Andrew Ross Sorkin and his guests the founder and CEO of Nvidia. Jensen Wang. Wang Wang. Welcome back. Everybody. Jensen is here. Of course the CEO of Nvidia as I mentioned at the top of the day. This is the clear winner of every winter. In the world in of In artificial intelligence thus far his company Powers everything from open a.i. Google's programs matter what Earl Frenemies in some ways. We'll talk about it. He founded the company back in 1993 over breakfast at Denny's with two friends since then as CEO. He's LED Nvidia to become the world's most valuable Semiconductor Company and Via stock has been on a tear up two hundred and forty percent this year reaching dollar. 240 Market cap and we are so grateful to have you here today market as we all try to make sense of what is happening in the world of AI and I think it's so many ways you saw this first and so I'm hoping to start with this and I said you power what open a.i. And chat GPT has been we've all been reading about open a.i. And all of the travails inside that that company and nonprofit and we maybe talk about some of the governance issues there as well. But you delivered I think this is this is back. I don't know what year we're talking about now, but you delivered the first box the first chips to Elon Musk who was one of the founders of open AI only a couple of years ago. What did you what happened? Well, I delivered to him the first AI supercomputer the world ever made. It took us five years to make it is called a dgx. It's everywhere in the world today people think that we build gpus but this GPU is is 70 pounds 35 thousand Parts out of the 35 thousand eight of those chips come from tsmc. It is so heavy in new robots to build it. It's like an electric car. It consumes 10,000 amps it It we sell it for two hundred fifty thousand dollars it it's a super computer. So it takes another super computer to test. This is a computer first of its kind and we started working on it in 2012 took me five years to build it at first I built it for our own engineers and I spoke about it at one of our conferences and Elon saw it. He goes. I want one of those and and he said he And and told me about open a And i I'd also knew Peter Beal who was a Berkeley Professor. He was one of the early people at opening II and Ilya sutskever. He I met him during the Alex net days five years earlier. He's involved in all the drama that we've been reading about. And so anyways, I delivered the world's first AI supercomputer to open a eye on that day and and people took pictures of it and so on the internet somewhere. Yeah. Um when you did that and you said you didn't do it originally for him. What was it though that you saw at that point five years before you even delivered it in 2012 when this Hall first started first happened Alex net did something remarkable. Here's a here's a neural network. It's a it's a it's a software program where the way you programmed it was to show it the results that you wanted. Which is the backwards which of most Which programs up to then, you know programs up to them were where Engineers would sit down and you would write software and then you would test it to see if it produced the outputs you wanted but here you showed it examples and you you you taught it what outputs you wanted what helped us to expect and so when we first saw the results of it Alex net the results were so spectacular that Alex kraszewski and and Ilya sutskever and of course Geoffrey Hinton they achieved results that Results of computer results vision Results recognition that that no no computer vision expert where it was able to achieve before that. And so so the first the first observation was is how remarkable was but then then we were we were fortunate have taken a step back and ask ourselves. What is the implication of this to the future of computers? And and we drew the right conclusions that that this was going to change the way Computing was going to be done. This was going to change. Change the way software was going to be written. And this was going to change the type of applications. We could write write. Did you get to work? Was there any part of you did you write that was scared when all this happened you just mentioned to name's George Hamilton Hinton as well. You also mentioned Elia and and those are names by the way, if you've been following If the way. what's happening, if the way, If the way. they have been very outspoken about the dangers of AI very, well. I want to get into actually what you think happened at open a.i. In the past couple weeks, but it may very well be that there may have been a new Step change in terms of terms in change Step been a new there may have that be well very of what this technology. LG was but was there ever a part of you when you're seeing this all happen say oh my goodness. I don't know. We're on the cusp of a revolution in a great way. But this is dangerous. What I would say, I would say 12 years. Nobody expected the results where we get and I think anybody who would have would have said so back then would have over-exaggerated, you know, our understanding of the of the the rate of progress. There's no question that the rate of progress is high. And what we what we and realized today, is that that of course And of and course course, what we can do today with with these models and intelligence are related, but not the same, you know, we're very good at perception today and we're very good at those One-Shot knee-jerk reaction. I recognize that that's a dog. I can I can finish that sentence but there's a whole bunch of things that we can't do yet. do can't we things that of bunch whole a there's but sentence that We can't reason yet, you know this multi-step. Meaning that humans are very good at a I can't do and how far away do you think we are from that? Well, we'll see. We'll see I think that just about everybody's working on it and and all the researchers are working on it. Everybody's working on it. We're trying to figure out you know, how do you take a goal break it down into a whole bunch of steps and created the sijin tree and then walk down the decision tree to figure out you know, which one of the paths leads to the most optimal answer. This is this is a how we reason through things how we iterate through Problem today, as you know, what you're making bets now in terms of of technology that you have to build an investment. You have to make yeah on where we're going to be five years from now ten years ten years ago, right? So, you know people talk about a GI. Yeah, right right artificial AGI. Yeah, artificial general intelligence. Yeah. Do you think in 10 years from now? We are there. Bye depending on how you define it. I think the answer is yes. And so the question is what is a gi8 if we defined a GI as a piece of software a computer that can take a whole bunch of tests and these tests reflect tests, basic intelligence tests and and by achieving by by by completing those tests those completing by achieving by and intelligence basic deliver results that are fairly fairly competitive to a Normal human, I would I would say that within the next five years. You're going to see a obviously a eyes that can that can achieve those tests and designed the chips that you're making right now. Yeah. Well, you need to have the same staff that designs them. In fact, none of our chips are possible today without a i Literally, the H1 hundreds were shipping today was designed with the assistance of a whole lot of a eyes. Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to cram so many transistors on a chip or optimize the algorithms to the level that we have and you know software can't be written without a i chips can be designed without a i nothing can yeah, nothing's possible. We started by talking about open a.i. And everybody's Ai and yeah. Nothing's possible. focused on that. What did you make? What happened? The ousting of Sam Altman alternative Sam Altman the all of it. Yeah. Well, first of all, I'm happy that they're settled and I hope they're settled is a really great team and and they're doing important work and they've achieved great results and I'm just really happy that they're settled, you know, also it also bring in brings to mind the importance of corporate governance. There's a invidious here 30 years after our founding we've gone through a lot of adversity if we didn't set up our company properly, who knows what would have been who knows what would have done and so I think when you're when you're architecting an industry, you know, you want to apply some of that some that of that some of some apply you want to industry wisdom to architecting a company Yeah, and and so I'm really proud of him videos corporate governance by the way in and if not for the architecture that we establish and I was 29 years old and you'd be kind of your a for-profit company though. What's so interesting I think about this sort of dynamic is that that is a firm that is effectively operated from a governance perspective as a not-for-profit and one of the reasons that they set it up that way was because they did think it was dangerous Elon Musk said it was dangerous at the beginning Celia said, it was dangerous. And so the question is in the sort of multitude of these different businesses that are in a I do you think you do need these not-for-profits? Do you think that that the incentive system is just fundamentally off. And should be a for-profit. I mean a lot of people now think the capitalist have taken over. Well Regulators are not for profit and we should regulate these first of all just take a step back and think about what a i is AI is an autonomous system. It's an autonomous system. That's more sophistication autonomous information system. We have a lot of autonomous systems today self-driving cars in some in factories within factories already exists robots are autonomous in factories with planes are autonomous. Autopilot self Landing all of those capabilities exist. We we ought to make sure that we applied the first principles of autonomous systems in the same way. We have to design a properly tested properly stress test the properly monitor it there's Inside Out safety. There's outside in safety the FAA flight Air Traffic Control redundancy Traffic Control Air flight FAA the safety in outside redundancy diversity. There's a whole bunch of different systems that we have to put in. Place for autonomous systems there's a place for Place for lot of place for Industries to learn from at the beginning of those I mentioned there's sort of a frenemy situation going on with a lot of companies that use your chips. They're desperate for your chips. They they want your gpus and at the same time. They're also trying to build their own frankly. I'm curious that you've seen it all how you would stack rank the success of the various companies that are in this AI space. We have somebody from Google deepmind's here today their CEO. Well, I'm curious where you think open a.i. Ranks in that there's inflection. Amazon is trying to play and I'm not going to rank my friends, you know, but you but you have a sense of and I part of the question that I want to but I'm not going to do it. I'm just kidding, kidding but there is a question about harshly whether all of these things converge, uh-huh meeting know that that they all it just this all become some kind of commoditized no business. No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I think what's going to happen is we're going to have We're going to we're have off-the-shelf a eyes and these off-the-shelf apis are going to be really really good at solving a lot of problems. But but you're going to have companies in healthcare going to have supervised, you know, super tuned a eyes that take these off the shelf a eyes and make them super good at drug Discovery or super good at chip design and we just use our company. For example, the vast majority of our company's value company's our of majority vast the example, For company. our is in the data and the intelligence and the know know how to craft Know how that's inside our company and know how none of that data Know how is out on the internet. You can't get an AI to go learn it. And so I've got to take a really smart AI which is what we do. We build a smart Ai and then we teach it how to design chips. We teach you how to write software you teach it how to do drug Discovery. You'll teach it how to do you know Radiology. Let me ask you a geopolitical question. We're gonna hear from the president Taiwan just after this and there is a big debate as you know, about chip Independence the big investment that we're making in, To Manufactured here in the United States Two whether we should be exporting certain types of chips to China. Where are we on the Journey of being chip independent if you will and do you think that that is a worthy goal? We are we are somewhere between a decade we We two decades away from we from supply chain Independence Independence. As I mentioned earlier. Our systems comes 35,000 parts and eight of them come from tsmc and the supply chain when you think through are in Taiwan course, there are a lot of in Taiwan there all over the world but supply chain Independence is going to be really challenging. Yeah, we should try it. We should Endeavour it. I mean we should absolutely go down the Journey of it, but total independence But of it. but of it, of But of it. supply chain is not a real practical thing for for a decade or took a one of the other things that's happening as you know, so well is that the u.s. Government has effectively told you you need to throttle the speed of the chips that you are exporting to China. Yeah. This is having impact. On the business itself, but I'm curious how you think about that also geopolitically as a business the National Security concerns Jamie dimon. We were talking earlier about you know, what companies you should do business with should you do business with people in China or not, given all of the concerns that people have well on first principles were a company that was built for business. And so we try to do business with everybody we can on the other hand on the other hand our national security matters and our national competitiveness competitiveness. Matters somewhere between matters Matters between matters the the between that makes sense and so And sense. our and sense And sense. country, of course once our Industries to to on the one hand be successful right lead the world invent amazing technology have technology in dependence on the one hand and and be the leader of the world in technology on the one hand on the other hand. We need to make sure that we ensure our national security our regulations provide for that the most critical that technology critical most that the for regulations provide our Build the Leading Edge of it is not made available to China. And so what we have to do a new regulation just came out one that came out a year ago one just came out this year. And so we have to we have to come up with new chips that comply with the regulation. And once we comply with the regulation will go back to Market and and do the best. Do you think a regulation is a good idea because I have I have heard you say that you think potentially by throttling these chips. We are just hiring and creating competitors in places like China that you can't control. That's what you don't look they're always unintended consequences everything that we do in complicated systems. If we want to want to limit them from access to technology like nvidia's maybe it doesn't really they find a way to get it or they find a way to inspire their local industry. There's some 50 companies are being built in China that that are going to go provide this technology. So we you know, know, it's you we So technology. this provide go going to are it's it's a it's a complicated thing. And so what can you do? Well, you could you can make your own choices, but the the other thing that's happened literally in the past couple months now is Huawei came out with a new phone. Yeah, and it surprised everybody in terms of the chips in that phone in terms of being a 7 nanometre chip. There was a view that China was never going to get there. We were we had this sort of real Real opportunity ahead of them by many years. Were you surprised by that? The the The rumors of it and in the market has been around for a long time. And so was it where we surprised? I don't think so. I don't think anybody in the industry was really surprised. And and is it possible to take something that that said 16 nanometer and Shrink at the seven? You know, these are just numbers. Is it really 7 did they shrink it down to something that was sufficiently good that you can make a phone from? Yeah, I think so. And and so so I think it you know, there's no magic in these numbers as you know, it's just seven the number but the question is what is our lead over them. Do you think in semiconductors? Yeah in semiconductors, you know call it call it a decade, you know, you could decide yeah and call it a decade, but I could you take the decade old technology and just squeeze The Living Daylights out of it until it produces something that's kind of like something from five years ago. Yeah, probably and so so I think there's a lot of in a lot of a lot of clever Engineers all over the world and they're trying to you know, get the most out of me ask you a different company that they have there's gonna be gold asml in the Netherlands. That's basically responsible for every chip that everybody makes some people might call them a monopoly. How powerful are they in all of this? And should it be we be worried about that power? Well, a lot of people depend on them to build the instrument and they do build very very good instruments. And the technology is very complicated. It took a long time for them to build it. There's no reason why they don't want to provide it to the world. And so I'm not so I'm not sure what the question is, but but I'm not concerned. I didn't wake But is. up but is, this morning But is. concerned about the SML. I think they're an excellent provider and and they're they're they're motivated this apply to us and And this apply to us. and this apply to us And this apply to us. you know, so I think everybody's everybody's incentives are aligned when I asked you a management question because it's just fascinating given the success of this of this company. You constantly say even at this point in the Ballgame you say I do everything I can not to go. Out of business. I do everything I can not to fail that that is like a mantra inside the company even at this point. What is that about? What is that about? I think I think when you when you build a company from the ground up and you've you experienced real real adversity, and and you really really experienced nearly going out of business several times that that feeling stays with you. I wake up every morning and in you know, some condition of concern and and I don't I don't wake up proud and confident I wake up. Worried and concerned about you know, and so it just depends on which side of the bed you get out on. This is the Andy Grove only the paranoid survive. Well, I think paranoia needs needs therapy. I don't I don't think I don't think people are trying to put me out of business. I probably know they're trying to and so so I that's different. And so so I I live in this condition where where we're partly partly partly desperate part. Lee, you know partly partly aspirational and uh, let me ask you then about this you said this to the New Yorker and I found it fascinating again goes to this idea of failure or worries about failure, but you said this and I was like news you can this is a selfish question. You said I find that I think best when I'm under adversity and then you said my heart rate actually goes down. When I'm under adversity, my heart rate goes up by a lot. Uh-huh. Oh my let's see. Well, I think I think during adversity you're more focused and when you're more focused you could you perform better and I like I like, you know know, the last last five minutes before before something you're more focused. And so, you know, I like to live in that state where we're we're about to perish about we're we're where state that live in to like I to perish and Everything you know, everything you know, and so so I enjoy that condition and Everything you know, everything you know, and I do my best work in that condition and I you know, I like going home and telling condition, my condition wife condition, I saved the company today and and maybe maybe it wasn't true. But but I like to think so and so another question we have a lot of Business Leaders and CEOs here and I think they're going to be surprised to hear this you have 40 direct reports. So at the so at the So at the company so at the 50 director 50 direct Reports, most people say I don't know if we have any consultants in the room, they'd the room, in consultants have any we know if don't I say they'd say, you know, what half a dozen maybe 10, that should be the limit. What's your what's your philosophy or Theory here? Well, the people that report to the CEO should require the least amount of pampering. And so I don't think they need life advice. I don't think they need career guidance. They should be at the top of their game incredibly good at their craft their craft. And unless they need my personal help, you know, they should require very little management. And so so I think that one the more the more direct reports of CEO has the less layers are in the company and so Co so I it allows us to keep information fluid allows us to make sure that that everyone is empowered by Make sure information make sure Make sure and our company that you know just performs better because you know, everybody is aligned you know you know, everybody's informed of what's going on. I want to open up to questions in just a moment. So, please do raise your hand so I can find you but I want to ask you this you did a podcast recently find you, find you and there are a lot of headlines about it. And you said during the podcast if you could do it all over again, like if you could start inventing again, invading again, yeah, you wouldn't. No, what do you what did you mean? Why I mean you've done this amazing thing? Yeah, you're worth forty billion dollars personally. That wasn't what I meant. First of all, you know, I think it would be disingenuous. If I said that that it wasn't quote worth it. I enjoy a lot of good things in life. I've got a great family. We built a great company. All of that is worth it. That wasn't what I meant. What I meant was if people realized how hard something is and if I were to realize how hard it was how many times we're going to fail how the original business plan had no, hope of succeeding. that that That that almost the That early Founders that we built the whole company with we had to completely relearn just about everything. We had to know if I would have known we everything all of the things that We everything. we everything I had to know in order to be a CEO everything that we had to solve in order to be where we are that mountain of work that melon of you know challenges you know, the mountain of adversity and setback and some amount of humiliation and a lot of embarrassment. If you want if you want to If you want mount piled all if you want of that on in 1993 in you know on the table of a 29 year old, I don't think I would have done it. I would you know, I would have said there's no way I would know all this. There's no way I could learn all this. There's no way we can overcome all this. There's no way you know, this is a game plan that that's not going to work. And so that's what I meant that I think I think the ignorance of enterpreneurs this attitude that and I try to do to keep that today, which is ask yourself. How hard could it be you know you approach life with this attitude of how hard could it be they could do it I could do it that attitude is completely helpful, but it's also completely wrong. It's very helpful because it gives you courage but it's wrong because it is way harder than you think. Yes, and and the amount of skill that is necessary to amount of knowledge as a sentence that's necessary. You know, I think it's one of those teenager attitudes and and I think I think we I try to keep that in the company that teenage attitude how hard can something can scan something be, you know gives you courage gives you confidence. Let's I too seek in one question or two if we could I know I Ron Conway had a question last time for at a different moment. I know if he's still in the room. I felt like I should give him an opportunity but I see Gary Lauder there. Hey, Gary. So so there are So a lot of startups so and not some non startups doing AI chips optimized for LMS. Can you talk about and they claim to be dramatically more effective at energy efficient than now gpus. Can you talk about what you're planning on these roads? Yeah. First of all, this is one of the great observations that we made in a we realized that that deep learning and AI wasn't was not a chip problem. It's a reinvention of shooting problem everything from how the computer works how computer software Everything everything works the type of software that was going to write the way that we write it the way we develop software today using AI creating a i that method of software is fundamentally different than the way we did it before. So every aspect of computing is is changed. And in fact, one of the things that people don't realize is the vast majority of computing today. today is a retrieval model meaning just all you have to ask Self what happens when you touch your phone self what someone like, you know, Self what there's some electrons go to a data center somewhere retrieves the file and brings it back to you in the future. The vast majority of computing is going to be retrieval plus generation. And so the way that Computing is done is fundamentally changed now, we have we observe that and realize that about a decade and a half ago. I think a lot of people are still trying to sort that out. It is the reason why you know, people say, oh, we're practically the only P'nay doing it. It's probably because we're the only company that got it and people are still trying to get it. You can't you can't solve this new way of doing Computing by just designing a chip every aspect of the computer has fundamentally changed and so everything from networking to the switching to the way the computers are designed to the chips and self all of the software that sits on top of it in the methodology that pulls it all together. It's It's a big deal because it's a complete reinvention of the computer industry. And now we have a trillion dollars with the data centers in the world. All of that is going to give retooled. That's the amazing thing. We've got we're in the beginning of a brand new generation of computing. It hasn't been reinvented in 60 years. This is the this is why such a big deal it's hard for people to wrap their head around it. But that's that's the that was the great observation that we made is it includes a trip, but it's not about that ship Jensen Wong everybody. Thank you very very much. long everybody. Thanks everybody.
