Professors Leaving Academia: Why They Quit and Where They Go

okay Jen I'm excited to talk with you today  about a topic that I think both of us hear a   fair amount about which is why professors even  tenur professors leave Academia and where they   go once they do I'm sure this is something you've  encountered it's fascinating because it's one of   the things not now but like a decade ago when I  was newer in this uh field it was uh surprising to   me because relatively quickly in my business like  almost immediately I was working with professors   who were trying to leave Academia or reshift  things in their career maybe leaving Academia   was something they envisioned and I was like what  but like you have the dream job like and since   of course like since now it's just like of course  but I've I encounter folks over the years who are   like what you work with professors right they go  through that same realization that I did so yeah   I think it's an excellent topic Tori to tackle  of like why Prof why do professors leave Academia   and the other thing we can talk about too is and  then what do they do next right yeah well I think   the goals being to normalize that this happens  in case there's anyone watching this right now   who is faculty saying okay am I allowed to do  this is it's okay very much happens even though   I know we tell the story that it's the end of the  rainbow and you've finally gotten there yeah it's   okay if it's not as rosy as it seemed and we'll  talk about how that plays out with the folks who   we see and that folks have options right speaking  to where they go my hope is that we can provide   some optimism and sense of opportunity for folks  who are in that position and want to make a move   yeah and to be explicit you don't have to feel  guilty about this right forget this survivors   guilt stuff but I got the job I should stay here  and suffer for all those phds who wanted faculty   jobs and didn't get them well and it's really  funny side note this morning I was reading   an article on employer loyalty and how employer  loyalty has changed over the past 20 30 years with   the recognition that there's this belief in tenure  that okay my employer is always going to take care   of me and if that doesn't always hold true it may  warrant a re-examination of the relationship you   have with your employer and that sense you've sort  of given them that power to create space for you   for the rest of your career if that doesn't play  out you have to take some of the power back in   finding your career path so I do think that sense  of loyalty that might have looked very different   in the 70s is now something that's worth looking  at and worth folks saying hey I don't have to be   loyal just for the sake of blind loyalty they're  real dynamic next to this that I need to navigate   yeah okay so let's say person listening is like  you're right Tori I am in charge of my career okay   why are some reasons that I would consider leaving  Academia you start yeah well and I think we we're   talking about some of them we're alluding to some  of them but let's actually make them clear one is   just the reality doesn't match the expectations  you have this belief maybe pedal to you by who   got their faculty jobs in the 70s of what it might  look like what the job might look like what the   security might look like and the reality is you're  saddled with a ton of administrative work you're   teaching over zoom and don't have any student  interaction the research pressures continue and   continue and continue right funding gets harder  and harder to obtain and so these things that you   thought would pale in comparison to your interest  in your topic are actually stacking up in terms   of the benefits and considerations not being so  good I also hear from faculty the amount of just   navigation they have with their University admin I  don't think is something that is talked about it's   sort of this impression that there's this Panacea  and I think that weight is something that doesn't   match the expectations when you look at it in  reality I'm curious if you found the same thing   talking to folks J yeah totally I mean we could  talk on this in so many different ways with like   the Eros of Faculty governance right like faculty  members just have so much less say than they might   have assumed coming in uh you know when you're in  your PhD program you're doing it at an R1 or an   R2 to use you know us kind of parland here where  your professors were teaching one or two courses a   semester and suddenly you're in a five5 situation  maybe you got hired as a 33 but then but anyway   right um also maybe you did your uh your degree  PhD on your postto at like a bustling college   town or a big city right where a lot of our most  prestigious kind of largest research institutions   are and now you're I'll be unkind but you're not  in those places and maybe that's not great for   you maybe I mean right we could go on and on and  on and on and obviously you and I are white women   talking about this but there's sort of people who  live in other bodies who where there's parts of   the world that parts of the US parts of Canada  that are less welcoming to them right uh and   who they are as peoples yeah Etc right so what  are we so these are I yes I'm veering into other   categories but I think generally we're talking  about here I guess two things right I'm connecting   the the job isn't what I thought it would be  in a negative way and also I'm bringing up a   second reason of like this is not the life I want  for myself so let's talk talk more about that the   life reasons well and it's funny there's the the  reality doesn't match expectations this is not the   life I want there was also a third one you were  alluding to that I just want to call out I'm in   an actively toxic work environment right and that  happens a fair amount in Academia unfortunately   and so acknowledging it and saying no if you're in  a toxic workplace you don't have to stay on that   life reasons point on that second one I found  that folks if they move to say an isolated town   for their job their partner their kids their  family mooved with them there might be a point   where their partner says I don't want to live  here anymore like we moved here great I want to   do other things I want to be closer to my family I  want to be in a big city and so the limited nature   of that one position means that it doesn't hold  up very well to life wants life changes and so   folks who then want to make a move because of Life  circumstances changing may need to change their   workplaces as well even though they have that  faculty position that may be going well it doesn't   necessarily play nicely with changing life demands  and the fact that you may have a partner or other   other life wants that you have beside just this  faculty position you're not that too totally   so this might have nothing to do with the actual  job but I you know I'll give an example that I've   heard more than once of you know it was great I  was having a great time you know and the kids were   like enrolled in good schools Etc but my partner  could never get a job like years later still he   she there you know still never found work and  like it just didn't work for our family anymore   yeah it's the two- body problem that I think we  talk about when folks are finding jobs and then   assume that if they found a job it's resolved no  that changes right like our demands from our life   demands wants needs expectations standards all  those things change and so it's unreal realistic   to expect that a job that actually doesn't have a  lot of flexibility right in other corporate jobs   you can in corporate jobs you can renegotiate you  can sort of redefine the terms Academia is like no   this is your offer it's not going to change and so  if your needs change it may get tougher to square   with what you're being handed yeah so what do we  got here we got like a giant category of like life   right like why you know life we got this also like  pretty big category of like the job just doesn't   it's not that the job necessarily sucks but it's  not really matching up what I want in my career   um then we've got what else toxicity toxicity  terrible work conditions a I mean you and I   have so many we have so many stories like we have  heard from so many people about this right like   it's it's really and I of we I I'm sure both of  us would acknowledge that bad working conditions   are possible anywhere and everywhere obviously  capitalism right hellscape Etc but Academia is   this particularly interesting Dynamic where it's  frequently I think standard this is generally true   is super hierarchical right super hierarchical  which kind of sets up a certain dynamic in   relationships um it's very competitive there are  right and related to that super scarce resources   uh you know work hours just there's more and more  work to be done less and less bodies to do it even   so even if like nobody's trying to be an [ __ ]  it's sort of built into the system a lot of the   time I'll stop talking it's funny it's making me  think of uh from my PhD research this notion of   why chimp hierarchies form and chimpan have these  fruiting trees that are monopolize and varying in   quality and so the dominant is going to go over  there and sit on the tree and basically the good   tree and be like these are my good foods and all  the rest of you are staying off of there and so   it's got this hierarchical element to it that as  you're describing that you're like okay resources   are scarce and monopolize I'm like oh my gosh  it's like the chips right there's a dynamic where   Academia just because of the way the resources are  that they're scarce that they're easily monopolize   it fuels that hierarchy and fuels a potential for  abuses of power and toxicity and so for folks who   are in those environments it's okay to leave  it's okay to leave it's okay to ask for more   and it's okay to recognize the toll that that  takes right if you're not leveraging therapy   like Leverage that as a resource because it can  help you just recognize the toll that that might   be taking on your health your mental health your  physical health and that it's okay to leave that   type of environment absolutely and let me give  a an example here so often we can you know folks   like us get annoyed like me get annoyed about  like toxic tenur professors that will never   be fired right like we you know we hear about  these folks in the news all the time in all the   disciplines right but imagine so let's um stop  focusing on that one person who may or may not   deserve to be fired according to me but imagine  if that person is your colleague and has been   your colleague for years and potentially is going  to be your colleague for another decades right I   mean it's reasonable for you to start thinking  like maybe that you need to remove yourself if   nobody is going to remove the problem yeah and I  think assuming movement assuming others will fix   it is unrealistic with a system that doesn't  have to respond to for-profit needs right in   a for-profit company there's some amount of okay  is this person actually delivering are they able   to retain their their employees are they able to  deliver on objectives there's a little bit more   notion of accountability not always but there's  more accountability where in Academia particularly   once you've got tenure that accountability is  extremely limited and so it's easy for someone to   stick around even if they're not a healthy ad to  the the workplace culture yeah and tell us what's   another reason sorry you're already alluding to it  dollars or yeah it's Canadian do dollarss I'm sure   you've seen this with folks leaving to pursue more  money certainly something I've seen definitely I   mean there is a vast array of salaries right  what people are compensated in Academia and   I think it's not I know it's not true 100% of  the time that if you leave Academia you will   make more money but it is often true you know that  is my sense you know speaking of folks in the US   and Canada dep depend right it's often true well  and what I would say is just that you have more   control right when you're a faculty member you're  negotiating power maybe you can go out and get a   counter offer or go write a book or do something  public that somehow gets you more salary from   your University but you don't have an infinite  realm of flexibility where once you move out of   Academia and look at other options available to  you and which we'll talk about you can prioritize   salary or other elements of this like location  and interesting work and all that stuff and so   you just have more choice where really within  a university you have a couple of universities   that you might be able to speak to and you have  a little bit of degrees of freedom to be able to   adjust your salary or benefits maybe you could get  yourself a shorter sabatical window right shorter   window to next sabatical but your negotiating  power for salar is often limited because you're   working with a nonprofit and they don't have  infinite resources to give yeah and what happens   and this is not rare phenomenon is that professors  let's say probably mostly women professors who   realize at a certain point that they are making  less money you know as professors with X number of   years in experience in their Department than the  brand new assistant professor is getting hired at   why because right salary gets index to that very  first offer that you took and since maybe you only   ever had one s write one offer you're you you're  just stuck making anyways yeah so like anyway I   just want to acknowledge that there's folks out  there listening watching who might be thinking   like well if you're in this for the money like but  that it's literally sometimes people are just not   making enough money especially when we consider  the amount of debt that's common uh maybe less so   for scientists but you know it's really common for  folks to have like six figure debt levels right I   mean Academia is is a playground for the rich I  hate to say it right so something you just need   more money and you're not going to be able to get  it with you're not even keeping up with inflation   they're not even you know what forget raises it  doesn't even keep up I'm ranting well it it's   just in other areas you know whether corporate  or small business whatever it is the pay has to   remain more competitive to attract employees in  Academia there's that scarcity and that bias of   folks coming from already affluent backgrounds  where they don't have to pay to attract the   talent and so why should they right where in those  other organizations they need to have competitive   pay they may need to have Equitable pay the tech  industry was getting a lot of pressure around pay   equity and so now does all sorts of analyses and  thought presses to get closer they're still not   there but because of that extern internal pressure  they have more accountability where universities   really don't right University pay is not something  at the faculty level that gets a lot of visibility   there are definitely you know unions grad students  post STS who will go out and make visibility for   pay but at The Faculty level it's not often an  active conversation and so doesn't get as much   scrutiny as much accountability as pay equity  in other Industries and before we move on to um   case where did folks go let's let's talk briefly  about kind of these external factors that nobody   predicts um and I know that you had mentioned  in our like little past discussion the impact   of the pandemic and how that may had people kind  of rethinking same more well and it's something   that I saw a few years ago it's changing now but  still exists which is for folks who really enjoyed   teaching that in-person classroom that feeling of  seeing folks eyes light up as they're getting a   new concept or idea teaching over Zoom might not  create that and same as you're saying if folks   are teaching these five five course loads they may  not get time to enjoy teaching they may not enjoy   it the way that they had thought and so there are  so many other places where they can apply those   teaching skills that don't have to be in that type  of setting and so I think a number of faculty in   particular following the pandemic felt that that  Zoom teaching just wasn't holding up to their end   of the bargain yeah yeah and the other external  factor that I'm seeing so we're as we're recording   this it is the February 2024 and you know we're  a few months into the genocide and I think that   there are some people in universities who are  realizing things about their colleagues whether   their colleagues are saying things or not saying  anything at all and that is just weighing really   heavily on some folks and quite understandable  that you might be looking around thinking like   are these the people that I want to be you know  Prof in professional colleagues with for the next   few decades maybe not yeah and it's funny the way  I refer to this is often looking for colleagues   where there's a values match there might be some  areas you disagree that are not core values but if   you disagree with your colleagues on core values  there's going to be a lot of room for that to get   clicked right where if it's okay we're agreed on  core values but then we have a couple areas we   disagree on implementation or other ideas that's  more tractable right it's not to say you should   look for workplaces where everyone's the same but  some of those core values it's really hard to be   in a workplace where there's not alignment and so  giving yourself permission to choose a workplace   where there is alignment the last reason I want  to call out just something I've seen just to   normalize it in case other folks are feeling it  is the lack of advancement funnily enough once   you get tenure the only advancement is here's some  more overhead work here are some more committees   maybe you can go Dean or something like that but  the type of advancement is not necessarily the   thing you enjoyed it's more administrative work  uh and so folks feel like there's no new learning   their work has gotten stale they've taught the  same course for 15 years they've done the same   research they've gotten the grants and so that  feeling of I want something new is strong when   folks feel that they've had that staleness or that  lack of advancement so I want to make sure to call   that out as well yeah I love that because one of  the very first stories you know that I that I came   across uh with the professor leaving Academia  was I don't know like the specifics here but   that was basically her message was that the job  was was fine it wasn't that the job sucked it's   just that she was kind of bored and it's not even  that she was looking for other opportunities but   that that other opportunities came to her and  she lit up with the possibilities right so she   was it was like small are recruited she was  recruited by the excitement of outside so it   wasn't a this sucks I'm burning it down peace out  good luck [ __ ] it was oh oh that's exciting well   so I feel like we're starting transition to where  folks go anything else you want to call out about   why folks leave before we talk about where we've  seen faculty members go once they leave Academia   I mean I guess one thing to just mention you  know given the Zeitgeist is politics and in   the US in Canada too right there are certain  States and provinces where more recent changes   have made it more difficult for certain people  to live and raise their families uh so yeah you   know like all fair gosh it's interesting I was  thinking about values match with workplace but   values match with where you live too right and  being asked to live in a place where you don't   feel comfortable where you don't feel that there  are folks where you have similar values around you   it's really challenging and it's something that  I think is asked of academics because there's so   little locational flexibility and so I think it's  an important call out yeah definitely I mean if   you're raising a trans kid and you don't want to  you know live in Texas that's fair yeah yeah it's   challenging so where do people go where do people  go on that heavy note well and so it's interesting   we've talked about a few of the reasons folks are  leaving where we've seen folks go I want to call   out that sometimes folks who are tenure track or  tenur faculty sometimes they take the same paths   I see fresh phds take when they leave Academia  so they may go into one of the job titles that   is common a data scientist or ux researcher they  may come in at a different level they might be a   senior data scientist or a senior ux researcher  but faculty shouldn't think that those paths   are unavailable to them I have seen faculty move  into those roles again it requires a conversation   around what level is commensurate with your  skills and that's something that faculty need   to navigate with the type of role and type of  organization they're looking at but those types   of paths that we see brand new phds going out into  Academia and taking those are available to faculty   too from what I've seen yeah so that's great and  that's often you know for the social scientists   scientists uh you even some Humanities folks  could go into those kind of industry business   roles I see a lot of folks moving into government  and the government is a really interesting place   for phds because you know the cultures vary but  it will it it may seem feel familiar in terms   of bureaucracy and administration right um but  there's a much more movement in government so   uh an interesting thing in terms of professors  specifically is that a lot of the time they will   have more work experience and that kind of thing  that metric matters for government so they may   be able to enter at a higher kind of grade right  I I don't know what the numbers are but there'll   be like a 14 instead of a 10 or whatever and  and so that goes for the US Canada um and so   government I think is a really attractive place  with strong salaries and benefits packages right   and and kind of permanence uh that is familiar  and attractive to folks uh Tori back to you what   else well I'm personally curious before we move  off that what's the sort of role or job title   that you see folks go into government just because  that's the area where I've placed the fewest folks   and I like what you're saying about like hey with  your years of experience you can actually slot in   in a great place what type of roles are folks  going into yeah so lots of like research roles   of course I mean government is also uh you know  has pis but I think just maybe a little bit less   of that happening um for more senior uh folks but  yeah plenty of research of various kinds analysts   uh in the in the Canadian uh federal government uh  sort of economists and social scientist right this   kind of analytical research work is very common  policy analysts as well um that's common I think   Communications generally is super common you know  obviously this all depends um on on your expertise   one of my clients Works in HR um but you think HR  she does training and development right like those   are of in housed and of course government has  huge Departments of all of that too uh what am   I missing here I think there's a lot of folks that  work in kind of programming governments deliver a   lot of services and programs that kind of build  uh resources and so a lot of phds Might slot   themselves into that and of course there are in  some of of the ones I've mentioned some of folks   are subject matter experts so you're an expert  in you know social policies of various kinds   immigration whatever right there's places where  those are great fits for folks um that have skills   in in whatever they're in um as as well as folks  that work closer to the politics in this um which   is and that can include scientists as well like  lobbying for the interest of of universities and   science uh with um with governments at different  levels as well as both in Canada and the US there   are these the funding bodies the NF NSF the NIH in  Canada we've got the tri agencies there are phds   who work uh in those roles uh to make the funding  ecosystem run smoothly I'm probably missing things   but that that covers a lot of ground here yeah  so many opportunities and the only other one that   came to mind as you're thinking that was also the  communication side communicating maybe technical   insights scientific insights to the public and  doing that through government and ear nonprofits   also something I've seen one thing I want to  call out that I see more often among faculty   pursuing other opportunities than the fresh phds  not zero right but more often is pursuing one's   own business so freelance say some freelance  contracts Consulting starting one's own business   often faculty have more of that opportunity to  sit at the helm right to actually be the one   who's steering the ship and so moving into one's  own business can be more natural not to say it's   not still challenging but it is something that I  see more faculty comfortable doing because they've   been steering the ship for a little while longer  and they want to keep having that Independence and   autonomy yeah and there's definitely profession  professors um you know this is more common among   certain science Fields where you might spin off  a company right from something that's started in   your lab uh so that it happens you might end up  hiring all your same postto and gr students right   as staff members now sometimes faculty do these  kinds of things and keep their jobs as faculties   because you know depending there might be ways of  doing that but sometimes they leave uh completely   take their IP with them well and it's funny if I  were thinking of a method to take for any faculty   who might be watching this video and saying to  themselves man some of this resonates for me I   don't like that what my life is getting stepped  on by my current work environment I'm feeling   like this is stale for me I want more money I  would say the first step is always can I craft   something from where I am right can I craft a new  Consulting Venture that allows me new learning and   more money can I find a way to make the the place  that I'm living work for myself my family whoever   is included and that if then you try that and  doesn't work then you've got the choice of okay   I can move away from this I can move physically  I can move to a new role so I often like to   encourage that folks try to craft from where they  are and then move elsewhere if they're not totally   done if they're like you know what I've had it I'm  out like Rage Quit okay then it's time to move on   but if you're at the point of H something's not  really working working there may still be room   to iterate and experiment where you are before  then taking the choice to do something different   and those are all options that are available  absolutely ior I think it's great advice for   the folks who are not not swimming in the toxic  wastewaters yeah hopefully ever yeah I think   that's a a great thing and the the dream scenario  is that you are you collaborate you work with uh   you consult with while you're a professor you know  with people people and organizations uh and then   you get recruited directly by them and you may not  ever have to write a dreaded resume you might just   get to go straight into an awesome opportunity  because the people already know you in your work   well and so if I were going to wrap up what we've  talked about because we've covered a lot of points   here you know the points just being for faculty  it's okay to look for something beyond what you   have if it's not fulfilling for you if it's ly  toxic it's okay to ask for more folks are doing   that they're asking for more and they're finding  new opportunities that fulfill them that have a   mission-driven commitment that pay them better and  so don't ever feel faculty that you have to stay   stuck somewhere that isn't serving you you very  much got options available to you that you can   pursue at any point in your career and yes you can  leave mid semeer master I'm not a labor lawyer but   yes yes you can so oh my gosh folks feeling like  they have to stay out of some sense of needing   to finish right it's hard to acknowledge okay  I want to close out here incomplete but similar   to PhD thesis which are never finished they're  abandoned you might have to abandon one career   to make the door open to something new and so it's  okay to do that even if it doesn't feel like you   finished everything you want to yeah I love the  sense of control and forward momentum yes all   right let's end with that control and for momentum  woohoo good luck everybody yes good luck everyone

Channel: Academic Exit

Views: 5,242

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Id: xeVzZZtOHzo

Length: 30min 41sec (1841 seconds)

Published: Thu Feb 29 2024