9) Plato's "Republic," books I & II

hello hello hello oh hey you guys doing pretty good pretty low well tired alright I was up late last night reading through debate stuff that was something that was some we won't we won't we won't talk about that in this class instead we'll talk about a another conversation where somebody acts like a bully today we're going to be talking about Republic and the the big thing under discussion of the Republicans justice which I don't know about you guys I'm excited we've been hearing about it for a while we've been here apparently piety was a kind of Justice that was somehow the the key to what piety was and then virtue apparently had something to do with justice as well although it's not exactly the same thing as just as Socrates points out so this could very well be like a really big key to a lot of the other concepts that were that we've been looking at also because a Republic I don't know if I've if I've really communicated it just yet I'm a big plato fan I I really like the way this guy works it's impressive the way that he just like weaves layer upon layer performative irony and and all kinds of other things it's just it it rewards the person who comes back to the text over and over and over again you're always finding new stuff they're there they're more than texts they're their conversational partners and I really like that about Plato he's an impressive writer nowhere is this more unclear display than in Republic Republic is a long long dialogue we're only gonna read just a little bit of it just some little snippets we're gonna look through books one and the beginning of book 2 today and then we're gonna pull away and look at apology and credo and fado and then we'll come back to a republic again some some later sections but it's it's a long dialogue as a matter of fact it's so long that the the conversation that's being described in the dialogue is one that takes an entire day it starts in the morning and an ends at night and if you were ever to actually this this is kind of something I was mentioning I alluded to just a second ago homework is if you actually sit down and read it out loud if you were to perform like get some friends together and perform it which when I was an undergrad the philosophy Club did this they would do public performances the Republic once a year yeah and you could just kind of like swing it they like people would rotate in and out if you perform the Republic in its entirety it takes about 12 hours it goes from like morning tonight and there are like little places in the dialog where they check in where like in not the least of which is a passage in the middle where they're talking about shadows where there are like real analogues to what's going on during the day for instance in the conversation about shadows there are shadows and then by the time they get to the end of that conversation about shadows and they're talking about instead of looking at the hazy reflections of things as they really are let's look at the things as they really are and not pay attention to the shadows and reflections and and other kinds of icons it's noon and all the shadows have gone away really amazing stuff going on in Republic we'll get just a little bit of a taste of it today there were some hands I didn't mean to steamroll them yes these topics of like ID and in virtue lady parts of justice for novice Christ justice fired by the side because I know that the way is writings are like they're spread out yeah hard to hard to say that would be impressive indeed right if it wasn't just if it wasn't just within each dialogue that he's crafting these kind of very carefully very carefully woven like holding back not exactly saying what he means to say and leaving it to be discovered if he's also doing this from dialogue to dialogue like across different dialects that would be even more impressive that would say like nobody's nobody's that careful yeah yeah so that's that's kind of an interesting work we're hearing from Socrates himself some folks take this to indicate that we're starting to get some shades of Plato himself I think those aren't really going to be found in that opening books that we're looking at today I think this is the places where Plato start speaking for himself but later on the dialogue books five and six yeah so that's something we're kind of noticing that like in the other dialogues that we pray Socrates isn't the narrator now Socrates is the narrator so that's interesting another thing that's interesting about this dialogue is that it doesn't take place in Athens very few dialogues do that they're not in Athens there at Piraeus brief history of Athens stuff Paris is the port city that is like down the the walled up road all the way down to the to the ocean command so it's a little bit ways away there's a big festival there and Socrates goes down the Piraeus for the festival and he's bout to head turn around head right back to Athens and he gets waylaid by a friend so let's jump right in here right introduction where we know all the good stuff happens we hit this kind of little how we call them foreshadowings of all the major themes of the dialogue some of the introduction to Republic Socrates went down to Perez and he get the bells up who Bolton up the limits yeah well they're kissing some of his friends and it might seem a little bit a little bit confrontational but I don't know how did you guys read it you reading this confrontational did you read it as playful yeah it's quick well they're they're friends yeah for sure there is there's totally an element of hospitality going on there we're coloring who says like hey it looks like you're going back to Athens and Socrates says well then it looks the way that it is because I am going back to Athens no not just a funny - thanks not just a funny joke but also like there we go there's a theme right off the bat it's not where we've drawn attention to this idea of a relationship between the way we're not going to get a whole lot of this new books 1 & 2 but this is going to come up in the later books that we read the difference between how things seem and the way that they actually go so seems like you're going back to Athens woman it seems the way that it is and polemic and says what is he saying whoever guess wants him to stay says he like you should stay in Socrates like I like the city guy mix some of the little bit engines to not be in Athens he says okay I'll take it Mallorca says well look how many more of us there are abuse you're gonna have to either power us as a couple you're gonna have to either overpower us or you're gonna have to do what we say it Socrates says did you guys read it do you have the text with you in class once you go ahead and pull it out the very beginning unless I'm mistaken 327 see we don't I might later bullet destroyed us with black Holmes brother Adam antis and the saddest the son of noisiest and some others who must have been at the per second Wow come on Adam and his by the way they're gonna make a reappearance at the end of book 1 beginning of book 2 come on come on and Adam emphasis if you don't know that this wasn't meant to embarrass footnotes are Plato's brothers so these are kind of special characters his older brothers Plato is the younger brother of glad time i'm adam adocus Socrates says politicus I do believe you're showing back to town leaving us a guest rabbi answered well he said you see what a large party we are I do unless you're more than a bet for us then you must stay here isn't there another alternative Socrates says what's the other alternative yeah what a tragedy okay some of the early stuff in this lecture is going to be so good were there any quiz questions on that stuff for work introduces thank goodness no that's what I get for holding on to the old edition okay all right somebody says isn't there an alternative or I could persuade you voluminous playfully says how could you persuade us if we won't listen so yeah we might have some shades of allegory of the cave already I think we've already got this little exchange I think this is directly relevant to what's going on in book one you'll have to overpower us or do what we say all right we're taking you yes but how could you persuade us if we don't listen first of all of it just are very kind of I don't know about you guys the sort of thing that I immediately identify with you can make arguments but if people don't listen not really gonna do much good right and we've even had some folks in this class articulate a kind of a perhaps a pessimism about how likely it is that philosophical conversation could actually change people's minds and it's totally okay if they don't listen it won't work you can't persuade anybody if they won't listen we have this interchange that kind of articulates a defense between power like the power of kind of like violent strength right and the power of persuasion and what the possible limits of the power of persuasion like we're going to get an interlocutor for Socrates who doesn't really seem all that interested in listening to him and we have this big question well have sakis kind of persuade him if he won't listen spoiler alert the way to get somebody who won't listen to talk to you is to let them talk that's how it ends up working he busts the awakened sound all right so everyone on the floor is so these are introductions of major themes that we're getting already in the introduction they go back to the polemic Chris's house this also means before 336 they go back to the cool air kisses house where some people meets up with kept lists yes Polonius is father so I can't believe bear comes out this is criminal I'm going this this might be the end of this this book this class so templates is promote this is father and the little kiss kind of drop some off and Socrates company capitalist it's like Socrates you don't come around as often as you really should come sit talk with me and Socrates said it's like good I'd love to sit and talk with older folks after all they're people who like travel the road already that we two are gonna have to travel someday so tell me keV let's house old age going for you a lot of people complain about old age they say it's a real bummer in capitalist says not so bad for me I'm actually enjoying it i I too have heard people who complain about a whole day they can say that it's no good but uh yeah get it and Socrates says you know some people might say that the reason why old age is so easy for you is because you're rich Capulet says do that they're totally might be something to that then he says this kind of this reminds me a little bit about at home you know the famous Athenian who and noble Athenian who it was said like yeah you wouldn't be all that famous if you weren't from Athens and the guy says back to the other guy yeah that might be true but if you were from Athens you probably wouldn't be famous so it's the sort of thing couple that says the same thing about money he says yeah you probably right then money helps but a lot of the people who complain about old age my senses even if they had money they still wouldn't be happy they wouldn't enjoy themselves it's not the reason kappa let's get into it really fascinating conversation I was expecting to have with you guys today and Jared why not even though you haven't read it cos foresty Baird cut it out of our book Socrates asked kept list what is money good for what is it that you can do with like a lot of people seem to want together do you want money yes yes why what do you do with money spend it by stuff is this stuff gonna make you happy yes yes it does rather crying to mention than cry on the street rather not cry at all to be honest with you is the money gonna help me not cry all 27 seriously we spend an inordinate amount of our time and energy pursuing wealth why do we do it and sometimes we pursue it to like what might arguably be excess is there such a thing as excess one can you got too much money yes too much money in the sense that it's it prevents you from being happy you can put too much effort into getting money but you can't get too much money no matter how you get it in fact we might talk about people here's here's an example of somebody who puts almost no effort into getting lots of lots of money people who win the lottery anybody ever seen any of the profiles on people that win the lottery newsflash they ain't happy those four are miserable in which they've never won the money which some of us might say you're happy it's just like like who say the means to yeah money itself isn't good right to means join it then again you might not have to do bad things to get the heroin but yeah perhaps we might say it depends on what you spend the money on right so yeah this is this is maybe even kind of familiar territory we saw some things at this in me know as well this question of desiring beautiful things and having the power to acquire yeah so people bother you when you have money they want you they want you to give the money to them yeah I don't know that because I've never had lots of money but yeah just question what money is good for and careful with sense of giving an answer and it's actually a pretty profound answer it's a it's a fairly wise answer it's one of those answers that like if I was talking to my wealthy grandfather and he said this I might write it down in my notebook he says money is good because it helps you to be a better person and what he means by this is if you have no money at all there is an incredible temptation maybe even something that we might call the a coercion to do things like live feed and steal if you have your back up against the wall so badly that you don't know if you're going to be able to feed yourself it's very very difficult to beat yes relatively easy to be just a couple that says it's easier to tell the truth and pick ones bits and he kind of sprinkles a little bit of Greek theology on top of it and says like this way now that I'm old I'm not worried that like I'm gonna have to pay a bigger debt when I go to the underworld I'm not worried that if we might take it in that kind of like a more contemporary rather just sort of register I'm not worried about my eternal fate and whether or not you know things are gonna kind of go back for me in the afterlife because I know that I told the truth I will always tell the truth and I kept my promises and I paid my debts I'm not gonna leave this world with any debts left behind and it was relatively easy to do that because I had money because I never really had my back up against the wall this is a really interesting claim it almost seems like we're saying like it's harder for poor people to like tell the truth and pay their debts right it's harder for poor people to live a just life and that seems like it might be a little bit of a knock on the character for people but on reflection it does seem like there's some moral hazard that comes along with being not just like not as rich as some folks but being like seriously broke seriously broke where you feel like you have no choices but to do dishonest things yes this is true and we'll come back to capitalism when he said to the other guy as well that look just because we have money by the way doesn't mean you're gonna be just it just means that you don't really have too many excuses for not being just and this is justice after all temple is opposite he says this is what justice is it's telling the truth and it's paying ones debts and Socrates says that's interesting so are you telling me and Socrates goes into a Linkous mode with careful this year he said are you telling me that if like you've had a neighbor who asked you to like hold on to your note if you have a neighbor who asked you to hold on to his weapons and came back one day and was in a murderous rage and said give me back the weapons I'm gonna go kill somebody they're his weapons to keep your promise and to pay ones debts is to keep them back to you is this is the just thing to do to give the guy his weapons back and kept Allah says and he said yeah and he said like I gotta go tend to the preparations for the peace but I'll hand the conversation off to my son he's gonna inherit the conversation just like he's gonna inherit everything else for me and politicus to a certain extent inherits the definition of justice that capitalists hands down ship to which is oh this is something that came up a little bit when we were talking about you through as well like we in do inherit a lot of our moral principles a lot of our sense of like what justice and other things are from our parents and politicus does what most of us do with these principles when we inherit them from our past he puts a tiny little spin on it and he says like make it just a little bit different politicus says justice is giving people what their own and obviously the the really difficult part in this is this question of like what is it that people are owed right justice is giving people what they're owed and Socrates like yes but what are they owed implemented says easy benefits to our friends and harm to our enemies what do you think sound like justice benefits your friends harm to our enemies and Socrates says wait what do you mean by friends and enemies we're gonna talk about our real friends and our real enemies are just people that we think our friends or we think our enemies the ones who seem like friends and seem like at me there's that being a seeming distinction which are we talking about Telemachus of course like who's gonna say just the ones who seem like friends right he says real friends and our real enemies sergeant says who are our real friends and who are really are you mean to say that good people are our real friends and bad people are our real enemies employer this is like by Zeus Socrates of course how could it be otherwise and something he says that's what I thought you might say how does this sound now does that sound like justice good things to good people bad things to bad people oh that's a conversation for another day but let's say that we could reliably distinguish between good people and bad people and it makes you feel any better we'll just toss out I'd like what like a couple of like very obvious examples bad guy he deserves harm good people Gandhi deserves benefits one might even think about this says like the cosmic justice is on offer in the afterlife right good people what do they get heaven it's very nicely here bad people what do they get yeah the other place which I hear is not very nice benefits to good people harms to bad people that's justice and Socrates says you no harm to bad people they're already bad doesn't hard to make people worse aren't the bad people the last people that we want to harm if anybody needs benefits it's the bad people to make them better what do you think about that part of them until they're good is this this is a peculiar brand of pardon that makes people are you thinking of punishment is that everything about punishment is related to people who do bad things people who do the wrong things we give them punishments to make them better mad at you so maybe what we've got here is a difference between Socrates questions that's harmed an enemies part that's the last people that we want to harm we want to make the bad people better we want to make our enemies better and so shouldn't we be benefiting them notice there's this question of like punishment right and this exposes of baby these aren't the only kinds of justice that have to do in punishment a big difference of opinion or difference of intuitions that have to do with just punishment are we talking about a retributive sense of punishment just punishments where justice are retributive sense of justice are we talking about a rehabilitated when somebody gets punched what's our aim is our aim to Harlem or is our aim to make them better always a lot of times policies that are able to deter criminals from doing certain actions other people will talk about making sure that yeah yeah ostensibly the goal right and deterrence is actually that's it that's a different form altogether retribution isn't necessarily about deterrence because it's something like definitely we might try that statistics in Carolina doesn't really work as a deterrent at all that there's no evidence that it works as a deterrent at all and some folks would still have a very strong intuition like some of you might even be in the room a very strong equation that if you callously murder a large number of people and show no regret for it you deserve to die and that's nothing to do with deterring other people from doing it has nothing to do with making you better it's how I'm not thinking to make something better by killing them it has to do with I for it all right it has to do with retribution you deserve it you did bad things so now bad things need to be going to you this is the sort of thing that I we're not a whole lot of time thinking about it right now cuz it's in the class on punishment and justice although that would be a really cool class but I think it's an important thing to think about and it like you would be shocked how many people at very very high levels of administrative authority like I caught in these sorts of conversations where they're talking about like for example and academic judiciary hearing where somebody is plagiarized and the person next to me is saying like what we have to make the punishments really hurt and I'm like why why are you trying to hurt the student the aren't you trying to help the student what is the what is it more like what is this business our activity that were engaged in that tries to harm students no this is no good we need to make sure that we're helping them that would be if we're taking a rehabilitative approach as opposed to a retributive approach comes up in political conversations as well every time you hear somebody's talk about giving prisoners opportunities so they can become better and more productive members of society you hear somebody say well we don't want to call on them right we don't want Jail to be a nice place you think you're gonna make and what do we think of the prison system do people get better when they go into it so if rehabilitation is our goal we're not doing a very good job typically there are some folks who like have some time to reflect and they come to Jesus there are like a lot of other folks who like they go to jail and they come out works that's a problem if we have a rehabilitative approach to justice whoever attributive approach to justice then yeah harm for harm right yeah rehabilitation you don't think it is the only it should be isn't that like part of making somebody a better person get them to not commit crimes are you a bad person if you commit crimes you're doing bad things if you commit crimes if the crimes are like violations of just laws then yeah you're doing unjust things I don't know if that's enough to make you a bad person but it might be enough to say that your character needs fixing if you if you demonstrate a persistent tendency to do unjust things I think we're starting to get into the territory where we say you are a character this is not to say that it's unfixable that will never came to you necessarily but something would need fixing this is if we think that people can change again right we think that people can't change once an evildoer always an evildoer then sure maybe there's no point to rehabilitation we'll say it's impossible yeah you probably you're there was a scale you're not at the very very like extreme of it yes do you think that the speed limit is at just long recommendation the recommendation is you've got tickets we'll see this in a public key in credo there might be some room for like the willful breaking of unjust law yes any custom said that as well that's working but yeah if if your violation of the speeding laws is a is a protest against the unjustness of those speeding lawns then maybe more power to you I'd being content not be part of your protest because I happen to think that driving too fast is really dangerous not just for you but for everybody yeah yes yeah it's funny how that works right yeah like one study ancient philosophy right it's all old stuff nobody cares about justice today or the computer between retribution and rehabilitation or this kind of bizarre tendency to sometimes want to harm folks who do bad things as if that's gonna make them better yeah so yeah yeah for sure totally relevant to our conversation today Socrates Turkish cross-examination of Telemachus gets the little kids to come around and say like ah it's giving people with their own and what are they own benefits to our friends and what to our enemies benefits benefits to everybody that's justice justice is what gives everybody what they need it's what gives benefits to everybody now benefits might be different than we might be thinking yourself like whoa where are we going to reward people for breaking the law or gonna reward people for doing unjust things no no not necessarily we're going to give them something that's going to make them better this is what I benefited something that makes you better better and you're not the ways that parents punish their children do they do it tomorrow do they sometimes say things that we don't believe as children but like maybe we think that they believe it things like this is for your own good this is gonna hurt me more than it cuts you that might be a better model for punishment thinking about the way that up what is a loving punch dude trying to make you better right it's a benefit for somebody who needs correction and by the way if we're kind of curious about like yeah that's where maybe we should talk about you know this kind of strange ambiguity between things that seem harmful but are really beneficial I'll remind you we've been talking about this in every dialogue so far right every single interlocutor claims that Socrates is harming them and Socrates says am I am I really harming you by making you confused or is this in fact a benefit I stopped I don't work and so she was like well you can't play you know your yes in tennis anymore you're gonna have to start doing more books perhaps a good punishment seems like a harm at the time yeah time in the world for me it's like medicine right that tastes good but it's good for you yeah but it's been cut out of your coz yes all right we have ten fifty that yeah I'll go through and I'll make sure that I count all answers correct yes by the way if something like that happens again if you just like he's like he's asking a question it's not in the text shoot me an email let me know I can fix it before it you mean doesn't seem beneficial to the nor is it beneficial for them yeah it is beneficial for them that's what I mean yeah because that's what a benefit is it's something that makes you better just using the words according to what they need right what a benefit is is something that makes you better well then it doesn't actually make them better then they'd only seem to benefit and it was trying to sort out exactly what the real benefits are from the things that only seen benefits that's a tough job we're not tackling that right now we're merely trying to like is it is it relatively uncontroversial that first we should try to figure out what we're aiming for before we try to figure out how to hit it okay what we're aiming for according to Socrates and voluminous is justice and what is justice it's giving people what they're owed and what are people out everybody is owed benefits everybody is going to owe is going to be owed whatever makes them better justices to the benefit of everybody and justice farms no one seemingly a very bold claim and and then like if the cyclic seeking justice wants to harm the other side then I've got questions about whether or not they're really seeking justice or if they're just equally tributed satisfaction or something and I don't know that that's gonna make them any better then perhaps what we have is differences of opinion about exactly what's going to constitute a benefit and what's going to constitute a harm or perhaps we have differences of opinion about whether or not everybody's own benefits in justice ready in which case we may very well say and I think politicus and Socrates would say this those people have justice wrong the folks who are upset by justice that tries to benefit everybody in that want to insist that somebody be harmed in justice políticas since Socrates in fact they say it together they say will band together and will fight against anybody who says otherwise and this brings us to 336 with racemic is like a tiger in the tall grass Socrates spots him and he says and then I saw four Symmachus like just just like just coiled up ready to pounce and he comes in just with a roar into the conversation and right off the bat what a jerk doesn't take very long at all to get a sense of future Zima kisses Priscilla kisses assault-style softest he's aggressive he's unnecessarily mean and let's cut to the chase precipitous things but the whole point of the conversation here is to win your sympathies thinks that he's going to win this debate when he defeats Socrates Socrates has a very different idea of what the conversation was going to be like medic back right off the bat through some I guess criticizes criticizes that's almost too kind chastises is that too that insults ridicules that's the word I'm looking for person I guess ridicules politicus and sovereignty you say like you guys look like a bunch of idiots like a bunch of goofy children just like going round and round in circles I'd let you come to an agreement right like oh we're all going to agree with one another you guys don't know what you're this is this is child's play Socrates you're doing this thing that everybody knows you do this thing you ask somebody a question they give an answer and then you ask them more questions until you bring them around to agree with you wanted what you wanted them to say I ain't falling for that you tell me Socrates you tell me what justice is and I'm not gonna let you take some kind of like baloney way out by saying it's the advantageous or it's the beneficial or the be able to fall or something like that tell me what justice is and Socrates says well first of all hey how you doing second of all they didn't tell me that like you want me to answer this but then you're going to take away two possible answers for me what if I actually thought that justice was whatever is beneficial you said I can't say that what if that's what I believe and maybe say something that I don't believe true Socratic fashion he's like you're gonna take that like I don't I don't know how to answer it dilemma Chris and I came to something that we both believe if you say that's not allowed then I'll say you got something better from some kids who there it is turns it around you got something better through citizen Ximena says yeah I got something better what are you gonna give me if I show you that my definition of justice is better than yours what's my reward for this what am I going to get paid and Socrates instead of getting my respect I don't have any money there are plenty of other wealthy people here you're going to tell us what justice is then I think that's a valuable thing like we don't we can all be willing to pay you to tell us what justice is but it would have to you'd have to actually give a really good answer we'd have to actually be what justice is that's Russa Mika says all right buckle up buttercup cause here it comes justice is the advantage of the stronger and Socrates Socrates says what you mean like very strong people like like the the guys who fight the pantry of time every time was like it was like ancient Athenian MMA it was like no rules except for I think maybe no biting and no kicking people in there but anything else goes ok couch eyes all kinds of stuff like that and sorry says humans like the big strong guys whatever's to their benefit that's what justice is so like if it's like eating meat then like that justice is eating meat that's like what's to the benefit of all the strong man and for silicates and rightly so by the way says give me a break man stop it's not playing around first if you've been waiting by the way for somebody to like put up a serious fight against Socrates if you were like I'm just getting tired of all these Yes Men what a treat we've got for you now what's that yeah you're nauseating later on he says he said something about how like your nose is running I'll be like yes yeah yeah look after that actually that's like what's that little turn happen it's like nothing of serious interest most and that's actually might wonder like why does Plato let it run for so long okay yes this is the advantage of the stronger so what does he mean by this basically he means - right people who have power say that justices that's what justice is about looking for justice it's are you gonna find justice there is no real but this is this is this is the big and I think this is a very interesting challenge than platonic Socratic approach to these sorts of questions thinking about like justice it's giving people what they're owed what does that benefits to everybody and then we talk about our own justice system who say is that what it does let me go no not even close sometimes it seems like it's not even trying what's more real what's the more real justice is it the justice that's the ideal that never happens anywhere maybe we get close sometimes but we never get like absolute like justice that benefits everybody involved what's more real this abstract ideal of justice or the thing that happens every day and that people call it justice this is may be relevant to some of the the response of their reflection response attendant scene whereas some folks are kind of getting a little frustrated with trying to define these slippery terms like piety and virtue and they'll say like god it's just it's just a word it's whatever people say it is justice can be the same thing they're right justice is just whatever people say it is and who are the people that get to decide what justice is for everybody else it's the people in power it's the strongest people and that's all that justice is I'm gonna track this by talking about lowercase J injustice versus let's promise capital K justice where lowercase K justice is that's maybe the advantage of stronger capital K justice maybe that's the sort of ideal that never actually happens if this is the big challenge the Socrates this is actually a really interesting one what is more important the idea that never happens or the thing that happens every day that passes for justice the ideal that never happens you can join Socrates camp I suppose anybody ever knew anybody want to say like no it's the thing that happens everything they're like the ideal if it never happens how can we call that real in fact what words would he even think of to kind of juxtapose against ideal ideal versus were you as if it would be horrible so pay attention then if this is an attitude that we encounter on a regular basis or this is an attitude that's somewhere in the room that like somebody is just kind of like I don't want to get torpedo fished here the only justice there is no bigger justice than that just it's just a word it's just a word that we use and it means however we use it you might have felt that way about piety that might have been an easier sell that way about justice that's hard that's her mostly because you want to be able to say like if an injustice has been done and everybody gets gathers around and says like that's justice and the injustice was done to you you want to be able to say that is unjust you want to be able to appeal to something more than just what people say perhaps maybe you're going along at popular sure and this weapon snipers talk yes justice this is so this is what came up in the the standard stock was it last week let's recap this question were like yeah I do philosophy and like is it always there spiders conclusion at the very end if we followed him all the way through it was was that like you know we do need this but we had some pushback from others including professor banner concentrate so yeah maybe there is like there's a place for one of there's a place for other for the other and we could have a question about like maybe it's just a contextual difference right when we say justice we might want to check and say which one do we need lower case two adjustments capital change justice to get here on that would be important justice is the event for the stronger might makes right Socrates says oh and by the way once the resenha kiss has done this he says pay me I did it that's like that's better than any answer you're gonna be able to come up with soccer is like well that's uh that seems like a very impressive answer let's take a closer look at it and see what happens in your something it says do your worst you're not gonna be able to harm me here Socrates says it seems like you're saying that the people who were in power get to say what justice is right that's what you're saying through some kissing through something the same like yes you finally understood me you twit Socrates says what about when their ruler makes a mistake and here begins a kind of what seems like maybe a detour in the conversation where they're not talking about justice for a little while they're talking about rulers and the art of ruling and just to make sure that everybody's on board with this what I think is a very like small shift there are we following the like why it's relevant yeah because what makes a ruler a good ruler they rule it justice right and this is going to depend on like what we mean by justice right simcha seems to be saying whoever's the decision ruled is for the side which justices and Socrates maybe wants to hold that for like a ruler so what about when the ruler race of a state soccer team guess what about when the ruler makes a rule that is not actually to their benefit that it's not actually to the rulers advantage what's the rest of like what are the rest of us supposed to do in that circumstance either we're going to go against what the ruler had said in which case seems like we're going to do an injustice because the ruler gets to make the rules that's all the justices and also it seems like they're going to do something that's harmful to the ruler and I thought justice was the advantage of the stronger so it looks like it's kind of like no matter what they do if the people comply with a mistaken rule made by us taking a mistaken rule that if they comply to that rule they're going to do the UH adjusting if they don't comply with that rule they're going to not do the wait don't compile that rule they're gonna do the interesting they're kind of caught either way so what about when the ruler makes mistake what do we do then yes precisely since and I should point out here that this is the big mistake there's something we're looking to kind of track that was he like where did suck the research just get beat by Socrates that's where it is all the rest of this is just kind of unfolding it like he gets he gets taken in like broad circles by the end of it he's saying justice isn't even a good thing and like you'd be a fool to be a just person smart and clever people there he says I D a ruler in the precise sense justice if I was saying what makes this an interesting claim what's different about this than what Socrates is peddling is that it seems like persimmon goose is talking about what actually happens not ideals that never happened Pacifica says I mean the ruler and the precise sense after all if you had a doctor who was harming their patients they are precisely not a doctor when they are harming their patients right like let's say I think we've been in this territory before we're gonna do it again invader but like if there was a little hole in the bottom of my water bottle is it still a water bottle but it's not holding the water anymore is it a and forgive the expression is it a bad water bottle yes so far it's got a hold on it and it doesn't hold the water anymore so we say like it's still a lot about was just a bad one about what if the whole gets bigger what if there's just no bottom to this bottle it's just not a bottle anymore all right so we've got this there's there is this kind of like big boundary between like how bad of an - something need to be in order to be a non ex right and through summer kisses drawing a pretty sharp downer he says as soon as the ruler or anybody else right as soon as a doctor stops improving the health of their patients no longer a doctor right that's that exactly the moment when they're not a doctor so we'll say the same thing about a ruler here a ruler who makes mistakes is no kind of ruler they're only a ruler when they don't make mistakes I made a ruler in the precise sense and basically what he's done here is he's now crossed back over and he's in like the conversations now in the territory of the ideal instead of what actually does happen and that Socrates his playground he's coast from here on out yeah if the mistakes in question here are mistakes about what's actually going to be to the advantage could be stronger what will actually benefit right so what do you mean but the rulers making mistake in both cases I feel like we're in familiar territory here well what we're talking about here is a ruler who gives a rule that they think is to their own advantage but actually is harmful to their ruler now again parsing what's uh what's seeing what like what the difference between things that seem beneficial and actually are harmful for things that seem beneficial and are actually beneficial parsing that difference is a very difficult task we're talking in the abstract here Socrates says what about a ruler who makes a mistake what about it like is this possible would you admit that this is possible a ruler says here's a rule that I think is going to be to my advantage turns out the mastery to their advantage turns out to harm a ruler so if you admit that that's a dude what's that what's beneficial for them not what seems beneficial to them but what is beneficial for them yeah sure so my office never sometimes talked more about this so what about when it really makes a mistake and it seems like the rule during a bind here they can't do other than the unjust thing and for cific it says I mean the ruler in the precise sense Socrates then says Oh a ruler of the precise sense huh let's talk about the ruler in the precise sense and he struts a long conversation that plays off of some really provocative analogies between ruling and any other kind of a craft or technique with these analogies of technique and Socrates says ruling is a funny craft in that sense because every other craft seems to seek the benefit of the weaker and check me by the way that's technically it's a Greek air that means craft for part all the crafts seek the benefit of doctors we just mentioned doctors write the doctoring craft what does it seek to do heal people so there are people who are weaker right who are somehow deficient and the goal of doctoring the goal of medicine is to make those weaker people stronger we'll get to get making money in just a second horse training in horse training the goal of the Technium horse training is to find the weak horse and make it stronger right to confer all the benefits of the technique to that horse we want to talk about pottery there's a there's a quote/unquote weak piece of unpaved clay and we make it stronger by giving it for every tech name seeks the benefit of something else and not itself pottery doesn't get better when a Potter makes a pot medicine doesn't get better when a doctor heals a patient the patient gets better every another 10 min seeks the benefit of some other things some other thing that is deficient and weaker and needs to be stronger but ruling apparently is different and this is where the person weakest is Socrates you got a runny nose you need a wet nurse to come in white but for you little brat you miserable tit it's never misses a chance to like toss in it it's up there apparently nobody ever told you about shepherds and sheep you think the shepherds are seeking the benefit of the Sheep shepherds are gonna kill the sheep and eat it Shepherd's seek their oven doctors doctors want money this is why you're a doctor you're a doctor but what to heal patients doctor to make money and talk to me says really is its way turning a central to the tech name if you heal people but you don't make any money off of it are you a doctor are you any less of a doctor if you do it for free if you make money and wear a white lab coat and call yourself doctor Rosenfeld MD but you make all of your patients sicker are you a doctor you get fired what if you didn't get fired what if you got away with it would you be a doctor would you be a doctor in the precise sense no you might pass for a doctor people might call you a doctor but would you be a doctor in the precise sense I don't and so way journey seems to be incidental to any craft that's not what makes you a Potter is that you make money what makes you a putter is that you make pots makes you a doctor is that you heal people what makes you a horse trainer is that you training horses not that you make money from it is what makes you a Shepherd that the Sheep go to slaughter where's what makes you itch effort that you care for the this is an interesting analogy too because shepherds and sheep this is actually a really provocative one from the ruler and their rules right it's the ruler ruling the rule is the rule they're caring for the ruled so that they can back them up and eat them they're a ruler and the precise sense or is a ruler caring for the people and we can think of it like you want theological analogies God has dominion over man and rules man is this what it's like God's fatness and fattening us up for the slaughter to exploit us that doesn't seem like the that's certainly not the chipper chief analogy is that are like strewn all over the Bible unless that would be a very different way to read the Bible right we're only talking about man's dominion over the natural world in Genesis 1:26 is that dominion is it like a shepherd to the sheep in the sense that we can exploit that she for our own benefit or that we're supposed to be caretakers what is the purpose of saying man has her humans have dominion over all of the animals and the rest of nature is it to explain it Bernie or is it to be a caretaker to see its benefit like every other tenant yes sure then we might wonder like yeah so is the essence of shepherding is about getting the wool if you don't get the wool you're not a shepherd you're taking care of the sheep are you doing it for some benefit to yourself or are you doing it for the benefit of the sheet or what and in fact like we might talk about like what do Shepherds actually do we might also talk about like what is the essence of shepherding if it shepherd never heerd their keep never got any wool from them never got any mutton from them just took care of the keep into the ripe old he baited would they still be shepherd would we say like i have you don't make your money you're not getting wall not getting money it ain't real jeopardy this seems to suggest that the art the essence of the art is that caring for the weaker right okay and for the thing that needs your help and all of the wage-earning even stuff that comes along all those benefits that come along for the ride those are accidental incidental yes i don't eat my dog that's right wait what was that part I do I take care of it yes yeah perhaps I'm a dollar right instead of a shepherd yeah I get benefits from it this is all right so this is this is what's going to come up next right not gonna make this in one day there's plenty to do yeah let's do it let's do it we really need the extras we really need the extra day so I'm just gonna skip over a whole bunch of stuff including a very surprising claim that through Seneca Speights resets injustice is actually better and superior to justice and Socrates is like whoa whoa this is this is a really like killer moment if you've ever spent a whole lot of time in discussion slash argument with somebody who you disagree with you might notice that sometimes what happens is you get them to like come around you kind of like what happens is you realize you're just using words differently and there wasn't a real disagreement of ever it was just like people talking past one another sometimes what you find is you have back them up where you realize that like they actually hold a really surprising position such as justice is worse than injustice and this is where Socrates like finds their syndicates and it's not clear through some because wants to be there or if he's just like still desperately trying to win the arguments we'll see whenever he needs to in order to not admit that he's beaten basically what this comes down to is this idea that justice is for suckers and Socrates offers an argument against their sin against the ends words for something that's blessing and realizing that he's beaten and then on in the rest of the the dialogue he's just a yes-man whatever you want Socrates and when it's all done Socrates it's like all right so you agree with me and enforce it because it's like what have you ever had something like this where they just like maybe you're playing a game with them and they realize they're beating and they just stop trying to save a little bit of face that way when they lose it wasn't they weren't really beaten so this is what your sin MCUs does at the end of book 1 glad calming Adam antis those swoop in and say Socrates I think person just gave up a little too easy yeah he had a really interesting point there this idea that justice is for suckers for the record we don't believe this we think justice is a good thing but he said something that got us thinking and we think this is a point that really needs to be explored we think you rushed through the argument we think this really seriously needs to be defended so tell us this Socrates do you think justice is good for its own sake or do you think it's merely good for its consequences or perhaps do you think it's justice good for its own sake or for its consequences morbo and Socrates says I think it's both and glad come on animate to say that's what we thought you were gonna say I don't see how that can be and black on lays out this story the mythic guidance if you heard the myth of God use before myth this guide uses it's a story like we've heard many many iterations of the mythic ideas it plays on a classic mythological truth there's a there's a magic ring when you put it on and kind of turn it the right way it makes you turn invisible have you heard stories like this magic way doesn't make you invisible okay so think about a magic ring that makes you invisible or any power of invisibility is that it seems to kind of be naturally corrupted try this out next time you're at a cocktail party or next time you're on the blind maybe somebody asked them whether they'd like to have the super power of flight or the super power of invisibility they say invisibility do not trust this person there's nothing honest you can do with the power seemingly inherently dunder Keith and he gets away with them he gets away with everything guide these mannequins through this magic ring to be the most unjust person in the kingdom by a longshot and gets away with everything so that everybody thinks he's the most just person he gets all of the benefits of injustice and also gets all of the benefits of seeming just and meanwhile there's some other sucker the just sucker who gets framed for all of guy visas dirty deeds and everybody thinks that he's a terrible person and he's not in it for the recognition so he's never like it wasn't me he just like he just does the right you know these people who like they do the right thing but they don't like about it they don't try to have broadcast it they think that like doing the right thing is its own reward so there's that person who seems the most unjust but he is in fact the most jest and then there's this other person over here guy Keynes who eats the most unjust and seems the most jest and glaucoma Adam and to say who would you rather be Socrates because I think I know what almost everybody else would say what would you say who would you rather be guy B's are the justice sucker maybe I'll be loading the deck there a little bit my same food justice I'd rather be Gandhi's sucker you feel that now that you just had no conscience if you could do injustice and not be even a little bit bad about it you wouldn't even feel guilty this is we're talking Nona injustice in the precise sense right full-tilt injustice you are awesome and you are so good at injustice that you never get caught and you never even feel bad about it that's a that's another just as it gets right

Channel: Adam Rosenfeld

Views: 7,339

Rating: 4.9384613 out of 5

Keywords: Ancient Philosophy, Plato, Republic, Justice

Id: hyW9RB5eWHE

Length: 73min 46sec (4426 seconds)

Published: Tue Sep 27 2016