Pilots Can't Understand JFK Controller

damn I don't have you're not even listening sir you're talking I'm still talking turn left on golf turn left on one eight four left hole short Fox shot some of you may remember one of the very first air traffic control videos I ever did was Air China lost in JFK this audio is very similar we're going to just see who got more lost cam 81.80 heavy uh what's your gate is it are you Clinton A180 okay are you cleared in are you okay well then the left golf left turn on four left pull shorts I have always been there right 11 kilogram and a three and left stack you right Alpha Ultra Juliet that's not for you sir Jefferson 411 tacky Alpha Falls right Julia okay we're going to three one left Alpha hold short Julius JetBlue 4-1-1 and 8180 heavy are you Clinton okay as instructed turn left golf turn left four left I'll short foxtrot one of the first things you need to understand about JFK is that whoever designed it in my opinion designed it kind of poorly because a lot of the ways the taxiways that Pilots have to take in order to get you to your gate or one plane can only fit in there at a time which means before you start going down that Alleyway you have to call and get clearance to get into that Alleyway the ram controller then is going to look down this Alleyway here and see if there's any traffic that's pushing and they're starting their engines or somebody that's going to be pushing back shortly so there is in a traffic jam so what happens then as the pilots are landing and I did this in one of my very first flights as an airline pilot the the captain told me hey this is going to get kind of complicated and here's my system we're gonna land and as soon as we get off the Runway I will monitor the main ground frequency and then you're going to call ramp frequency on this frequency you're going to find out if we're cleared in the park or not I'll take care of the radio number one you take care of radio number two and give me that information then once that's done you will come back to radio number one and you'll take over ground frequency because we all we need to know is if we can get in or not now that was his experience he'd been to JFK a lot it was my first time ever being there so I said okay great that's what we'll do and that's what we did we landed I called ramp I verified if we were cleared into the gate we were came back under radio one took over the radios on the number one frequency and it was like okay great that's and that was because he'd been there before so he understood what was going to happen so the ground controllers in JFK will typically ask you this question okay are you cleared in now if you haven't been to JFK before there will be notes and they will be in your company published the paperwork basically that will explain to you exactly how this airport works because every airport is different and in JFK it will be explained somewhere that this is how it works here in JFK you need to get clearance into the ramp but if you don't read that it's not a common thing that you'll see at a lot of airports typically what will happen is you'll speaking to you'll be speaking to power controls you come in and land they'll hand you off to the ground controller they'll give you the frequency that graph controller will start moving you around the airport as you get close to the rant frequency they will hand you over to the ramp frequency and the ramp frequency will handle you from there going in that's typically how it works that is not how it works in JFK you got to get that clearance come back to the first guy tell the ground controller hey we're good in to go into park the next thing that's kind of strange about this clearance is when the controller says this okay well then the left golf left turn on four left full short box now my opinion as a pilot is that I don't want to be on a Runway unless I'm taking off or Landing for any more extra time than I need to something I got taught by some of the old veteran Pilots when I became a new airline pilot or I think I was even flying corporate that time is one of the guys said you never want to get onto a Runway unless you're just getting ready to take off her land and the reason is is because you can have a situation where a pilot maybe thinks he's landing on for right but he's actually lined up on four left and then he lands and at night they may not see you there's a bunch of different scenarios you don't want to be on the runway any longer than you have to so if someone gave me that clearance of lining up and holding on four laps short of foxtrot if nothing else I would at least query and say hey is there somewhere else we can go or can we exit and hold short on foxtrot short of Bravo or or what something I wouldn't want to be sitting there indefinitely on a Runway I wouldn't want to do that so that's the clearance that if I got given I I wouldn't want to do it and based off of the latan pilot step tapping on top of JetBlue here you want me to have it I think these Pilots are having a hard time grasping everything that's going on and you're about to see why having a good understanding of English is really important if you start flying International okay as instructor turned left golf turn left four left on short foxtrot if I attacked Wolfie and Anthony no that's not what I said turn left golf turn left on right four left hold short spots ham eight one eight zero yes you're not even listening sir you're talking I'm still talking turn left on golf turn left on one eight four left pull short Fox shot foreign now this controller in my opinion is doing everything that he can to get these Pilots to go where he wants them to go but like I said earlier as a pilot I would want to be on the runway unless I'm taking off her Landing I would want to be taxing and waiting there short of a taxiway so instead these Pilots I guess are just making the determination that they don't want to do that either and they're just going to taxi down this other taxiway a couple days ago I was leaving Lima and when I was leaving the controller had a very heavy accent and he gave us a new departure that he wanted us to do at at the airport they switched the runways they did all kinds of things and in doing so they gave us this new departure three of the four Pilots me being the force heard one of these departures is the one that we're gonna go do I wasn't a hundred percent sure that that was the right one so I asked the guy who was running the radio on the flight deck call them and give them the departure that we think we're supposed to be doing and make him say affirmative or negative I just wanted him to do that so that's what he did he called and said confirm firm flying this departure and the controller said affirmative great that's all I wanted and that was the right thing if anyone ever has a doubt the best thing to do is just set the break and then make that call find out and confirm that that's the right thing you don't want to be moving around if not everybody's on the same page if everybody's on the same page that they were to not turn on to four left but they were to turn on to a different taxiway okay great now everybody's there but my guess is that someone up there wasn't 100 sure whether they spoke up or not obviously we don't know but something that's important is listen here to the readback that the pilots gave about holding short even though the controllers said multiple times to go on the four left the pilot is not reading that back the pilot has for whatever reason deleted that or didn't write it down or didn't believe it or whatever it is they didn't read it back and the controller even though he keeps emphasizing to go on the four left the Pilot's not reading him back so what the controller could have done is said set your brake listen to what I'm saying and set it again very slowly even though in my opinion this controller is saying it at a very normal speed compared to what they might be doing if they were talking to All American or English speaking people he's speaking very clear in my opinion I've heard a lot more condensed faster phraseology than what this controller is doing so I think he's doing a really good job but this guy is not hearing for left all the controllers wanting him to do is go onto this Runway and hold right here but instead they start to turn here onto Bravo and then the controller starts to get a little bit irritated when he says this right here this ham 81 laser I told you enter four left why are you on Bravo unfortunately this is 100 on the pilots and I don't think it's an intentional error I think it's really just a grasp of English you have at least two pilots probably more that are up there there sounds like they're coming into park they may have flown all night they could be tired I have done that I have been on the flight deck and we've had delays and what have you you see some of my videos where we're flying for or moving for 20 hours you're not at your peak of your mental thinking capacity after that so you really have to rely on your experience of what's going on and going into thinking is this exactly what's being said here and obviously for whatever reason they're making this decision to turn and there should be someone up there that's thinking no he's saying four left either go on to four left or hold short or four left there's there's something about four left that's being said here they should be able to pick that up and then the controller starts to give a progressive taxi right here I turn left on running four left hold straight foxtrot a progressive or a progressive taxi is something that you will sometimes ask for when you're flying by yourself if you're going to an airport you aren't familiar with and you weren't smart enough to look at the taxi charts before you uh landed there you could ask for a progressive and that basically is asking the controller to give you a turn-by-turn directions as you're moving around the airport in a very busy airport let's say Chicago they're not going to do it but let's say you landed a small Regional Airport and there's only two or three planes that are moving around the controller may give you a progressive taxi hey up on the next one turn left go to taxiways up and turn right that's going to be Hotel they might give you that turn-by-turn directions and that's essentially what this controller is doing when he turned onto that first taxiway he then said go up the four lap but the guy said no we're turning here on Bravo the controller is really doing everything that he can to get these guys to go where he wants them to go but they are not listening and they're lost so check out what happens next foreign and have eight one Angel already contact the ramp and of course that's the risk down there you want to I think he's saying that he could jump Bridge isn't available for him what do you think okay I don't understand okay thank you so these Regional Pilots are jumping in there and they're trying to help out the Tam and tell tell the controller hey this is what I think he's saying the reason controller isn't understanding is why is the guy talking about a jeopard he doesn't he doesn't care about that he wants to know are you cleared into the alleyway or not that's all that he's really concerned about why he is or is not cleared in he does not care he just wants to know are you cleared into that Alleyway these uh Regional Pilots are jumping in saying hey I think he's talking about the Jet Bridge but the controller is he's not hearing that because he's not expecting someone to be talking to him about jeopards he's just trying to find out if they're cleared into the alleyway or not just trying to set the scene here of this next part that's about to go on Camp 8180 the replica hotel is open cam 818 are you cleared into the ramps the question are you cleared in okay then you can't go to the ramp then I opposed to the rap episode the tax-free hotel is open that's it yes I need to know when you get there are you clearing this aircraft walk on the Alley I want to know if you're ramped and all that's open otherwise I can't take you there 56 27 we're listening to the ramp clear stand by Hotel into the ranch sam8180 turn left Fox pack you left Alpha okay okay so now we're gonna get into the controversial thing that I'm about to tell you and that is these pilots who sound Brazilian based off of the accent and based off of the call side uh they don't have the level of English that is going to be necessary for them to work in international operations the he he is speaking English he probably is a great pilot but he is not able to comprehend everything that's going on here now I will give them that JFK is poorly designed there should be a controller that is there like every other airport that you have ramp control sitting next to ground control and that ground controller can ask the ram controller right next to him hey can we bring these guys in on a hotel that's how it should be but that's not how it is and no one has asked me for my opinions on designing airports because there's probably a reason they don't do that but no one has asked me what I think but it should be that way but it's not and they're having a hard time comprehending everything unfortunately taxing in my opinion A lot of times it's harder than fly flying the plane is easy and when you're you get given very concise instructions from one person you're not having to do multiple radios generally unless you're flying in a few sections of the world where you're crossing a bunch of international boundaries at the same time but that's another story but taxing typically can be more stressful than flying itself because it's you're given the very uh the same types of instructions again and again so even if you're even if your language or you're understanding English isn't great you're still able to understand hey this is what they're saying and you're able to comply with it something that most Pilots do before every flight is they talk about a risk and a mitigation meaning we will talk about there is a risk here for example right now I'm in Santiago Chile there is a lot of high mountains so tomorrow when we fly out what will happen is uh if I were to be flying I would say okay this is a risk high mountains we're going to mitigate it by this for example on the departure when we leave out even if we're given a shortcut by the controller we're not going to take it because if they don't realize how heavy we are or what we weigh they may give us a shortcut that put us at risk of hitting a mountain typically it doesn't happen but that would be a risk and how we mitigate it so in this situation here you would typically have the pilot have a risk hey our understanding of English isn't that great and this is how we're going to mitigate it I do the say the thing that you're asking me to do and have the controller confirm it when it's the other way around when I'm here if I don't understand a controller I say confirm this departure and have them say affirmative or negative so these Pilots could have said confirm you want this you want us to go here and hold your foxtrot on Bravo and the controller would have said negative four left and at that point set the break and then say it again and again even if it's five times even if the controller gets irritated it that doesn't matter it's better to irritate the controller and do the right thing than just think that there they want this and then do the wrong thing I have done both I have assumed that they wanted me to do this thing and that was not the thing and I took a small situation and possibly made it worse it didn't end up being worse but it could have been worse so it's just better if you don't know confirm it this right here is a chart coming out of Santiago Chile so you can see hitting a mountain here would be a high risk and that is why we brief something like that when I'm dealing with issues where language is a barrier for example China some controllers in Asia do a really great job speaking English Japan comes to mind they do a great job speaking English because they'll speak in English even to the Japanese pilots and China not so much they they have a very limited knowledge of of or control of the English language but they're able to say the let's say 50 words very clear but if you start saying anything outside those 50 words they're totally lost so this was where it gets important as a pilot if you're flying International or English isn't your first language to at least Master the key words that you're going to be using again and again so that way if you don't understand what's going on you can do the first version like I'm saying confirm this taxi instruction alpha bravo short Charlie just even if you're not very good in English you'd be able to say say that and then you can hear the controller say affirmative or negative that's the easiest way in my opinion that's what I use when I go other places because they're speaking my native language so I set it up so that way they can say one of those two it's a yes or no if they can if the pilots had done this with the controller and said this is what we think you're saying this this and this the controller would have said negative and then would have said four left again but they didn't do that luckily for these latan Pilots there was another set of regional Pilots that were there that were willing to go listen in on the frequency and find out what was the instruction that they were given from the ramp frequency we're listening to the ramp clearance and now again I think JFK should be redesigned that's my opinion if you're a controller in JFK maybe you can tell me why they don't change it because it is super complex when you're moving a in my case a few hundred thousand pound aircraft and we're having to listen to multiple frequencies after a long day I I don't think it's a great design but I don't know no one's ever really asked my opinion on it I look forward to hearing from you until then keep the blue side up

Channel: 74 Gear

Views: 200,811

Keywords: pilot, airline pilot, 747 pilot, 74 gear, pilot Kelsey

Id: YTwkCMQPfWg

Length: 17min 59sec (1079 seconds)

Published: Sun Jun 18 2023