Prof. John Mearsheimer on the Israel Lobby's Grip on U.S. Politics

[Music] now you wrote a very consequential book with uh your colleague Professor Steven Wald in 2006 entitled Israel Lobby which sought to document for me it was a real piece of not just scholarship but journalism to document the power of this Lobby inside the United States the reason why we always defend Israel why we feed Israel more money than any other country there have been a couple times in the past where presidents Reagan and Bush 41 wanted to confront israels and and and and had some acts of resistance but they were uh met with a lot of accusations of anti-Semitism and other things and and since then no one's really done it and your book sought to explain why why is the United States so afraid to confront Israel it seems to me that in addition to the Israel lobby as you described it in your book we now have a growing sector of the Republican Party who will acknowledge very explicitly that the reason they regard is as vital and Paramount to support and defend Israel is because their religious ideology their theology compels them to see Israel as a blessed Nation by God as a nation that sort of stands above all others that they have a moral obligation to defend Israel how important was that in 2006 that motivation and how important is it now when you look at just how much time Congress spends holding hearings on Israel and talking about Israel and enacting policies to Israel going to Israel speaking to the Israeli canet how do you see that motive in Washington well there's really two things that have happened here Glenn one is that Israel's Behavior has become more outrageous with the passage of time and that means that the lobby has to work harder and harder each year to defend Israel they push politicians hard each year and the end result is that politicians have to dance to the Lobby's Tunes today in ways they didn't when we wrote the book I think that the lobby is more powerful today than it was when we wrote the book of course we wrote the article in 2006 and the book in 2007 but that's one part of the story the other part of the story is that the Republicans understand that the Democratic Party is basically split on Israel the progressive wing of the democratic party broadly defined uh is quite hostile to Israel at this point in time and thinks Israel is committing genocide in Gaza and the Republicans see this as an opportunity to get full support from the lobby and to turn the lobby against the Democratic party so almost every Republican in the land is going to Great LA trying to kiss up to the lobby uh and Joe Biden is really in a very difficult position as a result of this because he's deeply fearful that he will alienate the lobby if he plays hard ball with Israel but at the same time he understands if he doesn't do something to show that he can get semi tough with the Israel he doesn't have to do much but just a little bit he can then win over the progressives who are for abandoning him in droves but the fact is he's caught between a rock and a hard place and there's not much he can do to win and the Republicans fully understand this and for that reason uh the Republicans have embraced the lobby uh in ways that we have not seen in the past it is really amazing all over the Democratic world all over the world entirely people are increasingly opposed to the Israeli uh war in Gaza they are increasingly horrified by the things they're seeing there they want this war over they've been cutting diplomatic ties with Israel recognizing the Palestinian State and yet here in the United States we're about to have a presidential campaign and the presidential debate where the two primary candidates are just going to be arguing with one another about who is more pro Israel there'll be no debate at all about this incredibly consequential and polarizing and costly policy they'll both be fighting with one another over who can be more pro Israel and I guess that in a sense has been what American politics has been for the last several decades and I do want to just push a little bit or not push but just kind of Reas the question about obviously there's a finance pro-israel Lobby there are American Jews who feel a connection to Israel the way lots of minority groups feel a connection to the country of their origin whether it's the place they come from when they immigrate or uh Italy or uh Ireland whatever people have these kinds of uh connections but you do now have an extremely vocal and I think increasing factor in the Republican Party primarily that has caused this defense of Israel to become even more fortified and almost absolute which is this Evangelical and Theological motivation do you think that that is a significant or non-trivial factor now and why there's so much Congressional support for Israel it's non-trivial for sure but I don't think it's the key uh I think that most of the people who feel that way are Christian zionists and I think the Christian zionists are an important part of the Israel lobby as Steve and I articulated in our book but uh I think that it's American Jews who are deeply committed to Israel and want the United States to support Israel unconditionally who are really driving the train and a lot of this has to do with campaign contributions there's just no getting around that you noticed that the other day uh Donald Trump visited uh a group of Rich donors many of whom were Jewish and he told them that uh he would basically Deport the protesters he'd arrest them and Deport them uh that's how he'd deal with all the unrest on campuses I mean this is hard to believe that he said that in a serious way but he did and the question you want to ask yourself is why did he say that and the point is he wanted campaign contributions and that's why he was meeting which the with these rich donors so that is an important part of the story for sure and just to underscore the point within I think 48 Hours it was announced that Sheldon adon's Widow Sheldon adelon was a multi-billionaire who said his big issue was Israel who refunded the Republican party to keep it very pro-israel she announced or someone announced on her behalf that they were going to create a prot trump pack and that she would Finance it on a level never previously seen in presidential politics so the Adon whose primary issue by far is Israel obviously was responding to those statements by Trump where he said what you said as well is I will be the most pro-israel politician in our history but you want to remember Glenn as I said before and you have been saying in the conversation here Israel is in real trouble and these donors and these stor supporters of Israel these people in the lobby these institutions in the lobby they all understand that Israel is in deep trouble so they're willing to find politicians who will support Israel Hook Line and Sinker and give them all the support that they need to win and that's what's going on here and the Republicans again understand that the Democrats are in trouble on this issue from a political point of view because you have a huge number of Democrats uh who believe that Israel is committing genocide a huge number of Democrats believe that Israel is committing genocide and that the United States should move to cause a ceasefire right away and these rich donors do not want to hear that so they're willing to support people like Trump or make it clear to Biden that he better change his tune or else they'll go to Great Lengths to defeat him in the fall when you say Israel is in deep trouble that these pro-israel donors and activists understand that what do you mean by Israel is in deep trouble is it that they're involved in a war for which they have no ultimate outcome or plan is it that they're more isolated than ever on the world stage in the International Community or is it something else what kind of deep trouble do you consider them to be in well I'd make two arguments one is Israel is an apartheid state right his Human Rights Watch Amnesty International and velum which is the leading human rights organization in Israel have made clear all three of those human rights organizations have made clear uh in extensive reports that Israel is an aparte State and excuse me there just quickly so have many top Israeli officials including the former head of the Massad chosen by BB Netanyahu in 2015 who the month prior to October 7 published an article in the guardian saying Israel is now either very close to on the brink of or has become an apartheid state yes but that's very important Glenn because that's just evidence that leaders in Israel understand this phenomenon right they understand that Israel is an apartheid state and we all know what happened to South Africa and the question you have to ask yourself is whe whether or not you think this is sustainable over the long term and the answer is no and I think that Israeli leaders are looking for a way out to go back to what I was saying about ethnic cleansing before I believe that one of the principal reasons that the Israelis favor ethnic cleansing is because it solves the apartheid problem if you drive the Palestinians out of Gaza and then you drive the Palestinians out of the West Bank you have a clear majority of Israeli Jews running greater Israel and you don't have an apartheid state the problem you have now Glenn is that there are about 7.3 million Palestinians and 7.3 million Israeli Jews and the Israeli Jews dominate the Palestinians they oppress the Palestinians that's why it's an apartheid state and that is a huge problem for Israel moving forward but that's only one dimension of the trouble that they face the other dimension that they the other problem that they face is they're involved in a war where they are being accused of genocide and where lots of people believe they're committing genocide this is a huge problem and the problem in very important ways is not going to go away why is that the case you remember that in 2005 Ariel Chiron who was no shrinking violet pulled Israeli settlers and the Israeli military out of Gaza and he turned Gaza into a giant open air prison and why did he do that because he knew the place was a hornet nest and the last thing he wanted to do was stay in that Hornet's Nest he wanted to get out which he did well if you look at what's happened the Israelis are back in the Hornets Nest and is there any way of getting out I don't see it if they don't successfully ethnically cleanse Gaza and let's certainly hope that they don't that means the Israelis are going to have to run the place they're going to be in the place for the foreseeable future this is a disaster for them the public relations dimension of that alone is going to be a disaster this problem is not going to go away there'll be more protests on campuses in the fall uh and for as far as the eye can see as long as the Israelis are in Gaza doing terrible things to the Palestinians can you tell me how they're going to get out of there anytime soon I don't think so that means they're in deep trouble when you marry that to the apartheid problem Israel's future does not look Rosy yeah just on that Palestinian point the the the South Africa point and the concern about being labeled an apartheid state because it brought down the minority rule government of South Africa in part that really did happen because of this activist movement which found expression in large part on campuses in the west and in the United States demanding the the divestment and iing and boycotting of South Africa and you've seen um and I think a lot of people didn't realize it at the time a lot of pro Israel journalists and activists and politicians have been very very focused on American colleges for a long time they've been talking about what's going on there they've made it a priority they you know were celebrated when they forced out the presidents of Harvard and Penn for insufficiently cracking down on anti-israel speech they've enacted all kinds of laws Banning supporters of the boycott movement of Israel this has been something that they've been concerned about for a very long time and ironically the effort to crack down over all these many years is now spawning the opposite outcome that they wanted where you have these college students who a lot of them never even thought about Israel before this is the first time they're getting a look at the reality of Israel and its relationship the United States and I it seems very very difficult to imagine how this is going to get reversed especially if Israel is going to continue this war at least through the this year let me make two points just to back up what you're saying uh first of all when I was young and I think this is probably true when you were young too uh the mainstream media basically controlled the discourse about Israel and the lobby and Israel's supporters had huge influence on how Israel was portrayed in the mainstream media we now have an alternative media where people speak in an honest way about what Israel is doing to the Palestinians you're a manifestation of this phenomenon and there are lots of other outlets that people can go to where they can get a sense of what really has happened over time in Greater Israel and what's happening today and this causes huge problems for Israel and this problem wasn't present in the past the second thing you don't want to lose sight of is again when I was young and it was probably true when you were young if you came to a university like the University of Chicago or Georgetown University most of the students were white right there were a smattering of black students for sure but it was a very white campus there hadn't been a lot of in Immigration and furthermore there were not that many International students on campus what's happened over time is as a result of immigration the United States has become a much more heterogeneous society uh and you have all sorts of people who come from countries where there's no real sympathy for Israel and you also have lots of international students and very importantly you have lots of students from the Arab and Islamic world who come who get educated and who write books of their own who become professors who become the heads of Middle East centers at universities right so they are in a position to tell a story right that excuse me Glenn that contradicts the basic Israeli story about the creation of Israel and what's going on today and that message that those people are sending out gets picked up by people like you and people like me don't have to worry about being called by NPR or the New York Times who have no interest in talking to me because I know that people like you will call me up and we can come on this show we can talk about these things and millions of people can listen to us discuss the issue in a rational legal way this is a huge problem for the lobby and by the way one final point this is why the lobby is going after tick tock exactly I just wanted to and it is interesting because you know I've been I've known you for a long time we've been talking for a long time but I have absolutely noticed that in the past two years because of Ukraine and now Israel that you have a massive online following when you go and appear on these shows a lot of people are very interested in what you're saying and just that alone didn't exist even 10 or 15 years ago aside from the fact that people can now watch what is happening in Gaza because it's no longer centralized in the hands of a few tiny corporations who show you only what they want you to see or the government wants you to see I think the point about t is so important because and we cover this a lot on our show the proposed ban on Tik Tok has been lingering in Washington for years and it couldn't get past it was based on the argument that it gives China too much influence to our youth and what the reason why it suddenly got passed very quickly over in a bipartisan way within a couple of months after October 7th and the sponsors of the bill and the people who voted yes will tell you this is because they became convinced that the reason so many young people have turned against Israel is because Tik Tok allows too much information to circulate about the realities of what's going on in Gaza it allows too much information to circulate that makes people anti-israel and they went and they banned it like an incredible Act of censorship to ban an app that a third of the American population voluntarily chooses to use I just want to make one other point about the campus uh issue as well and in addition all the ones that you made which is um I also think that an extremely damaging trend for Israel in this regard is that there is a clear generational shift among younger Jews 40 and younger 30 and younger that not only don't feel a very strong connection to Israel but have become very alienated by it especially by its right-wing tilt by the kind of extremism the lack of plurality and at a lot of these protests as you all know there also are a lot of Jews a lot of anti-israel Jews and pro Palestinian Jews who have become part of this movement as well and it makes it as you said much more difficult to demonize these movements and demonize people who are critical of Israel's anti-semites you know I remember back in 2007 you and uh Professor Walt were you know they really set out to destroy your career and and all of media was calling you anti-semitic and your book anti-semitic and that's why I think a free internet is so crucial because you now have a counter to that that is by no means small and trivial there are millions of people who get their their their knowledge and their news from Independent Media that didn't exist 10 or 15 years ago and I think that has changed the dynamic so much Clint I want to make two points one is when Steve and I wrote the article and the book virtually all of our Defenders were Jewish virtually all of our Defenders including me at the time including you that's correct right second point I want to make is I think that is a result of the fact that the lobby defends Israel's success successfully at almost every turn has led the Israelis to become careless and as a result of this they've gotten themselves into a heap of a lot of trouble uh when you factor in the internet now what exactly am I saying there first of all with regard to the leaders you remember in the immediate aftermath of October 7th the Israeli leaders said some absolutely horrible things about the pales Ians and what they plann to do to the Palestinians they were calling them animals they were talking about killing all of them and so forth and so starving them starving them starving them exactly and and it was these were not low-level officials this was the top tier of leaders in the Israeli government the things they were saying they're just hard to believe uh that anyone would say those things publicly maybe privately but publicly and I remember there was a piece in haret U that was talking about the uh icj deliberations uh in the heg and the haret headline said the road to the ha is paved with comments by Israeli leaders because they were showing genocidal intent so that's one dimension the second dimension is Israeli soldiers have been taking videos of themselves doing horrible things to the Palestinians and ransacking Palestinian houses and so forth and so on and then posting those videos uh on the internet and of course they're ricocheting all over the world and you say to yourself why would you do this you know I think it's absolutely horrible that they would even do these things to begin with but to film yourself doing these horrible things and then post them somewhere on the Internet is a prescription for really serious trouble so the Israelis are documenting their own gross misbehavior and making it possible for people to see what they're doing and unsurprisingly given we have all these Outlets these alternative media Outlets like your show it's no surprise that Israel is in really deep trouble and this again is why the lobby is working over time these [Music] days thanks for watching this clip from system update our live show thats every Monday through Friday at 700 p.m. Eastern exclusively on Rumble you can catch the full nightly shows live or view the backlog of episodes for free on our Rumble page you can also find full episodes the morning after they air across all major podcasting platforms including Spotify and apple all the information you need is linked below we hope to see you there

Channel: Glenn Greenwald

Views: 26,740

Keywords: politics, us politics, politics today, civil liberties, civil rights and civil liberties, independent media, independent journalism, journalism, journalist, investigative journalism, free speech, freedom of speech, free speech rights, internet free speech

Id: dKXSReKRWaQ

Length: 22min 57sec (1377 seconds)

Published: Fri May 31 2024