Pastor vs. Moral Nihilist

well I appreciate that so when you say Lutheran and you thought it meant to be a Christian event and try to be a good person do you know that that's not what the gospel teaches about how a person is a Christian well like I said there's different ways I think there are is possible to interpret the gospel different ways for each person so you don't think God has the ability to speak clearly enough to get across a point to do that but I think so am I open to interpret your words in whatever way please like if I just if someone said hey where did he say to you sorry I'm Jeff by the way what's your name I'm drunk if Josh if somebody said hey what did Josh say to you just now and I said Josh just told me he's an alien and he's just visiting that's my interpretation would I be able to do that would you want me to do that no well there are different ways to interpret how you should live to Christ while the words might be like concrete then they just give you the guidelines how to live through Christ in different ways what if Jesus says unless you believe I am which is the name of the eternal God you'll die in your sins that's what he said do you believe them what if Jesus said there's there's a hell yeah that's that's what I've always interpreted how as being a tree simply talking about that like it's a bad place however I do not think in all of the all-powerful God would ever send someone to hell what what Jesus actually says if your sin cause if you if something causes you to sin your eye causes you to sin pluck it out throw it from you cut off your hand throw from you for its better view and tend to your life maimed than to spend essentially eternity in everlasting torment so he believed in eternal life and eternal torment do you disagree with him God is doing that to people so you don't believe God is just not really if he's condemning someone to eternal Oh Arnold torture forgive me I said what I mean is you believe that God is love but you don't believe that he is just that he but that he is he's just or a just God or is angry with sin you don't believe that I don't think sentencing someone to eternity like for all the time to torture can be just okay so you don't really what would you say in terms of what the Bible says about God's holiness that he is holy and we are sinners do you think our sin is a big deal to God however I still cannot separate that from his all-powerful life like love is the most powerful thing in this entire world and God's love if if I was a Christian I'm not anymore but I would interpret that as being greater than all the forces on this planet hate no matter what justice it Trump's everything God who says you you you now rejects I thank you for talking to me but you reject scripture now you reject God's revelation you reject the message of Jesus on what basis is love anything more than some kind of indigestion or excitable feeling well but you don't believe scripture anymore so what for now now that you've rejected God what what makes what gives you the right to tell me love matters at all oh okay Josh so what you're saying is that there's chemical processes happening in the brain so human beings who are the results of evolutionary processes that didn't have us in mind to get here have chemicals going off in their brain and those chemicals have some meaning so fit so chemical fizz happening neurological responses have some objective basis to them some more moral basis to them I think they have some basis how about the chemical feelings that science can demonstrate through neurological responses that lead a person to rape and mutilate a child what's wrong with those chemical responses why are you picking one chemical response over another what do you mean why am i picking one chemical response well there's chemical response is happening neurologically that lead the man to rape murder and dismembered the child there's chemical responses happening there you're saying that the chemical physics of love is the most important fizz there is but I'm saying that the fizz that happen to murder and mutilate the child is also neurological fizz you say this fizz is better why why is love better than X Y is the neurological response leading to feelings of love better than the feelings that led to dismembering a child remember you rejected Scripture you don't believe we're specially made created by God you're not a Christian so I would assume that means that now you've abandoned that worldview and now you're accepting naturalistic a naturalistic materialist view of reality which means that you and I are just random results of evolutionary processes your ancestors were bacteria yeah and you're saying that that this feeling coming from fizz is important yeah I think well all feelings are important because then they're put into action in the real world that's the actual value so what is the feeling that led to rape how about that one I think that's a bad feeling who says we as society but also personally we all have the capacity to feel suffering and stuff and because that action causes sufferings that actually is wrong so do you eat to eat do eat animals you don't eat animals no I think it's wrong okay so so you have decided that it's it's wrong to kill what what's what is wrong to kill and hurt stuff that has the complex capacity to actually feel pain and suffering that makes so it so in the inflicting of harm is wrong yes it's always wrong yeah oh gosh the boredom so what if a man raped and mutilated should we inflict harm on him I think there should be some sort of penalty for that what should the penalty for it well first off I don't I believe in restorative justice I don't believe in the prison system because I think it only creates more you and I on the same page with that we can I think we can strive to be better as humans than that so I would seek some sort of a sure justice route I'm not sure how that would look like so you have no answer for a terms of justice what that would look like well do you know are sort of justices yeah I know in a minute yes I know what it is well then you know my answer well when you say restorative justice you believe that ultimately you can inflict some harm on somebody you can you can essentially have something happen to them that leads to restoration some justice is enforced to lead to restoration of the human being right yeah but you don't have an answer in terms of where are you getting these categories you're talking like a Christian right right you can't abandon it yeah seeing a mediation between you and the party you have permed coming like talking to them letting them know powers and what about what about what about the the man who raped and murdered several women and buried their bodies underground he can't he can't reconcile with them then he reconciled with the community so he reconcile so there's no justice in terms of the victims perhaps what I would say is this what I would say is this God has spoken to the issue of justice and he says that if you kill another image-bearer of God unjustly you deserve to die I say kill the rapist kill the murderer because that's justice objective justice that's outside of myself and here's the thing Josh it's true whether I like it or not is true whether I feel it or not it's God's own character and justice on display but you believe now that you've evolved from lower bacterial forms in a universe that didn't have you in minds and you evolved to get to this place through random mutations so you're not any difference than the dirt the tree the stool the atoms that form those things and molecules that form those things together you're not different from them why do you think you are because I have the capacity to feel so if something feels it has value the capacity to suffer is why we should not cause that's what I'm going back to yeah I think that is what gives a lot of value or at least gives us and animals some amounts of value is that they have the capacity suffer we all know because we can experience suffering that is a hurtful thing to feel so therefore it is wrong to cause suffering the things I can feel there's a lot of people that like to cause suffering what's your argument with them they're random results of evolution just like you what makes you think you can tell them what to do they like it it makes them feel good like who you talking about Hitler Pol Pot Mao Stalin they liked it I think there's a lot of factors that contribute to people getting to that point in their life but they like it there there are other random results of evolutionary process remember you've abandoned Jesus now you don't have image of God you don't have ultimate value Beauty meaning purpose you have random mutations now just spread out across the universe and they're all fizzing different chemical responses you don't like to inflict pain and I appreciate that I think that's cuz you're in the image of God you know but they liked it they make them it made them feel good and there's lots of people behind bars right now that like to inflict pain what's your argument with them I just said before there's a lot of factors that contribute to them getting to that point preach the good news preach the good news to the rapist get what I mean preach the good news of your worldview to the rapist preach the good news to Hitler remember you don't have Jesus anymore so there's no ultimate purpose value or meaning you're a cosmic accident preach the good news of atheism to him okay well like I'm saying there are factors that contribute to them games that point you address those factors versus what's wrong with the factors inequality in life what racism wait wait you're acting like a Christian now you're acting like those are image bearers of God and then we're all the same like racism I at racism as a wicked abomination but that's a Christian worldview right we're all we all come from the same parents in the Christian worldview in your world view it's random mutations why are you telling this is not a real construct at all in my worldview or in any actual worldview that's smart race is a social but what I'm saying is is that you're saying that we should all be seen as equals but there are there are tribes of white people and black people and yellow people that think that their colour tribe is more valuable than the other so preach the good news to them tell them how we're all the same okay no I'm asking you to tell me your position well I would go to why they think that there are so different from each other and they say our tribe is more important than yours we want to kill you and eat you happens today still has their position yes is they let's say this they say they come for a bit of a different perspective than you they weren't raised in a Christian background they were raised say in a jungle where it was survival of the fittest my tribe needs to overcome years through might might for right I would leave those people alone to let them do their but what makes their morality different than yours are better than yours or worse than yours I think it's objective yes okay so help me with see that I'm amoral nihilist okay hold on no you said two opposing things you said all morality is objective that means it's true outside of me right for it's true anyways open to interpret or whatever they want but you said moral nihilism nihilism is the idea that there is no ultimate meaning or purpose or morality morality is its objective and there isn't really any purpose at all to morality if it's just I think you means subjective yeah objective means it's true anyways subjective is it's your field yeah I believe in morally subjectivity in like morals don't really say you don't have an argument with because we make them you said free Palestine on your shirt yes but morality is subjective so why wear the shirt because from my moral perspective the occupation by Israel in Palestine is it wrong to oppress other bags of protoplasm yes says who Josh yes I don't care what Josh says I'm another bag of protoplasm i fizz differently than you well that's unfortunate sorry you heard that do you see how your your position has no moral punch to it because it's subjective it's your feelings that you're emotional yes go back to the point of but like I said I'm a moral nihilist so I know that so so why are you standing here because you're not a moral nihilist you're made in the image of God Josh you know the truth you know Jesus is who he says he is you know his word is true you've abandoned him and now you live in this world of just mishmash chaos you've got a wish but by the way Josh I believe you I by the way I you said something that really resonated with me you said the prison system you think is unjust I believe that putting image bearers of God behind cages is unjust but see I have a basis as a Christian to believe that because I have an objective standard you just said there is no morality that matters so what's the justification of walking someone up when there is no justification in this world I don't agree with it I think it's wicked I think taking image bearers of God and putting him into a cage is wicked I believe in God's law that says if somebody steals they had to pay it back of somebody murders and rapes they die well remember that you're a moral nihilist there is no standards at all you've given them all up so your disagreement is a moot point right it doesn't matter not really I just think that there are some things that that you can never fully detach yourself once you have that moral view in your life at one point you can never fully detach yourself from completely believing but that's your position Josh that's your position you said that there is no meaning yeah there isn't so why are you standing here because you know it's not true Josh Josh I love you and you know that what you're saying makes no sense I'm not trying to get one over on you I care about you we just met but you're in the image of God you know the story of Jesus by the way I want to say this this is so important Josh when you I said what does it mean to be a Christian I wasn't trying to get you in a corner and trap you I was trying to say did he even understand what it meant and when you said try to be a good person it sounds like you were a product and I don't mean that offensively of a cultural idea of Christianity but what you had was not the gospel she the Bible doesn't teach that I'm saved or right with God through my good deeds my works my obedience it's solely through what Christ did to save me I turned to him in faith and he James me he acquits me he gives me salvation and eternal life as a gift Josh he never knew I don't mean that to offend you I mean that I want you to know and I want you to think about something by the way the free Palestine I understand what you're saying I understand that you're you have moral feelings of moral indignation over one group of people oppressing another that's what you feel but Josh you when you abandon Jesus you gave that up [Music] Josh but human reasoning will no mask it this way just take this as a very loving Pro okay when you say human reasoning laws of logic what are they in atheism what are they Josh nothing really they're just stuff we make up do you just see it Josh please tell me you saw that please think about what you just said you said when I asked you about like morality and everybody said she's human reasoning and then when I said to you but what are laws of logic and you said yeah we just make it up do you see the circle you've got yourself in yes but you cannot detach yourself from that circle when you've already entered it in the first place because come a little bit born you were told there is some sort of morality in this world it isn't really true but you have that view from over here you wearing the shirt because as injury will detach myself from that view that it isn't true how about this I'll wear a shirt that says enslave Palestine now I don't agree with that but your position you just said is that there's no real distinction between the two doesn't really matter it's late Palestine free Palestine you know god Josh you know him you do you know him you turned away from them and now you've grabbed a hold of stuff that's not going to help you it's not helping you Josh I believe that deep down you know the gun that I'm talking about you you feel this passionate about this issue of free Palestine because you're in the image of God and you know that it's wrong to oppress other image bearers of God you haven't been able to shake your Christianity loose completely but you but you never knew Christ truly to begin with and that's why we're here today it's not to win debates it's not to fight with you is to tell you this listen the message of Jesus isn't what you thought Josh it wasn't about you somehow knowing about this guy named Jesus who did these things and you got to be a better person to climb your way to him it's that he came to save sinners we he is holy and you said something in the beginning Josh I just wanted to just say this last thing I don't want to dominate the conversation but you said the idea of hell I can't I can't accept the idea of eternal punishment but they think about two things one is you already gave up moral judgments you said it doesn't matter so there is nothing wrong with someone spending eternity planet punished because there is no moral judgments yeah just yeah exactly so subjective - here's the thing here's anything you're missing you never caught the idea that God is not just love he is I think better than you think he is but he's also just and he's holy and we're sinners and we've offended him and we hate him we run away from him we construct these complicated worldviews that are just a mess and we don't want him the knowledge of God and so that we don't know how holy God is so when we hear of his eternal punishment we think that seems excessive but that just shows that we don't understand his holiness in the gravity of our sin and that's what you need to know the message of Jesus is about the love and justice of God he satisfies what we deserve for our sins and he gives us a righteousness that we don't deserve and it's a gift Josh the call the gospel is to turn from your sin to trust in him to be saved now I don't want you to think Josh that it was about climbing to Jesus for salvation that wasn't it but Josh I want you to I want you to know and I believe from the moment you walked up here you you you came up I so appreciated that you did man because you came up and you actually acted like something matters in this world and I respect that but I just want you to consider this you've grabbed a hold of a position now where nothing does matter but you didn't act like that and you're not acting like it Josh with this t-shirt you can no price Josh can I give you my number okay well I'm Jeff nice nice to meet you you'll see hail Satan

Channel: Apologia Studios

Views: 108,055

Rating: 4.8577929 out of 5

Keywords:

Id: UciOzJFTjc8

Length: 19min 26sec (1166 seconds)

Published: Wed Nov 13 2019

Reddit Comments

[u/kswanman15]

Hail satan