An Open Letter to Andy Stanley

some people have come to the conclusion that I don't believe the Bible which I know I'm glad you laugh and didn't go with that I'm glad yeah exactly so anyway and I realize part of the reason that I'm easily misunderstood by people who don't understand what we do because they don't do what we do and they're not part of this fabulous community that you've helped us create whether you're a Jesus follower or not have chosen to be part of one of our churches to catch that did you catch that whether you're a Jesus follower or not you chose to be part of one of our churches that's not the church the church is the Bride of Christ Andy Stanley now how's the idea the church includes unbelievers so you bring unbelievers in and yet your friendship am in hey folks this is just the logical conclusion to all this friendship evangelism and and you know seeker seeker sensitive you know hyper seeker sensitive stuff that's been going on for a long long time just bring them on in you know let them let them you know let's have them have the Lord's Supper and you know just to you know this idea of a radical call for discipleship take up your cross deny yourselves die to self that's that's super Christian stuff and the ground out of which this has grown is the anti lordship movement Zayn Hodges Wilkin Dallas Theological Seminary I know there's people magic going to Dallas without being anti lordship but let's face it that's part and parcel of it we listen to this and and now you're now you're going wait unbelievers part part of the church and you want it that way yep yep how do we get there theology matters theology matters your your gospel matters and if your gospel is based upon getting someone to tip the hat toward God then that's going to have ramifications it's gonna have a result down the road and so when you hear this guy talking about how all these little churches need to close down and just sell their property give the money to the big churches the mega churches doing stuff that he's doing there's how did he get there started small but there were cracks in the foundation and eventually it all gives way and you got to put something else in its place and it's not gonna be something New Testament and this ain't certainly a New Testament so you know there you go is maybe I haven't been clear on exactly why I'm doing this series and exactly who I'm talking to so I want to be super super clear and then we're gonna take off and move in a little bit different direction okay I want all the people who grew up in church and then left church because they couldn't figure out how to reconcile what they learned in school or what they experienced in life with what they learned in church and decide you decided you know what it's just irreconcilable sciences irreconcilable with faith Payne is irreconcilable with faith pain and suffering in the world is irreconcilable with faith my life experience is irreconcilable with faith just and by the way where should all of those topics have been repeatedly addressed if you're preaching and teaching the whole Council of God regularly if the words of the Apostle Paul echo in your in your ears I am innocent the blood of all men because I have not shrunk back from proclaiming to you the whole counsel of God if you've proclaimed the whole counsel of God every single thing that he's talking about has been addressed repeatedly in your presence in your upbringing in a sound biblical church that has not been infected by a sub biblical cultural easy believe ISM anti lordship type of entertainment so it's certainly understandable why he would know lots of people who've left all that because it wasn't addressed because they were just being entertained rather than being challenged that's that's understandable Lorna what I've experienced as an adult is irreconcilable with faith and so there's this tension and I can either to pretend that I believe something I'm not sure exists or I can go with what's obvious and with what's undeniable I want you to reconsider Christianity because I think some of you I'm guessing a whole lot of you but I don't want to judge a lot of you though you laughed Christianity for reasons that really have nothing to do with the Christian faith you left unnecessarily so I'm inviting all of you to reconsider Christianity not the Christianity of your childhood but a grown-up faith with a grown-up God with a little bit different perspective because I want you to come back okay so from his perspective what he's presenting is a grown up faith the way they're doing Church is the grown-up way and a grown up faith doesn't actually answer all these questions a grown up faith is the faith it's gonna say well you know the Christian faith really is in based upon Scripture it's based upon the resurrection of Christ the Scriptures are just a collection of ancient books very useful very important but there's this more esoteric way of understanding things exactly how it ends up working out I don't even want to raise the idea of Andy Stanley debating someone that would actually push him on these topics because unfortunately I think it would it would be bad let's be honest some of you miss us a little bit I mean you just can't bring yourself to go back to church because it's just all that nonsense that you've decided it's just all nonsense but some of you are old enough now you having kids of your own and there's something in the back of your mind like am i robbing my kids are the foundation I had in and so all that sort of stuff so I am just trying to put the rungs as low as possible on the ladder to let you know whatever your objection is to Christianity and whatever your objection is or was to church it may not be and this isn't meant as an insult it may not be a valid objection you might have left necessarily Anna now you know if you tell somebody I'm putting the low the rungs as low as possible and enter eyes I'm not trying to offend you really you know I know what he's trying to do but what's totally missing what's totally missing anywhere in here what what about the spiritual aspect what about the idea that that maybe someone left because they were never actually truly born again oh well that's not possible because all I gotta do is tip your hat toward God and you're saved so so the whole theological truth of false faith and hence that element of apostasy what about people who just they know the truth but they love their sin more and they were never challenged with the message of holiness with a message of obedience to Christ within a context of a easy believe ISM type of Christianity or sub Christianity I guess be a better way of putting it I want you in fact I don't want any of us to stay stuck in this false dichotomy this false tension of doubt and despair you know you embrace religion and you have all these questions you have all these doubts you ask really good fitting of fact-based questions and you keep getting faith-based answers and if the fact-based questions versus faith-based answers so what's the definition of faith here because remember he said so he's gonna say something later in the sermon he said already before when he's talking about the disciples when they're in Jesus as presents they didn't need to have faith because they could see them and I'm like what do you think faith is this is this is a horrific Allah unbiblical understanding of the term faith and what faith is they're all the spirit and saving faith so and so forth the answers you've gotten to your fact-based questions are faith based answers no wonder you have doubt and no wonder you've turned your back on Christianity or religion in general but most of you because you're smart most of you have not stepped into the realm of atheism because the whole idea of a godless universe where somehow you've got a mind and figured out how to come up with purpose and morality and absolutes and all those things you are smart enough to know there's something in you that hesitates and the very thought of a godless universe a Creator less universe just leaves you and fills you with kind of a sense of dread and despair and I'm not saying that all atheists live in despair and all atheist live in dread I'm not saying that at all but most people kind of have this gut sense that if I checked the atheist box could I just point out that the only the only logical conclusion to atheism is despair you know he's so seekers entity where I don't go I don't want to offend anybody yeah well and don't tell him the truth the process are you actually leaving the door open for the idea that there there could be an atheism that doesn't result in the only atheism that doesn't result in despair is an atheism that hasn't been thought through isn't it good to push somebody to think it through maybe possibly anyway not sure I can defend that either I'm not sure I just won't have another set of doubts so you just feel stuck in the middle and so for those of you who've kind of stepped away but haven't really stepped into anything else you're you're a nun you're non-affiliated this just isn't you do you've just decided to check out I want you to reconsider and I want you to come back because I think perhaps the church did a horrible job and I'm owning that the people who have my job pastors did a horrible job laying a foundation for you they gave you a childhood faith that never grew up and you outgrew it and if I knew what you okay so so what we're what we've been presented but we were presented in the last sermon is a mature faith the matura faith is the the scriptures are not foundational that the early early church fathers didn't say thus saith scripture even though you can fill pages with where they did that completely ignores the centrality of the Greek Septuagint to the New Testament Scriptures and the citations of Scripture and all that kind of stuff that's that's the mature Christianity now it could very well be that what he's thinking is the immature Christianity is the old-style surface-level evangelicalism the churchianity of his own youth what he doesn't even realize is neither one of those are actually grounded in any type of meaningful New Testament perspective is he really saying let's talk you know he was raised in a mega church let's talk about a mega church that does it right a mega church where the Word of God is central a mega church where exegesis is a is exemplified every single Sunday from the pulpit John MacArthur's church Grace Community Church mega church and yet they recognize you can't have fellowship in a mega church so that you have these fellowship groups which they recognize are truly churches in and of themselves in the sense that they're very concerned about what the leadership is and the exegesis the text in those contexts as well are you saying Andy Stanley that that's childish Christianity what what John MacArthur has I you know I'd be interested in knowing what he what he thinks about that because obviously MacArthur doesn't do it the way he's doing it they have this thing called church discipline and you know John MacArthur is absolutely convinced that you let the Word of God speak you don't come to hear a special person you come to hear the one special person and you hear him through his word is that childish Christianity i I just I just wonder and if I'd experienced what you'd experience I'm sure I would feel the same way but I just want you to know maybe maybe maybe maybe maybe there's more and I would love for you to come back one of our students said this after week two when we talked about all the the different you know kinds of God's he said this he said I thought I was an atheist but I realized now I don't believe and boyfriend got remember a couple of weeks ago we talked about the gods of the no testament the gods that don't exist because what has happened a lot of you have sort of lot though the big G God lost his appeal or lost its appeal depending how you view God big G God lost his or its appeal because you got your world got cluttered up with a bunch of gods that we said a few weeks ago don't even exist and then also there was another student super-smart guy goes to university not too far from here and he said this he said I I watched that that first episode of this series he said I had no idea there was a way to reconcile science with faith I thought you had to choose science or you had to choose faith but I thought they were totally irreconcilable I am so glad to know that at least there's a category there is a version of my faith there's a version of Christianity where those two things are not in conflict and then last week we did a little bit of a history lesson we talked about a Bible tells me so Jesus where we made the point and this is so huge and I'm trying to try not to review too much of this we made the point that Christianity doesn't exist because of the Bible Christianity does not exist because of the Bible it is the other way around the reason there is the Bible is because of Christianity and this is one of the concepts that so many people outside a network of churches have a hard time understanding I think that you get it because you're above above-average intelligence if you attend one of our churches okay you get this but most of us because we never think about it but we just the way we were raised weren't think about somehow we've gotten the idea that the Bible is Christianity and as the Bible goes so goes Christianity nothing could be further from the truth in fact okay so he's doubling down we've already you know we're not gonna repeat what we did last week in demonstrating the many category errors that Pastor Stanley seems to be suffering from nor the incoherence of his distinction his distinction between the Bible and what he calls the faith or Christianity how he knows the one without the other I don't know as well as his unwillingness to recognize the centrality of the Scriptures which was the Tanakh to the New Testament church during the period of time while the New Testament self was being written we point out these problems last time not to go back through it again but we are we are rightfully left wondering what this Christianity looks like that he is trying to present to us that does not have as its foundation the revelation of God in Scripture now if all he's saying is is that there was a Christian Church before there was a New Testament that's obvious but that's not what he's saying and portions of the New Testament especially the Gospels and the Pauline literature began functioning normatively as Scripture within the first generation of Christians and so trying to somehow separate the Bible out so that the constant attacks upon the Bible can be differentiated from a constant attack upon the Christian faith doesn't work I don't know what you think you're accomplishing there yes I was gonna say it struck me odd and the interview with Russell Moore and maybe this wasn't his point at all but when he posited the question if you could be the evangelical Pope and I'm listening to this and I'm starting to see where that's coming from I'm hearing elements of Sola ecclesia I'm hearing we're really smart we're doing it you know well I don't think you'd have any idea what's so likely zo I know but he certainly does believe that the North Point and recognizes there are other churches are doing the same thing this multi campus social media savvy get rid of all the words that offend the culture type perspective is the future of the church in this culture they I I do very firmly believe that what we're seeing here is the you i've told our audience many many times most of what calls itself evangelicalism is going to collapse on key issues such as homosexuality there's already good evidence that Andy Stanley is very compromised on that subject already as far as the position of the church is concerned I've said that that's coming this is the way it's going to happen is you know think back to the debate last year in South Africa Graham Codrington what happened in regards to his biblio G and the decentralization of the scripture as the defining factor for what the church is supposed to believe and do within the culture over against the hermeneutic of love well now we have the hermeneutic of I don't know what you much you would call it but what normally what it's called is a Christocentric hermeneutic in the sense that it's all about Christ then when you start pushing who is he they can't really answer that without going back to Scripture unless they want to get into some type of esoteric Gnosticism or something like that where it's all an experiential thing but anyway a daughter who's a college student you know she was reading some of the critiques of this series she's going dad I don't get it do they think the Bible caused the resurrection do they think the Bible caused it somehow the resurrection exists because the Bible she said isn't it obvious to everyone that something happened and then someone wrote about it and the documenting of something isn't the same thing is it happening I'm going okay with all due respect to Andy Stanley's daughter if and the fact that he's repeating this means that's well that's what he's hearing - you didn't you didn't hear the point no one has ever suggested that the Scriptures caused the resurrection that's that's not even that's a I don't even know how someone come up with that idea I'll be pretty honest with you all due respect to the young lady I don't know how you might give up that idea what we are saying is that my knowledge of not only the historical fact of the resurrection but why it matters what it means what it means to have faith in Jesus what it means to have faith in his sacrificial death and his life-saving resurrection that is all explained to me not by mere history books I need to have a divine revelation of what all of that means otherwise if I don't have that then you can be like that you know Greg Bahnson used to talk about the some professor in California don't remember what the guy's name was but who came to conclusion you know what miracles happen strange things happen in this world so Jesus rose from the dead well strange things happen in this world because if you don't have if you don't have the coherent message the prophecies the the law the the very basis of understanding why the cross and resurrection can bring about redemption is found in understanding what God prefigured in the law in the giving of the prophecies this one to come Isaiah 53 Psalm 22 that gives you the basis and then in the New Testament you have the explication of these things so when I have faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ not the object of my faith is divine it is a divine revelation it took place in history but what it means is only understandable in the full flow of what God has revealed and what God has said and that's Scripture and that's why it's foundational that's why it can't just be a collection of ancient books because a collection of ancient books that is not a honest toss it is not God's speaking is insufficient to give you a basis for believing all these things about the atonement all you'd be left with with simply reliable historical books is Wow something happened in the asked and a lot of people have had different ideas about what it meant that's at the end it's all you got and since you don't have anything of Revelation left then you end up having to fill stuff in with traditions and all the rest of that's what liberalism is all about that's that's why liberalism always explodes out into all this wackiness and LU ninis so I don't I don't understand why our objection is not being heard because your background should be sufficient I bet you Charles Stanley gets it I'll bet she understands you are so smart who are your parents okay anyway so the point is this the point is this Christianity does not rise and fall on the integrity or the véra by verifiability of the entire bible and i know that you know if you grew up in church the entire bible why say the entire bible what about the parts about the resurrection what about the parts about prophecy what about the parts about the Incarnation could could the parts about the Incarnation be defaults so that you've got it you've got a Jesus who really isn't the god man which which parts pastor Stanley are negotiable here because I know what you're trying to do you want to try to minimize the targets you want to try to lessen the range of fire because we live in a society where there is a constant expression of hatred toward the Word of God and constant attacks upon the Word of God I get it I got to deal with them all the time I understand I know what you're trying to do but and maybe I'm just not as smart as all you folks at Northpoint but I don't see how you're accomplishing anything if I'm if I'm on these people listening to you and I've quote/unquote walked away from the faith leaving aside all the other issues that that might that might entail how is what you're saying accomplishing anything what is it giving to someone hey you know what there are enough reliable parts of the Bible to know a little something about Jesus but we can't really tell you which parts they are because we can't give you a consistent criterion that that's what that's what you think is going to help folks I I don't I don't get it sort of handed though you know when you were a kid they said pray this prayer here's your Bible remember that pray this prayer ask Jesus in your heart here's the book you know god bless you good luck ok hey if that's if that's what Andy Stanley experienced I am sorry I'm sorry because that is wrong that that's that's not New Testament Christianity never has been you don't yeah I get it easy believe ISM no discipleship no depth hey if that's what you think the quote-unquote church is if that's what the Church of these people's youth is hey let's just be honest that's not really Christianity but you don't correct that by then saying it's not really based upon all of the Bible but only parts of the Bible all right I understand because you know we were children but at some point we need to grow up and see this the way that it actually is and the great news is Christianity does not hang by the thread of the Bible Christianity preceded the Bible the reason we have the Bible Christianity did not precede the Bible Pastor Stanley wake up that's I'm sorry could someone communicate this to him that sir is a lie L ie stop lying to your people you've been corrected you've heard the Corrections open your ears there is no apostle of Jesus Christ that presented the Gospel message without saying thus saith the Scriptures read Acts read it and then sir they'll the thread of the Bible do forgive some of us for wondering just exactly how robust your faith in the Word of God truly is sir thus it hangs by the thread of the Bible ah can you name me something else you'd like to hang by that would be stronger than God's Word sir just just just something your sermons I would hope not oh and you wonder you're wondering why you're getting criticism wait because we've heard this language before it's just always from enemies not from people standing up it's supposed to be a Christian Church in front of 32,000 people that's what makes it different is because of something that happened here's something kind of interesting that I got to move on when when Jesus was walking around the earth he did the strangest thing in fact Jewish Jesus told the Jewish people in the first scripture the I'm excuse me the Jewish Scriptures we call it the Old Testament you know again what is the significant difference between why is the Bible well I admit that that's a later term who cares how is that not synonymous with Scripture when when when Paul says pasa Groff a all scripture what's he referring to but would it be appropriate for me to say that that's the Bible now I know in his context would be the Old Testament but it just seems to me that you're trying to protect people from modernistic attacks upon particular aspects of biblical revelation but then you're leaving them only with the Old Testament which is the primary area of attack anyways the historical attacks it's all about the Exodus and science and creation it's you're just leaving them with the Old Testament anyway so there's there's no way around that I just I do not understand this false distinction and and why it actually carries any type of merit 30 years later but the Jewish Scriptures Jesus went around saying did you know that our scripture because he's Jewish did you know that our scripture is all about me he told the people he said did you know everything in our scriptures points to me and this was blasphemy what do you mean he said yes um timeout he did this after the resurrection and he opened their hearts and minds to understand all the prophecies from Moses all the way through and how it was all about himself and they didn't say it was blasphemy because they were his followers and were now had their minds opened by supernatural force and the fulfillment of all of this stuff that we grew up as Jewish children hearing about it is all fulfilled in me I'm fulfilling all of it and it was like are you kidding who in the world would say that and some of his closest followers in the first century they began to believe it they're like you know what it kind of lines up you know our scripture says this and he did that our Jewish scripture says this and he did that what is he talking about I'm sorry but what is you talking about could you give us a Bible verse once in a while you know I know it's not the foundation so I guess it's the Andy Stanley but could you give us a Bible verse when are you talking about this is this before the crucifixion is this after the crucifixion is it before the resurrection after resurrection and coming the Holy Spirit what are you talking about there was no little process where someone was sitting around going you know this this prophecy thing I'm starting to see some some stuff here you know and maybe yeah there's nothing hanging and hanging and this is supposed to be bringing people back okay I started believing maybe this is the Messiah who is the fulfillment of all the Jewish Scriptures and then he was crucified okay so this is before the crucifixion and so somebody so before the crucifixion some of them are starting to look at the Bible and going maybe this is the Messiah I thought that it is that Peter Andrew what obviously he was wrong and we were wrong about him and there were no Jesus followers after the crucifixion and there was no one on the planet Earth that believed Jesus was the son of God when they saw him die you know I just wonder if maybe some of these folks that he's trying to get to might and maybe this way doesn't want him to do but they might they might pick this up and they might open it up and they might start looking and and they they run into the crucifixion okay crucifixion all right nose and and then they read this section where Jesus dies and again I'm just getting old used to be able to read these things really easily but can't do it anymore and then they they run into this Centurion guy and Jesus uttered loud cry and breathed his last and the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom and when the Centurion who stood facing him saw that in this way he breathed his last he said truly this man was the son of God and they might they might run into stuff like this you know and and they might go what what are you talking about and then he rose from the dead and the whole thing got started and suddenly all those Jewish followers went back to those scriptures that Jesus claimed predicted him and they said to the Jewish community in Jerusalem he was right we lost faith he's back we're back everything in the Old Testament our Jewish Scriptures points to Jesus and what happened this is just I got to move on but what happened then is the Gentiles who started becoming Jesus followers they got interested in the Jewish Scriptures why because they wanted to become Jewish nope they would have already done that they got interested in the Jewish Scriptures because they weren't able to have access to and that was difficult for second third century but as they became exposed to and had access to the Jewish Scriptures they realized that what Jesus said exactly right the entire what we would call old testament pointed to Jesus and so Gentiles got interested in the Jewish scripture and there so there's one little problem with the theory here and and that is that one of the most fertile fields of evangelism for the early church seen over and over again the book of Acts were the god-fearers the god-fearers were Gentiles who were attracted to the Jewish Scriptures because of what the Jewish Scriptures taught monotheism but they had never heard of Jesus so they were attracted by those very scriptures that he said well that's not what they were interested but what about the God fears they were central absolutely central to the founding the church and the end the missions the founding the church would Philip I anyway damned 'pls to this I just want to give you one that I got to move on it's Isaiah chapter 53 Isaiah 53 now let me just give you a little homework assignment especially if you if you would say you know I'm kind of a nun I'm not really into it I don't know here just this would be so simple in fact you can stop watching and do this this is how cool this is okay Isaiah 50 okay now I would never ever ever discourage someone from getting people to go read Isaiah 53 and the rest of the stories you could tell about this is great you know Jewish guy never heard Michael Browns told similar stories more than once about the huge impact that Isaiah 53 has the pastor Stanley you've already told people that the foundation the faith isn't the Scriptures anyways and how do you know that this section of the Bible is inspired is literally God speaking how do you how do you know this wasn't a lucky guess or that it's been changed or altered or you know I just I just wonder you know where were you going with it that's all this was written about 700 BCE you know 680 to 720 years before Jesus and when you read Isaiah 53 ask yourself this question who does that sound like who does that sound like and it sounds exactly like Jesus and Jesus said talking about me and nobody believed that until after the resurrection it's like how can we miss it in fact I have a friend when I was in graduate school I met a guy and his story was that he was Jewish and he became a Christian and so when you meet a Jewish person who's a Christian there's always a story and this was his story when he was a senior I think a senior in college he had a friend it was a Christian who kept inviting him to church he would say I'm not coming to your church and this is just his story this isn't a statement about Jewish people this is just his story he told us Ben look I'm not gonna go to your church I don't even go to mine okay so he said I'm just I'm just not into that and his friend kept say no you got to come and then his friend said look if you won't come to church with me if I will you read something and he's like whatever so he thought he was gonna bring him a book or an article his friend brings him a piece of paper folded up and hands it to him says just read this so he goes back this doorman opens it up and it's Isaiah 53 and his friend written out the whole thing that's like great here I had to read this and he's like and he thought there is no way this isn't the Jewish Scriptures he reads this and he he says you know what the Christians have taken the Jewish Scriptures and they've changed him and he twisted him there is no way this is in the Bible are not the Bible there's no way this is in the text that I grew up with as a young Jew so between semesters he goes home he finds his his Jewish Bible pulls it out Isaiah 53 and lo and behold it is the very same thing that's found in the Christian Bible so now he's really disturbed so he goes to see his rabbi the rabbi that their family grew up with makes an appointment goes to see him and he says to his rabbis his rabbi this friend of mine is a Christian he told me to read Isaiah 53 and he says to his rabbi who is this referring to and his rabbi kind of you know chuckled and said well it sounds a lot like Jesus doesn't it and he said yes that's why I'm here that's what's bothering me and he said that his rabbi said well it does sound a lot like Jesus but we're Jewish and we don't follow Jesus he said he drove away thinking that's not an answer that's just a knob servation I already knew that Jewish people don't follow Jesus but that's not an answer to my question who is this about the point is when you read Isaiah 53 and it's written six 700 years before Jesus you go so what happened is Gentiles the 1st 2nd 3rd all you know before Christianity became legalized they became the Gentiles became enamored with the Jewish Scriptures and then they did something that was so offensive to Jewish people I'm sure we still owed Jewish people an apology the Christians took the Jewish Scriptures and combined them with the first century documents written by the followers of Jesus bound them together eventually called it the Bible they basically just excuse me we owe them an apology if it's the fulfillment and Jesus taught it the apology would be for for what some type of hyper social sensitivity maybe political correctness there's there's no reason for an apology Jewish Scriptures now why in the world with Gentiles care anything about the Jewish Scriptures they're not didn't want to become Jewish in fact there was so much conflict between Jews and Gentiles in the 1st century and 2nd century in fact there's always been at some level somewhere in the world an unfortunate and unnecessary conflict between Jewish people sometimes and the communities that they live in but at the same time in spite of this kind of racism toward each other the Gentiles were so fascinated by the Jewish Scriptures because once they became followers of Jesus they couldn't help but recognize the Jewish Scriptures seemed to point to the coming of this Jewish Messiah so that's not the only reason and what's our evidence for this the New Testament itself where the law concerning well there is a story in the news today about a mother and daughter Oh shut up Siri says news today how did that sound like I don't know there's during the news state a mother and a daughter married thank you very much homosexual advocates and then I discovered their mother and daughter so now they've been arrested for incest now I was gonna bring that story up and just point to all of the radicals promoting this stuff and say what are you complaining about why isn't Barack Obama out defending these folks granting them of a presidential pardon you you don't have you don't have a leg to stand on to even find that disgusting you get you you sod that that branch off with the ax berger feld decision it's done so with you can't you can't object to that what do you what is your problem anyway there's a good example there is a issue of incest in 1st corinthians chapter 5 and when Paul wrote to the Corinthians he said this is how you should have handled it and you should have known these things why because the law says it it's right there in Leviticus 18 the Vegas 20 so it wasn't just this there were prophecies the Messiah and the rest of stuff it's it's it's part of the very fabric of all the New Testament epistles the the intertextuality that is so plain in the New Testament just it's discouraging skipped over here Gentiles took them put them together said hey there's a top half in the bottom half of first half in the second half we're gonna call the first half the Old Covenant which was very offensive to Jewish people but there wait a minute it's not old it's current to us this is who we are but the Gentile said note we're gonna call it the Old Covenant because it's in contrast to what Jesus said when he said today I am launching right before his crucifixion I am inaugurating a new covenant so about a hundred and thirty ad a guy so evidently the very language of the book of Hebrews is also offensive and that way is that saying it might be what he's saying you might be saying yes language of Hebrews is very offensive to certain Jewish people and it is but I but I'm not sure what the point of that is well Leto from Sardis Milito from Sardis first person to actually label the Jewish Scriptures the Old Testament this is 130 about 130 ad and in fact he what I'm alito's later than that sorry but he is very important but he's later than that Jim but he was so fascinated by the fact that the Jewish Scriptures foretold Jesus he was wealthy he traveled to as he says in his letter we have a letter that survived antiquity in this letter he says he traveled to and he called it Palestine I traveled to Palestine to find out for myself about the Jewish Scriptures and he gives us the first Christian list of the Old Testament what we would call books of our Bible the point is this for a couple but by the way that molinos testimony in regards to the Old Testament Canon is extremely important really is and is one of the earliest ones testified that the apocryphal books are not canonical that actually happens to be correct there give give give credit where credit's two years Gentiles were following Jesus they were fascinated by the Jewish Scriptures and eventually they incorporated those scriptures together with New Testament documents that became the Bible the point of all that is this Christianity preceded the Bible in the sense that the New Testament is written after the events it narrates of course but Christianity does not proceed scripture that I mean energy is why we have a Bible the Bible didn't cause Christianity now why is that important to you if you've kind of step back from Christianity okay the epistemological and category errors there are gargantuan and you went through them in one sentence so temporally historically there is a process the writing a new testament and the canonization and you don't get the binding together of all these documents into one volume as if that was necessary I mean hello the old testament scrolls weren't in one scroll either did that mean something but there wasn't the Tanakh because they're in different Scrolls of course not so what is this well eventually in Sinai Atticus you know there's son Atticus down there the big huge thing eventually you get it bound together and now you have the Bible but Christianity was before that so stinking what divine revelation upon which you know the truth and the significance and the meaning of the Incarnation the crucifixion the burial the resurrection the concept of atonement justification sanctification glorification where do you get it all you get it all from those documents that our God breathed so what does any of this have to do with the tax upon the Bible not being relevant to Christianity if the Bible is not true Christianity is not left with any message we can't define it any longer so what's your point i I I don't get it I I don't I don't hear what you know you're saying okay what but took a long time to be bound together so what we're not saying that it's just because you can put all of this in small type into one bound volume doesn't mean anything it's not it's not the order of the books or the form of the publication or anything else I've got all sorts of Bibles on this and there's no cover at all so what it's the words and know what they mean not whether they're bound together I just feel like you're given somebody a false hope because I don't see how it answers any of the issues simply this if I said this last week if you walked away from faith because of something in the Bible that you just couldn't jive with it didn't make sense to you you can't add up with science what if it was an Isaiah 52 pastor Stanley what if his size in Isaiah 52 what if it was in Psalm 21 which is right next to Psalm 22 the prophecies the very prophecies you were just talking about what if it was in the very same chapters what then how do you make this distinction to where I don't worry about that stuff over there just just hold on this stuff over here what's the criteria playing you you probably walked away from Christianity unnecessarily because Christianity does not rise and fall on a book and Christianity doesn't rise and fall on the Bible the Bible came much later as Jewish Scriptures because they talked about Jesus and pointed to Jesus in fact now some of it this way the reason and and nobody told you this because if you grew up in church you know who cares but it's it's become more and more important now that we're smarter and we're asking bigger and broader or smarter the reason that Christians take the oath yet we're smarter yeah we're smarter than Jonathan Edwards and all those those dumb people back then we're smarter they thought about this stuff when they were in diapers estimate seriously is because it pointed to Jesus and the reason we take the Old Testament seriously because Jesus did now I'm a very simple personal Jesus did how do you know Jesus did all you've got her a bunch of historical documents you don't know what Jesus did or didn't do I you you already cut off the fount yard to cut your knee catch yourself off the knees all you guys do is say you don't know what Jesus did well Matthew you don't know what Matthew wrote that math Matthew's writing for that's just a matthean community you don't have a guy named Matthew you can't prove that Bart Ehrman says that and he's writing for particular community he's changing stuff that Mark said so you don't know what Jesus said mark mark may have gotten it wrong in the Matthews changing something he doesn't even know about see ya see how easy it is to do this I mean I listen to skeptics all the time it's really easy to do it and you've given us absolutely no criterion at all by which to know one way or the other none okay and I've said this before when someone predicts and pull someone predicts their own death which is easy but when somebody predicts their death and resurrection and pulls it off I go with whatever they say okay you know I used the exact argument on the dr. drew show last year remember when I said to all the guys hey when you when you prophesy you're on death and resurrection and then I think if you rise from the dead that gives you ultimate authority in deciding these issues I agree a thousand percent problem is I have a divine revelation from God that tells me that Jesus Christ rose from the dead God has spoken you seemingly are telling people it's not dependent on that yeah these just historical documents and they may say this and so we might choose to believe it but how it interprets it or what it says it's supposed to mean it's that's how do you hide you ground that I wonder I don't know we're not told so Jesus after that I mean Jesus said don't change anything about the Jewish Scriptures he said I am the fulfillment of the Jewish Scriptures Jesus seemed to have taken literally much of the Jewish Scriptures and so I just stand with Jesus taken literally much of the Jewish Scriptures what do you mean by that what do you mean literally and what do you mean by much you mean there are sections that he didn't take literally you mean he didn't accept or he did accept but interpreted them metaphorically these words are supposed to have meanings to them and you're not really using them in a way that's understandable and I don't want you to miss this okay as disturbing as this may sound having said all of that effect people say you will Andy what's your view of the Old Testament and I say I want to have the same view of the Jewish Scriptures our Old Testament I want to have the same view that Jesus did that's right into the best of my ability that's my view of the Jewish Scriptures and I would encourage you to have the same view but you didn't need a but that would be all you'd need now you would need to recognize that the New Testament gives us Jesus's view and it does so accurately because otherwise you just don't know it's just a guess you don't need a but Jesus said have you not read what God spoke to you saying Matthew chapter 22 that means Jesus's view was when you read those scriptures it's God speaking to you you don't need a but you don't need an addendum you don't need a codicil that's enough Christianity does not rise and fall on the verifiability of everything in the Jewish Scriptures in fact I'd go so far as to say this if you never opened the Old Testament if you didn't own an Old Testament if suddenly the entire Old Testament Jewish Scriptures vanished from Christianity it does nothing to undermine Christianity because Christianity began when Jesus rose from the dead and they recognized he was who he claimed to be and this is a big okay that is simply incoherent hooey that is incoherent cuy I have no respect for that no New Testament writer who would have heard those words would have said Amen not a one not a one no nobody in the early church now the early fathers none of the New Testament writers this is liberal garbage it's I'm sorry I cannot show respect for this I I went to fuller seminary I had to sit under liberals okay you know you sit there and you go in this guy's staying for 32,000 people and he's saying this publicly and that was hooey it's just it's just absurd on a level that's difficult to even begin to comprehend the Jesus who makes it his first priority in his first ministry to his own disciples after his resurrection to walk with them on the road to Emmaus and talk about those very Jewish Scriptures to open their minds to understand he meets with the disciples afterwards he opens their minds to understand the scriptures and then you're gonna stand up there and fro these people and say we want to have juice as view the Scriptures but hey if they just disappeared Christian he wouldn't be impacted cuz Chris Christianity starts after the resurrection you don't know what the resurrection means without them you are tearing apart the revelation of God for no reason what you're giving to people is is so shallow it could be torn apart by any meaningful if I could tear it apart any meaningful that atheist could tear it apart - I don't I it is is this the the Apostle Paul writing to Timothy from the childhood you've known the Holy Scriptures which are able to make you wise unto salvation which is Christ you integrate but we don't need them because Christianity only really starts after the resurrection so my Presbyterian friends are going around that's what those Baptists get when not covenantal Baptists but yeah there is a certain eschatological perspective that is behind so what he's saying here right now yeah I get it I hear it coach ways about it people follow Jesus after the resurrection because of the resurrection and when they preach to people they explained what the resurrection meant and what it meant to them and how they should believe based upon scripture let's give the whole story shall we people follow Jesus after the resurrection because of the resurrection and the evidence me think about this the evidence was overwhelming there was nothing religious there was nothing religious about the faith of Jesus first century followers did you see what's on the screen there was nothing religious about the faith of Jesus first century followers maybe he'll explain what religious means there was nothing religious about the faith of Jesus first century followers Christians Christianity this is so big Christianity did not begin with people who believed something Christianity began with people who saw something and then believed in the person they saw back from the dead that's very different than you know belief and belief and you just gotta have faith don't don't miss it you become a Christian through faith you should never become a Christian because of faith it's two very different things than other religions to manage you to have faith in faith Christianity from day one never demanded anyone to have faith in faith you just have to believe it was overwhelming evidence we saw him die we looked into an empty tomb we had breakfast with him on the beach who wouldn't believe come on who wouldn't believe keep-keep that might let's listen we're almost done here because that we've gone over to ours and rich and I are about to fall off our chairs anyways that's good good meme to show it up on Twitter this sort of sort of interesting check check this out check this out faith does that take almost none that's how the Christian faith got started that's why I look up your eyes say this it is not near as fragile as you may think it does not hang by the thread of some passage of Scripture or some miracle in the Old Testament or even some random miracle in the New Testament it is much more sturdier than that if it was that fragile Christianity would have never survived the first century so the disciples sitting with Jesus didn't have to have faith because of the overwhelming evidence now again how he's even defining faith I it's certainly not a biblical concept but let me um Matthew chapter 28 verse 16 using my new Bible now the eleven disciples went to Galilee to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them and when they saw him they worshiped him what's the last three words in English translation but some doubted nah faster Stanley fast Stan just told us it doesn't take they didn't have religious faith it did the overwhelming evidence they they they looked in the tomb yeah when Pierre looked into tomb did he believe in the resurrection no not so Jesus appeared to him and even when Jesus appeared to people some doubted why because it takes work of the Holy Spirit oh I guess that theology thing hidden again huh yeah it's that theology thing hidden again yes sir eh what are you asking for mercy a well-known story from scripture comes to mind immediately regarding evidence and a particular disciple who demanded evidence did not believe unless he would put his fingers in the hold and what did Jesus say to him when he let him do that was I correct thee there isn't evidence that he actually did it okay thank you my head is about to explode anyway blessed are those who believe not having seen not having see not having seen without the evidence that's not faith in faith that is faith in a divine revelation and reality of the promises of God

Channel: Dividing Line Highlights

Views: 27,744

Rating: 4.5387526 out of 5

Keywords: James White, Alpha, Omega, ministries, Christianity, Theology, God, Jesus, andy, Stanley, evangelism, mere, CS, Lewis, inerrancy, bible, free, will, common, denominator, church

Id: W4p5AmbNK9k

Length: 60min 33sec (3633 seconds)

Published: Mon Jan 15 2018