loving towards his enemies all of them because that's what he calls us to do and that's that's and that's why we do this podcast that's why we're saying what we're saying is because it is difficult for us to understand how someone can say on one side that God reprobates that he chooses in Korea ates people for for damnation or and I know there's some confidence who'd like to soften that so we do this podcast because your God is too big he can do things that man can't do and we think that's bad yay at least we know the purpose is now you know the purpose is now okay let's let gotta get to this one I'm gonna wrap up at the top of the hour two hours is pretty much long enough for anybody and then we're just gonna have to finish up next time around whenever that is yeah maybe Tuesday a New Year's Day yeah I suppose we can probably sneak one in there cuz out leave till the next day so just just for everyone's announcement real quick I've you know how many days I'm here in Phoenix in January 10 10 yeah and part of that's overseas private in Russia and so Jeff if we can get the flights yeah so not sure when we're gonna do all this stuff but we'll we'll do our best check check this out looking for a leader if you're speaking to them how does Calvinism and these views impact them practically I I don't know how you present a sincere invitation I don't know how you preach through the Gospel of John I don't I mean if and you know I've heard some sermons where I don't know how you preach through the Gospel of John the the the John you know speaking unbelievers all that the father gives me will come to me one coming me I'll never cast out did no one come to me and his father sent me draws him I'll raise him up in the last last day the John eight the reason I hear my words cuz you know belong to God the the John 10 you know if you're not my sheep a sheep hear my voice the John 17 the elect that John which John are we talking about I mean I'm just I'm just left going how clearly has never even listened to a reformed sermon has never even never been challenged evidently to sit down and walk through John six with someone who has any idea what they're talking about there's somebody who has very thick tradition glasses on very very thick tradition glasses you know reformed pastors are trying to exit Gina listen reformed pastors who try to exegete the text description to listen to this and navigate through you know the passages where they have to go you have to qualify everything you as you've Illustrated so many times you have to make words mean things that the words don't mean again really you have to make the words mean things the words one of the best illustrations this go to his website now go to soteriology 101 and look up latent flowers article on for known in Romans 8:29 and you will see exactly what he just described it is one of the most painful examples of how am I going to get around what this means I'm gonna pull from something over here pull some over here now all these sources are self contradictory they're convicted to each other I mean I'm Paul here here not I'm going to put it all together and is horrible it is eisegesis on steroids and it's late in flowers now I just don't think Andy Stanley bothers to get into a level of depth in Romans 8 to ever have to deal with it I've never heard him do it so to sit there and say these reform guys they're just they're just twisting words with me how about given some examples yeah you know I could get that I can give you exact same an example the the intellectual dishonesty especially a preaching through the Gospel of John where at the end of the Gospel he tells us oh you by the way here's why I wrote the book intellectual dishonesty see he thinks that by calling people to faith that's a contradiction to Calvinism that is how shallow inaccurate and latent flower sisters go ahead yeah that's right again that Layton this is why those of us on this side have we only have one choice we have two choices either you were the lamest Calvinist ever who had no earthly idea what you were what you believed back then or you're desperately dishonest now those are the only choices we have because any Calvinist worth his salt knows that God ordains the ends and the means and that we therefore are to call people to faith in Christ everybody knows that Andy Stanley doesn't know that why did you sit there and let Andy Stanley make a fool himself that's the question we have to ask so we are only 37 40 in and he's just a few minutes later he's going to let me see if I turn this thing off okay uh stop doing that I clicked on something and I can't stop it um well I do better just stop and we won't worry about that we'll hopefully be able to save it later I was trying to mark it mark the spot so we can pick up right that that particular point but I've made a mess of things anyways there there's not a ton yeah there's really not a ton of stuff left over I could probably get in in half an hour or so but I also had something else cued up the new independent fundamentalist Baptists are putting out short little responses to Calvinism and in there nice and short but they are as they are as deep or as deep as this guy's intellectual life okay there's just nothing to him I mean it it's just really bad but it's so common I already had it queued up so I guess on New Year's Day we will you got nothing else going on that day because we don't got anything going on today so you know the kids are back in Vegas and so it's like me and that'll be the last shot we've got to try to get it all done before I'll be in Owensboro teaching next week a New Testament textual critisism at Covenant Baptist Eli seminary and like I said I'm back for a grand total of I think eight days and then G 3 and looking forward to seeing a lot of you there but then I go straight from g3 to Russia and Germany I don't get back to February and I especially when I'm overseas it's really hard to do these programs because the time the time thing you know I'm gonna be I don't know in Russia 9 10 9 10 11 hours I don't know how far it is it's a big place in a cold place right now so we'll see we'll see but right now we'll plan on on Tuesday New Year's Day and as long as there aren't any parades that'll keep us from getting here they're all over that direction anyways sober we're pretty good so we'll try to finish this up there's not that much more which I finish this up and a couple of those AF n IFB things as well on another radio free Geneva I guess everybody will probably want to hear that opening yet once again so we'll we'll do that so thank you very much for listening for two hours now hopefully it has been worthwhile and we'll continue it next week god bless [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] you

Channel: Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Length: 123min 28sec (7408 seconds)

Published: Thu Dec 27 2018