OPC-UA vs MQTT 2021 Update (OPC-UA is still not the future of IIoT)

opc ua is the definition of point-to-point integration the problem with opc ua is that opc tries to be everything to everyone and therefore it's ineffective at basically everything and it serves a purpose but its purpose is on the edge you're not going to build an iot infrastructure leveraging opc ua the reason we know this eric who works for microsoft and is part of the opc ua foundation seems to think differently eric barnstadt what you are saying is not true you are literally misinforming the community opcua absolutely 100 without a doubt is not the future of digital transformation and i am so confident of that that i am happy to do competing projects against an opc ua disciple where we'll use the mqtt infrastructure you'll use the opc ua infrastructure and we can crush you i promise you all right so i want to share this this is kind of frustrating but i wanted to bring it to your attention walk because i don't know if you had seen this but uh that this i saw on linkedin the other day the world's first opc ua worldwide implementation they implemented over this thing called tsn i'm not exactly sure what that means but what i do know is opc ua is heavyweight and i had you know i brought up a point i shared jeff nepper's article about how opc ua versus mqtt is like 1 100th at the you know on the high side maybe 125th on the at worst the payload size and then someone replied you know saying that oh it's old i guess the test was ran a few years ago but you know the last i checked that the opc ua spec hasn't changed in the last two years so it's still heavyweight and whether or not if even if you implement it pub sub it's still a heavyweight right so even if you add in this new thing called tsn which i don't know why what the difference is but i don't know why you would want the world's first opc ua implementation worldwide i mean that's not necessarily a good thing there is no there is no opc ua implementation worldwide the problem with opc is there's a lot of reasons it's and it has it serves a purpose but its purpose is on the edge there's no implementation that's going to be successful leveraging opc ua across a wide area network especially at an enterprise level doesn't mean that you can't you know use a opc server client connection over wide area network for a select number of tags right you can't i mean of course you can do that people do that all the time you're not going to build an iot infrastructure you're leveraging opc ua yeah you're just not i mean it's it's and the reason we know this eric who works for microsoft and is part of the opc ua foundation seems to think differently eric's an idiot i mean i don't know what to tell you i mean um he was saying he failed to realize i was comparing it to mqtt which is not and when i say idiot i don't mean that eric is not smart what i'm saying is an idiot an idiot an idiot is somebody who's tries to speak knowledgeably on a subject that they are not knowledgeable here's what he said it is really sad to see so many folks that are still playing old tapes and continuing to compare proprietary solutions which mpt is not proprietary that's why i said that solutions to open standards while at the same time locking users yeah he's absolutely right there but he he's incorrect when he is comparing mqtt to opc ua as one being open and one being vendor locked here here's the problem with opc ua and i mean let's we can just have eric on the podcast and just talk to him about it yeah yeah i i think that what's probably happening oh well i mean if his argument is that opcua is the future digital transformation then all he's got to do is come look at one of our solutions and i'll ask him show me how you're going to do this with obcua that's all we got to do yeah there was a couple of opc ua architecture drawings i i but after reading his conversation though i mean here's the problem do you see this so much of the op right i mean come on so much of the opcwa standard is optional i mean this is something they just recently well actually this one's from 2000. opc ua guys listen let me occu opc ua is the definition of point-to-point integration it's literally the definition of point to point i said oh man this is a fat check for an industry 3.0 integrator yeah that's a huge amount of money there um and he i mean he's still using he's still using a modified purdue security model you know and still using that triangle by the way it's not a triangle it's inverted it's a trapezoid it actually gets bigger as you go up not smaller and it gets bigger as you move up the stack not smaller by the way um and it because what you're doing is adding context everything that wasn't a reference drawing that he shared but that's just opc let me let me i want to talk about the let me just real quick talk about this i don't think that he is saying that he believes anything different than what we believe okay he he's making the argument that you should use open architecture technology to help organizations digitally transform here's the problem with what he's proposing he's proposing that opcua is the standard by which you should you should unlock potential on the plant floor it doesn't scale because it opcua is only open architecture if you know what the architecture is opc ua is not stateful it opcua the model can't tell you i have specifically written opc clients myself okay i probably i know the standard inside and out and anyone i speak to who knows the standard inside and out the first thing they say is why the heck is this so verbose one of the first things you say i mean to just go ahead and and browse say three levels uh they call them i camera what they call them and they're standard but um we actually have a comment on their opc video that i want to bring up the the problem with opcwa is that i think in matt i think matt paris is the one who said this opc tries to be everything to everyone and therefore it is nothing it's ineffective at basically everything the opc the issue that the opc foundation has is that they have tons and tons of technical debt in their in their specification in order for them to become lightweight edge driven report by exception truly lightweight edge driven report by exception they would not be able to um oh that's eric that's eric that's that's freaking eric dude that's him eric bonster instead that's great the information microsoft said it's incorrect let's just have him on what was the video this is is opc ua the future of iot and he said he is eric barnes said is wrong and i and i i assure you he will not come on the podcast me i promise you he won't but i i'm happy to have him on microsoft standardized ua he isn't going to risk he isn't he isn't going to risk looking like an idiot but i'm happy to have him on he said opcwa is both lightweight it is not lightweight or performant neither that i whoever wherever he works those things are simply not true i mean just because he says opcua is lightweight and performant doesn't make it so i've done the benchmarks i'm not even the only one we had it peer reviewed we had we had our benchmarks peer review peer reviewed okay i'm not the only person who's benchmarked opc ua versus mqtt there's a half dozen guys all over the world who've done it i'm yeah i'm gonna share this video entirely what he's saying is simply not true eric barnstar what you are barnstat what you are saying is not true you are literally misinforming the community and i challenge you to come on the podcast and i'm happy to have a very detailed our motivation is i i would even sketch i would even write out on the board i i even write out on a whiteboard exactly what i mean when i say opcua is verbose and what you would tell me you're gonna tell me the same thing stefan hop told me you're gonna tell me the same thing the guys from sesame told me you're gonna say the exact same thing oh we're all collaborating right now trying to figure out ways to make the opc us standard ua standard more more uh um less verbose that's the first thing you're gonna say when i ask you why is 75 of the standard optional why is it that there's a gazillion models in there that you have to scan for by the way on the client side you got to look for them even if they don't exist that's the definition of verbosity by the way even if the model isn't there i still got to look for it okay you know it's like and and a person who implements their opc client their opc server the the problem with the standard is that if somebody creates a spark plug b connector let's say they create a spark plug b client i know exactly what i'm going to get okay i'm going to get a group id i'm going to get an edge id and i'm going to get a device id if i get if i get a an edge id i know i got a group id if i get a device id i know i got a group id and an edge id i know i got those things here are the optional components of spark plug b i can send models or not send models i can compress or not compress i can encrypt or not encrypt other than that other than that there's nothing else optional about the standard three freaking things and if opc ua is so amazing okay this is how if opc ua is so amazing then why did philip 66 pay ibm and arlen nipper at cirruslink to develop mqtt if opc ua is so amazing then why did phillips 60s by the way philip 66 entire infrastructure is mqtt why did facebook use mqtt for facebook messenger and they didn't pick opcua because it's not stateful you know those little ellipses that you see when you were text messaging same thing with apple you want to see those little ellipses your friend your friends are typing that's only because you're using a stateful protocol opcua is not stateful and but in pub sub is it guess what guess what the pub sub recommendation for opc ua is use our standard for the data model use use the data model that's 75 optional and then publish it over mqtt that's literally what the friggin pub sub standard says so why would i do that why why do you need opc ua is what you're saying why do i need the opc ua modeling engine why do i need if 75 of it's optional and mqtt serves our purposes just fine it it it far i can if you i mean i mean that metaphorically i mean it metaphorically you let's say but and i do this all the time i put my money where my mouth is all the time you don't want to get demonetized dude yeah no what i meant was i will you know like wipe the floor with you in a developing sense yeah wipe the floor with you in a development sense if i and i'm not mad at this eric guy what i am saying is is that he is he's speaking about things he definitely does not know the fact that he said opcwa is lightweight and performant is simply not true it is absolutely the opposite of that statement it's the opposite of that statement opcua has a place and that place is on the edge and it's nowhere else i would i would like for him to come on the podcast and explain because here's my point here's my point with i strongly believe that he probably believes what we believe because he he is focused on open architecture and not having vendor lock he clearly misunderstands what mqtt actually is this is just like the conversation i had with um the guy who owns real-time automation he does the newsletter four times a year he he wrote the mia culpa on linkedin um six months ago said john rinaldi john ronaldi john ronaldi and i met here's a perfect example rinaldi is a die hard in fact real-time automation makes they make modbus they have a gateway actually i have a couple of them over there they make modbus to opc ua um gateways okay and john ronaldi and i met at the at um the arc show in orlando maybe three years ago now and you know and this was back when i was really one of the few people who was preaching mqtt all the time i was kind of you know i was preaching at the basically nobody um the um yeah matt you don't matt asked a question how do you do self-discovery with opc ua you don't you cannot make a self-aware scada system using that cua that's the reason why he brought that question up right it's it's all it's all server-side you cannot make a self-aware infrastructure using opc ua the it is deterministic the server has to know what exists in the field the server's got to know what's out there already that what's out there already can't tell you what exists and that's one of the reasons we moved to mqtt but anyway i met with ronaldi in orlando a few years ago and he was and he he had written a piece in december so i met with him in february he written in his newsletter in december why opc ua is the future of iot and not mqtt and in fact he said mqtt is a you know it's it's uh it's not robust enough it's you know he he basically listed out you know all the reasons that probably this this eric guy would say john ronaldi i didn't talk to john again after after that meeting it was a very spirited discussion and i took and i said to him john you're a smart guy you are absolutely going to come around i promise you i don't have any doubt you will come around because you get it i mean and you're a guy two years later he writes a public mia culpa on post and post the newsletter on linkedin saying i was wrong and he listed out all the reasons okay this guy will come to the exact same conclusion it's not i don't have i don't own mqtt i don't even necessarily get along with the cirrus link guys all that well i mean i don't get along with them badly but we're not buddies i don't talk to those guys all the time i push this technology because it's what's best for us manufacturers to help them digitally transform and opc ua absolutely 100 percent without a doubt is not the future of digital transformation and i am so confident of that that i am happy to do competing projects against an opc ua disciple where we'll use the mqtt infrastructure you'll use the opc ua infrastructure and we can crush you i promise you not only will i do it faster not only will we do it faster not only will we provide higher value we're going to do it for less money and we are we'll be able to scale faster and we'll be far far far far far far far more lightweight i mean it's just it's an apples to it it's apples and oranges i'm telling you you opc ua simply can not compete with mqtt spark plug b as an infrastructure it's in you can prove this empirically we don't even have to do the project it's just simply not true guys if we missed your questions the viewership started to go up there join the industry 4.0 community discord server guys join the mastermind program it's it's a it's a large investment but when you break it out over a year and you look at where you're gonna go anyone who's joining you guys are supporting this right here and it really helps out make this content possible for you guys and let me say something because i i assure you what will almost certainly happen we will have a conversation and we will have a meeting of the minds we will come to consensus i don't have any doubt about that because he makes some he makes some statements in there that tells me he does he does get it he understands he does get it it's almost certainly that he has a misconception of what mqtt is and he has he doesn't do the types of projects that we're doing i mean he just simply doesn't probably because he doesn't believe they're possible because he uses opc ua all the time appreciate you guys you

Channel: 4.0 Solutions

Views: 6,556

Keywords: intellic integration, walker reynolds, intellic, iiot, industry 4.0, digital factory, digital transformation, opc-ua, is opc-ua the future of IIoT, opc-ua vs mqtt, mqtt, mqtt vs opc-ua, john rinaldi

Id: jQLAmHza0Dc

Length: 16min 58sec (1018 seconds)

Published: Wed Mar 03 2021