Oneness Pentecostalism ("Jesus Only"): Part 2

all right let's start with part two of oneness pentecostalism we've dealt with a few of their doctrines now we get to one of the defining things in their theology and that's modalism modalism there's several different names form it can also be called sub alien ISM Sibelius was a priest and was excommunicated for this doctrine of monism back in 220 ad so this doctrine is definitely not anything that's new now it's new for a group since when the 1916 nor the 1913 camp-meeting into this a Tory Arroyo Seco and they put together all these other doctrines that we're talking about but the doctrine of modalism itself is definitely nowhere no are new so as I mentioned before modalism is the idea that there is only one person and God they believe in the oneness of God they talk about that all day I'm the oneness of God they don't think Trinitarians believe in the oneness of God they're convinced that we were more like try theists but for them it's the oneness of God and as one God he operates in different persons Father Son and Holy Spirit now there are some ones Pentecostal groups like one in Ethiopia where they have a different view of the Holy Spirit almost like the Jehovah's Witnesses do where the Holy Spirit isn't actually a person of God but God's active force out there somewhere but in all most mainstream oneness Pentecostals would see modalism the way that we're going to be talking about so you have one person who acts in three different modes so the father in he acts as the father in planning Redemption Jesus in executing Redemption and well I should say not Jesus but the son of God because Jesus is the name of all of them son in in acting out Redemption and but he is the Holy Ghost in applying the redemption to people so looking at some of the verses that they would use to talk about this to you Colossians 2:9 the Bible says in Christ all the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form in Christ all the fullness of deity so therefore there cannot be another person the father being another person and the son being another person because in Christ is the fullness of deity does that mean that the Holy Ghost and the father are inside of him that they're distinct persons you know it doesn't make any sense and this is of course I'm talking as well as a oneness pentecostalism one is Pentecostal here john 14:9 through eleven you have Jesus talking saying things like he that has seen me has seen the father I am in the father and the father is in me you can see how that would lead them to believe okay well you know if you see the father you see him therefore if he's in the father with father's in him they're the same person in Isaiah 9:6 says and his name shall be called wonderful counsellor the mighty God the everlasting father the Prince of Peace and we all know that's talking about Jesus right and it says that he will be the everlasting father is his name so Jesus is the father according to this first John 1:1 in the beginning was the word and the Word was with God and the Word was God now we know this is talking about Jesus because in verse 14 it says that and the word became flesh and dwelt among us so we all agree this is talking about Jesus but the oneness argument is that if if the Trinity were truth and the word God here would have to mean two different things but it's just the same word so how can it mean something to different things because what with the one is view it's the same thing so Jesus was in the beginning and he is God he was got then and he is God now you looking back at these arguments first of all with the Colossians 2:9 this is not saying what they're trying to say that the fullness of deity lives in him and bodily form that means that there can't be any other person outside of them any more than if I were to say for you all the fullness of humanity dwells in you does that mean there's no other persons that are fully human no this is Colossians 2:9 is telling us that Jesus is fully God that's what's important about it that's what it's telling us Jesus is fully God so there is there can be someone else who is called God John 14 remember he that you seen you seeing the father I am in the father the father is in me well if you keep reading up to verse 20 this is and at that day you shall know that I am in my father and he and me and I in you well if the first part means that Jesus is the father that means we're the father also if you take the logic to that extreme so no he's not saying that he is the father any more than you see in the world of father Isaiah 9:6 and his name shall be called wonderful counselor the mighty God the everlasting father now I haven't had a conversation with one's Pentecostal on this yet with this verse but I really hope it comes up someday because my first response after thinking about this verse is to say but the word father's the title isn't it isn't that what one has been a costless ought to say the word father's the title no one when we talk how baptism in the name of Jesus you don't do baptism in the name of the Father and Son Holy Spirit because of other titles well then why is this here saying that his name is going to be the father this thing's not the father what this means in the Hebrew is it saying that he is the father of eternity so it's not of the word everlasting is modifying father in a different way than that they're thinking he is the father as the attorney he is the creator you know talked about in John 1 and the Colossians 1 everything that's been created has been created by Jesus and that's what it's saying here he is the mighty God he is the creator the everlasting father father of eternity and then their idea about John 1:1 and a lot of these arguments I got from the the President of the United United Pentecostal Church International and this is one that that that he had used which is interesting that well if the Trinity was true then God here would mean two different things my response to that is yes it does mean two different things in fact grammatically it must mean two different things because it's saying the Word was with God and in the Word was God and if that's not clear there's a interesting way to illustrate this look back at Genesis chapter 5 has nothing to do with Jesus being God but stay with me here with this this is cool in the day when God created man he made him in the likeness of God he created them male and female and he blessed them and named them man now interesting in this verse there's a plurality and a singular Ness going on look at the singleness here created man made him man at the N single but there's also a plurality male and female them and made them so with this idea it was in Hebron by the way the word man and atom is the same word and so you we think of this as mankind created mankind but in Hebrew no it was just the word man so this is John our John 1:1 we could kind of take the way it's written and Genesis 5 with it in the garden was the woman and the woman was with the man and the woman was man so let's say in the same thing almost the Genesis 5 did so I've got a parallel going on there all right now what would happen if I were to tweak this just a little bit let's put the word a there in the garden was the woman and the woman was with the man and the woman was a ban could can you do it with what that changes yeah that would change it quite a bit because now the woman's a man instead of mankind so the word man is used in a different way in this one verse just like they're saying God is used in a different way if the Trinity were true well how about we change it to the word though in the garden was the woman the woman was with the man and the woman was the man now everything the woman is the man is there the same thing and that's the way the ones Pentecostals are going to try to read John 1:1 but it's not written with the definite article uh it's just written plainly and the Word was God so you must understand this verse the way it's written grammatically the word God is used two different ways here and you must take it that there is Jesus is God and he's not all that God is according to the way the food the versus structure further on more more things to look at to see that the Father Son and Holy Spirit are not the same person the father loves the son he sends the Son and the son returns to the Father there's a relationship between two beings here that show us there has to be more than one person there so much of the New Testament would make no sense if he was the same person John 8 is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true I am one of their witness of myself and the father that sent me bear witness of me if he is the father this verse makes no sense because he says the law it's written in your law the testimony you have to have the testimony of two men and who the two men him and his father know if the law meant that well it just as long as there's somebody in two modes what everybody operates in at least two modes telling some of us farm with too many modes I know with your job how many modes did you have a holy cow this first makes no sense in a oneness view this is a very difficult one for them to get past there are different persons and they fulfill the law by giving testimony to them Jesus prayed our Father which art in heaven hallowed be thy name so Jesus prays to the Father is he praying to himself it's the obvious question no well he's teaching them how to pray so maybe he's just given an example but there's other times in Scripture where he is praying to God he is communicating to another person and a person is communicating back and of course the best one is when Jesus was baptized the father spoke in heaven and the Spirit descended as a dove so we have all three of them there now when is Pentecostal answered that to that might be and I was asked this once do you believe that God could appear at the same time in two different locations like and see Jesus appears at the same time in two different places on there well yeah I believe that well could he appear in the same place at the same time well why not and so there the argument then is trying to say that well that's what he's doing here he's appearing at the same place at the same time in the different modes the problem though is if that was what good's going on there it's deceiving the people he wouldn't appear and then act as if he is not the same person so there's a problem with saying that he is that that's the same person functioning in the different roles they're in full view in public if that was the case Jesus should have made a point well by the way that was me who was coming down when I spoke while I was in the water or something like that because God has given a huge if model of says who God has given a huge misunderstanding of his character in nature in that one narrative there in the Bible our fourth point do tongues prove spirit filling for salvation with one us Pentecostals there's steps first of all you need to believe and you need to repent that's part of it and then you need to have that ISM in Jesus's name so not just baptize but in Jesus's name and then you'll be filled with the Holy Ghost and then you will speak in tongues speaking in tongues is proof that you are filled with the Holy Ghost so this is the process that happens when you're saved now it happens sometimes though that somebody will believe in repent they get baptized in Jesus's name and then they don't start speaking in tongues so why not the person is not saved according to one's Pentecostal view because they didn't speak in tongues see now this is where it this is very different from classic garden-variety Pentecostalism what was the SEM beliefs of gods and other folks like that there they would never say that that oh you know you're not saved if you didn't start speaking in tongues but one is Pentecostals yeah you're not staying and if that happens to you you're baptized you come out of the water you don't start speaking in tongues well maybe did you not really repent did you really not believe they call a person like this a chronic seeker they will over and over again be crying out to God like what am I not believing what have I not repented from and ultimately might may even get burned out and leave the faith completely I don't know but this is the process it has to happen this way you have to speak in tongues after you're baptized the order cannot be reversed you don't start speaking in tongues and then get baptized and then get it's this is the process and you can see it follows along with their their favorite passage acts 2:38 repent be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and to them they tie you to the Holy Ghost with speaking in tongues and they'll use this as these term synonymously filling of the Spirit baptism of the Holy Ghost to give to the Holy Ghost they're all the same thing so when you get this you speak in tongues and that's the evidence that you're now saved oops scene 17 these things shall follow them to believe in my name they shall cast out Devils they shall speak with new tongues so this is sighing that of god's followers that we will speak in new tongues acts 2:14 then would be seen as the fulfillment of it they were all filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance so you see when God's people become God's people let me have the leave in faith and all this they speak in different tongues when the Holy Ghost comes upon them so that they are filled with the Holy Ghost and they speak in tongues Acts chapter 10 the Holy Ghost falls on the Gentiles who then speak in tongues according to the passage so therefore you speak in tongues when you give foot filled with all the ghost acts 1986 after baptism in Jesus's name the Holy Ghost came upon the Ephesians who then spoke in tongues so you can see this is a pattern in Acts when people believe and they're baptized they speak in tongues first Corinthians 4 14:18 says that Paul spoke in tongues now we don't have a passage this is it's Paul spoke in tongues when he was first saved and was baptized in Jesus's name however we do know that he did speak in tongues because he talked about it in first Corinthians 14 so that's the belief or oneness pentecostals so what's a response to this first of all put here on the bottom the order that that that they line out just so we can remember this is the order has to be believe baptism spirit baptism and tongues okay that's what we have to remember and let's see what happens first of all mark 16:17 these are the scientists shall follow them that believe in my name they shall cast out Devils they shall speak with new tongues well this could have been in reference to Pentecost with what we the other verse we read in chapter 2 of Acts maybe that was a pro fulfillment of it or maybe it's the gift of tongues in 1st Corinthians that is not tied to salvation it can be completely certain on that but it doesn't line out the whole system of believe that ties their baptism in tongues so we're gonna look at just a bunch of passages and see if it fits their outline they tried to throw a bow some passages to show see look what happens it doesn't always happen this way in Acts chapter 2 that we quoted earlier there was 120 of the people in the room it tells us that in Shepard that there is 120 and this is that they were filled with the Holy Ghost then they spoke in tongues but it didn't say they were baptized I mean was there a big baptism service right then I mean tongues of fire came in on their heads and they all spoke in tongues well did they run and jump in the water first why didn't say that well I don't think it happened that there's no room in the narrative to put it there maybe it did maybe that's an argument from silence but as we move on we don't you won't you will see that not all these are from silence acts 2:14 through 41 as a submarine here Peter preaches tells them to repent be baptized for the remission of your sins and you'll receive the Holy Ghost three thousand people are saved they have to repent which we would say that's the same thing as belief repent believe seeing same thing different sides of the same coin or something I talked about the Holy Ghost doesn't say anything about tongues acts 3 through 4 for the Peter preaches faith hild this man he tells everybody repent so your sins may be blotted out and about 5,000 people are saved doesn't tell them to get baptized why not if this if this is a requirement baptism why don't they do it and did they speak in tongues we don't know he doesn't say acts 5:29 332 Peter before the High Council you crucified Jesus God grants repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins doesn't say anything about baptism spirit baptism tongues acts 8 14 through 17 Peter and John go to Samaria people who had received the Word of God he goes to them they have believed on the Word of God and had been baptized then the Apostles lay their hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost so how can the Holy Ghost didn't come on them and they believed and were baptized that doesn't fit the pattern on the bottom here does it they believed they were baptized and then they had their hands laid on them and then they received the Holy Ghost still doesn't tell us if they spoke in tongues ax8 don't talk to ethiopia and they read about jesus' death at ethiopian once baptism and Philip says yes if you believe I can no baptism well yeah that ISM but it doesn't say anything about spirit filling in tongues acts 9 Paul believes it's implied that he believes anyway and in is lays hands on Paul and he's filled with the Holy Ghost and then he is baptized so he's filled with the Holy Ghost before baptism that really throws a wrench into the works doesn't it because now it's not just implied that well they're not saying anything about tongues there that shows that their formula isn't working somebody is filled with the Holy Ghost at the improper time Acts chapter 10 Peter preaches Gentiles believe and then the Holy Ghost fell on them and then they speak in tongues after that verse 47 Peter says can any man forbid water that those should not be baptized which have received the Holy Ghost as well as wing again they get the Holy Ghost and then they get baptized shows there's a problem with their system x19 Paul finds people baptized unto repentance by John they get baptized in Jesus's name always hands on them the Holy Spirit comes and then they speak in tongues so this one is fitting their system the only difference is Paul lays his hands on them for them to speak in tongues this happens in two other places in the book of Acts where hands are laid on them and then all the ghosts come so it makes me wonder why don't we why don't we then teach that you have to lay your hands on because that's the way they did it well it's not always consistent throughout the books of that book of Acts when the Holy Ghost comes when people are filled in connection with baptism it's not consistent anywhere as we can see through this act 16 Paul and Silas to the jailer believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved and the house doesn't say you have to be baptized there is no clear pattern as I just said in acts for receiving the Holy Ghost so the way that the the oneness argument put it when I described before is really out of line with what's going on in the book of Acts and even if it was that way in the book of Acts it doesn't mean that we're commanded that way unless it says this is what God says this is a narrative telling us this is how it happened not a command telling us this is the way it has to happen now for our last section on holiness one is Pentecostals come from so the background of some of the early ones Pentecostals were in the Wesley and the holiness movement and they carry some of that until to today God wants you to be holy and it almost sounds bad if they were to ask you also do you believe in holiness a God want you to leave holy I mean who's gonna say no God doesn't care if I live holy or not so you know that puts this one down right there oh yeah he wants us to be holy but what do they mean by holiness no TV where we're going to look at a list of a few things here no television some maybe no radio which might not be a bad thing you know what a bad stuff out there that I watch sometimes for men your hair needs to be cut short okay you'll pass here in public and long sleeves so no shorts and long sleeves women similarly don't cut your hair so it's opposite with them actually long hair you don't cut your hair your dress has to be a certain length and we'll get into that issue how long your dress has to be no jewelry and cosmetics are frowned upon so this is holding the standards that you have to live up to as one's Pentecostal so if you're one it's going to cost well you get baptized in Jesus name you speak in tongues and if you don't start adhering to these things well there's going to be a problem in the congregation why are you not doing this and can you be a good upstanding member feliz that they would use to support this Deuteronomy chapter 22 verse 5 says the woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man neither shall a man put on a woman's garment for all the dew are an abomination unto the God so women are not supposed to be dressed like men first Peter three three wives whose adorning let it not be that of outward adoring or plating of the hair of wearing gold or putting on apparel so jewelry things like that in like manner for first Timothy to in like manner also that women adorn themselves in modest apparel with shamefacedness and sobriety now with broided hair or gold or pearls or costly array now if somebody called me on this and they said oh you did a title that's what's to be braided now it's King James it's braided you want to know what that means look it up into another version so women know jewelry you know long hair that kind of thing so response to one is teaching first of all with the women are not supposed to be dressing like a man and a man's not supposed to a dress like women that's a culturally based thing how about this guy here this this guy is from Scotland he's wearing the kilt which to me looks like a skirt or a dress right so in his culture it's okay to dress like this because men dress like this it's a culturally basic thing so I remember I was a student at Moody Bible Institute when they made a big change on campus and they said that whether women students can now wear pants to class they used to have to wear skirts and when I was a student they changed that rule like all know were you know falling into oblivion word where we going to get rid of inerrancy of the Bible next word letting women had wear pants that's what men wear well not in a culture of America anymore yeah and the fifty years ago definitely maybe even twenty years ago more often but now in our culture it's not like that in another culture here this is Jackie Chan from Shanghai noon when he comes to America he's wearing this outfit at one point and he meets up with the American Indians who named him and who fights in dress because to them this was addressed this is how women were dressed well not in Jackie Chan's culture in China I think it's where he was from this is how he would dress then so these are culturally based things women who wear pants and that doesn't mean they're dressing like a man in our culture that's how women dress so you're not going to say that this is a holiness requirement from God based on how you what kind of pants you wear shorts or whatever and also the first Peter 3:1 the verse after it says but let it let it be the hidden man of the heart and that which is not corruptible even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit so when it's saying in verse 3 whose adorning let it not be that about weird adorning of plaiting a pair they don't like for a woman don't let your beauty would just be that which is on the outside but look at the inside I don't think this is a prohibition against wearing certain jewelry or doing whatever to your hair but the important factor is what's going on inside of your heart and that was the same thing with first Timothy chapter 2 when you look at verse 10 it says but which becometh women professing godliness with good works so verse 9 in context it's not just saying you know don't wear gold and pearl or costly ray no focus on the person on the inside that's what's most important now the big problem with the holiness with their holiness teaching on this with with dresses I I mentioned the dress lengths I think how long does the dress have to be does it have to touch your ankles can you show a kneecap does it have to be below the kneecap each individual once Pentecostal church will have a different idea and you have to kind of go by what the pastor goes by so if the pastor thinks that things should be dragging on the ground guess what all the women better have their dresses dragging on the ground because that is the standard and it's set by the pastor know that becomes just a weird legalistic problem now that when the pastor has a certain idea everybody has to follow after it or jewelry is wearing a wedding ring okay I heard what I heard one one this Pentecostal pastor say that if you wear a wedding ring you're going to hell really where's that in the Bible no it's not in the Bible someone who spent a costal pastors would say yeah wedding ring is okay and maybe a wristwatch nothing besides that no earrings no whatever see now they're following man's rules and if you notice everything that we're talking about from their perspective is outward things not inward when we talk about holiness and that God wants us to be holy we need to be thinking about our inside like these verses in context you're telling us that is what true holiness is about is your heart and its desire to love and follow after God not in how you dress not on what's on the outside that we just clean ourselves up and try to make ourselves look good in front of others and be acceptable to the pastor and others around us is our heart desire it's our heart that changes and that's what we need to focus in on as Christians so anyway that wraps up the second part here thank you all again for coming out and I hope this has been a blessing to

Channel: Tim Martin

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Keywords: Tim Martin, CFAR, Oneness Pentecostalism, Jesus Only, Modalism, Trinity, UPCI, Bible

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Length: 32min 19sec (1939 seconds)

Published: Thu May 25 2017