Putin's Road to War: Eugene Robinson (interview)

so we're thinking of starting a movie with something recent that will get us to think about who vladimir putin is and it's a moment you mentioned as being like something out of the cayman mutiny which is this national security meeting that he has with his advisors vladimir putin i don't know if you've seen the whole footage but but this ornate room giant room exactly putin walks into the room by himself his top national security advisors are sort of arrayed um on the other side of the room um if you could describe that moment and and what you see in just the theatrics of what's going on inside this moment where they're on the march to war well it was a very very strange moment because you had uh putin um at 20 feet away or more from uh his entire national security team they're sitting in in an array like um like school children maybe or um supplicants of some kind and he and he goes in a row and they have to sort of get up and and and pledge their their fealty to this idea of of recognizing these two breakaway ukrainian republics uh in the east and it's a it's a very very strange moment i mean we see a lot of strange things in the age of covet and people distanced in a way that they wouldn't have been before but this this was like something different uh this looked more like uh something you would see in a royal court than than you would see in a in a modern government and and um and then the moment when the head of the foreign intelligence service um doesn't quite give the right answer and doesn't quite um say absolutely sir we should recognize these republics and and um at one point i believe putin says do you support this and he says i will support it and putin pushes again because that's not quite the same thing um he's saying i will support it if if you go ahead and do this thing uh that i have some doubts about uh clearly have some doubts about and pushes him and pushes him and pushes him until finally uh he he asks for a yes or no will you will you support it and then finally he says he says yes but to sort of dress down uh the head of of the equivalent of the cia in that manner something i have never seen uh before uh and to have it staged for public consumption in that way uh was just very strange and very troubling very troubling that um that a man with such power such absolute power is behaving in that way what does it say about where power is in russia what does it say about putin himself about how he sees himself about what he sees as his role in that moment it says that power in russia is vladimir putin that power is centralized in putin maybe in a way that it hasn't been centralized in any russian or soviet leader since stalin to me it it seems that he has more power than khrushchev had more power than brezhnev had because it's all centralized in him there's no suggestion that there as there was in the soviet days that that there was a polar bureau a central committee um some some group of apparatchiks who uh if um push really came to shove uh could could change the head of government there's no committee governing the the the actions of vladimir putin it's putin himself uh and everyone has to to pledge loyalty fealty to putin in order to to maintain any position any status in the government uh in an almost groveling way uh and and again we have not seen this uh since uh in russia since the days of stalin i mean it's an incredible amount of power you see in that moment but there's also a question of how does he understand what is going on these are also the people who are his advisors who are supposed to be telling him you know this is what the situation is on the ground what is it what does it reveal about putin's grasp of or or whether people are able to give him hard facts it certainly suggests to me that putin who after all has has effectively been in office for two decades uh who's who's very experienced at this who's had some success uh as uh as a as a leader um thinks he basically knows it all um and and one does not get the impression that he's particularly interested in the council of his aides and certainly not uh in opinions that run counter to his own um he to me seems um and i think his history bears this out he has said that the dismemberment of the soviet union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century i think he really believes that and i think he if he could would essentially reassemble the soviet empire the russian empire um and he's not i don't think he's crazy i don't think he's going to um tomorrow invade latvia or estonia other nato countries that used to be part of the soviet union but i'd but i believe he has a special thing about ukraine he seems to always have had this this almost mystical historical view of ukraine's uh importance to russia its relationship to russia and i think he is determined that ukraine not be an an independent western leaning nation i think he believes ukraine really is part of russia and he is determined to the extent that he can to reverse this geopolitical catastrophe that separated uh ukraine from russia is this putin's war is this russia's war you know we think of the iraq war and the bush administration certainly led us into that but there was months-long campaign to bring congress and others along and uh intelligence good or bad that they were putting out there in this war does it feel to you like this is really about vladimir putin as much as it is about russia as a country oh this this war to me feels very much uh about vladimir putin and and not really certainly not about the russian people i don't think it's about uh his his aides it's not about his government it's not about resources or anything like that it's it's it's not as if uh ukraine is a great source of of oil or something that russia um uh could use in that way i think it is putin's war very much now there was a build-up to it in uh certainly a build up that ukraine noticed um he noticed the the rhetoric coming out of the kremlin noticed um putin's uh threatening arms uh build up on the borders uh you know considerably before uh it it became an invasion force um and um you know the world wasn't paying attention arguably wasn't paying enough attention um but um but it but this is inspired and and carried out by i think vladimir putin and his own uh sense of his place in uh in russian history his role in russian history i think he wants to be a great historical figure uh for russia i think he wants to be in the line of even the terrible peter the great catherine the great lenin and stalin i think it's putin the great is what he wants to be uh and and and one of the deeds uh that putin the great will have accomplished is reuniting russia with ukraine what we're going to pick back up is in this 2015-2016 time period as putin he's gone through 2014 he's seized crimea he's encouraged war in the east of ukraine and uh the u.s has had sanctions but doesn't respond as strongly as some as some would want and he's contemplating what he's going to do next um he's about to uh launch interference in the american election in 2016. who do you think is putin at that moment you know if if you think about it um the stakes were really raised for putin um uh by what happened in ukraine you know first there was the um the the orange revolution and then the made on revolution and um uh these examples of people people power of people rising up uh to say no in the case of ukraine to a leader whose um who whose agenda was this this tight close relationship with russia and putin um and and obey essence to the russian system and and and to russia's desires um uh and the people rose up against uh that leader in ukraine and um so in in a sense um putin is she's certainly a man who thinks of his own self-interest and and there's a danger obviously with this close example in ukraine the brother country of russia to have people rise up like that it could happen in russia and i think putin is thinking defensively in those years and he's thinking how do i make sure that never happens in moscow how do i make sure that what happened in the main square of of kiev never happens in red square well what do you think looking back on him would make him think you know i'm going to take the risk to to launch a interference in an american election i'm going to be increasingly aggressive um well was that the turning point um well his interference in the american election certainly represented uh a ratcheting up of um of of his risk tolerance i guess um on the other hand um number one i think putin believes the west is inherently weak and can be pushed uh to a certain point and he and and he pushes to that point and if he doesn't get um a reaction uh he pushes some more and and um so he thought he could push that far uh and he saw a clear potential benefit in a change of u.s stance and policy toward russia and attitudes and um and and saw potentially um first it might have just been a chance to make mischief um and and and create trouble for um for for the u.s because if the uss is worried about its own um uh political um uh crisis that doesn't really have time to worry about russia and what russia might be doing um but i think he came to see the genuine opportunity to to change u.s policy policy to soften u.s resistance uh to his project of cementing uh his not just his own power but russia's power and russia's dominance over uh the former soviet union sphere and what must he take at the end of that where he's interfered in the election he's been called on it he watches you know whether it's the help of the russians or not he watches trump be elected there's some sanctions and there's they kick out some diplomats but what lesson does he take at the end of the day uh from he took this risk and he took this risk and and it paid off for him and so he must take the lesson uh that i can push further that i can i can do more and i mean look at the relationship he had with donald trump um who stood next to him in uh in helsinki and and essentially said uh i take vladimir putin's word over the word of the u.s intelligence community uh as a shocking thing for a u.s president to say and do so i think as long as trump was president i think putin felt uh he had a free hand essentially to pursue his own goals without much fear of us interference or pushback uh in any way not even rhetorical pushback the kind of of pushback that that you would expect and if the united states is um it sort of backs off um that i think creates space for a similar retreat i think is the word uh in europe and the united states really uh has to has to lead in this relationship and has historically um and without that sort of u.s leadership i think putin felt unbound um and and unconstrained and um i think the result is what we're seeing now inside of russia there's increasing crackdowns on protesters um he's jailing november he's amending the constitution to become president for life um what what's his approach inside russia during those years um leading up to now and what changed for him well you know in inside russia um uh i think the longer he was in power um and remember he's been there for 20 years i think he was fairly systematic at um at making sure he had no rivals uh in in power there's no figure uh around him who who challenges him or who who is who even looks like a successor to him um i was careful not to not to allow that i don't think he's particularly religious but i think he he came to to see himself as almost ordained to lead russia at this moment uh and to lead russia back to to greatness and if if that is your ordained mission uh if that is what you were supposed to do then um there aren't a lot of limits on uh the the means you can use to to achieve that goal right so jailing the opposition uh becomes not just an uh an act of self-interest in getting rid of a potential uh opponent but it becomes in the national interest because it is in the national interest for putin to lead russia back to greatness therefore it is in the national interest to jail uh navalny this is a national interest to um to poison and and and kill opponents and and um and drop them out of windows uh and and and the sort of thing that we've seen uh from putin it is in the national interest uh not to have uh the kind of dissent and expression of public um of public attitudes that we that we see in the other former soviet republics that became independent and western leaning nations um that's not in russia's best interest in in his mind i think in russia's best interest is to have him as its strong leader uh indefinitely because he is leading it back to greatness you know we often think about the soviet era but but it's almost more czarist with except he is the state as you're describing it yeah exactly it is almost more more czarist i mean you could you know one one could argue that stalin who concentrated so much power in himself was somewhat czarist uh as well um but but not any of the other soviet union leaders with the exception of lenin i guess but um but the subsequent soviet leaders um were were more um like the head apparatchik whose turn it came and none threatened uh to become czar of all the russia's uh and and um and that very much seems to be the way putin thinks of himself as more of a czar than uh as a president and in overseas during this period he seems like he's emboldened i mean you mentioned the poisonings they're happening in the united kingdom he's uh deploying troops into syria and doesn't seem to mind the you know criticism the accusations of you know war crimes that that russia gets accused of um what's his approach during that period leading up to now to foreign policy i think he has he has realized and understood that he does not have to stay within what most of us would consider international norms because in the end what is anybody going to do to him right i mean how um you know rank has its privileges nuclear weapons being a nuclear nation um a nuclear-armed nation has its privileges and one of those privileges is that nations then that may criticize you that may disapprove of what you're doing that may be appalled and and um and sickened and outraged by actions you're taking have to stop there they can't go to war with russia because it's suicidal to do so um mutual assured destruction uh is uh is still a doctrine that kind of works and it's a fact of our lives and so i think he learned that he can sort of push it to the limit and then beyond because in the end um the united states is not going to go to war against russia france and and great britain are not going to go to war against russia nobody's going to go to war against russia because if you do that you are signing your own death warrant and and that of of of millions of innocent people you're you're killing your own country as well as as well as his and so um since that can't happen he can push as far as he wants trump loses the election somebody who was sort of giving him in some ways a green light to do what he was doing and and biden comes in but at the same time putin must be watching january 6 the withdrawal from afghanistan what do you think he's seeing in in biden in the united states in this run-up to the decision to go into ukraine i think he misperceived uh president biden i think he underestimated him as a leader and underestimated uh his position uh his strength as um uh as a leader you see january 6 you you see an america that is divided um uh that is uh chaotic and you can assume that it's it's going to be less effective in opposition you see the withdrawal from afghanistan and um you know russia also withdrew from afghanistan or the soviet union did i mean it's not um so so maybe um maybe you take a lesson from that or maybe not i think you look at afghanistan and you see a united states that may not have the stomach for confronting russia if it does take action like he's taking in ukraine you look at a united states not necessarily in in retreat but by the united states that is is not advancing advancing its interests and advancing its uh power in the world so i think i think he's been surprised at the at the strength and the unity of the reaction both worldwide and within the united states i think he anticipated more division inside the united states about how to respond if he took a step like like the one he's taking now i think he expected us to be slower in reacting i don't think he expected the sanctions to be as tough as they are and i think he's probably concerned about further steps that could be taken to sanction the oil and gas industry which would hurt even more we started with talking about that national security meeting but something that is really striking during the era of covet when you look at the pictures of vladimir putin that he's on video conference with people that when he is in person uh he's at the end of the long table time and time again what does it say about putin to see these images of putin apart what is it what does it suggest anything about it is very very strange i mean again even in the age of covert when we establish social distancing and we don't sit in in in tight clusters without mass the way we used to um even even then the the way he establishes uh physical distance puts his aides or anyone who's talking to him really um almost on a lower plane on a lower level um it it suggests that he sees himself as a part and above um all of those he interacts with um i i you noted that when president macron france for example came to to visit again you had them sitting at opposite ends of this impossibly long table i mean there's there's no sort of medical reason why uh even in the coveted times why there had to be such great distance between them uh and so it has to be deliberate and it has to be a deliberate way of saying uh i'm apart from you i'm above you and you have come as a supplicant to ask something of me and i will grant it or i will not um but there's no sense of of sort of uh conversation as equals uh and and you can by extension wonder if he believes he has equals so in the film we've watched him what he's watched the collapse of the soviet union he's watched the u.s you know in his view humiliate him and and try to undermine him my question is is this the moment that in his own mind his life has been building up to the invasion of ukraine does this does this feel like when you read his speeches and see what he's saying uh like the culmination of his life the culmination of history leading to this moment for him um you know i do think uh this is a culmination i do think he sees his his life as having led him to this point to this momentous point but i don't think he feels that he's finished yet i don't think uh uh if he conquers ukraine uh and even if he reunites ukraine with russia i don't necessarily think he feels he's he's finished uh and he has written his legacy i really think he sees himself as as restoring russia to absolute greatness in the world and reassembling basically the russian empire you know this is the tsarist empire the soviet empire whatever whatever it was uh that doesn't mean i think he's going to uh again uh start invading nato countries uh i don't think he's completely mad but if he gets away with ukraine i do think he will um continue to push and i think he what he will push for is a kind of um at least effective neutrality from the countries on his borders i think he is surprised probably now that he hasn't gotten that yet and that um that in fact um those nato countries and even countries that are not now part of nato like like finland um uh and finland has been kind of neutral but i think he's surprised that those countries are leaning forward and criticizing what he's doing so harshly but i'm not sure he'll be entirely deterred i think he sees first he has to deal with ukraine this is more difficult than he could have imagined um and uh assuming he accomplishes eventually what he wants to accomplish in ukraine um then i think he you know i think he wants more i i really do putin seems to be a very canny operator he minimal investment in the election and he gets great results the crimea invasion is something you know they're able to mount without a military invasion or without military without fighting but in this case it seems like he doesn't understand the capabilities of the russian military he doesn't understand the attitudes of the ukrainian people he doesn't understand what the response of the west will be what what happened why does this seem so different in his understanding or how it seems like he understands what's going on well you know we talked about that distance that he establishes a physical distance um from his from his aides from from outsiders um you know i i think that that's a visualization of um his his distance from um uh from realities that he really should have and could have been more in touch with so um he should have been more in touch with the capabilities of the russian army and its lack of apparent readiness to to really carry out an operation of this size uh i think he was uh certainly uh not in touch with what people in uh what the people of ukraine were really feeling um and um how strongly they felt um about their own independence and their um their independence from russia from moscow um he was out of touch with that he was out of touch with how the world community would react and again i think he is uh he is a bit stunned by this by the strength and unanimity of the reaction and so if if you isolate yourself you put yourself above everybody else and and and you you only listen to people who tell you yes and tell you what you want to hear then you get you get a lot of bad information and you miss a lot of relevant and good information and and you end up making mistakes and the way this invasion has gone so far um it's it's been nothing like what he expected or what he wanted and um now he has a firepower uh eventually to do to kiev what he did to grozny in chestnut i mean he can you can just pummel it into into into rubble uh and uh and win that way uh and that may be what he intends to do ultimately that makes it a kind of purex victory but um uh he does he shows no sign of being willing to back down you said that part of what this was about was was putin's fear of democracy of uprising in the streets of what it was that ukraine represents and right now we have this mirror image between zielinski and putin how do you think he views the ukrainian president i think he probably sees zolensky as a real threat to him um not just to his project uh in ukraine to what he's trying to do in ukraine but uh to to him personally um here you have this man democratically elected former comedian putin might have dismissed him as uh as kind of a joke uh initially um i do believe that you know his his idea of how to how to get how to carry out this invasion uh you know involves sort of sweeping in and and getting zielinski off the off the scene and i think he probably thought that zolensky um once russian forces started uh entering ukraine that zolensky would immediately flee into exile and would set up a some sort of government in exile that would uh actually to putin's point of view be irrelevant and you know let them have the liberal government in exile and i'll have my government in kiev um and um the fact that that zielinski did not run away and more than that that he became um this incredible leader became the face of resistance and a symbol for the whole world in the way that he has has to be a real shock for putin and um any and he must be wondering you know how can i how can i rid myself of this troublesome ukrainian president you know how can i get rid of this guy because um uh when you look at the way he has rallied uh the ukrainian uh forces the ukrainian people um he's rallied the leaders of uh and people of the world uh in opposition uh to this invasion i don't think putin anticipated there would be any such figure in ukraine who could uh who could accomplish what zelinski is accomplishing i mean and it sort of raises the changes the nature of the war you know between a territorial dispute to one of you know an autocracy democracy sort of ideological conflict what are the stakes for putin at this moment how much has he risked in this invasion you know because we're looking at the arc of his life how important is this moment and what's at stake for him well this is a really important moment for him because um you know he crossed the rubicon right he i mean he went in i think um i i think it would be very very difficult for him uh to back down at this point you know he was offered various sort of uh off ramps and he hasn't taken them to this point so um uh you know does he really press on and in part i think it depends on the on the performance of the russian military and whether they can show sort of more effectiveness than they have thus far at anything other than artillery and shelling cities which they're very good at that but but in terms of actually actual maneuver in terms of of uh you know resupplying forces at the front and whatever they're you know it's not working the way he he wanted it to work but i don't see how he backs down at this point you know i don't see having gone this far uh and incurred the costs that he's incurring how does he then say oh okay never mind so what's the end game here and and i think he is certainly smart enough to see that it is really an unattractive prospect to think of of having to to fight a long-running potentially really effective insurgency in ukraine that's being armed and fueled by the west but that may be he may see no other option but to keep going and to then fight that insurgency indefinitely knowing you know that it's a quagmire for him but he stepped into the quagmire and i don't see him at this point deciding to back out i think he's just gonna keep waiting forward you know putin who thinks the u.s has been trying to launch a coup against him who watched gaddafi being dragged in the streets and said that could be me i mean the state it must be very personal stakes for him at this moment too well i i think it is it is very personal for him and his main focus has to be on on ukraine and what's happening there but he has to be looking you know out the corner of his eye at um uh at his um defense ministers at his um you know the the uh officials uh around him um at the oligarchs who have so benefited um uh from his rule but who who now um are being punished in uh in in material ways and who are going to who are going to suffer and he has to wonder um uh whether um you know he he has made himself more vulnerable internally uh by doing this uh than uh than he would like to be the threat to him might not be um you know being dragged out of the the kremlin by a a mob of of citizens um it might be being um you know deposed or assassinated or whatever um by an effective cabal of oligarchs and and and maybe defense officials and others who get together and and say we have to stop this madness we need to focus on putin and on his motivation it's a biography and where he came from but one of the amazing things about it and the reason the biographies feel so important is the consequences of this decision you know one man making a decision what what are the consequences for the world for ukraine for russia of a decision that that putin very much made on his own well look at that i mean just look at what what's happening this is a world historical moment and uh that we will look back on uh and say um this is one of those moments when things big things changed look at germany the um uh greatest economic power in europe has always been in since world war ii has been incredibly skittish about uh about arming even itself much less absorbing uh arming others about any sort of militarism because of its world war ii uh past uh and its world war ii crimes and now germany um you know supplying lethal weapons to ukraine deciding to to spend more than uh two percent of its gdp on the military um deciding to sort of arm up in a way um that was unthinkable i mean it was unthinkable last year not just not just not just 10 years ago last year it was unthinkable that that that germany would be be doing this you look at the forward movement of nato arms to the sort of eastern front of poland and romania and and how the united states and uh and the nato allies are are literally moving forces uh forward to position in those countries in a way again that would not could not have happened uh a year ago and would have been seen as as you know provocative and unnecessary and why would you why would you do such a thing well um now it it seems very necessary um and you look at the kinds of decisions that um uh that leaders elsewhere are are having to make i mean um uh you know how long is president xi of china uh willing to tolerate uh this invasion um uh how long does he you know is he uh um there are benefits to him from this relationship with russia um china is playing an even longer game and it and it doesn't involve i think um um uh uh being seen in lockstep with russia um so i wonder about that i wonder about um you know the other sort of rising asia superpower uh india another uh nuclear-armed state uh traditional relationship with russia that's where it gets india gets most of its advanced weapons uh yet uh even under narendra modi who who doesn't mind being kind of an outlier among world leaders there's going to be a lot of of of of pressure within uh india um uh to to you know to really rethink that relationship with russia given what's happening happening in ukraine i think he's he has reshuffled the the decks of the of the international order in a um you know one move one man one decision one move um one other man um president zielenski because after all you know it's interesting his history is not so um deterministic right you know one person can make a huge difference and vladimir putin is making a huge difference i would argue that vladimir zielinski is also making a huge difference in the world by by his bravery uh in confronting putin my last question is how dangerous is is putin at this moment he's obviously there's this talk of you know world war iii and and nuclear threat there's a threat to the international order and the laws of nations how dangerous is he uh how dangerous should we think that he is at this moment we should think that putin's really dangerous i mean you know it just because he has brought us to a point where miscalculations um uh become potentially um catastrophic i think most of the talk about you know nuclear war and and uh the third world war will be nuclear and that sort of thing is uh yes that's bluster and he's threatening and and um and and you don't take him literally but by the same token by doing what he's he's done and by speaking the way he's speaking um blustering and threatening in this manner he you know necessarily other powerful countries um have to sort of be more um alert and um and be more prepared and and uh and and start thinking about contingencies and uh you know the bright administration's been very careful not to put u.s forces on higher alert not to not to sort of um take the bait in that way and i think that's because of the realization that you you don't want to um bluff by walking closer and closer to the cliff because you might slip uh and and uh and a slip is um unthinkable it's uh it's the end of civilization as we know it uh it is fatal uh so you can't slip he's playing a very putin is playing a very dangerous game with his his rhetoric and so uh he he he really increases the possibility that we blunder uh into some sort of catastrophic nuclear exchange and um you know i don't think that will happen but i think there's a much greater risk of that happening today than there was a month or a year ago somebody we talked to once said that putin's like a rat and when he when you corner this rat he can always eat his way out of it that's when he's most dangerous how close are we to uh to watching putin get in that corner and how could he uh fight his way out of this do you think if if that's a really true description i think that may be true i mean because i don't see putin um uh you know just sort of throwing up his hands and saying okay i give up i'm um uh you know and and withdrawing i don't see that um i do see the possibility uh that at some point he would take a face-saving off-ramp uh of you know declared ukrainian neutrality or some something like that i see that possibility but um but um but not soon i mean i i i i i dearly hope that some of the irrationality we see now is an act i i dearly hope that he's um he's he's sort of playing uh a madman on television and he's not actually a madman um that he's uh i i i hope a lot of this is just is is calculated to scare us because um uh because if he's if he's really serious um uh then you know we're we're really screwed he's got ms nukes on alert and i i just you know i don't spend a lot of time worrying about nuclear war usually and and i thought we had gotten to the point where the world had to think less about that but um but we're not we're not that's a that's a longer range issue for the world i think and it'll be interesting to see if you know assuming and i do think this will end somehow other than with the destruction of the world uh it'll be interesting to see if this reignites any interest in um any renewed interest in nuclear arms control and in in sort of lowering that temperature around around the world or if it has the opposite effect and in fact ends up spurring other developed nations that could easily acquire their own nuclear weapons like south korea um germany um you know all the developed nations could could have crashed nuclear programs and have nuclear arms and you know in practically no time and so does this end up making more nations want to become nuclear armed that would be a nightmare scenario and again not thinkable a year ago very plausible today my question's about nato uh so trump had been bashing nato for years and uh he even talked about removing the united states from nato so i was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about that acrimony that trump had towards nato and how putin would have perceived that you know what did what did he see in trump's treatment of nato well you know i don't know if putin sees nato as an actual threat to russia an actual threat to him or um or a humiliation and but he does i think or did feel humiliated uh when nato sort of expanded um right to the border of russia he sees nato i think as fundamentally an anti-russian alliance not a not an alliance of sort of western security but an alliance against russia i think that's the way he sees it and and you know he's not the first russian leader to have um uh to have really valued that the sort of territorial buffer zone um between um moscow and western europe um uh you know it it um that seems to be almost a fetish of of russian leaders that um that that expanse coming through you know belarus and and and ukraine that's their big part of that buffer um zone that sort of protects russia from its potential enemies in the west those potential enemies in the west are now embodied by nato and his view and it seems to just make him very uncomfortable uh the idea of nato being right at russia's russia's border um uh and i think that seems to be genuine discomfort on his part whether it's legitimate or not it seems to be genuine discomfort

Channel: FRONTLINE PBS | Official

Views: 813,331

Keywords: vladimir putin, eugene robinson, washington post, russian history, ukraine, russian invasion, invasion of ukraine

Id: U47bxDn-Mqw

Length: 51min 6sec (3066 seconds)

Published: Sun Mar 13 2022