Only way to defend Kharkiv? France eases conditions for its weapons to target Russia • FRANCE 24

[Music] what's Europe's next move but with harke subject to a daily pounding from the other side of the Russian border a border that's just 30 kilomet away it's in the name of karke that Emanuel mcol on a state visit to Germany with German Chancellor Olaf Schultz nodding in agreement said he'd allow French missiles supplied to Ukraine to as he put it neutralize military Targets on Russian that comes on top of talk of French military advisers sent to the front line Vladimir Putin quick to react Tuesday with threats against the West as a whole and what sounds a lot like the Baltic states in particular with Russian troops now on the offensive and Ukraine desperately waiting for supplies of not just missiles but also ammunition and eventually fighter jets how close is the day when NATO and Russian troops actually Square all face to face on the battlefield 11 days out from European ctions how does public opinion here feel about it and what's NATO's biggest member going to say the United States which for now refuses uh to allow its Weaponry to strike inside of Russian territory can the alliance speak with one voice at this crucial juncture today in the France 24 debate uh we're asking is hitting Russian territory the only way to defend harke and with us retired General Dominique Tran former head of the French military mission to the United Nations thanks for being with us thanks as well to French Member of Parliament M clo of Emanuel macon's Renaissance party vice president of the national assembly's Foreign Affairs committee good to see you he know uh we're good to see as well George kovich Who tops The Sovereign Republic party's slate of candidates for the upcoming European elections welcome back to the show good evening and from ke France 24 correspondent Gulliver CAG how you doing guliver good evening more and more of you by the way listening listening liking and subscribing to the France for debate on Spotify Apple podcasts and other fine streaming services this Wednesday alone at least eight civilians killed along the vast front line in Ukraine including a missile attack in the northeastern sui region uh the uh two dead and three injured there Gulliver Craig whether it's in Sumi and neighboring K region it's a Daily Grind yes butsi region and harv region are subjected to daily crossborder shellings there were also civilians killed in donet region today I believe the Ukrainian Army's report this evening said that the most intense fighting if we're talking about fighting on the ground was happening in donet region with the Russians attempt to push towards the town of poov but that there was also intense fighting in harv region not in the North part of harv region where the Russians um opened that new front on the 10th of May they said that the Russians are still trying to push forward there but it's more or less under control but there's more intense fight lighting now happening in the east of harv region where the front line goes pretty much along the border between harv region and luhansk region near the town of kupiansk which is still in Ukrainian hands yeah and that brings us to what was discussed during that state visit Dateline the Palace of meberg north of Berlin on Tuesday the setting for the last day of a three-day State visit by the French President to Germany it's there that Emanuel MC moved the same red line that the UK had moved ear ear this month how do we explain to ukrainians that we're going to have to protect these towns and basically everything we see around har at the moment if we tell them that they're not allowed to reach the point where the missiles are fired from we tell them we're supplying you with weapons but you can't defend yourselves we stay exactly within the same framework we think that we should allow them to neutralize the military sites from which the missiles are fired the missiles and basically the military sites from which Ukraine is attacked but we mustn't allow them to hit other Targets in Russia de tank is this the first time since February 2022 where we have this situation where the front line is the Border uh yes the front line is the Border uh north of uh dbas which is a new position uh initially during the first two month in fact the Russian were attacking kif they were on the border of the on the suburb sorry of kif but there were were not able to capture uh gaki and then in uh in September 22 in fact they they were pushed uh very far away from K and uh out on the Russian border um so now there is this attack on kiv I think there are two reasons the first reasons explained by the russan is that they want to establish a buffer zone between belgaro and the and kak I think it's a it's not the good reason because anyway there are drones who are launched there and so the range is not a problem uh the main problem I think is that the effort the main Russian effort is in dbas and so they want to have the Reserves from the Ukrainian forces leaving dbas and going to the North and then you are uh threatening the Dumas and that's what's happening currently the Russian are advancing in dbas what are these what is Emanuel mcon talking about what are the French weapons that would be used and that would be used for crossb attacks in fact the only uh long range weapon system we are providing are scalp which are have to be uh carried by an aircraft so in fact uh these SC were already used in creier for example and it's what the UK is roughly yeah it's it's the same Storm Shadow and scaly the same weapon system um so now is talking about sending in in Russian territory as it was launched before in occupied uh in Ukraine occupied territory like r or dbas so that's why he's saying that belgaro for example is uh is the logistic up for for the Russian forces so what he's saying is that you have to fight where the military uh forces are and part of them are in belgar or around belgar this is a red line that's being pushed M clo in a way yes but uh I would remind you the exact words of Emanuel macron especially when uh he spoke at the sbone um he wants to have a strategic ambiguity so he doesn't want to explain exactly the lines and he doesn't uh neither deny nor confirm uh the interpretation of what he said and it's true that now he explains uh that um we cannot help Ukraine by delivering weapon uh if we don't allow Ukraine to hit the original points where it uh it starts from and uh in a way yes it's a new possibility but it doesn't mean that it will be done by Ukraine all right macon's strategic ambiguity drawing a sharp warning of consequences for Western countries that Supply weapons that hit Russian territory Vladimir Putin speaking Tuesday on a trip to usbekistan representatives of nat countries especially in Europe especially in small countries they must be aware of what they are playing with they must remember that this is as a rule a state with a small territory and a very dense population and this is a factor that they should keep in mind before talking about striking deep into Russian territory this is serious stuff we of course are observing and watching this very carefully should we be nervous this is you know the president of nuclear armed Russia making threats what's sounds like not just to Ukraine but uh to NATO allies first of all V Vladimir Putin is uh lying all the time remember before the 24th of February 22 he's not telling the truth anyway and as he was elected in unequal conditions as you know he doesn't have a public opinion who he should be accountable for so first is always lying and second um he was aggressor and uh he he he did escalation and he's always the threatening of nuclear weap weapon or counter attacks so uh we we shouldn't uh believe him and we should establish um a good report of forces George Well I agree completely with what general Tran said but we have to be precise Ukraine has every right to hit Russia while they are in war with Russia and they did it already even Moscow they sending drones and they use all their old Soviet long range missiles but using sculps for the French and these long range missiles yeah it's not they have the right or not the right is who is programming those weapons because those weapons are used to uh hit fix targets and most of the Ukrainian military do not have the capacity to program the hitting point it's military people from NATO were doing it so that's why until now when it's hitting Crea or donbas well Russian are closing their eyes but they perfectly know who is doing that and that's why all the European leaders were pissed off when uh maon blindly said oh yeah it's our guys British and the French who are programming those weapons and that's why the bundestag and Ola Schultz doesn't want to send the Tauruses because they will have to to bring military people will program those missiles and that's the issue because here we will have U an implication of military people from NATO hitting a nuclear country which is Russia which is completely and totally insane so let's bring them weapon that are not but how do you how do you defend K well first uh I'm I'm sorry but uh we have a huge corruption in in Ukraine and where are the defenses we've paid for they're not they nothing it's it's it's a catastrophic that a year the Russian did a huge three line defense when they retried from Kon with during this the the first uh Ukraine counter successful counter offensive but defense have been built built and the same in sui you will have the the same attack because they will continue to stretch the the Ukraine reserves uh soon you all the shellings uh around sui you will have a new offensive around Sumi so the line will be completely stretch and you have you don't have defenses but anyway uh I think from my point of view which is the same like many realistic analyst in USA what is happening now it's insane as y stter being said this is a war of NATO extension and what is going on it's the death of half a million Ukrainian 9 million left the country the country destroyed what what we can have is more deaths and more destruction but we can't have a defat of Russia because it's a nuclear country so what we have in in the future it's maybe a absurd and completely insane nuclear war General Tran we must be very careful with words we are using it's not NATO attacking I I just remind you that NATO is a defensive organization it's French or UK forces bilaterally who are helping a country which has been attacked under rule 51 of the uh un Charter they are authorized to help the country which is attack secondly talking about Russian are striking back the French territory or British territory of course not after two and a half year of fighting in Ukraine Russia was not able to defeat Ukraine how can Ukraine uh Russia face Europe they they they don't have the mean and when we're talking that you can't defeat a nuclear power like uh Russia I just remind you that Russia was defeated in Afghanistan and there was no problem I mean it is the responsibility of Mr Putin who decided to to attack Ukraine and Ukraine has the right to defend itself and European country bilaterally have the right to help Ukraine and that's it and when you are providing weapon system you're not saying don't use there don't use there don't use there and some people are a bit shy about that they don't have to be shy because Putin is not shy so we we have to be strong in front of a man who is strong golier Kraig tell us uh having been back and forth to the front lines uh right now what what's the situation when it comes to uh we' we've talked extensively about the the lack of ammunition more as promised in the days to come uh I wanted to go back on what George kranovich was saying about the defenses that the ukrainians started building probably too late invest probably not enough money in them and a lot of people in Ukraine are asking where are those defenses lines why are they not stronger the fact is that um there have been a lot of reasons I mean to think that there's been corruption um and investigative journalists in Ukraine actually say that in harv region it's particularly bad they can't get any transparent information even about the price that was paid for the concrete they say it's a state secret whereas in other regions there's more transparency which would make us think that there's a particularly bad problem with corruption in harv region but all that being said the Russians opened this front Advanced pretty quickly in the first few days and now they kind of seem to have been stopped with this new front in the north of har so I wouldn't exaggerate too much how much of a problem the lack of these defensive lines is being and of course it's too separate things the lack of defensive lines that are allowing the Russians to advance in various places along the front line and the bombardment of cities like harv because the missiles of course fly over uh the defensive lines and what the and the glided bombs uh particular that are launched from airplanes these um guided Glide bombs the ukrainians would like to shoot down the planes over Russian territory it's not the French um scalps that they would be using to do that they'd like to use uh americanmade Patriot weapons I suppose and uh that's kind of a different question macron was very precise in saying we can let them strike bases inside Russian territory he didn't mention shooting down planes or anything else right and among those who agree with Emanuel M the outgoing NATO Secretary General without naming the United States Yen stoltenberg clearly targeting Washington in remarks he made in an interview with The Economist magazine but uh the the onew punch of MCO Stenberg not enough to sway the Biden Administration there's uh no change to our policy at this point we don't encourage or enable the use of us supplied weapons to strike inside Russia uh I would note that uh that U the the ukrainians have in the p past um defeated imminent air attacks um such as some of the ones that have occurred uh in the last few days on their own since the War Began a lead editorial writer in French broadsheet of record leond uh stating that uh the US just doesn't see this as an existential threat whereas Europe does is this an existential threat what's going on what how do you explain this discrepancy between the French attitude and the American attitude right now yes Europe can die um if um we do not manage to stop this horrible aggression from Russia Russia come could come directly to the Eastern borders of Europe and uh it's Russia is already uh uh putting some creating some problems at the borders of Estonia Finland Lithuania and we could imagine that the next step would be a direct threat of Russia to the to Europe and this is why we have to consider very seriously this rate and of course you heard go Craig saying that American Weaponry can take down planes how do you again do you agree or disagree with the American decision to forbid for the time being the use of its longrange Weaponry uh over the Border in Russia we should prevent escalation that for sure and uh we should um remind the international right uh no civilian should be killed by uh these weapons but again Ukraine has a right to to have a self-defense against this aggression do tank you heard the US position how do you explain him I I explain it by the fact that the the American don't want to face directly Russia they they are supporting uh and the French do I mean we are in Europe European can decide without uh without the agreement of the American when there is threat about Europe and president mcon is very clear about the fact that Europe at a stage should be autonomous in his decision of course currently the defense of Europe is made by NATO with the US the support of Ukraine is made by country individually and by European Union not by NATO and uh by the way what Secretary General of NATO said he had no mandate to to say that I just remind you that he's a civil servant he should only have the words of given by the all country in Europe uh in NATO sorry and nobody G him the right to do that the main explanation is that the American don't agree so I he's living in July so perhaps he feel a bit free to say what he wants but he was wrong to say that it's not the position of NATO it's the position of different country the French have this position the UK has this position the American don't have this position and that's it I I mentioned at the outset George K manovich how uh when mol was speaking Tuesday uh standing next to him was the German chancellor who nodded in agreement but didn't commit to doing the same thing with German longrange weapons yeah of course for the reason I said prior to this and for the reason you said because it's a coalition it's complicated and the bundestag voted again so he cannot do what he wants not like our president who really I'm sorry is is is an insane person he almost started a civil war in New calonia without listening to anybody saying don't do that in the way you will to do it he said don't care I will do it I'm the boss it will be and catastrophe full catastrophe so is the same here is taking decisions that are very dangerous and um Mr Craig know perfectly yeah Russian are not going further in gar but they sent fewer uh battalions without uh uh tanks uh 50,000 at least soldiers are waiting as a reserve in in belur and they moving as you said clearly on on the dumbass uh front uh it's it's a huge problem and they can push further in on kov with the K with the reserves and what they could not do in the first phase of the war because they attacked a huge country with less than 200,000 soldiers as you know now we are with the the Ukrainian intelligence saying it's half a million soldiers plus 300,000 is coming you imagine the power that's coming to Ukraine and we are I'm sorry to say that because we have to say it we are unable it's not that we don't want we sending what we can we are unable to send weapons in 91 in France we had 1,300 tanks we have 226 what can we do and the same on everything especially ammunitions see from where you are in ke how does it look when it turns to when Ukraine and we've seen the president this week uh go sign bilateral deals in places like Spain Belgium uh how does it seem when they when they look to their to to to NATO allies all seems extremely worrying because uh people who you know have a better knowledge of the situation with the arms industry and the political situation in Western allies of Ukraine know that George kosanovich is to a large degree right there isn't the capacity to give Ukraine the help that may very well be needed I mean when you talk to people what always ends up coming up in conversations is that you know hopefully the Russians will screw up somehow or hopefully something will happen in Russia or some unexpected black one event will sort of change the Dynamics of what's going on otherwise it does look extremely difficult to see how Ukraine can get together enough manpower and Firepower to really push back this Russian offensive on the other hand it's encouraging that the Russians aren't doing better I still think that it's surprising and encouraging that they aren't already advancing um faster than they are and the other thing that I'd say is that seeing from Ukraine the idea of the nuclear threat and the idea that any kind of escalation is possible that's just the thing that you know ukrainians generally find very exasperating because they just don't believe Russia would use nuclear weapons for various reasons and various arguments that are put forward and they don't believe any other kind of escalation is possible Russia is already trying as hard as it can basically now there's another controversy in this country and that's over boots on the ground on the eve of macon's remarks uh in Germany the Ukrainian military thanking France perhaps prematurely perhaps not for sending military instructors to help with the deployment of the military hardware we've been talking about Siobhan silk has that story around 50,000 Ukrainian soldiers have received training in EU countries but as yet no Ally has sent instructors to Ukraine to conduct drills on the recruits home soil on Tuesday EU foreign Chief Joseph borell said member states were split on the prospect France's government was the first to suggest it might send boots on the ground on the telegram messaging app on Monday the commander-in-chief of Ukraine's Armed Forces announced that France was indeed preparing to send military instructors to Ukraine Alexander sirki said he'd already signed the documents that would allow the first French instructors to visit Ukrainian training centers and get acquainted with their infrastructure and Personnel but the French defense Ministry later declined to confirm a deployment was imminent saying only that it was being studied Ukraine then backtracked stating the deployment of trainers was still being discussed with France and other countries the confusion comes as Ukrainian forces have been struggling to cope with renewed Russian pressure on the front line on his EU visit this week President Vladimir zinski has got new pledges for military aid but while Hardware is one thing Manpower is another Ukraine's counter offensive continues to be hampered by a severe shortage of trained soldiers General Tran are the instructors coming as a deal been signed what do we know uh probably uh the agreement have been signed uh you know chief of Defense staff the French def chief of Defense staff was in in KF so he was discussing with the headquarter so they are organizing the fact that there will be instructor coming in uh in Ukraine uh but the decision is not um taken probably the Ukrainian were a bit fast on saying that it this will happen I think we'll have the news next week by the president himself um the fact is that uh when you are delivering equipment you are delivering training previously when we were delivering Cesar guns for example the people go were going in con which is very far from Ukraine it took a long time it was difficult to organize that the best way is to provide the equipment I just remind you that we've got to provide 78 more Caesar weapons to Ukraine you provide the instructure in C in Ukraine uh then it will allow Ukrainian instructor to go fighting and so the French will be there to help TR yeah cuz where does that instruction take place near the front line not near the front line does this constitute you can't train Soldier close to the front line you've got to train soldier at a at a at a place where is not on the fighting you need to to be a back from there but second point you've got equipment who have been on the ground for two years and now you've got to maintain lot of this equipment if you put people who are used to maintain this French equipment then the Ukrainian will go and fight on the front line so that's probably what is organized and and I guess that everything is organized to do that the decision has been not put forward so we'll see that next week probably M clo is this Mission creep you know the like little by little without knowing it the France is directly involved in the war maybe a first word um is this war is hybrid with a battle on Earth in the air on sea there is a h war and there is a war of information and uh I do not like when Russian propaganda is relayed uh on the French Soul that's my uh first point um of course little by little uh uh Russia is making progress and Ukraine lost a lot of time waiting for the aid from the United States and the ammunition from the European States and now they are helped by North Korea by China by Iran and they have reconstituted their troops their stock of ammunitions so now we have to be a very uh very rapid and uh it's not little by little it's that we have uh to help um Ukraine in a rapid way and to be active to hear General T say it it's not Mission creep if you sending instructors and they're not next to the front line well first we know that we have troops on the ground British French American Canadian but okay it's not fighting units the question is fighting units or not fighting units that's it uh and what do you mean by on the ground though well people are helping in the in the general staffs people are doing intelligence well that's fine or some special forces it's okay it's it's not real fighting units from a NATO country against Russian troops now the the the problem is well why not to do what you said fine let's do it but the problem is what Geral Tron said is that the first two years of war the ukrainians they had the Weaponry the ammunitions from the old Soviet system which was their army plus all the Eastern country supported them sending all almost everything they had in stocks all all the the old system Soviet uh Weaponry system now it's destroyed so they have to fight with what we give them and we are not able to give them what is needed not but because you don't want you want Macon wants every everybody in Europe wants but because it's not there plus you have you had one uh logic of logistics and maintenance which uh the Russian they have now on the Ukrainian side it's different Logistics different maintenance chain it's very complicated when you run a war to have so many different weapon system and not enough so that's that's the insanity you can consider it's it's Russian propaganda but then Kenan who's dead Kissinger who dead mam who still here and all the realistic Americans are doing Russian propaganda it's just mats at the end if you don't have the proper mean to conduct a war plus the Manpower then it's a catastrophe so Domin TR Miro and George kovich agreeing that Russia has been able to turn to a war economy or had helped in doing so faster than the ukrainians now though we get back to the role of the United States who are trying to put the pressure on China yeah sure uh in Russia it's very easy when you are leading the country as it is you don't ask the citizen you just take the ision and you have a a huge um history about having a big army and lot of weapons so it's very easy to do that anyway they were obliged to ask North Korea and Iran to produce weapon system because they have not enough uh the problem is that probably initially Putin didn't think that he will be in such that sort of War um so now he's asking China to help him and China as usual is also lying like Mr Putin is saying okay I'm not providing weapon system but in fact I'm providing small spots which are used to build weapon system uh so in fact we are in a position currently in 2024 after the offensive of 2020 uh second second on the Russian side and then on the Ukrainian side just remind that the Russian were uh obliged to to go back East we are in a sort of balance the Russian are St it yes exactly the Russian are advancing but very small I mean I think the aim of Mr Putin is to conquer the old dbas and then to say these oats which are an access to Russia I'm able to Sol them to save them sorry and that's the only thing it can happen he can't invade Ukraine now he doesn't have the means and he know that after invasion you have to occupied and is not able to occupy uh uh Ukraine so after having wanted to invade Ukraine in 2022 now it just want to keep what you've got with all these oblets occupied C Craig the objective here that's wishful thinking unfortunately I think that Vladimir Putin wants to you know reassert influence over Ukraine and stop Ukraine from being a democratic Western looking country and one way or another will continue to try to do that perhaps yes at some point there'll be some kind of a ceasefire and Russia remains in control of the parts of Ukraine that it currently occupies only uh but that won't be the end of it I mean that's generally the view held in Ukraine you know that if it was I think a lot of people in Ukraine if they just giving Russia the territory that it currently occupies and maybe a bit more would really solve the problem then a lot more people would be in favor of doing that even though of course I mean it would be absolutely terrible for all the ukrainians um living in those territories who don't want to be ruled by Russia and all of those who fled those territories in are dreaming of going back yeah on that point golier uh this week uh uh when we saw Vladimir zalinski uh making those rounds uh inking that bilateral deal with Spain uh going to Belgium which promised down the road f-16s uh zalinski in Brussels urging Joe Biden to attend his peace Summit in Switzerland in two weeks time saying if the US president's a no- show quote it'll be like applauding Putin personally applauding and doing so standing why did he use that kind of strong language about about uh what is going to be a talk shop Conference in June I guess it's quite a long shot you know a big bet for vadir zalinski to make using that kind of language when it's absolutely not clear that Joe Biden will attend that Summit I think the latest signals from the United States were more um along the lines of representation at a lower level than the president a lot of heads of state though in Europe in particular heads of government have said that they will attend let's be clear it's not really a peace Summit the ukrainians are calling it a peace Summit and they've got an argument for calling it that because basically they think there will never be real peace unless we get the Russians to withdraw from our territory and they want to get as many countries as possible on board with more or less that line I think that there will be negotiations at this Summit and the final communic might be something rather different but it's about uh Ukraine showing how many countries in the world support it Summit and that's why it's crucially important really for its most important Ally the United States to be represented at the High level but unfortunately I'm not sure that it looks like happening so zalinski might lose a lot of face you know having having laid down the gauntlet in this way if Biden then doesn't attend Mar clo that Summit what's it about I think there are two uh hypothesis uh either um Ukraine on the front line Remains the Frozen conflict and we know that Russia is used to have a frozen conflict either there is peace uh with a peace signed with a concession and I hope that we will able to understand first the targets of Russia because it's not clear for the moment the first Target was to invade uh KF and Ukraine and to prevent Ukraine from being a member of the European Union but now the targets are not clear and uh when we will understand the targets of Russia uh I hope we will be able to have a peace and uh with the most um possible people around the table we know perfectly the target of Russia they have been sent written in many occasion even before the start of the war as people who know what's happened uh know perfectly by the way you have an agreement uh almost an agreement is a talks in peace talks in Istanbul between Ukraine and Russia in March April 2022 that we broke and the the main idea who broke who NATO it was released in Figaro in W journal in inelt we have this uh the so wait there was the main target of the Russian is neutrality I remember the peace talks but I don't remember there being any kind of a deal that was inside it was not far from it and that's and it's when Mr uh Boris Johnson went to ke and said no no you continue the war we will crush Russian economy we didn't Crush Russian economy ukrainians continued and firmly they thought they did even better than we expected from them resisting the Russians but we didn't crush the Russian economy and we are at the same situation and and I do not agree with you there is a third solution and that's the catastrophe it's either the Russian they continue advancing and I'm perfectly sure because it's written in their Doctrine and what they saying the Russians it's if Ukraine remains well the the if the we continue to to bring Ukraine into NATO they will go until the DPP River and maybe they will have some problem with the populations but they will do what Stalin did they will just push those who are not willing to leave under Russian rule to the west and bring back the all the Russian ukrainians which are 8 to n million people in Russia back in the new occupied territory which is kov uh sui zaporah and Odessa even Putin said it Odessa is a Russian city what do you mean when Putin said that he mean that he want to take it don't believe it will no I mean that he wants to take it completely how can you say for example that Putin is saying that Odessa is Russian I've got I've got people in Odessa from my family there they were speaking Russian they had a Russian passport they have burned their Russian passport and say no longer Russia and Russia the Russian army was not able to go behind nikol they were not able to go to Essa they will not go to cross another time the nip River and what what but going back to a more serious problem which is the the Geneva meeting my impression is because Russia will not be there uh Mr Biden will probably not be there there will be discussion with Ukrainian to go how far we will go where we will start our discussion between us who are allied with uh Ukraine before going to speak with Russia and that that's mean that probably probably there will be a sort of agreement between Western Country how far can we go are you sure that the international there's a big NATO Summit coming up in July isn't that what that's for oh the NATO Summit is something else I mean the same NATO Summit as you know uh NATO is increasing his its capability in Eastern Europe with 300,000 troops right so so getting everyone to sing on the same page from the same himy sheet sorry mixing my metaphors uh that they don't need Geneva for that no no no I mean you split between the NATO Summit which is something else it's to defend Europe right on the border of the current NATO uh thing and The Summit in Geneva which is a discussion about how far we will go to support Ukraine in what Ukraine wants to achieve at the end of the war and that that is very important because in 2024 we can say are you sure that we'll go back to the international border with the with Crea and dumbass back in Ukraine or we will not be able to do that and so we need to have another purpose another objective and that that will be really the discussion in in Geneva that's my guess galver KAG um it's not in Geneva just to be precise it's in some small Resort place near uh luzern yes sorry for for being pedantic about that but nice city sorry and apart from that what's the question fr the question is what looking forward to uh to to yeah to getting people to agree on on what's the plan for Ukraine with Ukraine uh I mean it doesn't look like in in a way on the surface of things it doesn't look like a great idea for Ukraine to hold this Summit and call it a peace Summit and then you know be disappointed by not having as as many people attended as they kind of uh build it as but that said if I may goer if I may goer uh vomir zinski is going to have a chance to make his pitch in person next week he's been invited to commemorations of D-Day that Joe Biden will be attending yes and by the way there are a lot of rumors in Ukraine at the moment that um something will be announced about um French Ukrainian uh cooperation meeting in Normandy but just going back to The Summit in Switzerland some people are still arguing that it's actually a pretty clever um you know trick on the behalf of the Ukrainian diplomacy to basically have a peace plan that's currently being labeled the zalinsky formula which he actually outlined in late 2022 you know which is basically peace can only be achieved if the Russians pull all their forces out of Ukraine for the sort of plan that Ukraine's allies have signed up to being no longer the zalinsky formula but a formula that as many countries as possible have signed up to and it's a way of sort of Shoring up their alliances and making their case which is you know despite everything uh that uh that George kov has been saying you know is is that it's hard to imagine any kind of Peace if Ukraine doesn't win this war despite the fact that it looks so hard for that to be achieved at the current state of things golier CAG many thanks for being with us from ke for this Edition I want to thank as well M clo Dominique Tran George kovich thank you for being with us here in the France 24 debate [Music]

Channel: FRANCE 24 English

Views: 120,356

Keywords: Macron, Nato, Putin, Russia, Ukraine, Zelensky

Id: 6AeOk_7_9Kk

Length: 43min 30sec (2610 seconds)

Published: Wed May 29 2024