Our Commander Nightmares | EDHRECast 235

[Music] thank you hello and welcome to the EDH repcast my name is Joey Schultz and today I am joined by my fantastic co-host hey uh he heard that there's now a legendary creature called Inquisitor grayfax and he just doesn't understand why someone would use a fax in the year 2022 that is so 1989 to use a fax it's Matt Morgan so Joey I hear that if you need a job you could always try joining search and rescue teams because they're always out looking for people for employment not not there hopefully they're not always looking for bodies oh okay we're going oh we're going there we go you you made a fax machine joke like adults and rescue's trying to find the punch line for that joke too so I I appreciate that you were trying to appeal to my uh loves to play reanimator nature that was a a fun a fun way to start it off there man there we go we're all on the same page yes and uh we are not joined By Dana roach today he will be off for this episode but that's okay because Matt and I have a fun episode uh for y'all Matt what is it that we're actually talking about in this week's episode well we're going to talk about our worst fears and not to the card worst fears although it is quite the banger but we're going to talk about our actual maybe like nightmare scenarios maybe better described where we just times that might come up in a commander game that just we don't look forward to we maybe hopefully try to avoid altogether yeah these things that keep us up at night we wake up in a cool old sweat these things that we absolutely they are terrifying they haunt us will these things occur in a commander game it is Halloween is coming up if inspiration for it so yeah let's totally get into it it should be a whole bunch of fun but real quick before we get into that episode we've got some quick shout outs to do first we've got to thank Chase AKA Mana curves for helping us with the post-production of the show Chase thank you ever so you can find them online at Mana curves absolutely the best so definitely check them out thank you so much Jace and if you would like to support the show you can do so by liking subscribing clicking all the thumbs up buttons on YouTube your local podcast app whatever it is that you do it's just a great way to support the show Absolutely for free but also if you would like to support us on patreon you can do so over at patreon.com edhretcast we have Patron tears of all sorts of levels so whatever you're looking to get it's just a nice way to get something back for supporting us on patreon whether you want to join our Discord Community you want to see all the challenges stats that we've done over the years there's all of that and more over at patreon.com edhretcast and true to form we're going to give that Weekly shout out to one of those patrons who went over to patreon to support us so this week thank you so much to Leo sodergrin thank you man I I don't have any good jokes on soda grin I'm just that's such a great fun name to say to sodergan reminds me a bit of Soderberg like of uh Ocean's 11 Fame the director there like that's it oh yes that's a good name um although for the record sometimes Matt I I know that this is a difficult conversation to have with you especially right now while we're recording the podcast but sometimes it's okay if you don't have a dad joke for every single occasion such as our patreon shout outs I I don't that doesn't make any sense it does not compete with you it does not compute I I don't understand what you're saying here okay okay let's talk about uh places where we're better acquainted such as magic let's talk about some Commander stuff instead so yeah we are we are talking about our our commander worst fears some of the things that like might come up in game or not even potentially in game but like sometimes around the game or uh just related to magic that kind of give us a little bit of the oh no the the dread the cold sweats at night um and Pat you know how about you go ahead and kick it off for us what is an occasion that might come up in a commander game that gives you your worst Commander nightmares well I suppose we'll start it off pretty light here and just I hate maybe not hate I don't look forward to when somebody has that Silver Bullet card that card that it's the exact answer exactly when you need it uh it's always you you build up that's been that entire game trying to get to a certain point where you can position yourself to win and then oh no they had the perfect answer right when they needed it uh like they drew into it at instant speed and response there's everybody has one of those fun stories but also when you just it's oh we're so close you're so close yeah so so like that is the thing that makes this one like I think I feel like everything that we talk about in this episode will actually be pretty tricky because there are occasions where on the one hand holy crap that's so epic like I have been the person who rejoices when someone gets the silver bullet and totally demolishes oh yeah but I've also been the person who's like nah whenever someone finds a civil bullet and totally demolishes me like you and Dana have mentioned graveyard hate all the time and we all know that graveyard hate is a thing that gives me plenty of Commander anxiety because my lovely necromancy decks cannot really survive a bujukabag and a rest in peace and you know I don't even fear like just the scavenger grounds the other thing that I fear on top of it is like when the person with the scavenger grounds doesn't just have scavenger grounds they also have an additional desert that scavenger grounds can also sacrifice to get the scavenger grounds effect twice because you can just sacrifice a desert not necessarily the grounds itself so like that's the stuff that makes me like absolutely dread and like like again it's it's nuanced because like when I'm doing all my graveyard Shenanigans I do deserve to be taken down a peg because it's way too like like you can't let me do my graveyard stuff but I still I absolutely I get the cold sweats when someone's just like oh is this a lay line of the Void in my opening hand how novel how intriguing yeah it's always fun to have those moments where uh kind of like the meme it's like oh somebody call an ambulance but not for me like those types of build-ups though you always get the best stories from there yes it does Sting to be on the receiving end of them but ultimately like you you do it for the stories that's why we play Commander it's to to have those experiences to to do those things so yes it stings a little bit when you're under the receiving end of the perfectly timed brainstorming to settle the wreckage or whatever it ends up being but also it's it's fun like you you remember those games that like everybody was you know hanging on the the Cliffhanger type of moments and then it resolved so yeah it's always fun you know you never remember not having it but you always remember having the answer yes yeah and it's especially fun when like sometimes those answers compound upon each other like I have absolutely seen someone play an ink Shield uh which you know stops all the commander damage gives you a bunch of inklings in return and then they attacked they did a crack back attack with all of those inklings that they just got and then that person responded with an arachnogenesis so like all of the inklings then produced a bunch of spiders and then that person like cracked back with all of the spiders now that the inklings were all tapped and then a selfless Squire came down and it's just like sometimes those silver bullets like Cascade into even more silver bullets and that's when the game gets just so absolutely ludicrous that like I Circle right back around from like oh no I'm dreading this too okay this is the best thing I've ever seen in my life um but I do think that there's probably a case to be made that like sometimes the Civil War bullets are so good that they do really take you out of the game almost completely like a rest in peace is going to be a lot harder for me to get out from underneath than a one-time Paducah bog or like a spike weaver or a constant Mists being a Perpetual fog that it feels like you can't get through or Spore frog constantly coming back that one can actually be like genuinely a little bit like grinds my teeth a little bit because that doesn't feel as epic that feels a little bit more like I've lost agency in this game I can't actually do anything to this person now and that feels a little bit like a shade darker and instead of a shade more epic does that track with you well well yeah Joey and I think you put it really well that people lose their agency and that probably tiptoes around future points we're going to talk about later on this episode but having the one time answer is very very different from a continuous pressure applying it's something that kind of weighs down and takes the air out of the room type of answer very very different things so yes the one time oh I got your moment is completely different from oh I'm gonna answer your entire entire game and so yeah the the one-time Silver Bullet time type of cards I love it they lead to amazing stories but yes cards that make people lose their agency over what they could be doing in the game probably even worse well that's one of the things like for instance uh you specifically don't like dictative Erebus uh or other types of like Perpetual sacrifice stuff because you have a lot of decks where you might have like just a single commander in play like your valve deck for example and if all I'm able to do is just sacrifice a single creature and you just don't get to have your commander around anymore for like basically the first foreseeable like rest of the game yeah that do sting that does kind of suck and in plenty of play groups that isn't necessarily a problem but that is the thing that I as an opponent want to make sure that I am aware of when I'm playing games against you like I had plenty of sacrifice stuff in my decks but one of my family's favorite types of decks to play is Voltron and I was like oh I want to have fun with my family I don't want them to feel like they can't get out from underneath these sacrifice effects so I'm not going to play these in this deck or I'm not going to play the deck against them I'll play something different so like that is a way to navigate through those things because sometimes like the cool epic answer that you got does turn into something a little bit more nightmarish yeah absolutely it and this is probably something that just gets measured out and your pre-game conversations what are we trying to do how how hard are we trying to to beat each other up and yeah if that's not solved then yeah it's something you probably need to get figured out for your next before your next game night so yeah we'll do a joy so how about you what what is something that that keeps you up at night in cold sweats well I think that like you know that was a fun uh intro to the idea but like yeah sort of piggybacking off of that same thing I think that this could be a way that we talk about something deeper specifically you just mentioned pre-game conversations and I think that's going to be like a running theme throughout this specific episode is like the importance of those pregame conversations specifically because genuinely one of the things that actually does like not prey on me and they're like I don't know it scares me kind of way but like in the genuinely like okay I really don't want this to happen kind of way is when one person just doesn't get to participate much in the game at all like Matt you and I have definitely experienced this uh when we are streaming twitch.tv edhretcast it is so much fun and specifically nice plug nice plug thank you thank you I'm getting I learned I learned it from watching you uh the uh the experience that sometimes we worry about like when we're getting everything together is we're gonna have an awesome guest on whether we're having Ashlyn rose on or lady danger or if we're having uh the folks from one more mana on like we just love having guests on to the stream but we do have an anxiety where like what if someone gets a bad draw and then you know we're playing a game in front of a whole bunch of people and that person just gets stuck manuscript or their deck just doesn't ever really come together they don't get to do a whole lot yeah are they going to not enjoy their time not only like you know in the game but are they gonna like walk away and feel bad about having spent that hour with us we don't want them to have that and we don't want the audience to feel bad having watched it either and just feel sorry for a person so like and you know that also goes for us too like we also get manuscript we just want to make sure that there's like an even game for everyone but like when one person doesn't get to participate a whole lot ah man it hurts well not even just exclusive to our streams but just in regular games with with people I remember there were a couple games uh we went to command Fest Richmond several months ago I sat down for a game and there was one person they Drew Drew an opening hand didn't look so good so they drew no opening hand again they're like and you know they visibly were kind of like uh gosh dang it and so then they drew they drew six they said well the six is even good most of the time if you have a pre-existing play group you can probably encourage people to to play however you want but at in this situation the other three people at the table were just kind of like you know just just draw again draw a good seven just just get a good good opening hand that's kind of encouraging that's probably one of my favorite rules that Commander players have quote ignored um we still follow it sort of but the the opening hand is probably the worst way and worst reason for people not getting to play if you're playing in a more powerful tight-knit decks then yes I I totally understand that the Mulligan rule is a huge part of encouraging proper deck building but if you're just playing casually just to play you're meeting new people you just want to have fun man oh just just encourage people to just find a good sub and that that's one piece of advice I would have for people there's even I sometimes notice on streams because I lurk a lot on streams like I really like I like watching my friends play Magic um and I totally notice that if someone's getting manuscript a lot of streams also have like a just okay it's been three turns since you had a land drop just go free cultivate you get a free cultivate like you get a free go find some lands because we yeah we want to play this game with you like that is why if we're all here we want to be glad that we spent our time with each other and that we spent our time playing this specific game and so that is definitely uh uh you know the Manus Guru is one of the biggest ways that that can uh now that can come up as if like someone just doesn't happen to get the resources that they need but it does come up in other ways too such as you know the examples that we've mentioned earlier where like if one person's strategy is so overwhelming that it completely eclipses another person's ability to do something that actually does factor into my threat analysis because like it what you know what I am going to do and my success in the game is certainly a thing that I'll factor in but I also want to make sure that everyone's having a good time so sometimes if I see that one person's got some let's say sacrificey stuff or a certain I don't know like a an aura of silence for example is making it sure that the artifact deck or the enchantress deck over there isn't able to play as much as me with all of my creature based decks I might Target the person with the ore of Silence just a little bit more than I probably normally would to make sure that the enchantment player over there still gets to do some stuff I don't want to like give them free reign necessarily but I also want to make sure that they can get out right from underneath the Powell that has been hanging onto them the entire game and preventing them from getting any momentum at all well I I I know I personally had an experience where I was playing with somebody that I I knew them a little bit but I wasn't super familiar with them and they said well you know you talk about your valduk deck I would like to play against it I was like okay yeah definitely totally doable and they pulled out a slime foot the stowaway deck and and for those of you who aren't initiated with golgari uh like Joseph Schultz here slimefoot is very much known for an aristocrat style sacrifice my things to get all the things type of decks so I was like um okay we'll see how this goes and I knew this person probably they're a little spikier than the the typical Commander player and so they just eventually I would say probably you know turn six or seven things were starting to kind of ramp up a little bit uh addicted of Airbus came out I was like well sure okay so so yeah I effectively didn't get to play a whole lot the rest of the game because they just wait till my tokens that I made with Val deck went away sacrificed creature and and I was effectively just locked out of the game so yeah those types of situations where maybe somebody just effectively like you said earlier Joy loses their agency in the game that is such a huge huge part of why people get sour experiences and leave a game thinking did I kind of waste a little bit of time there um hopefully it's never that bad where you think you absolutely wasted your time but right you know as long as you can have those conversations and there there was a a Twitter thread thread recently about people who you know if you don't get to do the thing then sometimes Commander players will just concede but I totally understand where that that thought process of well I don't get to do the thing anymore so why I I I'm just kind of wasting my own time here Commander players like they like to do the thing that's why we're playing Commander that also is like immediately so nuanced right because like there are certain situations where like I I like so for example if there's a comma player has been able to do this a comma bound situation get a whole bunch of mana and then the zakama players able to take out all of your creatures again basically infinite life and also kill all of your artifacts and enchantments that is the situation where I'm kind of like all right I understand why if everyone feels that this game is over this game can just be over because I don't think that I can play anything that will stick and the waiting for the commander damage to slowly take me out is not really the experience I think I'm going to be in the mood for for the next half hour of my life probably like that is a situation where I'm just like yeah this makes sense to me yeah but I do also see like this is a kind of like a side almost nightmare for me too like I also see sometimes Commander players might give up a little bit too early they might behave in ways that are like sure sure it's just like well okay but you know just because you didn't have the answer it doesn't mean that there was no answer for this situation at all and maybe one of your opponents actually like maybe you need to do a little bit of Team talk with them to see what's really going on because that totally happened to me as well I've certainly seen Commander players who give up faster than they necessarily needed to and that is that's what makes this thing absolutely difficult and I don't like I can certainly imagine the type of person who feels that like oh well since I didn't get to do my thing this game was a waste of time and that is such a negative energy that I just absolutely don't like but there is also a flip side where like sometimes the things that happen in the game are so much of a like a oh okay there's really nothing I can do that like it just does make sense to wrap it up from there so like this is a difficult thing to balance to figure out how to thread those needles but man well and to go back again to what you said I don't know if people the I don't know if it's so discouraging that they didn't get to do the thing but they lost their agency in the game they lost their ability to make any sort of meaningful impact um you know to Circle back to my valve game I'm monored which is very well known for being able to interact with enchantments oh yeah very very well known so many so many ways to remove enchantments in Monterey yes but and so yeah so I I sat there and and I effectively didn't get to play the rest of the game and I ended up I didn't but um yeah just absolutely when players lose their ability to even influence the board State not even not so much play their Commander because sometimes you know a commander has to be answered people do so every every game is it's it's impossible to put down one straightforward rule that applies to everything because there's so many variables but in in a lot of games I've seen yeah when people lose their agency to the game they kind of lose their interest in playing that game yeah well and Joey too I guess one situation that I know I have come up across several times in games especially with newer players that I always feel bad and and I I know ice happened to me a couple times too is sometimes when you're playing and you discover a negative Synergy or a negative interaction within your own deck something that you you don't really plan around and yes it is possible in 2022 with all the words they're putting on cards maybe misunderstand how some of the cards work and some of the interactions there's tens of thousands of cards to play magic gathering with there is no way to memorize how each and every single card interacts with each other and so sometimes you might sit down and you might discover some negative Synergy that you accidentally put into your deck and maybe it looked like a good idea maybe you just like threw a card in for filler but nothing especially like I said with new players this is where I feel the pain the most when you have to kind of tell the person actually that's that's not how that works or it doesn't doesn't work that way that's always such a it's a crappy situation to be in to have to be that person but also I'm sure especially if you're a newer player there's some amount of embarrassment too about you know you're playing with people and you don't even understand how every single card in your deck works I I absolutely feel that like yeah there's it's a nightmare being the person who discovers oh wait this thing doesn't work the way that I thought it was there's like a social like like the embarrassment as you said but there's also like the person who points it out like there's no way that you don't feel a little bit bad right where you're just like okay I'm sorry to tell you about this but like in your Planeswalker deck here that doesn't have black in the color identity that Garrick Relentless that you're playing which has green on the front half but has black and green on the back half because of the color identifying icon that one actually doesn't work in your Planeswalker deck because of these really obscure rules about color identity that you aren't as familiar with yet and like you feel horrible saying that or like another mistake that I definitely see a whole lot is with the Myriad mechanic because Myriad let's say you put a blade of selves onto like an elder guard Roth as an example Myriad mixed tokens of creatures that are already tapped into attacking when you attack a player with the equipped creature with that blade of selves an elder gagaroth has an attack trigger whenever it attacks you can do like eight different busto things it's a really fun card and there's a mistake that I totally see happen a lot with that type of situation where the creatures enter the battlefield already tapped in attacking which means they haven't declared the attack and don't get the when this creature attacks trigger that is another huge mistake that I see all of the time and it's a really intuitive mistake and pointing out those mistakes you know you want to play the the game right you don't want the person to walk away not knowing other rules work and thinking that this rules interaction is how the the game can go because sometimes those rules interactions might be like a little bit too bust though like that's why the rules are the rules but at the same time you feel you feel horrible pointing that out to someone because you run the risk of making them like fall out of love with the thing that they loved about their decks so much when oh yeah like that's the thing that really sucks is I I feel bad when one of those rules and directions comes up not even when I'm the one who's guilty of it but also if it like I don't know also when I'm the one guilty of oh yeah in all situations when you discover that there's a rules interaction it's just like oh no this could be very awkward I hope that we managed to go through this gracefully fingers crossed you you know but also it's it's funny because especially when we play on twitch.tvhretcast with guests on every single Wednesday it's it's it's it's funny because sometimes twitch chat will catch things that we miss and I don't know if people know this or not but like content creators aren't immune to making mental mistakes um what I I know I've I've said yes even EDH Rec Representatives we make a lot of mistakes people we make a lot of mistakes I don't know what you could possibly I've never made a single error I I know that I like I I don't want anybody to think that we're kind of trying to kind of talk down to people who've had made this mistake because I've made this mistake on stream I sat there with and I drew a card and looked at it I was like oh this card actually like this doesn't do anything um and it for me it most often it happens when I take one deck and transform it into a different one so I have a couple holdovers but I've drawn several cards in several different decks and I look at is like oh this actually huh well I uh pass a turn because this doesn't do anything for me right now um I've made that mistake so many times so yes we're speaking from experience not just on the you know oh hey by the way the the interaction doesn't actually work that way but we've been on the receiving end of oh man I made a I made a mistake I it doesn't actually work that way um so yeah it's on on all sides this these situations it stinks and what I've ended up actually doing more often than not is if if somebody plays a card and it doesn't work the way they want to kind of the table typically is agreed okay we'll let it work this one time but it's not going to be continual let it happen every single turn um there was an equipment deck that that had uh an equipment that they wanted I forget what it was um and they forgot how I believe was how shroud Works they like okay well I want to put this thing on the thing with shroud and it would shroud doesn't happen anymore they just don't print cards with shrouds so like it's easy to forget that shroud means you can't Target it at all it's very different from hex proof and so the there was a newer player that they're like okay we'll let you get around the Shroud this one time um but just to make sure you know moving forward it actually doesn't work that way you can't Target your thing with shroud and they're like okay like thanks for letting me know and and it ended up turning into a teaching moment which is hopefully the result that you can get from a lot of these situations here yeah and again it's a hopefully thing and it feels even worse if like you don't discover the mistake until well into the game like there and there's never happens no or like uh I'm trying to think of one for me because again like we also do the mistakings of of like not knowing all the time they say that reading the card explains the card that's not always true though um but the whoever whoever came up with that saying has never seen a card from strict saving or companion uh or companion uh but like so there's one uh I know that there was at least one game that I played where I played some type of ravenous chupacabra in the uh as a means to destroy a creature and I was just like oh this is a thing that I played I destroy a creature and I wanted to kill off my own creature to get some huge death trigger effect maybe it was a Coca show or something like that and then several turns later someone was just like wait a second ravenous chupacabra can only kill someone else someone else's creature it can't destroy your own sure well shoot were several turns past that point now what can we do about it and I feel like oh man that's that's a nightmare where I'm just like shoot have I ruined the way that we're gonna remember this game now because I made a simple mistake like that like that sucks especially when you're streaming well and yeah play when we play on stream and in our chat is typically great oh yeah about being able to catch these those things in real time but when you're playing with friends and you catch that a couple turns later 99.9 percent of the time it is there's an irreparable board State it's easier just to go on with it make sure you catch it the next time yeah because yeah if you're catching things turns later or or you've been doing something a few times and then you realize oh wait it doesn't actually work that way the don't worry I guess my encouragement to two people have come in this situation don't worry about trying to create the perfect board State and Rewind everything two turns there's just so much effort that goes into it's just a waste of time just make a mental note make sure you you learn from your mistakes and don't make that same mistake again that's that's what I would say yeah and and as a thing for me as well like I kind of notice this myself as an audience member when I'm consuming other content when I'm watching other creators out there like I sometimes have that feeling we're like oh I spotted a mistake and that kind of almost makes me feel like well shoot there's this big mistake that's in this Commander gameplay for example and that has impacted my joy and like that for me is the lesson that I have to take away as well I'm like why am I letting that affect my joy are you kidding I get to watch a whole bunch of people who are playing a game and enjoying each other's company so much that they were not spending way too much time very closely reading those cards why do I need to carry any idea that now the game feels invalidated or anything like that like that's that's not useful for me like I certainly want to hold uh you know the the content that I watched to a good standard but at the same time like watching people get so caught up in the fun and the thrill of the game that's probably the most important thing that I should actually Focus myself on so like as a Creator myself I also want to make sure that I don't have rules errors and say the upping the average videos that I do boy is it fun when you are wrong on the internet that's it's really great when you when you make mistakes to something that a lot of people are watching but at the same time I do want to re-center the fun of all of that too whether I'm creating or I'm watching well and and uh MTG modester Andrew for those of you not initiated um has a fantastic gameplay Channel and they handle it very very well just anytime that they realize something doesn't work they kind of explain how it should have worked what should have happened and then they'll just keep going on with the game so it's not that they're trying to ignore the fact that like oh man we we made a mistake here we go I yes mistakes happen and I would dare anybody to play flawlessly for their entire career without making a mistake I mean it's the whole like glass house throwing stones type of thing yes mistakes happen but man just turn into a teaching moment and and move on from it that that is such a huge thing both in your actual gameplay the games that you are playing yourself and the games you're watching nobody wants somebody poking the muscle hey hey actually no no no like there's a graceful way to handle situations like that and and it's when you turn into the will actually type of moments that's that's where maybe newer players have a negative experience they don't come back maybe that's when they see those comments and and people think well this guy's just a jerk why why would I want to listen to them so so the way that these situations are handled that's maybe that's another nightmare for me is when people aren't graceful when they see mistakes because mistakes are going to happen this game is so huge there's so much like I said strict saving tripled the amount of words in the game and so just keep in mind chip on your shoulder about that one it's tricks there's not only are there like 3 000 words per card there's two cards per card so I'm not wrong it's true it's so funny but yeah so so I yeah back to my original Point handle these mistakes gracefully if you see somebody making a mistake be encouraging be teaching be part of the community that people want to join is I guess my biggest take-home phrase there yeah no the the I think in my opinion the most important thing that you said was nestled right in the middle of all of that about like a newer player not enjoying the experience and not wanting to come back that is the ultimate that is the UR nightmare scenario where we have not created an environment where people want to to play the games that that right there is the thing that like yeah handling the gracefully it's tough it's difficult whether you're the person who accidentally did the mistake or you're the person pointing it out but like the ultimate point of all of it should be like hopefully we maintain a group that is enjoying each other's experiences here and that is the thing to like always try and keep a focus on um which because the biggest nightmare would be like not having people to play with and having people who don't want to complete yeah that would be Matt we're getting into some deep stuff should we take a break the weeds I was and say what we should really keep our focus on Joey is is challenging stats yes let's take a quick break and then and then we'll come back with some stats that have been challenged so have you ever browsed in incognito mode it's probably not as Incognito as you think Incognito does not mean invisible data Harvesters can still track your IP address and online activity so how do you actually make yourself as invisible as possible online you use expressvpn like I do with expressvpn your connection gets rerouted through an encrypted server and your IP address is masked when I'm writing a new video or planning out show notes for an episode I like to go to say a business center or my favorite local cafe yes I know that's a cliche but being in different spaces really helps my Creative Energy and it's nice to be able to do that without that nagging worry about internet security and best of all expressvpn is super easy to use no matter what device you're on phone laptop or even smart TV all you have to do is tap one button it's like casting it to fairies protection on your laptop so if you really want to go Incognito and protect your privacy secure yourself with the the number one rated VPN visit expressvpn.com EDH and get three extra months for free that's exp r e s s vpn.com EDH go to expressvpn.com EDH to learn more and now back to the show alrighty let's get to challenging some stats because there's so much data on idiotrack but we don't always agree with it sometimes cards are over or underplayed and I've got a fun one here that um I don't know I hope that it makes Dana proud because it refers to a card that makes you pay life to draw cards and as we know that is one of Dana's absolute favorite things to do specifically I want to spend a little bit of time talking about painful truths which is such a good card and in fact it's showing up in over 30 000 decks just in general right now like this card sees plenty of play but there is a specific Niche that I think I could see even more play because that's just how much of a good card it is painful truths is that two in a black sorcery that says uh you draw X cards and you lose X life where X is the number of colors of Mana spent to cast this spell so most of the time where you're gonna see this card is in multi-colored decks especially like mardu decks or any five color deck because it's going to be three Mana two draw three cards but I would wager that you should actually probably also consider playing this in some two color decks as well specific typically any two color Decks that care about a lot of treasure tokens so for example bracos party leader makes a lot of treasure tokens or Kalyan reclusive painter also makes a ton of treasure tokens and those treasure tokens can tap to add any color of Mana so you can actually get this three Mana draw 3 lose 3 effect even in a two color deck if your deck is all about creating these multi-color Mana sources and I just think that this is kind of a fun unique Niche that even Mr Dana roach paying all of his life to do things would be extremely happy to see so yeah if you play Treasures consider painful truths even if you're not playing three or more colors Matt what's your challenge well my challenge this week comes from a listener so Greg Bolton not to be confused with Michael Bolton but Greg Bolton shot us an email and had a really good challenge that uh I'm actually kind of a big fan of especially having recently built my own spelling or deck so uh Greg points out in a spelling your decks especially Veyron voice of Duality so that's the is it spellslinger whenever you cast or copy instance or sorcery spells Varian gets plus ones plus one time to turn and then casting or copying instance or sorcery spells if they cause a triggered ability to uh of a permanence you control to trigger it triggers an additional time so in these types of decks ever since strix Haven as Greg points out where they're doing a lot of copying so they care about magecraft abilities so whatever you cast or copy a spell if you're doing a lot of those copying and you have copy triggers Available to You zotahedron grinder is actually a fantastic addition SO zotahedron grinder for those who don't remember because it's been a while since it was printed is 300 red for a legendary Goblin Ally and it says whenever you cast an instant or sorcerer that targets only zotahedron grinder copy that spell for each other creature you control that the spell could Target each copy targets a different one of those creatures now there's already some spells in there there's some creatures in there that deal with copying spells uh beam splitter Mage is another good one that some variant decks are playing and if you're playing the typical Varin deck that plays a lot of Target creature gets X and then can trips out so I'm talking cards like expedite or Shadow Rift where you give a creature an ability and then you get to draw a card this isn't an excellent excellent addition to that because you're going to draw fistfuls of cards as long as you have a couple creatures out being able to cast fists of flame to follow up on that huh that is a fantastic way to punch through a ton of damage fists of flame is uh one and one in a red for an instant says draw card until end of turn Target creature gains trample and gets plus one plus o for each card you've drawn this turn so that card gets exponentially better the more creatures you have out on the battlefield and remember too folks whenever you're casting or copying all those spells they aren't just getting massive huge so huge absolutely crazy so giving Veyron trample for example is that's that's scary that's real scary so Greg this is a fantastic catch currently zada's only being played in about 13 of decks now not every single Varin deck needs a zata but if you're playing the more combat trick focused type of Varin deck Zada is definitely worth a gander because you're gonna get so many triggers out of everything on the battlefield really but man I I really really like this challenge great call if you need a lot of copy triggers as well you're going to get a lot of magecraft triggers so definitely give Zada a look it's been a while since Sada graced us so let it shamble on into your deck Matt can I just say how much I love that even when Dana's not here you're still channeling his old man language like with words like Gander Gander yeah that's really sweet of you I think that's really kind of I just I'm sure that he's still with us in spirit I know that Dana's to take a little little break and everything but I want the listeners to feel like the old man is still yelling at the clouds he's still he's still with us and if anyone thinks that we're being unfair to Dana on the episode where Matt wasn't present with us you should have yeah the stories that Dana was making up about about it so like it's it's the real roasts are from the ones that know you well enough to make the roast personal yeah like this is it is a demonstration of love to roast other people exactly I'm glad I'm glad that we've reached this understanding should we get back to talking about magic again we need to stop I I guess I guess let's talk about old cards old old cards well so I actually I want to start off as with the second half of the show here I want to go back to a another lighter topic um in terms of like our nightmares our worst nightmares and like this is a weird one maybe it's just me but like Matt I'm afraid of mirror matches like straight up I think that like the experience of mirror matches and Commander can actually be sometimes a lot more grueling than at first it seems like if I'm playing my Baba La Saga deck and someone else has a taster carlov like I feel like what I have now is an arch enemy opponent I'm just like I lose perspective because I'm just like no I need to be the only Aristocrats player if I have a blood artist out and they have a blood artist out that's not good I can't I they they're doing my thing that's supposed to be I'm supposed to be the Aristocrat person so I have to take them out like I feel like that's kind of an experience that I noticed no matter what type of strategy that I'm playing if I'm playing Voltron or whatever and there's someone else doing the Voltron thing I'm just like wait all of your tricks are also my tricks what do what do I do about this so I don't know Matt can you speak to any of that at all do you feel that or are you just like I don't know bring it on it's a mirror match cool I'll do the thing better like what what's your mentality at it I mean so so I've played enough 60 card formats that the the mirror match was always the most skill intensive whether it was oh if you want a headache play a merfolk in modern mirror match that is the most impossible thing because when your Lord of Atlantis is giving the other person's merfolk plus one plus one an Island Walk oh no what oh no yeah because it's it's not merfolk you control it's it's just it's more folk oh no yeah yeah oh no is right uh or the the infect mirror match that's the only reason spellskite is even playable and modern anymore I mean Grant infect isn't playable and modern anyways anyways but yeah the the mirror matches always were the most skill intensive I've never played a mirror at miramatch so to say in in Commander because I mean a majority decks turn things sideways and that's kind of what most of my decks do but but yes I I can understand because of my understanding of other formats yeah mirror matches if you're playing the same strategy and so you have the same tricks that you're trying to pull off for the same synergies they're going to be able not just to answer but maybe use you you make your move too soon and the person's able to react and actually get more benefit out of what you're trying to do than you were yes you know the aristocrats player you try to pull off a living death for example they're able to oh well in response I'm gonna stack my Battlefield and get on the graveyard yep and then get it all back from the living death exactly absolutely yeah so I I haven't seen it in Commander personally but I I totally get that the the the song and dance of the mirror match absolutely can be one of the most mentally taxing things in Magic maybe that's it mentally taxing is the the way to put it uh I mean like because like the way that this takes shape in my head is that like I fear like Milling myself like 20 cards or something and then someone else reanimate it's my creatures with their anime dads and their rise of the Dark Realms and all that I'm just like but you you stole my homework how dare you steal my homework you did my thing before I could do my thing like that's how it manifests in my head but the reality is actually the mental taxation of it where it's just like oh you know I I probably was walking into this being like I don't know dude like probably have a lean back casual game oh wait no they're doing my thing now I'm leaning forward and this isn't what I expected my brain is way more activated than I thought I would was going to be I expected a chill experience and instead I am like I am doing all of the math all of the numbers are floating around my head uh so maybe that's more like where that becomes that the actual practical like reality of the situation is very different than yeah oh yeah the fear that lives in my head and that's another important thing to know about about nightmares is that like in reality they're not actually all that fearsome sometimes they're just a little bit mentally taxing see I I think I think it's funny that you're dreading the mirror match when I remember now Rules Committee Member Olivia gobert Hicks sat down at an all Brea pod and everybody had a Brea off so your your anxiety about seeing one other person maybe trying to do your strategy what would four Brea players think that sounds like that sounds horrible to me like like straight up just like if everyone's playing Marion or everyone's playing that sounds like a game that like I think the idea is like oh haha but like actually playing it would be like there's no way that's not a nightmare right like come on I mean no knowing the people that were in the Pod it was not a nightmare because it was whatever let's throw caution to the wind but yes if you're playing with the intended to win I yes you are absolutely correct that does get real messy real quick yeah yeah I don't know just like there's a a funniness that sometimes comes up I feel like this also probably like affects the way that like the other two players at the Pod would also feel like they see two people who are both doing the same say it's Aristocrat says Voltron or whatever that might like kind of affect their threat levels as well like just before the game even began to like oh I gotta keep an eye on this because there's an over uh over representation of this one specific strategy at the table so like I might have to get my answers for that even more ready so like in in a mirror match like the way that those people are are affecting their threat assessment also feels like a thing that will be impacted and maybe that's why I just I don't know maybe I'm just a nervous recommet and I start to spiral for kind of no good reason but I think I have a good reason and therefore I keep doing it I I will let you keep believing it's a good reason um I'll sit over here and watch you and and the other Necromancer duke it out um and I'll just be watching taking notes enjoying myself and this is my creatures to reanimate don't reanimate my creatures yeah that's that's actually Your solution there right like when those happen you can just watch me tear my own self apart you don't even have to well and that's kind of funny too when you put yourself into that third and fourth seat you see those two people fighting over that one Synergy well that they're distracting themselves and you don't even have to do anything about it that's just they're living rent-free in each other's brains which which gives the the third and the fourth person more room to maneuver like okay we can kind of ignore them we're just gonna beat up on each other over here um when you guys are done I guess let us know yeah let us know which one of you necromancers finally came out with the uh with the Coca show in play after that big reanimation battle you kept on having now granted that probably spells demise for the third and fourth people because the rise of the Dark Realms probably got like 30 creatures there's also that there's also that yeah it can't be too complacent about it anyway that's enough about the the mirror match I don't know for me it's a kind of like one of those borderline funny type of like it's not a real anxiety of mine but I'm just like oh this might change the way I was expecting to go into a game of Commander so that can sometimes be more taxing than I thought it would be but that's enough about that man let's move on to you sure what is a nightmare big or small that affects you going into Commander well so I guess I'm gonna bring my heavy topic to the table here well so a situation that I think hasn't really happened a whole lot anymore which I'm grateful for for a couple reasons is you get into situations where maybe people aren't being completely honest with the power levels of their decks you know the whole like the joke is oh oh well my deck is a seven but it's never a seven is it no no that's a yeah that that is still a reality to contend with you're absolutely right the the I I don't know that like I can characterize it as like malicious misrepresentation of a power level necessarily I personally don't see that happen as much I think it's happened to me one entire time in the past calendar year but it is also like yeah actually trying to find it is it's still difficult so like yeah the the nightmare of it being like Oh that isn't necessarily what we thought you were gonna play can still kind of exactly on a game yeah yeah and with smaller insular play groups it's kind of harder to pull off I would say like when we play together between you Dan and myself we kind of know when somebody's trying to build up a new deck you know we'll talk to each other about some ideas we may not give all the details because we would we still like to surprise each other I would say but yeah it with smaller play groups it's kind of hard to pull off a deck that um the the the joke of like oh my deck the deck never does this but it does it more often than not or people who say yeah I've played a couple I've played a couple games with this deck it's kind of new I don't really know how powerful it is but they know how powerful it is they're the ones that built the deck ever done this before they say resolving their third tutor or something like that yeah yeah everybody's everybody's played games like that for sure right and I think that like this is the this is why it's so it's it's like actively difficult I think to have this conversation especially in the context that we're currently having this conversation where we know that this definitely is yes listened to or watched by a whole bunch of people because like we see a big mixed bag of reactions to this type of thing online we see people who are validly insisting that their deck is a seven after all how dare you and we also see people who say that pregame discussions just don't work at all or assume that we don't have like that we don't play with strangers and therefore we're out of touch with playing those uh those that we're out of touch with playing with different people which is weird like Matt you just moved and you're currently looking around for new LPS's to play it so it's like like we do have a different perspective on this being creators but at the same time like this is still the thing that we see and the Ultimate Nightmare is that like people didn't get to have a good time like that's ultimately what this is coming back to is that people feel maybe shorted a little bit on the game experience that they felt like they had been promised yeah and you hit the nail on the head right there like I I just moved to a new city not too long ago uh I'm I've been trying new lgs's trying to find one that has you know a fun Commander Knight that I Vibe with I've played with a ton of strangers and whenever we go to events we play with a bunch of strangers so yeah we get outside of our our stream play group or or playing with our close friends that we play with offline but yeah playing with strangers always has some curveballs just navigating finding those characters because I'm sure every LGS still has that one or two people that you kind of okay well they say they don't they build decks for fun but like they're not built like they're building decks more powerful than they let on so and that's counter spell fun deck you you got over there right yeah mood for that tonight yeah yeah they're they're I they're absolute people that they build decks and they're way more powerful and I'm not saying the pub stomping because the pub stomping thing has largely gone away um I I think the cedh crowd that was inappropriately blamed for a lot of that has become more vocal they kind of out of themselves in a good way I don't mean that sound bad but they've been more vocal like I'm looking for this kind of game and I I applaud them for that but the people who sit down with not as not quite a cedh deck but very very powerful and they just want to play the first game that comes along well yeah that's that's where your mismatches are going to come from and that's where those bad experiences are gonna come from I think I think that this also maybe I don't mean to hijack your your point here Matt but like this there was one more point that I had kind of brought into this too that kind of circles back to a point that we already taught uh we already touched on about like incorrect card interactions like negative synergies and I think that specifically this like in terms of power levels and making sure that uh the gameplay experience is not misrepresented kind of dovetails a little bit into our thoughts about Infinity as well and how that makes certain situations like this potentially even more thorny because I mean like on the one hand for instance there are apparently some unfinity cards that instead of getting the acorn Hollow foil stamp that would denote them as not actually legal unless you rule zero them with your play group they got a regular olive oil stamp or vice versa like there have been mistakes which make you like oh what's what legality is this actually supposed to be but this is also thorny just when it comes to like are you seeking an experience with those infinity cards because they might actually even the ones that are perfectly Commander legal like they're not doing the the dexterity stuff or other things that would earn them the acorn stamp that you wouldn't see in normal play even then sometimes I don't know maybe we're not in the mood for space bellerin for example to kind of complicate things just a little bit even the ones that are legal might still not be the experience that you're looking for and that is also a difficult situation to navigate if because if you are critical of it in some way there might be a lot of people who are put out by that where they're just like but I just wanted to have fun with these things and so like locating the right people to to be able to have that fun with is is difficult to do because I think that there are good reasons why people might not be in the mood for those silly cards even the legal silly cards but this is dovetailed into the power level situation and the misrepresentation of the game experience but but even then like having the all the infinity cards be black border I think that's going to cause so much confusion especially among the less enfranchised players like it's very easy for us to to know just because if you're listening to this podcast you're more entrenched than the people that we're talking about here but the the Casual people people buy packs at Walmart or whatever buy packs on Amazon those people they're just gonna buy a pack because oh this looks like the new set let me get a pack so playing the non-legal black border cards that there's no way for people to tell difference they're going to see the stamp but maybe they don't read those articles yeah those people definitely exist because Wizards the coast says those players exist so they know that there are players that aren't invested enough to read articles about legality of the sets but they're still giving an opportunity for the confusion that's where I have always had my biggest struggle with changing unfinity to Black border uh the stamp I don't think is going to do enough to help the lesson franchise players tell the difference I feel like it really hijacked your point about this but I'm I'm picking up in Earth because I I also it's not that I don't like unfinity cards I struggle with some of the execution points of infinity and it's purely on decisions that Wizards the coast made it's nothing about the players who enjoy them it I'm talking about the execution of them and that's that's the point right there is that say that you don't like The Walking Dead cards or you don't like infinity or something like the nightmare scenario for me is if I or anyone else at the table or whatever our frustration at like the way that Wizards handled a certain product such as Infinity like I'm I'm I don't know I've got my thoughts on it for sure but like if I allow that to affect the enjoyment of another person who was just looking for a good time like that is my Ultimate Nightmare about this I don't want that person to again feel like they don't want to come back like that's that that's the thing for me and specifically with infinity I'm just like I know to me the black border doesn't work because whenever I look at an Infinity card it doesn't have the immediate framing to be like hey this is a joke so to me it feels like it doesn't really commit to the bit which I don't think is good for a comedy set but this is also a situation where there are going to be like which I think for the vast majority of the time it's not going to come up but there are infinity cards that I think will come up in certain contexts because this is commander and Commander loves Niche stuff so there's a like it's a card called wicker picker for example that has sticker kicker haha very funny right it's legal because stickers are apparently are legal and that's the thing where I'm just like I don't really want to have to deal with stickers but if I'm playing a hellar deck which cares about kicker or averazal deck which cares about kicker well that's sticker kicker card actually probably is really good for those decks and so now that's a thing where I'd have to be like huh here's a thing that I wanted to bring in uh I I'd probably be best I don't want to leave value on the table right I'd probably want to play this in my Kicker deck is everyone going to be okay with stickers which isn't a thing that everyone's necessarily in love with a lot of people have made videos calling it unappealing because it's very funny yes uh so like that's that's the thing that makes it like that suddenly this becomes thorny whether we're like trying to navigate a power level discussion or whether we're trying to navigate a is everyone going to be on board with just what is the game experience in general that everyone is looking for to people like attractions to people dislike attractions I don't want to piss anyone off just because I tried to make a deck that I thought was fun and I also don't want to make anyone feel bad about the deck that they built that they thought was fun that is what makes it so hard and and I think to like the sticker cards being legal and all that I think this Falls a little bit in line with kind of where the the initiative cards are or or dungeons when you're allowing other people to get into dungeons you're kind of putting the onus on other people to track something that your deck is introducing so and Joe you you had you had jokes before uh about okay well if I'm playing a card that has the initiative I'm bringing four initiative cards so that everybody is able to track it on their own yeah it's stuff like that it's just if if this is the type of yum that you have for your decks then being a little more proactive to keep that experience positive for the other people that maybe weren't prepared for that type of game I don't have uh the undercity card laying around so I'm the initiative kind of doesn't do it for me and I don't want to be on my phone the entire time when we're playing a game but having those those things set aside ahead of time just to prepare the people you would be playing with I think that's going to go so so far in smoothing over Joey's old man curmudgeon sitting on his front porch yelling at kids type of attitude about stickers I'm younger than you how dare you I I know but but but but then also too like I I'm not an unset person like I'm just not the target audience I still don't know how stickers work and now I'm supposed to keep up with them and so that's I guess that's my biggest confusion was I used to be able to ignore unsets because I I just that's fine somebody else will somebody else will enjoy them um but now I I kind of have to because these unset cards are legal and I don't know what the mechanics do so I I it's just more work on something I just otherwise would not paid attention to let me me ask you this Matt if there's a sticker on a card and then that card gets bounced back to your hand what do you think happens to the story no intuitively intuitively what would you expect to happen if you're playing infinity and you've got a sticker on a card and then the card gets bounced to your hand I I I almost are we playing on Arena and is this is this Alchemy um I'm okay but seriously I'm assuming that the sticker would stay on the card because it's stuck like you would you would think it's huge the news I'm stuck on you or whatever but since since this funny thing is now operating within black border rules actually this sticker will not stay on a thing that is put into a Zone where you can't do it because it's supposed to function like a counter that's how they went with those things so like there there's an unintuitive thing right like interesting so I say this as a person who loves onsets unstable is genuinely one of my top five draft environments like legitimately ever it was so fun okay I'm not kidding it's like right up there with cons of tarkir for me I loved it okay I know Infinity makes me feel a little bit deflated because by trying to make some of those things blackboarded it feels to me that they lost some of the intuition of silliness and so that's where my frustration comes explaining all of that took half an hour on a freaking podcast like and so like that is difficult to navigate when we're trying to like sit down and have a fun game with people who wanted to play this just want to play their Halal our kicker deck and there might be sticker cards in there which is so then suddenly this becomes like oh there's a mental onus of like the complexity of it which is certainly sometimes tough but then there's also like the if I'm bringing all of my baggage into that I don't want someone else to be affected by my baggages what I'm trying to finally get around to here it's just complicated and you just hit the nail on the head too with that's that's my baggage as you said everybody has their own own baggage that they're bringing into a game their own emotional attachments to XYZ their own aversions to everything and so being aware of what dislikes you have and making sure that you're not letting that spill into someone's else enjoyment of something that they really really like there you go uh if we sit there and and you know say you know we the next game that we play Joy or yeah Joey Dana whoever you want to play a sticker deck um please be patient with me like I I don't know how this yeah certain sticker mechanics work so I'm gonna I'm gonna ask questions help me understand help me understand where your enjoyment's coming from so that maybe I can further increase your enjoyment because you got me with it um but if I'm asking questions don't just yeah don't dismiss other people for trying to understand how your deck Works um we've all watched me sit there and try to figure out Aristocrats and Joey has laughed hysterically at me no trying to not add with okay with it was definitely a whiff because I was laughing at myself like why did you even try to do this but yes if people are asking questions okay help me understand your deck I just want to make sure I know what's going on that is definitely a situation that's going to happen in more games than not especially with how many cards that are coming out so if people are asking then maybe okay this is what I'm trying to do this is you know what the deck's doing this is what the stickers do be patient with people as much as you you should be patient with people learning um be patient with you know learning yourself yes I love that and that I think circles back around to the original point that you made about the power level discussion or the misrepresentation of Dex like this is a question a a conversation that gets harder and harder as more and more sets come out especially some of the Bolder sets such as infinity or any set that has like a lot of really super Juiced cards in it like these conversations get tougher and tougher so I mean we are going to have to navigate those things and it's better to take the 10 minutes to figure it out beforehand than to like accidentally experience a thing that makes people feel like Ah that's not what I thought we were all gonna play and that is a way that we can navigate in big conversational ways and sometimes it's a thing that we do before we even build the decks I mean Matt you mentioned the initiative I don't put one-off initiative Cards into my decks because I don't think that that the fun would be produced well enough by that I don't even put uh one-off Night and Day cards into my deck because tracking the night and day I'm just like uh it's just not worth it to have that one card in my deck even if it's a good card to start tracking night and day for the rest of the game this way and that is and if it's not worth it for you Joey it's definitely not going to be worth it for the other people to take it yeah kind of yeah and it's your deck that that's that's thing people putting the onus on other players to track their mechanics that they're that they supposedly cared about so that's where I'm like oh help us out here yeah this this conversation gets harder and harder every year and that's okay the nightmare scenarios that we have is when those things are not handled gracefully and it makes someone feel put out and that they are they don't feel welcome at the table and stuff like that like again that is like the error example of all this we want people to enjoy the time that they are spending with us that they are spending playing the best game in the world that's that's the thing it always comes back to Matt are we Being Cheesy Again by uh kind of wrapping up this entire episode now we're having those dreams you don't want to wake up from and instead of the nightmares so I for the sake of not misleading our audience so we should probably Circle back to being Grumps that's fine that's the thing right like any complaint about anything always comes from the fact that we care a whole lot about all of this that's true it's true yeah so like I don't know yeah we we're just we're just trying to help pass on some of our past experiences um some of our game knowledge knowledge pertaining to the game to other people we we hope that this podcast is informative and educational to help make your future games better with your friends with strangers whoever and so if we sound grumpy or curmudgeony it's only because we care so much about the game we want to see it flourish and see people enjoy the game maybe just a little more yeah yeah well said I could not have said it better myself and uh that is why I will never wake from this nightmare because uh it is hard actually because the the person who just outdid you with words was not an English major that's that's the nightmare for you that's the true nightmare it's absolutely the case oh no I was just do I have to hand in my degree now what do I do I just give up my position as the editor okay well all right yeah uh there's a lot to chew on I think we went pretty deep in this episode but for now we probably need to call it good because the weirdest thing about complaining about anything magic or just like talking like theorizing about magic feels to me like actually the cure for any of that anxiety would just be to actually play Magic so Matt what do you say should we just like sign off here and actually go play something let's actually go play some Magic and everybody everybody home go play some Magic there you go the cure for discourse about EDH is to just play EDH I think that's a good lesson to end on so let's call this episode to a close and Matt if our listeners want to get in touch with us where is it that they can find you so you can find me on Twitter at mathis55 that's m-a-t-h-i-m-u-s-55 and don't forget Wednesday evenings we are streaming over at twitch.tv edhretcast guests every single week it's always a super fun time so tune in and you can find Dana roach over at Twitter at Dana roach it's pretty easy pretty straightforward there um he writes for Commander's Harold he writes for EDH wreck you can find a lot of his content out there and the other podcast too don't forget about Commander Central his other podcast is other podcast and as Dana always loves to point out you can also find us at patreon.com idiotrekcast if you'd like to support the show you can find me at Joseph M Schultz on Twitter and you can find the cast at edhretcast on Facebook and on Twitter plus if you've got a question for us you can contact us at edhredcast gmail.com our thanks go out once again to chase for assisting with the the post-production of the show so awesome thank you so much chase you can find them online at Mana curves which is a really rad Twitter Handle by the way and listeners will be back at you next week with more data and insights but until then remember to EDH wreck your deck before you wreck your deck [Music]

Channel: EDHRECast

Views: 35,703

Keywords: magic the gathering, commander, edh, edhrec, mtg

Id: xs1zRtBhkB4

Length: 63min 2sec (3782 seconds)

Published: Fri Oct 21 2022