- Welcome everyone. Good morning, or good
afternoon, I suppose. This is a PIDB second virtual meeting, and we're happy to have all of you join us for this important event. First, I wanted to go over
a few housekeeping matters, and if you have a question, please email it to pidb@nara.gov. We have staff monitoring this
address and there'll be time for questions towards
the end of the meeting. If we are unable to get
your questions on air, like our meeting in June,
we promise to address the questions and post our responses on our blog Transforming Classification. So we've largely been
virtual over the summer, but we've been quite busy. We welcomed our newest member, former Congressman Trey Gowdy. John Tierney testified before the Senate Select
Committee on intelligence and provided the board's view on declassification
reform and the bipartisan 2020 Declassification Reform Act bill, who is sponsored by one
of our speakers today, Senator Ron Wyden, and we
met virtually to discuss our ideas for 2021. Something we'll talk about
in more detail today. And we also talked about how
we follow up on the report we issued earlier this year. We have an ambitious agenda today. So let's get started with
our first guest speaker. I'm pleased to welcome the
Archivist of the United States. David Ferriero, back
to speak to all of us. David was appointed by
President Obama and then confirmed by the Senate
on November 6th, 2009, before becoming the Archivist
of the United States, he served as the Director of the New York Public
Library, the largest public library system in the world. He is an advocate and
ally for open government and government transparency. Over the last 11 years, he has led and modernized
National Archives. Among his accomplishments
he eliminated the backlog of over 400 million records awaiting declassification review. He oversaw the declassification
and public release of over 40,000 documents that
were previously withheld. And the John F. Kennedy
assassination records collection. He transformed the National
Archives by fostering a culture of openness, transparency, and innovation to improve public access to government records. He's developed a Citizen Archivist program that allows users to provide
description information to digitize archival images, making it easier for all of
us to discover and use them. And he issued a directive on
managing government records, the Director of the Office
of Management and Budget establishing requirements and metrics to help federal agencies
modernize their own records management practices and processes. And most importantly,
he's in the PIDB corner, we deeply appreciate his support. Not only has he allowed us
to borrow and use his staff for our work, he's also
served as a willing partner in our work, making time
to answer our questions, brainstorm ideas, and provide an archivist and librarian perspective with us. So without further ado, I will welcome David to the meeting. - Thank you, Alyssa. Good afternoon. Normally I'd welcome you to my house in the McGowan Theater here at the National Archives in Washington. Today, however, I'm welcoming
you to my office due to the COVID-19 national emergency. I'm joining you through
our WebEx video platform and on the National
Archives YouTube channel, with our buildings closed
to the public and much of our staff performing
their work remotely. Our staff here in Washington, D.C. and
in facilities around the nation are continuing to
serve the American people. Our staff are assisting
veterans and their families claim benefits, help federal agencies with their record responsibilities, and responding to researcher requests. We continue to add and update descriptions in the National Archives online catalog, enhancing and improving
access to our records. Since March, our staff
has added over 865,000 descriptions to the
National Archives catalog, and they've added over 10
million digitized images to the catalog. In August, we launched the
Presidential Libraries Explorer. It compliments the Record Group Explorer that we deployed in late 2019. The next generation digital
finding aids that also offer users a visualization
tool to help them find digitized images by
collection or record group. They include textual records,
audio and video files, photographs, and artifacts. Our staff developed
interactive programming and created online
exhibits to help our nation celebrate the Centennial
of the 19th Amendment to the US Constitution, giving
women the right to vote. As the presidential election
season enters its final month, our federal register
staff is busy preparing for their role in the
electoral college process. This work is important
and needs three goals in our strategic plan
to make access happen, connect with our customers
and maximize our value to the nation. I commend our staff for their work, especially during this challenging time. With all this important work continuing during the pandemic, I'm pleased to speak at
this virtual public meeting of the Public Information
Declassification Board. I'd like to thank them
for their work during this difficult year, despite the pandemic, they published an important
report to the President, modernization of the US
National Security Classification and Declassification System
in June, bringing attention to an unheralded issue that
is nevertheless critical in the digital age we now live and work. Their report was intended
to inspire the government to think differently about
policies and practices that may have worked
well in the previous era, but are no longer effective
in this digital age, just as we at the National
Archives did in developing a new model for electronic
records management that includes entirely new
processes and policies. Earlier this month, I
watched a bit of member John Tierney testify before the Senate Select
Committee on Intelligence about the recommendations in this report, his
testimony and their report are compelling and worthy of discussion. The issue of declassification is a concern to the National Archives, through the National Declassification
Center, our staff processes millions of
pages of classified records each year for declassification, to make them available to the public. This work requires the
participation of agency partners who have equity in
the information contained in the records. In that sense, NDC is
already taking a federated approach as agencies
review their information for declassification taking
their cue from NDC staff on records that need their review. The NDC prioritizing review of records that our researchers want
to see through our indexing on demand program. Through this process, driven
by researchers this year, the NDC has released intelligence records from the Chief of Naval Operations during the Korean War, Department
of the State records related to the North Atlantic
Treaty Organization during the Carter administration
and records relating to the US-Canada International
Joint Commission, Department of the Navy records and motion picture records
relating to nuclear testing in the Pacific, conversations from the Nixon White
House tapes and motion pictures related to the development of the Polaris Weapon System. It's important though, to
recognize that challenges lie ahead with the growth
of digital records. Our mission is to drive openness, cultivate public
participation in government and strengthen our nation's democracy through public access to high
value government records. The National Archives and the NDC will be an active participant in
discussions seeking new solutions to improve
declassification processes for electronic records. We look forward to working cooperatively with other government
agencies to harness use of advanced technologies
and tools necessary to aid archival processing
and declassification review. Thank you for your work on
behalf of the American people. And I look forward to
your continuing interest and engagement in seeking
solutions to modernize the classification and
declassification system. - Thank you, David. Good afternoon, I'm Mark A. Bradley. The Director of the Information
Security Oversight Office here at the National Archives. I also serve as the
Executive Secretary at the Public Interest Declassification
Board, and my staff is responsible for
providing administrative and logistical support for the board. This time I'd like to welcome
our newest member, Trey Gowdy. Trey was appointed to a
three year term on the board on August 24th, 2020 by House minority
leader, Kevin McCarthy. Trey is a graduate of
Baylor University and the University of South
Carolina School of Law. After serving as a federal
and state prosecutor, Trey served four terms
in Congress representing South Carolina's fourth
congressional district, encompassing both
Spartanburg and Greenville. While in Congress, Trey served
on the judiciary committee, the Oversight and
Government Reform Committee, and the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence among others. He was also chair of the House Select Committee
on events surrounding the 2012 terrorist attacks in Benghazi. Along with my staff and
the other board members who are present, I look forward to working with Trey as it continues its efforts to make recommendations and
how the federal government can modernize and improve the national security classification and
declassification system. Trey, would you like to say
a few words to the audience? - Well, yeah, just a few, Mark. First of all, thank you
for the introduction. Also wanna thank minority
leader Kevin McCarthy, for allowing me to work
alongside each of you. You are correct I'm out of elected office, but that does not mean you have to be out of public service, that can manifest itself
in lots of different ways, including around issues as significant as classification and
declassification and access to information and an
open and free society like the one that we aspire to live in. And I wanna thank my fellow board members, I learned a lot from Alyssa
and John and Ken, as well as the staff at our first meeting. And I look forward to working with each of you over the dependency of the town for which have been appointed. It's now my pleasure to
introduce and welcome Senator Ron Wyden. I will introduce him. He's incredibly busy, so he
may not have joined us yet, but I will introduce him in
anticipation of his joining us. Senator Wyden was first elected to the United States Senate in 1996, and that has been at the
forefront of the fight against unnecessary classification
for over two decades. He, along with Senator Jerry
Moran of Kansas coauthored, the bipartisan Declassification
Reform Act of 2020 and Senator Wyden is largely responsible for the existence of the PIDB having taken a leadership role in
extending the board's mandate, expanding its authorities and
ensuring that it is funded. Senator Wyden has been a member of the Senate Intelligence
Committee since 2001. He has fought numerous
declassification battles on behalf of the American
people and those battles, to name the few, include public access to
the top line intelligence budget, reports on the 9/11
attacks and the Iraq war. He's also been an opponent
of secret law and fought for the public to gain
access to important legal opinions that they otherwise
would not have had access to. Senator Wyden's efforts
in the classification and declassification realms
go back some 20 years to his work with then Senator
Daniel Patrick Moynihan. These efforts also include the bipartisan Declassification Reform
Act, the aforementioned with Senator Jerry Moran from Kansas. Senator Wyden, welcome. And we look forward to your remarks. - [Mark] Has he joined us? - I will say in his defense, we are shockingly running
ahead of schedule. And I don't think he is
scheduled to join us just yet, but at least the
introduction's out of the way when he does come. - [Mark] Alyssa, do you wanna keep going. - Well, so it may
actually be good to cover. So we are so pleased to
have Trey Gowdy with us, I actually helped fill out
the board and that has been a good progress over the summer. We've actually had a
lot of discussions also about what the board does next. So obviously the board issued
our report earlier this year. And one of the things
that we've been doing over the course of the summer is thinking about how we follow up. So we will be talking a little bit about that as we go forward, thinking about how we make
sure that people understand the challenges that we're seeing in that the declassification realm and what we can potentially
do about it as a government, and think that this looks
like good government, which is why we wanna
actually go into a little bit more on the details for the report. I'm also thinking a lot
about how we just do more education on what classification and declassification looks like. And we think that that
is something I should, that came out of our last meeting. We realized that there's
actually a fair amount of work to be done in that space on
prioritization questions. And also just what process looks like. So we're gonna be talking about more about that after Senator Wyden joins us. I think while we wait for him, we also had one of our members,
as it's been mentioned, John Tierney testify in front of the Senate Intelligence Committee. So we might do a little
bit of a preview of some of the discussion that we had there, which actually might lead well into Senator Wise's testimony as well. So, John do you wanna give
a little bit of a recap of the testimony. - You're praying that I say yes since we are running ahead
of schedule, (laughs) you just know when there's something spiraling down another path. Look, I was happy to represent the Public Interest Declassification Board and had testified in front of the Senate Select Committee on
Intelligence, just last month as a matter of fact. In the new year coming up, I think it's gonna be really
important that we continue at the advocacy for our plan, that we educate policy
makers and senior leaders and the executive branch, members of Congress and
their staffs and the public on just how important it
is to actually modernize the classification
declassification system. It's important for our democracy, but it's also essential
for our national security. It is critically important
that the government establishes a senior
level executive agent. I spoke a great deal
about that at the hearing. And I wanna add a little word. We need an executive agent, a senior level person
to oversee and implement any meaningful classification
and declassification reform. It's gonna take sustained leadership, and that's gonna be
instrumental in driving any change that's necessary to bring the classification declassification system into this century. That executive agent
would have the authority to oversee implementation of new policies and processes across the agencies. That's a coordination role that includes developing specific classification declassification guidance. It can be used in class
agencies to make decisions even more precisely. He'll have the authority
to direct and coordinate research into advanced
technology solutions and will ensure the
interoperability across the federated enterprise
system and have the authority to coordinate technological
acquisitions and be able to use sponsorable for
progress and answerable to the President. I think that's one of the
critical things is somebody has to be a person who
would have credibility and authority ingrained
that people will listen to them and an individual
who answers directly to the President and
who has that authority. It's gonna be able to
take all of those agencies and get them to work
cooperatively right across the spectrum on that. It's critical to the
security of the nation and technologies like
artificial intelligence, machine learning and
they're revolutionizing operations and missions. And it has to be used to
revolutionize the management of the classified data. And there are specific tools
and technology solutions that exist now at various
agencies for other purposes. And we need to allow
those agencies to share the acquisition, and the
advanced technologies, and the technical expertise is gonna take for an ecosystem going forward. This integrated federated
systems approach is going to be what ensures
interoperability and allows for the effective use of
advanced technologies, support the classification
declassification system, and it's gonna lead to solutions for declassifying large
volumes as the digital data. So that's essentially, I think enough to get this out there. And I spoke as slowly as I could to eat up as much time as I could. - [Alyssa] Oh no, we do not
try to eat at time here, you have a lot to talk about in that area. I think actually one of the
things I was sort of struck by that the committee was considering, that hopefully we'll hear
from Senator Wyden on as well, was the question of executive agent and who actually should
be responsible for exactly those kinds of actions. And I think we have thought a lot about as a board about who
the right entity would be. And I noticed Senator
Wyden specifically focused on our recommendation that it be the DNI as the Director
of National Intelligence. And I guess sort of again, in anticipation of Senator
Wyden, it might be a good talk a little bit about
that recommendation, because I think we did, you did get a lot of
questions on that piece. And I think we have actually
talked a fair amount about that at the board
level about why the DNI makes the most sense. And it was really something
that we considered a fair amount. We thought about the kind
of experience that DNI had and really the fact
that the DNI's role was to integrate the agencies
and organizations of the intelligence
community in a way that would help support a mission. I think that my sense from
the testimony from the point that you made very effectively
in the testimony was, yes, there are lots of organizations that have classified information that are not in the intelligence community, but the ODNI actually plays a role with those organizations as well. And it's just having a
leader who can oversee processes and practices. And someone, as you said,
who is at the top level, part of the conversations
already, is a voice that people already listen to. And that's just an important piece. Our sense also is just that the ODNI has the technical knowhow on
acquisition experience to get some machine learning programs and artificial intelligence
programs that you mentioned. We really need someone who
can help in exactly that area. They've actually done. The ODNI has done the
Intelligence Community Information Technology Enterprise. ICITE, which is an
enterprise level system, not exactly the kind of
example of a federated system that we're thinking about in
the declassification space. So it seems to us that is the fact that ODNI has experienced, that they really thought
about how you develop and deploy information
systems means that they can also play an incredible role
in managing declassification. And that is something I think that, again, the community was very interested in, but also I think Senator
Wyden specifically. So I think that's something
that we will wanna focus on and my hope is that Senator
Wyden actually brings that piece up, because
it is something, I think, that was an important
recommendation for us. - So I agree on that. And there was a question, there's some pushback
from committee members who I think were taking on the testimony of the NDI, who was a little hesitant, one of the questions and why he doesn't the Information Security Oversight Office. We call them ISOO, why don't they do it? And I think that is because one thing, they've done a great job
and they've been nice to the staff us, and they're very busy
and they've committed public servants that we rely on a lot, but they also have a
pile of other work to do. And they're responsible
for personal policy and oversight on
government wide classified national security information system. I can pick out all the
different executive orders that the classified national
security information, national industrial security program, tribal and local tribal
private sector entities, control of classified data, all of that plus the work that they do with the PIDB on that, and only 18 people. 18, for all of that. And they're so overtaxed
right now with the personnel that they have, it would
be unfair and unreasonable to expect them to take
on this responsibility. And also they wouldn't be
able to be very effective. We're talking about an
operation that needs to command authority, to
be able to get the respect of all the other agencies, to coordinate the work
between all of them, to go out and find technology and new ways to deal with this. That's 18 people is not
gonna be able to do that. The whole National Archives
under which ISOO is housed. It's the whole thing only
gets me to $60 million, which is $40 million less
than if we're getting over the last five years. So it does not look like
this is anywhere near the type of agency which
is being able to do it. And it tells what you need
to be on the other hand, does have the resources
to take on the project. - Yeah, completely agree.
I completely agree. And this that really was something that we covered in our report. I think the other thing
that was sort of striking in the testimony and then
this sort of back and forth that you had during the testimony versus the underlying question of
the notion that ODNI was gonna somehow be taking charge
of classification overall. And that's clearly not what
we were proposing as a board, this is not a system where they then control classification
for all of the agencies. This is a federated system, and those agencies still
have their own processes for classification and declassification, but it's really that
notion of coordinating what the process looks like
across different agencies. So it's not that they
ODNI then has authority for declassifying non intelligence
community information, for example, but having
a consistent process, having a consistent set of practices, having tools that can actually help on the declassification side
is incredibly important. And I think that is also
something that came up. And I think that there's that going back to the education piece that
we talked a little bit about, my sense is that there's confusion about how declassification
processes work internally and what role this the
executive agent can play. In part, because I think that there's sort of confusion over someone actually declassifying themselves
versus creating a system that enables declassification. It's just not something that people think about in practice, which is
certainly an area I think for education, for that
we can actually help on the education side. - That was obviously an area of concern, interesting that those
members came and left there from the committee
hearing is there to have to do that so many other obligations. And they were actually good about coming in and spending as much time as possible. That question kept
arising and it was a lot of they've gotta be kind
of decide how documents get classified within each agency. IT gave us a chance to
repeat it and emphasize it. No, that's not what we're talking about. I'm not talking about this agent coming in and deciding what documents get classified or declassified. It's actually coordinating
the whole enterprise to do that and to help them get the technology and the other learning tools
that are necessary to do it and all of that aspect of it. - Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, I thought going
back to the testimony piece, which I think I would
encourage people who are, if they haven't read it already, we actually have public
testimony that is available. John has public testimony that's available about the PIDB views on this. I think that the longterm challenge for us is making sure that people understand that this is something that can be done, that we can make progress on, but we have to take steps on it as well. - [Mark] Absolutely. - So I think Senator Wyden
will be joining us shortly. I think just on other
issues that came up in front of the committee, we obviously talked about the need for it. I think that one of the
things that was most compelling done just in the testimony or the actual stories that you gave. So the questions of what happens
when we don't declassify, what happens when we
have a buildup of records and what a big problem
that is for government. I actually think it might
be useful if you could just talk about the joint
staff example, for example, or some of that, the other examples that you gave of how this actually hurts
the government overall. - Alyssa, you're cutting in and out. In fact, I might have to put my earphones in and you're cutting in and
out on the audio on my system. So I'm not at all clear
on what you were talking to me on that. Let me see if I can put this up here. All right.
- Sorry about that. Can you hear me now, John? - I can't, hold on one sec. All right, let's try that. - So I was just suggesting that you, that one of the things I
thought was really powerful in the testimony that you
gave were the examples that you had about why
declassification is so important, why this is such a significant problem. And then you just had some
really interesting stories in the testimony. I don't know if it might
make sense to just go over a couple of those. I think we have about three minutes before Senator Wyden joins us. - Well, I think the most
compelling one was a story about General Hyten and
his comments on the fact of what it does in the
national security realm, the inability to get these records. The other part of it was the Space Force. The newly implemented Space Force. The ranking of officers
there indicated clearly that it's a, it's not good. They're not able to share requests, other aspects of their own enterprise in the other agencies, the information that's
necessary to get this off the ground and moving forward, they basically slows
things down and interferes pretty dramatically with their operations. And I think those were probably
the two most compelling quotes that we had during the testimony in Congress that were,
that we made on that. And I know that there
are many, many others. I don't have listed facts right here, but I think it's clear. And I think people just
general experience, I think Trey Gowdy would recognize he has just experienced
in Congress or whatever, the system right now is
clearly not understood by many, many people in Congress. And why would they? Not against anybody. But it's probably
something people have to be educated and schooled then. So they understand the classes works. But you also don't wanna
go into a situation where everything is
classified because it's easier to classify than it is to not
classify, just serve a note, get criticized for overclassifying, but you're surely gonna get some flak if you don't satisfy something that should have been classified. So the default mechanism works
in the contrary way as well. So I think we need to
have this system explained across the board, to the Members of
Congress and their staff, the executive and the
public to make sure on that. And then we have to make sure that all of our national security apparatus is within this so that
it functions properly. If you have two of your highest ranked
security people in military telling you that you need this, you need them a better
classification system, the declassification
system, you gotta take heed. - That's exactly right. I
think that's exactly right. John, I'm actually gonna ask, maybe turn it over to Mark and see if Senator Wyden has joined us? - I'm right here and I'm muted I believe. - [Mark] (laughs) Welcome, Senator. - Would you like me to start? - [Mark] Please. - [Ron] Well, thank you very much. And first of all, I understand that you've got Congressman Gowdy involved and Senator Moran and
I are working very hard to attract more bipartisan
support for the cause. And we look forward to working with the Congressman in
that particular focus, because I think all
important issues you wanna mobilize bipartisan support. And I think this is hugely important. I've spent 20 years working to reform this out of control net of a classification
declassification system and the public interest
classification board has played a very important role in this effort. And so I so appreciate your
work with very involved in effort to get your
organization off the ground. And so I appreciate all
of the work you're doing and we need help on the
issue from the outside, help from the inside. And get very quickly to the point about what is broken in
this mess of a system. The American people now
spend more than $1.8 billion a year on a broken down
dysfunctional wreck that really doesn't serve
anybody, not the public, not the government, not national security. Every single day, records are
classified electronically, so you've got a tsunami
of classified information coming in that has just completely flooded and overwhelmed an obsolete paper-based declassification system. So the system is in
effect, choking on itself and it has been going
on for years and years, and it is getting worse and worse. Here's an example of how
absurd this all has become. When it comes time to
declassify a document, the agencies that have to sign off, do not even have the
ability to communicate about it securely online. Put your arms around that one. In 2020, the agencies that we want to do heavy lifting don't even have the ability to communicate about it securely online. So what happens is people
print out the document. They put them in a bag and drive around, presumably after they packed a big lunch, because they're gonna
be out there a long time if they get stuck in traffic, and they put these
documents in a bag and drive around from one agency to another. What a colossal waste of
taxpayer money and something that at the same time, really
hard to pull all this off. It damages American national
security and our democracy. Now, is there a group that
thinks that this is not a serious problem? I can't find them. Everybody agrees that this
system has become a farce and has to be modernized. Lots of people, including the board have been proposing technical
solutions for years. And I understand that this is probably not the kind of thing people are talking about in the local coffee shop, but it is still important
work that needs to be done. And there's only one thing missing. That's somebody to take responsibility, who has the expertise, who has the qualifications
and can make it happen. It is very, very apparent that somebody, someone, is the Director
of National Intelligence. DNI is already responsible for management of information technology
and the protection of sources and methods. DNI is already responsible
for developing a uniform policy within the community and at times across the government. That's why the PIDB
recommended that the DNI, a lot of acronyms here, step up and take on the leadership role. And that's what the
bipartisan legislation, that I've introduced with
Senator Jerry Moran does, it gives the Director
of National Intelligence the authority and funding
it needs to do the job. Now, some of you may have
seen the intelligence committee hearing last
month in which the ODNI, the Director of National Intelligence said you know, this is a serious problem, but they just practice to say that virtually anybody
else in America should be tasked with doing the job. They just did everything they could to avoid taking responsibility. But that's what leadership is all about. That's what Congress is
to direct the this task be implemented, and that
we make the judgment, because it's our decision, not the decision of the Director
of National Intelligence. There is a mess on our hands, the mess on our hands
with enormous national security implications,
privacy implications, efficiency implications,
taxpayer implications, bipartisan support for
legislation to fix this problem. And you all can play a critical role. You understand that democracy depends on transparency and accountability. This generation and future
generations need access to government records if they are to know their own history. If you're aware that the
rubber meets the road, you're the ones who
understand the damage caused by a broken system. You're the ones wanting to
help the American people, can play an enormous role in pushing the government and the Congress to fix it. Now, I want finally to
wrap this up by saying in a very polarized political climate, I have never once, never once suggested there's
anything about this issue that is partisan, from
the time Senator Moran. Who's very well respected in the Senate, considered
thoughtful knowledge of knowledgeable about technology. When he joined me, we said, we're not gonna run around and say, this is a Democratic issue
or a Republican issue. This is a red, white, and blue issue. We shouldn't be spending
billions and billions of dollars on a system that is just completely dysfunctional. Thank you very much
for inviting me to join you in an important meeting. And I just want you to know
that I believe it would be of enormous benefit if in your work on the non-partisan basis, you would make sure with
your efforts to reach out to government officials
and work that you do to analyze ideas, ends
up pushing government and Congress to fix the system, and give us a classification
declassification system that Americans can be proud of
and is well worth the money. I thank you all, and I understand that
you've got a busy program. I very much look forward
to hearing the results. And I hear that you're gonna
have government officials, you have historians and
contractors, and as I indicated, I'm very pleased that Congressman Gowdy
is going to be involved. And I think he can be
instrumental in helping us line up more Republicans on this issue. It's all about red, white, and blue, and has nothing to do partisan politics. Thank you all very much. And (indistinct) We'll speak for the last
five or six minutes. So I hope that all of this
came through nonetheless. - It did, Senator, sir. Thank you very much for
your eloquent words. We really appreciate it. - Yeah. Thank you so much,
Senator Wyden, sorry, go ahead. - [Ron] Oh, please. I just said, look forward
to working with you but I can't see the screen. (laughs) - Well, we can still
hear you if that makes you feel better. (laughs) So thank you so much for speaking to us and for joining the public
meeting and for your remarks. I think we all agree
with you wholeheartedly. We think this is a good government issue, and we appreciate the
fact that you've been an advocate for really considering classification declassification reform. I think we all share your views that this is a national security issue. That it's a longterm
question for the government that we just need to get our hands around and that we need to come up with processes on a nonpartisan basis that
actually help make sure that we have records that
are publicly available so that people can learn from them. So that people can make sure we actually coordinate across government. and aren't sort of siloed
because of restrictions. We really appreciated
the opportunity. Okay. - [Ron] I so appreciate your taking that approach because, look, this issue is not going
to be on the cover of next week "People" magazine. It is not some sensationalistic
kind of question, but I'll tell you it
is enormously important because these documents, as I said, they're just tsunami of
documents and we are just making a mess out of it. I thank you for your thoughtful comments and I'm gonna have to
get off to another call, but I look forward to working with you. - And we look forward
to working with you too. And thank you again for
inviting as John Tierney, one of our board members to the Senate Select Committee
on Intelligence last month, we appreciate having the
opportunity to testify. - [Ron] Very good. Thank you all. - Yes, sir.
- Thank you. - Bye, sir.
- Thank you, Senator. - Okay, so I think we wanna turn next to our
thought for our work on 2021. Some of which have
actually been previewed, I think by the senator's comments, but also some of our
discussions about what happened in front of the committee. So we have a couple of things
that we wanted to cover, and I think what we will
do is I will touch on a few of them and then I'll turn
it over to our other members so that we can hear
their thoughts as well. I think our sense is that
some of our work is gonna simply continue from this year. And then we have a few
new projects and proposals that we are working through right now. One thing I just wanna flag again, at the end of the public meeting, we will have some time for questions. So if you have questions,
submit them by email, to pibb@nara.gov, and we
are happy to get to them as quickly as we can. And we can also get to them
on the blog if we don't get to them during the live meeting. So before we begin, I think we wanted to talk
about a few of the things that we've agreed to. And where we think we are on some of them. So going back to both our comments earlier and Senator Wyden's comments, we really think it's important
to continue advocating for the recommendations that we had in our May, 2020 report to the President. So it's big questions of systems and how those pieces fit together. And then the ability of
using technical approaches, for example, to really work
through declassification of a massive, massive number of records, it's something that we have to be sooner, rather than later, we need
someone who can be an ally to help make sure that
those things happen. And we really see that as
something that is important for government to work through. And the other component of that, I think, which has come up again on
this call a few times already, is that the component of education. So one of the things that was striking, has been striking to us
throughout the process was that the lack of information that was out in the public about why this matters. And maybe as Senator Wyden said, it's not gonna get you on the cover of People, but we do
think that the question of classification and
the number of records and the ability of making records public is an incredibly important one. So I think one of our goals
is going to be to seek out venues platforms
and activities that will bring attention to the
problems of the antiquated or outdated classification
declassification system. But also that talks through
what is classified information, how is information
classified, how do we go about the declassifying it? How do we prioritize that? So that is going to be, I think, a significant chunk of our
work in the coming period, which is really a follow onto the report, but making sure that
the public and members of Congress understand what
that system looks like, so that they can really
fully evaluate solutions and longterm approaches to the problem. One other thing that we
know we're gonna be working on over the next few months, we actually received a request from Senator Chris
Murphy's office to review five classified records
and provide recommendations to the President on
whether some or all of them can be classified. So we invented a conductive
review in accordance to the provisions in the Public Interest in
Declassification Act of 2000. And that is something
that is on our agenda. We are, we do recognize
that this is a strange time for everyone, and we are
constrained about what we can do in person because of the pandemic. So we don't know exactly
what the timing will be for that process, but it
is something that we have agreed to undertake as a board. And then finally, the last thing, just from a thing that we
intend to do standpoint or where we wanna go. We actually are planning on bringing back on the report side. We want to, we're gonna
prepare a short letter highlighting the need for modernizing the classification declassification system and recommendations for
solving these talents that will be sent to the new White
House after the inauguration, whatever party that is. The goal really is to
talk about this again, about how modernizing the classification and declassification system is an issue that concerns us all. We think it's critical for democracy and just the reality of having
digital records these days, the system that Senator
Wyden describes of one agency printing out records, bringing them in for
us into another agency for declassification review, it's not one that's sustainable. It's not one method that
taxpayers want us to engage in, we need to come up
with better processes. And we think that's
just an important thing from a national security standpoint. So it's something that we wanna highlight. And now I'm gonna turn
to my PIDB colleagues for their comments. So John, why don't we start with you? - Well, I think the Senator was very brief but I think he hit all that on the head you talked about the very
points that we discussed at our meeting in the going forward. So I'm not gonna be long. I'm just gonna reiterate
essentially what you're said as quickly as we need. Educate. I think that's the basis of all of it, to make sure people
understand why it's important and what exactly we're
talking about and what needs to be done. And then that turns
into advocacy of course, his recommendation
while we listen and keep an open mind, see what others may inject as their ideas into it is
not necessarily the case, present legislation that's
filed is going be exactly the end model. But I think we've done a good piece out there for the base
and work on it for that. And I think it's important
that we get the next White House, whether it's a
second term or initial term, focused on this well. We need their cooperation
and we need them to be able to empower the executive agent and get them the type of authority it's gonna take to carry this throughout. So I think that's a lot of
work that will have to be done. It should keep us busy
throughout the latter part of the year. - That's great, Don. Trey,
I wanna turn to you next. - Well, Alyssa, this is my second meeting and you may recall the
advice I've given myself is that when you're new to
something you should talk last and talk the least. So I'm gonna try to stick with that. You and John touched on
the two things that are foremost in my mind, which is it's a challenge
sometimes to both educate and advocate. So you have to educate first. And I was in the House for eight years, but it was only being on the House Select Committee on Intelligence where I learned anything related to classification. It's just being a regular
member of Congress. You don't even undergo a background check. The election is your background check. So you don't even know
what it takes to get them, to get a clearance. And you certainly don't
understand the process. So part of it is the public consciousness, convincing the public that
this is an important idea, but frankly, some of it
is also convincing members of Congress that do not
on the daily basis work with intelligence related issues. So Alyssa, I think you're right. Education often comes
before the advocacy does. I was also struck by John's
testimony before to see the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence about the military leaders and their take on how classification or overclassification
actually can have a negative impact on our national security. So under the, kind of under
the heading of education, I am personally curious the motive. If there is an overclassification,
what is the motive? And I think there probably is a bias. So it's overclassification.
What is the motive behind it? Is it fear of guessing wrong? I don't wanna, I don't speculate
on what the motive may be, but I think we need to
understand the motive so we're gonna be able to solve it. So all that to say, I
am in favor of the board moving on this issue of a
program of education the public, but not overlooking the
fact that many members of Congress, despite
having served a long time, just don't have the familiarity
that they would wanna have with these issues
because they don't bump into 'em on a regular basis. - Well, I do think, you may
be a new member of this, maybe only your second meeting, but I think that the you're
highlighting that issue for us. I think it's something
that really will lead to productive work in the next year. I think you're exactly right. And I think that it's
something that we can actually make a big difference
on, that education piece, just understanding what this looks like, which actually then I
think will lead to a better process down the road. So we really appreciate
your thoughts on that. And then finally, I wanted
to turn to Ken L. Wainstein. He has served two terms on the PIDB and his
second term just ended. So he's been incredibly
productive and an important number for us. And we wanted to make
sure he had an opportunity to provide some remarks
because his insight and experience in government
have been extremely helpful as we deliberate and
discuss and wrote our reports to the President. And he has actually had a
lot of thoughts on that, but some of the questions that, Trey, that you brought up on issues of overclassification and incentives and how we actually get to a better result from the initial classification side. So Ken, over to you you. - Okay. Thanks, Melissa. Appreciate the kind words and
good to hear from everybody. I just wanna start out making
a couple of general comments. I think it's been whatever,
six, seven years on the group, on the board and this, I just wanna point out how
this really is a special group. It's a decent group. A DC entity, that's like distinctly un-DC in the sense that it's nonpartisan, it's focused on problem
solving, not problem making, it's all about making the
government more effective, more efficient, and it's collegial. We all like each other.
We work well together. We produce unanimous reports. So it's really, it's a
wonderful group doing really important work. And I feel honored to have been a part of it for these last six or seven years. Also wanna give a nod to the staff. The IT staff is tremendous as we've been remarked on already, and they do a great job
of keeping us on the right path and supporting us and
pushing the mission forward. And then lastly, just wanna
thank the stakeholders, the folks who are on this call, the people who for whom this issue is near and dear and sort of passionate about it, because as a Senator Wyden said it, it isn't something that's
gonna get on the front of "People" magazine, but
it really is important to our democracy. So it's important that
we have people who are maintaining a focus on that, while it's all too easy to get distracted by the issues du jour. What I wanna talk about here
is just for just a moment to talk about overclassification
at the front end, and that is near and dear
to my heart because I was a long time government employee. And I saw sort of arcane practices by which documents became
classified and it's troubling. It's really the root of the whole problem. And this is, as Senator Wyden said, this is not a partisan issue. This is a completely bipartisan concern, and there's bipartisan
agreement that something needs to be done about it. Too much information is being
classified without reason, and too much information
is classified at a higher level than it needs to be. And look, there are practical
reasons why this happens. It's people often talk about
this issue and wanna go to the darkest corner
of the room and suggest that overclassification
is all about certain government employees wanting to hide embarrassing information. That's, while that might happen
on an isolated situation, the root of the problem is
the incentive scheme in place. It doesn't reward anybody
for classifying at a lower level or erring on the
side of not classifying. The incentive scheme pushes
to classify to classify, and to classify higher
than possibly necessary. And that's just, that's been, that's inherent in our government system. It's been a problem that's been recognized by
groups that have studied this going back to the Moynihan Commission
of the 1990s there, the Commission on Protecting and Reducing Government Secrecy. They made recommendations
about how to try to deal with this issue, the
9/11 commission report in the early '00s addressed this issue. And then they're releasing a
Declassification Act of 2010 that was specifically intended to address this issue and still it persists. And as we've discussed already, this has real practical implications. It causes damage. For government policymakers that means that they don't necessarily
get all the information they need to make sound policy decisions. In terms of security, over classification
actually encourages leaks, seems counterintuitive,
but that's the case. When information that should
get out and doesn't get out that emboldens, encourages people to
leak that information. We've seen that over and over and over. And so transparency at
transparency as to those matters, that should be transparent, actually discourages
people from leaking things that shouldn't be transparent. As John mentioned in his testimony, overclassification can limit innovation. And as with the testimony about the Air Force leaders complaining that over classification
is limiting their ability to develop technologies, to
deploy the private sector, to develop technologies that they need because overclassifications
information prevents them from sharing that
information with the private sector partners who are
key to these efforts to develop the next generation technology, we need to protect our country. These are all real
world problems that need to be addressed. And then the question, that's fine, Ken. We see the problem. What is the answer? That's a tough question, but the answer is that
we need to step back, look at this whole process
and put new processes in place that do a few things. One, don't just say, okay, something is a source or
method and therefore it needs to be protected to the highest grade. We need to distinguish
contained sources and methods that are super sensitive. Those are less sensitive. And those that really
aren't sensitive at all. And classify, according
to that delineation. You need to be able to accept
some risk in this process. This goes back to my point
about the incentive scheme, we need to be able to assume
there's gonna be a little bit of risk for the
purpose of transparency. There's always a conflict, always will be inherent
conflict between transparency and the need to protect secrecy, but we need to accept some level of risk. And we see the consequences if we don't. So we need to sort of take on
that tension, acknowledge it, and then try to build
processes and help us to manage that tension. And look, I think I'm very
happy to hear the comments by everybody so far today
about the importance of this issue. We need to reenergize the
effort to crack this nut. It's a really difficult one, and it's one that's all
too often put at the bottom of the priority list, when other crises are coming to the floor. And it's hard for the executive
branch to sort of keep the eye on that. but I think we need to do that. And I'm hopeful that the
PIDB can play a leadership role in that effort. And I appreciate the
opportunity to have done so for the last seven
years, but thanks very much. I just tuned out. I no longer see myself on the
screen, which is a blessing, but I don't know if I tuned
out for you guys or not. - No.
- We can still see you. We can still see you, Ken. And even more importantly,
we can still hear you, so. - There you go. Okay. So thanks so much for letting
me say my piece, and thanks to everybody on this
call for the good work you're doing for a very important cause. - And thank you, Ken, for all of the work that you've done, you've been such a, such an incredible
advocate on these issues and particularly the
expertise that you've brought on the questions of, again,
incentive structures, why people over classify, what this looks like and how we fix it. 'Cause that's really the
hard part is trying to solve the practical problem. So thank you for
everything that you've done and we hope we can continue to work with you as things go forward. - [Ken] Thanks as do I. - So I think the next thing we're gonna do is turn to some questions that we've gotten from the public. And so I think that we are, we're ready as at this
point to look at comments that we've gotten and
answer your questions again, just to repeat for a third time, if you have questions during
the course of the meeting, please email Pidb@nara.gov
and we'll have staff monitoring that email so that we can get to your questions today. But we're, I think we'll
turn over to Robert who has been taking those questions. - Yes, hello, I've got some questions that we've been receiving. The first one is what is the purpose of the executive agent? - [Mark] Well. - [Alyssa] So I'm gonna
take that one. Yeah. - I was gonna say the, I think the first is probably
been a pretty clear on that that one would start to
talk about today on that. But as I've mentioned in my personal life, in the Senate, I said it
a little earlier today and we talk about that. It's a coordination role essentially, and you need some agency
that is going to provide leadership on the whole classification declassification system for
developing, for implementing, for managing the system, it's not designed to
control what information gets classified or declassified,
that's not the role. And I think another
opportunity for us to make sure that we use declassify that, this entity would not be controlling to information agencies, essentially classify and declassify, but they still need
those agencies in the way of the address to declassification
as an enterprise system. So this executive agent would work with an executive committee. Together they'll design new practices on how to streamline and modernize the classification
declassification system, how we can integrate advanced technologies into the process and then
how we can align them across those agencies. So it's crucial they have this
executive agency for reform. Modernizing the system is complicated because it involves so many agencies. So it's gonna require
that dedicated leader who has authority and has
the responsibility to effect the change and get it done. - Okay. Very good. Another question that
might allow you to touch on some points you've already discussed, but here goes, how does the PIDB recommend
implementing technology to improve classification
and declassification? - So I can take that one. So we really think that
technology is a critical component for modernizing the system. We think that artificial
intelligence and machine learning and advanced
technologies can really do significant work in
the space that is not being done currently. And our sense is that
the DNI in particular has the proven leadership
abilities to coordinate new processes that might
involve things like AI and machine learning. And they can actually
come up with solutions that help modernize the classification and declassification
process to make it more efficient and effective. Our sense right now from a lot of the work that we have done and we
did in sort of advance of the report was that the
intelligence community has had a lot of experience in thinking about these technologies. And they actually have
an ability to be sort of a change agent in the
space because there are things that they're looking
at for other purposes already. So for us, this is an area
that could really benefit from that, from new technology. Our sense also is that
DNI in particular has the technical expertise and the access to advanced technologies in place to facilitate information sharing. So getting at that, exactly that problem
that we discussed before, which is the fact that people
can't share across agencies, that they actually have to carry paper. Again, that's not something
that's acceptable in longterm. And we think that the DNI
can really do a good job in thinking through what
those processes look like and making sure that they
have access to that all of the different agencies
that have classified information have access
to relevant technology so that doesn't happen. Cody and I also have
experience developing, deploying and managing secure multi-agency cloud-based
enterprise systems. So if you think about
Eyesight or the email system, the secure communications network JWICS, the idea of all of those
is that there are ways of actually connecting
the intelligence community and dealing with classified
information and the fact that they actually have
the expertise in deploying those systems seems to us that we can use that expertise for declassification and classification systems as well. - Okay. Thank you. It looks like there's a
followup question on that. Can these new technologies
be used with all types of records, textual, still
photos, films, videos, audio recordings, and electronic records? - So I think actually
that's one of the huge new areas for development. In fact, that may be
something that's easier to do from a technology standpoint
than it would be in person. There's a yes, they absolutely can be. And I think that we are, those technologies are exactly very, you wanna go on those things, they can recognize similarities and patterns along things
like images in a way that is much easier in the
long term than actually having human review. So from a practical
standpoint, we think that is a, that's a significant
area for an opportunity, but it's something that
someone really needs to get their hands around to
make sure it is all sort of different sources of
information coming in, not just texts. - [Mark] Thank you. Here's another one from
a different direction. Why did the board not also recommend an EA for classification? - If you don't mind we I'd just hit it off because we talked about
that a little bit as well. The board's vision, what we envisioned was an executive agent to
address modernization of both the classification and
the declassification. Those are the integrated
process, governors were in fact. So modernization is gonna lead to more accurate precise classification and declassification decisions. If we reformed the front
end of the procedure, so the support, the information sharing and the security for the operations, but it's also gonna reduce the volume, facilitate the automation
of data requiring declassification in the future. So the (indistinct) is gonna support the entire life cycle of the record from the political classification
to tapping the users sensitive information from
the time of its inception, through archiving,
declassification review, and the ultimate released to the public. So it's all there. - [Mark] Very good. You got another question, does say DNI have authority
outside of the IC? - I touched a little bit on this, but I think Trey has just joined the board and he actually may have read up on this issue as well. So maybe Trey, if you,
could you answer that one? That'd be great. - Well, I can certainly
amplify what I think you all already said, which is the DNI already
coordinates policy and is responsible for the
implementation of that policy, even beyond the intelligence community. That includes implementing the use of secure communications technology across the executive branch and the DOD also has a role to play in
security clearances across all of government. DNI policies, I believe already got the electronic communication and sharing of classified information between the IC and non-IC civilian agencies, including, about way of example, the Department of Health
and Human Services and the Office of Assistant Secretary for Preparedness and Response. - Yeah, I think that's
exactly right. Trey. I think they didn't, the DNI has also done some
other things that, for example, they developed the first intelligence community information
environment data strategy, which provides a framework
for applying advanced analytics and big data
techniques to store process and manage classified information while protecting sensitive
sources and methods. So this is a really
safe that they have been in on exactly that point. And I think that that's the
important piece to understand. So unlike NARA and ISOO
that ODNI really has a structure in place to think about these kinds of technologies. They've been doing a lot
of work in that space, and they're just trusted within the IC, which is
an important component. I think of whoever takes on this role. - [Mark] Okay. What is a federated
declassification system and how would it work? - I'll be happy to try to answer this one without using too much gibberish on that, but like the intention of the federated declassification
system would be one that allowed agencies to share technology and applications in order
to accomplish a similar task that the agencies might have. It would require the agencies
to work into a common goal and work with one another to accomplish those goals. It's also gonna require
that agencies develop a declassification work
process and operate across the agencies where they have matching and overlapping equity
interests, and information. So a lot of it is you see, is the coordination of the
working together aspect of that. They're gonna need
comprehensive data standards that will facilitate
technology integration. And that would be into the
declassification process and make that process more
effective and efficient. It's also gonna allow them
to have budgets that are more effective in order
to be able to research and invest and acquire the technology that's gonna be such an important underlying
part of all of this. And in essence, it'll
facilitate and approve, and standardize the
declassification decisions. So that'll be a more precise
decision as a result. It will protect the information that truly requires protection, LD
classified information that's no longer sensitive, that they can be publicly released. So that's the basis of it. - [Mark] And coming to the end of what's been received today. Will this federated system
of approach be too costly? Will necessitate a wholesale reallocation of resources away from
critical mission activities? - I'll take a crack at that one. I don't think it should. These efforts can be and
often are effective and not only reducing cost, but
equally importantly, increasing efficiency
in government spending on information security,
including technology acquisition, safeguarding, and IT systems can be like any other government program, duplicative, and occasionally uncoordinated. Since spending is still so agency-centric and therefore occasionally siloed, forcing agencies to coordinate
work with one another, I think would be a benefit for government and for those upon government,
which would be the taxpayer. - [Mark] Okay. Thank you very much. That's what's come in today. So I think that concludes
our questions for today. - Well, wonderful. Well, thank you. So I think that's a, that may be the end of our
public meeting component. I think we're, again, happy
to take additional questions. If folks have questions they
wanna submit, please again, feel free to submit
them and we can respond on our public blog. And I guess since we're coming to the end of our public meeting, I wanna thank all of the
folks who have spoken today. So on behalf of the board
and all of our members, certainly the Archivist
of the United States, David Ferriero, for opening our meeting today, Senator
Ron Wyden for speaking about the 2020 Declassification
Reform Act and really the thing that we were all focused on, which is the need to reform the classification system generally. And most importantly, I wanna thank all of you for joining us
today and for continued, your continued interest in reforming the classification and
declassification system. We talked a lot today about
the need for education. And I think everyone who has participated in our meeting today, everyone who has joined
virtually has a role to play in that space as well. So we recognize that there
are certainly advocates in the space on declassification that have important voices that we need
to make sure that we amplify, and also that can play an important role in education as well. So thank you again for joining us. Please stay engaged,
please read and respond on our blog again, follow
up if you have questions. And I think with that, I think we will close the meeting today. Thank you so much. - Thank you.
- Thank you, Alyssa. - [Mark] That concludes our conference. I thank you for using AT&T event services. You may now disconnect.
