Plato's dialogue, the Republic, book 1 - Introduction to Philosophy

so today we're starting one of the great works of Western literature which some of you I think may have read at one point some of your classes and you may read again in some of your other classes Plato's Republic it's one of his longest works we're not reading all of it we're only reading four blocks although books is kind of a strange thing to call champions anyone know why they call them books instead of chapters through these ancient texts anybody ever heard of this sort of thing what it books look like before we had books that for middle those are actually a relatively modern invention think back to like your Western Civ classes or or Western history classes or world history classes but people right on first you remember yeah exactly yeah I mean first they wrote on these these clay tablets but those are very inconvenient aren't they you can only look at one page at a time then they started using Scrolls and when you see a text and it says you know Republican it's got ten books but that literally means is there were ten Scrolls and your book was like a pouch that had these scrolls in it and when you wanted to read you know chapter three you'd get out the third scroll and scroll down and out of the computer sense but it's not ancient sense and you'd actually read it like this you'd be turning one while you're turning the other and you look at it and actually all ancient books were that way until the adventure what we call the word Allah which is what we used to the books of pages that was the innovation we can always talk more about why they did that later on maybe I will tell you about that when we get to Epictetus and Stoics so book 1 is the first scroll and why did they get oh stop it at book 1 that's how much you could fit on a scroll so it was a convenient unit of measure as you notice that book 1 isn't all about one single thing though right there's a couple of different discussions and we're actually not going to look at all those discussions we're going to look at two of the big ones mainly and we're going to skip all the background material I was going down to the PI Reyes and now you know these guys caught up with me and they started talking about horse races and you know torches and all that we're going to skip all of that because that's that's nice background information but it's not really essential to to what we're doing here if we're doing a play go class you know I've just played all the whole semester we might talk in greater detail about that so you know with any dialogue just like a play you've got a cast of characters and so far what we've been doing is you know one one character Socrates gets up doesn't monologue talks a little bit with latest write the apology then we did the Credo and how many people were there and that's kind of a trick question how many of you voices three right so credo Socrates and the law is very good and Socrates you know it's kind of a trick question because Socrates is being like a ventriloquist isn't he he's saying laws would say this and then we used to throw we're back to just two people talking now we got a whole bunch of people talking so I thought you might be good to start with this just to introduce you to these characters so you have someone here who's because one of the skills that I want you to have reading these things is figuring out who is actually saying one who was taking one position it is easy to mix these pieces with these different people up again you know confuses Socrates talking here or is this precipitous Tristram against this position what is Socrates actual position so Socrates I don't need to talk about him you'd already know him right you've gotten to know him a little bit catalase is an old man and all of this dialogue actually takes place at the house of catalase he is the one who's hosting the party he talks a little bit at the very start with Socrates as Socrates you never come to visit me anymore and Socrates and him get into a discussion about in a whole-day age and his old age good or bad and then as soon as Socrates raises the key question for the whole walk the whole of the Republic capitalism does the prudent thinking he says well I think I gotta go and check on the dinner I'm gonna go and leave that leave this stuff to you and he says homework is you in here at the argument we pull Marcos that's his son and quite as fun as his other son quite a fun doesn't talk much Paul Marcus does that's so much and then if Socrates is hanging out with Dad Anna Manzo's Adam antis and Vulcan are brothers too so Socrates is kind of a middle-aged man these are all young men these are those young men that Socrates is corrupting who are learning how to argue from him who are picking up on his example some of these are mentioned illegally in the apology you know Socrates is saying hey if you think I'm screwing these kids up so badly why don't you actually bring some of them and take a look at and see if they're any good and if you read through the Republic you will see that these are good young men they have their head on straight this guy's a different story certificates certificates is not from anthems he is through Simba kiss Chalcedon or confidante when it was I think it would be how it would be pronounced he is sort of a gun for hire except he doesn't doesn't fight with you know swords or anything like that he fights with words he is what you call a sophist one of these people who Socrates got confused with who makes the worst argument appear the stronger who teaches people how to argue well so as to win and is not particularly concerned about what's true or who's actually right or anything like that you might think it's like a debate coach or any of you had two big teams in high school it was really interesting I worked with the debate team of Bennett at FSU and I found out that debate has nothing to do these days whether right or wrong or even who's got the better argument they just learn how to do talking points and about quick right how many listen to me you're like wow that doesn't even make any sense but the judges sometimes get convinced throw Civic is would have been one of those people training them and through Civic has has some very definite ideas about things and he lets you know he also has a you might say a character or a way of presenting himself that replicates the position on justice that he's going forward so all of you who read the read the Republic what's this kind of like this Turkish guy pick some adjectives or we're now calling this map yeah he's rude yeah I mean he says you know Socrates you know aren't you finished you know weaning from your wet nurse she's a white girl you're you know dripping nose that's not very nice isn't it but you say something like that says somebody that you're having a discussion with and did it across the table some people do I've been at dinner party what else what else can you say about this guy Basin way to remember from what you read yeah yeah what makes you say that he's selfish okay that's very good he's selfish in one way which is that he wants to do a monologue rather than die he wants to like Socrates says through seven gates you know poured this over us like somebody pouring water a flood and then then he's ready to sit well okay I said my presenting I'm gonna go and you all know people like that they want to tell you their opinion and then when you want to talk about your own views conversation is done all right that's selfish is he selfish in any other ways yeah close minded that's interesting how cozy close-minded it's full of himself yeah I mean he thinks that he knows and everyone else is stupid or foolish weak kind of just like like he's not even money there's no really other way to put it and I think just yeah he is he's he's an ass we you know we have all sorts of words for people like this you know one of the fancy words he's a poor you know he's boorish right we don't use that word anymore we use more right language to describe people like that but it's the same idea and people like that exist in every society and every time it is an interesting case I'll tell you another way you solve it you guys might not have picked up on it he wants them to ping him it's a talk if you want Socrates to pay him so they're having a conversation and now I have actually pulled something like this out of desperation at that times because when people find out that I teach philosophy the first thing they want to do is tell me all about their philosophy and they want to you know pick my brain and sometimes they just want to argue and I don't like to argue with people so I started saying you know I don't give away product for free I I get paid to do this and you know here's my our hourly rate and I always quote something really high and then they leave me alone I got a plane or training usually I don't have to do that but there's some I guess is actually serious even when Socrates to pay him and Socrates ends up you know then this goes to your idea of selfishness socrates ends up saying well I don't have any money but I'll give you some praise I'll make you feel good and through Semak is can't grudgingly a sense - that doesn't mean that's kind of a jerky thing to do - isn't it to be at somebody else's house and say I'm not going to talk to you guys and say pay me but it fits in with his philosophy as we're gonna see what's really interesting about this guy is despite what a jerk he is after Socrates beats him he sticks around through the rest of the Republic he doesn't say anything he seems to have changed his mind about his own views and behavior and he's there to learn and we can explore that later someone some other time but just keep that in the back in line he's not all bad but you know he is there there's something wrong with him something wrong with his ideas so let's look at some of that but before we do that there's somebody else to talk about I'm not gonna talk about capitalist you guys read as arguments about an old age this is not something that you think about very much right because you're all young I don't imagine that any of you extreme sitting inside your retirement portfolio yeah I know but that's because I have been working at it for a while and I'm middle-aged I'm starting to look at that Arnold Schwarzenegger this is kind of a tangent that it kind of puts things in perspective one of the reasons he wanted to come to America years and years and years ago was back in his country in Austria people your age you know moving into their 20s we're already starting to talk about their retirement and he found that so incredibly boring you know he thought what the hell kind of place is this where young people are you know like just looking way way off another horizon at this stuff that's not gonna happen for years and years and they're not actually living their life now so it's not surprising to find out that you're not you know thinking about doing it wealth and old age doesn't do any virtue in old age but you can think about these things now you know in order for you to enjoy yourself now most of you don't have to worry about health like you will when you're old but you do need money don't you there's money enough you gotta have a really good time with money buy all sorts of things one to have money to shop you can go to bars you know it's kind of nice to go to a fancy restaurant not have to worry about the cost you know or if you want to take a cab take it what else my friends for a while total money runs out there's money enough you guys already have you know a wealth of experience don't no pun intended with that Yuval you see people with money and how they pay does money make people particularly happy no it's good to have though it's harder than it's harder to be happy without some sort of money or right why doesn't it enough the other way capitalist is getting it what else is he thinking yeah of course he's at the end of his life he's worried about the afterlife you can be read the end of your life and you got maybe five more years to live and there is it have it in the hell what do you start worrying about make it more money what are you still worrying about some people might even worry about that now yeah I mean by the time that you're sixty you've done something wrong probably a whole bunch of things you know and you start to think about what's gonna be waiting for you and a great beyond a lot of people are able to put those things off for a while and drink it away or play it away or chat it away but when you get closer and closer to the end these things have a way of coming back up to want you even on this side of this great world abide and people start worrying they might even just worry what's my legacy gonna be here so that's this world but a lot of them start worrying about what's gonna happen later on what's that big stuff you know we'll think about our are sort of you know traditional schema here where we you know we're mostly monotheistic religions in this country we tend to say there's a good place in a bad place what gets you in the door loitering all right I'm not going to hell I got the lucky number is that how it works all the money can't buy it again what can see is a good place or sends you down a bad place exactly what you do and what the quality of what they do is if you do enough good deeds you're a good person you do enough bad deeds you become a bad person howls for bad people that one's for good people there's a problem you know what what if you're coming in between you know there's a lot of questions about yeah let's assume it's pretty simple well you know that's something capitalist is concerned we're not that concerned with that though right now all right even I have a minute I'm only 41 so for worrying more about it when I'm 61 so capitalist leaves and polemarchus takes over that Paul Marcus is going to try to answer this big question that Socrates is asking him this is what the whole book of the Republic is about what is justice how do we know what is right and wrong do we have a definition for justice but it can't be something just like whatever makes me feel good whatever it makes me feel warm and fuzzy all right that wouldn't be justice that's what makes me feel good that's something different so what is justice there's a lot of answers to this we're gonna see a couple different answers just in this book of the Republic and an next class session we're going to see another answer and when we look at before Socrates is actually gonna tell us what his position is here he's just you know mostly attacking other people's positions Marcus you've all heard an eye for an eye tooth for a tooth right does that I mean is there something satisfying about them somebody hurts you they deserve to be heard right justice is about deserving I'm giving people what they deserve and we're going to look at some of the arguments that are in that are actually made here how do you know what people deserve well you know they start out talking about cases that are really easy to think about I give you something and I say I want you to hold on to this for me and when I want it back from you please give it back to me I use money or a weapon or I know what you think of all sorts of things maybe some food maybe the family member you know maybe my car and and if you give it back to me that's paying one for you all that's giving me back what you have for me and you owe me right if I lend you some money I expect that money to come back to me someday yeah you know why do we charge interest on if you lend so many money if you feel like you know how to make it worth your while I hope you do could any of you have bank accounts do you tell the bank I don't need the interest they don't say in the face of everything and they pay a lot less interest than they will will charge you why is it okay for them to charge interest just because they can because we're using their service yeah you're making use of somebody else's things so it makes sense you know if if I let you to use my field to farm your crops maybe you should give me something across maybe that's what's fair this is tied in with sort of a notion of fairness too isn't it you could think of it in other ways I bring in coffee one day you know like I go to Starbucks and I get one of those big boxes of coffee and put it up here I say okay anybody who wants coffee come on oh let's say all of you like coffee and I say okay criteria tall people get two cups of coffee short people get only one cup of coffee arbiter is a little a little arbitrary so you get a another cup of coffee think you qualify as tall right so you get another cup of coffee boss is tall in here the rest of you don't you don't me get one cup of coffee is that fair and I get and I get two cups too because I'm tall and then I get myself an extra cup and then maybe I get another cup because I'm over 40 for 200 I got I've got like 10 cups of coffee and do you want now that we've lost the sense of fairness along the way haven't we giving people what they deserve there has to be some sort of measure doesn't there and so Paul Marcus is is he's putting something out there that seems pretty common sensical it's something that we see in lots of different societies this makes them some sense jives with our experience doesn't it there are some problems with it and here's where we get too many arguments socrates raises one big problem right off the bat and you can think about this if anything like this if I give you my gun and I say to you I want you to hold on to this gun for a baby I don't wanna go right right right now I have before but I don't know currently I'm not auntie Gunnar not now I come to you in the middle of the night and I love math and I say you know that SOB I'm going to kill him I need my gun now is it right for you to give me the gunner is it isn't it wrong for you to give me the gun I mean what did what is what is justice saying you owe me that gun don't you see so many timing has somebody you're shaking your hands why are you shaking your head I wonder why wouldn't it be just good yeah so maybe maybe there could be cases where you shouldn't give the person back what they owe let's say you know that somebody's got a drunk you have it and you're their their banker maybe you shouldn't give them their money back clean you know let's say somebody has a prize record collection and they're a terrible depressed state and they have lent it to you and you know they're gonna break it because they get it you know they get something out of destroying things when they're feeling bad hold on to it but you notice this is one of those it starts to get tough doesn't it it seems like it well on the one hand it's just that on the other hand it's not just this is where we get to something that we call a contradictions we have a contradiction you're saying that something is the case and at the same time something is and if you can take the same thing and say that it is this way and it's also not resume somewhere along the line you must have made a mistake think about mathematics mathematics is really simple this way if somewhere along the line you arrive at the result of two plus two eight three you made a mistake somewhere right because the two plus two isn't three it's what we said five nobody said 18 right in that case there's a lot of different ways but seems where you go wrong the other 10 plus we had before or it doesn't April 4 it can't be both unless you this this code can't be both described bluish black maybe and orange at the same time unless of course it had maybe stripes right then it's a stripe to come and then you could still say about each part each part each stripe is either orange or it's blue it can't be both they might get you know it's one of those kind of fabrics where it changes you know the way it looks in the light holographic fabrics well is it still you know it depends on whether you're looking at it this way or this way it's still not two different colors at the same time right in the same place so if you can get to the point which Socrates is trying to get to where any action is both just and unjust there must be some mistake along the way that's why the country because that's what's gonna happen in his arguments whole market says well yeah okay so yeah I get what you're saying don't give the the crazy person who's got a sword or you know whatever is going to do but what's the thing about more common you know examples what do you owe to people and you're just really so giving people what they know or what they deserve let's forget about like the things that people have lent you or anything what do you think people deserve respect okay does everybody deserve respect if they respect respect it's harder it's a lot harder to respect someone that's a factual statement about our emotions it is harder to respect somebody who doesn't respect us should you do you have a duty to respect them even if they don't respect you nobody Hitler should you respect Hitler if he shows up again let's take the ultimate man yeah yeah me good stuff in a whole bunch of other yeah Stalin was was just as thoroughly evil as Hitler was those moths had done so it was Pol Pot you know you can rack up these people or even we just take you know sort of small grant serial killers Jeffrey Dahmer he shows up he's dead yeah video respected I mean respect himself certainly did respect his victims the drill holes it to their heads trying to turn them into zombies that's how we killed them trying to have them into slaves for all sorts of terrible things for he's from my home city well you know that's that's a good question why is it harder to respect somebody who doesn't respect us because on some level we feel that they they don't deserve it right maybe they deserve something differently Paul Marcus talks about in terms of friends and enemies this you know we don't often think of people as being our enemy except you know maybe in other countries or things like that but all of you have friends and all of you have enemies all of you have friends there's probably different reasons why you're friends with this person as opposed to this person as opposed to this person so in general what can you say about your friends they're actually your friends together - yeah there's certain behavioral requirements they should it's really nice to you it may not always be nice I mean I've been the president people where we call each other names and stuff like that but it was all that and fun yeah it's like when they're not serious about like you know like they're never like actually yeah and I mean you can actually have relationships where that's where this fake meanness can seem really mean to people on the outside but it can actually be something that brings people together so inserting the game - what should they feel towards you if they're really your friend okay that's that's our different they should be loyal fades moment you should probably have some evidence of them you know you you get to be friends sometimes with people by going through situations where they get tested okay that's very good - they're open maybe they also keep your secrets something else I'm trying to get at how many often they feel towards what should they desire for you yeah those yeah and successes in the class that's a good way to put it they hope the best for you they hope good things for you they want you to prosper they want you to feel you know safe they want you to feel okay they want good things for you that's a mix of friends what makes somebody an enemy it's not just doing bad things to you and somebody who talks behind your back they're an enemy to you why well because they desire to harm you why do people talk about other people behind their back they want to hurt them you know the person who pushes you down you know on the playground there an enemy - they're just an open enemy somebody who talks to you all the time as if you're worth nothing they're an enemy they they don't like you they may even hate you right that's an enemy you you actually do have a we even have this this word that got coined like 10 years ago frenemy it's a combination person who you think is a friend and so you keep him close to you but you know you also know you really can't trust them they're they're really your your undermine you okay so what what do you owe to friends the ages are good things for you you're not a very good friend if you don't dislike it then yeah right yeah I was gonna say to return the favor everything they provide yeah you should be giving good things to friends to be just if you if people treat you well that you treat them poorly in return Paul Marcus will say you're a bad person you're a user we don't be like that they don't stay friends with people for very long what can you give to your enemies to give them good things should you do this Paul Marcus not not what you feel in your heart of hearts should you give them respect no you should try to kill them if you can that's what they deserve you should burn their houses and you know drive them out of town and undermine their businesses and do whatever you can to them because they're our enemies you give them bad things or evil others there's two real problems with this one Socrates brings up this is a very attractive viewpoint is that this makes sense I mean we may not want to cop to it means we may want to think of ourselves as being nice but this actually does make sense in every society there's one big problem though are we always correct in our assessments about who our friends or enemies actually are think about your own experience how many of you have been screwed over but by somebody at one point in time okay you've had the experience with thinking that somebody was your friend and they turned out to be your enemy right have you ever had the other experience where you you didn't get along with somebody you thought their and they were just you know scum and then after a while you come to realize hey I kind of like this person that's there there's not something wrong with me because I like this person I've actually just come to realize their their good qualities make movies about this don't we you know the two warriors from you know different civilizations stranded on the desert island and they find they have to work together and they actually turn out to be very similar you know this one's got a family back home this one's got a family back home well they tell them they can actually be friends they can trust each other now let's go a little bit further with this I think back to that example where you've asked for it over you were probably giving that for some good things right that was the right thing for you to do in one sense except for the fact that they were actually your enemy so what should you do should have been giving them bad things so you should have been giving them good things and bad things at the same time we got a contradiction the problem is we don't actually know all the time who is actually good and it was actually bad sometimes we are friends with people who are really bad then you know some you know one of the things that you have to go through in your life is the problem many times it's cutting people off saying I'm done with this person you know they're they're no good for they're toxic there so that's one problem with this the other problem that Socrates racism maybe this goes to this notion of giving everybody respect if we if you have to do harm your enemies are you making them better you're making them worse than harming them as a human being put aside any ideas that they might learn a lesson because you know there could be a good point to punish them punishment is when you can flick someone they had the thing on somebody minutes to try to make them better but if you're just you know attacking your enemy are you making them a better person probably making it worse right making it more angry or hateful giving them more reasons you know fuel off by themselves so could it really be justice for you to damage another person then with a just person is really an Adu Socrates in Aeschylus I think that your position is very similar to Socrates position that you should show everybody respect Socrates would actually say that pretty tough to do though is it with some people emotionally so this is this is these are some problems of this position let's go on to through semi cos so what it's persimmon Cass say justice he's much more rational he says all that nonsense about friends and that sort of stuff forget what is justice do you remember the formula you keep saying over and over again interest the interest or what's good for the stronger exactly so justice Socrates that screws with him a little bit that says it mean you mean the biggest guy in the room one of them is they eat the most meat why don't you carry the most it's their interest and certificates you know this is where he starts to get kind of cocky isn't it you know that is not what I'm talking about at all and you know it what I mean is that people who are in charge stronger alert the rulers impose their will what we call subjects and those are the weaker so you know the cop cop has the gun the cop has the billy club and the cop can haul you into jail cop gets to decide what counts is right and wrong not you know when you have your own you know billy club and gun and and you know your own legal system behind you then you get to do it right then you get through stronger in a relationship we could think about this not necessarily in terms of governments or things like that mr. Simmons does you some of you and probably sure had some parents that were very caring and rational and probably some of you have parents who said smiley or the highway and you know when you have your own house you can make your own rules but I'm in charge so you're going to live by my rules that's interest of the stronger and you can you probably said that sucks that's you know BS this this isn't fair and so I wouldn't care what's fair I'll tell you what's fair that's they get to decide the justices they get to decide what what counts as and you notice it always does line up in these sort of cases with the interest in the stronger it's what works out well for them you don't get to play your music real loud when they have to you know go to work or want to watch TV it sucks but you get to listen to it it really matters to me I remember going through this path as a kid back then it was boom boxes and you get trouble and you could say well you don't I should get my time to listen to stuff do you listen to your TV and it's real loud or you know why why don't have to go to bed when you want to go to bed because they're the stronger they're in charge they call the shots how come you get to drink and I don't get to drink well you know they'd say well first of all you're not 21 but then they say because it's my house and I bought the stuff I get to drink it not you you know the interest of the stronger what about in in relationships when you're you know with somebody's who you think your equal with so people ever dominate each other friends or you know dating relationships you've seen that right bullying is a good example of this abusive relationships are a good example of this so you know you can see this happen in a lot of cases and they get to decide what counts as right as just as good the stronger gets it dominate and they get to push their values and their views onto the weaker and often times people will say stuff like well that's the way of the world or you know that's just the way it goes or life isn't fair they're endorsing of you sort of like this where they say might makes right they'll order that one right those who have power get to use it on those who don't and if you don't like it what should you do you don't like being dominated being pushed around by other people yeah what is it what is that going to mean effectively though just push them away and no you gonna push them down you got to become powerful yourself you don't want other people that oppose their values on you become so powerful that you can impose your values on other people cuz that's the real test for power at this sort of mentality now there's I mean how many of you like this nobody wants to counter that there's always you know like this how many of you really don't like this a lot of feelings that way either you're okay with people dominating you and pushing their values on you and not giving you a chance to grow and develop your own really I doubt it but you don't feel too good when people do that to you but that's feelings can we think of any reasons why this can't actually be the right way that's what Socrates is 50 of us because they've given us reasons so let's actually look at some of these these arguments these are actually on the handout that I have put into alluring for you so you can if you don't get them quite right now through there for you it's from the short form so if this is justice then the right thing to do for those who don't have power with you what not rise up powers we'll make the rules your little people what should you do what makes a good person that in that case get rules in place they may not actually be you know the best rules but the rules it makes a good person what makes you a bad person yeah so what makes you the bad person to break the rules then what makes a good person follow the rules and the rules may not make sense because you know some powerful person just made them maybe there may be the powerful person is screwed up we don't know definitely they made the rules to favor them so if the powerful person says we don't like philosophers everybody should get together you know once a day and hate philosophers you guys remember that any of you reads I have native art bless you that book 1984 by George Orwell so there's it's a totalitarian society it's what you call it dystrophy it's a bad place and people who are in charge of really powerful they manipulate all sorts of things behind the scene and they have a thing each day and I don't remember what it's called like a hate the Russian or you know hate party and they get together and they flash images of these people on the screen and you're supposed to hate them and shout at them and this solidifies their their power imagine we did this with with race we did this with nationality let's say the rulers really liked them they wanted us to kind of tough society racism nationalities would be hard to not transgress against somebody I don't know well China's our big strategic right the rest of your lifetime you're going to be hearing a lot about China because they're rising and were sort of sitting still and they're going to be the next superpower maybe we should hate the Chinese maybe we will have leaders who say everybody here better start getting Chinese if you're Chinese that poses some problems for you right maybe then you just disassociate and say I'm one of the good Chinese I don't want a bad Chinese well if that's the case then doing what the ruler is saying even though this seems kind of screwy to us that becomes the existing to do it serves the rulers interest doesn't define society here's a problem what if the rulers don't actually know what's good for them let's say one of us sets up society and sets up the rules of right and wrong and well you know if you put me in charge should because I'd make some dumb mistakes you know I'm smart enough to know that I wouldn't make those mistakes because I actually happen to charge of some things you know I mean tell mistakes when I was in charge of those occasionally you know I would be tempted to if you gave me absolute power I would be tempted to use that power just to further my own interests and then screw over other people and that probably would benefit you I would probably be sadder when I currently happen you know because I wouldn't have any incentive to try to get back in shape or diet or anything like that and you know I'd be eating the sort of stuff that they make over at the culinary all the time really rich desserts and something like that now if I made the rules so that all of you are supposed to you know just give me as much pleasure as possible in my life and I'm in charge that would in one way be the right thing for you to do right because I'm commanding it but would it really be in my interests this is what has happened a lot of times throughout history so you never contradiction there you'd be doing one action and it would be both right and wrong at the same time now through Simba kiss gets around this he says you know I'm not talking about that sort of case I'm talking about where the rulers actually know what they're doing where they're good rulers in the sense of they're they're following what ruling is about they don't make stupid mistakes like and I'm pursuing pleasure or you know killing all their enemies or things like that this is where Socrates comes up with an interesting name and I'll put it over here so this is soccer you think about medicine or piloting a boat or anything you like anything that has enforceable what does that skill Amen that's different things right medicine teams that what's the goal for medicine curing diseases and when when the diseases have been cured we have a state of that we call health very good as opposed to sickness when you're piloting a boat don't crash on the rocks right you're a good pilot if you don't crash you're a bad pilot if you if you do just like if you're a bad doctor the patients patients tend to die if you're good let me get better right you can think of all sorts of cases like this all you are going to major in something all right all of you presumably are going to have some sort of skill by the time that you get out of here and hopefully you're actually good at that because if you're not but then your clients are going to be kind of irritated with you when they you know want you to do this and you screw it up right you want your clients to be happy with you what are these skills aim after they all aim after a certain kind of good certain tenets what he calls perfection so you know the medicine the doctor they try to heal you they try to make you healthy now the skill tells the so are already do considering medicine you're like pre-med - okay anybody going into business like finance marketing what else is big here criminal justice anybody go into criminal justice okay psychology sociology things like that all of these you have things that they're about all these kind of goals all these have skills in criminal justice keep the prisoners actually in the prison until they're ready to come out that's a pretty basic goal if it doesn't happen we're all in a lot of trouble keep the patients alive you know manage the money supply build good businesses these are all important thing and the skill tells the practitioner what to do doesn't matter I mean do you trust anybody who says I'm gonna do doctoring based on my own ideas I've got this system here anybody since whenever somebody starts out a conversation I've got this system that I came up with run because it's probably gonna be bad for you for every like you know one one person who actually has a good working system that they came up with on their own that actually turns out to be true and work well there's a million coops and if you put your money with that or you put your health in their hands or you put your relationship in their hands we think about anyone who's going into psychiatry or psychology you're also about healing people but their psyche is telling them how to manage their lives you want to have any actual skill telling the practitioners what to do is that what the practitioners do they work on the ordinary person and still has actually some way the stronger compared to the practitioner who's weaker isn't it they're telling the practitioner what to do the skill never fails the practitioner may fail when the practitioner is stronger and the person that they're dealing with is right there every once in a while I go to the doctor's office and they they tell me I have a high blood pressure that's usually because I drank like two two pots of coffee and you know didn't eat anything that day and then I explained that to them and they say yeah we've heard all those excuses before a whole bunch of people come in here and tell us those those sort of stories we're gonna check your blood pressure daily this is it happen to be a couple times you know I'm going for like you know I'm a sinus infection they're gonna check your blood pressure because they always do now you're on their radar and they're gonna charge aren't they if you don't do what your doctor tells you you're in trouble you know your stock think of or we could think about prisons right I mean there are prisons that Eric should run well where they're trying to make the prisoners into people who can let out and not have to worry about who's in charge there it's not the prisoners cigars the administration now here's the question that usually ask in terms of the truce images your syndicate is saying that this is set up just so that these people can exploit these people is that how it really works let's think about some professions are there any doctors who exploit their patients you read stories about them every once in a while don't you can you think of any ways doctors exploit their patients sometimes oh that's a big one yeah without their consent I mean there were terrible things that were done to people years ago I probably still being done in other countries you know injecting them with diseases just to see what would happen you know that's somebody to explain somebody else what else do you think of any other kids yeah yeah that's another good I had a friend who was a doctor and I was looking for another job I was thinking about changing my profession and how we see these drug reps going in and out of his office and so I asked him what would it take for me to be a drug rep but I need like a degree in chemistry or pharmacy or something like that you just gotta be a Salesman they'll send you to seminars and you know you'll learn about that drug that you're representing and that's why I don't buy anything from these people because they don't know anything you know they'll take you know they'll take the doctors out wine and dine up and take them to all these nice vacation spots and then what's the doctors supposed to do at the turn prescribed that drug and the Raps unfortunate this is what my friend who's if I could even like them used to be that then if you had like a chemistry person or a pharmacy person or biology person they would they wouldn't have that drug and they could tell you what it would interact with these people who are doing drug drug reppin now they do they have no idea though so you'd ask them well can I prescribe this with this before you guys pose why not you know what that leads to maybe your doctor is prescribing you whatever drug they are not because it's because they're going to get back there there are cases better sure yeah there are cases where people do exploit each other based on their you know standing that they have politicians do this right you know we can all think of corruption politicians that you know give favours to the people that do favors for them that treat the ordinary person pretty poorly we've all seen that sort of thing happen but here's the question you got to ask through some against the saying okay that's the way it is that's the way it ought to be Socrates is saying if you're actually being guided by this profession think about doctors again if you're really following the rules of your profession would you prescribe a drug that you you are just getting paid money to prescribe that a drug company is taking out to dinner and you know tell rooms to prescribe them is that what your what your skill would tell you to do yes or no no you would be following it with the building hands and you wouldn't be exploiting for people who are weaker your if you're actually following your skill you're working for those people you are trying to help them out you're working for their interest not the interest of the stronger the interests of the weaker now here's the question you have to ask yourself with medicine okay it's really easy right medicine is all about healing what's the purpose of ruling of governing who's had an election over in Ulster County I don't know if you guys have one over here in Dutchess County why don't we go to the polls and elect people your father could be like where they look okay electing your personal business you just have like you know crazy views or you know they're not tied to what's good or what's bad what are your personal views about them they're about your work these your interests what's good for you or also you mean you might not you be so selfish still only care but what's good for you you might care about what's good for mom dad brother and sister you know why do the bit your friends your community you might care about the interests of other people and so the art of ruling the skill of ruling would be about doing what's good for the community now if a ruler really is ruling that way then are they just dominating people and exploiting them and setting things up for their own interests we all know people that do that sometimes they do set things up just to benefit

Channel: Gregory B. Sadler

Views: 50,686

Rating: 4.8577776 out of 5

Keywords: Plato, Republic, Thrasymachus, justice

Id: OqZGTtkVmdE

Length: 62min 52sec (3772 seconds)

Published: Wed Sep 21 2011