>>> WE WILL HAVE A RECONCILIATION BILL. THAT IS FOR SURE. >> IT IS NOT SOME MAJOR CATACLISM IF THERE ISN'T A VOTE TODAY. MARK MY WORDS, THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL WILL BE PASSED AND A VERSION OF THE RECONCILIATION BILL WILL BE AS WELL. >> WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO VOTE FOR THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL UNTIL THE RECONCILIATION BILL HAS PASSED. SO WE'RE IN THE SAME PLACE. >> SHAME FOR THAT. NO TWO BILLS SHOULD EVER BE LINKED TOGETHER. >> Bret: SENATOR JOE MANCHIN THERE. AT THIS HOUR WE ARE TOLD THE HOUSE WILL NOT HAVE ANY VOTES BEFORE 9 P.M. WE DON'T KNOW THE STATUS OF WHETHER THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL IS COMING UP. WHETHER THERE'S A DEAL ON THE RECONCILIATION BILL. WE DO KNOW THIS. JOE MANCHIN LAID DOWN A MARKER TODAY. PEOPLE TOOK NOTE SAYING JOE MANCHIN DELIVERS A DAGGER TO THE HEART OF THE PROGRESSIVE CAUSE. THEY CAN HUFF AND PUFF IF THEY WANT BUT WON'T BLOW DOWN THE WEST VIRGINIA'S HOUSE. RE-ENGINEERING THE FABRIC OF AMERICAN LIFE A MODERN PROGRESSISM'S FULL POINT. CRISIS DEMAND IMMEDIATELY AND WIDE RANGING ACTION NOT INCREMENTAL CHANGE OR TINKERING AROUND THE EDGES. THEIR AMBITIONS CAN ONLY PREVAIL IN A DEMOCRACY IF THEY ARE SUPPORTED BY PUBLIC OPINION. THAT'S WHERE WE ARE AT THIS HOUR. LET'S BRING IN OUR PANEL. PUBLISHER OF FEDERALIST, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT OF NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO AND TREY GOWDY, FORMER CONGRESSMAN FROM SOUTH CAROLINA. WE DON'T KNOW WHERE THIS IS GOING. WE DO KNOW THAT IT'S GOING TO BE LESS THAN $3.5 TRILLION AND THE RECONCILIATION BILL, IF IT HAPPENS. >> YES. IT'S DEFINITELY GOING TO BE LESS. WE'VE KNOWN THAT FOR QUITE SOMETIME. WE DIDN'T KNOW THE ACTUAL PARAMETERS OF THE NEGOTIATION. I THINK THE BIG PROGRESS THAT WAS MADE TODAY IS THAT JOE MANCHIN SAID IN PUBLIC BEFORE A CAMERA WHAT HE'S BEEN SAYING IN PRIVATE AND ACTUALLY ON PAPER IN THIS MEMO THAT HE AND CHUCK SHUMER SIGNED, THAT HIS NUMBER, TOP LINE NUMBER IS $1.5 TRILLION. HE HAS SOME OTHER SUBSTANTIVE DEMANDS. SPECIAL SAFETY NET PROGRAMS TO BE TESTED. HE WANTS TO ROLL BACK THE TRUMP TACK CUTS INCLUDING CARRIED INTEREST. HE HAS A WHOLE LOT OF THINGS THAT HE CARES ABOUT. NOW, HE DID NOT SAY THAT THIS WAS A HARD AND FAST NUMBER AND HE WASN'T FLEXIBLE AT ALL. HE SAID, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO NEGOTIATE. SO, SOMEWHERE BETWEEN $3.5 TRILLION AND $1.5 TRILLION IS WHERE THEY'LL END UP, IF THEY CAN GET A DEAL AMONG THEMSELVES. >> Bret: THAT'S A BIG IF, TREY. SAYING WE'RE GOING TO VOTE AGAINST THIS INFRASTRUCTURE BILL IF WE DON'T HAVE A DEAL, A VOTE ON RECONCILIATION. >> YEAH, BRET. I GIVE CREDIT TO THE PROGRESSIVES IN THE HOUSE. THEY WATCHED VERY CAREFULLY AS THE FREEDOM CAUCUS ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE PROVED YOU CAN GET A LOT MORE FAMOUS OPPOSING YOUR OWN LEADERSHIP INSTEAD FIGHTING WITH THE OTHER SIDE. FAME HAS BECOME THE ULTIMATE POLITICAL VIRTUE. I WILL SAY THIS. JEN PSAKI USED THE WORD DEMOCRACY. LET'S LAY ASIDE THE FACT THAT THEY TRIED TO RAM IT THROUGH WITH A PARLIAMENTARIAN AND GIVE IT ALL IN ONE BILL. YOU AND I WON THE SAME NUMBER OF COUNTIES IN WEST VIRGINIA THAT JOE BIDEN DID. ARIZONA WAS LESS THAN ONE HALF OF A PERCENTAGE POINT. SO DON'T BE LECTURING JOE MANCHIN ABOUT DEMOCRACY. >> Reporter: JEN PSAKI WAS ASKED ABOUT THE WHITE HOUSE LOSING ALL CONTROL OF THIS. >> THIS IS HOW DEMOCRACY WORKS. I KNOW IT FEELS FOREIGN BECAUSE THERE WASSEN MUCH THAT HAPPENED OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS. BUT HOW IT WORKS IS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ELECT THEIR ELECTED OFFICIALS, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, PUTS FORWARD A BOLD AND AMBITIOUS PROPOSAL AND EVERYBODY NEGOTIATES ABOUT IT. THEY HAVE DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW. THAT'S HOW DEMOCRACY SHOULD WORK. WE'RE IN THE MIDST OF IT. WE'RE NOT TRYING TO PAINT OVER HOW MESSY IT LOOKS FROM THE OUTSIDE. WE KNOW THAT. >> Bret: BEN? >> WELL, WE'RE NOT ACTUALLY A DEMOCRACY, JUST TO POINT THAT OUT. IF WE WERE, THEN WE WOULD BE FINE WITH MAJORITIES RUNNING TOWARD ALL THESE TYPES OF EXTREME STEPS, EVEN IF THEY WERE SLIMMEST OF MAJORITIES. THERE'S AN IMPORTANT REASON AND THE FOUNDERS REALLY BELIEVED IN IT, THAT WE ARE NOT THAT WAY AND OUR GOVERNMENT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. THAT'S WHY JOE MANCHIN IS SO IMPORTANT IN THIS MOMENT. LOOK, HE READS THE POLITICS VERY WELL. NOT JUST IN HIS OWN STATE, BUT I THINK IN THE BROADER DYNAMIC. I THINK IN THIS MOMENT THERE OUGHT TO BE A LOT OF CRITIQUES OF THE APPROACH THAT NANCY PELOSI USED. AT THE END OF THE DAY, SHE MAY HAVE MISSED AN OPPORTUNITY TO ACHIEVE A PACKAGE THAT COULD BE MUCH MORE PERHAPS THAN WHAT MANCHIN'S NUMBER WOULD BE, BUT FAR LESS THAN WHAT PROGRESSIVES ARE CURRENTLY DEMANDING. TAKING THE STEP THAT SHE DID, IN TERMS OF LINKING THESE MEASURES TOGETHER IN THE WAY THAT HE DID -- >> Bret: WE ALWAYS KNEW SENATOR MANCHIN WAS GOING TO BE CRUCIAL. WE TALKED TO HIM ON THIS SHOW MANY TIMES AND ASKED HIM SPECIFIC QUESTIONS. TODAY, MARA, YOU'RE RIGHT. $1.5 TRILLION TOP LINE THAT HE TALKED ABOUT. TAKE A LISTEN TO THIS AND REACTION ON THE PROGRESSIVE SIDE. >> ELECT MORE LIBERALS. I'M NOT ASKING THEM TO CHANGE. I'M WILLING TO COME FROM ZERO UP. >> I BELIEVE IN MY HEART THAT WHAT WE CAN DO AND WHAT WE NEED TO ADDRESS RIGHT NOW WITHOUT BASICALLY CHANGING OUR WHOLE SOCIETY TO AN ENTITLEMENT MENTALITY. >> WHICH SENATOR ARE WE NEGOTIATING WITH? IS IT JUNE MANCHIN, SEPTEMBER MANCHIN, AUGUST MANCHIN? WILL DECEMBER MANCHIN BE DIFFERENT? >> IT'S ACTUALLY JULY 28TH MANCHIN. THAT'S THE DATE OF THE MEMO. >> Bret: THAT'S RIGHT. >> IT HASN'T CHANGED SINCE THEN. LOOK. WHAT HE SAID WAS BASIC FACTS. THE REASON DEMOCRATS ARE IN THIS FIX IS BECAUSE THEY HAVE A GIGANTIC AGENDA AND MINISCULE MAJORITY. THEY FAILED TO WIN THE SEATS THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE GOING TO WIN IN 2020. AS JOE MANCHIN SAID TODAY, I HAVE NEVER BEEN A LIBERAL. HE'S REPRESENTING A STATE THAT TRUMP WON BY, WHAT, 29 POINTS? LIKE THAT SONG IN HAMILTON, THEY DON'T HAVE THE VOTES AND THEY'RE GONNA HAVE TO COMPROMISE. THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS. >> Reporter: TREY, YOU'VE SEEN THIS PLAY BEFORE. SPEAKER PELOSI HAS PULLED RABBITS OUT OF HATS LEGISLATIVELY BEFORE. WE DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN TONIGHT. DO YOU THINK SHE COULD COBBLE THIS TOGETHER? >> IT DEPEND. IT DEPENDS ON HOW MANY REPUBLICAN SENATORS CONTINUE TO CALL REPUBLICAN MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE AND ASK THEM TO VOTE FOR THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL. KEVIN MCCARTHY HAS A JOB TO DO HERE, TOO, WHICH IS SKAOEP THE REPUBLICANS COALESCED. I LOVE AOC'S POLITICAL STRATEGY WHICH IS INSULT THE PERSON WHOSE VOTE YOU NEED. I JUST DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO WORK. >> Bret: LET'S TAKE YOU TO THE FLIP SIDE. WHAT ABOUT THOSE MODERATE REPUBLICANS WHO LOOK AT THE $1.2 TRILLION INFRASTRUCTURE BILL AND SAY, THIS IS A CHANCE TO FINALLY BUILD THAT BRIDGE, TO FINALLY FIX THAT ROAD THAT I HAVE BEEN TALK ABOUT FIXING TO MY CONSTITUENTS FOREVER. MAYBE I SHOULD VOTE FOR IT. IS THE POLITICS OF THE MOMENT MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE BRIDGE AT HOME? >> I THINK THAT'S THE BIG QUESTION, BUT HEADED INTO A MIDTERM YEAR, DELIVERY OF THAT BRIDGE IS GOING TO BECOME LESS AND LESS OF THEIR PRIORITY. ONE MORE NOTE ON THIS. THE KIND OF JABS THAT WE'VE SEEN NOT JUST AT JOE MANCHIN BUT TODAY FROM SOME PROGRESSIVES HAS BECOME MORE AND MORE AGGRESSIVE. THE IDEA SAID BY ONE MEMBER TODAY THAT SHE HASN'T SHOWN US ANYTHING BUT A DESIGNER PURSE. THAT'S NOT THE KIND OF INSULT THAT'S GOING TO GO ACROSS WITH SOMEONE NAVIGATING A SITUATION AND WHO LAST I CHECKED HAS 40% POPULARITY AMONG REPUBLICANS IN ARIZONA. >> Bret: AND EITHER ONE OF THEM COULD BECOME
