Rabbit CEO Jesse Lyu on launching the R1, future of AI hardware, and going viral at CES | E1885

Hardware is never a choice by preference you don't build a hardware because you want to build a cool Hardware most of the time if you do things like that it it will fa miserably a lot of good cases I learned and I experienc is that you have a software that's so good that you want the dedicate Hardware to make it better it's always around the software it's always around you know what's inside and then if you have a software that's very very edgy very very new you want to D on a hardware at least for the first generation got it so so to me R1 is a result of choose Hardware by necessity not by preference this week in startups is brought to you by open phone brings your teams business calls texts and contacts into one delightful app that works anywhere get 20% off your first 6 months at open phone.com Twist scalable path want to speed up your product development without breaking the bank since 2010 scalable path has helped over 300 companies hire deeply vetted engineers in their time zone visit scalable path.com twist to get 20% off your first month and wizard. will help bring your vision to life in minutes not days with the power of AI visit wizard. i/ twist to get 25% off wizard Pro for an entire year that's u z D.I twist all right everybody last week we discussed the rabbit R1 which was I think the most notable new product to come out of CES the Consumer Electronic Show in Las Vegas you may have seen the demo and viral on uh X Twitter really cool looking product a handheld a pocket AI companion it has a wheel on it for nav navigation it's got a camera that flips over and it's got an LED screen I guess and uh is in this Bright Beautiful orange my favorite color uh and it was the bell of the ball they did a great demo and I thought we would bring uh the founder on today to talk about it really feels retro in some ways uh but it's got a custom llm a large language model and the $200 price point made everybody lose their mines they' sold over 60,000 of these units already over the last 5 days they've been selling about 10,000 units a day so anyway the founder is here his name is Jesse Lou and the firm is based in C Monica California Jesse how are you doing good how are you Jason nice to meet you nice to meet you as well did you expect this kind of reaction for your device did you think it would become the most viral product I guess along with the see-through TV that was the other product that a lot of people are losing their minds about which I don't even know what the application of a see-through TV is if it's up against the wall wall what am I going to see the wall behind it makes no sense um really to me so uh what was it like and did you expect this uh no not at all uh I mean to be perfectly fair with with with our audience and to be honest with with you we expect maybe 500 units for the first day and maybe 3,000 unit for the early adulter Market uh that's probably it um but we we actually prepared to ramp up the order if necessary so we we kind of have a plan B but I guess I'm the most conservative one in my entire team and I think you know our marketing team and design team might have a little bit more confidence than us uh but me I'm super conservative but one thing that I have to mention is that I love the product the first prototype was actually a Rasberry p with a screen because because we're I guess we're like super Underdog team and we actually roll out a web version for for for a very limited amount of of users to test like one feature of the Lamb the large action model which is play Spotify uh earlier uh last year and the result is good and and I love the product because I had the first you know prototype in this correct phone Factor about I guess 4 months ago and I had the pre-built handmade prototype around eight months ago and I've been you know playing with them and carrying with them I love the product but on the other hand I'm little bit in fear that you know maybe we're just a bunch of Geeks and this is like just our own little thing well making something for yourself that gives you Joy at least you know you have one customer yourself right and then you just have to figure out there's other customers so I guess let's start off with this crazy price point it's 200 bucks for the device yeah and so I looked at that and and there's no subscription I mean you do need to have a data subscription if you want to put an LTE card in it right if you want to put 5G in it that's on you you just buy I guess a Google fi card for a data I don't know what those cost probably like 20 30 bucks a month they're pretty cheap how will you ever make money if this is $200 and the hardware is so beautiful how are you going to make a business out of this I yeah so uh I guess that's one of the most asked questions from business perspective uh first of all I can tell you that Jason we worked really hard to make the perfect balance between design and and bomb and even though I cannot give you a very exact number of the bomb because I'm not allowed to share that but we're making money out of out of the hardware uh but but but given by what I observed and what I learn in my past careers the hardware margin is so low you know if you look at a phone you're looking at negative 25% to 7% 8% that's it uh still most of people they're trying to make money out of you know Hardware uh obviously subscriptions uh the the choice of making the same tray in comparison of eim is both reasons is one we want to further cut down the budget the bomb cost of the device because e seem require you know a more expensive par some and same trade is literally just a trade uh but more importantly is that we want to sell to multiple destinations instead of you know we have to have a negotiation with a a career like in us we're talking about Verizon or T-Mobile or at and stuff like that uh we just move too fast and there's no way for us to sit down you know a year to to to talk with these guys and now they're reaching out to us which is great uh fantastic so so so so it's all it's all strategic decision um but I think first of all I want to correct one thing uh I I I actually watched your last episode talked about us yeah um we're are not making any large language model we we it's the large action model is neuros symbolic it's not a large language model U large language model where we usually talk about his GPT 4 you know and Bard and and you know Gro and all that uh those are based on Transformer and they require a a ridiculous amount of GP you on the cloud to be able to train and and get things right uh I don't think any startup raise $30 million can just all of sudden make their own large language model so for the record we're not doing that we're working with all the best language models and small language models and potentially if there's open source language models that's in the future we would like to basically we set up a Evo internal evaluation to keep monitoring the performance from all these major vendors and we can switch on the Fly that's how rabid o works but we are focusing on large action model which we we know for a fact that the language models were the Transformer were designed to understand language better but it performs really really miserably at least for now on finishing the tasks and we don't like the way to work with apis because API one you're betting everyone will give you API which is not the case it's easier for open ey to encourage or big companies to encourage everyone to build API for them but it's really hard for startup to convince you know all of a sudden you have 2,000 vendors working on your API in your format um but even if you have all the API uh oftentimes they don't they don't 100% replicate the full feature of the application you know say I worked with Uber API before back in my previous company rentch 10 years ago their API can do three out of 10 things that you can do and it's really hard to convince them say hey can you do all the things from their app you know they have no incentives uh so we don't like the API that's why we were like okay hold on let's take a step back let's think about a universal solution let's create an AI for a universal solution to whatever the application is is Android app IOS app Windows app how can we build a universal solution uh knowing that language model weren't designed to trigger actions so we actually use neur symbolic to basically start we actually start working with data labeling companies with started to collecting based on our own assessment we actually assembled test groups to have real human interacting with different kinds of software like uber like Spotify like all the frequent apps so we started this process about two and two and a half years ago we started collecting real human interacting with all kinds of softwares and we we get all those things in video recording and then we set up a neuros symbolic algorithm which become today's large action model that to basically fit in all the clips into the large action model and ask our lamb to read the the the clips frame by frame are you still using your personal number for business well stop it's such a common mistake that Founders make but you never have to make that mistake again because of open phone open phone has reot every single detail of what a modern business phone should look like open phone makes it super easy to get a business phone number not only for you but for your entire team and here's the magic it works through a gorgeous app that works on your phone and your desktop I can tell you open phone is amazing because all of our sales team and op teams use it every day why I don't want people using their personal number then they leave the company and they're still getting phone calls from our customers clients and partners no I want all of that to be professional and open phone is the number one rated business phone on G2 for customer satisfaction because it's so professional and easy to use here's a feature I love you can create a shared phone number with multiple employees fielded in calls and texts from that number so we want to reply to our Founders to our partners really quickly and we don't want to miss a call we don't want to miss a text and that's why we use open phone and it's already affordable starting at just $13 per user per month but twist listeners get an extra 20% off for the first 6 months at open phone.com Twist if you got existing numbers and you're paying through the nose for some insane service you can Port those right over to open phone at no extra cost so here again is the offer go to open phone.com Twist and get this all organized get the 20% off as well open phone.com /wi so you would record me using Uber Eats to order my Sushi or to order my car you record enough people doing that over time then the large action model the lamb is understanding the pixels on the page it knows it's an app and it knows uh where I'm clicking in the app so when you have the rabbit uh and somebody talks to it and says hey order me an Uber black and by the time I get home I would like to have uh some sushi uh for a family of five ready to go give me a range of things uh including some rolls and some vegetarian options it would know how to do that because you've trained it so many times watching hundreds I don't know thousands of interactions in a singular app how many interactions do you need and did I describe correctly what you're doing with a large action model yeah yeah you're you're describe uh described in a correct content uh first of all we don't learn we don't require from you we have a test group that we assign the tasks you know we actually work with data liing part parties so all those CPS were purposely connected without violating anyone's privacy we're not like setting up something to record on your logo we never do that um but yeah the idea is correct we actually had the entire paper published on the rabbit Tex research with the actual you know uh behind the scenes stuff you can go there and take a look uh at at the at at at that paper but yes uh we collect from real human interacting with this apps and what happens is that if if it's very ironic because neuros symbolic runs better on CPU than GPU so our Cloud host is not as crazy merely insanely compared compared to openi compared to any large language model our Cloud deployment is very very reasonable uh we're not talking about 100 of millions of cash we're not even talking about tens of millions of dollars um we have a good enough uh GPU cluster and we have a good enough Cloud computer in in CPU and what happens is that we're not collecting per request we're just asking people to play around you know for example the way we collect the data so the task been deploy be like hey you have 10 minutes on Spotify you know try as much as you want and do as much as you want I'm not going to tell you you have to play this track and click here and do that you explore free flow for 10 minutes um and the neuros symbolic algorithm one of the biggest difference between the traditional RPA for instance if you're familiar with RPA is like basically you're recording the screen of course but you are then deploying an algorithm a pre-programmed sequence to navigate your mouse your cursor to the XY location based on the absolute coordination okay you're referring to robotic process ordination exactly yeah so I'm trying to say so people understand when you're programming a robot you can actually take the robot arm yes and move it to pick something up put it into this box pick a different object up put it into box B right it records that it learns that and then it can just do that over and over again you you've literally done the task it's almost like showing a monkey you know how to peel a banana and then it peels it the way you do it monkey see monkey do basically so that's RPA but neuros symbolic take one step further because we're not recognizing all those Elements by absolute coordination of the entire ratio of the screen we extract and Auto label some and reasoning about elements directly from symbolic method so that means that it doesn't really matter if a app completely ramped the UI got so when Spotify redo its app and it moves podcasts from tabs and then it puts the tabs at the lower part or puts it in a hamburger drop down it still knows that's the word podcast and that's where you find podcast inside of Spotify exactly because the fundamental philosophy logic is that all these modern software are designed for human to proceed the information and they have to have a setting somewhere right they have to have some symbolic thing and and and and and text somewhere and search bar somewhere so that's the advantage for us in comparison with you know let's say just build a hardware on top of gtp4 uh so I I first want to clarify we're not working on any L we work with L but we also created L which is this neuros symbolic method and so you have some Bank of people in Manila or offshore somewhere with these apps playing with them every day uh that's that's been done that's that's that's all been done so you trained it all yeah I've trained we trained let me ask a question there when you when I tell rabbit hey order me sushi family of five you know this amount of food Etc yeah um it knows how to use the Uber Eats app or the door Dash app now the rabbit device then fires off to your service somewhere in the cloud yes this request I have already authenticated in a web interface right hey I authenticated my Uber Eats and my door Dash account it knows the sushi restaurant I like and then it starts this ordering process and then I guess comes back to me with like hey just want to confirm this is what you want and I say yes and then what does it do it pops up an emulator of some type in the cloud and then you have this web emulator that has my login authenticated already how does that work so first of all uh let's start from beginning auth indication right because if you think about a device it works quite different than the previous generation uh because it doesn't have any software pre baked in it doesn't have anything pre-installed it's it's literally just a a Ai and it's your choice what kind of service you want to enable and it's your choice how complicated and how advanced you want this device to be if you just say hey this is a cool looking iPod I just want to use this to listen music then you unlock the music feature choose whatever vendors it only will do music but in tomorrow if you want to start ordering food you have to unlock that feature and the login process is where you're correct we have a web portal that's kind of like our own mini version of itunesi cloud if you understand that in that sense that helps with all the authentication settings and feature management so you go to the website and you basically choose whatever service you want to unlock because again to large large action model Spotify YouTube music Apple music doesn't make a difference it it is an interface you know in fact in fact xedia and YouTube music doesn't even make a difference they are all interfaces so you we give you the freedom to choose whatever preferred Services you want to unlock you go there and you you you basically click the connect with Spotify button and what happens next is that it will redirect you to Spotify login and we don't save your credential we don't touch that you go to Spotify you go to Uber you go to Door Dash you log in through them and then we recognize oh this account is being connected with rabid OS and then what happens is that on on our Cloud we have a very very uh creative structure and Innovative structure that we have considered we have a super host we have a superhost computer that when Jason talks to his rabbit R1 about ordering a a a hamburger from door Das what's going on is that we first see if Jason if Jason's Lo logging with door Dash or loging with Uber Eats right and we saw okay Jason choose door Dash and on on a super host a lamb is interacting virtually with a door Dash app or website a interface and you don't see all of that because all of a sudden this is done all at once because it's it's Ai and then we will render rabbit themed UI on your device get your result got it so you're not you're not directly interacting with the with the host as well you're just you're just talking to it the intention goes l l understand oh you want to do this then lamb do that in the virtual environment and render the result to your device that's how it works and so uh do you need permission from Spotify to do this or you could do this with any app um once you've trained it on the data I mean it's nice to get the permission but it sounds like you could do this without it it is it is Def definitely nice to get these guys permission or I wouldn't say permission I think we should we should develop a better business model because this is to me is like okay you know remember the early days Steve Jobs called Sony be like from tomorrow because we have this device from Tomorrow 99 cents per track you know I I feel like this kind of like a similar situation because we are not first of all we are not creating new users right we're not creating spam users we're not creating prepaid users you are you you're Jason on your authentication to their interface to to use their service when whenever the way that you you as as if you're using on the phone or on the TV so uh we take a good amount of time to studying the terms and agreements and trying to understand this uh seems to us that unless they shut down their interface which is not going to happen because we're we're not violating anything and we're not even create fake user spam there's a lot of ways can we can do that right you know I'm not I'm not sure if you saw the the the uh nothing uh Sunbird IM message bypass through Android you know there's a lot of weird way that that you can you can set it up but we're not setting up any of that you are you yeah and it makes a lot of sense because um for them this is just their user interfacing with their app through essentially a voice interface with some confirmations on the screen is explain to the users who are listening like as a user I order that hamburger through door Dash it says Five Guys or does it give me like a choice say like hey you've ordered from Five Guys and Shake Shack before where would you like to order it would you like your standard order would you like this would you like to repeat in order how how um at this point in the 1.0 of what you've released right uh or the point one of what You released how does that interaction work you know what if the restaurant is taking two hours to deliver or they've stopped delivering and you get the idea yeah that's a great question uh I think that's something that we're really focusing on uh because this is a new problem to solve right so uh one part we know for a fact that we will just directly trigger the service if it's a direct action you know if you want to listen get lucky that's it you know play Get Lucky you want to beat to to be there right away that's that's easy um but we also identifi there's couple of scenarios I guess one thing the reason that I didn't show on my keynote with the BAU on the Travel I booked the entire travel plan through xedia uh some serious inary stuff or some serious stuff relates to you know I guess a lot of deposit we basically want to create a way for you to check back over and over again confirm confirm confirm exactly yeah you're everyone's meing about that I'm meing about that myself so so so so that's why I think you know we need to separate categories there are certain categories you want to get a uber to your home right and and and and that's it that's simple enough we we get it but if it's more complex te text in the future you should be able to see a copy of what exactly going on with the actual paperwork on your rabbit hole web portal that's how we want to design it uh so you always get a get a portal to check you know more legitimate stuff like for for for backup and stuff and you're no taking you know your your summary of the meetings all those stuff will be synced to to the white portal and that's why I call it more like our mini version of iCloud but on the device because it's so tiny um I I think a lot of people because I have ridiculous small hand I think a lot of people get wrong about the size but so it's half an iPhone it's precisely half an iPhone oh it's precisely half an iPhone you're right it's same thickness of an iPhone 15 looks like it's a ma it's Max model it's bigger it's a bigger model but you know I'm putting this next to it yeah uh because it's such a small device uh we actually had a hard debate whether we should just cancel the screen at all right because oh right uh that's that's a make it like the iPod Shuffle where just you know like really really tiny so it just becomes like a tiny recorder or whatever you can make it into a watch you can make it into any number of things exactly take me around the form factor you used a really great design firm to design this for you maybe you could talk a little bit about who you use to design it and the inspiration behind the device because it it looks modern and retro at the same time yeah so it's iconic yeah uh I I I I I don't think I'm confident to say it's already iconic but I saw a lot of people are making free works for us for the case and for everything I think that's a good start you know at least um it's a great story between me and teenage engineering I respect them they're my hero company I started collec vintage synthesizer about 15 years ago uh so when they when I saw the op1 the portable synthesizer they introduce I immediately bought it uh but it's it's very very expensive to me couple of couple months to get the fings together in in the beginning but uh first of all teenage engineering is not a design design form I have to make clear of that they're not they're not a firm that's actively looking for collaboration and taking design fees and do that uh they are a very focused you know music technology consumer firm that is been over it's been there for almost like what 16 almost 20 years 15 16 20 years um it's a such amazing talents of groups of people that I I told my team when I was in Raven I'm like hey if these guys gave me a call and asked me to go work for them I I'd go you know and then fast forward uh when I was working on Raven Hardware project which Raven H and Raven R back in 2017 um I'm like okay hold on a second maybe I can convince them to work with me instead of I work for them because I want to pick the best and they're in my mind the best so I literally just called email reach out and 3 days later I I sit in Stockholm in at their office and then yasper Works in yasper is a CEO and Co co-founder of teenage and and we both had an iPad and pencil and we started to you know start to draw things and during that process he asked me about oh what's your what's your favorite artist what's your favorite car design you know and couple questions WIP chat questions right and it's quite surprising to me that we have the exact same taste on almost everything like all the question he asked he showed me his vinyl collection I showed him my vinyl collection it was exactly same band in the same sequence you know and and he said oh I I I love this and I love that and we talk about a couple of the things uh so so they're like okay let's do this um the whole process is is like I imic you know I I don't think I ever talked about this on any Media or social network but we actually set it up a secret Instagram account we have no email communication no phone calls no nothing we just start we just post sketches on the visuals on Instagram and then we I we just like he likes we leave comments that's that's it so we did that whoa we did that we did that Raven h u project no slack connect room no iMessage group a secret Instagram account the teenage group post to it you post yeah comments Etc is it a public account or is it a private account it's a private private account what an interesting way to do sketches yeah um I think I think because it's so long maybe later later down the road I I might be able to share some of the early early works but but you know all I want to say is it's it's two group of intuitive people that we meet each other and then there's a strong Synergy and then uh fast forward 2018 I officially join as a board of director to their board and then I I you know I have a better exposure of of the company and uh you know I understand they need to be extremely focused on their current road map they have a lot of things to deliver uh but I'm start seeing that a a wider spectrum of recognization towards their industrial design in the past you know three four years which I'm super happy um and then uh Teenage also as a C funding design partner towards another company called pays nothing I'm I'm not sure if you heard of company called nothing they make phones and oh yes the nothing phone yes yeah yeah we were behind nothing ah so uh we also we also are co-founders of nothing as teenage as a whole company so we help nothing set up the initial whole design language and everything uh and then uh when we started to do the R1 it's the opposite way we want to create something cool which is quite funny because of course the first thing we're we're going to look at is who's out there right we saw some strong competitors Humane AIP X Apple folks huge respect to the team um but then I talk I I kind of like persuaded myself I'm like hey you're offering this completely new generation of interaction software wise and it's just to me it's just too risky offer a Sci-Fi Gadget which which no one knows how to use it so in my theory Hardware is never a choice by preference you don't build a hardware because you want to build a cool Hardware most of the time if you do things like that it it will fa miserably a lot of good cases I learned and I experienced is that you have a software that's so good that you want the dedicated Hardware to make it better it's always around the software it's always around the you know what's inside and then if you have a software that's very very edgy very very new you want to drisk on a hardware at least for the first generation got it so so to me R1 is a result of choose Hardware by necessity not by preference if I want to do Hardware I probably want to do a lot of other phone Factor like you said right how about a fancy glass how about whatever that is so it so the first thing we we realize is that we want to set up a good position so that we can compete with all these big companies and upcoming competitors um but as well as offering something that can resonates in your culture and in your memories and in your existing workflows that you don't necessarily needs a menu 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that yeah yeah so so first of all any single direct actions I I'm I'm leaning towards rabbit now why why because when I start trying to accomplish that task it's a speed of thoughts and I have that already and I feel like almost quicker and faster more intuitive than find that analog button without even looking at it and just talk and the AI is accurate and good enough lamb is fast enough to get things done so I'll give you some quick quick reference I'm always on multiple screens I'm always on a lot of things daily when I'm working and maybe talking to other guys if I have something that I don't know this is definitely faster just forget about a lamb just searchwise this is way faster then I have to set up a new tab or go to the Chrome and start typing because you have the action button it's kind of like a CB radio you press the button and you say Define the word iconic clastic or Define the word uh Donny Brook you don't know the word Donnie Brook you say Define the word Donnie Brook I don't have to think command tab go to Google define Donnie Brooke Etc six or seven steps yeah well well not even that some very Advanced you know uh numbers this gives you faster because I I give you an actual case I was having a meeting with our one of our existing investors they were ask about you know performance in comparison you know on sales and and some numbers uh from other company I generally don't know I don't know what the what the revenue from from you know a company last year and if you think about I search on Google there's there's 200 tabs which one is accurate which one is correct so that's we set up the Strategic partnership with practicly just to enhance that part so that's search alone another thing is music I can tell you you will love this just because it can play music it's a second it's it's a second iteration of the classic iPod with with with the same level or even simpler level of of control of this uh I had very my own own privilege to have a phone call with Tony Fadel actually yesterday so we we were on the call uh for for more than three hours and and I think you know just music play alone I that's definitely my number one in the past eight months other than search search is probably 70% of the music uh but I think a lot of people still don't get it like I I start posting stuff on my Twitter there's one scenario I use the vision so basically I double tap the camera rotates and points to whatever you want to point I I use the vision to look at a Discord cuz grab it now in the past three days we have 5,000 members and I'm I'm the customer service guy there I want to listen and learn from from from my as a Founder to listen to the customer support line that's where the truth is I I reply almost almost as much as I can but I start getting lost right because the message is too much and I was actually on a zoom call with some other guy and then I literally just pointed the camera and and and and said what are people talking here oh a lot of people don't get it thato a lot of people are thinking oh you have eyes you are not blind and this is stupid and why are you doing this but I'm actually on something else and and I don't have time to scroll my mouse for 50 pages to and even though the current generation of gp4 vision and our own Vision model needs to be faster actually it needs to be 10 times faster by shipping which I'm pushing it but after four or five seconds it says oh it's here's a conclusion people are talking about how rabid R1 can potentially waste work it gives me the report and which you would normally you might have a college educated person who you say summarize what's happening in the customer support line exactly for me every day or you might point an llm at it and have it do a report here you just take a quick picture yeah I I too was having this problem I was skiing this weekend and I kept trying to change my music using Siri right and it is so painful to just uh lower the volume and or change the track or play a different playlist you're talking about like five to 10 seconds of Siri getting it wrong and then you got to do it again and then your music cuts out the idea that you could press this button and then very quickly at the response time it I think all of those smart speaker systems which The Raven you mentioned a couple of times that you sold to BU do that was your first company I think or second company yeah first company you must have learned a lot about just response time to voice command it's just so terrible to wait that four or five seconds to for it to wake up and to understand what you're doing right and that's something you're trying to solve is that first five what do you call that the 5c delay yeah so so so right now if you break it down uh we the delay came from two parts the large action model again is fast if you if you go check the the demo I released on the Twitter it's fast play a song is instant uh if you ask some random generic questions we we have a technology just basically make the streaming tokens with with L make it very fast if you ask what's the nature of reality what's the difference between oranges and M oranges anything that does not require up to-date information where are 500 milliseconds anything search up toate information that starts to slow down if you if you try open AI in The First beginning I haven't tried uh recently I think recently improved again but you we're talking about two to three seconds instead in of 500 milliseconds um but I F I figure the visual part is where the most delay came from uh we're talking about summer around you know 8 to 10 seconds um but that's not us that's the fastest in the industry right now and we're working restlessly trying to figure out a way to to further cut it down but but really right now the delay is really just search up toate information and vision that's it um if you just trigger lamb stuff that's fast that's that's no burn that's very very fast um but frustrations let me tell you the frustrations so yes number one I don't want to carry two devices no one wants to carry two devices uh I'm not trying to convince people that this is just sexy so that you know maybe you want to carry no uh what we can do for now we know it cannot be an app so same Footprints prints same footprint as your iPhone it's actually very very light it's only 110 gram so what's 10 gram go to your fridge grab two eggs uncooked eggs that's it and it it's light enough so that every single time I I put in my pocket forgot about it and then I appreciate myself for the design of the analog push to talk button because I don't really need to take it out and and and look at the screen I reach out to my pocket and I feel that button that's that's that's actually how I use it most of the time you know I just connect to my airpods or whatever Bluetooth devices or car systems and I don't really need to look at it I I reach and and feel but still there's a lot of things I would rather go to the phone at least for now first of all Heavy social features you know this was not designed at least for this generation this was not designed for connecting all your friends and chitchat and figure out what's going on uh this is more focused on task solving um so that part unfortunately I have to go back to the phone uh another part is for your group chats if you want to get your group Chats on Signal WhatsApp whatever your jam is iMessage it's not going to replace that just yet but we could I mean it's it got it got a tray it got a same card yeah it is it is a phone I mean come on it is it is a phone we we're not trying to be a phone but it is capable of doing all the features of your phone uh another thing is which is I'm not sure if it's just the the fact or if it's just my angle but phone is actually a Content consuming device right like if you think about about the highest gross apps on on the app store right now it's it's Netflix and stuff it's it's Tik Tok Netflix Instagram and all that stuff um that you know I mean come on iPhone has a better screen yeah big screen you big screen better much better screen I I have to say that yeah I that's why you know when I start thinking about laser projectors I'm like oh I'm not sure you know like CU I showed the I I saw I saw the Humane demo that they they they do the the gestures to send a message I'm like no I probably wouldn't that here you know no it seems crazy like forcing it right now startups have to do more with less we all know that and that means increasing your product velocity while maintaining or even lowering your cost now don't forget product velocity is how startups beat incumbit so here's the great news AI is going to help you do that so let me tell you about wizard it's spelled UI z a Rd it's an AI powered Suite of UI and ux design tools with wizard you can generate your app or web designs from Simple Text prompts you can then iterate on these designs with an AI assistant and then you hand off your completed designs as react or css code Wizard's text to UI mockup tool is called autod designer and it's really cool if you're watching you can see it on the screen right now here's the brass tax wizard is going to help you go from idea to mockup in minutes so if you're creating a product from scratch this is going to save you so much time start building products today faster with 25% off wizard pro at wizard. twist that's UI D.I twist for 25% off stop wasting time and start shipping faster the voice recognition is getting better and better and these llms seem to correct errors in real time when it's transcribing so talk a little bit about that the ability to transcribe uh and translate voice to text yeah really accurately and how that's changed things because when you were running Raven the speaker right it was kind of janky right wasn't it terrible voice to text yeah when I started Raven that was 2013 uh I was actually working with SRI a couple of folks in Sri Stanford institution that that institution later uh started new on and new on incubated the so it's it's a long history um but I remember very clearly the first time I paid a visit to Sri the dictation was like roughly at 73 74% native English which is very very bad uh but it it went up very very quickly another problem is not the dictation the problem is intend understanding and then again we're talking about pre- Transformer era and then back at the Raven we work really hard on natural language processing or NP uh that was the best technology before uh GPT can understand you um I guess the idea is not because we didn't thought of we could design an algorithm such way it's just back then we don't have strong enough computition power like gpus like Nvidia gpus to be able to run that um so if you talk about intent recognization it's it's really really painful it's heavily human consuming because essentially all these smart speakers I created and Alexa and every previous generation when we first started create that it's like you're assembling a menu to this quote unquote Ai and you're basically hard that be like hey here's 70 ways that you talk to the speaker that means you want to listen to this track Like I want to listen to play to uh get it on you know like there's there's a cluster of of sentences you can you can describe to what the same intention and NLP is for us to figure out that to assemble that menu so a lot of things were really really not ideal and I totally get a skeptism towards R1 be like hey it's a voice first device as as soon as I saw that that's no go I get it because we are all the same generation of consumer that still share this PTSD from early days of the very poly exactly Siri has been so frustrating for people and Alexa was better but not available on your phone to the same extent Google was yeah assistant never really caught on yeah and so we just assume it sucks and exactly the truth is it's much better now even the chat gp4 app yeah um I took my um you know the iPhone 15 now has the action button which is similar to what you're doing on rabbit I connected that to chat GPT 4's voice interface right so I actually when I press that it goes to that uh what are they conversational I guess mode yeah in the app and it's quite nice it's a little bit slow um it's like the hardware seems to be working against it yeah whereas in yours it's going to work quickly when do you know you'll have made a product that is ready to challenge the phone in your pocket and you will win the which device I go back home for if you forget your phone R you go back for it if you forget your wallet you don't go back for it you're like I forgot my wallet I got some payment options on my phone when will your device you know if you leave home without it you got to go back and get it when will you hit that Milestone of I gotta turn the car around and go back and get my rabbit yeah um uh first of all it's it's such a ambitious task to challenge I say uh we never set ourself at least mentality wise we never set it up ourselves be like oh the whole purpose of rabbit is to is to do this is to kill iPhone whatever that is um but on the other hand we understand deeply especially given by my experience you know my company so to BU do and we were at a very exclusive working relationship that Raven still keeps Ren but I have seen enough uh not only bu do by Microsoft a the other companies uh how big company works you know I I I think we're at the point that we don't think we're confident to challenge right now but we don't want to wait either like like yes you can be the user right I I post this on Twitter I said okay you would you want rather be the wave itself or the best server in town or that floating body in the middle of the oce right because you can only be three of those things so I think what we are is that we're not saying oh we are so ambitious and so dilutional at the same time that I have a very clear master plan this is going to work that's just not the nature of startup I mean you've seen enough of startup things you know you never think like that way you're like okay I want to do it I want to do now that's how it works but I don't think that one thing I have strong confidence is that for for all these current generation of application uh application based operating system it's impossible for them to improve because technology is not is always not I mean fundamental operating uh OS shifts it's not it's never be an improvement it's always reamp it's always Revolution and the problem is not about technology I think a lot of Engineers having a different opinion towards engineer perspective be like oh you know what they just do this and that and Sir become R1 and Sir become rabid o it's not like that the problem is their incentives behind how they make money you know they set it up this entire app ation store with billions of developers billions of apps and all of a sudden they said you know what guys no apps how does that even work like I don't see a very smooth transition how that can happen so quickly to the point that we think we should wait a bit you know and lower further lower our risk we cannot do that we just start right away um but I think consider R1 is iPod you know it's it's it's a good phone factor for a certain Niche amount of requests we're talking about slightly wider request than iPod because iPod really just to replace Walkman right but but with in the iPod era you still have your Blackberry phone I do that yes I I have my Blackberry 800 8900 I have my iPod um but two back pockets you put one in each back pocket right exactly and and it kind of like fix in the shape you know especially if you're wearing Jam you don't even want to swat you just you just you know keep it there but but you know we have R1 this is our first attempt or approach towards a future structure you know the future how software will work with human how you interact with software um but I think maybe in next a year and a half and two years we'll have a better answer yeah uh and for now you're going to go after you know people who are early adopters the on guard people want to try it people who want to invest in the time and give you really good ideas have any of the app developers come to you directly and said can I just you know make stuff directly for your lamb yeah your large action model can we have an interface where you know you have your language Mo action model you expose us to it and Uber engineers and your engineers can be in the same yeah space you know you know collaboration space making it uh operate flawlessly it's actually happening from both sides Jason it's it's one side yes you know you saw the praity deal that's that's a new way we literally handshake on Twitter we we have no no pre-communication you know we just decid to do it and now we offer uh the first 100,000 units with $200 credit of praxity if you think about the device itself which is $99 so it's happening from from this side uh company to company but more importantly you know I think the most underrated feature of rabid OS which is kind of EXP experimental right now but we're confident to roll it out at least for the beta version very soon after people start receiving their device is a teach mode and how the teach mode is works is that you actually explained that uh before is that as if monkey monkey like you go to this web portal right the rabbit hole you turn on teach mode you decide today I'm going to teach you something and it's like if you're teaching your 8-year-old children you'll be like hey come to Daddy sit right here and watch exactly what I'm doing and learn from it so so if you think about neuros symbolic same metaphor and there's a psychological Factor behind it is that Jason if you if I ask you to teach me all on skateboard would you rather do that or not yeah there's two decisions is one you want to do it or two even you want to do it you probably wouldn't willing to but more importantly if you don't know how to do Alli at all you would just say no right cor correct so yeah you go to the teach mode as user you know exactly you're gonna teach right you're not going to teach how to use a skateboard if you've never been on it or skiing but if you said Hey how do I carve skiing and if I opt into that it's going to be good training data is your point exactly so if there's an app that people aren't using like let's say you haven't trained Twitter yet I could say hey let me train Twitter of I like to go to my replies I like to go to my mentions and I like to read these out loud please read me five of them very quickly but I need you to read me the date I just want you to read the content of it and just read me the first 200 characters not the whole thing exactly you already using the teach mode that's a powerfulness of it so the psychological factor is you go there teach under the impression of you know exactly what you're doing so the data you connect the the the you uh of course we don't record on your local device we go we bootstrap the virtual machine and virtual machine is like old technology so you go to Virtual Machine choose whatever platform you want to teach on and you go teach and that recording is very very clean so that the Rabbid o can get one shot in just one shot so you're letting the entire Community teach the rabbit OS to build your own rabbits amazing that's how we make money by the way ah I'm s your question got it so I could make a rabbit which would be my way of interpreting say Tik Tok or social media app like we talked about and I could sell those I could sell my own rabbits to other users yeah so so Reinventing any business model it's classic app Apple App Store or Google Play Store um logic but but we're not uh we're not worry about making money for now because making Mone rais 10 million from venod congrats on that he believes in it and how big's the team like how big of a team do you need to make a hardware device like this and right you know build this stuff out because we see a lot of people doing more with less I'm curious yeah so uh we had uh full head count roughly around 17 people to date but we hiring um but I'm also working with good odm OEM I had resources over the past Raven career so it's the same team plus you know design Arma Team Ag helps us us really a lot um but we're hiring yeah we we we're working on the future version of lamb so consider this is lamb one we have a lamb two uh in design uh which that's going to be much more interesting next year uh with with different uh phone factors but uh the general idea is that I have worked from my my my past companies that I know that if you aiming to make money on day one you're probably not going to be a consumer hardware company anyway you you become like a more like a how do I put it like Oracle well you seem to have been very inspired by the iPod yes and if you think about the iPod my favorite iPod was the clip on I don't know if you remember of the second generation of the yes oh I mean that was I believe yeah like Peak Apple Insanity it was a clip yes that you could it was almost like a tie clip and you could use it as a tie clip with a shorter head Airbus with a shorter headphone cable yes have it have change that too it's a loop yeah I remember that I have that it was a short headphone cable because they knew you were going to put it above your waist you didn't need to like run it to your pocket but it also had physical controls on it yes so it was very elegant in that way but it you know for other people who love to have a large collection you know the the classic iPod the fat one you know the original iPods you know those were amazing just in terms of having a flywheel on it with that physicalness to it right and you have that you have that scroll wheel what does the scroll wheel do on this exactly uh we're we're working on different ideas uh that I couldn't share much but I can share one idea we're working on yeah this is how you're gonna this is how you're going to unlock your device ah so your passcode will be like a a lock when you're in high school two turns to the left two turns to the right Ah that's super clever with with haptic CPS on it with haptic ah so I go one two three push in down one two push in up push in boom 3 two one whatever it is that's super clever and no one's ever gonna know that right because you don't it's it's not even it's not even a text or anything it's just that's sick yeah and so there could be different sizes of this you said like you don't actually need the screen um do you need to make your own responsive headphones or you use Bluetooth because one of the things I have a problem with is you know I have my airpod third generation it work so elegant but I prefer uh the pixel buds I don't know if you use pixel buds but they're flush flat they're much more elegant device they work better with a ski helmet work better if you're sleeping and you want to listen to a podcast before you go to bed or an audiobook like I do yeah how do you think about that because if it was a unique headphone man would there be Hardware gains or user interface gains that you could achieve so definitely if you if you customize from kernel perspective you can further lower down the latency the latency is a issue especially if you if you try in car system you know that's that's why all the car series doesn't work because car system latency is very very outdated so it has a very long latency but right now it's Bluetooth 5.0 which is which is by default work with any different default airp and third party manufacturer I'm more interested in maybe we can do a rabbit airpods but it's fully Standalone that's fascinating so but you put them in and it's your version of the rabbit I just talk to it and I authenticate it so I just leave home with my air my rabbit airpods yeah and say hey ordered me an Uber it says okay Uber black or Uber X right you say Uber X I'm alone or Uber you know SUV and it's okay yeah boom we have oh wow that's sick and that that challenges came from one you you're waiting for a smaller chip with more power because it's little room to wiggle with you know if I do a airpod uh Max I can I can do it now but if you want to do it right uh there's some challenges the Bas station your your case would have to have a SIM card or eim or whatever battery life starts to come into play here yeah a lot of different issues I mean that's a sick idea though if you had over-the-ear headphones and the rabbit was built into it yeah then you just have those and oh my Lord that'd be incredible what has anybody ever put uh a GP a CPU inside of headphones I've never seen that that would be amazing there must be some in Shenzhen or akih Habra we could go find stic I mean shenan already checked you know I I called my bu I I checked there's there's there's yeah there's there's qualcom there's there's Apple there's two big different parties are working on that uh we're not only talking so they might come out with it you think they might come out with I think I think that's where I was working towards too but so I would put on my just the AI I put on my Apple Air Max whatever they call those over the- year ones yeah and then I say hey Siri play me The Clash and I don't need to have my phone with me and it's got Wi-Fi and LTE belt into it that would be amazing and and Jason I'm going to show you something this is the actual Board of R1 it's just that big oh okay so it's the size of we we we didn't even try to make it smaller because because look at the phone factory it fits right FAS we we didn't even try to make it smaller if I tried really hard to make it smaller uh I mean definitely I me half of a playing card if you cut the Ace of Spades in half that's about how big the the car the the the motherboard is as it were yeah so so so over the air I think we can probably do now but I want to do the airpod version yeah which that's going to be a little bit challenging and also of because you know you want to set it up to always listening and then the battery become the issue you know so always listening takes uh yeah a little bit more battery yeah yeah so so but I think you know I'm pretty confident in the next you know 48 months that's something that we can start figuring out um but another thing I think is very very good to think about and don't quote me on this I'm not I'm not leaking whatever this is I'm not trying to say oh this is what we're going do next this isn't the product Road we're just riing here this isn't yeah this isn't um I think a watch makes a lot of sense too uh a lot of community members already designed rabbit watch on Twitter and tagged me uh amazing work um but if you think about it Apple watch is probably the weakest product in their entire protu L I have to say Apple watch sucked until the ultra yes Ultra battery is bettery the battery is better the screen size is better yeah and um I I like when I jump in the water yeah uh that it tells me how many feet I'm underwater right right it's just having the battery life actually last two days yeah is such a GameChanger compared to the other one and um the screen being I don't know what is the screen 50% bigger than the other ones it's it's bright it's very bright 100 it's very bright and that's a big Victor too I I mean the the way I put it this from my old my own experience that I said maybe Apple watch is the weakest in their entire product life is that it's accessory it's not a standalone device they really haven't focused on it as a standalone device I agree they said it's a standalone device I understand you can make phone calls I understand someone it sucks for phone calls some some YouTubers carry that for a week you know I saw the YouTuber challenge that yes I think someone like really like have their Apple watch for like a week it works but it's not designed for it um I think there's a good opportunity or ideas in general that because I'm start pay attention to kiss and what is that I I start to pay attention to how how future generation like kids how kids are kids kids how kids are using their devices oh yeah this is one of the community I just wanted to show this while we're on air you're this is a fanade this so for people who AR watching it's the IC orange and it is gorgeous and then it's got like a you know the the crown but the the best part about it is it has a popup camera and the screen is designed with a little carve out of a popup camera completely impractical but awesome yeah it h it has preserved all the key elements right like the V the venting grills and all that it's super impressive how did this Community start by the way I just have to stop there for a second because did you Goose this community lunatics in industrial design or is it they follow teenage what is it called teenage um Teenage engineering engineering is it that teenage engineering inspires PE other engineering students or people it's nuts to watch how many people have started to make derivative products out of your iconic yeah and I it is Iconic I know you don't want to say that but it's such an iconic uh device that it's inspiring people to make very refined product extensions for you for free yeah exactly so so I think first of all a huge credit to teenage engineering if you ever ever worked in design or industry design or music for one day they're god tier they're like the ultimate outter uh at least that's my opinion I don't care if anyone agrees or disagrees with me they're in my heart the god tier um so that's one part another part is Jason phones are just too boring now like industrial design is pretty much dead like explain that yeah because I can't tell the difference between my last five iPhones it's all the same to exact exactly like like phone companies they set on their current phone Factor usually let's think about the fun time right let's think about Sidekicks engage think about those things you know like flipping nokas like spinning nokas um I think I think it's been so long uh if you look at the past especially past five five years I think a very good example from Samsung and Apple you know now it is Iconic I saw iPhone I know it's iPhone I saw an a galaxy I know it's a Galaxy phone yes but I also can tell you 100% the next generation will be look like the same AB with a with a new different col and this is because of manufacturing these things are so expensive to start a new version it's exactly like cars you know once you make the for the Toyota Prius every time you redesign it yeah you're basically restarting like a whole production line and you don't get any of the scale so they're it's a scale business they're trying to get massive margin in a competitive space so they don't change it yeah but I guess Steve Jobs doesn't give a he does not give a you can be sure he did not give a it just it just that that spirit is generated debt and I think we're not helping we're not we're not we're not basically doing this it's just it's a common feeling towards all of us as consumers that that that if you bring something new and fresh yes it is it is relatively cheap yes we're a new company but people see the joy of it by looking at it and then then that inspired them to create their own iteration of it which is another round of Ripple and this Ripple just start getting bigger and bigger and I really really understand why cpay started nothing in the beginning we have couple chats you know he his whole company's position is phones are boring that's it that's why there's and I mean the nothing phone is wild what what do you love about the nothing phone what is it that uh inspires you about it I I think I think they are probably the most engineering uh and Industrial design uh invested company come you know giv by the fact they are still they are still startup most of the startup wouldn't invest this much into both of these fundamental areas to make a product I think I gave you I gave them huge credit for that yeah um and and you know I I haven't developed directly you know uh involved in in their management or anything like that but you know being with teenage seeing this company from beginning uh it's quite a journey it's quite a journey it's very challenging you know there is isn't cheap you can tell is isn't cheap so it's not cheap it's a luxury item and they're trying to make it's it is a luxury item or not uh well it's still a little bit cheaper $100 cheaper than the flagship Android phones you know say okay but but it's not as as cheap as like shenen stuff yeah so so I I guess you know the younger generation if you think about younger generation like all the all the kids that born after 20 2000 they when they grow up have the first access to the phone and then for the past five years it's the same boring stuff how crazy is that and think about when we started to get have our phones we have we have 200 different things to choose from right and and we're getting a phone just because it's cool that's it I think I think that part is is is mostly gone and you're right is but it's because of the what's behind the the the the manufacturer logistic stuff um but I think it's good for us because we're so small and so in the beginning that we can take this you this massive risk yeah you can take the risk we can take this uh but but also you have nothing to lose you nothing to lose yeah like if you make this form factor and it sucks you change it and you try the next one and you try the next one until the audience responds if Apple screwed up an iPhone 15 the stock would lose $500 billion yeah and when they've had problems shipping problems Etc something gets screwed up they lose a hundred billion dollars in market cap and then everybody loses their mind I mean this is one of the great things about being small yeah and that's exactly the reason why I don't think Syrian and Google uh assistant or or Alexa can catch up so quickly I think they have to throw it away I mean honestly I I think the technology has moved so fast that Siri and Alexa need to be thrown in the garbage and they should just start a new project it actually go faster yes yes yes I agree with that I age the technological debt of Siri must be insane the entire Paradigm has shifted right to lambs and llms and they're not built on that yeah I mean it's a 10 year old product you know so toss it in the garbage I mean that's I mean this what you know if you look at what elon's doing with self-driving yeah I think he doesn't have that fear of saying hey we built this software to stay in the lane but it's not you know there's new technology that's going to disrupt it we need to to that now the hardware stack may not change right right the hardware stack could be the exact same for the iPhone but Siri has to die you know one thing I I want to give huge credit to Elon is that you know there's certain ways he thinks that I think really really resonates with me uh one example is that if you look at the all the cables in the Cyber Tru I'm not sure if you ordered one I have one coming in yeah if if you if you look at how they redesign the cables it's crazy because all the cars have like what what like now like 10 miles long of cables all around all wrapping in different p and he just doesn't like that he said okay that's too complicated let's make one big fat cable and with two plugs and that's it um I I think this is this is this is some thoughts that really pushes a lot of Innovations and and you know from where we are benefiting from it is that like you said we're small we take the risk but this is how we want to think about things you know like like we're not saying oh maybe we wait for two more years there's more API we can work with maybe we can you know suit up and and walk into four apps offices talking to their Executives and maybe we can get a deal we're like okay how about we get rid of all that we don't work with apis we don't work with with apps we just do something from grown up I think we hugely benefit from thinking like that yeah yeah the Cyber truck went to this 48 volt system um which reded red the W the total wiring was reduced like I think it was 80% in the car it's Bonkers and you know now I guess the only downside to that is if you lose that cable yeah the car is done right you lose so much but then the upside to that is if there is a problem it's easier to diagnose you swap the cable out yeah I mean it's it's hard to lose the cable because you got bulletproof panels right so yeah exactly you can't sh I mean Joe Rogan tried to hit it with a with an arrow and it didn't work and he's a pretty good shot so you're good you're good listen Jesse you're like an amazing guest I want you to come back when it ships when are people going to get these in their hands do you think what's the best estimate okay so uh we will have uh our our promise date is Easter which is March 31st that's where where we start shipping we we're working with local compliance and legal teams to get International ORD ship as fast as we can Easter seems reasonable Easter seems reasonable knowing that we said okay the international batches should be you know could be June July but we're trying to move everything faster than than it should be um but uh we can allocate um maybe up to five 50 50 to 100 somewhere in that range of media test devices great thank you for including me I'm I'm super excited yeah you already signed yourself up I know that so so that uh expecting somewhere mid October so in the in next two three weeks and I will start rolling out all the demos as I showed on a keynote uh starting from next week I already showed a couple Bunch uh here and there but the you know like I said latency is something that we want to really really focus on and uh how many years have you been working on this by the way I think this is something people don't appreciate that this is not something you've been working on for six months no uh the original idea like I said rabbit is basically Riven 2.0 it carries a lot of the it's the same original passion and carries a lot of the Legacy but if you want to me won't have me today you know back track to day one I actually had my YC uh application video that community members put up from from my my like uh YouTube channel and that was dated at nine years ago nine years ago when you started this journey two companies ago and then this company you formed a couple of years ago right 2020 or something 2020 yeah it's just it just you know the idea was always right I guess the direction was always correct but unfortunately like I said 10 years ago we don't have all these cards on the table like the intention wasn't solved there isn't there isn't GPU for us to or CPU for us to utilize at this current rate um so I feel like I just waited till till you know the hardware the infrastructure had to catch up to the vision that's basically it exactly and and and yeah I will say that you know it's it's been sticking with my hand for so so long and that that also explains Jason that we're moving so fast we're we're not we're not not starting from nothing and in two months and and build a hardware that's impossible right yeah yeah and the the the ability to create a hardware startup today is much different than when you started 10 years ago exactly yeah I mean exactly the the sophistication level in Shenzhen as just one example when I went to shangzhen for the first time I think it was 2006 or seven okay it was I it was so rare to see a an American a white person when I went there yeah I I kid you not 20 school students surrounded me to touch me and take a picture with me because they' never seen because they had come down from the north there's a there's a famous um um amusement park in shenen and it's not for American Tourist it's for Chinese you know native uh Nationals and I went to it just to check it out and I literally got stopped you know 10 times just people wanted to touch me and take a picture now there's a lot of Americans there there's a lot of startups there and literally when I was there in 2007 15 years ago I guess there more there were there'd be like a tall building 30 story building y y and for four blocks around it were all parking lots yeah and you would drive from one building to another you could see the building you were driving to but it was like driving through the desert and you know what you see that in um uh the Middle East now some of the regions there where like boom a tall building comes out boom Another TR building comes up and in between it there's no infrastructure just a road but nothing else it it was great now you go over there my Lord I I left my I was originally born in China but I was raised on in know where Western sty family uh you know like my parents be like once you're 15 you're on your own I started learning English right after I I I where did you grow up I grew up in Shian where the terracota warrior is but I oh yeah but my my parents start teaching me English on day one and uh and then they're like once you're 15 you're on your own I I literally uh left my left my house um at the age of 15 I got a transfer opportunity briefly started at a a high school um in Singapore and then I went to UK so I I graduate from University of Liverpool uh mathematics and then uh spent another year and a half in London and uh just to hang out with whole bunch of artists U uh so I I don't really understand China now you know I've been I've been leaving the country so long but I I believe you like you know it's crazy and the the heavy odm OEM infrastructure uh that they set it up over the past decades is still you know at least serving Apple you know all the iPhones were made there you know yeah and and and uh but but you know I think a lot of things are start shifting a bit because I think um what I can see from Hardware perspective is that a lot of things are become modular but on the other hand uh core chips are become centralized so the core chips are being centralized t uh tswc uh tsmc semiconductor yes and Nvidia are locking that down or you know arm and other folks are locking it down yeah but the components anybody can make them and just plug them into those CPUs G anybody can anybody can make it but I think no one still beats the shinen speed that's a cool part that's a cool part yeah they can they can fabricate something for you that's brand new in days and have it back to your office in America exactly at iterate I mean the iteration cycle used to be months yeah now it's weeks or days no it's definitely weeks and if you have some special resources you can make it happen in days for sure which is wild when you think about it the it used to be like quarterly you could yes get your product you know iterated on I know because I have a bunch of Hardware startups I tried to invest in 10 years ago and it was just the iteration process was too slow um and you you couldn't be nimble now you can get it done in weeks maybe even under a week that's extraordinary right yeah but but I I I I see the the chips are getting centralized which is not very good for startup to be honest ah why oh because you know you're going to work with only selected partners and then they have so many big clients to work with and then there like okay if you don't sell more than this number we don't even talk to you got it uh so yeah if you want to get the attention of Invidia in the age where Facebook's buying 10,000 yeah you know h100s is going to be hard what do you think about risk and the open source chip movement is that going to have an impact at some point in the future risk for and stuff I I think I think it's more from how you want to design a system a lot of people are debating you know I've been debating myself and been debating with my own community on Discord a lot of people like like hey can we make a local L right can we can we run x amount of features on device instead of in the cloud yeah um for me I get it from the Privacy reasons I get it I think that's that's probably the only valid reasons like why why are you even willing to run it on local because yeah and how many people care about that very small number of people if you encrypt my instructions do them in the cloud and then delete them yeah what's the I mean or you delete them every whatever 60 days or something you may need to have them for some historical purposes but it it just it just there's a huge dispute between academic perspective and consumer perspective right like consum have voted they don't care they don't care exactly but but I think you know the way I bring this case is that there is one way that we can work further towards like Chromebook ways right like even the operating system is in the cloud if we go that route then we don't worry about trips because you don't need that trip to run loc Al to do the tasks it's a terminal right you turn the device into a terminal it's a terminal uh I I'm actually Pro that route you know uh just because from consumer perspective why the heck do I need a CPU in my car leader box yeah why the heck do I need that and and I think you know everything is smart the TV is smart and everything's smart uh I I actually I was setting up a a little apartment because getting too busy I I stayed out office I was setting up the TV and then I need to do the the air airpl thing from my my content of computer so I went Best Buy I bought a Apple TV and then I bought this smart TV from Samsung and they both have Netflix yes and so now have two remotes and one of the the Samsung remote has the Netflix logo on it's like why did I buy the Apple TV exactly and and then Samsung had their own way of chomecast or whatever yeah yes I I think you know then if you think about what's happened behind is that do we need all that and Trace further down do we need all that chips you know do we really need a qualcom in your TV if your TV can just project things and that's the TV should do right yes so I I think you know it's it's a funny uh uh it's an interesting uh Trend to watch in know especially in the next couple five years I always see who can get upper hand and you know the local guy versus CL guy and how it works um but yeah I do agree with elom musk and a couple other folks that we will have a power shortage if the AI runs like that oh we'll have a shortage of actual power to homes to Data Centers we're going to need much more power because these things run hot yes and also we don't really have like transistors and Transformers to be able to handle the cluster of the GPU if we keep the current Pace m uh so so a lot of basic infrastructure to to look at but for us you know for at least now you now this will get people interested in nuclear again if we start having uh an energy crisis because of so many h100s and then eventually 200s whatever being deployed so people are going to say you know what we just need to start building some nuclear reactors next to these data centers ex and putting in massive solar farms and really having much more much cheaper energy right um which you know people haven't had to think about it all that much because we we've been able to keep up but if all of a sudden we can't solve cancer because we don't have enough energy we have enough chips to cure cancer yeah we have the software we have the chips we don't have enough energy to put at this because a custom medicine or something you know for me is how far away if you're a consumer how far away from the actual problem right if if you're very very far away you don't you don't care but but if you're if you're next next to it and then and then all of a sudden become a problem so so I think you know like I said we are we don't know whether this is the the correct phone Factor you know we don't know but we know this is the lowest risk we can pull off and and we know the lamb is most important thing yeah I mean the lamb is like a sniper shot you can just very easily get accomplish the task and you know when we started in the industry I remember in the 90s there was a company called General magic oh yeah and they were making a device that had agents and you would tell agent I want to fly to Paris and I'm in it would know you're in New York and it would go out try to find tickets for you go to uh literally go to a human yeah uh um travel agent and then get try and get the results back and then put them into some format that you could say okay I like that itinerary um and it now here we are uh 2005 2015 2025 yeah it took 30 years basically funny work funny enough General magic was a internal Apple project that Apple don't really understand and spin it off and their logo is a rabbit in a hat ah right I remember that and the rabbit would pop its head out in the little animation this was I remember Sony made the first actual hardware for General magic and it was some early iteration of the pdas and stuff yeah yeah personal digital umist assistance they were I I remember when the Palm came out in New York right right around 97 98 99 people had a starac phone and they would a pal you take these two devices out and you learned Palm script you learned how to do script on the touchcreen and the number one application wasn't sending money that was like what Elon and Peter chill were going to do um or Peter chill was going to do with PayPal it was to send a business card and then what's the latest feature of iPhone 15 is tapping the two phones together to send a business card yeah it's hilarious yeah so that's that's actually really really good intake because I deeply believe that you know human are never inventing new demands we have certain category of Demands right we want to want to rest well we want to eat well and drink well and be entertained and you know be motivated and start working but technology is not Reinventing new Dems technology is solving the same problem over and over again but each generation in a much more intuitive way ah yes and that's exactly what you said with pal sending that scripts to name card versus now tap to air drop it's same thing it's just much more intuitive and and Hardware is very interesting because if if if the hardware is intuitive enough then the phone Factor stays for a very very long time you never I never heard another 200,000 companies every year claiming to make a better Hammer no why because it's intuitive enough it it only take it only takes your force and obey the physic CLW that's it intutive like that but then if you think about computers and mobile devices there's long there's long long way to go long way to go yeah long way to go and and that's why we decided to take a little step forward we're like okay I understand you guys are skeptical about this and that but we have to try we have to do this at least you know like there's something about the instant nature of this that I think you know if you save people I've I've always felt when I look at startups to invest in yeah is this startup saving people time yeah is it saving people money or is it entertaining them in some way right right and so if you look at your device it's going to save people time and time is the equivalent of money for some people some people have more money than time some people have more time than money yeah but generally speaking I think yours is a time-saving device and then eventually will it be entertaining um it could be sure um there could be entertainment services on it but just saving people time yeah and letting them get back to their kids uh or to dinner or whatever and get off their device yeah that is extraordinary and so I think your your recognition that the latency has to change yeah massively was what Sergey Marissa uh and Larry were obsessed with that Google is how to get it faster faster faster lower the milliseconds people will search more if they made the search results faster and and I think people will use AI more right if you you know can get that uh you know yeah um I can probably get interaction lower I can probably get it um by the time you have your test device yeah it's gonna be amazing I mean just the I can tell you right now the ability to order food faster I I do the same order for my family for the sushi rolls that we get those like hand rolls um if I could just reorder that roll boom and the the faster I can do it man it would be amazing all right listen Jesse you're awesome when this thing launches like in three months will you come on again um of course yeah all right here we go and maybe we'll do it in person maybe we'll do some oh you know what when you when you're ready to launch it save a couple of demos like maybe three and we'll do live yeah live do live dios why not yeah no no no but we'll do it live in person I'll get a theater and we can just sit there and talk and you show a couple of live things demo or die style all right listen uh if you want to learn more or if you want to uh go work with Jesse and do crazy awesome rad stuff and cool like Steve Jobs did how can people find out about your job openings oh uh simple we have a career page uh we're continuously updating in the roles but uh just feel free to reach out to me via Twitter or feel free to send a contact at rabbit. te email just just go to our website drop up the email we are and website is rabbit. yeah rabbit. Tech and uh make sure to check on the research page for the detailed breakdown of lamb how it works yes you have a really cool page about how lamb works yeah so uh yeah just send us an email we we we'll get it there uh I mean we what are you hiring for what what positions are like the hardest yeah so uh it's it's it's basically we need to expand uh most of the product related roles in every aspect because we're trying to catch up with the demand and there's a lot of things that we're trying to uh you know uh build for the future and more importantly we we want to set up a lamb research like small lamb research team uh just working for the future iterations of lamb um are you in person now you're in person in Santa Monica trying to get people in an office uh yeah but uh you know if you're good it can be flexible but F yeah but you these will'll be really good if you're really good flexible but if you're very good let me tell you something living in Santa Monica there's a lot of great restaurants it's incredible lifestyle man just move and and hang out with Jesse and Santa Monica it's one great plac my goal is to to to raise more money so that we can afford you guys but yeah that's my you'll be fun I think you'll be fun all right everybody we'll see you next time when this week starts bye-bye

Channel: This Week in Startups

Views: 74,167

Keywords: startups, twist, jason calacanis, public markets, private markets, venture capital, investing, learn, tech, technology, tech reviews, product reviews, gadgets, big tech, monopoly, finance, angel investing, founder, demos, generative ai, artificial intelligence, b2b, b2c, apple, vc

Id: X-MNgciL5hw

Length: 89min 50sec (5390 seconds)

Published: Wed Jan 24 2024