Operation Certain Death & SAS Fighting 600 Taliban: Damien Lewis

the more you go into war zones the more you realize mad crazy stuff happens for reasons which you can almost not fathom I was more driven by what war does to people it seems to me that your camera and your film footage is worth more than your life at times you deconstruct the normal human reactions to other human beings and suffering to such a degree you can do your job it's face to face and intense like nothing else you can imagine I can tell you stories will make your blood freeze two dozen British and American Elite forces guys against 600 diard alq and Taliban Victor boot was the second most wanted man after o been Laden at the time in October 1943 we hijacked a train to a Italian concentration camp rescued 180 of the people held in that concentration camp loaded them back board the train and steamed back to Allied lines wow [Music] Daman welcome to the show mate thank you very much good to be here yeah very good I'm this is a diff real different one for us but I'm going to read out Daman has written over 35 war books with SAS s SPS and all sorts an amazing human being he's he's directed lots of films he's working with guy Richie but I just want to start here by reading out some of the books that he's written SAS Great Escapes to SAS Brothers in Arms the flame of resistance SAS Great Escapes SAS Band of Brothers SAS Shadow Raiders SAS Italian job hunting Hitler's nukes the Nazi Hunters Churchill secret Warriors Judy a dog in a million War doog operation certain death bloody Heroes Cobra 405 06 Bravo operation Relentless fire strike 79 a dog called hope SAS Bravo 30 that's unbelievable I just wanted to get that in there so all the viewers can actually understand how Relentless you've been over the past 20 years of writing books and directing movies and whatever you but let's start like I normally start let's roll all the way back where did you grow up and how did you end up becoming a war Cor respondent director author yeah so I grew up not so far from here I grew up in um a little well not even a village I grew up not even on a farm I grew up in the middle of nowhere in West Dorset um little tiny thatch Cottage my father was a teacher in a local school I went to the local school which is Hardies in Dorchester so not so far from here at all um went off to University and at University I um myself and some mates organized this crazy Mad expedition to to drive from the UK to the Congo in Africa so that's across the Sahara desert in a Land Rover and to make a film uh not none of us had no experience of making a film it was this you know sometimes naivity is the best thing CU it enables you to take that first step and every Journey starts with the navity is a gift in business it's a gift it's an absolute gift because otherwise you won't do it there's a saying in in the SAS or in Elite forces analysis to paralysis yeah so we set off on this Expedition it was a year-long Expedition we drove to basically to the Congo across the Sahara did our filming drove back again I mean that in itself was you can imagine it was the adventures on the way roughly what year we talking here 19899 1989 to 1990 and uh you know crazy Adventures on the really crazy crazy Adventures on the way and then trying to cut a really long story short the documentary that we made won the BBC Wildlife uh W def golden Pander award wward for the newcomer which is this like massive kind of uh you know nature Adventure conservation award for film making so it was a fluke and it was that thing sometimes naivity wins the day and then because of that you know kind of catapulted myself certainly into that world and the next thing this is even more crazy so when I'd been organizing that expedition I was the fundraiser right and I got Winston Churchill traveling Fellowship that's one of the ways we funded it right um I was I'm a Winston Church trust fellow and um in the process of organizing it I was back in Dorset I was working on a local Farm in the corn dryer right was coming back from a day's work on my 750 kawazaki motorcycle 38 ton fertilizer Lorry came around the corner on my side of the road took me out so I was in hospital for at least three months should have lost my leg should have could have died should have lost my leg I mean really touch and go anyway the reason I'm telling that story is because eventually when I was about 22 so after we' been on this expedition to Africa which by the way the doctors and my medical team said you are not going on the Expedition and I said you know Wild Horses won't stop me from doing that so after that expedition I got my compensation money for having to smash myself up on the motorbike now most normal people would have bought a house yeah yeah yeah yeah I used that money to buy myself a camera and a load of sound recording kit and recruited this guy as my sound recorders and we said and we off to cross the border illegally from Thailand into Burma and to join the Korean Rebels who were fighting against the military dictatorship and we spent a year in the jungle on the front line often actually far across the front line in in contested territory making a documentary film wow which which was then bought after the event and and shown on Channel 4 so that was the first kind of step into a real war zone and Behind Enemy Lines and that's that's a busy move move by the way it was it going Thailand across the border to Burma and going deep into Burma how many were there of you well myself and my S record this guy called Tom shien and then we had at any one time we' probably had about a 100 Ken Rebels and the Ken fought with the British in the second world war of course so you know we we would run across old guys in these Huts in the middle of the Jungle who might sometimes you go into a village and they hadn't seen a white person since the second world war and these guys would walk out with their rows of British medals and kind of salute you you know it's really extraordinary um but usually there was about maybe a hundred of the Korean I mean they're Freedom Fighters you know say cor Korean Ken it's one of the tribes okay the hill tribes that fought with the British in the second world war and then of course you know have been fighting you the Burmese dictatorship for for decades so we we' have a hundred of them with us there was one time when we were we were hunted by at least a thousand troops from the burmes military dictatorship I mean you know yeah we were you know surrounded and yeah it was it was full on really full on what what made you be so ballsy to do something like this what were you the mid 20s at this time no I was 22 23 okay I have no idea I mean that that is a question that I it's a tough one I'll tell I'll tell you a story because it's it kind of maybe it hits the nail on the head so I think my my mom left when I was quite Young so I was bought up by my father I got an older brother and sister and I think my father is a very moral kind of man a very you ethically Driven Man and I think he kind of instilled this certainly in me I was the youngest um but I'd been away and I can't remember I've been a way in a war zone somewhere and it was a bit later maybe I was like mid to late 20s and I came back went back to our home in Dorset and we sat up drinking a bottle of whiskey until about I know 2: in the morning and he said to me you know we were quite quite Tipsy and he said uh do you know that every time you go away I've have no idea where you are I've have no idea if you're coming back it kills me inside and I'm like and I was like yeah I'm aware of that but what would you rather have me do and he said you know just do anything go ah and sell double glazing you know just anything but you know that wasn't in the DNA and I said to him you know it's not in my DNA it's not what you put there so yeah it was it was it was tough on the family and I I can't fathom why it was but I'll tell you one thing if you go into those places you know cuz after Burma I went to all the kind of you know crazy place you can think of if you go into those places and you spend time with as as and what we were really doing you know a lot of people in that profession not a lot some people in that profession are driven by the desire to go get what they call bang bang footage which is the footage of people fighting each other I wasn't so much driven by that I was more driven by what war does to people yeah to civilians you know and the environment as well but mainly civilians and if you've been in situations where you've seen that kind of [ __ ] going on come you can imagine in Ukraine at the moment for example yeah you become driven by that mission it becomes really really kind it drives you onwards well to find out what the KnockOn effects of walart your average mom kid okay yeah yeah cuz that really gets you there you know what I mean and when you spend a lot of time with whoever it might be cuz I was embedded you know with the k Rebels then I was embedded with lots of sometimes you'd be embedded with a rebel Army sometimes you'd be embedded with your own military sometimes you'd be embedded with a foreign military you're always kind of on somebody's side and once you spent a lot of time on the front line with whoever it is you forg these incredible relationships they are so real and and and you know really really powerful and so that that kind of compels you to keep going back how did they react when they saw a couple of white kids come across the border and with a camera and a sound sound Mike we had the most unbelievable reactions I tell you one story cuz it's it's kind of one of the most Crazy Ones so we were we were right you know we were certainly over the front line in what they call Brown territory so you know fought over territory and we've been there for weeks on end and so we were carrying I remember one time right um there was a guy one of the Korean Fighters had um an M23 G grade launcher okay and he had all his grenades in like a like a photographers sleeveless photographers jacket stuffed in them covered in it right and I because it back in the time I was filming I was carrying sealed lead acid batteries so I had military webbing with my batteries sealed lead acid batteries slung on them and I said to him I bet my webbing is heavier than yours he had the grenades I had the batteries and we swapped and my webbing was Far heavier than his right and there was one time so we had our packs right massive packs and I had this the the sealed lead acid battery slung on me and there was one time we were going across a river it was a mountain jungle clad mountain and the river was you know it precipitous we're going across this River and I fell and you fall in that water what happens cuz your packs on your back and it's so heavy you get dragged under like a like like a like a upended tortoise and you can't get back up again you drown right so I was off right I was off and I was like I'm going to die and one of the guys one of the crane guys reached out grabbed hold of the back of my pack pulled me up and saved me loads and loads of situations like that so um but going back to your question yeah one time we were M middle of nowhere you know behind behind the lines and they some local Hunters staked out a dead animal I can't remember it's a donkey or something and they caught a tiger it was terrible you know they caught and they shot a tiger but because we were like these honored white guys who turned up there to film you know this war this forgotten War we were the we were the guests of honor at this kill so we had to turn up and they they they they they skinned it and they gutted it and they cooked some of the meat and they made tiger Curry and we had to sit down and be the first P people to eat it and you couldn't say no no you could say cuz they were like you know disrespectful so on the one hand it's horrific because they've killed this beautiful beautiful animal and on the other hand it's like please you know you're our honored guests sit down and eat this you know curried tiger just Lo what did Tiger taste like it tasted like you'd imagine it tasted like a really really ranked Tom Cat it was not nice yeah yeah big male tiger yeah and what were your movements after there then you're like mid 20s now what other War zones have you been to what really stand out in your mind you're like Jesus Christ that was super dangerous so the one that probably um the two that probably got to me the most are sier Leon obviously cuz you know of the British military involvement there and the involvement of our leite forces there and and the Sudan both of which are in Africa and I say that because they are I mean Sierra Leon the Civil War there was probably the most horrific war on Earth they had that policy the rebels of long hands short hands you know about it so when they would capture men you know civilians men women and children they would say do you want long hands or short hands and long hands meant you had you were amputated just your hands right short hands meant you were amputated above the above the elbow so they would they used amputations in the Civil War in si Leone as a way to spread Terror and control so yeah so when you come across that you come across the amputation camps and stuff like that man it's just it's just young kids who've have their lives and their Futures destroyed just by crazed warp drug crazed mad rebels in that country so that really what was going on in sier what year are we talking here you're talking early '90s through to just after the 2000s what happened was the British military intervene in serone that book I wrote operation certain death right yeah what happened was British military there in sieron they're they're training the the nation's government's military the the army of sieron to fight the rebels okay and there's some Royal Irish Ranger soldiers there on a training Mission and that 17 of them get captured by this Rebel group called the Westside boys one of these really really drug full crazy amputation wielding machete these just Voodoo you know craze setups and they're captured by these guys right and they're held there and so obviously we have to go in and rescue them and obviously the one force that you can call in to a situation like that is the SAS and so that book operation certain death that is the story of how the SAS go in and not only rescue these 17 Royal Irish Rangers but also by doing that by sending that message to the rebels in Syria they bring about an end to that Civil War so did that did that bring bring in cuz we've had big Phil Campion on here he was part of that mission certain that's right he was yeah and he tells an amazing story what it was like going flying in and then you're on yeah you got to do what you have to do to bring out the 17 Irish Lads out jeez yeah and and that that place where they went in when I was researching the book so gabber Barner and and the other Village okay so this is just a two or three years after they'd been in there and attacked I went back there right and I can remember going down driving down into it and there's all the bullet cases lying around and all the all the buildings are like still shot to Pieces it was really really spooky and Eerie you know you walk into one of those places and and you can feel recent death okay and you can feel Resident Evil you feel the energy yeah and the other thing that happened there which was you know equally equally insane well actually more insane was it during my research for that book I realized or I came across the fact that what would have been going on so the hidden context of that war which is just fascinating in in in the run up to 9/11 the terror attacks in America right if you think about it you're Al-Qaeda you're the you know you're those you're that terrorist organization you know this massive attack is coming you know it's going to be War right so what do you need to do with all your funds you can't leave them in bank accounts because obviously your bank accounts will get Frozen yeah so what's the most fungible movable mobile asset and the smallest asset in the world diamonds yeah where' you go and buy your diamonds illegally with all your millions and and and hundreds of millions of cash you go to a war zone like Ser Leone and Liberia which are rich in in in in war diamonds and that's what they've been doing they've been going there for for years and years and years and just buying up all the diamonds right and and getting rid of their cash because you can go and who was getting who was getting all the diamonds Al-Qaeda Al-Qaeda a binal like from the film Blood Diamond okay yeah so so basically when we went in there and you know We rescued the hostages but we also went in there and and bought an end to the to to the war of the rebels we were indirectly going in there to stop that that that trade in diamonds and that money L those terrorist groups so that was the kind of wider context and part of the way that I kind of got in I I got into that story un covered it was when I was there I I I you know you kind of talk to people and they're telling you this stuff and you don't believe it I didn't believe it to start with so I thought okay I'm going to have to do a trade in diamonds because only by doing a trade in diamonds can you really get to the heart of the matter so what I did was I came back to the UK got $70,000 right in cash got a mate of Mine He's a former SAS guy in fact he's a kiwi SAS guy to come with me right and we went there and I had the $70,000 strapped them out my race so we fly into sir go through the airport and then we went up country and we bought a a parel of diamonds including a 207 seven karat Stone that's that's a big rock big rock uncut Okay the reason being that when you've got a big rock like that okay it buys you access to the really bad people do you understand cuz they know you're serious yeah they know you're serious they know you've got something to buy and something to trade right and so we got right into the heart of that Nexus of illegal diamonds yeah diamond miners wanting to sell them and people with money who were bad people wanting to launder their cash that's what had been going on there right yeah and you got right into the mix of this bloody yeah and then and then of course what we did or I did was we came out with the diamonds and you had by then you had to certif well you didn't you didn't have to certify them a lot of people weren't obviously but we certified them I bought them out and then I went to antor which is the world's biggest diamond right okay and I went there although I'd certified them I went there and met all these Diamond dealers said right I've been a Sone I've got no paperwork I've got these diamonds to sell what will you give me for them to prove that you can still trade in them did you get my DFT yeah what so what do 70 GS equate to 70 grand worth of diamonds what do that equate to when you come back to ENT do you mean it's terms of size yeah no in terms of money in terms of money would you buy 70 grand Stone and would it come back to ANP and be worth 140 double bubble or it it depends if you'd gone there if I'd gone there with my paperwork and it was certified yes then you'd make money but because I went there posing as someone who'd got illegal diamonds it's worth like you know 30 grand Grand my drift that's the difference yeah but if you're if you're a terrorist organization and and you've got you know 100 million in the bank and you know it's going to get seized or you've got to take a 50% hit on it but you're still going to have 50% do you get my I agree you're going to launder it into into into blood diamonds that's what they were doing so why what in sier Leon I want to know why these groups were fighting going around chopping people's arms off what was the reason what what was the reason what was the core behind it all mate it's a really good question I mean the more you go into war zones the more you realize mad crazy stuff happens for reasons of which you can almost not fathom like is it Resident Evil um Sone had serone was called the Swiss the Switzerland of West Africa independence from Britain it is a beautiful country the people are actually lovely I mean if you go there you you know they are lovely people right but the the rebels just believe that by spreading terror is a means of control if I terrorize you I can control you think about it if you are worried that I'm going to come into your village kidnap your children and chop their arms off if they're too young to be soldiers or recruit them as child soldiers if they're old enough that will terrorize you and you will do whatever I want you to do that's what it really boils down to and the more you can control people the more you can control the diamond trade and the drugs trade so really I guess it boils down to money yeah yeah Terror equals control equals controlling you know the money so the big dogs at the top are controlling it and the guys running around shooting and dropping arms or they're just doing all the donkey work yeah that's it you got it yeah wow yeah fair play so you went back into that country a few years after it all stopped after the SAS coming to the 17 Irish out you went back in were you nervous going back in at all or did you know it all Cal completely calmed down no no it was it was it was yeah it was obviously um it wasn't secure at all yeah but that I had a watershed moment in my life so before that watershed moment that's why I started writing books before that I was I I can't explain to you uh the lack of um rationality or fear I mean I ended up in some very uh crazy dangerous situations on many occasions many I can tell you stories that make your blood freeze I would love to hear some some of the most the top three dangerous situations you've ever been in well on that first trip I mentioned you the one we went into Burma and funny enough I was with the guy literally last week we met up for a reunion so I was there my cameraman my sord is Tom shien he had to go back because eventually he just ran out of time and I stayed behind to get some footage we'd given a camera to one of the Frontline Fighters and he taken it right right right deep into enemy territory and brought us back a load of footage so I was waiting and I was bored and there was a a guy there who was a carpenter working for voluntering services overseas right lovely guy became a really good mate in mine and there were all these uh convoys going through at night okay through the jungle and we didn't know what they were carrying was it Weaponry was it drugs was it we didn't know and I said I want to I want to go and film those convoys and want to find out what the [ __ ] they do you mind me swearing no about that I want to find out what the [ __ ] they're doing right so we got a bottle of sang tip yeah um stip that's based with amphetamin that's a tide whiskey yeah Tai whiskey and it actually is in based with in inet is it yeah I didn't know anyway we had a b bottle of sang tip so we took the bottle of whiskey up to the road at night right we slung our hammocks in the jungle and just sat there me with my big camera and we were just drinking the whiskey anyway and several of these convoys came past and I filmed them right I'm standing there and filming them and then and and we every time we getting a bit more Tipsy and then eventually a convoy stops and a guy gets down from the cab and there's a guy on top and this truck's carrying Timber there's a guy on top with a big machete and there's a guy got down from the cab right and he walks over to me and he can speak pigeon English and he goes you take film of truck and I'm still running the camera yeah I said yeah that's right and he said and he pulls out his pistol puts it in my ribs and goes you give me the camera or you die and I said well you better shoot me then cuz you're not getting the camera right and I'm still running it and I said to him and it's still running and everything's being filmed and not only that if you shoot me you're going to be answerable too cuz I knew the head you know military guys in in in the in the K base nearby so there was this all this going on right and then my mate the carpenter the vso guy he's big guy probably 6'2 just comes under the truck and appears out of nowhere and the guy's got the gun in my ribs sees this other white guy big guy and thinks there's two of them and I and at the same time I can see his eyes are completely amphetamine down yeah so he's out of his off his face right so it was a yeah that was a bit scary and and eventually G he gave up and drove on but the amazing thing was when we got to view the footage I know the next day or the day after the only way you could view the footage was you you had to get a generator there's no electricity get a generator fire the generator and use the camera to play it and we viewed it after that right we then went back drank more whiskey and I filmed three more convoys go through straight after can you believe yeah that is ballsy mate that is ballsy though so that's that's one and and then and then another one which is even more insane so it i' i' been into Sudan so Sudan is the world's longest running Civil War sadly it's now South Sudan and and Sudan but at that stage it was one country so I've been in there I know dozens of times all over sometimes flying into air strips in a little tiny aircraft no one have been there since second world war anyway I got to know the rebel leader Dr John gang really well this massive bear of a guy right really really impressive figure okay and and and there was all these allegations of chemical and bi biological weapons being used against against the the the the forces of the South okay I said look if there's ever an allegation of use call me and and the reason I said that was because so I got to backtrack a bit so after that first trip to Burma right we came back made the film for Channel 4 and then there were these devices Dropped In the burmes Jungle that they thought were biological weapons and so we went back and before going back I contacted port and D the chemical and biological weapons establishment and I hasten to it I've never been in the military but they agreed to train us or rather me to take samples of chemical and bological weapons cuz they wanted to analyze them here to prove if they were being used did you get my drift and there's a very specific process to taking samples that can be used in a court of law right so they train me to do that how you taking samples give me an example well so you if you're taking biological weapon samples you go in there and you have the you know their files they're like um like test tubes basically okay and you got you got labels you've got tape to seal it you got the protective gear you know the mask the gloves the suits um but really what it's about it's about the chain of custody so you have to fill out all the forms you have to film yourself filling out the forms in situ so You' got video evidence that you collected those samples from that location and then Pro and chain of cust all the way back so we got trained to do that and we've been in again to Burma across the front line deep into enemy territory and taking these examples of what we believe were biological weapons brought them back to the UK and got them analyzed by port and down and so I said to the guy who was the um the rebel leader in Sudan this was a few years later look if there ever any allegations of chemical weapons use call me because I'll bring a team and we'll investigate so I got a call and he said you know there was a un Convoy a un United Nations Aid Convoy going through a village uh and they they were they were attacked and the bombs that dropped left off this gas and and they've left these traitors of red liquid I like okay we'll come and so and this is this is a bit of an insane story so there were two former US Marines who were also trained to take chemical and budg weapons who were who who teamed up with me so we formed a and what we were doing we were filming it so we could put it on the news right but also taking samples to be analyzed so we flew out we flew into Nairobi and then we flew from there into Uganda got a a four-wheel drive and drove illegally across the border into San and got to this Village okay and then and then there are these craters and all this shrapnel and it's full of this red liquid right so they're going in to take the samples and I'm filming it and this is where it gets a bit insane so we're all in our protective gear everything you know suits gloves masks and I realize it's so hot I can't film cuz the mask is steaming up I can't see anything and the gloves are so bulky I can't use the equipment you know I just can't yeah so there's a choice either I don't film it and and we got no chain of custody no proof we've taken the samples here and we got nothing to put on the news or I take the kit off so I took the kit off and I filmed the whole thing with no protective kit at all now that is insane that is insane yeah it's insane so your it seems to me that your camera and your film footage is worth more than your life at times yeah it's it's um I I'm sure you've had guys say this to you before when you've had many at you guys talk to you but there there's something about um try trying and think of it this way so if you've been on the front line and you've been shot at and you've not died imagine how precious that makes your life feel if when that happens to you your mortgage your argument with the wife your future career prospects means nothing nothing just just doesn't mean anything at all someone could give you a million dollars in cash and you'd say it's Point meaning you know cuz I've just had someone try and kill me yeah so that feeling of surviving someone trying to take your life away it's it's just the most exhilarating there's nothing like it it's a drug like no other so it's highly addictive and what happens is the more of that kind of stuff you do and it's exactly the same with soldiers it is for war reporters the more you cannot actually feel at home or exist anywhere but in that situation cuz you come back right imagine it you know imagine I've just been out there taking chemical weapon samples with no predective covering kit right and it got it got even worse actually because what happened was then we had to bring it all out right so I've got it I'm I'm the guy carrying it I've got lumps of shrapnel files of red liquid you know vegetation all this stuff right wrapped up taped up and the guys the two US Marine guys go you go first because no no they would been good cuz they said we think they're on to us go first so I leave uh Uganda right fly out to Nairobi they come the next day they have been torn apart strip searched everything because they CU you get someone had found out what we've been doing you understand I had just got out so they' given you the heads up to get out quickly so I'm now so I'm now in Nairobi and I'm thinking well have the Ugandan government told the Nairobi authorities and when I leave this airport am I going to geted yeah and I am I going to R in an African jail for the rest of month which I don't want to do so I went to the airport and I I went to ba and said do you have any cuz there was a VA direct flight to London I said do you have any tickets left they said got one first class ticket left I said how much is it it was I didn't like eight grand I said I'll have it yeah here's my credit card I paid for the ticket right so and it was going out that night okay and I'm I'm [ __ ] my load CU I don't mind it's going to sound insane but I didn't really deliberate about that thing about taking off the protective gear that was like this just has to be done but I didn't want to get caught and end up rotting in an African jail so I'm at the and I'm thinking I've got to get this stuff through a scanner they're going to get me trp anyway so so one of these US Marine guys goes do you want to pray and you know I you know I'm not a practicing Christian so so I was like I don't know what God you're going to pray to but I'll have any God I'll I'll take anything right now anything anything so we sit in the car right and he says these prayers right cuz like like like like like some Americans are he's quite a you know firm believer and I'm sat there thinking okay you know I hope this gets me through what would actually happened was the other guy had taken my bag of samples put it through the scanner for me so when I came out it had gone through anyway and I was clean I could get B the aircraft oh result you get my drift yeah absolutely of course I do wow so then you got them back yeah man that fear you just said then the only the biggest fear that I've had then was getting stuck or getting thrown into an African jail yeah as a white yeah satting there off you go forgotten no one knows who you are what jist obviously that that's not that's like a third world country jail will be yeah yeah and not not only that you know look let's be frank about it you know I had no right permission clearance to be there from anyone and certainly not from the British government so I could hardly expect the British government to come ride to the rescue did you get my drift you know we were there as Maverick Freelancers and that's the thing about the Prof R being a war reporter the people who really do the stuff that's really out there on the front line or behind the lines they're on their own you Freelancers that so how is it how do it work then you come back with the footage and they say right we'll give you 10 grand for that how how does how's the business model work a it's exactly like that okay I I mean I you know I can remember situations where I walked into a newsroom having been you know wherever it was and I can remember one situation where I walked into a newsroom with one of the major newscasters in the UK in London right walked into The Newsroom and they'll say what have you got I say well I've got you know um I've interviewed a slave trader I've got you know um I've got you know some I've got a blown up t-32 tank there's a shot down helicopter gunship you know and and they'll say right show us so you sit down and watch it and I remember this's one situation where the foreign news editor sat down and watched it I'd been in I think it was sier Leone it could have been I it was some African war zone and he watched all the stuff he said look he said we got white people dying in the Balkans you know kovos kicking off why do we want black people dying I mean in Africa I this is literally what he said right and I was like okay fair enough and I pulled out my phone and I phoned the Rival newscaster literally in the news in front of him it said right know this is what I've got can I come over and I said yeah come on over shut right and so I got off the M Bar and he said okay hold on don't be Hasty I said right what what and it wasn't about it's not about the money I it was about how much time they would give you on air yes so he said I'll give you three minutes I said no I want five and that's that's really so yeah it was a crazy crazy crazy um kind of way to survive that was mad what what year roughly was this one the Sudan one well do you mean the chemical weapons the chemical weapon one probably like 25 years ago 30 years ago so late so mid 90s yeah yeah and and how many more war zones have you been in over the years what other countries have you been to I've been to um so Africa Zimbabwe uh Niger Congo Sierra Leon Algeria Sudan North Sudan Eritrea Ethiopia uh all over I mean just anywhere where there's been you know bad stuff happening and then all over South Latin America and South America most of the middle and Far East so yeah yeah I mean you just that's what you do wow yeah this is fascinating yeah tell me about South America yeah what are you doing in South America was that drug related I have I have reported on um on uh the Narco Wars for better word but but the the the the biggest kind of expedition I did there and and again it's another crazy story so don't have much of it to tell really because I'd had a bit of a um yeah something had gone wrong with a personal relationship with a young lady okay and had to get away yeah she was a little bit crazy lovely but crazy and I thought I've got to get away I've got to I thought I've got to get away somewhere where she can't find me right so I thought so I signed up to take part in a Brazilian government expedition to find an uncontacted tribe in the Amazon okay I'm not joking this is true you can't actually write this I this is true so I signed up for this Expedition uh fi is the Brazilian government Indian agency and there's a serious reason they do these Expeditions because if you can go into the Amazon and find and prove that there's a tribe that exists living in the Amazon and you can demarcate their territory it is then legally protected so you save that patch of rain for us you get D it's a really serious this is a serious proposition so we had to find this tribe and they were called the Jew okay and our guides not really guides but helpers guides were a tribe called the uru wow wow who were the last tribe contacted before this one if we could contact them to get my drift and so yeah I I joined this six months Expedition where we went and the last contact this tribe had had with with white men with Outsiders was when some illegal miners gold miners had gone onto their land and they'd shot them with poisoned arrows and the arrows they Ed were these massive I mean like I don't know six seven foot long Arrows with these bamboo heads serrated heads like that and they'd coat them with kurar which is the anti-coagulant you bleed to death yeah yeah and the last people have been sh with those from out Forest Shadows so yeah that that was a that was a incredible incredible experience and we we did find them that sounds crazy just break that down you fly into South America yeah what are you doing in the rainforest how are you Kipping what are you wearing what's it like going for the rainforest what are you looking for do you know where you're going they had an idea where they were you they had an idea where they were of course cuz you know one of the guys who'd been shot survived okay okay and we went and interviewed him and he showed us the scars yeah so been shot by the arrows but he hadn't bled to death because obviously if someone could bandage you up you know you can get treated you know but if if you're not treated kurar will make you bleed to death it's an an anticoagulant it stops your blood from clotting um so we knew roughly where they were and the uru w wow are guides um you know they they could speak a language which is so close to what we believe the language of this tribe was that they could communicate with them okay so then what you were doing is you were you were finding their camps yes you were finding their paths I mean we we used to find these little paths through the through the rainforest and there would be these puny sticks sharpened spikes set in the path for you to tread on you know basically saying come no further so there were lots and lots of signs of them so there's traps as well trying to get you prevent you from coming too close yeah prevent coming too close and you would see where they strip B from tree or they've been they've been picking fruit or they've been hunting you get so you were following all these signs and we were you know we were camping out in the jungle so you sling a hammock and you'd put up a mosquito nut and sleep out in the jungle and you'd wake up in the morning your M mosquito nut would be covered in all these amazing insects like butterflies like you know the size of both your hands huge stick insects and stuff and you'd see the poor marks where jaguars would proud the camp at night you know trying to scavenge food and stuff I mean this was yeah it was just amazing amazing experience um and eventually we we you know we got we found where their Village was and we we made contact I was filming I can remember the filming I must tell you the story about the tandir as well so I remember the filming and I remember filming the tribe for the like the first time they've ever they've ever ever yeah this guy one of the guys came up to me and I it's on film and peered right into the camera so the camera was like here like if seeing if he could see himself inside it it was yeah absolutely um mindblowing and the two things that stick in my mind also about that trip is one one of the uru guides guy called his name was Pur I got on with him really well and i' had a nightmare one night and he came up to me in the morning said just come with me and we went off into the forest a bit and he said and he sat me down he told me exactly what I had dreamed in he told you what you had dreamed in detail wow so you can imagine some guy sits you down some some Amazon Indian and says this is what you dreamed about and he tells you the exact dream in great detail right and at the end of it I said how the hell did you do that he said we just know and then not only that this is what you need to do about it right wow and then the other thing that sticks in my mind is there's an ant in the Amazon it's called the tandira and that that that translate as the bullet ant right or it's called also called the 24-hour ant because you die within 24 hours if the sting kills you it's about that big right it's the most venomous venomous ant on Earth and I was walking through the jungle with you know the team and again I had you know big pack on all the battery strapped on but I also had a um a camera brace with the camera on my shoulder so you covered in all these straps right walking through the jungle I felt something like crawling around there and I went to grab it it was a Tok andera and it it bit me on the nipple I'm not joking on that nipple there right and I felt i' been shot like I've been shot by a bullet it was so painful right I just ripped everything open like my shirt all the straps and everything and and pulled it off and one of the Indians came and said one of the um guides CU it took air and then you know all the treatment and everything happened and the mandibles were stuck in there jeez so I pulled it off they had to come off but the mandibles were still in there so did that infect you yeah it was it was it was not I didn't obviously didn't I didn't die but it was yeah I was it was touch and go for it's not it's really you do not want to be bitten by Tok andur it's not not a good thing to happen at all um yeah lots just explain to me what it's like walking through a jungle is it like we see on the Telly like is it you you pulling bushes out the way or is it actually paths for everyone to walk or is it literally you are going through the rainforest if you're walking through Virgin jungle so that you know like like we were most of the time there's very little on the forest floor because all the light all the sunlights in the canopy yeah very little light filters down to the forest floor so very little grows there it's actually quite easy to walk through Virg jungle okay um if it's secondary jungle I.E if it's been cut or disturbed and the canopy's been broken and light can filter down it then becomes much much more difficult you do then kind of have to cut your way through but where we were looking for um that this tribe was mostly virgin jungle and mostly you were following their paths that they made now you or I would not be able to see them we wouldn't know that that was a path but the the the ow guys we were with the tribe that had been contacted just for a few years they could follow the other tribes path and so that's why they were leading the way what was that feeling like for you arriving and going we've actually found them knowing that they killed all the other people before there were moments where you know we weren't armed no we were not armed because that's that is the policy if you go it that's the FI the British the Brazilian government's um you know policy if you go in looking for um a uncontacted tribe you cannot go armed cuz you know if you go in arm two things one it sends a signal to them that you're going to you're coming in in in a warlike way and secondly you obviously might be tempted to kill them because You' expect your own Survival so we we were unarmed so all you then have is your you have the the Indians who you know who are with you or the tribe that with you can speak their language and you have the hope that by your you hang stuff in the jungle these offerings so if you can imagine it you know you hand pots pans things they might be machete things you hope they can use they take them as gift to say are you walking in like hands in the air like we've got nothing I'm trying to get my head around that bit because that must be nerve-wracking bit well I I was walking in filming okay so I'm walking in with the camera on my shoulder and knowing you from what I'm hearing there was no uh no worries about you just carrying on filming it was just part and pass okay so so the thing about the thing when you are a cameraman in situation you've been doing okay try I'll talk about an example because it's hard to explain I can remember being in it could have been erra or Ethiopia and it was a famine okay you turn up there and there's a woman with her three-year-old child and the child is stick thin and about to die okay you're going to help right you're going to do something feed it uh give it some water give it some shelter right try and get it out of there maybe I tell turn up there with a camera I have to film that child die Jesus well I do cuz that's that's that's what I'm there for and I need to put that child on the news hoping that that will you know going AFF so the point I'm making is you when you've been doing that for years and years and years the normal human reactions to situations are completely gone you don't behave like that that's why it's so it's a very very unhealthy thing to be doing because you have to make yourself into just something that no human being would naturally be it's a very very strange yeah process so that's why you can walk into these situations which seem completely insane and you just carry on doing what you know you've got to do does that make sense yeah it does it does it does tell me about Ethiopia what year were you in Ethiopia and what actually is Ethiopia like when you were there I I can't remember I mean I've been there several times it would have been the '90s all the early 2000s and you know we were there I mean we were actually there we weren't there to film The famine we were there to illegally cross the border and try and get into another country where there's a war going on that's standard standard operating procedure that's what we really there for but you know along the way we came across you know um yeah really really um appalling SCS of famine yeah it's you know it's um it's looking back on it if I watch that footage now you know it's it's like Bob gor filmed it's the same kind of stuff and if I watch that footage now it's like it tears you apart but at the time the mindset of people who do that job is you heartless isn't the right word but you deconstruct the normal human reactions to other human beings in suffering to such a degree you can do your job yeah and it's it's it's hor you know I mean and the other thing about it is what we used to do it can be it can be seen as quite cold as well yeah absolutely yeah and what we used to do myself and other you know War reporters you know you would just go to the bar after you've done what you know your your stint you go to the nearest bar and you drink yourself under the fraking table Yeah because there was nothing else yeah you know so it's in in in many ways it's it's there's so many similarities to being a a soldier on the front line and this is why especially Elite forces soldiers often you know segue into that profession either doing security or becoming Cameron they've got the same skills the same ability to mindset mindset and remove themselves from the human situation um I mean I can remember being in situations where I've been in lots and lots of War situations with former Elite forces guys former SAS or SBS whatever it might be and I can remember guys saying to me you are madder than we are cuz when we're here we got a gun and we're taking shelter and trying to you see if we need to return fire you're there with no weapon not trying to take shelter trying to film this stuff happening so yeah yeah wow it's true isn't it yeah wow tell me about any involvement with uh Saddam Hussein or AMA Bin Laden or Afghanistan or Iraq the nearest I've come to um you know the Heart of Darkness in in IR or Afghanistan as in the books I've written to be honest with you and that's because I've you know I've worked with some Elite forces guys who've been into really really you know very very tough probably the most powerful story of all is the Afghan story um I'll just tell it briefly it's told in the book bloody Heroes and and and I think we were talking about it before we started recording the point about it is I can sit down with anybody I could sit down with a PR stitute a child slave a president you know a king from a Royal Palace a guy on the streets and I can talk their language cuz I've I've been in all those situations I've interviewed all these people you that's a gift yeah huge gift it's something that you learn along the way absolutely you know and so I I I can I can sit down with soldiers who've been in pretty much any situation I say I know exactly what it's like so so you know guys have a habit of coming to me and telling stories anyway so in the Afghan situation um I don't know if you remember it right after 911 our forces went into Afghanistan and there was a fort in the north of Afghanistan called um called it translates as the fort of War Mazar shif and um I don't know if you remember or not but there were like 600 Al-Qaeda and Taliban imprisoned in this ancient Lawrence of Arabia you know said they were imprisoned there yeah they were imprison we captured them okay right they're imprisoned there and they were being interrogated and actually they were being interrogated by two guys from the CIA from What's called the cia's special activities division which is the paramilitary wing of the CIA right and the guard force was just a few dozen um not even that one dozen uh American British Elite forces guys right and then and then a much larger number of the Northern Alliance so the Afghan forces fighting on our side right and there was an uprising and in the uprising They seized one of the CIA guys Johnny Mike spam right and they so they took him and the other CIA guy just managed to escape and rais the alarm and so around about no more than a dozen special Boat Service guys s SPS guys who were in the nearby town were scrambled they went to the fort and they had to try and break The Siege so there's basically two dozen British and American Elite forces guys against 600 diard alqaeda and Taliban doing suicide charges With Grenades and suicide belts to blow them up I mean it you know that six or seven day Siege is one of the most heroic and extraordinary battles you can ever read about it's it's just beyond beyond anyone's if if you wrote that as a movie outline people would say that could could never have happened because they they succeed they succeed in actually keeping all the prisoners in that Fort and fighting them off and actually coring them in there and putting down the uprising and eventually it reaches a stage where they're inside the fort there some amazing stories in there there's this one guy right who's a seal an American seal so the equivalent American unit to the SPs yes Johnny uh uh steep bass yeah and he's embedded with the special boat service so what special boat service and the seals or SAS and Delta Force they do the exchange programs so so this this American seers with those SBS guys and he knows that a fellow American Johnny Mike span the CIA guy has been taken by the bad guys right and so at the end of that first day after this horrendous firefight to try and keep these go these prisoners in the fort the SPs are pulling out okay and it's Dusk and uh and steep Bass the the sealed guy without a word to anyone just goes back over the wall on his own by himself right jeez and what he does is he fights his way across the whole of the fort until he gets to a vantage point and he can see into the southern part of the fort where all the al-Qaeda and and and and uh um Taliban guys are all the prisoners are heavily armed they broken into the arm store armed to the teeth right until he can see the CIA guy Johnny Mike span okay what does he do you can see him what does he do what would you do can't go and a rescue him he's W against 600 what' you do you know they're going to torture his soul what do you do he killed him he killed the CIA guy shot and killed him well he didn't know if he was dead or alive take him out of his misery cuz he knew what was going to happen absolutely wow and then he fought his way all the way back again got back over the wall right meanwhile one of the SPs guys had gone in to try and find him so they came back together the two of them right got back over the wall said not a word and then later the story came out imagine that and then after seven days of The Siege when eventually they put the siege down they they they get right into the the heart of the southern part of the fort and the last real die hards are in this underground Cellar like bunkers cellers in the fort okay and they can't get them out they want to fight their way down in there for obvious reasons loads of them will die so what they realize is that they can flood and burn them out so first of all they they flood the sellers then they put fuel down and they light it and the last to come out and and one of the guys who comes out the sell right at the end I don't know if you remember this well as well he became known as the American Taliban he's a he's a white American guy with a big beard who converted to Islam was fighting alongside them wow yeah how mad is that crazy story that is crazy crazy story crazy story and that guy who who you know shot one of his own still alive that guy yeah you mean the guy tooky no the guy who shot the CIA yeah he's still around yeah yeah yeah so he should have got in my view he should have got a high Val of medal for that I was just about to say the medal yeah he was they tried to they tried to do him for they tried to CAU Marshall him you're joking me when they found out they tried to caught Marshall him they tried to Pro double whammy on him my God we I mean there were there were e there were efforts made by from the British side to give him a high Valor medal but from the American side they tried to why would they do that how mad that I've had staz on here who's a good friend of mine he got the the gallantry award from the queen for something happened in think it was 2003 they did it because surely they would back your man surely as a country you'd go hold on he had the balls to go over there to look for his to take him like I agree with you completely but you know the laws an ass isn't it the laws an ass and often is so you know he ended up he he ended up okay I mean you know it's a long story so I can't go into great detail but all I can say is that man he is a hero an absolute hero of the story he's the biggest hero of all he went back in at the end alone against 600 yeah Al-Qaeda and Taliban who were armed to the teeth he broken into the weapon store he went in alone to find his fellow American and either rescue him or make sure they wouldn't torture torture his soul bloody H that is booy isn't it what year was that roughly well straight after 9/11 so you know literally months after 9911 these these guys were the first guys in do you remember do you remember they went on a horseback and they were the CIA were advisers to the Northern Alliance that's that was how it originally started so these guys were there right at the start this is right at the start of the war in Afghanistan yeah just a just just a story like no other Siege of the fall of war is that it was called Siege of the for war well that's what it became known as I mean you know the book I wrote is called bloody Heroes because it it tells three stories actually it tells the story of a of an the SPs doing a marine cter terrorist operation in fact in the channel there was a ship sailing towards the UK they thought it was carrying a massive chemical weapon so they had to go and take it down so they did that and then they deployed to Afghanistan so and then it ends up in the for of War Story yeah just yeah what other book have you written where you've actually you've been blown away and what's it like sitting down with someone in the SAS s SPS actually them pouring their heart out telling you everything that's going on because I kind of guess it may be a little bit similar to this when I'm interviewing these powerful people they're telling you their whole life in 90 minutes 120 minutes and after they leave going that was cathartic that was like a a therapy session because they've just gone V and that's that's crammed into like 90 minutes for someone like you how did you get all the information out of them are you sitting there with them for days on end are they recording in a in a in a speaker phone then sending you Clips no it's it's face to face and it's it's intense like nothing else you can imagine yeah so I've had 6'4 you know seasoned Elite forces veterans in my study boiling their eyes out literally sitting there in tears tears streaming down their faces cuz they're telling you stuff they've never told anyone else before yeah it's it's extremely intense yeah and I think they can you know you can't talk to people about this stuff unless you think they understand and they've been there and they relate so they've probably have never spoken about the majority of what they're telling you so yeah days and days of that on end you you you drill down into stories which yeah they've never even thought they were ever going to speak about so it is a process of and it's a process of trust you can only talk to somebody um about that kind of [ __ ] if you if you believe that they are a sympathetic listener yeah they've shared experience they're on your side and you're going to help them tell their story in a way which is real you know so it's it's a really yeah that there's there's you end up I end up a dried husk at the end of it yeah and then you got to sit down and write it which means you relive it all then you have to sit with them again and read it to them and you know it's it's a hell of a process when I went through it with Dez over Dez poell over Bravo 30 what a lovely man Dez PO is fantastic BL he's been on the podcast what a lovely human being what a story 20 years in the SAS yeah I mean just just a absolute star and I can remember I can remember moments with Dez I can remember moments with de you're probably not going to believe me like remember it's there with there me saying listen bloody tell it like it is don't sugarcoat it I need to know what it was like and this is me to De Dez is 20 years veteran of the S he's and he's going you're beating up on me here and I'm like Dad you've got to give it to me real you know um that's why you're the most respected or one of the most respected authors out there because you are real and because you've been on the front line people are like he gets it he's seen everything he's been busy character himself but just without a gun yeah that's that's that's a lot of trust in there Damon yeah it helps it helps and it it probably it probably explains why desz didn't just beat me up you know what I mean he was like all right fair enough and we we got there you know what what I wanted him to do was dig deep into his own experience I didn't want to know what they did I want to know what it felt like the feeling I agree do you understand the difference yeah you're you're in Iraq in 2003 deep behind the lines hunting for scuds right you've been there for several days your coms your Communications are so screwed you do not know if any of your messages are getting through and you're freezing cold and then and you're hunted by the enemy you're finding stuff you're reporting it back like you should be you've no idea if any of that is getting through you've no idea if any of the air missions are going in to take out what you're reporting and then it starts to snow yeah and turns into the worst winter in living memory in Iraq yeah now I get that but what does it feel like agree how do you keep going why do you not just get in your Land Rover and drive the hell for Le to s to the Saudi Arabia border why' you continue doggedly pursuing that mission facing all those things that you faced and and and although your radios are not functioning you're still getting the odd snippet of information and you've already leared that Bravo 20 cuz Des story is the Bravo 30 control you've already learned that Bravo 20 look like they've all been captured or killed and they lost three men yeah and in that situation what keeps you going what's the feeling inside you that makes you not give up that's what you need to get down into you need to drill down into that and and you know sometimes guys who've been in the forces for you know for a while they're not the they're not always the best at talking about their feelings yeah that's what you got to pull out of them that's what you got to pull out of them because that's what people want to know tell me about a book you've written about drugs well the the the most um the most compelling one that I've written about drugs is Operation Relentless because so about eight years ago an email pops into my uh inbox via my website and it's from a guy called Mike Snow and it just says I'm the S former SAS guy who hunted down Victor boot do you want to talk right now Victor boot was the second most wanted man after Osama Bin Laden at the time he's the Russian arms dealer who was the billionaire who we hunt we've been hunting him for years and years and years yeah he was known as The Merchant of death okay um so I read this email I'm like okay so I emailed him back saying yeah that that's interesting uh why have you emailed me I said I read one of your books do you want to meet said okay so and I found out he lived in the northeast of England I live in dors so we put a pin in the map equidistant we found a premere in we booked in for two days and I drove up there and on the drive up I'm thinking this is a former SAS guy who read who led an operation of the drugs enforcement agency the de and states to hunt down the second most wanted man in the world a Russian arms dealer called V called Victor boot why does he want to talk to me yeah do you get my Dre yeah of course what's in it for him so so I turn up there I didn't know what you look like walk into the hotel lobby there's a guy sat there and I knew his nickname was the bear okay and there's a guy sat there just about my height about 5' six but as wide not just as wide he's as wide with muscle with a completely bald head looking like a face like a sack of claw hammers I mean really looking like really looking like your archetypal yeah uh and I'm like he's the guy so we go into his hotel room and he sits down and he tells me the story for about an hour and my jaw is on the table right and and this is the point and then I said to him why are you talking to me what what's your reason and he said do you think I shaved my hair I said I don't know he said no no he said I had hair until quite recently until a few months ago he said it's all fallen out he said I've got leukemia this is the result of the treatment I may not have many months to live this is the one good thing I've done in the world I want my story told Jesus yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so yeah we told the story yeah so I mean basically he was because after being he was in 23 SAS the territorial Union then after the SAS he went to Africa and became a bush pilot he used to fight I mean this this guy is the most amazing guy you either love it he's a Marik character out the ying-yang noed he was called the bear I thought he was called the bear because he was a bear-like character no it was called the bear because when he was a kid it was about 15 he got given one of his family's Old World War II flying jackets okay and he cut the arms off and turned it inside out cuz he wanted to have one of those kind of like sheep skin waste coaty things that were popular at the time if you remember do you remember right and when he went around to see one of his friends wearing that his dad the dad of his friend couldn't remember his name and said a guy called for you uh he looked like the bear that's how he got the and he'd always been told at school by by the teacher that he hated you are a piece of scum you will never amount to anything in life that's what his teacher told him so that's why after school he was determined to get into the SAS get my drift that's what drove him on right and after the SAS he went to Africa and he trained as a pilot because someone from his social class let's just be frank about it does not train in the UK to become a pilot you just don't right you know in Africa CU he was a white man you know and and he had connections there he could get away with it so he trained as a pilot and then he specialized is basically in flying dc-3s which are a World War II era twin engined aircraft into the world's worst worst war zones carrying everything you can possibly imagine that's what he did for decades right and in that process he got to meet Victor boot who was doing the same thing right so and and and you know so he got to meet the biggest arms dealer in the world yeah yeah and work with him I was in with him yeah so then you know Interpol have been off the boot the UN off have been off the boot the CIA the the the the British everybody's been hunting this guy no one can get him and eventually he's held up in Moscow right and uh President Bush it was at the time go to the DA the drugs enforcement agency and say can you get Victor Boot and the reason they want one of the reasons they wanted to get him why they thought they should use the DEA was because he had been doing deals with uh Narco gangs in South America Latin America South America obviously you know arms deals with very you know those those those Narco billionaires in South America and that and and Central America they have billions and billions and billions of cash so you've got very lucrative arms things to do so that's why the DA got involved and the da well you well how do we get to him how on Earth are we GNA get to Victor boot Mike Snow Mike snow because Mike Snow knows him has flown the same routes has walked the same paths and he's a he's a PO can we make him a poacher turn gamekeeper and they teamed up Mike snow with two guys um oh gosh nam's gone out of my head Carlos and Ricardo so Carlos was a former Guatemalan military um officer who had turned drugs dealer who had been caught by the DEA and been turned by the DEA and turned into a a poacher gamekeeper right and they don't become de agents you can't if you've been on the wrong side you can't become a de agent for what you become I there's a special phrase for it it's like a special special inform or something basically you become an undercover for the da okay so Carlos was an undercover for the da and Ricardo was another undercover for the da I think he was Colombian again he was he'd been very very bad caught by the da and turned by them and so so Mike Snow LED this team of these two guys and then with a couple of American DEA guys kind of managing them yeah to put together this sting operation where they were GNA allegedly sell get Victor boot to sell hundreds of millions of arms to the farc the Colombian Reb Narco Rebel organization right everything up to to to surface to missiles to shoot down American planes that was the thing they put together to get boot to draw him out of Moscow to draw him to a place to do the deal where they could arrest him and that's what Mike Snow done and that's that that's the book that we then wrote which became which is called operation Relentless it's his story and he wanted that story told cuz one good thing he' done in the world and he wanted the story told and actually it's even more poignant than that the truth be told because he didn't tell me this at the time when we met but I learned after us he's be he's become a good friend you know I mean like I say he's a Marite character most people probably wouldn't like him I do like him he's blunt you you would think he is an educated UNC and all those stereotypes he is not he can quote Buddhist philosophy at you he can he can read you Buddhist poetry his his library is esoteric in a way that would just be you would find almost unbelievable he has educated himself he's a he's a man of hidden depths and and and so many facets but you wouldn't see that if you just knew him super superficially is he still alive today he's still alive yeah anyway and and the point is he also wanted the book written because in the process of doing the sting on Victor Boot and then the court case and all the you can imagine all the crap that came with it he became arange from his wife who was his child's sweetheart because of the stress yeah and he wanted the book written to say to her this is what we achieved or this is what I achieved and to get back with her did he get back yeah he got back yeah fabulous what a story yeah great story what a story what happened to Victor boot so he was was tried in the states um very very cleverly uh he said nothing at trial not a word nothing in his defense whatsoever because obviously what what what you know the Americans wanted to do is they wanted to do a plea bargain with him yeah they wanted to get him into the states do a plea bargain he wouldn't have to stand on trial and he would tell them everything he knew because he knew you know everything about the inner workings of the of the Kremlin and you know moscow's arms dealing around the world you know and and they're selling weapons to the enemies of the West that's basically what it was about um and Victor boot told them nothing he said nothing in his defense at trial he deliberately hired a lawyer that everybody thought was useless so the lawyer would get blamed for him going down for 25 years whereas actually he did it deliberately because he knew you know the way it works is if you are former Russian intelligence and if you've been a a a a tool of the Russian State as he was if you spill your guts to a foreign power yeah not only will you never go back to Russia but they will find you and they'll find your family age remember what happened to the SCP Pals here yeah yeah you will get yeah so he understood the so he kept he kept what did he get in the end he got 25 years in America in the states is he still there because recently he was swapped in that prisoner swap for is that him is it yes that's him bloody h that's the guy they swap so he got banged he got moved back to Russia is he banged up in Russia is he a free man in Russia free man obviously celebrated in Russia celebrated in Russia wow yeah what a mad story and when that prisoner swap was taking place you know like Mike phed me up and said you know this is not good cuz he he'll be at it again do you understand he put him behind bars but this is not good does Mike Snow get the fear of him being out in Russia or was M that's what I mean yeah okay and not just Mike but the other the the col and the da team yeah they're all like this just it's not cool no no okay for obvious reasons obviously not cool is it what year was this when he came out roughly when he was swapped yeah it was last year yeah yeah recently what what else have you done like we could go on for hours here this is fascinating by the way Daman this is really fascinating when did you first start writing books was it 2000 about 20 years ago yeah about 20 years ago and and what happened was the reason why you know I said there was a know there's night and day in my life that there's a watershed so I I had spinal surgery so yeah something yeah I just uh anyway had an operation on my spine L1 L2 are you okay today yeah pretty much I mean I went in and was 7 hours under the knife was an emergency operation um it's a long story probably don't have time to go into it but but the long and short of it is that I it's a miracle I'm alive and it's even more than miracle that I'm not paralyzed from you know here down that's what should probably you know touch would yeah anyway uh so M yeah that's not yeah amazing amazing right so I was a year in recovery couldn't go to a war zone obviously yeah what year was this 2000 okay maybe slightly later no must around there anyway um and during that year um I was approached by a publisher and the publisher had heard about story that I'd been working on as a from a war zone and at a dinner party in London some friend of mine told the story and the publisher said that is an amazing story you know could we get that as a book so I was approached by this publisher they said would you write as a book and I was like well yeah I can't go anywhere you know yeah I'll give it so that's why I wrote my first book and that book you know was a international besteller that you know kind of and that was called it was called slave it's just a book about a modern day slave in Africa so I was filming you know that story a modern day slave in Africa yeah tell me what a modern day slave in Africa looks like what what exactly like that's just Bonkers right yeah is Bonkers yeah yeah so um the the first time I went to to the Sudan was actually because we'd been I'd been in Burma doing that biological weapons story stamping those biological weapons I love how you can laugh about it now but this is a funny story and this very well-known uh Tory politician turned up what was his name I can't tell you the name cuz some of the stuff name I wa I can't tell because some of the stuff that happened was a bit yeah anyway it's a sheet she turned up in um uh it's like a game of guess who in it do you have glasses Ginger air freckles she turned up in in in in in the headquarters of the uh the the the red Rebel group where we you know the Ken Rebel group where we were where we had gone from to take the biological weapon samples and she found out that there were allegedly these two white reporters you know deep inside enemy Terr territory taking biological weapons SES to bring them back to port and d and she didn't believe it she said I do not believe a word of this she said and she left a card and on a card it said uh you know contact me if you are who you say you are so when I got back to you I contacted her I met her in the House of Lords for tea and she said so I told the St she was like say you you're genuine I said yeah and she said well okay she said um do you fancy doing a story about slavery moday slavery I said well it doesn't exist she' no it does yeah she said come come with us and we'll show you so I flew into sedan on my first ever trip to Stan probably 30 years ago with her and we we met a modern day slave trader so this guy was a you know was a an Arab from the north and basically what they were doing was they were coming south on these slave raids and they were taking black Africans and they were selling them in the north as slaves I mean just that that and so you know he was all wrapped up in his uh to hide his face and I interviewed him and he had some slaves there we interviewed them and and and ran the story so you know I'd gone there not believing it I had gone saying no no this this can't be happening there it was there were slave markets there were slave Traders you know there were slave raids I I mean after that I flew can remember it as clear as it was yesterday remember flying this Village it was called NL flying in there and as we flew in the Huts were still burning from slave raid I remember turning up there right slave raid yes so people they' ridden in on camels and horses C set my light I remember flying in there literally in the aftermath Hut still burning and um and it went slinging our hammocks and that evening I can remember really kind of stranger things stick in your memory I me this guy this this this Rebel kind of fighter turned up and he had a clashof slung across his neck like that and I remember it really distinctly because the curved uh magazine of the Kalashnikov was like burnished bronze gold in the set set African Setting Sun like it would just look really beautiful in a strange way and he had a goat on a string right I was like and I was like and he kept trying to give me the goat I was like and eventually I got someone who speak I said why is he trying he said because he's bought it for you I said I don't need a goat he said no no we're going to kill it we're going to eat it in honor to celebrate you coming I said listen the whole village has been burned you know there's nothing left this is probably their last goat this is no they said you've got to do it because they are they want to welcome you yeah in their traditional way you have to slaughter a goat and me man did you have to slaughter the goat no I didn't just roll back a minute you mentioned the word slave market yeah have you seen a have you physically seen a slave market yeah absolutely yeah yeah filed it yeah yeah what does a what does a slave market look like well it's a bunch of um you know black African you know generally women I mean it was many women and children that they they were enslaving it's very hard to enslave and control fully grown men for obvious reasons um and they would be there you know kneeling bound and there would be these guys you know in Arab robes you know with their hooks whips staffs whatever presiding over them and there' be money change TS and bidding and haggling and all that kind of stuff happening that's what was going on blood yeah and you know we had to you know the only way you could get access to that kind of situation was to basically just like I did with the diamond dealing yeah you had to go in there pretending you were yeah a potential purchaser did you go in as if you're a potential purchaser of trying to you you had to and and and the thing about it is the really interesting well not interesting horrific but psychology it is because you are white and because this is all about race it's about you know people of of an AR Arab persuasion so with lighter skins selling slaves who of a darker skin the Arabs presume you're on their side you get my drift they presume you also think they should be slaves cuz their skin color you know black you get my drift so there's a there's a kind of innate sense from them that you must be on their side that you're not there to expose what's going on so that kind of plays in your favor um but yeah I I didn't believe it until I went there and I was like this is really happening then we you know put it on the news that's crazy isn't that yeah crazy yeah give me another book that really stands out in your mind that you've written one that stands out you got 35 to pick from well I tell you a story that that that that's that absolutely blew me away I mean just blew me away so this book SAS forged in Hell which I've just published um you know uh SAS forged in Hell forged in hell they just come they just been yeah two weeks two weeks ago and what's this book about it's about the Sunday Times number one bestselling author it's about the formation of the SAS in World War II so this is when the unit was founded and it's about the Mavericks who who founded the s and and it's there's an interesting backstory to it so I'll just try and briefly tell it so 10 years ago around about 10 years ago I got contacted out the blue again VI my website and by a guy who called himself one of the keepers right so we got on the phone and he said I'm I am one of the keepers of the archive and the memorabilia of Colonel Blair Patty main now Colonel Blair Patty M who was the star of the BBC SAS Road hero show so Blair Patty M was the commander of the SAS for most of the war after David Sterling the SAS founder was captured by the enemy okay so we're talking in the 40s here yeah we're talking 41 through the end of the war okay and he's also arguably the most highly decorated British soldier from the second world war he won the DSO and three bars so that's the distinguished service order second only to the Victoria Cross four times and he won the Leon donor and the quadar and lots of other foreign decorations so this guy was you know you talk to SAS veterans today you talk to Dez Powell or anyone they will say the archetypal SAS Commander is Patty M they all rever this figure anyway so this guy calls me uh he you know he says we're the keeper of of the archive of Patty M and we want to know if you will come to Northern Ireland to look through it all so I flew over there and I went to the main family home met met Patty M's niece and there in a room which they've rediscovered in the loft is his uniform you know uh loads of stuff he'd captured off the enemy binoculars cameras whatever it might be you know uh and a massive huge wooden War chest stuffed full of letters Diaries photographs film uh archive entries reports from five years of operating Behind Enemy Lines right now that is a moment which you know you that's a once- in a-lifetime moment this is golden yeah golden and and they said you know could you do you think there's a book in this and anyway so I'm trying to cut the long story short so I I I there will be three books out of it so I wrote SAS brothers in arms last year which is the story of the first 18 months of the SAS this one SAS forged in hell is the next kind of like year of the SS so the push into Nazi and fascist Europe which the SAS spearheaded right but the reason I wanted to tell talk about the story is because in that war chest pad Main's War chest in one of the many many reports in there there was one which had this like one paragraph mention of this mission right and I read it and I thought no that cannot be true I do not believe it right so the paragraph says something like you know in October 1943 we hijacked a train drove it 100 kilometers through enemy territory to a Italian concentration camp uh took the Concentration Camp rescued 180 of the people people held in that concentration camp loaded them backboard the train and steamed back to Allied lines I was like no no no no no that can't have happened because I've never you I'm I'm an expert in this field I've never even heard about it this Cann have happened so then I started researching and I found two other reports by two different individuals which corroborated it it is true it has never been publicized before there's nothing ever written about it right so what happened was in in October 1943 um the SAS are the the tip of the spear to land on the Italian Mainland and they establish a bridge head at tamole right right on the T southern tip of Italy okay there's a concentration camp about 150 km from tamol a place called pisi and Italy had concentration camps like Nazi Germany did we tend to forget that right a guy escapes from pisc concentration camp he TS all the way to the Allied Bridge head he gets into the Allied headquarters and tells the Allied commanders I've escaped from a concentration camp at pisi now the Ally commanders do not have a clue what a concentration camp is cuz we've never come across one before this is the first so one they don't know what it is and two he's saying can you rescue all the people held there otherwise they're going to ship them off to Nazi Germany right and and obviously they will then all die right so the alak the alak commands thinking we one we have no experience of what a concentration camp is too who on Earth can we send step forward a guy called major wal Carrie elves Highborn 6'2 ramrod straight SAS major right who'd LED this this Jeep born tip of the spear Landing right and his French Deputy a guy called Raymond kurand who is the most you could not make this character up right so he's French Foreign legionaire before the war okay France Falls deserts from the French Foreign Legion goes to marai the French Port City on the Mediterranean Coast Falls in love with an American socialite there right they together fund and rescue 2,000 Jews and get them out of Nazi occupied France right then they get they get found out by the Gestapo right kurand just manages to escape epic Escape gets to Britain gets recruited into the Special Operations executive Churchill's Ministry for entl Warfare the organization set up to do all the illegal things you're not allowed to do th submissions with the soe gets shot in both legs by the enemy on one of these missions manages to escape gets back to the UK this is his second major Escape right now cuz he's known to the enemy they know his real name changes his name to Raymond uh Raymond Fox right and assumes a British American identity joins the SAS and is Kel's Deputy as they land in Italy and Raymond kurand right commands a squadron of of free of former French Foreign legionaires right so got a load of British essay they the French asses right and there's a concentration camp and they need to go get them okay now what have they got they're they're riding in their willly Jeeps okay you can probably get four people in a jeep there are there are hundreds of people to rescue you can't go and rescue them all in Jeep so what do they do they hijack a train they put brilliant they put coron's free French SAS and a bunch of British SAS on the train they steam it through American enemy territory meanwhile a Carri L's right takes a Jeep Patrol and they drive it into enemy territory to take the main uh crossing point to hold it from the enemy the train gets through they get to the Concentration Camp Rescue all the inmates load them on the train steam them back through carels are still holding the the cross the crossing point get back to British territory that's unbelievable it's true isn't it it's true my God and that's all in here some of it's in there yeah yeah it's told in there how excited I just saw in your face how excited you were telling this story is this is this out of all your 35 books the most exciting one for you because it's no one's ever found anything like you found there's a lot any number of those titles are are you know Revelator in terms of what they write about but that mission if you look if I wrote that mission as as a Hollywood out would say come on yeah come on mate this didn't happen why you ni there's no way that happened yeah but it's true and the other the other thing that's fascinating about it is okay get your head around this oswal Carell's command a mission in which they hijack a train and they rescue 180 concentration camp victims and bring them back to Allied lines okay that is an extraordinary thing to do there were no decorations nobody earned a single high Valor medal from that mission it's inconceivable and the only possible explanation for that is because nobody wanted that story to come out right okay and the reason they didn't want that story to come out this became this became Allied policy through the war is because they didn't want to publicize the concentration camps because at a very high level they argued that if you publicize the concentration camps you would demonize the enemy which would make them less likely to surrender and might prolong the war right okay you get my drift so basically 80 years on you've now got this story yeah and at the time it was covered up wow is that amazing you couldn't write it no you could not write it Damian I can't tell how much I've enjoyed this whole episode like this is this is like amazing the stories you've got and the things that you've done in your life is really fascinating you know and you just nail this eventful lives podcast you're like the epitome of the eventful lives podcast I thank you so much for coming in yeah I appreciate it it's been great I'm actually really quite blown away but by this whole story you're proper gentleman yeah I wish you all the best brilliant interview by the way thank you very much good [Music] man

Channel: Dodge Woodall

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Keywords: DodgeWoodall, DodgePodcast, JamesEnglish, ShaunAtwood, EventfulLives, EventfulLivesPodcast, DodgeWoodallPodcast, Podcast, Entrepreneur, Documentary, Crime, CrimeDrama, CriminalUnderworld, TrueCrimes, Boxing, IFLTV, Gangs, Criminals, CriminalGangs, TysonFury, EddieHearn, MentalHealth, Football, PhilCampion, DaveCourtney, TNTSports, SkySports, BoxingSocial, GaryNeville, DAZN, PremierLeague, CrimePodcast, TrueGeordie, KrayTwins, TheKrays, LondonGangsters, BritishGangsters, DeontayWilder, MichaelBisping, SAS, SpecialForces, Commandos

Id: QtQscZneG5E

Length: 91min 2sec (5462 seconds)

Published: Wed Jan 03 2024