Othais is a terrible friend to Ian.

unfortunately this is not at all the case as we know from documentation these were actually not developed until 1918 and by that point there were plenty of machine guns and aircraft cable Gramps back and forth on the development and the reason for this particular rifle which is indeed it was supposed to be taken up by pilots and crew this would have been a completely useless weapon for shooting at another airplane and shot from the airplane at other airplanes this would have been a completely useless weapon for shooting [Music] hey guys thanks for tuning in to a quick video on forgotten weapons with o'the eius from CN Arsenal we are going to talk briefly about the air service 1903 Springfield yep uh it looks like I was a bad friend because thanks again by the way to Andrew from archival research group link in the description if you guys want to use his services because apparently he's this good to cause all this controversy according to him and according to a memo that I did not release because I did not have permission from him right at that moment I was trying to be nice to his sort of research efforts and I didn't know what he was doing with it I've talked to him because of this controversy we have the document we'll put it on a scroll by probably right about now you're not going to be able to read it clearly to also be hosted on the internet but he and I both have seen the document now I just did not think of the fact that he would have an air service in his hands because of this auction I did not give him the down-low so what people when I got a number of people asking me was if we were both doing videos with the same gun and in fact we were not we both independently came up with air service 1903 Springfield's yeah this might be the first times to have just been floating around in the wild at one time this is a very rare gun it's up there with the Patterson in terms of US history and lore but that also puts in a position where there's not a lot written about it and it takes time to research now we have had the benefit of some sort of archival cleaning up in the most recent years that were not available to authors that were say writing books that you know I normally rely on for this stuff so I actually read the same source he did and they are for a survival rifle is a very strong argument because frankly this gun does not make a lot of sense in air-to-air combat and if you're looking at it logically in your Summa logical Ordnance Department I would agree and I'd by the way without Andrews work I would have said that this was a survival rifle most likely we now know that that's not the case and so the gist of the document is and you guys can read on your own the aerial guys in France are saying we need something for when the machine guns jammed and we're currently playing around with some Winchester carbines and then maybe the 401 would be good yeah Ian's got just the thing you want to talk about that for a moment buddy yeah basically well this is a 1907 Winchester self loader it is the well a number of these were used this is a particularly crummy commercial example not an actual French or American issue or service one but basically it's a blowback semi-auto in either 351 in 1907 or 401 Winchester caliber and this would have made a far better aircraft rifle than a bolt-action Springfield as a matter of fact if you read the document it's almost like they're saying could you please just get us some 400 ones but they did happen to say that maybe they'd like it if they could get that you know cartridge a little hotter like the 401 well that started the Ordnance Department apparently down a whole other honey hole because they ended up with this they just said well we got a ton of these guys so we'll trim them up clean up the sights to make them nice and open and give you a big old magazine this was the we're nowhere near the front and we're not sure what you're talking about but this is affordable gun and to be fair it's not easy to field a lot of semi automatics in World War one is what constantly three through both of our video series so I think what's coming down now is people are gonna say okay II and I are disagreeing about whatever no the truth is Ian went with the best data that was available up until this one particular memo and by the way this one particular memo reveals that Ian was correct this gun doesn't make any sense because it's not what they asked for it's just what they were given this is another one of those World War one u.s. ordnance not being on the ball issues I have to say in general a big shout out to what you're doing with CNR so you do a lot more original research than I do what I do is typically compile the available information from what I try to make is the widest variety of best reputable sources but with the volume I'm doing I don't have time to go into an arsenal and archive and start digging up original documents so when people are you are able to do that it's awesome and that's where we get newer and better information and it's really cool to see that memo of what were these guys actually looking for because I mean really the the thing that they wanted the most which would have been super cool to see is an extended mag 1910 Winchester self loader with explosive projectiles yeah he and I both are we're gonna be an agreement on this all the time we're both communicators of other people's research so you guys might look at us and say you're my favorite person on YouTube or not I get picked on all the time both ways but our favorite people are the authors who do the deep deep research and then are willing to share those are two stages distinctly we know both of us know a lot of guys who do a lot of research and never speak a word so having the ability to look into this and then communicate it great and then that information comes to us that's sort of like the first tier and then we're both second to your communicators all we're doing is going from what's already been amassed because there's no possible way for us to provide you variety and depth wholly from original content we must sacrifice some of our depth for the variety now in Ian's case let's assume that his show and mine started the exact same time which they did not he laid the groundwork for a lot of you to even be here for there to be a market here but if they launch at the same time or even if mine launched a year before his the output for Ian's show because it is basically a curio show look at this amazing stuff look at the diversity of this amazing stuff he would overrun CN Arsenal's production I mean in the first year easily because he's able to produce multiple videos a week because he puts all of his emphasis on travel and negotiating borrowing things and showing them off to you he's very guerilla and that requires a lot of up top memory work he's got to read and work on the fly and that's why you're going to see a quick simple cadence for everything he's doing ours is set up on a two week rotation is very slow very plotting I mean it's been three years and we've got 60 something episodes it is much more tuned to a standard sort of TV documentary style and in that regard I have more time to do this deep dive I have more time as we've gotten in the show to talk to more people and get their information much more personally on these sort of firearms so before anybody comes down on either one of us depending on who gets there first and who has the time we're going to get different results and that's why you should go ahead and just watch both things and understand how history is still alive and it's a working science that you can by the way get involved in I mean none of this is proprietary if you take the time and are willing to read and go and read again you can get involved in this the same as anybody else if there's something that you don't know enough about you can reach out and you can find the solutions just as well as anybody out there doing this sort of recording that's the fantastic thing about the internet and by the way I'm flattered I would I think before we get too deep into the mutual admiration society what we do really the two channels really do they work together very well I always enjoy getting the much deeper depth of research that you're able to put into the episodes so but what you say about people being able to do this themselves is absolutely true for sure all of the resources I use are out there they may be they may take some time to find periodically but if there's a subject you're interested in absolutely chase it down and you can be doing this as well as o'the is and I both alright so controversy resolved and I get along just fine we're actually fairly good friends at this point for those of you wondering why we don't do collabs all the time we live very very very far apart and both of us have material equipment needs to get around so we'll try we'll get to it when we can but it's not just a selling easy thing especially when both of us are sort of pushing the limits of our own ability to produce right now so that we can sort of keep this thing moving and for anybody wondering if we'd start getting competitive about this stuff no this is one of those rising tide situations the more hooks there are out there to get you guys interested in this stuff the more likely we are to expand both of our markets together there's no reason to get ego and bullying involved in any of this stuff and we were always happy to be wrong because from our perspective new information is our delight that's what we want we don't sit around and watch our own old episodes over and over again we want to hear what's new what's cutting-edge on the research and we're happy to redo things when they're wrong because we need to retreat the whole topic yep absolutely and just to clear one thing out this this was actually a coincidence that we came out with these two videos so close together we've had one or two before where we did plan out a mutual video release but this one I think caught us both a bit off guard no it's actually I find it very odd but I feel like we do end up with the same stuff around the same time and that's just superstition to me because there's no logical reason why these things would sort of coalesce at the same points but it's been beneficial multiple times over because we can literally compare notes which fantastic for anything that we're doing yeah so hopefully we will have more actual collaboration in the future in fact to be nice to actually be in the same room at some point I'd really look forward to doing some video like that hopefully it'll be possible with travel and work schedules eventually yeah we were pretty debating we're literally having a conversation before this video of okay so 10 months from now are we gonna be able to get in the same room maybe that's the sort of planning we're having to do now a lot of that by the way is my fault we're working from a diminishing list so I have to go where I can go when I can go to get these pieces once we clear World War 1 I can start sort of spreading out a little thinner and actually after what'll run will probably be less rare less often because we can just go to standard rifles all across history with have lots of deep available material and I can start to relax a bit all right that's all I want to thank in for his video I want to thank him for putting out the perspective that was already common and by the way I know it might feel a little awkward to hear what was the old version of the information old is in three weeks ago old but think about it that's been our history with this gun for 30 40 years at least Nelson has changed and by the way somebody could find one extra twist in the story that just a fines what they were doing or maybe they modified the expectation of the rifles and we don't have a cablegram for that I could end up being wrong and all all on my videos there's going to be little things that end up being wrong as people do more research so the pendulum will swing both ways on both of us it's okay that's why there's a sort of time will tell peer review element to all this yep absolutely yeah one cablegram could come back after this one and say oh well you're going to send a Springfield well we'll use those as survival rifles because they wouldn't work for this application know at any rate big thank you both eius I really appreciate having the chance to talk to you on this briefly and hopefully you guys enjoy seeing a little bit of clearing up of what happened and yeah we'll compare notes a little more ahead of time next time thanks for watching guys [Music]

Channel: C&Rsenal

Views: 155,458

Keywords: firearms, guns, WWI, History, greatwar, bf1, battlefield1, worldwar1

Id: w8KR8vzMBak

Length: 12min 3sec (723 seconds)

Published: Tue Nov 28 2017