Queen Rania Al Abdullah of Jordan on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" | full interview

your majesty thank you for making time for us thank you it's a pleasure to be here Jordan has two field hospitals inside of Gaza Jordan is helping to get Aid into the strip the UN estimates that at least 15,000 children have been killed since this War began in October what is the impact in the region well look first of all um Gaza in the last 7 months has has become unrecognizable uh cities have turned into Wasteland growing happy children have been reduced to skin and bone 2.3 million people in a short in a small area have been going through hell every single day 1.7 million of them have been displaced and not just once some of them several times and they're currently living in conditions that are unimaginable in makeshift shelters and Tents on the street uh UNICEF was hearing from teenage girls saying that they would rather be killed than live under these conditions and so many have been killed almost 35,000 people 17 % of them women and children as you mentioned almost 15,000 children Gaza has the highest unfortunately and sadly the highest uh cohort of child amputees and every couple of days we're losing children to starvation we in the Arab world have been seeing this war live streamed every single day and it has become Central to our lives and it's been quite devastating and the impact has been obviously people are so traumatized by what they're seeing every day we were traumatized by October 7th but then this war we feel is not you know Israel is is saying that this war is a defensive War obviously was instigated by October 7th but the way it's being fought is not in defensive way you know 60% of homes have been uh destroyed 80% of schools and Health Care Centers have been destroyed are we to believe that there were Hamas operatives in each one of those you know so so you know the the impact has been very very big on us and I think people I'm not sure if your viewers know this but people view the us as being party to this war because you know Israeli officials say that without a US support they couldn't launch this war you know you you turn off the tap and the weapons dry out so and so there's been anger in our part of the world not at just what what's happening but at the world's reaction when we see um these violations human rights violations and International law violations and we're watching the world letting it happen when October 7th happened the world rightfully condemned it and took strong action and strong positions we are outraged that this the same is not happening when when Palestinians are getting killed and so there is the sense of the selective application of humanitarian law in a sense of unfairness a sense of Our Lives don't matter as much and you know this is something I think that's creating a certainly causing uh a great loss of credibility to the US but also causing us to rethink our uh our view of the world order you know as as cruel and and and ugly as the war in Gaza is the state of our rules based World Order is looking exponentially worse people are looking at Gaza as reflection of the rest of the world where you know the rules don't matter where international law doesn't matter where un resolutions can be ignored and I think that that's a very very dangerous uh precedent because actions like these they're not only a betrayal for the people of Gaza but they're actually a betrayal of the safeguards that are meant to keep us all safe you said people back home see the United States as complicit in what's happening they see it as an enabler you know uh so clearly the US is the country that has most leverage over the us over Israel and um like I said you know it is the the biggest allly and biggest supporter and the Arab world is getting the rest of the world actually is getting mixed messages so on the one hand the US is demanding that more Aid rightfully go back into Gaza at the same time they're they're denying that the starvation is intentional on the one hand they are outraged by the uh attacks on the a convoys but at the same time they're denying that Israel is violating International humanitarian law there's an expression of concern over civilian deaths but at the same time there's a provision of offensive weapons uh to is Israel that are used against Palestinians so in a sense you know you when you try so hard to thread the needle you can risk dropping the ball you can risk letting your values and principles unravel and and that has a a deep impact so for example even when the US allowed the UN Security Council resolution on the ceasefire to pass the next day there is announcement saying that it's not it's not legally binding un resolutions are absolutely legally binding and these legal Frameworks are there to ensure that all countries adhere to a standard of conduct they're either applicable to everyone or they're not either everyone is accountable or no one is so the next time a country Breaks the Rules you know and the US comes and tries to apply more Authority those countries are going to say well you made an exception here so why apply to us so I think people um you know we are seeing Israel falling short of a moral standard after moral stand legal standard after legal standard in the world is refusing to act so I think Gaza now is like a microcosm of our New World Disorder of the breakdown of international Norms of the return of Might is right and I think that's very dangerous not just for our region but for the entire world well you know recently President Biden just about a month ago uh warned prime minister Netanyahu that US policy would change if Israel's behavior and conduct in this war didn't change do you believe the US is starting to use the leverage you say it has well look there's definitely been a change in tone and language and you're right the president has been warning and has been trying very hard to persuade Netanyahu for example to not enter Rafa but we've seen time and again Israeli officials not heeding the warnings or counsel or advice of allies so I think it's time that the International Community including the US really used its political leverage to compel is Israel to end the war and to let Aid in uh how and it's and it's by taking measures right so again it's by standing up for international law saying for example the building of illegal settlements is is wrong and it has to stop it's by saying that you know we are not going to provide you with offensive weapons it's by saying um we're not going to continue to use our veto to not hold Israel account accountable when it breaks the law diplomatic pressure is also very very important so there are many tools that the US has in order to compel Israel to do the right thing and I think for the sake of our world the us maybe Israel's most closest Ally but a good friend holds a friend accountable you don't give them a card blanch when they're not doing the right thing and I think it does Israel a great disservice when we don't hold it accountable because it creates a culture of impunity and that has been the situation for decades where they feel that they can or they can be the exception to every International law and standard either you're part of the International Community and you abide by the rules or you're a pariah State that's not that's made an exception to to every rule so so I think that if you care about your ally you will actually take action to set them and that that would be for Israel's best interest in the long term in the beginning of this war you were outspoken about the humanitarian concerns very early on and you are the queen of Jordan but you're also Palestinian you argued people need to understand that Palestinian mothers love their children just as much as Israeli mothers why do you feel like that needed to be said well because you know for decades the dehumanization of Palestinians has been an intentional approach that Israel adopted in order to numb people to Palestinian suffering you know um it's actually quite surprising to see just how deep the undercurrents of dehumanization ations run um Israelis have pretty much you know Arabs are generally accused of teaching hate and Palestinians as well but it's Israelis have actually walled Palestinians out of sight and out of mind kind of reduced them to nameless faceless security threats that you have to defend yourself against they don't learn about Palestinians they never introduced to them as real people any attempts to bring Palestinian stories into books are are barred H so so this sense of and and and we actually saw that you know among the people blocking Aid into Palestinians were young teenagers I can't understand how anybody could be so indifferent to human suffering you're talking now about some of the protests that are trying to interrupt the shipment of Aid into G I'm talkinging about a deep culture an omnipresent um perspective about Palestinians that says that Palestinians are subhuman that they are violent because of something intrinsic in them it's something in their nature it's it's it's not because uh there is violence inflicted on them and so when you reduce people to a violent uh people who are who are different to us so they're not moral like us so therefore it's okay to inflict uh pain and suffering on them because they don't feel it the same way we do it allows people to do bad things that's that's the mental loophole of dehumanization it allows you to justify the unjustified to do bad things and still see yourself as a good person and we're seeing that happen in the case of Palestinians they they they don't feel the Palestinians that's why I said that mothers love their children the same way because you know it allows you to do bad things and not really have a moral dilemma with it and that's what H what's happening but you know dehumanization works both ways because when you lose your ability to empathize towards the other side you become hardened yourself it degrades your own um your own humanity and we're seeing this happening in Israeli Society where they're become so hardened and I just want to urge people to to understand that this narrative this propaganda that's been fed this anti- Palestinian racism that Palestinians do not want peace that Palestinians only understand the language of violence and force that is incorrect to see Hamas as representing Palestinian people you're saying is wrong absolutely wrong and also just to just to point out that most of the people alive in Gaza today were not alive when Hamas was elected they were either CH they were not born or they were children at the time so absolutely Hamas does not represent the majority of uh of Palestinians and if Palestinians hate Israelis it is not because of their religion or their identity it's because of the fact that they've only interacted with them as enforcers of a military State they have only known them through their chck checkpoints and bullets and guns it's not something that's inherently in them against Jewish people in fact I always try to remind people that you know we have coexisted um um Christians Muslims and Jewish people for the longest time that's where the three monotheistic religions were born and uh prior to the birth of Zionism the Muslim majority in Palestine lived in complete friendship and tolerance with the with the Jewish minority there was never an issue of anti-Semitism there well you know historians will argue anti-Semitism has been present throughout history right and it is hard for people to hear some of what you are saying and not react in that way where they hear a characterization of criticism of the Israeli government or the Israeli military and see where you're separating from Jewish people a lot of people don't hear a difference anti-Semitism is absolutely present and it's and it's been on the rise it's been on the Surge and it is the worst kind of bigotry it is pure hatred and I always say that Muslims had to be have to be at the Forefront of fighting anti-Semitism because islamophobia is the other side of the same disease and it's also on the rise Judaism is a a religion of Peace it is the the first of the three monotheistic religions and as Muslims you know we it was it was Judaism Christianity and Islam we all believe in the same God and the issue is when you try to conflate anti-israeli policy with anti-Semitism right anti-Semitism is when you persecute somebody or you uh discriminate against somebody based on their Jewish identity Israel is a state it has political policy political parties so you can criticize the state of Israel but that's not necessarily anti-Semitism so when people stand up and speak against the war in Gaza when they're talking about the um speak against the Collective punishment when you deprive people of food as a weapon of War when uh when entire population is displaced when there's indiscriminate bombing that is not anti-Semitism that is speaking against Israeli policy and I think it would be wrong to hold the Jewish Community responsible for the actions of the or the policies of Israel and many Jewish people absolutely reject this this conflation they they they want to protect their Jewish identity and say that they the Jewish faith has existed U 3,000 years before the birth of the state of Israel so it it predates the state of Israel and and uh to conflate the religious aspect with the politics I don't think serves anybody and it certainly doesn't bring us closer to peace well let me ask you about that because you know there protest at colleges across the United States here in New York other cities in solidarity with pal Ians in Gaza but there is also this perception among some students that they are unsafe because they are for example Jewish students what do you think of the protest and are you surprised to see Young Americans protesting like this first of all I think it's important to point out that Law and Order are Paramount for everybody and so it is important for students to abide by the rules of the campus to not disrupt classes to not disrupt other students exper College experience at the same time as I said there is a rise in anti-Semitism and it's wrong for any student to have to feel unsafe on campus that being said we need to emotions are running high and I think people are are are losing sight of what these these students are protesting for them the issue of Gaza and the Palestinian conflict is more about social justice they are standing up for human rights for international law for the principles that underpin international law they're standing up for their the future they're going to inherit so they're asking their universities to divest from an illegal occupation but at the same time and may maybe more importantly they are suggesting that there is more to the story than we have been told that there is that the narrative that we have been fed that that that Israel is the victim and the Palestinians are are violent people who deserve what's happening to them that that is not the entire story why do you think that's happening on college campuses why do you think young people feel this way well actually it's a lot of people feel this way but college campuses have always been the site of uh of activism uh you know young students are learning about these issues at that age you want to stand up you're more idealistic you want to stand up for values you believe in you're you're outraged when when things are not going right when when when what you're taught and what you believe should be the right thing isn't happening and so they're expressing their views but I think to uh to paint all these students and all these protests in a in a broad paintbrush and to vilify them uh as being you know Pro Hamas or Pro terrorism or anti-semitic I think that's inaccurate and I think it's it's somewhat patronizing to some of these students because a lot of people are saying well you know they don't even know what they're protesting they're just protesting for the sake of it a lot of them are well read thoughtful young individuals who know exactly what they're protesting they are protesting for Justice and um do you think it will change US foreign policy well I I I don't know if it will change US foreign policy it's certainly a Grassroots movement and an expression of a generation that feel that there is a contradiction between um the values and principles that they were taught that this country stands for and what's actually happening on the ground and again let's not forget that there are um a substantial number of Jewish students who are involved in these protests and the vast majority of these protests want to be peaceful they don't want to be destructive um and I think the most important thing is to have genuine engagement uh W with with these students to have an open debate to hear from them and and explain to them you a lot of times they're saying well these kids need education I think we need to go into this knowing that we need education as well so it's a give and take H and and we saw an example in Brown University where that kind of healthy debate ended up you know sort of calming things down and where was win-win situation so the more you use Force I think the more it inflames uh the situation how are young people in Jordan thinking about this right now I mean what is the sentiment in terms of the American unconditional support for the government of Israel I have to say in one word there's outrage you know there is outrage because you know for most young people even those who maybe were against uh American foreign policy or whatever or disagreed with it we always looked up to the US you know as a country of a democratic country with Democratic Values with application of law with freedom of speech uh with you know human rights Etc and as I said you know young people are now feeling extremely disillusioned uh how can this be happening while the US is allowing it to happen while the rest of the world is is allowing it to happen blatant disregard for international law and and and just you know when the US uh when when Israel says you know that we are not targeting civilians and then you look at the reality on the ground that we're seeing with our own two eyes and we're see and by the admission of uh some Israeli intelligence uh uh sources they were saying that they often attack their targets at night in the their homes with their families which has led to the deaths of thousands of women and children we have seen wild widely spread reports about Israel using uh AI systems to generate the largest number of targets prioritizing a quantity over quality and so the really by taking Humanity out of the equation in their calculus it's okay to flatten an entire neighborhood or kill an entire family to get one Target and so the whole principle of proportionality and distinction between uh between civilian and combatant has has been abandoned in this war and you know when when Israelis are telling us you know they're dying because Hamas is using them as human Shields well you know you have a place like like Gaza which is the one of the most densely populated places in the world being hit by an unprecedented number of dumb bombs which are untargeted unguided bombs or massive bombs which are the 2,000 lb bomb to put it perspective in fighting Isis the us only used one such bomb because it's known that it has a very high risk of killing civilians so you hit the most densely populated place on Earth with an unprecedented number of unguided bombs and massive bombs and we are supposed to believe that Israel is trying to avoid killing civilians it just doesn't it it doesn't add up you've had protests in Jordan yes outside Embassy and the like Amnesty International says Jordan security arrested at least 1500 people for protesting why are you concerned there is a threat to the stability of Jordan not at all I we know since the beginning of this war we've had thousands of people go out I think we've had about 1700 demonstrations of people going out advocating and and and standing out in solidarity with the Palestinian people and you know at the end of the day GE and most of these uh demonstrations have been friction free with the police and um but the end of the day Jordan is a country of Law and Order so as long as people AB are abiding by the law as I said with the demonstrations here then they are free to protest it's only when we see vandalism or attacks on public and private property that the security forces obviously have responsibility to come in step in but uh again Jordan has been probably at the Forefront of countries that have stood up um and spoken openly about out in defense of what's happening and you know in defense of Palestinians and and that's not just the leadership but that's also the people themselves the people the government and the leadership so we're we're on the same um page on this well the Director of National Intelligence in this country uh of real Haynes testified saying there will be a generational impact from the war in Gaza and that was also a gesture to Terror recruitment um How concerned are you that that is what may happen to some of these young people who you say are just inundated with images of what's Happening you know like I said it's it's it's it's not just the people who are on the extreme that that are being enraged by this it's people who are in the middle as well people who are westernized people who studied here people who who are suddenly just looking at the world and saying you know they're so disillusioned they're saying you know clear clearly there are different standards that humanitarian law is applied selectively and that our lives don't matter and that it's okay for for you know almost 15,000 children to be killed 19,000 to be orphaned it's it's okay for for you know the infrastructure to be literate it's okay to use to stop the delivery of Aid and food to an entire population that is collective punishment it's a war crime and it's happening and so the young people are saying you know I guess the West doesn't like us so so in my opinion this is probably one of the most radical large sorry largest recruitment event that we've seen in recent history because it's turned a lot of people away and it's making people feel like there's just no justice in this world and that is a very dangerous place to be that is what you were describing is what defense secretary Austin warned Israel about that you could have a tactical win and a strategic loss in the long term that's what I hear you saying that this will lead to more terror recruitment absolutely and I I again I do not we need to ask ourselves this the simple question is this war making Israel safer is it making our world safer you know I would argue after 35,000 K people dead after the obliteration of the civilian infrastructure in uh in in Gaza after the violations of so much after the rhetoric that we're hearing you know uh from Israeli officials calling Palestinians Human animals or saying when the Prime Minister says that Palestinians are children of Darkness that they only understand the rules of the Jungle you know when officials say we need to find a more effective way than death to inflict suffering on Palestinians how is that making Israel safer I mean you know how this is we need to create you peace is not about politics only it's about people it's about culture it's about state of mind it's about choosing tolerance over suspicion it's about choosing compromise and Reconciliation over the false promise of Victory and the politics inside of Israel has shifted so far to the right that it's become acceptable Israelis are surprised when the word word genocide is used because they cannot see Palestinians as anything but as a security threat that they deserve what's happening to them you know in a poll they're traumatized after October 7th absolutely traumatized I understand that and I understand that because of my own background that I would identify with the Palestinian side more and I because of that I challenge myself every single day to put myself in the shoes of an Israeli mother who is who has a child that's been taken as h or um or any young Israeli who has been taught and who's heard of the horrible persecution that the Jewish people have had to endure in Europe and uh and I try to empathize and see where they're coming from and absolutely you know we need the hostages to go home as soon as possible and we need the war to end as soon as possible so the Palestinians can go back to their homes if they have homes left so I understand that that what happened in October 7th was traumatic and devastating for Israeli Society but the reaction to it has not helped the situation you cannot just rely on your this viseral reaction of Retribution and revenge um because then you're just you know you're just going into the cycle of violence and just digging deeper in it and it's just going to keep getting worse the Israel could have retaliated through Surgical stri stes against Hamas but that's not what we're seeing today you know we are seeing a war that is not fought in a defensive way when you were at the White House in February uh President Biden mentioned that your husband King Abdullah and two of your children had participated in air drops in Gaza but you've referred to the air drops as just drops in an ocean what is needed at this point to reverse the famine right so you know those air drops were just acts of desperation and my husband said from day on they are inefficient they're costly and they do not begin to meet the needs of uh the people of Gaza but in in our calculus it was anything is better than nothing right and uh you know the hunger uh figures in the Gaza are unprecedented every single person in Gaza is hungry a quarter of the population is starving and uh when we saw that devastating attack on the world Central kitchens there was a lot of pressure Israel to allow more food and Aid into Gaza there's been a slight uptick but really at the end of the day there's they're not even close to meeting the needs of well who could distribute that if the war ended even would Jordan be able to come in and help withu this so so so so this is the thing you know I think what that strike did for example was stop eight make lots of agencies suspend their operations because they didn't feel safe working in Gaza and this after Israel has has uh has bombed flower Fields agricultural land fishing boats basically decimating gaza's ability to feed itself not just today but for years to come and so what is required is a permanent ceasefire that allows the hostages to go back home and people to go back to their homes we need to put pressure on Israel to open all access points and the land access is the most efficient way to deliver Aid at at scale we need to streamline the betting process which now is so um complicated and arbitrary and and you know they could find one thing in a truck that they're don't approve and the whole truck has to go back and uh and the last thing is that we need to allow Aid workers safe access within Gaza so that they can actually deliver the aid to the people that need it but if we do not flood uh Gaza with Aid soon then we are going to be facing a mass famine and I don't know how the world just is happy doing that it's just it's it's a major stain in our global Consciousness to see this happening in slow motion and not do something about it Jordan has had a peace treaty with Israel since 1994 if Israel goes into Southern Gaza into Raa as the Prime Minister says he intends to do will peace hold as you said we've had peace with Israel since 94 and Jordan always honors the commitments that signs up to in peace agreements we will always be on the side of peace and diplomacy but but diplomacy requires trust and a lot of that trust has been eroded over the years because of violations against people in razan the West Bank and uh and because of the undermining of the Jordanian custodianship of the Christian and Muslim sites in Jerusalem which are part of this agreement what do you mean by that what's happened uh well time and again uh you know we have violations against Christian sites and Muslim sites by Israeli troops who are not allowing people to go in who are arresting people who are not allowing people to pray we're seeing that happening all the time and so this is constantly undermining the hashmic role and custodianship of these holy sites and so um so there is an issue with that and when it when it comes to rafah the world you know there are ongoing daily strikes on ra as we speak but if there was to be a fullscale Invasion uh then you know the world has warned that there will be a blood blood bath and for the simple reason that half the population of Gaza is now Sheltering in we're talking about 50,000 people per square mile and since the beginning of this war there was they were pushed systematically further and further south RAF is the end of the line there's nowhere else for them to go there's only a six square mile piece of land that could considered safe zone so they have nowhere to go and um I don't know how Israel could go in surgically without causing a massive number of uh civilian deaths and and so I think the world really needs to compel Israel not to do it your majesty thank you for your time I'm being told we are out of time thank you

Channel: Face the Nation

Views: 94,788

Keywords: Jordan, Face The Nation, World

Id: -gbPxU_K8rA

Length: 31min 38sec (1898 seconds)

Published: Sun May 05 2024