Plato's Gorgias, Introduction

well let's see okay I wanted to get back into the dialogue a little bit really we're just getting started I'm sure you notice that a part of this dialogue is just emotions that come out that these guys some of them really don't like each other and you can tell that and actually it's important to note that because as you no doubt are aware politics is a lot about emotion and the reason why it's about emotion is because the things involved in politics that people argue about are so important they're important for their future for their very lives you know there's really nothing more important everything else has affected by politics in our world and that's why actually we see glorious acknowledging that and actually trumpeting it in these first few pages here for better or worse it really is the overarching science because it impacts all everything else including the hard sciences you know like just look at what's going on with with medical science now right we're debating the Affordable Care Act and all that and of course the government provides a lot of funding basic medical research to and sets a lot of health policy in general and has for a long long time in our country so what's more important politics or science in that case okay science can't move forward without a certain amount of commitment from the society money is important where does money come from us through government right and so if you look around the world you'll find that a country may have wonderful natural resources it has intelligence you know available human capital as we call it etc but politics can either promote that and make it the best it can be or it can totally stop it from succeeding japan well now it's going through some difficulties but for years Japan was you know we were worried about Japan getting ahead of us even though Japan is a pretty small island with not a lot of natural resources but it had great human capital and its political system works pretty well in Africa there are countries that are in the Middle East their countries torn with political strife if it weren't for that they've got fantastic natural resources and people who could do great things okay so I guess what I'm trying to say is really you know gorgeous is going to claim and I think Socrates would agree politics is the most important human odd so to speak it's it's important it can do great harm or it can do great good okay so there's no getting around it in this world and that's why it brings out so much emotion in people is because they know that it's going to impact their lives at every level for better or worse it's going to it's going to largely determine you know what their life is going to be like all right so now when polis says you know he's been asked by terrifying to tell us what he thinks of rhetoric when he says rhetoric is the noblest of all arts okay he is saying that it's very very important like I just said I mean he senses that it's very important maybe the most important but Socrates says that polis is being defensive in his answer what does that mean does anybody know my Socrates it accuses him of being defensive when somebody's defensive what does it mean yeah i think the properties of saying or belief that rhetoric is actually kind of the way to the injury it's believing what they want and will snowing that has a lot of power is trying his expense that use of power saying that it's not bad but even though it can be corrupted which is what soccer's was trying to say yeah socrates is really coming from the opposite point of view obviously when when polis uses the word noble you know that means that it is in his view truly to be esteemed to be admired it's it's it's it's the best you know not just because of the power but you know it's the worthy 'used to study to pursue and so forth and I think you're right that Socrates will disagree pretty profoundly about that and and his suspicion is deep suspicion is that rhetoric is used in democratic politics to do people or manipulate people and so forth when he says that polis is being defensive he's kind of suggesting that pulse is covering that part of it up right that by saying that it's the noblest of all arts he's putting the spotlight on the best but avoiding any discussion of the worst and further um he's actually not in scientist view saying enough okay when you say it's the noblest what does that really mean it's just sort of high praise but why is it the noblest can you defend it can you actually say that it is the most worthy the best and so forth so we find Socrates asking a lot of questions obviously and trying to get people to be very specific so gorgeous of course jumps in he's the guy who really ought to be answering you remember polis got into this and he comes back soon because he faces we can sort of show his talents maybe show off a little bit too gorgeous and he's kind of belligerent too terrifying and to Socrates but gorgeous is an older person and he has been around you know he's talked a lot he's he is not defensive in that sense you know and he's not you can you can sort of feel the Gorgas is to a certain extent a great guy okay because he's much more generous with his information yay he's not he doesn't feel threatened easily alright so he says I will I will answer that question my art is rhetoric and I can teach it okay now he's not saying what rhetoric is yet or what its aim is yet okay but at least he's saying okay look I'm the guy who does it I know what it is and so I both do it and I teach it okay which as they say are two very different skills right some people know how to teach but not to do some people know how to do and not to teach and so forth so here's an extraordinary guy he can do both supposedly all right now Socrates will actually dispute later on by the way I'll just warn you he actually disputes whether it can really be effectively taught and maybe this is not something that you can you teach somebody to be a world-class public speaker okay you can teach people how to be a public speaker but you teach somebody to be world class to be the best or is that something that comes just from within because if they haven't got that in them so he does question that but anyway at this point Socrates asks him the crucial question which is you know basically everybody knows he he does rhetoric and teaches it but what is the aim of it you know what is the goal of it why do you do it okay why do you you give these speeches and why do you want to teach other guys to do them and why do they flock to you okay because gorgeous has a lot of students wherever he goes people are wanting to learn what he has to know you know and I'm sure in their minds it's about gosh you know I want to be like him and I want to be famous I want to be powerful this is the way to do it in in a democratic society but Socrates asks this question and gorgeous answers it okay and but i wanted to add this is a little out of sequence but i wanted to add this before i give you the full answer they do agree on a couple of things if you have your book on page 14 you're the top of the page or if you have a different version and you've got the side numbers it's near 455 we have Socrates saying so rhetoric it seems effects a persuasion which can produce belief about justice and injustice but cannot give instruction about them let me put that up on the screen this seems like a minor matter but actually it turns out to be a pretty major matter for him okay if that's a persuasion okay it persuades it produces belief okay uses that that's a specific term you know it produces belief remember we talked about belief or opinion versus knowledge last time so he's making that distinction it produces opinion or belief about justice and injustice and remember that's important because what does politics really all about what does political rhetoric really all about if you listen carefully it really is all about justice and injustice right and wrong okay but it cannot give instruction about them okay what would what's the difference what does he mean instruction about them what would that take do you think uh-huh he was hurt but he doesn't actually how to inform them how to make their own knowledgeable like opinions that are based around more like mmhmm yeah that's what it is that's what he's saying right that gorgeous knows how to make people feel a certain way and he can sort of sway them to an opinion but that opinion is superficial and remember we talked about how it can be easily changed because of that whereas instruction would have to be something that takes more time that involves argument where you really have to persuade somebody and they internalize that and then they have their own true opinion that they can defend okay it doesn't mean that they can't change it because as I said before you may get a new argument new facts may make you change your mind but it's a more solid thing right because you have backing for it you know why you think the way you do so he's saying rhetoric can't do that and then down here they agree on this because he gorgeous agrees hmmm Socrates says the retirin then is not a teacher of law courts and other public gatherings as to what is right or wrong but merely a creator of beliefs for evidently he could never instruct so large a gathering on such a weighty matter in such short in a short time okay so this is part of the reason why rhetoric can't teach people why I can't jump into that role of teacher and instructor because you have large crowds and you have a short time okay so you can't have a dialogue you can't have a lot of question and answer you you've got a format where it's really kind of impossible okay so if you've only got half an hour 45 minutes you're going to be able to persuade if you're good but you can't teach and gorgeous says he certainly couldn't so and gorgeous is not at all upset about this because gorgeous doesn't think that a person can actually teach to that degree anyway let me try to explain that a little bit gorgeous had a philosophy which comes out here but only it's hinted at he doesn't actually explain it here but Gore has had a philosophy that people couldn't transmit knowledge to each other anyway okay when i say x y and z okay you hear it but you hear it through your personal experiences and you're fast round and you know all kinds of things your gender your age all that stuff factors in so what you hear he thought couldn't be the same as what i said anyway you would have your own take on it you would have your own perception and you know you know perceptions can be quite different people can walk out of a room and then they discuss what this was said and they disagree you know that right so gory has picked up on that and he really took it to the extreme and he said you really can't directly transmit knowledge what's in my mind can't i can't make you see it exactly the same way so Georgas argues what's the point in trying to do that then you know human beings are persuadable but but teaching them past a certain point in the philosophical sense is kind of hard to do pretty much impossible okay so gorgeous is somebody who believes that perspective perspective Trump's knowledge okay perspective is everything man another sophos said man is the measure of all things meaning you know we judge what we hear we judge the world right and we see it the way we want to see it and political philosophers have had to grapple with this part of human nature forever you know that people see what they want to see they hear what they want to hear the thing about word is he thinks that's pretty much all there is it's really rather futile to try what Socrates is trying and really deeply teach because people are resistant to it it's hard for them to do it because of their perceptions and their opinions and so forth they're going to walk away with what they think what they want to think and so forth so so that's where gorgeous is coming from all right when he agrees with Socrates Socrates does not agree with gorgeous that it's futile to try he does think that you can get beyond opinion and perspective but you have to do it in small groups you have to do it face-to-face you have to have a fairly serious and lengthy conversation you have to try to put emotion aside to a great extent so that you can actually get this connection it can't be done he would agree in large groups of people okay so and i put here these are problems that all democracies suffer from because in a democracy you can't get beyond the need to speak to very large groups of people I mean even if it's Athens which was a heck of a lot smaller than the United States of America we're talking about maybe 5,000 6,000 people sitting in the Lee at any given time listening to speakers okay so you can't have a dialogue with five or six thousand people in our system we have representatives who are trying to decide how to vote and they will try to persuade the people to support them so that they could get reelected they'll be speaking to entire States full of people if not the entire nation to the degree that they can and boy is it harder to get people's attention that's why millions and millions of dollars are spent in political campaigns because it's just very hard in this huge competition for people's time to even get their attention all right so I think Socrates would agree with gorgeous here although Socrates would see this as a weakness for democracy okay it's a problem for democracy that can't go away as long as you have a democracy that people don't have a lot of time that it's hard to get their attention their attention span is short okay they don't know a lot about a lot of subject matters that politicians want to talk about and there's really not there's really not too much that you can do to get beyond that problem in a democracy for gorgeous this is great okay because the very weaknesses of the people equal the strength of the retirin it creates an environment where a writer ition can thrive you know public speaking is a too great of a skill to have in an oligarchy a dictatorship it can get you killed okay but in a democracy is the number one most powerful tool occasionally it got people killed in a direct democracy too but not as often so all right let's look and see what gheorghiu says rhetorics aim is okay I can find my book all right this is great you got to pay attention to this because he really does give you a very full answer on page 10 up above number 453 gheorghiu says the Socrates I mean the ability to persuade with words judges in the law courts senators in the Senate assemblymen in the assembly and men in any other meeting which convenes for the public interest that's a lot right there persuade the people in law courts in a senton political assemblies anywhere where there's a public issue okay where people have to decide on this or that policy since it is perfectly true that by virtue of this power and he does think it's a power that's not the last time he's going to term it like that it's a power by virtue of this power you will have at your beck and call the physician and the trainer and the businessman of yours will turn out to be making money for somebody else not for himself will he make the money but for you who have the power to speak and persuade the vast majority now think about that that's a different way of thinking about political power the pull of the good politician the successful politician has at his disposal other people they're not directly working for him that's surely he's got a scale and so forth right but he's talking about you and me everybody in the country okay is working for for that person because they're working under his laws and his policies okay and so he even know so far as to connect money with it the businessman is not making money for himself he's making it for you okay and what does he mean by that for your taxation now that power that come through policy scenes that absolutely you know that business man is paying taxes the taxes go to the government and the politician gets decide how to spend the money okay so it's not his money directly it's not put directly this back account week oh right i mean that doesn't happen very often every once in a while it does but but for the most part it's you know like in our country the IRS collected it goes to the you know the Treasury the government spends it but this is a unique perspective isn't it that it's really the politicians money now you know a lot of politicians would disagree insane oh you know I'm I'm here because I want to be a good steward of public interest I'm going to spend the money but I'm going to do it for the welfare of the general public and I think that a lot of politicians actually do that that actually I'm not a total cynic I think you know it depends all right gorgeous is a little bit of a cynic you know and he actually likes the idea of having all that money in his disposal and even further I guess you could probably say the businessman isn't just making the money it's not just the taxes the business man pays but through the laws and the policies okay of politicians the rest of the money he makes is employed in certain ways and not in others he can suspend it on this but he can't spend it on that okay this market is open to him that is not why because of policy right so the money is used and channeled through the policies and laws of the government in to that extent it's really kind of all the government's money from gorgeous is perspective alright so you are the puppet master okay in gorgas SP back in a town I used to live in we had the sky he owned banks you know and mmm he really was involved in politics so we used to call in the big hand okay the big hand he was he was always there in the background he was organizing everything he was doing everything but you didn't see the big hand very often the big hand was invisible but it was always there and it was basically manipulating a lot of things so gorgeous his dream is to be the big hand right the invisible hand so to speak but not the invisible hand of economics of Adam Smith but the invisible hand of government you know reaching in and doing what he wants to do with the society he says that is the greatest power okay that you can have and I think that that Socrates would agree with that the government has a greatest earthly power the people can have and that's why it's so important from his perspective that we figure out what government should do and who should be in charge and so forth trattoria is it's just it's just an incredible opportunity you know and it's right there you know for him and for other people to use for their advantage and he's very attracted to power I don't want a steer you wrong here later on we start talking more about money in the history of political thought you know that people want to get rich and that's why they do what they do but at this point its power you know power and the honor and the glory that comes with power and that great feeling and actually if you talk to people involved in politics and they're honest they will tell you that that's still the case for an awful lot of them they like that feeling of participation and involvement and having influence that goes beyond just walking into a voting booth and voting it gives them a charge okay well gorgeous is very open about this he's seeing what an awful lot of people know and experience but maybe in our society because of the context which we live we're ashamed to say it directly okay but it gives people a charge it gives people this great basically sort of like a high you know they are able to affect things and it did to to do things beyond what other people can do their elevated above the norm okay so he's very very clear and he is not ashamed to say this okay at this point he says it is persuading the vast majority for the interest of the speaker okay and this is what Socrates objects to okay gorgeous says this is the great power and Socrates would agree it's a great power but it's objectionable you know he doesn't like it because he believes that it can be abused alright everybody got that all right so what we find going on in this dialogue at a deeper level then is this clash between the life of the pursuit of power and wealth and the life of the pursuit of knowledge and Socrates would say justice because knowledge goes sir you can't no justice without pursuing knowledge without facility philosophy so you start to get this this dichotomy that's this competition between these two ways of life and the question being which way is best and you know from a concrete perspective these young men that are sitting around listening to Gore he is trying to learn the art of rhetoric what would really truly be in their best interest would it be to stick to with gorgeous and to learn his skills or would it be to maybe come over to Socrates and take part in his dialogues which of these two teachers has the best stuff that will lead to happiness okay happiness becomes an issue okay which one makes you happy and when you think about it an awful lot of what we do seriously revolves around this okay what will make us happy okay that's what we want to be right I want to be miserable but we have different definitions of happiness we have different ideas about what will make us have and we profoundly disagree about what Lakers have and throughout the course of your life it changes to you know it changes and you what you thought would make you happy when you were in your 20s is not even really very important when you're in your 40s or 50s okay so I just warn you a little bit there but don't don't give up on what you're doing now it'll just it'll just happen to you one day be like I really don't care anymore about that so it provides some some interest in life okay but we want to be happy and the question is which way you know and it's a serious question because people who pursue this way of life will tell you if you interview on they'll say hell yeah I'm happy you know I got my my multi-million dollar apartment New York and I'm so in my fashions or whatever around the world and you know I've got I've got what I want this is my dream and in other people who ask a guy who decided to join a monastery at the age of 25 or whatever he's living in next to silence you know got no possessions are you happy he'll say yeah I'm happy yeah what I want so it's a good question because people will confirm both of those very sincerely okay all right so as we go through the dialogue will keep coming back to that okay but there's another issue that comes up and that is social responsibility okay I think gorgeous confirms Socrates suspicion that sometimes what retirin say and the changes that they affect through the rhetoric actually do harm the society they can do bad things veterans can things that might enrich them somehow or make them more powerful but they don't benefit society okay and this is where gorgeous chokes a little bit because if you were being really consistent and honest he would probably say you know of course sometimes it doesn't benefit society but you know rhetoric is for the interests of the speaker okay but while he's being questioned about this issue of responsibility okay he does kind of backtrack a bit and he gets into a fairly serious discussion of who is responsible for the misdeeds which is an admission right there the misdeeds of retirin okay so he's admitted that reticence can do misdeeds they can do bad things and the question then is well are are you the teacher responsible at all let's say that you taught them and they go out and they start a big war and the war turns out to be you know bad thing for the society or they go out and they they spend a lot of money and wasted and then people don't have enough money do something they do need who's responsible for those misdeeds okay well let's take a look at this little line of argument here so on page 15 or a couple of inches down from number 456 goregous makes quite a boast here first of all put this up here this is really something but when you think about it it's really quite true I think he says this is gorgeous he says I make the further declaration that if a retirin and a physician should come to any city you please and have occasion to debate in the assembly or other public gatherings as to which of them ought to be elected the public physician which we sort like our Surgeon General right the doctor would be utterly eclipsed and the capable speaker would if he chose be elected okay so there's quite a boast as he probably right about that that that if you put a politician a very capable public speaker and standing across from a very knowledgeable doctor and they're competing for which one will be Surgeon General in front of a crowd he says the politician will win every time it depends on who's in the crowd that's that's true so it make a difference if it were just a group of general public or whether it was maybe medical people you know involved in nurses doctors and so forth involved in in the medical field but I'm sure he's talking about a crowd of general public okay so I mean yeah you'd like to think I hope I'm you know I hope he's wrong actually I'm kind of thinking maybe a crowd just might look at their qualifications and use common sense but but he that's what he thinks that it's that powerful so in other words rhetoric Trump's expertise okay it is more powerful than expertise in the view of the common people all right so but then here's where he starts talking about responsibility because he's been asked by Socrates he says one should however Socrates make use of rhetoric in the same way as one does every other sort of proficiency this to one ought should not employ against any and everybody because a man has learned to be so proficient in boxing or wrestle lean for the use of arms that he's superior to friend and foe alike that's no reason for him to go about beating or stabbing and killing his neighbors or his friends and if a man frequents the gymnasium gets his body into first-rate condition becomes a prizefighter and then takes to beating his father and mother or his friends and relatives that's no reason for detesting and vanishing the trainers and teachers in the art of fighting you can recognize that they imparted their instruction to be used rightly in self-defense against enemies and criminals but the pupils perverted their own strength and skill to it's wrong use the teachers therefore are not evil nor is their art responsible for these misdeeds nor is it vicious in itself those who misuse the art I hold to be responsible ok let me stop there for a second and ask you what you think he's saying there mm-hmm just because somebody hit shows what they wanted to listen to side between the body but is he giving the rights of university yeah he actually seems not right the teachers not the plane because the student made his choices right about how much aluminum and how to use that yeah you wanted to talk about defensive who who doesn't this it sounds like is it all themselves reading guilt Goodman we come like being able to be excuse of misusing it out yeah yeah he is definitely trying to distance himself from good responsibility right as a teacher he's saying I teach skills I teach students the nuts and bolts of public speaking how to do it well what they do with it is their business what they do with it if it harms someone is their choice okay and not my responsibility be like I think what he's trying to maybe lighten himself to any talks about the prize fighter and so forth is not like what if any of you done martial arts at all you know that the instructor will tell you you know directly you use this for self-defense but just because you become better at fighting does not mean you should use it to bully people or to harm innocent people right you've got to be responsible with it so here he sounds kind of like that of course under those circumstances if a student went out and harmed his parents or something like that would you blame the martial arts instructor no you know why because he's tried to do the responsible thing he's tried to you know tell students no I'm teaching you this but you've got to be responsible with it I think that comes down the culture though I mean in our culture in Greek culture yeah they may not teacher right it can't boot culture between the death routine because you'd wonder what what didn't they yeah what didn't they teach them yeah why didn't you get this across it up that's a good point now gorgous makes it sound here like he's actually giving that feel about how do you throw it justly but the problem is he's not and this is why socrates so strongly objects okay is that we've just heard gorgeous say to everybody rhetoric should be used in public places to persuade people to do what the speaker wants he hasn't been shy about that okay so there's a selfish motive behind it and prior to this point he has been quite clear about that and now he's suggesting in a way he's suggesting he doesn't do that okay or maybe hasn't thought it through well enough he's contradicting himself to a certain extent here okay and kallik please points that out in a little bit he's kind of upset with gorgeous because he feels like he has tripped up made a mistake by kind of admitting that he should teach people right and wrong ok and Cally's doesn't think that's necessary why does goriest do this it's kind of hard to know whether it's because he thinks that's what Socrates wants to hear and he's not quite thinking about the implications of it for the rest of his argument he's sitting in a group of people that what he's pressed he may be a little embarrassed to just remain completely honest or maybe he just doesn't you know following his own train of thought too well here but but he could only say this plausibly if he gave his students that message of responsibility and you know this idea that you should only use rhetoric for the benefit of the public not yourself and this is not what he that's now how he sells what he does ok he looked just finish up what he says here he says exactly the same argument holds for rhetoric also the retirin is capable of speaking against everyone else and on any subject you please in such a way that he could win over the vast multitudes to anything in a word he desires but the fact that he can rob doctors or any other craftsmen of the credit do them is no reason why he should do so he must use his skill justly exactly as one should physical prowess okay so it's just interesting the the reversal here he's previously described rhetoric as basically doing just that not robbing doctors the businessman in a way you know and and using their money and their work for his benefit okay but now he says you shouldn't do that alright and they should know the students should know and he actually says a bit later on if they don't know he'll teach them okay so I've already in flips shrink that a little bit i've already mentioned this quote 16c but i'll leave that up for a second but this leads to the question of the responsibility of the teacher okay under what circumstances is the teacher responsible and you just mentioned in in that you know martial arts type of culture maybe it would be expected that you're not a good teacher and you can't get this point positive if a bad people comes out and uses people maybe people would look to that teacher and say well why did you why did you select this person might be a question you know because you have to actually find as the character person for this type of activity and then if you got if you got past that line then why did you not get your point across about good behavior so but for a lot of us we come from especially in this country I think from a different perspective where it's a perspective of individualism okay and the more individualistic a society is the more likely it is that that that people will say well you know it's always the the person's responsibility who actually did the misdeed okay because he or she decided to do it right that's why we get into these quarrels about you know there are actually laws that sometimes get right they try to enforce them as to holding bartenders responsible for the sight of themself somebody get ridden free you know under the notion that the bartender ought to be able to figure out if the person is to be created to have that drink then the person goes out he gets into an auto accident then sometimes people try to sue the bar you know they investigate try to figure out should the bartender of know now he's in a crowd of people it's loud you know he's got a rush he's got to serve everybody and some people are better than others at hiding their inebriation hey that's a whole lot of mix of issues there and yet sometimes people sue them and sometimes those lawsuits are successful and in most of time what i hear is sort of outrage about that kind of thing though you know how can we blame the guy whose job it is to pour drinks at a bar for this guy's choice to come into the bar drink far too much and then get behind the wheel of his car so we're individualistic we don't we reject the idea that we are really extremely our brother's keeper okay and we say the blame falls on the person who did the misdeed so there is a difference of opinion and I think it comes out between Socrates and gorgeous and others on this responsibility and we find Socrates citing more with the idea that the teacher has a great deal of responsibility in the society for being a good role model for teaching correctly for making sure that people understand right wrong that it is at least to a certain extent the teacher's responsibility and that is a foreign I think a fairly foreign idea in our own society so it's a little difficult to wrap our minds around it and in the parallels readings I chose this issue simply because it kind of smacks of the same sort of clash okay first of all and secondly we all know a little bit about it all right so the issue is sec said and what we're going to do with it you know how we're going to deal with sexual issues in the public schools which are impacted by public policy where school boards decide you know what if anything will be taught and however we taught and parents get involved as you know in duking it out over these issues and there's more than these two sides obviously there's a sort of middle position too but the two we hear the most problem are the abstinence-only message where you know the view is that schools should simply tell students that they should not have sex because sex is you know it could give them an STD you could give them up it could get the pregnant etc so the part of this topic students are supposed to do well I think that my personal opinion is parents need to deal with this issue and need to need to teach their students their their kids that but as far as the public debate hey I just wanted asking is do me as a culture as it does America's still disappear oh wow like assume probably if I'm getting your point okay maybe you can make it in a different way though not as i'm still not do we like for instance do me as the bodybuilder goes home and beezus family good you're responsible don't do the students know love laws well that's the question is you know what do you teach and how far you go to teach it if you get involved in the question of law versus lust you're getting into values which most Americans believe is a private matter that should be tried anything at home and that's why that mean hardly that partly ever comes up in any sort of sex education curriculum unless you're talking about maybe it a religious school or something like that because the very distinction between love and lust is a moral distinction and public schools because of the public nature of my stay away from that I think it's a great distinction and I think teaching kids about the more the intricacies of what's involved in all this is a really good idea but I think that because of the nature of our society is individualistic its rights oriented and hey we decided long ago that we would keep values the important values out of the public school now I'm going to get into dangerous territory but out of the public school environment and less their values that everybody can agree on like we shouldn't bully people okay but when it comes to stuff like that that's a distinction that some people would disagree with that there is a distinction ok so I would say you know most likely neither side would want to touch that isn't that interesting and yet it's probably the most important distinction right because if you make that distinction you're guiding people in the direction of having real relationships in which case they're less likely to have some of these problems you know from from irresponsible sexual activity but what we get is schools should teach don't have sex okay or we get schools should teach what to do if you have sex responsibility in your sexual behaviors so which means which means the use of birth control it's a more yesterday and this is the point that Socrates would make is it actually is a moral decision which one of these you choose it's just the people are in denial about it okay and you know they'll say it's you know it's a matter of policy it's a matter of fective pneus whilst these studies that show that abstinence works better or the other works better for keeping people from having sex but nobody wants to touch the moral dimension of it but you're absolutely right and I think Socrates agrees and this is why this is a fairly decent parallel as that he would say it matters greatly morally which one of these you choose because it's not just the students responsibility it is the teacher's responsibility the two are kind of tied together mm-hmm all this isn't about my future yes yeah it really is you know and the teacher in this case turns out to you gonna the teacher turns out to be the leaders of the society weather like in this example is the school board in the school principal and so forth in the teachers of the school you know or any other leader that there's this notion and Socrates mind that you cannot get away from morality but in public policy and public discussions we often try very hard to do so a sidestep it we see anything but it especially in our society because by golly Neil want anybody shoving rally down their throats right it's are you know my definition isn't the same as yours but yes Socrates opinion is it's irresponsible for people in leadership positions not to understand these things very clearly and be willing to influence their the people under them in the right direction okay and so they can't get away from this choice now I I think that Socrates would come down probably more closely to the abstinence message although he would probably go a lot farther as you suggest and teach people what love actually means trying to teach them how to respect your fellow human beings and so forth but if he had to choose it wouldn't be this one because he would say by talking to students about all the ways that they can protect themselves from STD see basically you're saying assets do whatever you want you're sending a message to people who are 14 15 16 17 years old that whatever they decide is okay okay and we'll help you kind of deal with with whatever negative consequences might come from that so the teachers and the principal and so forth in this case are sending the students a moral message although they would say the students decide you know it's their choice and what they will often say is their choosing already I mean it's not us who are having any influence over them we're just trying to protect them from the consequences of behavior they've already chosen to do okay move it we have other questions that both these options just move the public school to teach just the talk now we fight of it and how the body works and then leave the moral choice food how has things pics or birth control Maximus families to decide if I know is my five-year-old son I don't want the school telling him how to have safe sex or what you should do right yeah that'd be something I to judge yeah I definitely agree with you I have a 16 year old son I think I've done a very good job with this whole issue and I did it my own way and I don't think that way would have been at all replicated by a public school my sense is that public schools do get the plumbing lesson but they do go beyond that at least in our area to the safe sex message and so for it and if every parent was responsible just kind of play devil's advocate we wouldn't have need for sex education but unfortunately I think a lot of parents or not they don't guide their their their children on this topic either they don't talk about it at all or they do so poorly and give people to want impressions or give their kids the wrong impression based on their own personal behavior too I mean we have a society where adult deer responsibility is pretty rampant and so when kids watch their parents behavior what what lesson do they get from that right so if I had to play devil's advocate i would say you know that if your suggestion would be good lived in the world where parents were all responsible and do what the heck was going on but we don't so that schools do give people the opt-out choice at least around here in other words you can say you don't like kidding um but yeah I mean and I but I think that if to come back to what Socrates position would be Socrates would say that's not good enough he doesn't take the individualistic position that every individual in every family can handle these things for themselves he does believe in that there is a societal responsibility or there should be and that you can't escape that leaders make policy that affects people what they learn is among the issues okay and therefore they should think very deeply about what is truly good for people here especially young people I'm sure because this is when we form people's characters now I don't think he would I I agree with those who said abstinence message is not good enough I don't think he would probably want to stick with that he would want to go beyond that and teach people how to be human beings that care about each other and understand their responsibilities in the world but but he wouldn't go with this and the reason why I chose this too is because these people sound a little bit like gorgeous sometimes okay they'll say you know the students and their families who teach that design it is not our responsible so adventurous so I was kind of wondering you mentioned the thing about how goregous thinks that we can't teach so is is gorgeous kind of coming from the perspective that that people are not necessarily going to be moral so we shouldn't really just try and do politics then Socrates is coming from the position that it doesn't matter if they are always being moral what you try and teach them how to be more yeah that's sort of that's a very good way to put it yes gardius is thinking people will do what they want to do or they don't think what they want to think and their nurse you know we can persuade them in these public gatherings based on their emotions and so forth but but we can't teach them Socrates is saying we need to take the time to try to do something he would agree that is impossible to change everybody and that you know we have so much influence in this world but you are as a responsible person you need to try to make that effort otherwise you're contributing to the overall societal problem right so you have a responsibility especially if you're a leader of some sort even an intellectual leader such as he was to have that to try to have that influence on people which means you need to spend a lot of time thinking about what is right what is best for people before you go trying to talk to them and then when you talk to them you need to actually try to teach them at a deep level so that they so that they change and and then when people change they become self-governing to a certain extent he would say through moral knowledge okay all right so I already we already discussed that but basically that's this idea would be somewhat like Socrates point of view about this issue if you teach all those options just like Gorga's teaches well if you want to be a public speaker you can you can persuade people to do whatever you want you know you can have the skies money you can have the expertise of these people over here if he sells it that way if he teaches people that then he is somewhat to blame if they go out and use it irresponsibly that's what he's told them to do if we taught kids nothing but how to use birth control perhaps we would be sending them a message it's okay it's normal go out and do what you want okay and so this is this would at least be Socrates point of view it's sort of giving the seal of approval why do americans not like this when they don't I know some of you probably agree with Socrates but it's because we don't like paternalistic government right which means we don't like government being like Big Daddy who tells us how to live our lives okay we got away from that when we have the revolution and everything over time it's just kind of accelerated and now you know the very idea that a politician might have some notion about how we should live our lives is really kind of we don't like it at all you know we respond really rather negatively to that this is not any of their business what we do in our bedrooms etc etc right so that's a fairly common reaction and it just shows you how different the ancient perspective on this through Socrates is from our own okay we don't like it he knows people actually don't like it either but he still thinks it's probably the right thing to do all right so talk a little bit about this issue here of beating the expert I wanted to point out this passage to you where you actually just says that down at the bottom of page team in between 459 and 460 we have Socrates say so when the renovation is more persuasive than the doctor it is a case of ignorant be more persuasive than the expert in the company of the ignorant is that the way that or is it not marina says that is of course the way of it in this case Socrates says moreover the retirin and his rhetoric will have the same relation to all the other arts there is no need for rhetoric to know the facts at all for it has hit upon a means of persuasion that enables it to appear in the eyes of the ignorant to know more than those who really know and sokka and gorgeous as well Socrates isn't that a delightfully easy way of doing things to make oneself a match for the experts and the other arts though one has learned none of them only this one ok so again here we have gorgeous really boasting and taciturn power the power of rhetoric is you could persuade the quote ignorant in these public gatherings and appear to be the expert so he's back he's back to saying that and as I said before we'll find that kallik lees not long from now gets upset with gorgeous because he's gone back and forth because he said well I you know rhetoric teachers of rhetoric ought to be responsible and then he's gone back to what he really thinks which is the teachers of rhetoric ought to teach people how to do what they want with with the skill they aren't responsible back and forth and calculus thinks he should have been more consistent ok finally we have polis coming back in at the end of this exchange with gorgeous and he's just sort of funny he's caught comic relief in some cases but yeah yeah student let's take a look at page 21 in the middle of that page under 461 we have polis erupting with he comes back in and out of the blue erupting with indignation you might say because of all of socrates suggestions right Socrates has been really really strongly suggesting the gorgeous doesn't know right from wrong doesn't care about those issues right and he is responsible for bad students because he doesn't care and polis says how is that Socrates do you really believe yourself what you're saying about rhetoric or do you think that because gorgeous was ashamed not to admit to you that a man versed in rhetoric didn't also know justice and beauty and goodness and if he came for instruction without his knowledge that he would teach you himself perhaps a little inconsistency for a script into its argument that's a thing you love to do turning the arguments questions like this for who do you think would ever deny that gorgeous understands justice and teach each others it's just downright rude turn the argument to such questions what's he done there or try to do by coming in with this attitude of anger and indignation yeah he's definitely trying to stand up for his teacher the guy that he admires most right uh-huh found the authorities off his games are the upset him to move the topic away from the argument with Ferguson yeah he's accusing him of being rude that could be upsetting and that can make you throw you off what you want to say certainly a good technique to use if you want throw people off as make them a little angry latitude at all times and like debates boxer times when somebody's out of ammo essentially this resort to be like it's kind of insulting the person who has the knowledge so post probably like out of answers and so he's like those are the aulia Socrates no no yeah that happens too and that definitely could be the case here that that he doesn't know exactly what to think about this or say but he does want to defend gorgeous and so he gets angry and upset and he accuses Socrates of being rude he's trying to shame him you know and this this is a tactic I don't know if this is what polis is doing it or not but certainly a tactic that you see use in public rhetoric a lot is shaming you know so you should be ashamed of yourself even bring this up or even think that you know try to cut people off from having a an open debate by making something that you can to talk about basically without being embarrassed uh-huh I was just kind of curious I wasn't sure if like in the context of when they were saying it if it actually was this way but it kind of seems to me sometimes I Socrates is a bit rude mm-hmm was he was widely accepted as being kind of a rude guy in the first place yeah yeah yeah he was because he never he never smoothes his statements over or you know allows for say good intentions on the part of his you know his interlocutors he just basically says exactly what he thinks of yes he did have a reputation for being rude along those lines I was one of that it seems to me that Socrates has an opinion you know he thinks he knows what rhetoric is who was he's born it is just it is good and he's guiding every single line towards I kept tripping up aureus on purpose yes yes it he does that a lot thank you for bringing that up he threw his questioning and answering he manipulates the people that he's talking to into showing their own self contradictions into getting angry to show that they don't have any answers anymore so he uses them to make his points and you know it shows the weaknesses of their position and he's all for that but the very weakness but if you see proves his point uh-huh but it also says I give the dialogue itself that he doesn't want to pursue what the other person's thinking it was to be very thorough and thoughtful yeah this question so he doesn't skip over it right he is very very methodical and this also gets criticized you know because he will take little baby steps along the way to get to get the other person's point of view out and then you'll use those steps kind of trip a bobber to show the inconsistencies and so he's very very good at it and some people react to that as almost a form of intellectual bullying you know but but frankly if you're not that good at it then maybe you should become good at it before you you know have half discussion with Socrates but but yeah it does seem almost unfair at times because he just sort of gets people stuck in little corners and takes them down paths and so forth through through his questioning he is not always a likable guy I think that he doesn't Socrates did not really care if he was a likeable guy you know he wanted to be right and he wanted to persuade people you might say or convince them through argument not their emotion so for him the strength of his argument should prevail and of course in the world as his opponents point out arguments aren't always the strongest another is logic isn't always the strongest thing out there you know that will move people this is a whole problem that Socrates does acknowledge but still fights against he's still a believer in the power of logic and the power of reason to get people to to knock them off of their preconceived notions or their opinions to something better that's what his quest is so

Channel: Political Philosophy: Dr Laurie Johnson

Views: 717

Rating: 5 out of 5

Keywords: Plato, Gorgias, Socrates, political philosophy, political thought

Id: pAvR9Ki4eNA

Length: 66min 16sec (3976 seconds)

Published: Thu May 26 2016