Personal Protection: Double Action Revolvers Part 3 (Ammo Capacity)

[Music] I rot on the ranch today's please bear with gunfire here in the background now today is part three of our three-part series on double-action revolvers in their role as concealed carry personal protection home defense firearms in part one I talked about accuracy and in part two I talked about reloading side note part two generated a lot of questions and commentary so there's gonna have to be a part two a on reloading but today in part three I want to discuss round count and capacity and the importance of those things that today's presentation comes with the normal list of caveats disclaimers and the abbot's such as although I'm going to do some shooting demonstration most of what I'm going to do today is stand here and talk and you're gonna have to put up with my shot and rest pauses and everything else also remember that a lot of what I'm going to say on my observations my conclusions my opinions my opinions are based on my training my education my experiences different people have different experiences so they have different opinions and of course I make no claim that my opinion has its origin in the mind of greatness but remember a lot of what I'm going to say today will generate some discussion than a lot of disagreement and I would ask that before you disagree with my opinion please remember that my opinions are based on my training my education in my experiences and when you're going to disagree with me please ask yourself on what is your opinion based also remember that a lot of what I'm going to say today is going to be complex and I'm gonna be long-winded and it's gonna take me a long time to get to the point so please before you disagree with something I said make sure you're disagreeing with something I really did say now one other thing is that sometimes I'll say there are people of a certain opinion or there's people who think a certain thing and when I say that I am not in any way claiming that I have that opinion or that I think that thing if I were to say there's a place called New York and there are some people who lived there and some people who are from there I'm not claiming that I'm a New Yorker I'm only pointing out that New Yorkers exist so all that having been said let's get started when it comes to handguns for concealed carry personal protection home defense there are people of the opinion that Auto loaders are better than revolvers and they have many reasons for that but as it applies to round counting capacity there are people of the opinion that Auto loaders are better than revolvers because Auto loaders can put more rounds downrange in less time now that opinion and that belief system is based on what I call some supporting beliefs and for some people some of those supporting beliefs are subconscious now there's a lot of supporting beliefs but there's three that I've narrowed it down to that I want to discuss today and I've created for lack of a better term a mathematical equation to help me illustrate that which is a plus B plus C equals D therefore and I'll write down the steps of that as we go so first let's take a look at a in my mathematical equation of a plus B plus C equals D therefore a is the belief that autos shoot faster than revolvers now this comes with three disclaimers the first being that I'm not talking about the first round from presentation the first round from presentation has a whole lot more to do with Carey methods and with the shooter than it does with the simplicity of revolver versus autoloader secondly I'm not talking about competition guns and elite competition shooters I'm pretty sure that Jerry Miculek can shoot a revolver faster than Jerry Seinfeld can shoot an autoloader I'm talking about more typical guns and more typical carry methods and more typical shooters and third I'm not talking about anything that has to do with a reload I mean shot number two three four five six until your revolver runs out of ammunition there are people who believe that those shots can be fired faster with an autoloader than with a revolver but is this true let's put it to the test when we discuss which firearm can put rounds downrange faster I have to take a moment and recognize that yes some citizens have successfully resolved situations even though they missed but I'm of the opinion that it's not how fast you can put rounds range but how fast you can put rounds on target that matters so for this comparison I'm going to use targets now for a revolver I've got my Smith & Wesson Model 29 44 Magnum okay that's not bad but how does that stack up against an auto load well for a lot of loaders I've got my Ruger Mark 3 caliber 22 long-rifle the autoloader is the clear winner however right now some people are singing that favorite song that wasn't fair okay let's try two different handguns so I've got two different handguns and this time for revolvers I'm going to use the Smith & Wesson Model 63 6 caliber 22 long-rifle okay not bad now let's see how that stacks up against this glock marvel 22 in caliber and this time it would appear that the revolver was the clear winner but again I'm hearing people sing that song that's not fair let's take a minute to discuss that so in our first comparison that Auto was the clear winner in the second comparison the revolver was the clear winner but both of those comparisons could be described not only as unfair but as hyperbolic or ridiculous but they did show us a couple of things factors such as what calibers were talking about the design of those firearms the shooter and many other things are going to be far more important than just a simple comparison of revolver versus autoloader so it would appear that the blanket statement that autos can shoot faster than revolvers isn't really true so a autos shoot faster than revolvers we're gonna call that one false but be autos hold more rounds than revolvers let's put that to the test but this time let's do a comparison that I consider to be more fair and realistic handguns can be categorized in many different ways but for today's discussion I'm only gonna divide them into two categories compact concealed carry type of handguns and full-sized types of handguns on the table I've got compact concealed carry types of handguns revolvers and autoloaders now in comparing the ammunition capacities of these handguns I want to take just a moment home talk about rimfire handguns this Smith & Wesson model 63 6 caliber 22 long-rifle has an eight shot cylinder Smith & Wesson also makes a model with a 10 shot cylinder I have seen 22 long-rifle revolvers with 12 shot cylinders and although some people do carry rimfire handguns for concealed carry personal protection home defense purposes for today's discussion I want to stick with things that I would consider more mainstream and so I'm gonna talk about centerfire handguns so what I've got for compact concealed carry type of handguns is Smith & Wesson Model 36 38 special the Smith & Wesson model 637 38 special Smith & Wesson model 638 38 special and the Ruger SP 101 357 Magnum now for Auto loaders I've got the Smith & Wesson bodyguard 380 acp the Ruger LCP - 380 acp the Glock model 42 380 acp the Smith & Wesson walther ppk/s 380 acp now people will ask so let me take a minute and explain it this handgun was made in the United States by Smith and wasn't under license from Walter it actually has Smith and Wesson and Walther stamped on it so it is a Smith & Wesson walther ppk/s 380 acp and the Sig Sauer model 365 caliber 9 by 19 now although there are some centerfire compact revolvers with 6 shot cylinders all of mine have five shot cylinders so how does that stack up against compact autoloaders when we talk about the capacities of autoloaders some people will hold up a gun like this Smith & Wesson bodyguard and say it has a capacity of six and that always brings up the question does that mean a magazine capacity of six or did that mean a five shot magazine plus the one in the chamber makes six and so what a lot of us will say when we're talking about the capacities of autoloaders is we use the phrase plus one so everybody knows that I'm talking about the one in the chamber so the Smith & Wesson bodyguard has a capacity of six plus one the LCP to six plus one the Glock model 40 to six plus one the Smith & Wesson walther ppk/s 7 plus 1 and the Sig Sauer 365 ten plus one sig also makes 12 shot magazines readily available that you can purchase for this now let's take a look at some full-sized handguns now I have some full-sized handguns and four revolvers I have Smith & Wesson model 15 38 special Ruger security six 357 Magnum Smith & Wesson Model 686 six 357 Magnum Ruger GP 144 special and Smith & Wesson Model 29 for magnet now for autoloaders I have my Colt government model 45 ACP beretta 92fs nine by nineteen six our m17 nine by nineteen block model twenty two in caliber 40 Smith & Wesson and FN five-seven 5.7 by 28 now four capacities we've got six six seven five and six as we're with our auto loader capacities Michael governmental has a capacity of seven plus one however these days a lot of times when you buy full sized 1911 platforms that come with eight shot magazines so 7 plus 1 or 8 plus 1 for the 92fs 15 plus 1 BM 17 17 plus 1 the Glock model 22 15 plus 1 and the FN five-seven 20 plus 1 so when you do a fair comparison although most certainly there are some exceptions it would appear that the great majority of the time Auto loaders do hold more rounds than revolvers sometimes maybe only one or two more sometimes a lot more so be autos hold more rounds than revolvers again obviously going to be some exceptions but we're gonna call that one true and that leads us to + see autos reload faster than revolvers now what I really mean is autos can be reloaded faster than revolvers but if I wrote it like that it wouldn't all have fit on one line this one just like a is going to be dependent to some degree on the shooter I'm sure that Paul Harrell can reload a revolver faster than Paul Shaffer can reload an autoloader but still let's put this one to the test now I have my beretta 92fs and we'll do the same drill I'll shoot one shot change magazines shoot one more shot and we'll see how long it takes from one shot to the next [Applause] obviously the autoloader is faster but right now I'm hearing that same song again of that's not fair because I reloaded before the pistol was completely empty which really is what you should do but just to humor the whims of the that's not fair chorus I'll shoot till I'm completely empty in the slides lock back the autoloader is still clearly faster so see in our mathematical equation autoloaders can be reloaded faster we're gonna call that true so a plus B plus C even though we said a is false it really isn't working against us it's really neutral a plus B plus C equals D autos can put more rounds downrange in less time so conclusion autos are better is that really correct well autos may very well be better than revolvers for many reasons but is an auto better than a revolver based on these evidentiary statements the problem is that my mathematical equation that I have made up represents a flaw in logic even when you're evidentiary statements can be shown to be correct or at least neutral but doesn't necessarily mean that they support the conclusion you're drawing from them let me give you an example here's four facts one birds lay eggs too some birds can't fly three a platypus lays eggs for a platypus can't fly so conclusion a platypus is a bird no he's not sometimes even when you're evidentiary statements are correct they're not really supporting the conclusion you're drawing from them so is an autoloader better than a revolver yes it certainly could be based on a lot of things is an autoloader better than a revolver based on these evidentiary statements and based on its ability to put more rounds downrange in less time well we'd have to ask the question does the ability to put more rounds downrange in less time give you an advantage and if so how much of one and we'll discuss that in boring detail right after a word from our sponsor mister fracks oh that sounds like a bad cold why do I hate what's this pain reliever comparison come on they're all the same are they look to regular tablets 650 milligrams these other pain relievers also 650 milligrams 650 milligrams but this one is different 800 milligrams Anacin Anacin has more pain reliever more pain reliever and a special combination of ingredients for my aches and fever I'm getting Addison get the Addison difference if you think that commercial was excruciating to watch now I can assure you it was just as excruciating to watch back when it was on TV but it helps me make a point I want to make back when that commercial was on television there was a stand-up comedian who called himself Gallagher and part of one of his acts was making fun of that commercial and he said some things that were of course funny when he said them they won't be funny when I say them but I think they're still valid such as when you watch their stooge and you give him the choice between 650 and 800 of course he takes 800 on the basis that more must be better and Gallagher said maybe he should ask some questions starting with why not take two 650s and get 1,300 of course the real math is it took two tablets to get 650 s so the question should be why not take three of those and get 975 instead of just two of the Anacin to get 800 but it's funny or the way he said it and the point remains the same Gallagher also suggested that he should ask how much pain reliever do you really need maybe my body only needs 500 and 650 is plenty no there stooge is so stupid he just wants all the active ingredients he can get while limiting himself to only two pills but those same skeptical questions are the ones we should be asking before we jump on the bandwagon more is better in terms of capacity in your concealed-carry personal protection home defense handgun and it brings up a point where I have to put some of my opinions in this and to the question is more better in terms of round count my opinion is yes up to a point now let me see if I can show you something that will help illustrate that point what I have here is a selection of shotguns and I've done a fair amount of hunting with shotguns and the importance of round count and hunting with shotguns can help me illustrate the importance of round count in your concealed carry personal protection home defense firearm but before I go into that I have to take a detour there's a word that's getting thrown around a lot now and there seems to be some debate over just what this word means but one thing I can say to a high degree of certainty is that if someone calls you this their intent is to insult you and the word is but now again there seems to be some debate over exactly what it means but as near as I can tell at least part of the meaning is that if I claim to have some knowledge or skill or information about firearms and their use and that knowledge or skill or information comes from something I learned while hunting then it's invalid for example if I were to tell someone a 12-gauge shotgun loaded with double-aught buck can be very lethal on the intended target even at longer distances like 50 yards and someone were to ask well gee Paul how do you know that and I were to say because I've shot several deer at that distance with a 12-gauge shotgun well then that is completely invalid but if somebody else were to say a 12-gauge shotgun loaded at double-aught buck can be absolutely lethal on the intended target even at longer distances like 50 yards well gee tattooed bearded guy how do you know that because I shot jello well then that's perfectly valid and yeah that does sound kind of dumb when I say that I could go on the long dissertation and talk about Manfred von Rico van and Audie Murphy and now or canned the list of names goes on and on I could go on with the long dissertation about my participation in argot shooting events I've had reasonable amount of success in target shooting and I've found that when I've gone to events and I've taken first place it's very common that the difference in score between first and second place is a factor of one or two percent and it has happened a lot that when I've won the person that finished in second place was someone who had zero formal firearms training everything he ever knew about shooting came from hunting it's also happened that I've taken second place in the person in first place with somebody who had zero formal firearms training so the idea that you can't learn anything about firearms and their use from hunting is to me preposterous but if you are someone who is a bad opinion then I invite you to turn this presentation off now okay if you're still here then let's talk a little bit about round count and its importance while hunting with a shotgun and how that relates to the importance of round count in your personal protection concealed carry home defense firearm here's a single shot shotgun and I've done a fair amount of hunting with a single shot and it is often adequate but often it's not there's been quite a few times where two birds have flown by and I shoot one and I could have easily shot the other if I'd had a shotgun that held more rounds but the second bird was long gone by the time I could reload my single shot it's happened to me that I have shot a rabbit and the noise of the shot scares out another rabbit and he was long gone by the time I could reload my single shot shotgun also as much as I hate to admit it's happened that I've missed and whatever I was shooting at I could have easily shot at again if I had more shots but it was long gone by the time I could reload my single shot shotgun now by contrast a double barreled shotgun if you do the math - is more than one has proven itself to be a great advantage there has been many times where I've got something the report scared out something else shot it where I've had multiple birds fly over me and I've shot multiple times the phenomena of shooting at something with a double-barreled shotgun and missing with the first shot but getting whatever I was shooting at with the second shot has happened to me more times than I could even begin to count so having one more shot is a tremendous advantage but when I go to a pump or auto loader where I have more than just two shots how often has it occurred but having a third shot has been an advantage over two and it most certainly has happened there have been times where it's taken me three shots to resolve whatever I was shooting at there's been many times where a lot more than two ducks have flown over me and having a third shot was a big advantage but if this represents the number of times we're having two shots has been an advantage over one then this would represent the number of times that having three shots has been an advantage over two but how many times has it occurred that I have been unable to solve a problem with three shots but I have solved it with the fourth or fifth that has happened to me exactly twice both while deer hunting on one occasion I had an auto loaded shotgun loaded with five rounds and I had it set up so that the first three shots would be buckshot and the last two would be slug the thought being if I didn't get what the deer with the first three shots he's probably running away so it'll be a longer shot well the deer jumps out of the bushes and ran 40-plus yards for me I started shooting at him with a shotgun and it wasn't that I was missing it's just that at that distance the pattern was big enough I wasn't hitting him with all of the pellets by the time the deer got to be about 50 yards away he'd really slowed down and he just came to a stop and he stood there looking at me and I remembered oh this is my fourth shot it's the slug and I fired hitting the deer killing it on another occasion while on an agricultural hunt where I was actually allowed shoot more than one dear I had a pump shotgun loaded with buckshot trying to close on the deer to get the closest shot I could about the time I get 35 yards away these deer start running I shoot it one three times and again it's not that I'm missing just not hitting it with the entire pattern on the third shot the deer goes down then I swing over to another running deer fire too bad that deer goes down so I got both deer down total of five shots now how many times does it happen to me that I have failed to resolve whatever it was I was trying to do with five shots but solve the situation with a sixth that has happened to me exactly zero times so the number of times that two has been an advantage over one the number of times that three has been an advantage over two the number of times that four or five has been an advantage over three and the number of times that six has been an advantage over five so we see that having more rounds in your shotgun is absolutely a plus but we see really diminishing returns so having a shotgun with six and it might be a great idea but having shot number seven eight-nine might be completely superfluous and the same kind of thing applies to round count in your concealed carry personal protection home defense handgun now let me get rid of these shotguns and see if I can explain how this relates to that so we see with our shotgun examples that having more rounds is absolutely better but we reach a point of diminishing returns and then we finally reach a point where your round count is such that those rounds will almost certainly be unnecessary and that same phenomenon occurs and your concealed carry personal protection home depends handgun so the question is where does your round count become almost certainly unnecessary well the answer that we have to ask the question how many rounds is someone typically fire in a citizen involved shooting well for the long version of the answer to that you can watch our presentation on gun fight statistics but the short version is that accurate statistics as far as how many rounds someone fires to successfully resolve a citizen involved shooting are almost impossible to get but from what I have seen and those few sources that I consider reliable I can say with a high degree of confidence that the great majority of citizen involved shootings are resolved successfully with six rounds or less usually less and when more than six are fired Browns eight ten and twelve are almost always unnecessary and sometimes legally highly questionable now when I say that there are still people who will say that high-capacity Auto loaders are better than revolvers and they will have several reasons to back that up and there are people who will say that revolvers are better and they'll have several reasons and it's not really about which one is better it's just about which one is better for you but confining our discussion specifically to round count there are people who will say that you should carry a high-capacity auto loader because even though six is sufficient most of the time you might find yourself in that rare case where you needed more and you should carry a high-capacity auto loader because there's no reason not to nobody ever complained about having too many rounds well actually there are several reasons not to and I'll discuss two of those in a few minutes but although I stand here and say that six rounds is going to be sufficient the great majority of the time there most certainly are times when I am of the opinion that a high-capacity auto loader is indicated now let me tell you a few anecdotes to illustrate my point and keep in mind I'm giving you the very short versions I was at my residence late one night when I heard a simultaneous frantic knocking on my door and frantic ringing of my doorbell obviously something was really wrong I go to the front door and I see a colleague of mine being chased by an assailant who was armed with a really big I mean really big wrench obviously a deadly weapon I pointed my pistol at the assailant who immediately stops backs up a few feet and then while distracted by me somebody else jumps him from behind were able to disarm him for police if I had been forced to fire in that situation I would have fired two rounds on another occasion and this does require a little bit more detailed version to make any sense I went to the dry cleaner to pick up my dry cleaning and this building is very typical of that type of business the front of the building is almost all big windows it's almost entirely glass well I go into the building hand my ticket to the lady behind the counter she goes off in the back to get my dry cleaning this I'm standing there waiting for I happened to look out the front of the building and I see a man walking down the street he looks very average and typical it's a public street middle of the day no reason to think anything is wrong but as he's walking down the street he suddenly stops gives me a terribly dirty look I hadn't said anything to him I was inside the building but he storms into the building now he didn't look like he was ready to fight he didn't produce a weapon but he walks up to me and I'll try to get the quote correct what he said was because you give me River moolah to which I replied oh really he then added God you did the groovey I couldn't see that it was any kind of foreign language couldn't pick a single word out of it it appeared to just be gibberish now while he's saying that of course I'm standing there with a hand in my pocket on my pistol pointing at him and about then the lady comes out of the back and she is completely at a loss to figure out what's going on here and I said to her I'll keep an eye on him while you call the police well this man could only speak gibberish but he understood the word police and that really disarmed him and he backed up and he thought about it for a second then he stormed out the building I don't know but had he been violent and had he produced a weapon and had I been forced to shoot I would have shot one or two rounds now on another occasion I was the passenger in a vehicle being driven by one of my colleagues we stopped he's going to go to the ATM now this is at night and there aren't any people around now when you get your money out of the ATM it is a matter of courtesy that whoever's next in line will stand several feet back well as my colleague is getting money out of the ATM some guy walks up and he walks up stands about less than a foot behind my colleague okay that doesn't look right so I get out of the car and I walk over there about six feet from both of them and I'm just standing there watching him and he looks around and he looks at me and decides that he doesn't want to do whatever it was he had planned and he leaves now had he gone through with whatever it was he thought he was going to do and had he put me in a position where I was forced to shoot I would have had to shoot probably two rounds things like this are very typical of citizen involved shootings and that's why citizen involved shootings are almost always resolved with six rounds or less however let me tell you another anecdote I was with a couple of colleagues out in the middle of nowhere I had a firearm on me their firearms are in a position where they weren't really accessible and again I'm telling you the very short version of this for the long version of it we have the presentation on it but here we were when approximately five assailants several hundred meters away went behind a train feature and then fired 15 or 20 rounds at us they then left now we ducked for cover we did not return fire and it turned out to be just about as close to nothing as something could be but what if they hadn't left what if instead of just harassing us or saying let's see if I can hit that guy from this distance they'd gone forward with some kind of real plan than in a situation like that having a high-capacity autoloader and maybe several magazines would have been a very good thing to have on another occasion I was again in the middle of nowhere where I was in no position to call for help when I was assailed by multiple assailants with obvious evil intent and they put me in a position where I was forced to shoot after shooting their leader the rest of them lost all interest in their criminal activity and fled so the situation was resolved with six rounds or less but what if they hadn't fled then I would have been put in a position where in the middle of nowhere unable to call for help dealing with multiple adversaries a high-capacity autoloader and maybe a few extra magazines would have been a very good thing to have now just last week I went deer hunting and I was hunting with a lever-action rifle the capacity five plus one and I had six extra rounds for a total of 12 rounds for my rifle which where I'm hunting is plenty but I was by myself in the middle of nowhere and in addition to my rifle I had this pistol with a 15 shot magazine in my holster and three extra 15 shot magazines on my belt because I was by myself in the middle of nowhere where there was no way I'm going to call for help so even though I stand here and say revolvers in terms of round count are going to be sufficient the great majority of the time I am of the opinion that there most certainly are occasions when a high-capacity autoloader is indicated now I mentioned that two times where high capacity auto loader can work against you one of those is if you're in a jurisdiction that has magazine restrictions there are some places where you're limited to a 10 shot magazine according to the sources I've seen there's some places we were limited to a seven shot magazine and if you happen to be in one of those places I would say carry a 10 shot magazine with confidence guns like this can be reloaded very quickly and 10 shots is going to be enough the great majority of the time also if you're in such a place I would advise against carrying an unauthorized magazine because your chances of getting into legal trouble because you have a prohibited magazine greatly outweigh your chances of needing that 11th round now the other occasion on which a high-capacity Audie loader can work against you is a little more complicated and I think it's best illustrated with the case of the late laQuan McDonald now have to preface this by first saying my sincere apologies if I'm pronouncing laQuan McDonald incorrectly secondly this is not the format to complain about the police there are other places that are the format for that this is not the Kuan McDonald was armed with a knife and fleeing the police and he was shot to death by a Chicago police officer now the events that led up to that are a matter of a lot of debate but because the shooting itself was caught on the dash cams of at least two police vehicles we have a pretty good handle on what happened in terms of the shooting now in doing research for today's presentation the only video I can currently find online is the one that was filmed by the police vehicle that was behind mr. McDonald the one that was filmed by the vehicle that was more or less in front of him I can't find that anymore if someone can please send a link to it and what happened was as mr. McDonald was walking down the middle of a big Street he was fired upon by a police officer that was some distance away and oblique to his direction travel that police officer claimed that he was in fear for his life and that McDonald had made a threatening gesture now I don't say this in jest but the threatening gesture that he made looked kind of like some kind of disco move he didn't even spin in the direction of the police officer that police officer then fired incapacitating mr. McDonald now that police officer as far as I could tell was armed with a Glock model 22 in cattle 40 Smith & Wesson with a capacity of 15 + 1 if anybody has a source that contradicts that please send a link to it it is not in debate how many rounds that police officer fired but what is a matter of some debate is how many rounds did he fire to incapacitate the suspect some will say that mr. McDonald went down with the first round some will say it was the second or third I'm going to interpret it as generously as I can and say that it took four rounds to actually put the suspect down after mr. McDonald was on the ground incapacitated virtually motionless that police officer continued to fire at him while he was on the ground exhausting the capacity of his 15 plus one auto loader he shot a total of 16 rounds at least 12 of which were at someone who was immobile on the ground the net result of that was that that police officer of convicted of second-degree murder and sentenced to 81 months in prison that's just short of seven years I'm confident that the jury took many things into account in their deliberations such as mr. McDonough is not travelling toward the police officer he was some distance away there's a debate whether his disco spin was really a threatening gesture but one thing we can really take from this in our discussion on the round count is that had that police officer been armed with a six-shot revolver that still would have been plenty to incapacitate the suspect even if you believe the shooting was justified I know that's a big if but even if it was and I would think that the jury would be more forgiving of if it took four rounds to incapacitate him and extra two rounds of panic fire at a suspect on the ground would be more forgivable than at least 12 rounds fired at someone who is helpless on the ground and so what we can take away from that in terms of round count is that if you are terribly untrained and prone to panic and cannot conduct yourself with anything that resembles fire discipline then arming yourself with a handgun is probably a bad idea and arming yourself with a high-capacity autoloading handgun is most certainly contry in so if you've watched this entire presentation thank you for your attention and as always don't try this at home and what you call the professional and thank you for watching the double action revolvers for concealed carry personal protection home defense video [Music]

Channel: Paul Harrell

Views: 433,354

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Id: 359SrEKpT14

Length: 38min 29sec (2309 seconds)

Published: Fri Oct 18 2019