Political Correctness and Vacuous Wokeness: Douglas Murray debates Sylvana Simons

free speech is the crucial idea which underpins our democracy we have the right to express ourselves freely no one has the right to tell us what we can and can't say I may as the saying goes disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it because put simply you can't have a truly free society without free speech but lately free speech has been under attack in this new age of so-called woke nosov hypersensitivity and identity politics greater restrictions have been imposed on what's considered acceptable to say it seems anyone can claim offense and silence those who put forward ideas they disagree with best-selling British author Douglas Murray believes we may be witnessing the slow death of free speech he spoke in Paris last month alongside left-wing Dutch politician Silvana Simmons I'm looking forward to discussing this I've been thinking about this subject for a long time and as was just mentioned we wrote a book that just came out in English German I think it's about Canton French and other languages called the madness of crowds which is an attempt to try to think about some of these things that are going on some of the what I described as crowd madness is the particularly online world encourages where very often we cancel people destroy people for saying something that everyone thought until 24 hours ago and we're making up and evolving a lot of our ethics and I'd say the metaphysics as we go along and it's very confusing however I think we can identify certain trends that are going on and one of them is that there are a set of what I describe as tripwire issues which any journalist citizen absolutely anybody if they just Nick one of these trip wires with their foot can find causes total career implosion they broadly speaking there there are a few others but I say they go come down roughly to gay everything to do with women particularly relations between sexes everything to do with race and absolutely everything to do with trans so I decided to do a chapter on each in my latest book to try to say what are the discussions we perhaps ought to be having and the ones that we're not having now I'm very conscious by the way that a lot of this I just throw this out for petechiae English speaks in the audience all English speakers were all people from english-speaking nations that a lot of these phenomena at the moment seem to me to be particularly prevalent in Britain America Canada Australia a number of other countries speaking across Europe do have bits of it but including France but almost nowhere nowhere as violently as in the countries I've just listed and that's worth bearing in mind I think is a very interesting questions why it's particularly virulent in these countries these discussions go on so so what is it that's going on well let me is it work do the opposite of straw Manning and try to steal man this because this is something I also happen to agree with it seems that one of the things we're trying to do is a very noble aspiration and it's something like this we're trying to come to a position where somebody with a competency indeed anybody with a competency in a particular area is never held back from achieving what they could achieve because of some characteristic so no young girl growing up anywhere thinks they can't be something because their ago nobody who's LGBT thinks they can't get anywhere because of their sexuality and nobody whatever their skin color is held back from anywhere because of their skin color that seems to be almost agreed upon I put it out there as I say cuz it's one that almost across political sides you could say is a common aspiration the problem that I try to identify and go into among other things is what if we're in trying to achieve that doing something that's making things an awful lot worse now it is as you all know incredibly unwise for any man to talk about women so I'm gonna completely dark that one today it's extremely unwise to talk about race if you have my skin color so I'm also going to duck that one and let me today just focus on the one crampon that I have on the edifice of social justice which is the G bit in LGBT and I'm going to treat myself to showing you an example of what I think is going on which is very unwise in the media just on this area now let me give you I'm gonna give you a couple of examples of what I would describe an overcorrection that's happening in the media on this issue as I would argue in others as well and I'm going to focus on two news organisations quickly the BBC and the New York Times I'm not singling them out for any reason other than that they are very prominent news organizations with well deserved international reputations one weekend in 2018 on the BBC's website the front page news website and the BBC one of the top stories was that the diver Tom Daley had felt inferior about his sexuality but that had given him motivation to succeed this was one of the top stories on the website it was five years after Daley had come out and just underneath that was news that tsunami in Indonesia had killed at least 800 people one day later and the BBC's front-page the news website had as one of its lead stories that day the news that a minor reality television star in Britain called Olly Locke had announced that he and his fiancee Gareth Locke were going to join their surnames to become the lock locks after their forthcoming nuptials underneath that was the headline that the death toll in Indonesia had risen significantly overnight the New York Times in on 16th of October 2017 this is the International edition of the New York Times the business section leads with a two-page story headlined gay in Japan and no longer invisible and it relays a story of a Japanese businessman who had come out in his office in Tokyo and nobody had any problem with it and what's more as the story went on to say Japan isn't a very homophobic Society so this was man comes out in not very homophobic country and nobody cares but that was the two pages of lead news story in The New York Times if you turned to the culture section in the New York Times that day there was a picture of two men dancing and it was news that the New York City Ballet had decided to turn one of the female roles into a male role so that two men were dancing together and had a massive news story about what an incredible breakthrough this was in the obviously previously very virulent ly heterosexual world of ballet so but for some reason we have fallen and we can get into why perhaps into this very strange fragmented view of society which fragments along these very specific lines and I'm gonna finish down conscious of the clock but I just wanted to finish by saying this what if all of this isn't making things better what if it isn't erasing these differences what if it isn't saying to people you can be whatever you want to be but it's actually making these differences accentuated it's playing off races against each other it's playing off the sexes against each other it's playing off sexual minorities against majorities what if what if we're not doing something that's making things better but just doing something that's making it an awful lot worse thank you the guy you see on the screen right now is Ben fonder coy and last night Dutch media outlet ran multiple 10l that serves as a regional broadcaster and this partly publicly funded published a big portrait as they call it of him of Ben from their coy highlighting his patriotic activism the rest of us in the Netherlands know that from their coy is a multiple convicted neo-nazi who got to speak freely in a written piece online and a podcast facilitated by public news source less than a week ago in the city of The Hague the city that is home to the international war tribunal the city that is also known as the city of peace the city where our national parliament resides and also the Royal City because of its residents the royal family thousands of progressive but mainly moderate Dutch people came together to protest black Piet for those of you who don't know black Piet is the much debated racist blackface character part of the Dutch tradition of Sinterklaas are a Dutch version of Santa Claus supposed to be a yearly celebration of childhood innocence sinter Klass a white saint comes to town with his blackface helpers who apparently are black from going through the chimney and leaving presents in children's shoes as these people were protesting black Piet these activists who were protesting black Piet was surrounded by a large number of police to protect them against extremely violent hooligans neo-nazis and self-proclaimed white supremacists such as Ben from their COI how do I know they were extremely aggressive well a week before this national demo a manifestation while a small delegation of organizers were meeting up in preparation they were attacked by the same group of people who claimed that their freedom of speech and expression is under attack because a growing number of Dutch people claimed that after 150 years its to say goodbye to blackface stereotyping black people and people of color and using colonial references to do so in expression of their anger they stormed the building wearing forage caps shouting racial slurs they threw firebombs into the building and the car of one of the frontman of Koz pee this is the the group of people protesting black Pete his car was completely smashed the group of people that did that were about fifty to sixty ranging in ages from thirteen to fifty two people are in custody at the moment relating to this incident that's two out of the sixty and it means to me that 58 people were very much very much free to express themselves even in the most aggressive and detrimental way possible without any ramifications in fact the irony is that the mere reason my friends party members and come rates were so brutally attacked in the first place is because of exercising their right to the freedom of speech by claiming that black beat is a racist caricature character and I see no lie in that yet still people some of them politicians some of them colonists some of them journalists some of them neo-nazi hooligans are trying to silence us in speaking a truth so I beg to differ that's so-called political correctness or wellness results in less free speech I can safely say from my own personal experience that it seems to me that more can be said by some rather than as well as less by others in the current political climate at least in the Netherlands right-wing discourse is on the rise in my home country and on a daily basis people say the harshest things about non-binary people women people of color Muslims refugees people with disabilities undocumented people basically everybody that isn't a white male abled body of a certain age - that decades ago this was unthinkable or at least it would have been considered improper or just insulting issues like racial profiling foot by police for example are justifies right now as a necessary evil rather than recognizing its structural racism because you see it's not that it is no longer allowed to say what you want to say it's about being held accountable for what one says taking responsibility for the words and the language that one uses one has to be aware that words are not neutral but they have histories and connotations and one just cannot ignore that words have power and they can reinforce great reinforce systems of inequality and suppression thus you can still use these words you can still be free to speak yet you need to be aware of what you're saying and that if your words are racist sexist homophobic transphobic well somebody might just call you a racist a sexist a homophobe or a transfer people will respond to it so yes you can say whatever you want to say all you have to do is own your words and expect others to respond to what you're saying so as long as you own what you say as far as I'm concerned you can say anything we can talk about anything thank you [Applause] thank you both very much I think listening to both of you and looking at your work what comes across to me is whether the struggle for rights be they gay or gender LGBT whether the battle has been won or not because many feel that they need to keep shouting pushing with language because they feel for example there is not equality in whatever sphere it is that we might want to talk about so that could be gay rights that could be women's rights that could be racial justice how do you feel Douglas when we talk about that do you feel but when I read your book it came across to me that you feel a lot of the battles were almost won well I do I use this analogy that in in in many of these areas it's been my experience in my adult life that it that it's looked like watching a train reaching the desired destination that is at the station of equality and as it draws in suddenly getting a head of steam shooting off down the tracks off the tracks and scattering people in its wake what I mean by that is the the weaponization of things at the stage at which they've never got better where they're presented as if they've never been worse and I just I just urge people to to take their foot off that pedal a little bit that isn't to say don't keep moving but but don't lean on heuristics you've come to very recently this hard Silvana what would you respond well I always think it's necessary to really understand that even though my emancipation has reached a certain level where I can say that I now have some privileges it doesn't mean to say that that goes for everybody who's part of let's say that's particular group that's identifying within a certain scope so let's make more concrete and say that it's fine if you're a female exactly like myself for instance I'm a female party leader so it's easy for me to say that that's doable that's possible if I can do it anybody can do it but the fact of the matter is that a lot of young women who look like me do not have the same privileges and are still fighting so many battles that maybe I've overcome because of Lord knows why could be just my my dominance character but it not to say that they don't that they have the same opportunities and the same privileges so they still have a long way to go and I know from experience that it's important for them to have role models and people that speak out on their behalf well let me pass it back to Douglas then do you feel you can always speak as freely as you want to myself yes I think that I'm in a is it what a very privileged position I know this from audiences and readers who are in touch with me that increasingly the things I describe which cause have caused career destruction for very eminent people I mean thinking of things like the Nobel Prize winning scientist Tim hunt who made this one joke at a conference in career and by the time he landed in London has lost every job he had and I'm saying this happened to has happened to very prominent people that they've either said something that's not that popular anymore or said something off-color it's so on and so forth but my point is that all of that stuff trickles down to the workplace and what I'm struck by now is the extent to which people who are are not self-employed journalists and writers feel that they can't say the things that other that some people in public has they so for instance let me give one very quick example I did this on the BBC the other week that this issue came up this pop singer sam smith who described himself as non-binary and I got into a certain amount of trouble that didn't bother me but because I said I don't think there's any such thing or at least no one's explained what it is efficiently for me to agree to it now I know I know from feedback including feedback in the studio from certain people that BBC that this is not an unpopular thing to say I would think that if you went out to the general public and said do you think there are people who are non-binary and if so can you say what they are you'd get and a fragment of one percent of people able to say there and so and so my point on that is not that I've closed the argument on that but we haven't had the an argument on the whole set of things and it seems only to be a few people who do have a voice in public who can have it so that now you want to you're nodding your head not agreement because I'm always some surprised that certain people feel that they need to give their okay for other people to be or think something they don't necessarily understand it doesn't matter whether I understand the beauty of physical love between two men there's no point you don't need my permission to feel and act so why does Sam Smith or anybody else who considers himself non-binary need needs permission from whoever all that is up to us is to say if this is important to you and it does not affect me in any type of way in any type of negative way I'm going to respect that so if you say that you're offended by blackface every year then I don't need to understand how come you're offended all I need to do is say this is not my intention how can I fix it and if you say you can fix it by stop acting that way then that's what I'll do because there is no point people don't need your permission to be whoever they want to be okay I think it's slightly more complex than that if I can say so let's let me give one one reason why actually the Sam Smith thing was significant again sorry to go on about the BBC the BBC reporting off that immediately did what he asked which was they changed the pronouns and some people think this isn't a big thing some of us do get a bit stuck on this I might just ammonium to interrupt you just so everybody is up to speed with the cents off instead of he/she him/her non-binary people often want to use they/them so it would be so my point was simply that if you haven't actually had this out in public you haven't actually discussed much of it it's a bit strange that a major news organization would slip into saying exactly what a person had asked themselves to be described us simply because they had asked for sounds like respect to me it's nothing more nothing less not the same thing as respect because it's something which we haven't had out he himself said I don't know what it means to be non-binding so my suggestion what he should go away and think about it and in the meantime we shouldn't all mutilate the language to fit around why if I come on this stage and I say to you I would prefer for you to call me mr. Simonds why is it a problem to you to just give me that respect but I'm afraid that because I care about the language I didn't particularly want to say they was very good in their performance last night well they're not going to do it simply because of the circulator there is a more important thing if I may say so which is that actually this one is a very nice bit of a thing whether the pop star thinks they're non-binary or J is not that semen now there is one that's very significant which we're all tripping over now which is the trans one and you mentioned the thing about the phobia there there is a real problem in our societies on this one because actually in the media people are petrified now of writing about this issue but outside there in the country as you can see from a new poll it's about to come out tomorrow the general public are deeply concerned about being dismissed as transphobes when you're talking about how you deal with children and that isn't a small concern isn't it it's not just about pronouns it's a legitimate concern of the general public about the well-being of children I'm bothered when people make assertions which we haven't litigated in public yet and on a whole set of issues at the moment the way I said is I'm sure you're all people who've seen sheep dogs in operation but if you see a sheepdog trying to get a her of sheep it doesn't need to go and force them into a corner it goes and you're not even nips but pretends to nip around the edges and that way you can make everyone move like this there is a there is a real and significant risk in our society with the free press at the moment that people coming and making very slight nips around the edges make the whole herd move in another direction and that is exactly what's happened with are you worried about will be the end result I'm worried that we tell little lies and we get used to little lies and then we tell bigger ones I think there's a I think it's a lie to pretend that biology doesn't matter I think it's unwise to pass those things through always simply because of courtesy courtesy I happen to agree is one of the bedrocks of society it's very important to be courteous but that's not courtesy has a limit only limited use the word respect and that's a big difference between courtesy and respect respect is what we absolutely need in order to live together on this planet as a diverse society something that is hard to accept for certain people but we are a diverse society what we see happening is new perspectives coming in new people saying we want to have our seat at the table because we can either represent ourselves or as myself have been given the mandate to represent certain groups of people now those same people who for who for decades if not hundreds of years have been the dominant factor in deciding what is on the table are afraid I do understand I don't understand what they're afraid of I think I do but I'd like to hear from them and also I don't understand why it is of such importance to them that other people emancipate in the way they think is best if I may just one thing on the end of that on the diversity issue entirely agree of course I mean our societies are trying to cope with a very Swift increase in diversity of the that we've always been diversity always been diversity there's always been black people Asian people always just one at a time this has been some but I'm saying not like this and we are struggling with it and I would suggest as a there's a useful lesson for speech in this from a very good book by the Danish journalist Flemming Rose who wrote a book called the tyranny of silence a few years ago he he made a point that I think he's just worth bearing in mind which is he said in his view that there were there were only two ways you could go with dealing with it increasingly diverse society you broadly speaking had the choice of limiting speech or having to get people used to the fact there'd be more speech than they'd ever been used to before and of the to the latter despite how painful it is is far more preferable I think the interesting thing about the whole issue of offense is not the problem with with the claiming of offense is that it is not that it is obviously sometimes people a lot of the time people say things that are offensive happens to most thrusts every day but the problem is not that the problem is the the use of I'm offended by that as effectively as synonym for shut up that is commonplace and that just needs some pushing back my suggestion for going from what somebody said at Vox and a while ago was why don't we try to start working out as an interim measure listening to each other's words and trying to hear them honestly I don't we start thinking about what we say in what we do before why don't we start there why don't we take responsibility for the things we say and do before we offend I agree but my suggestion is I say that if we could do this if we could practice it across lines would mean that we try to listen to other people in the spirit of generosity and what we're doing at the moment is deliberately listening to people in the hope that there is something underneath the words that we can work out when we can and so my suggestion is just start with that but I'm so glad you raised it because it's a single most unaddressed question in our society that needs addressing it's been fascinating you have listened to each other and you spoken to one another's wonder killed each other how about thank you all for your questions thanks to Douglas and yourself thank you [Applause]

Channel: Sky News Australia

Views: 2,740,531

Keywords: murray, msn, yt, 6115924489001

Id: m2zZMg7SNWA

Length: 28min 49sec (1729 seconds)

Published: Sun Dec 15 2019