Can you lose or leave your Salvation?

can you lose your salvation what about leaving your salvation that's what when I talk about today's program let's dive in [Music] [Music] hello and welcome back to sociology 101 today we have dr. David Allen on our program who will bring on in just a second but first I want to kind of give a little introduction of what we want to talk about today with regard to the assurance of salvation can you lose your salvation some people think you can't lose it but you can believe it and we're going to talk about some of that we're talking about some of the proof texts most especially out of Hebrews chapter 6 in today's program now when it comes to the idea of security I think that it's impossible to have security in our salvation unless you believe and affirm the trustworthiness of the one you have a relationship with you must I think believe that God desires your salvation that he truly wants what's best for you that he he actually loves you and that he isn't oh he's not looking for a way to cut you off he actually wants you to be saved I think that's essential for a true security as the trustworthiness of God for example I know this may be a crude analogy and and hopefully it translates well but in my marriage if you were to ask me do you believe that you have a relationship with Laura flowers my wife I would say absolutely I believe I have a relationship that's genuine that's real love based relationship between my wife and I one because I believe my wife is a trustworthy woman I believe she's genuine I believe she desires the best for me I believe that she wants what's good for me and all those kinds of things I believe that about her I believe in that she has a good character she's a good person and I believe our relationship is genuine and real and I don't base that just upon a you know some memory of what happened in 1997 when we walked the aisle at First Baptist Church in Dallas though that was a special moment and that was something that we would cherish we have on video we can watch it and those kinds of things my assurance of my relationship with my wife is not really based upon some fading memory of something that happened years ago it's based upon an ongoing continual relationship that I have with her today for children together I'm texting and calling even today you know my relationship with her is continuing and therefore my assurance is not based upon a fading memory but upon a genuine continued relating with this woman named Laura and it's also based upon her being a genuine person of character that she's good and what do I mean by that if for example somebody came to me which I know this would never happen but this is again a sub positional argument if somebody came to me and showed me a video proving to me without any question whatsoever that my wife was actually a person who had many different husbands and she had a track record of duping her husbands into thinking she really loved them but she really didn't love some of them and she used them and got what she wanted for her own pleasure but then dumped some and has nothing to do with them anymore if somebody could show me that Laura flowers had a track record a character who willingly did that to people use them for her own good but didn't really love them then all all that I know about Laura would be just shattered and I couldn't have assurance that our relationship was real anymore because the goodness of her character as I know her would be called into question I would begin to wonder okay if she's the type of woman who would use a man pretend as if you know they were in real relationship make me believe as we if we were a real relationship when she really did not want what was best for me she really didn't want me to be her husband she didn't really want me to love and have relationship with her but she was just using me for her own pleasure in her own good and her plan was from the very beginning to dump me and did not have anything to do with me then everything about the relationship would come into question because her trustworthiness her good character would come into question for me now why do I bring that up well when you're having these issues when you're having to debate through these issues and you've got people who believe and teach that God does not solve if ik allele of all people and does not really want the best for all people and that in fact he does cause some people as John Calvin and others argue to believe in him in part for a time but really only for temporary time what he calls effervescent faith I believe it is or effervescent grace where they come to demonstrate some fruits of the spirit and seeming follow God but they fall away because God just give him a temporary kind of faith and he's using them to bring about his own glory but really he doesn't love them really doesn't want what's best for him he's chosen them as a vessel for destruction then if you believe God is the type of God who would do that to somebody then you can't help but think what if he's doing that to me what if I am one of those people he has chosen for destruction and in fact John Calvin even talks about how dreadful that kind of a thought is and there's quotes matter of fact that's just reading through John Linux book that has many quotes from Calvinist who talk about this dreadfulness of uncertainty and one of the quotes was talking about how a Calvinist may sincerely believe and teach that you cannot fall away from salvation he really cannot certainly believe that he has ever saved you can't ever know whether you're truly elect if you believe that God does do that kind of thing to some people you can't you can't know for certain until you get to heaven that you're not a person who's possibly been chosen to believe that you are saved when you really aren't for a certain amount of time for his own good pleasure and his own purposes and his own will to bring about his own glory he's maybe using you to think that you're a Christian maybe even to think you're a pastor and that you're really doing God's work but sometime later you're going to end up by banding the faith because he's chosen you for that end and if that's the case if he does that to people then how can you possibly know maybe he hasn't done that to you and that can become a very troubling feeling of a very troubling doctrine as you can imagine and so that's some of the things we're going to talk about and try to understand these things and before I play this interview that I had with dr. Allen and going through this I want to first thank our sponsors as it approaches Christmastime you may be thinking of a gift that you'd like to give for somebody I want to recommend to you James Avery artisan jewelry you can find more information at James Avery com I wear a James Avery ring my wife gave this to me and it's a great witnessing tool a lot of people ask me about my ring what does it mean and I'm able to quote from them the Song of Solomon where it speaks of I am a beloved and she is mine and it's able to give me a witnessing tool and there are a lot of great pieces of jewelry that are good for witnessing there at James Avery artisan jewelry so I recommend that you go to them I also want to point to you the website for those of you who may be wanting more information about sociology 101 maybe some articles some questions that you may have about certain texts there are a ton of articles here matter of fact one that I'll reference here my interview with dr. Allen is this one right here what is semi-pelagianism where David Allen really unpacks at from a scholarly perspective a great article and as you can see they're just a hundreds and hundreds of other articles there for you to peruse if you wanna help support us and and make this this broadcast more widely seen and known you can click on that support link right there become a monthly donor or make a one-time donation that's the only way that we can continue to do these kinds of things is with support from not only sponsors but from patrons who stand with us to help make this ministry known and I appreciate those so much who make that donation and and help make this a reality there's also the classroom link there for more information about trinity seminary where i also teaches a professor if you would like to take a course with me or one of our other professors there at trinity click on that link and you can find out more information about trinity with that said let's go to the interview with dr. David Allen all right well welcome dr. Allen to the program hey thank you lighting it's a pleasure to be with you today well last time I saw you was when we were coming back on our flight from Malaysia we spent I guess 10 days there in Malaysia together and we were just reminiscing and discussing off-air how much how much fun we had together and how well we were treated well absolutely Malaysia was a wonderful trip it was a pleasure being with you at that conference we had wonderful time the Christians there were so gracious and hospitable we had wonderful fellowship with them wonderful food their hospitality was just unbelievable and their love and thirst for the truth love for the word of God at desire to understand matters of soteriology for example as well as text ribbon preaching which was part of my role there too that was very satisfying to me and I'm sure to you to see their great interest in there yes it was I was also really struck by how many similarities between what's happening there in Malaysia with regard to the rise of kind of the young restless reformed types he they talked about how is it was it mark Deaver or know as da Carson's been having a lot of conferences in that area and a lot of other you know Calvinistic books are very popular there in the area right now and kind of rising and some of the the leaders are concerned about that and and that's one of the reasons they did this conference on the atonement and on soteriology along with the text the biblical preaching through the text textual preaching exegetical preaching which you did a great job on by the way and and it's just interesting when they were taught that you know because we were just asking to describe what's going on and it was amazing how in in a smaller context because Malaysia's probably even smaller than the state of Texas but in a smaller context they're having almost the exact same situation that we are having here in the United States well it is very interesting and the parallels are evident there is a growing interest and reformed theology there particularly Calvinistic soteriology and the books and conferences that have occurred there in malaysia in recent years led by Calvinists coming from America and some coming from Australia and other places as they indicated to us many of their younger people are very interested and some have moved into a communist exodia logical framework and become very supportive of that they and therefore they read the key books by Carson or Piper or any of the key players they're marked ever or how molar among those of ours Calvinist within the Southern Baptist Convention that we've course very familiar with and so yes the the leadership there they were looking for the other side of the coin so right and we have a scholarly presentation of what you and I refer - as traditionalism or an on Calvinistic soteriology that is also not strictly in armenian soteriology and so here we are presenting that to them and I think it went very well I've heard several comments received emails and of appreciation and I think I think it went very well and I think the young Calvinists who attended and there were several who did we're all so appreciative for the most part of the fact that we were there and giving them some things to think about yep that's uh that's and that's what we're hoping for is get both sides of the story you know I was just reflecting on ductile and your your your time on sociology 101 I think you're my my most regular guest of all the guests that I've had you've been on more than any other guest and because I was looking back through here and matter-of-fact up on the screen you can't see it but I've got several of the the YouTube videos that I have and and all of them I've noticed have been with regard to atonement and in rightly so because that has been the the major bulk of your work the large book that I have sitting right over here on my shelf the extent of the atonement is really what you're known for that's which you've led in and your scholarship but some people I think maybe overlooked some of the other work that you've done and I had the privilege of having traveled with you to get to talk to you about all of these things and that's really what inspired me to ask you back onto the program to talk about another very hot topic within sociology and that has to do with eternal security and that reminded me through our conversations that you've also written a book which I have up on the screen now from the new American commentary set the commentary on the book of Hebrews which is found there at Amazon only $21 for the hardcover there if you're looking for a good commentary on the book of Hebrews and that reminded me of one of the major proof texts with regard to eternal eternal security and the question of can one lose their salvation or how can we know for sure that we're going to be saved or can someone a pasta sighs can someone with their free will choose to believe in Christ and with that same free will also choose to stop believing in Christ at some point in their life and the questions that surround that oftentimes Hebrews chapter 6 is brought into the discussion when talking about that particular debate and that particular issue and so I thought maybe we could just unpack that for our listeners in today's program and and help our listeners to understand from the traditionalists perspective most of us as traditionalist I would say especially within the Southern Baptist context hold to what we would refer to possibly as eternal security this is oftentimes the P within the tulip which is the kind of the concept or idea of perseverance of the saints which even Calvinists sometimes redefine as being really the perseverance of God the the God preserving us I like to change the P - the word predestined because I think that's what predestination is actually all about he has predestined those who put their faith in him to be made holy to being conformed into the image of Christ to be glorified in other words if you put your faith in him then what what we are predestined for we are predestined to be adopted we are predestined to be made holy and so I think that that aspect of it is something that is true biblically but I have friends a matter of fact some of the friends I've had on the program before John dr. Jonathan Pritchett and the bro-down guys Matt and Billy and and others I know Steve Gregg who's a part of the Trinity Commission with where we have some discussions who have a lot of respect for William Lane Craig and and others who I have a lot of respect for actually do differ with me somewhat on these position now none of those people I just mentioned believe you can accidentally fall out of faith weanling Craig all those other guys they don't say that you can outs in God's grace that God goes oh okay that's too many sins you're off you know you're off the books now you're gone none of them believe that but what they would say is that someone can choose to apostasy in other words you can't fall from the faith but you can walk away willingly from the faith and and and apostasy I leave the the faith and that becomes where the debate lies how do we understand that and so let me just pose that to you first dr. Alan what is your position and why okay well I strongly affirm the biblical what I consider to be the biblical teaching of the eternal security of the believer different terminology for that that you can find in theological discussion is the term perseverance of the saints or perseverance of the Savior which guarantees the perseverance of the saints the term once saved always saved is an okay term when properly defined but you'll hear that phrase used to describe the position the doctrine of assurance sometimes is a stand-in for what we mean by eternal security of the believer and so it's important that we get the terminology down that people oftentimes use and sometimes there is confusion in that terminology but let me be clear at the outset that I firmly affirm and believe in the eternal security of the believer I believe in the perseverance of the saints this of course will make my reformed friends very happy to know and my Armenian friends will be less persuaded although of course it needs to be said that there is a minority of Armenians out there today who also affirm the eternal security of the believer Arminianism is not monolithic just like communism is not monolithic and you see that when you look at things historically for example among the the books that Zondervan produces called for views the various views on grace theological terms you know the book on four views on eternal security it's interesting how that the chapters in that book are presented because you have what's called the classical Calvinist view and then you have what's called a moderate Calvinist view a norm Geisler rights for the moderate Calvinism view and actually there there is only one view of eternal security in the reformed tradition and that is that we are eternally secure the perseverance of the saints and so it's interesting to me that you have those two chapters in that book and not very much difference in the bottom line between a classical Calvinist view and what they call a moderate Calvinist view for example everyone who knows me knows that I'm not a Calvinist I do not self-identify with Calvinism or reformed theology and they also know that I'm not an Armenian do not self-identify as an Armenian and yet I firmly as many people do who are like me firmly assert the eternal security of the believer and then the same is true in the Armenian side you have plan as I mentioned earlier you have classical Arminians who are followers of Jacob Arminius not all of whom affirm that you can lose your salvation some of them are both Armenian and affirm eternal security now they're in the minority there aren't many look but you do have you do have classical Armenians and you see a lot of those for example among the Free Will Baptist movement and then you have a category called Wesleyan our midians and of course many within the classical armenian view i would assert that you can lose your salvation for only one reason and that would be apostasy and then you have the Wesleyan Armenians who would assert that no there is more than one reason that a person could be genuinely saved and then lose their salvation apostasy would be one but ongoing unrepentant sin willful sin could also put one outside of the grace of God or cause them to lose their salvation now here's what's distinct interesting in the distinction between those two groups historically classical Armenians who affirm that you can only lose your salvation based on apostasy that is very clear in there Lighting's but the Wesleyan Armenians although they are minions as well differ because they believe that you can lose your salvation for apostasy but for other sins as well so even among the Armenians on this issue of whether one can lose their salvation or not even Armenians differ on this and I think that's an important point to make yes I think it was even Jacob's Arminius I remember reading a quote from him saying that he actually appealed a mystery on the point in other words he just he said that he he wasn't sure he never took a hard stand as far as I know but there was a quote from Arminius that pretty much just says he wasn't sure about that issue he seemed to think it could go either way based upon his studies and so even Arminius himself admitted that this was a tough issue and so it you know for me right what I when I have my discussions with my friends who believe in you know that you can't apostatize because that's the that my buddies that I kind of run with a lot of them that affirm free will as I do also affirm well to be consistent in affirming free will you also have to affirm the ability to a pasta size and and oftentimes am i pushing back and forth with them on those discussions that they will what they will pull out certain questions that I want to pose to you to kind of maybe talk through things like well if you affirm free will then to be consistent it doesn't mean that you have to maintain that we we have a free will even as born-again believers in other words do you have a free will and then once you become a Christian you lose your free will you become less free as a Christian than you were as an unbeliever and that's sometimes the way the question is posed and so how would you respond to that well that isn't common argument that is made by Armenians who affirm that you can lose your your salvation the basic problem with that as I see it is that's a misunderstanding of the nature of what occurs at salvation the nature of regeneration the new birth and let me use the analogy of a physical birth which I think is legitimate analogy to use with the new birth when we are born we can never become unborn and I think the same is true spiritual I think the analogy is there that spiritual birth is an act of God now faith is the condition that is necessary for regeneration and faith is a act of the human being that is an exercise of libertarian freedom but it is not exercised in a vacuum and it is not exercised apart from God's initiation in salvation and from God's enabling grace in salvation which is why those of us who are traditionalists are not Pelagian or semi polite yet I've written about that by the way recently in an article that I posted on my website on semi-pelagianism yeah we reblogged in sociology 101 as well right thank you for that which basically asserts that it's impossible for a traditionalist to be semi-pelagianism spirit it is the supernatural work of God the Holy Spirit on a person that results in their salvation it's what brings about their justification well they're regenerated justification sanctification glorification adoption union with Christ all of these aspects the biblical terminology that is used to describe what occurs at regeneration and what occurs in salvation all of that is that's what God does the the condition of that certainly is faith that's a New Testament teaching and even Calvinists affirm that we exercise faith freely they we do not believe they can affirm that consistently because they deny libertarian freedom and assert compatible istic what's called compatibilism which you've talked about meantime from your program and for compatibilism is not a reflection in our view of genuine freedom the Calvinists think that it is but of course all non honest assert that no compatibilism is still a form of determinism and it's a redefinition of genuine human freedom but that aside Calvinists assert knowledgeable Calvinists assert that the individual human freely exercised his faith in Christ generally after regeneration most Calvinists assert their regeneration precedes faith both logically and chronologically I think both of those are wrong by the way we might say that they are virtually simultaneous with a nanosecond faith that then subsequently results in immediate regeneration right that also a debate for another time but but so the so the issue then that says I exercise libertarian freedom to become a believer but then I can't exercise libertarian freedom to reject Christ is a false dichotomy because it misunderstands the final nature the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration one line is crossed there is no going back it's like physical birth once physical birth occurs there is no going and it's ultimately which we sound like you're doing your your-your-your affirming that a free will decision can have an eternal impact in other words you can make a free decision but that has consequences that's our eternal constant which is the work of God by definition and by nature regeneration is a once for all no going back event in my judgment and this of course would be where we would agree with our Calvinist brothers and sisters on that point right well and and so it and I would just say I think even the Armenian who believes in apostasy believes in this to some degree because I think upon glorification when there when they when they die and are in heaven are once you're in heaven you would you would I hope I would think you would believe you can't apostatize in heaven there may be some Armenians out there that think that you can so there is the lost of quote-unquote the libertarian freedom to a pasta sighs once glorified so even in that situation you've got obviously a situation where a free decision has an eternal consequence it's either happening at the time within our life here or it's happening at glorification but it is happening eventually on both of our systems now you didn't tell me when you invited me on your program that you were gonna go messing with my theology today messing it up making life difficult for me yes actually the interesting thing is that once we get to heaven and experience and glorification apparently then we are not able to sin as Augustine would describe it himself once you get to heaven you're not able to sin because you no longer that sin nature is once and for all I think we can use that term eradicated and so then the question well how can you have liberty and freedom without a sin nature well in the same way that you can that Adam and Eve could have libertarian freedom before us and without us in nature it's just now we're going to have it in a glorified State and again there's a permanency to that apparently which God brings about where we are confirmed in our state of glorification and thus incapable at that point I would argue of going back going back into sin right okay so let me let me push on some of that and and obviously I know there are proof texts which we'll get into Hebrews here in a minute as one of the major proof texts for the concept of apostasy or abandoning abandoning the faith but before we go there just you know more just like initial push backs that you oftentimes hear in these discussions what about the warning texts there's you know there's scriptures that talk about how you know once you know once enlightened which we'll get into with Hebrews or other texts that warn about you know leaving the faith or falling away from the faith and and I know these are banded back and forth quite regularly what do you do with the warning passages which talk about you know Paul warning about falling away from faith or Peter warning about those kinds of things I know each of those passages probably have some distinct grammatical issues that we probably have to unpack but is there a general reply that you give with regard just to the warning passages and what what how those would be taken well I'll tell you what let's answer that more specifically with Hebrews in a moment but but let's preface this allow me to allow me to preface this by stepping back and pointing out that in the New Testament you have two groups of texts passages that impinge on this theological issue number one is you have the various texts the Gospel of John for example has many of these you find them in you know a lot of these in John chapter 6 John chapter 10 and some other number of other places texts that seem to clearly affirm the eternal security of the believer that once someone is truly saved they are truly saved as ontological II known by God himself in other words God knows them to be safe they're not fought they're not false believers false professors there are people who are true believers then those texts would seem to indicate the eternal security of the believer you know my sheep follow me Don they know my name no one shall pluck them out of my hand Philippians 1:6 you know he who began that good work and you will complete it at the day of Christ and a host of text like that Romans 8:28 and following those texts and they're there dozens of texts like that that would seem to firmly and clearly assert the fact that a person who is truly converted is secure eternally in that salvation and can never lose that salvation so there's the first part of it however then there are taxed in Scripture many of which are conditional type tags that say you know you will you will be saved if and then there's a conditional clause there you know if we persevere to the end or if so and so and so and so and so you have the many conditional statements which Armenians would use to assert that know the Bible teaches that it is possible to a pasta size and to lose your lose your salvation so here are these two sets of texts and the tension that arises because of those two sets of texts now when you come to the book of hebrews hebrews is one of the key books in the scripture that presents what you referred to a moment ago as a warnings warning passages we call them in the book of Hebrews so let me zero in on let me summarize the five warning passages and then let's zero in on the key passage which is Hebrews six you have five warning passages in the book of Hebrews the big debate is over to whom do the warnings refer are they warnings to unbelievers or are and maybe professed believers who are in the church but aren't truly saved or are they warnings to absolute true genuine believers and I'll address that here in a moment but by the way those five warning passengers are Hebrews 2:1 through four Hebrews 3 7 through 19 Hebrews 6 1 through 8 specifically 4 4 through 6 is the crux Hebrews 10:26 231 and Hebrews 12 25 through 29 those are the technically the five warning passages that are found in the book of Hebrews now the crux of that is Hebrews 6:1 through eight this is the number one debated text on this question of the eternal security of the believer it all falls down dr. flowers - how you interpret Greek participle in verse six the para pesum toss which is the Greek participle translated and falling away and the Armenians come along and say well that means loss of salvation Hebrews 6 is the castle over which the Armenian flag flies Hebrews 6 is also the thorn in the flesh for all Calvinists they all struggle with this passage and they come up with some interesting ways of trying to thwart an armenian interpretation and so the armenian says that falling away there's going to refer to loss of salvation now calvin has come along most of it before not also i'll point out in a moment but the traditional general Calvinist interpretation of that text is no it's not talking about loss of salvation but the warning to those who are professed believers apparent believers but nomina logically they appear to be believers but they're not truly saying and that is called the test of genuineness of you by the way the other view that our meaning views the loss of salvation and the test of genuine genuineness view says no that the reference here is to people who are in the church but not generally converted and they commit apostasy they appear to be something but they're really not and thus they commit apostasy and that gives evidence that they are unsaved now those are the two predominant views of the passage actually both are wrong which gets me into trouble with my Armenian friends and my Calvinist friends because it's like going you know into battle wearing Confederate a Confederate blouse and Union pants and you get shot at from both sides but in my commentary on Hebrews I have 50 pages where I discussed the different views related to Ebru 6 1 through 8 as far as I know my commentary in English it has the largest or longest discussion pagination wise on that on that subject so but well before you give your answer let me let me summarize make sure I'm following because if I'm following hopefully our listeners would be following so what you're saying is that the typical Armenian will say this is about those who have a pasta sized this is about those who've lost their salvation true believers lost their salvation and the Calvinists would say no no this is about people who never genuinely believed these are false converts and you're saying it's not about either one of those it's not yeah it's not about apostates or false converts so right then who is it about let's go through the text and I am pulling it up on the screen in front of you as you as you reference it so feel free to reference Hebrews six as you will and we'll let's learn who who is it who is you really talking about okay well to begin with it's important to get the context of this passage in the entire book of Hebrews and to go back and look at the previous two warning passages two one three four and three seven through nineteen what do you have in - one through four well we better pay close attention to the things we've heard the author says lest we drift and then notice verse two Hebrews 2 to 4 in the case of those he talks about how that if if those in the Old Testament generation received a just penalty those who disobeyed God in the exodus generation and they receive judgment for their disobedience God's covenant people then comes verse three how much more shall we deserve the same that the same kind of judgment if we neglect so great a salvation notice in that text the connection with the exodus generation in verse 2 that's important to know then come to the second warning passages which passage which is in Hebrews 3 7 through 19 notice that Hebrews 3 7 through 11 is the quotation of Psalm 95 notice this Psalm 95 is the poetic rendition of the historic event that occurred in numbers chapter 14 which is the event at Kadesh Barnea now what happened at Kadish Barnea well two years into the exodus generation God brought them to the to the edge the cusp of the promised land and he said go in and take the land I'll be with you so Moses sends out the spies the spies go out the twelve spies they go out they reckon order they're out 40 days they return they give a report and their report is a divided report ten of the spies say oh it can't do it committee there will get slaughtered but - of course you know two of the spies came came back and said no you know Joshua and Caleb said absolutely not we can do it God yeah there's some tough people over there but God said we can do it the people of Israel there in the wilderness then got angry with Moses for leading them here to that point they believe the ten rejected that the report of the two and they said let's get rid of Moses and let's go back to Egypt well about that time God shows up and he is some kind of ticked God says to Moses tell the people I've had it I've had it you know I'm going to just do away with all of them start over with you right Moses pleads with God not to do that because that would be a violation of his great name and he's made promises and so forth and so the text in numbers 14 says in verse 20 that God heard the prayer of Moses and he specifically said I have forgiven them I forget I forgive the people their rebellion right then what happens now by the way all of this is summarized in Hebrews 3 7 through 19 based on the account the historical account which is given in numbers 14 so what happens there at the end of numbers 14 well the next morning rolls around well before that what happens God said I've forgiven them but what did he say all of those twenty years of age and upward who have rebelled against me your carcasses will fall in the wilderness you will wonder in this wilderness one year for every day you had the spies in the land and then when that generation dies off I'll take the new generation in now what happened the next morning they get up and they say okay we're ready to go into the Promised Land Moses don't do it you're not gonna make it and they get up there and they go up and of course they're defeated many of them are killed they come back with their tails tucked between their legs and what happens God takes them around for 38 more years now here's the question this leads into Hebrews 6 were they still God's covenant people during that time yes they were did God continue to feed them and water them and did the manna fall did their sandals not wear out yes indeed God did all of those miraculous things protected them but what happened their carcasses fell in the wilderness and though that generation 20 years of age and older all died in the wilderness right so because they rebelled against God guess what one view says well they all lost their salvation so they not only died in the wilderness but therefore they never made it to the promised land the promised land for them was literal but we know in our hymnology sometimes the promised land it's referred to as heaven and so they didn't go to heaven either they died in the wilderness therefore God judged them they have a apostatized therefore they lost their salvation now here's the problem with that number one nowhere in the text of Scripture in the Old Testament does that ever state it is what happened what a stated it happened is they died physically they experienced God's temporal judgment which was loss of physical life they were not allowed to enter the promised land but that was physical land there's no statement that says that they were unsafe or that they somehow became no longer God's covenant people or that they somehow lost their salvation because of their sin in fact numbers 14 20 says God forgave them of their sin so now you've got a problem and then people say well you know wait a minute they you know they did not you know I didn't go into the promised land therefore they must have lost their salvation wait a minute who else did not go into the Promised Land well that would be Moses Moses didn't go in the Promised Land therefore are we going to say Moses lost himself a well of course not nobody says that so the analogy breaks down in the interpretation that they were that God that they lost their salvation is a false interpretation now that's a reputation of the Arminian view but how does that leading into Hebrews six what's the problem for the reformed of you well the problem is the same and here's why in Hebrews six the reform to want to argue that the text itself verses 436 does not refer to genuinely saved people it refers to people who appear to be saved but who actually weren't saying all right now let's look at that context a minute and just evaluate that all right so what's the context well notice there are four paragraphs in the pericope or in the section here Hebrews 5 11 through 6-8 that's a unit that goes together my commentary brings all of this stuff out but you've got 5 11 through 14 6 1 through 3 6 4 through 6 and 6 7 through 8 those four subparagraphs comprise the pericope or the unit there that we're referring to now notice that first paragraph this is contextual what is the author of Hebrews talking about in 5 11 through 14 is he talking about whether one is saved or not or is he talking about believers who are immature and the answer is clear from Hebrews 5 11 through 14 he's talking about immature believers notice then the strong conjunction therefore in 6:1 and what is the author saying Hebrews 6:1 if people look at it in their great New Testament or if they look at it in an English Bible either one there for Lee leaving aside let us link let me side the INRI doctrine of Christ let us press on to notice the next word it's not salvation it's to maturity right passage the context is not about salvation or loss of salvation it is addressed to believers and it has to do with maturity now further notice as you get on you go into four through six notice that verse four begins with the Greek conjunction gar which semantically is always a subordinate conjunctions that conjunction that entity introduces a subordinate idea modifying the previous paragraph so notice what you have ya press on to maturity in verse 1 look but look carefully at verse 3 verse 3 of Hebrews 6 is the single most neglected verse in all of the book of Hebrews notice what it says this we will do if God permits now question what is the antecedent of this and the answer to that is it is maturity in verse 1 this we will do press on to maturity if God permits wait a minute doesn't God want us to press on to maturity absolutely well what's this business then of if God permits we may not be able to press on then comes the GAR the English translation for and you move into four through six the debated passage for it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened who tasted the heavenly gift were made partakers of the Holy Spirit tasted the good word of God powers of the age to come and who have fallen away that's the literal rendering in the order of the Greek by the way so difficult the structure is the semantic orders what I'm referring to the semantic structure the structure of this text is very difficult it's probably most New Testament scholars would say Hebrews 6:46 is in the top five the most difficult passages morning as passages to interpret many would put it as number one in the Testament and so now the question is what's the relationship of four to six ooh verse one and two the pressing on to maturity and verse three this we will do if God permits now let me pause there and then late use maybe I don't know what you want to inject I don't want to do all the talk and then I'm going to tile this together but but simply to point out the importance of context here dr. flowers that you've got to see in order to correctly interpret this text two things are crucial one is the context context is addressed to believe and two is the correct interpretation of the word part of pesum toss the falling away in verse six those are the two key issues as I see them see them but notice the connection to numbers 14 and verse 3 of Hebrews 6 what does verse 3 say this we will do if God permits what happened in numbers 40 what did God not permit the people of Israel to do he did not permit them to enter the promised land but that's no statement that they were unsaved when they died and that they went to hell and Moses becomes an illustration of that Moses was denied entrance into the Promised Land because of sin as well but he did not lose his salvation he did all of those who died in the wilderness and so you've got this connection this analogy going that's crucial to the proper interpretation of the text so let me take a breath there and see if there's any clarifying point to be made whether those are our listeners at this point in your audience yeah no I think the the point you made with regard to chapter 11 I'm excuse me chapter 5 verses 11 of following that obviously he's addressing the immaturity of his audience which I think goes right along with your interpretation that he's not addressing apostates and not addressing false converts but instead he's addressing immature believers in so these are people who are actually believers and therefore what he's going on to say in the following with regard to the falling away that's they come becomes the question what what is his conclusion with regard to that and I think that's where it comes in into the next verses that you're about to lead into right now notice this notice the five participles in verses four through six yeah five of them there who have been once enlightened who tasted the heavenly gift become partakers of the Holy Spirit tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come and then number five and who have fallen away now the question there I don't want to go to D exegetically into the Greek New Testament but it's crucial to identify syntactically whether those participles are basically functioning substantively adjective Li or are they functioning at verbally and the answer is very clear that they are functioning substantively and that all five are bundled together by the author to refer to the same group of people in other words the people who have fallen away whatever falling away means are those who have been in once enlightened and have tasted the heavenly give the takers of the Holy Spirit etc there are several reasons we know that the article in verse four bundles them all together the conjunctions that occur in Greek that a and in the Chi Chi Chi your conjunctions bind them together and number three they're all bracketed in one infinitival clause notice that so all of that they're by the way they're also all in the same Greek case gender and number and they all function as the direct object of the infinitive to renew in the Greek text and therefore all five of these participles are referring to the same group of people right and for the Armenian that who is the apostate and for the Calvinist most Calvinists I would say the who is the false convert and so what you're saying the who is neither one of those who is neither one of those contextually and here is why notice by the way I might point out if you're going to argue who have fallen way means apostasy and therefore indicates that these since logically from a Calvinistic perspective the elect candidates to see therefore the first four statements cannot be referring to save people that's the Box the hermeneutical and exegetical box or straitjacket that Calvinists are forced into on this that those who want to take that interpretation now exegetically they're swimming upstream here and trying to climb Mount Everest and it's pretty difficult to do look at those statements who've been once enlightened that phrase that word enlightened is used both the Old Testament talk about God's covenant people in the Septuagint but it's also used in the New Testament in Ephesians and other places to refer clearly to believers who have been once enlightened no unbeliever has ever been enlightened in that sense or it tasted the heavenly gift the same thing that's the terminology that's used to describe believers the third one is the coup de gras on it though who become partakers of the Holy Spirit look at that if this is a reference to those who are not true believers pray tell me where in Scripture are unsaved people partakers of the Holy Spirit look at that word partakers in your Greek New Testament and pick up Gruden wayne grudem's article trying to make this point and he jumps through hoops and goes through hermeneutical legerdemain to invent the interpretation he's trying to make here in fact Grudem says that these professors who were not possessors these unbelievers who were in the church but we're not truly saying that they may have experienced some of the gifts of the Holy Spirit what what in the New Testament do you read that it was the tendentious exegesis of the Calvinists who are committed to a particular theology and then this text confronts that theology and they struggle with it and you can remember all of this critique you can read in my commentary on this text I critique all the various views on the subject of what's the meaning here and then those who have tasted the good word of God powers of the age to come how can unbelievers taste the Word of God and the powers of the coming age and then of course who have fallen away the point is that the previous four participles clearly refer to save the people and many Calvinists have admit that and recognize that and they take a different view because they admit that it's really not exegetically possible to squeeze out of this text the meaning that these five participles refer to a group of people who are not truly converted on that sense that our many interpretations got this passage correct they are correct to affirm that the people referred to in the five participles are believers the Calvinists are incorrect to affirm that they are not genuine believers but they are both wrong in their interpretation of the Greek word falling away because both traditions interpret that word to mean apostasy despite the fact that in any lexicon that term does not mean apostasy is never used for apostasy and in the I forget how many in the lingua graeca web based a research tool where you go through and you look at all the uses from the 3rd century BC to about the 2nd 3rd century AD all the papyri and all the letters and different things that we have that employ this word para pesum toss not and not a single usage does it mean apostasy furthermore the word occurs seven times in the Septuagint and not a single one of those times does it mean apostasy and so this is a reading into this word of a theological concept and that coupled with the failure to recognize the context leads to I think the false interpretation of the text we're not talking about belief losing their salvation nor are we talking about false believers of pasta sizing now time out can false believers of pasta sighs you bet that's not debate that's not the question of course they can and anybody who's pastor to church and has a practical pastoral experience knows that you can have unsaved people in your church I was a senior pastor of two churches for twenty-one years but an interim pastor of 13 churches was a student pastor of the prior dal at for five years and I guarantee you that unsaved people can be a part of the church there's no question about that all Calvinist and all non Calvinists affirm that it's certainly possible to be a part of the church and beyond say that's not what the author of Hebrews though is talking about in my judgment falling away here in the context of everything that's been said refers to a willful disobedience and willful sin against God by a believer that is unrepented on and you fail to repent and you continue in a situation for whatever period of time remains unspecified but it's a mindset and it's an attitude on the part of believers it's in it's the same thing that occurred in the wilderness they had they constantly you know tested God they were his covenant people remember they'd already gone through the Red Sea even more importantly than that they'd already gone through the Passover the blood had been shed and applied and they were they had were continually celebrating the Passover and so here these were God's covenant people now does that mean that every single one of those 1.2 million or 1.5 million or 600,000 however many Old Testament scholars want to say of the exodus generation but I mean that every single one of them was converted well no it doesn't because salvation is still by faith based on the Word of God but it certainly doesn't mean that that 1.2 million or however many because they're carcasses died in the wilderness that they were unsaved and professing believers Oh that they were believers who lost their salvation both interpretations from the reformed and from the Armenians go wrong on that point so what is this about in context this is about spiritual maturity it is about failure to press on to maturity because of willful sin and then the discipline that God will bring both temporarily and at the judgment seat of Christ will serve rewards there it's the temporal discipline now as well as loss of rewards in the eschaton at the judgment seat of Christ that's what's happening in this text it's better sense of the context makes better sense of the overall theology and that's the the meaning of this passage in my judgment now here's what's interesting the view that I just articulated is the view that many companies hold and that many non Calvinist own it is not a view that is limited to within the Arminian camp or to the Calvinist can there are many non Calvinist including some Armenians who hold the view I just described and there are many cabinets too called view that I just described now it is true that they are in the minority in both camps the majority of Calvinists affirm what's called the test of genuineness of view or a variation of that video advocated by people like Spurgeon Burke our and more recent days by people like my friend Tom Shriner and Kennedy and some others who would articulate that particular viewpoint a variation of the test of genuineness view but but nevertheless I think my point is contextually and by definition of para pacem toss both of those views are in their interpretation of the text the text is not about loss of salvation falling away is not apostasy it's not loss of salvation and nor is it descriptive of false believers these are believers who are standing off the word means to stand off from God look at how the word is used in the Septuagint and it's the word that is describes God's people who stand off from him thus they are falling away from him in that sin has nothing to do with loss of salvation it's in that believers can commit or an ongoing mindset of willful sin that ultimately is going to lead to God's discipline of a believer I would overall describe what's happening here yeah and it reminds me a little bit of Paul's Summa Paul's writing in 1st Corinthians chapter 3 that talks about the carnality of the the Corinthians when he speaks about their immaturity and they can't take the the meat of the word because of their carnality and of course I know you hold to the Luke and our authorship of Hebrews which I've been persuaded of as well based upon your arguments because I think it's like all right that's a good it's a good argument I like I like the Lucan authorship arguments and in Luke was known to be a one who traveled obviously with Paul and so could have also been influenced by those those same teachings as well or if someone would argue Pauline authorship either way I think that it lends itself to the fact that there is other biblical texts that speak of immature or carnal Christians of this day and the the lack of blessings that they will receive as well as some of the the problems that they are going to have as carnal not being able to receive the meat of the word and receive the the blessings that he has for those who walk in maturity all of those kinds of things fall into that but I think the strength of this argument comes even on down in these verses so let's continue down through these passages because I think when he asks some of these questions he really begins to reveal who he is and isn't talking to would you agree yes you come out occasions I'll be talking about Hebrews 6 still correct yes yeah well let me go before we do that let me go back to your text you mentioned 1st Corinthians 3 yes in the first Corinthians three tags Paul talks about the judgement seat of Christ people will appear there and wind up presenting their their lot their works in essence will be of the nature of gold silver and precious stones or wood hay and stubble and their works will be put under the pristine gaze refining gaze of Jesus himself and and their works will be evaluated now notice that contextually Paul is talking about a specific group of people there namely those who go into an area and who don't build on the proper foundation they go into plant churches or whatever but they're there they're not building on the proper foundation and therefore they wind up with more wood hay and stubble but as Gordon fee points out in his commentary on 1st Corinthians in response to DA Carson here he says that there's a general principle outlined there that it's not just a reference to those the specific context references those but notice that what Paul says that these are people who come to the end of their life or they come to that judgment seat of Christ and they're though their works there there's their biblical their spiritual life of what they have accomplished can either be described as wood hay and stubble or gold silver and precious stones the wood hay and stubble is burned up but now notice what happens to those whose works are burned up the very next verse they enter Heaven yet so as by fire and it's here you have believers they don't have a whole lot of works to show but and and yet they enter Heaven you know there there is a failure on their part during this life and that is the principle the same kind of principle that we are talking about here now I might also point out that God disciplines some of his people in Scripture with a pretty serious discipline that one text but there are others and a niacin sapphire in Acts chapter 5 you know they Leyden company and you probably argue where they weren't truly saved the text doesn't say that the implication is that they were believers and that's why they experienced God's discipline they your is premature death and then of course you have the sin unto death in first John which I think refers to believers but you have the very clear statement of Paul in 1st Corinthians 11 at the Lord's table some of those in Corinth we're monkeying around goofing up getting drunk at the Lord's table and what does Paul say hey God takes that pretty seriously you are dishonouring his son and the cross and therefore what is Paul saying because of your sinfulness many of you are weak and sickly and then what is he son some of you have fallen asleep the phrase there of course is a metaphor for premature death nope it's God discipline some of his own children with premature death physically why well in the walk to the in the words of the author of Hebrews they were engaging in willful sin they were not pressing on to maturity and God disciplined them in this line and of course there's a loss of rewards not only now of the joy walking with Christ and having an effective service but there is no the loss of rewards at the judgment seat of Christ the Baima the judgment seat the Baima see is where only believers appear and it's and it's a writ not a judgment in the sense of determining who goes to heaven and who goes to hell that's the great white throne judgment the Baima famouse is a judgment of believers and apparently works are involved in that and apparently rewards are involved in that and the name of the view that I have articulated and that many others have articulated back to Hebrews 6 now is called the loss of rewards view and that's really only part of it I'm not very fond of that terminology it's more serious than that it's the willful disobedience of a believer view it's that God is not going to take that lightly the it's the fact that believers who choose to willfully see in it don't repent of that sin that God's gonna deal with that he'll deal with it in this life and he'll deal with it in the eschaton at the judgment seat of Christ but what God doesn't do is remove their salvation because and as an Armenian would argue well they've removed themselves by apostasy but I would argue and this is why I certainly would agree with my Calvin istic brothers and sisters they those who commit apostasy are giving clear evidence that they're not saved I would take the position that a truly genuinely saved person will never commit apostasy I would base that partially on first John 2:19 they went out from us because they were never a bus in the first place so is apostasy possible yes by unbelievers but can a believer commit apostasy in my opinion no this is where I agree with my Calvinist brothers we're ancestors and where I disagree with my Armenian brothers and sisters because I think the New Testament indicates that a genuinely converted person cannot lose their salvation and notice in Hebrews 6 is your question notice in 6 7 & 8 you come to the fourth subparagraph in the Greek text and notice the the conjunction gar again that links that with four through six and notice that what the author does is give an illustration and the illustration is the land that drinks in the rain and notice carefully the NIV obscures this but other translations tend to make it more clear how many different parcels of land are there here there are not two there is only one it's one land one piece of land that is capable of bringing forth fruit or thorns and thistles and if it brings forth fruit then fine but if it brings forth thorns and thistles it is burned over as the agrarian metaphor or the agrarian activity in the first century when a parcel of land was not producing many times the farmer would burn it over and then replant and that's the metaphor here and many people say that word burned over the word fire and they think hah ah hah hell it's talking hell see they went to hell see they lost their salvation well you need to do a study of fire in the Bible and you need to discover that when God says he's a consuming fire he says that to his people hmm it's covenant people it is a word fire does not necessarily always in Scripture equate to hell again I would refer my readers to the commentary on Hebrews and in the footnotes they can find all other many other sources to track that down and look at that but notice that you have one field here with two possible results that's exactly what the author paper is is talking about you've got a saved person who can produce the fruit he should produce as a result of maturity and pressing on to maturity or you have a saved person who can temporarily engage in willful sin for how long only God knows they even did it for a solid year with the resultant of his sin against met with Bathsheba but how long a believer can go and willful sin that's something that only God knows but nonetheless you have the two options that are there the the illustration that is given in 7 and 8 supports the interpretation that the reference is to believers who are failing to press on to spiritual maturity and therefore in danger of God's discipline the whole point of the book of Hebrews is pastoral the author is trying to say to his readers and to us today don't do what the people of Israel did in the exodus generation they were a part of God's covenant people they rebelled against they disobeyed God and what did God do he disciplined them but did they lose their salvation but he did discipline them and there was serious loss because they lost the promised land they're serious lost for a believer today who engages in willful sin against God and refuses to do with that a one final thing on this you say well what if and if we have a person who claims to be saved and then there's no fruit at all in their line well I would say that if there's zero fruit that's pretty good evidence they weren't saved in the first place so I think that's needs to be said as well but we don't want to get to the point to say well that everybody has to produce fruit a lot of it in order to to be considered saved otherwise that they've apostasy and they've lost their salvation where we don't want to go that route either so we've got to be judicious in the way that we think this through and talk about all of this but I would have the four major interpretations of of Hebrews 6 and well actually 5 with the variation on the test of genuine view so let me close and summarize this way then we'll pursue however you wish you've got the loss of salvation view which Armenians take you have the test of genuineness view these aren't true believers that's the many of the Reform take that view you have the hypothetical view that that this is a hypothetical situation that can't really happen that takes that adverbial interpretation of the participle which is problematic you can't really do that syntactically you have of course the variation of the test of genuineness view by Shriner and kanaday and and then you have what I consider to be the correct view which is the spiritual maturity or a loss of rewards view and contextually that's what I think is going on the biggest objection to that view is well David you've got all this strong language about you know and all these warning passionately strong a strong language about they you know falling away they crucified recruit by themselves the Son of God it's impossible to call them back to to repentance well notice that Jesus uses strong language to people including his own disciples he calls them fools and slow of heart to believe and he chastises them greatly and so you've got a lot of strong language that's used by Paul by Jesus by the New Testament authors yet in reference to people that are saved has nothing to do with loss of salvation now people who aren't saved need to be warned of judgment need to be told to obey the gospel as Paul says in Romans 1 the gospel is not only to be believed it is to be a body that needs to be said - unsaved people but save people also need to be warned about a flippant lackadaisical attitude in the Christian life and that God will deal with that they need to be warned and that's what's happening in Hebrews press on to maturity don't drift away draw near that's what's going on in Hebrews and I think that makes the best contextually and lexically the meaning of para pesum toss the participle translated falling away I think that makes better sense of the passage as a whole and therefore the text does not affirm loss of salvation what is what do you think is meant by it's impossible to call them back to repentance I think I think a believer gets to the point if they want to continually rebel against God God says that's it you know What did he say to the jit wilderness Jarett I will not permit you to enter the promised land so it's talking about not in other words hardening over giving somebody who's already believer but who's becoming more and more default in his thinking much immature and they let them die and or you know say okay no more blessings for you I'm not gonna let you have the Promised Land I'm not going to let you have the blessings that I planned for you that kind of a thing yes confirmed in their immaturity that's why the author of Hebrews says in verse three this we will do press on to maturity if God permits but if you go on in that like the Exodus generate God may not permit you to press on to maturity has nothing to do with loss of salvation the context is not salvation the context is sanctification the context is not so Meishan its service the context is not salvation it is spiritual maturity that's the content okay and what makes this even so much more strong couple things that come to mind as I was listening to you talk one this aligns so well with the good character of God I mean this is like a good father in our world you know I've got children obviously and there's several situations that I can think of with my own children and disciplining them that the these these same principles that you're promoting here would be true with my children it's not about me disowning them you know in the sense that I wouldn't be their daddy anymore this is about discipline of a good father that loves them hey if you continue to go this direction you continue to do these things then you're not going to you know you're not gonna have the the blessings and the experience that I want for you and so that's tends to align with that secondly that okay let's let's take let's take the Arminian a typical or minion approach first and say okay let's think this is a pasta apostates alright and so these are people who have abandoned the faith and therefore they fall in a way because they have a pasta size they have they're freely through the free will they have chosen to reject the things of Christ and have walked away and now it says is impossible for to call them back to repentance what Arminian do you know who lives that out consistently in other words is there any harmony in you know I can't think of any Armenian who would say oh that person left the church and a pasta size therefore I don't want to evangelize them and if they repent and come back I'm not gonna let them back in because of Hebrews 6 in other words it seems to me that our minions don't don't consistently live out this passage to really believe that way because it seems to me that our minions would continue to evangelize an apostate and would continue to hope for their repentance and accept them back into the church if they did repent they wouldn't treat them as if it was impossible for them to come back to the faith right okay correct let's distinguish between two groups of our minions let's go back to the historical reference earlier okay you classical Armenians which would be today that would be people like Free Will Baptist you know you know people like we in Penson and people like that picker really those folks would fall into that category now here's what they believe they and you can see this in their writings they believe that there's only one grounds for loss of salvation and that is apostasy on the part of a believer they further believe based on Hebrews six that once one who is a true believer commits apostasy they can never be saved again that's their view now that's a different view that's the minority view the majority of Armenians who are not of that group people like all of your Assemblies of God all of the holiness movement all the Pentecostal movement people also the Wesleyan Armenians all right Wesleyan Methodist and all of that group would not only affirm that you can lose your salvation on the basis of apostasy but secondly they would argue you can lose your salvation for a series of will symbols right then they would also argue however you can be saved again if you repent you can be consent so their interpretive Hebrews six is it's impossible as long as you don't repent but if you do repent oh well then you can be saved again the classical Armenians argue no you can if you commit apostasy you're a believer you commit apostasy you lose your salvation the scripture says you can never be saved again the Wesleyan Armenians and all Armenians today who are as I just described in those various groups all affirm the apostasy is only one way to lose your salvation other serious sin willful sin unrepented off can cause you to lose your salvation as well they are the ones that are inconsistent because if you're going to be consistent that this text talks about so salvation then you pretty well have to go with it all the way and say it's impossible to renew them again to repentance notice the strong word impossible is the same word used for it's impossible for God to lie in Hebrews 6 earlier and so you know I'm sorry Hebrews 6 later when you get down he brew 6 long about verse 16 17 it is impossible for God to lie so the same concept there is here it's not that God is impossible to god to lie unless under certain circumstances no it's just impossible that God would like it's a violation of his nature same thing here if you do this then the consequence is you can't be renewed to repentance the classical Armenians are consistent on that believing that only apostasy is the way you lose it and once you lose it you never get it back huh okay yeah but your other Armenians I think are inconsistent arguing that you can lose it but gain it back maybe lose it again gain it back I would argue along with classical Armenians that they that is an inconsistent position yeah and that one's hard really hard for me to imagine even the this is one of the the reasons I've really you know pushed my friends even on the apostasy issues because once once a heart is regenerated you know it's like a the surgeon gives you a new heart it's like is that heart taken back out I mean is that is is it you know dying is the the new creation made back into an old creation again I'm you know how can we speak of regeneration as Christ coming to and dwell us by his Spirit does the high spirit go okay I'm out you know he denied me so I'm jumping ship now and then how does one who's been in dwelled by the spirit in that way how do they abandon Christ in such a way that they would deny the very lord who bought them in a sense as it said in the scriptures and and you know it's just it's hard for me to to imagine when I read through the Scriptures the the way in which the Scriptures speak of regeneration and new birth and all those things of saying okay that somehow is undone you know it right it's like it's like when you jump into the pool that that's your freewill choice to jump into the pool but it's inevitable you're getting wet you know that's an inevitable consequence of a freewill choice you can't like do getting getting drenched now I guess you could argue that well you can climb back out of the pool and eventually dry back off again and I guess that's the way they see it is in the apostasy issue is that you're choosing to get out of the pool and go dry back off and therefore to lose the wetness again I'm just trying to think of analogy some ways to think through this but um that's that's the that's that's the kind of the back and forth that I go with this but I wanted to go back to Hebrews six just for a second cuz it goes on to say you know the produces thorns and thistles and worthless but he goes on in verse nine he says even though we are speaking this way dear friends in your case we are confident of better things conniving with salvation so so talk about that how that again goes along with what you're saying in verse nine well right the author the author is genuinely warning the believers that he's writing to that this could be their situation but verse nine and following makes clear that he doesn't think they've gotten there yet but he warns them that they could get there they persist you know they can get there or this can this kind of thing can happen to them they can be in a similar situation as the exodus generation in terms of loss and so he's warning them and he says but we are persuaded better things and things accompanying notice he says things accompanying salvation and you need to look at that carefully in the Greek text there and you also need to remember that salvation is discussed in Scripture in three tenses it is we have been saved we are being saved and we shall be safe those relate and now analogously roughly to justification which is a past event sanctification positional sanctification is but practical sanctification what we call in theology progressive sanctification is ongoing and then glorification is future we are not yet glorified in terms of actuality but the point of Romans 8 is all three of those tenses of salvation are true and they are going to be true that's the point of Romans 8:29 and following this is what's going to have glorification is it is coming and it is going to it's as certain as your justification and your your sanctification here now also glorification is all settled that's not that's going to happen so back to your point about the watershed of regeneration and this is something I would like to harp on as well and this is where all traditionalist would agree with our Calvinistic friends that there is a watershed that once a person is regenerated that is a sovereign act of God on the human heart only the Holy Spirit regenerates it's a sovereign work of God and therefore as a result of that sovereign work god himself it appears to me indicates that that is a full and final and irreversible event in other words actual regeneration is always efficacious it regeneration means at that point that salvation is guaranteed all of the way to the end of the line glorification and in heaven and nothing can undo it that's what's efficacious and what orca sea doesn't rest in the cross it's not that the cross the atonement always guarantees it so nap okay that's the mistake the hot Calvinists make those who have limited atonement know it is at the point of regeneration the application of the benefits of the atonement accrue to the believer God does that God regenerates him it's a sovereign act or her it is a sovereign act of God and therefore it is permanent it is fixed it is therefore irreversible and thus develops or entails the concept of the eternal security of the believer well what I was beautiful about your interpretation dr. Allen is that it it does not make this warning a fake warning or a bluff because what it seems like is sometimes the accusation against those who hold to the Arminian position or the traditionalist side of things is that you're making all those warning passages fake warnings there Bluffs and I've even Calvinists to say well the reason that the warnings are there is to ensure the perseverance as if reparation wouldn't do that itself in and so there they often would argue well the reason that that said that in Scripture is to by means using means to make latter that the elect people remain faithful but of course on the other side of that you're always going well why would you need a warning to do that whenever it's going to be happening by effectual means anyway but your interpretation handles that because it's not a warning of a person losing salvation it is a warning for those who are saved about what can what can come if you continue to rebel against the things of God or you don't walk in maturity that there can be discipline that takes place for those even who are a part of the body of Christ right the using the term means there the variation of the tests of genuineness view is called the means of salvation view and in modern times that view is popularized by Tom Snyder and our del Canada and so those are both both of whom are friends I haven't seen dr. Kennedy in a long time but dr. Schreiner and I have worked together on the you know the Christian standard Bible translation team and all of that and he and I've been friends for many years we just differ on this of course but he affirms and discusses the means of salvation view which is that the warnings are the means that God uses but but I critique this in my commentary part of the problem with that is the danger of making the warnings you remove the teeth of the warnings in other words these are warnings but they really can't hurt you they're really not you're really not gonna there's you know you're really not going to lose anything I don't lose your salvation and you're not gonna you are going to persevere in eternal security so the warnings are not are the means that are used to help you to do that I find that problematic and we won't be able to go and you don't have time to go into detail on that but my commentary I do go into detail on the problems of what that I see with the means of salvation view along with the test of genuineness view in terms of interpreting Hebrews 6 4 through 6 right and it's it's um it's like a it's almost like a bluff it's it's hope my son's not watching this but this happened one time a while back we have USAA our bank that we share and there's a student accounts with the bank and you can get on there and you can and I can put money into his account now I can't control the account once it's there I can just send money into his account and I you know I can't take money out of everything I just send money into the account well his allowance has you know is automatically put in there even though I don't tell him it's automatically put in there but I'd had a setup to automatically be put in there and so it had come past the time where his allowance was already deposited into his account that he owns but he didn't know that yet because he hadn't looked at it and now and I've bluffed him and I kind of threatened you know hey I'm not gonna let that go into your account unless you get your chores done and I just you know I just kind of like hey you can't you're not gonna get your money unless you can charge torches on you can't get your money you get you know and some and since I'm kind of bluffing him because I'm saying hey yeah I'm gonna stop your payment I'm not gonna get you your money unless you do your chores but if he were to learn from some theologian calling him on the phone and say hey you're already a guaranteed it's Auto autumn it's automated you know mada paid you're already got it you don't need to listen to your dad's bluffs there he's just bluffing you then you've taken the teeth out of that warning of hey I'm not gonna get your allowance unless you do your chore this week you're taking that that that teeth out of it and that's what's the beauty of your interpretation is that it's a real warning it's just it's not a real warning to elect people who are already irresistible and effectually going to be saved regardless of their choices or actions it is a warning towards those who have who have put their faith in Christ and if following him but who possibly could have you know detrimental income outcomes in their life if they continue to walk into maturity which by the way verse 10 which I've not really noticed verse 10 before because I haven't read it in the context of what you're talking about but verse 10 goes on to say for God is not unjust he will not forgive your work he will not excuse me he will not forget your work and the love you showed for his name when you serve the Saints and you continue to serve him so it seems to he seems here that God is remembering and he even promises he will not forget you work and the love you showed for his name how can that be a false convert one because why would a false convert and show genuine love for his name on the Calvinist view a false convert can't do anything good according to Calvinism how does a false convert show love in his name and serve the Saints if a if a non elect reprobate is truly being referenced here false convert then they can do no good thing without being regenerate first and so verse ten seems to fly in the face of at least the predominant Calvinist view that these are not genuine believers because how can he remember their work and their love for the Saints if that's the case well right I think contextually they have a problem at that point because it's obvious the author is a you're asking readers there and assuming there something there that they're converted and now part of the answer to that from that some of your Calvinist friends are going to give you is they're going to say and John MacArthur becomes an example of this MacArthur will argue and his commentary on Hebrews that the author has different audiences that he is addressing in agasi okay he's going to argue that at times he's going to be addressing believers and at other times he's going to be addressing unsaved people and then at times of professing believers now there's a real problem with that there's no exegetical data to support that and most scholars reject MacArthur's attempt to respond to the warning passages in that way he's going to have a difficult time that that's what they're going to argue or at least that's what some within the reformed community are going to argue now they cannot sustain that exegetically that's a problem but that's how they're gonna attempt to answer your point well in closing and because we've been going along enough and I don't want to give you an opportunity to kind of close out this discussion by by addressing usually when this question of assurance of salvation or eternal security comes up it's usually being asked by someone in because of fear the they genuinely have this fear this this feeling of how do I know I'm really going to heaven you know that's what I want to be assured of I want to know that I'm really saved here right so where address those folks who may have turned on this video and watched through this and they're just looking for a pastoral comfort and knowing that I have security in Christ and and and it may be fearful of Hell or fearful of death in that way what would you say to Donna well that reminds me at first John 5:13 these things I have written unto you that you may know that you have eternal life that you may have assurance so let's let me close by summarizing in this way this subject the subject of eternal security and assurance is a two-pronged subject there is an objective side to this and a subjective side to it objectively believers are eternally secure based on the decree of God the work of God what happens in regeneration which is the work of God God is going to bring all of those whom he regenerates the final salvation which is glorification that's an objective the objective side of eternal security then there is the subjective side of that which is best termed assurance so not everyone who has objective eternal security possesses subjective assurance of that those two things must be distinguished and this is what John is getting at in first John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe he's not writing that they may believe that's John's Gospel but in his letter first John he's writing to those who do believe so that you may know that you have eternal life here is the element of assurance that's involved and yes many believers don't have assurance and there are a number of reasons for that fear of various things it may be that they're not living for the Lord like they should be and the Holy Spirit is convicting them of that and in you know Satan may come in and join in all of that - and say I see you're not you're not truly saying now if a person is not truly saying Satan is not going to be the one to point that out he wants them to be deceived so it would be the Holy Spirit who would be bringing conviction to someone who's not truly say maybe who thinks they are but it's not who would be prodding them and convicting them that they need genuine salvation they need to be genuinely converted in that sense you might say that's kind of good guilt being brought on by God the Holy Spirit versus bad guilt being brought on by Satan and against someone who's a true believer and Satan's wanting to hinder them in their spiritual life you know he's our great adversary and interesting John deals with Satan several times he references him in first John you know he's our enemies our adversary you know we are children of God others are children of the devil you know greater see who's in you than he who's in the world and so John is writing that we might have assurance that John's not the only one who does that Paul I think is doing that in Romans 8 Paul is doing it in Ephesians 1 Ephesians 1:3 through 14 the longest sentence in the Greek New Testament one sentence in Greek is among other things is a passage about great assurance to those who are in Christ the eternal security of the believer by the way Hebrews 6 ends verses 13 to 18 the final paragraph is one of the strongest passages on eternal security this is what's interesting from the front from the castle where do our minions fly their flag on the possibility of loss of salvation comes at the end of Hebrews 6 their their castle is Hebrews 6:46 comes in the end of the sixth chapter of Hebrews one of the strongest affirmations of the security of the believer which hope we have as an anchor for the Soul both sure and steadfast and one which is entered behind the veil where Christ has entered for us the high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek we've not even touched on the nature of the high priesthood of Christ who completed his priestly work on the cross but who continues to intercede for those who are his and who is the one both its cross and its intercession is what guarantees our eternal security in other words we are secure because of the promises of God actually our security rests in Christ and in him alone and this is where by the way I agree with Calvin and you know it might come as a surprise some of my Calvinist friends think that I don't agree with Calvinism at all I hope I've made it clear that there are many areas I'd to do but number two I read Calvin and I like Calvin now Calvin is wrong and a lot of things but he's right on a lot of things Calvin's right only extending the atonement he believes the atonement is universal he's also right on the nature of the eternal security of the believer in the surance that comes from that our assurance is not based on introspection morbid introspection which was the error of some of the Puritans but our assurance is based on Christ and his cross and his promises to us Calvin is exactly right about that that's where our eternal security and the assurance of that eternal security lies that's a good way to I think conclude this discussion and and and just kind of as a recap to remind people if if you're it's just like any other discussion we've had a lot of a lot of the the reasons I left Calvinist in the first place is because I used to think it's it's either Calvinism or Arminianism it's either this view or that view there's only two views and you know it being considered and what you introduced is that it's not always just about apostates being either genuine believers who are pasta sizing or false believers who are pasta sizing but in some of these texts especially in Hebrews it's also it also could be about genuine believers who are not maturing in the faith or who could be suffering consequences in the discipline of the Father and so when you introduce that other possibility into the text then you're able to go okay maybe this this text is a genuine warning with teeth but it's not being directed to genuine believers who are pasta sizing nor is it being ejected to false converts but instead I addressed two genuine believers who were having trouble with maturity which which would align that real well with what you already mentioned in first Corinthians chapter three about the carnal believers they're using some of the same analogies it sounds like so thank you so much for taking the time to unpack that for us and our audience thank you for your work and I'm sure this won't be the last time you're on the pod guess we love having you on and I really appreciate your time today well thank you dr. flowers certainly a pleasure to discuss this very important topic I hope it's helpful to all I appreciate you and your ministry very much and look forward to being back on again with you I've got a new book on the atonement coming out in March bnh academic awesome what's the name of the guy yeah it'll be it's the atonement a biblical theological and historical study of the cross of Christ well I can't wait to see that I know that we we talked about on the trip to Malaysia we talked about how you could take segments of that book and and because it's such a such a big book as it is you could take segments of that book and and republish into smaller bite-sized segments because there's so many so many chapters within the book and even sub chapters within some of the chapters that are bigger than you know other people's popular books out there for example your rebuttal of of heaven from heaven from heavy kamisato is is the best rebuttal to date as far as I'm concerned from what I've read and yet a lot of people don't find it because it's buried within the larger context of that book and so I was challenging you and I'll tell you on the broadcast as well I'm challenging you man take some of those out of there and and reproduce them if B&H Carroll dude or somebody also do it and and publish some of those in the popular circles because I think a lot of those would be even more consumed because it's such good stuff that really does a great job just giving another side of things and you do a really good job of that and I appreciate your work well thank you for that yes in the extent of the atonement book there is 100 I have 100 pages in there which critique chapter by chapter every single chapter in the volume from heaven he came in solder and that would be its own book right there you know it goes through and it critiques that but this new book on the automa covers all aspects of the atonement generally but it also covers further information on the extent of the automa exegetically a lot of things I couldn't get into the extent of the atonement and one of the things that I have been asked was to write a second book that would be a kind of a volume two that would give more of the exegetical information on what's the problem with limited atonement and why is unlimited atonement a better exegetical choice this new book will do that awesome it will do other things too and on top of that it won't be as long pages in fact this new book will only be 350 pages so yeah easier to rate only 350 pages that's all that's great brother thank you so much for your time and we'll talk to you next time god bless my pleasure thank you dr. flowers thanks for attending our online university classroom remember this is a listener-supported ministry so please consider becoming a patron of the podcast by donating online join our team and help spread the word for more resources books and articles from professor flowers or to learn how you can support this ministry please visit www.gfi.com/webmonitor

Channel: Soteriology101

Views: 33,008

Rating: 4.6884737 out of 5

Keywords: Calvinism, Traditionalism, Arminianism, Predestination, Election, Bible Study, depravity, unconditional, atonement, soteriology, Leighton Flowers, Southern Baptists, Baptist, Southern Baptist Convention, David Allen, SWBTS, Southwestern, OSAS, Eternal security, Once saved always saved, can you lose your salvation?

Id: Qsjv4lx991s

Length: 105min 52sec (6352 seconds)

Published: Thu Dec 06 2018