Norm Finkelstein GOES OFF: Israel, Hillary, Human Shields & Ben Shapiro

hey guys hope everybody is enjoying your Thanksgiving weekend um I wanted to do a bit of a longer interview where we had some real time to Flesh on a lot of the complexities and the mythology surrounding the long-standing Israeli Palestinian conflict and also of course the context of this current war on Gaza and I thought to do that we'd bring in Dr Norman finlin who is an author Professor political scientist who's also studied this conflict for literally decades devoted much of his adult life to it authored a number of books on the subject in particular one that I'm reading right now Gaza and inquest into its martyrdom um to dive into all of these topics it's so great to have you Professor thank you thank you for having me yeah of course and um what I did in preparation for this conversation because I really wanted to ask all the things that people have been wondering about but maybe they didn't know who to ask or they didn't know how to ask it or they were embarrassed to ask it so we opened it up to our subscribers to really ask anything that they wanted to about this conflict so I hope this will be a wide ranging conversation that people find Illuminating I hope it'll be a challenging conversation we tackle all of the things that are uncomfortable about it and get into uh all of those pieces well I'm glad and I hope that you'll do what Candace Owens did where something doesn't sound right to you something doesn't sound logical to you something doesn't sound convincing to you ask me and I think I can connect the dots but sometimes when you speak rapidly you miss some of dots and so sometimes you need to uh home in and look at each dot to connect the pattern I will certainly do my best uh with all of that so the first question does actually come from our audience which I thought was a good starting point uh which is about your Origins can we start with just having Dr finlin give basic info on himself growing up and what formed his thoughts opinions on this issue and I was also curious you know what led you to this uh lifelong interest and scholarship on Israel and Palestine I grew up in Brooklyn New York my parents came over after the war as we called it the war meaning World War II uh they were in the war so getto they grew up in Poland they were in the wara ghetto from 1940 until 1943 after the ghetto Uprising was uh suppressed by the Nazis parents having survived the war so ghetto Uprising were deported to Mid their concentration camp my mother then ended up in two slave labor camps my father ended up according to my mother because I never actually asked my father um my father was in seven concentration camps ended up in aitz was on the aitz death march every member of my family and both sides Aunts Uncles cousins grandparents everyone was exterminated during the war as my mother used to say to us growing up we are just five people in the world and that was literally the case I grew up in a lower middle class neighborhood my parents were not lower middle class they were working class uh however they were determined to give us meaning the children the crack at the American dream and so we grew up in a lower middle class neighborhood but excellent schools uh the high school I attended among the graduates of my high school or Chuck Schumer Bernie Sanders Judge Judy five believe it or not five Nobel laurates attended my public high school uh uh Norm Coleman the senator from Minnesota uh we got a very solid education no question about that uh and Jews were back then very ambitious uh and uh they got to realize in large part the American dream most of my friends are spectacular success stories uh so that was how I grew up uh on the surface I was just one of those graduates of James Madison High School in New York but if you scratch the surface I was kind of an alien being because my parents were survivors of the Nazi Holocaust they had by any conventional standards very eccentric politics uh they were totally Pro Soviet Union totally Pro Stalin they wouldn't broke any criticism of the Soviet Union or Stalin in my home uh and so I grew up having to adjust to the fact that in many ways I was an outsider and I had to accept that uh I had to learn to live with that status actually the most traumatizing aspect of my youth of my childhood because I could never really assimilate what happened to my parents when they would read books about the na Nazi Hol is a very young child um you know okay not young child You' say around 13 years old I would be reading a book an account of the warsa ghetto say Leon uris's um uh Leon uris's Mila 18 or John Hershey's the wo and I remember I'm reading the book glancing down at the text and it's describing these Jews in the warau ghetto and they're in these things called bunkers uh and these catacombs and everybody's starving to death in this ghetto and then I'm looking up and I'm looking at my mother and I just couldn't I literally I couldn't make the imaginative leap from what I was reading uh to the what you might say the uh mundane existence of growing up uh ordinary home in Brooklyn New York um but also as I said I learned to be an outsider from a very early age uh the most traumatized in event of my youth as I mentioned a moment ago was I was in bar mitz and in a Jewish neighborhood that was literally was Unthinkable because AB Mitzvah was kind of the equivalent if you're not Jewish of say if you're a young woman it's a coming out party where the family uses the occasion to display its wealth display its Earthly success and all of that and uh I didn't get to pass through that ritual and it was it was actually quite humiliating um so I I would say from a quite young age I had grown inured to the fact that I was in many respects an outsider how I got involved in the Israel Palestine conflict was really Serendipity I'm not sure if Serendipity is the right word because that usually means chancing upon a happy event um it was all by chance in June 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon uh the War lasted for 3 and a half months the estimates are Israel killed 15 to 20,000 lebanes and Palestinians overwhelmingly civilians I got involved in the protests around the Israeli invasion of Lebanon and at some point I started to study the conflict and then it turned into my doctoral dissertation uh in Graduate School uh and then as I was doing the research search for the doctoral dissertation I stumbled upon this National bestseller it had just come out it was called from time IM Memorial and it it was heaped with praise and this was going this was the book it was said that was going to change her understanding of the whole conflict uh I was curious because I was writing my doctor dissertation On a related aspect not on that aspect of the book and I then after a s ously uh examining the book its footnotes and its internal logic and coherence uh I was able to demonstrate that this inter this National bestseller which the whole Jewish intelligencia uh class had Heap Praise on the book was a hoax and at that point I guess you could say I now plunged uh into this area of intellectual inquiry and political activism and if I stood it stood by it for 40 years it's because the conflict never ended I'm not a quitter it's just not in my nature I am very stubborn uh except when it comes to truth and facts if you convince me I'm wrong I will concede I'm wrong My Credo in life has always been never quarrel with facts if I'm wrong I simply have to acknowledge it and move on otherwise I'm betray my principles sometimes I see a fact and I see I'm wrong and I try to weasle my way out of it in my mind and at some point I say Norm stop you're wrong accept it acknowledge it because that's a Bedrock principle for you and move on so um I will not be stubborn about facts if I'm wrong however I don't give up on the cause I'm not a fair weather friend and I don't blow with the wind and I don't think anybody has ever accused me of there so we have a you know everybody many people at home with friends and family over the Thanksgiving holiday weekend A lot of people with a lot of thoughts and opinions on what is unfolding right now in Israel and um and their war on Gaza and you know a lot of people feel so overwhelmed by the details of this conflict because it is so long-standing there's all these different potential peace deals there's all these different facets of the conflict that they feel incapable of arguing a position coherently so uh one of the questions that we got was can you give a sort of cliffnotes version or give just the most essential facts so that people feel like they can coherently uh and intelligently take a stand on what's going on now that's a very difficult question because any attempt to give a succinct or as you call it cliffnotes version of the history and the first question always is where do you begin uh Israel likes to begin in 2000 BC and if I were to go forward from 2000 BC to the present we would need not two hours we' need about two years so then the question is where do you begin for convenience's sake and I think for the sake of the essential context but what's happening now you have you should or you can begin with 2006 in 2006 the president of the United States as you recall was George Bush and one of his signature items on his agenda or foreign policy agenda is what he called democracy promotion and one aspect of the Democracy promotion was to encourage elections and the Bush Administration encouraged the Palestinians to hold elections uh Hamas the Islamic movement originally didn't want to participate because it felt that these elections were within the framework what was called and I'm not going to go into the the termin go into the meaning of the terminology it was called the oo framework which Hamas rejected however it did a V face and about face it agreed to participate in the elections and surprise to everybody Hamas won the election now there are two things to say about it number one Jimmy Carter who was monitoring the elections in the occupied Palestinian territories he pronounced the elections completely honest and fair in fact those were the first Democratic elections held in the modern Middle East the first in the whole region the first democratic elections held in the modern Middle East Jimmy Carter as I said pronounced them uh completely honest and fair uh the second thing to say about uh the election is that immediately uh as the election was the results of the elections came in uh and the result was not what the United States wanted I should make one point about that uh the people of Gaza did not elect or the people in the because it was a occupied territories election so it's the West Bank and Gaza they didn't elect Gaza because it was a terrorist organization they didn't elect Gaza because it was uh had said as his objective to destroy Israel it elected uh Hamas uh because Hamas ran on a platform that promised reform and Hamas itself a positive reputation for its role in various social institutions and the role in various religious institutions at the time I won't say what came later but at the time it was an seemed to be a reasonably honest and less corrupt organization than What's called the Palestinian Authority and it was because of the promises of basic reform that Hamas won the election when I say reform I mean social reform political reform and most importantly of course economic reform so that was why that's the result of the election as I said the United States was not pleased with the result and for example Hillary Clinton who's currently making the rounds about how she was trying so hard to promote democracy in the occupied Palestinian territories because she cares so much about the Palestinian people uh at the time or just shortly thereafter uh Hillary Clinton stated uh that the United States made a mistake it should have rigged the election that's Hillary Clinton's commitment to democracy that's democracy promotion the Hillary Clinton uh in the world in any event immediately as Hamas won the elections the United States I should say Israel Then followed by the United States and the EU impose these brutal economic sanctions on Gaza now before I get to those sanctions the first thing I have to do for listeners is describe what is Gaza Gaza is about 25 miles long less than the length of a marathon and it's five miles wide uh Gaza is among the most densely populated places on God's Earth uh right now it's by a wide margin as we speak the most uh densely populated place in God's Earth because half of it has been cleared out and that population in the northern sector has now been pushed to the southern sector and now Israel has plans to take the most the dense most densely populated place in God's Earth and push all the people and I hope you listeners will take it in because it's going to be unfolding as this program airs and push all the people in Gaza into an area the size of Los Angeles airport the population of Gaza Israel now wants to shove into an area the size of Los Angeles airport in any event Gaza among the most densely populated places on Earth um once these Isis I should say the population 70% of the people of Gaza are refugees or descendants of refugees they were uh 70% of the population and its descendants were expelled from Israel in 1948 during the first Arab Israeli War and they ended up in Gaza as their descendants and they lived in refugee camps for the last 75 years in Gaza um half the population of Gaza children that's another uh point that should be fixed in everyone's mind when you hear about the indiscriminate bombing the indiscriminate murder the targeted murder in Gaza about half of those targeted are children as of now more 70% of the 11,000 well now it's about 11,500 70% of those killed in Gaza are children and women that's called targeting Hamas in the official media accounts 70% are children and women that's the population of Gaza overwhelmingly refugees and descendants of refugees and overwhelming and 50% uh children now what does this blockade of Gaza mean that to me is the most salian fact which whenever I mention it even people who are reasonably well informed they're absolutely dumbfounded once Israel imposed the blockade on Gaza nobody could go in and nobody could go out except on the rarest of occasions Israel CL controls everything that goes in and everything that goes out there was a a period in time when Israel prohibited so many items from being uh accessible to G the people of Gaza that they finally reversed the list and just provide a list of what was permissible to pass through the gates of Gaza Israel banned chocolate from entering Gaza Israel baned baby chicks from entering Gaza Israel banned potato chips from entering Gaza there was a period where Israel calibrated the diet the caloric diet of every person in Gaza so as to enable a starvation plus a starvation Plus diet to be limited to the people of Gaza half the population of Gaza is unemployed has the highest population rate uh of any area in the excuse me the highest unemployment rate of any area in the world um 70% of the youth in G are unemployed so when you add up all the discreet facts that have just enumerated for you what do you get well the former British prime minister the conservative Prime Minister David Cameron he described Gaza as an open air prison then there's a senior uh Israeli security official his named comes up a lot lately uh as he lays out his maniacal plans for Gaza his name is Gora g i o r a island e i l a n d and in 20 2004 which is to say before the blockade was even imposed on Gaza in 2004 he described Gaza as a huge concentration camp so if you look at the Spectrum the Spectrum goes from open air prison to concentration camp that's Gaza so when we come to the events of October 7th we have to bear in mind that those young men who burst the gates of Gaza overwhelmingly and maybe entirely they were born into a concentration camp all they had to do day in and day out of their existence was wake up in the morning and pce the perimeter those 25 miles by 5 miles paced the perimeter of the Concentration Camp that's all they had experienced in their lives they had no past they had no present and as things looked on the eve of October 7th they had no future however that's only half the story the reasons of this program not with me not speaking through eternity I'll give you the other half very quickly the other half is periodically Israel goes into Gaza I can't list all the times because frankly I've never been able to commit all their operations to memory much as they try the list is too long but every few years Israel conducts with the calls an operation in Gaza what is the operation in Gaza Israel coined a very happy location it's called mowing the lawn in Gaza now my memory is correct Crystal you have three children correct correct yep so i' like you right so I'd like you to bear in mind I'm not trying to be emotive I'm not trying to be dramatic but I also am trying to paint for your listeners a realistic picture of what's been done to those people Israel mows the lawn in Gaza and that lawn has 2.3 million blades of grass that's the population of Gaza one half of those Blades of grass 1,50,000 are children and Israel coined if I dare say and the listeners can decide for themselves whether on being emotive or whether I'm being factual it coined this satanic phrase which it repeats on every occasion with a certain amount of humor it's funny we're going to mow the grass in Gaza and everybody Smiles isn't that a clever cute expression I wonder if you would smile the mother of three knowing that among those Blades of grass that are going to be moan mold are the heads and skulls of your children operation castled 2008 2009 December 26 to January 17th Israel killed 1,400 people 350 of whom were children demolished 6,300 homes mowing the grass of Gaza then 2012 operation pillar of defense then operate 2014 operation protective Edge 51 days of mowing the lawn operation castled in 2008 to9 Amnesty International wrote a large report on what happened it called it 22 days of death and destruction mowing the lawn in Gaza 2014 Peter Mo the head of the international Committee of the Red Cross he visited Gaza and he saw what Israel had inflicted 2200 people killed 550 of them children 18,000 homes vaporized he came out and he said now bear in mind Peter Mo's job is to visit combat zones and he said never in his entire professional life had he seen destruction of the magnitude that was inflicted in Gaza in 2014 so we're told now that the Story begins on October 7th and when a moderator has a guessed on the first point of business is of course you have to condemn what happened on October 7th because that's we're told where the Story begins it's as if in a slave uprising like our own Nat Turner slave Uprising you have to begin the story because Nat Turner and his uh band of in insurgents they killed a lot of innocent men women and children no question about that in very brutal ways but it's as if you have to begin by condemning Nat Turner because of those horrible Deeds he had committed but you're not allowed to mention the fact that hey not Turner was was born a slave he was born a slave he lived a slave and as things looked on the date of his Rebellion he died he would die a slave that was his past present and future is that an irrel is that an irrelevant aspect of the story of course not and so for me I think that you can um um understand the history and the context and how it led to these events while also aboring the loss of innocent civilian life but I want to ask you there was a question directly in response to to this analysis from you a combative question let's say from our audience that I wanted to get you to respond to um this person writes given that you essentially cannot hold Hamas accountable for anything past or present and suggests they are simply acting under the conditions they find themselves in how many Israeli civilians would be too many for it to continue to be considered a simple consequence of freedom fighting so far there might be, 1400 they've revised to 1200 but let's say it's just a few hundred would 14,000 140,000 1.4 million at what point would Norm say that the loss of Israeli civilians was too great to justify a resistance movement what's your response to that question I guess my response is as follows and those are fair questions I've heard them those are fair questions I'm not going to provide a threshold where it becomes intolerable I've said what there there is no there does not seem to be any doubt as of now that significant atrocities occurred on October 7th I have said that in every interview and I think my reputation is as such that it won't be construed as me trying to protect myself I don't protect myself with anything except facts logic and truth and facts logic and Truth compel me to acknowledge where I resistant to the fact compel me to acknowledge atrocities occurred so there's no dispute between myself and your interrog and your questioner there's no dispute about the atrocities the question is understanding those atrocities you couldn't find a single word By Me In which I condone what happened on October 7th I have repeatedly said I won't condone but I won't condemn now you might say crystal and your questioner you both might say that that doesn't S sound consistent if you acknowledge atrocities have occurred then how can you not condemn the perpetrators of those atrocities and I do see a logical problem there and that's why when I was trying to think through this question I went back and looked at how the abolitionists those white folks not entirely white folks obviously they were black abolitionists but the celebrated white abolitionists people like thus Stevens Wendell Phillips William Lloyd Garrison Charles suner the the heroes of that era how they uh reckoned morally parse the N Turner rebellion in which as I said 60 white people were hacked to Pieces the heads of babies were chopped off that's a fact and William Lloyd Garrison in the journal he edited the Liberator he had an article in that Turner and he acknowledged atrocities occurred but you can and look through that look read every sentence of that article he does not condemn the not turn of rebellion he couldn't he couldn't in morally good conscience because every day of his life he bore witness to the degradation to the humiliation to the laceration of the black slaves he bore witness to the auction blocks where these slaves were measured examined and sold off and in good conscience he couldn't find it in him to condemn what condemn not Turner he condemned the atrocities for sure but he would not condemn Nat Turner and when I read that I have to say it morally resonated with me because unlike a lot of people who are now weighing in and judging the young men who burst free the walls of Gaza concentration camp and unlike like myself who spent 40 years reading those human rights reports on what has been done to the people of Gaza they're all quick to pass judgment on those 1500 maybe 2,000 we really don't know men who burst free I in good conscience could not the difference between myself and others is one the knowledge I find it very painful to this day when I read reread my own book my own book in preparation for the past month to speaking on what happened on October 7 my inners rise arve in disgust at the whole world passing judgment on this godforsaken people so if my position seems contradict contradictory it's number one because I don't think it's an easy moral question to resolve and number two unlike everyone else I don't have in my mind this image of Hamas this evil criminal organization in my mind I see the young people with no past no present no future periodically this satanic power Ms the lawn of Gaza kills their mother or kills their father or kills their sister or kills their child would I on October seven not be filled with rage would I on October 7th not be determined to exact revenge for that horror that nightmare that had been inflicted on me for no reason on God's Earth from the day I was born you know the biblical adage there for the grace of God go I I don't know how I would have reacted and I won't pretend to be better than the people of gosip I won't so one of our um questioners uh again on the same topic said why not simply apply and uphold Geneva con conventions in all instances when it comes to Israel when it comes to hamas's actions and they point in particular to the uh Geneva convention's law of armed conflict article 51 subsection 2 or additional protocol 1 which states the civilian population as such as well as individual civilians shall not be the object of attack I think there's a confusion here I just said I think three times I acknowledged atrocities were occur occurred I applied the Geneva Convention I acknowledge atrocities occurred but that to my mind and we can disagree it's a separate question from the moral judgment I am going to pass over those young men in Gaza so I would also say I'm all for applying those what's called what's called IHL International humanitarian law I'm all for its application my my problem is where do you begin under International humanitarian law the blockade of Gaza is illegal it's a war crime it is collective punishment a war crime in fact since it's lasted 20 nearly 20 years it began in January 2006 since it's lasted nearly 20 years it constitutes a crime against humanity so I have to ask your questioner why do we begin with the war crime excuse me why do we begin with the atrocities that began or unfolded on October 7th with without remembering that the impetus of that event on October 7th was the fact that these young men were the victim of a crime against humanity that had endured from the day of their birth till October 7 we're also eager we're also eager ger to condemn the crime on October 7th but I was around and I was documenting that crime against humanity that began in 2006 that's the part that's forgotten I condemned the atrocity on October 7th how many people condemned the two decade long crime against humanity that these young men endured how many people even cared frankly how many people even knew about it so you you mentioned a little while ago that our former Secretary of State and former first lady Hillary Clinton has been making the rounds laying out her argument for why she is opposed to a ceasefire even after all of the many civilians um who have been killed by Israel in this conflict um she laid out her argument in Atlantic peace she said that ceasefires freeze conflicts rather than resolve them in 2012 freezing the conflict in Gaza was an outcome that we and the Israelis were willing to accept but Israel's policy since 2009 of containing rather than destroying Hamas has failed a ceasefire now that restored the pre-october 7 status quo would leave the people of Gaza living in a besieged on Enclave under the domination of terrorists and leave Israelis vulnerable to continued attacks it would also consign hundreds of hostages to continued captivity she also made an appearance on The View where she uh bolstered this argument with her version of some of the recent history let's take a listen to a little bit of what she said there the problem predates October 7th and I think that's what President Obama was talking about because let's remember this is a very long and complicated history yeah my husband with the Israeli government at the time in 2000 offered a Palestinian state to the Palestinians at that time uh run by Arafat Arafat the p and the PLO the Palestinian Liberation Organization which by the way took out of its Charter violence against Israel so you got to separate the Palestinians who believe that there is some future of peace with Hamas which believes it has to destroy Israel those are two different organizations and they have to be viewed in that way Arafat turned that down there would have been a Palestinian State now for 23 years if he had not walked away from it there was another attempt when I was Secretary of State to try to you know bring the Palestinians and the Israelis together that didn't work out Hamas came in and basically destroyed all of that and killed a lot of Palestinians so I think when President Obama says that it requires us to look at the history and of course history holds all of us accountable so what is your view of EX except Hillary Clinton who destroyed Libya history holds all of us accountable except Hillary Clinton but let's leave that aside what I would like you to do Chrystal is simply ask me one specific question from that she made many many statements she talked about 2000 when her husband presided over the uh attempted peace agreement she talked about Hamas how Hamas destroyed everything she talked about ceasefires don't exist uh you would not have time for another question if I were to go into all of that so you use your you know you use your intelligence you're very smart which aspect do you find most um qu uh challenging and then I'll try to answer it uh going through the details well one of the uh claims that she made there which I hear repeated often is that uh it was on the Palestinian side that peace has been rejected and she says there that Palestinians could have had a state now for 23 years had yaser arat not walked away from the deal that uh her husband was attempting to craft so do you agree with that assessment what does she get wrong there well she gets everything wrong and I'm going to try to explain why I do know the details and you'll I hope the listeners will forgive me for going into the details there have been four basic issues to try to resolve this conflict between Israel and the Palestinians okay issue is number one borders what where should the borderline be drawn between Israel and the Palestinians the Palestinians accepted the position of the International Community the borderline should be drawn where it was before the June 1967 war that is the whole of the West Bank including East Jerusalem and Gaza would form an independent Palestinian State alongside Israel the Palestinians accepted the position of the International Community all the legal bodies in the world the international court of justice all the political bodies the UN General Assembly everybody accepted the Border should be What's called the pre-june 1967 border or the whole of the West Bank including East Jerusalem and Gaza would be the Palestinian State side by side with Israel Israel rejected that position Israel wanted a part of the West Bank in its last offer in its last offer it wanted approximately 8% of the West Bank so it rejected the international community's position number two under international law East Jerusalem belonged to the Palestinian State because under international law it's inadmissible to acquire territory by War Israel acquired the east east Jerusalem the West Bank and Gaza in the course of the 1967 war it had no legal title to East Jerusalem the West Bank and Gaza Israel rejected that position of the International Community it said it wanted parts of East Jerusalem number three there's the question of the settlements that Israel has built in the occupied Palestinian territory Tories approximately now 700,000 settlers illegal settlers under international law in the West Bank all of those set settlers are illegally in the Westbank right now as we speak engaging in a lowlevel at this point ethnic cleansing in the West Bank Israel wanted to keep under its sovereignty Approximately 80% of those settlers and finally there's the question of the Palestinian refugees and their descendants under their descendants since 1948 Israel said that it would not allow any of those uh refugees to return under What's called the right of return the the international law which says uh refugees have the right to return to their homes after the cessation of hostilities Israel said no now on all of those questions borders Jerusalem settlements refugees on all of those questions the Palestinians were willing to make concessions and in in 2000 in the year 2000 President Clinton put forth what were called the parameters December 2000 parameters for resolving the conflict all of those parameters required concessions from the Palestinians on the basis of international law none of Clinton's parameters requir concessions from Israel on the basis of international law now I want the listeners to hear the bottom line in January 2001 both the Israeli side and the pales in the Insight accepted what we called the Clinton parameters with reservations both sides said we accept with reservations it is factually untrue President Clinton who's an extremely smart guy extremely smart guy with a voracious intellectual appetite he's unfortunately also an exceptional liar and in his Memoir which I read he simply lied about what happened to his parameters that he put forth in December 2000 and Hillary Clinton who is apparently quite smart also as smart as her husband I'm not sure but no question a very smart woman she is also an inveterate to the point of pathological liar that's not you know I'm not talking I'm not trying to be um I'm not trying to be uh uh at hominin I think there's quite a lot of evidence going back to why she lost the election that she's a pathological liar she literally can't see the lies that she's uh uttering so those are just factual questions where I can say with a great deal of confidence because I've read the entire diplomatic record and I'm willing to debate anybody on it that what she's saying is false it's doubly false it's false because the Palestinians accepted the terms for resolving the conflict which have been developed and ratified by the whole International Community just to give you one example every year every single year the United Nations General Assembly passes a resolution called peaceful settlement of the Palestine question and every year it lays out the terms which I just described the terms of the settlement are anchored embedded in international law every year the vote is the whole world which is to say approximately 190 countries on one side embracing those terms including the Palestinian representative organizations and on the other side it's usually the United States Israel and several south sea Islands the Marshal Islands palow Tu Valu Tanga on the other side now if any of your listeners have doubts which surely they have the right to all they have to do is Google peaceful settlement of the Palestine question United Nations General Assembly and that resolution will come right up on the screen it's a little more complicated to get to the voting record but with enough uh conscientiousness and Ingenuity which I lack on the web I don't know anything about computers um they can easily find the whole world on one side the US Israel and some South Sea Island atoles on the other side that's the real record and if Hillary Clinton wants to debate me on it or her husband I'm perfectly happy to do so well and I would be perfectly happy to moderate that debate I think that would be great for the country to see um and I would say you know with with uh Bill Clinton it will be a challenge but I he's a very smart guy no question about it uh but I'm willing to take that challenge so with you know acknowledging that hindsight is 2020 and we've the advantage of sitting where we are in 2023 and looking over this entire historical record are there any moments where you feel like Palestinians were failed by their leadership where if a different decision or a different action had been taken we might be in a better place today I would say there are two separate questions one is the goal and in my opinion the goal was completely legitimate because it was trying to settle the conflict in the basis of international law and I don't think there is really an alternative framework for trying to settle the conflict and then there's a separate second a separate question whether the Palestine leadership made maximum use of its opportunities to force Israel to the negotiating Table and there I would say the record of the Palestine Liberation Organization the PLO and then subsequently the Palestinian Authority the record is not great however I want to be very careful about this I do not believe they made the maximum use of available opportunities however it should never be forgotten that both the Palestinian Liberation Organization the PLO and Hamas they both attempted nonviolent civil resistance and in both cases that nonviolence civil resistance was brutally suppressed by the Israeli government now I don't even know how far your memory stretches back but in 1988 the Palestinians engaged both in GA both in Gaza and the West Bank they engaged in nonviolent civil resistance called it came to be called the first in the first Revolt nonviolence civil revolt against Israeli the Israeli occupation the Israelis under then defense minister uh defense minister Yak Rabin imposed the policy which was called in public the force might and beatings policy in which they brutalized the Palestinian population engaged in nonviolent civil resistance they engaged in massive massive torture of Palestinian detainees during the first in they according to Human Rights Watch they tortured tens of thousands of Palestinian detainees during the first inada in fact the current editor of Atlant Atlantic magazine Jeffrey Goldberg he was a guard in one of those detention facilities and in his book his Memoir called prisoners he describes how he personally this is the editor of Atlantic magazine which currently features the article by Hillary Clinton he describes how he personally escorted Palestinians in the Detention Center to the torture chamber he was personally an accessory to torture during the first in and then let's fast forward to what Hillary Clinton calls in that article she calls Hamas an extreme terrorist organization so this extreme terrorist organization in March 2018 attempted nonviolent civil resistance the young people and the older people the men and the women in Gaza marched to the perimeter of the Concentration Camp what did Israel do I hope people's memories aren't so short it assembled along the perimeter of the concentration camp it's snipers and who did the snipers of that beautiful state who did it Target well we have a very excellent human rights report which describes who they targeted here for your listeners is a list of the types of targets beautiful Israel the only democ Ry in the Middle East who did it Target it targeted children it targeted Medics it targeted journalists and it targeted people with physical disabilities it targeted young men in wheelchairs it targeted young men on crutches so you can F both groups the PLO and the Hamas leadership for not maximizing the opportunities to force that state backed by the United States to settle the conflict but let it never be said that one their goal was beyond reason no their goal or their goal was extreme their goal was what the the International Community in all of its manifestations called for namely a settlement based on the principles of international law and number two Let it never be said that they didn't try nonviolence they tried it and they tried it and they were brutally mercilessly mowed down by the Israeli State that's the fact um I wonder if you could give the strongest possible case for the Israeli view of the conflict um you're not only a scholar of the Israel Palestine conflict you're also a scholar of the Holocaust so coming out of that history of of deep trauma that your own family was afflicted by wonder if you could lay out what how you think they're viewing this conflict and why it ends up being so different from the way that you and I are are looking at it I'm listening closely to your questions and those are reasonable and important questions I would have to say two things number one if we were talking about the past I could see because I strongly believe in the principle of trying to establish a devil's advocate argument and then trying to argue against The Devil's Advocate however I don't think that's possible now because right now at this moment we are talking about a genocide unfolding in Gaza and it would be a sin against man and a sin against God to make a devil's advocate case for genocide unless you're willing to accept Nazi principles as a Point of Departure namely legitimizing extermination since I don't believe any of your listeners would accept that that Bedrock Principle as one Bedrock principle that extermination is okay then it makes no sense to lay out so to speak a devil's advocate position because there will be no agreement on the Baseline Israel is trying to commit a genocide in Gaza right now about that it's very clear it doesn't even pretend to hide it it's saying we're not going to let in any food food water electricity or fuel well that's genocide even to a civilian population then well that's genocide that's not complicated so uh at the moment I couldn't lay out a position because nobody would accept the Bedrock uh argument that genocide is okay it's okay to exterminate the people in the case of the past why what's the best argument against Israel or for Israel what's the best argument for Israel the best argument for Israel is it has the right to break the law and that's what Israel has said all along Israel has said all along because of what Jews endured experienced during the Nazi Holocaust they should not be held to the same moral standard as other other states that they should get a pass because of what happened to them so if Israel did as it did if if Israel did as it did do it legalized torture there was a period in Israel's history where they legalized torture well they would say what about the Holocaust there was a period where Israel legalized the demolition of homes as a form of punishment when they were asked well what about the Holocaust so they've used the Holocaust not just as a moral uh Alibi but as a right that has been that they have been endowed with because of what happened during World War II and so then it's up to your listeners whether you accept that that Israel has the right to break the law because of what it experienced during World War II Israel was the only country in the world to have legalized torture Israel was the only country in the world to legalize hostage taking the high court uh Barack he called it bargaining chips Israel was the only country in the world to legalize house demolitions as a form of punishment it's very unique and the argument has always been by its apologists well what about the Holocaust and then that's a judgment that your listeners have to make I say by the standard of international law in all of its Dimensions be it the human rights Dimension be it the terms for settling the conflict Israel is and has been in a greous violation of the law and you can see that in the international court of justice decision in July 2004 which I'm not going to go through right now because we going into the weeds and I will lose listeners so I think the record is unambiguous unequivocal that Israel is a systematic and egregious violator of international law in all its dimensions and then the question comes to what you just said okay but then what's its best case and that's a fair question and I think its best case is the case Israel has made all along namely that given what H in light of what happened to Jews during World War II they have a right to do that and there there it's just for you what you know it's your uh uh listeners to decide some of them are going to say well yeah you know what I think they do have that right to break the law and others will say well the law is the law and nobody gets a free pass now Israel wants in the name of uh the Nazi Holocaust to commit a holocaust well that's what they're doing I mean that's not uh that's not exaggeration they are right now turning Gaza during the Filipino war in the turn of 20th century 1900 during the FI there was a province in Revolt called Luzan the United States was trying to occupy Phil and one of the generals during the Filipino War he said we're going to turn the densest resistance was in Luzan Province Lu zo and one of the uh American General said we're going to turn Luzan province into a howling Wilderness that phrase always stuck with me and that's what Israel is doing now to Gaza I go I W I woke up this morning and I was reading an article and it said B hanon which was a place I knew had 35,000 people in Northern Gaza and it's not there anymore there's nothing there was a very a vivid article by Patrick Kingsley of the times who I loathe uh well occasionally a word of Truth passes through his lips and he said he was taken on a tour of Northern Gaza by the Israeli Army a control tour mhm and he said at one point he was in this completely level lend and he said he turned to the general uh the commanding officer he said where are we and the fellow name the name of the place and he describes in the article he was bewildered because he had spent a lot of time in that place as a journalist for the time he had no idea where he was there's nothing there he said the only constant is the is the Mediterranean wow the see there's nothing there you could not find your home in Gaza that's Israel's goal that people will have nothing to return to and so they'll leave leave where we don't know yet yeah right now they're trying to put all the people the 2.3 PE million people of Gaza into a area the size of Los Angeles airport to force Egypt to open the gates of Rafa and take them so and why well the Holocaust did you see the times coverage one day it would say one of the people taking hostage was a survivor of the Holocaust oh yeah that's very possible my parents survived the Holocaust I buried them 30 years ago 1995 but they managed to find a survivor of the Holocaust always dragging it in dragging in what became the Mantra of the latest uh event what's the Mantra the worst massacre of Jews since the Holocaust can you tell tell me what 1400 people being killed has to do with the Holocaust aitz killed no I'm serious in aitz 10,000 Jews were gazed to death a week 10,000 a week what does it have to do with 1400 yes 1400 is a horrible number I'm not going to deny it but can you tell me what that has to do with the Nazi Holocaust but always drag it in drag it in AB aen the former foreign minister of Israel he famously said you know the Hebrew word for Holocaust is showa s h o ah and he famously said There's No Business Like Show a business and that's what you see now let me ask you you're always dragging it in to extenuate excuse exonerate let me ask you a question related to that because this is something I hear a lot and something that are um a number we got a number of questions about this what's a good response when someone proposes that well it is undeniably true that Israel quote does bad things it only gets a disproportionate amount of attention because of anti-Semitism for example how to respond to someone who says there are Muslims that are severely persecuted ethnically cleansed all over the world but only Israel incites this kind of international ire and it's because people hate Jews what is your reaction to that well there are many arguments you could have made in the past but now Israel is in a very unique situation number one by the third week by the third week of the current operation Israel had killed by the third week more children than children killed in every war zone in the world combined for the years 2020 or the year 2021 or the year 2022 I remember I was in one debate with a fellow named Eli Lake I mentioned that statistic at that point the number of isra Palestinian children killed was um 3500 and very skeptically Eli Lake said more than in Ukraine and then I went home and checked do you know how many children have been killed in Ukraine in 20 months 500 at that moment when I was in the debate you know how many children were killed in Gaza 3500 number two now we can disagree about this and my memory may not be perfect and I as I say I don't quarrel with facts but I cannot remember a single conflict in my lifetime where a state was openly blatantly and flagrantly targeting hospitals that's a new threshold of barbarism the most sanro San institution in any Society do every Manner and form of protection inviolable under International custom has become a target of legitimate attack by this state in terms of density of bombing it's the most densely bomb bombed area Gaza of any War Zone in the 21st century so if it's now getting disproportionate attention by some people's reckonings it might possibly be because it's carrying on disproportionate crime in real time before our eyes to your point about the targeting of hospitals we got in a question that asked what do you think was Israel's real motivation to storm alifa hospital did they really expect to find a complete Hamas Command Center if not what could be their actual objective and um just as a side note we're recording this Monday November 20th just this morning there's been an additional IDF release of you know a tunnel system that they claim that they located some 50 m long and some video um that they uh claim shows hostages being led into the hospital for treatment okay let me get to the goal and then let me get to the specifics the goal is in my view this is speculative I I can't enter the minds of the Israeli leadership I would say number one Israel is always testing the threshold how much will the International Community tolerate if you get away with targeting hospitals that sacrosanct edifice of Civil Society then you can get away with genocide if you can Target injured people dying people in a hospital then why can't you kill everybody so right now in part it's a probe operation how far will the International Community let us go number two alifa hospital is the largest hospital in Gaza it was at the time of the Israeli attack alifa was holding 60,000 people not a small number and if you T tar alifa you're targeting what remains of gaza's civilization it was the as it were epitome it summarized Gaza civilization I know some people in the audience are laughing Gaza civilization very funny yeah it a penize Gaza civiliz ization and therefore by destroying it you are dealing a lethal blow a death blow to all that Gaza stood for now about that alifa hospital let's remember as the New York Times wrote the other day that Israel claimed there was this spring command and control center in which were ensconsed the leadership of Hamas and the hostages and in the times wrote that the 11,000 people killed at that point which was last week those 11,000 people killed were quote in part because of the claim that alifa hospital housed beneath the ground the command and Control Center and then Israel produced all these fantastic images and videos of this Hamas command and control center this intricate ramified control center with multiple stories that was beneath the hospital and of course that was completely lunatic and from early on I was engaged in this thing called tweeting I don't know Twitter or Tweeting or but they have a very nice young crew of techies who have connected me uh to social media I've never been on Facebook I've never been on any of that stuff so I began to tweet I feel humiliated even saying that I began to tweet from early on this is completely ridiculous Israel is always claiming Hamas has got Hamas leadership in its basement I went back to 2008 went through the whole thing so what did we find well here's what we find so far they were in the hospital for for three days now you really have to listen to this because the credulity I would say the pathological credulity of the media has to make you laugh so they they bring in reporters and the reporters see a hole in the ground a hole in the ground and they're told this probably leads to tunnels but we can't go in the hole because it's booby trapped really we can't go the ho because it's booby trapped well every time Israel goes the Gaza it claims that homes are booby trapped that's why it says it blows them up and I'm thinking to myself well let me see here Israel invented this miracle they call Iron Dome right that's the anti-ballistic missile system anti-missile system so these Geniuses the Israelis they invented iron Dome the miracle they called it of Iron Dome which deflects incoming missiles in the sky and shatters them to Smither Rines but Israel hasn't yet figured out how to deactivate a booby trap as it figured out every time Israel mows the lawn in Gaza it says we have to blow up all the houses because they're all booby trapped they've been doing that since 2008 probably much earlier but I don't know Rec and they haven't yet they figured out how to smash to Smither incoming ballistic missiles but they say to the reporters you can't go down because it might be booby trapped and we don't know how to deactivate a booby trap I would suggest that if you go into any town of more than 1,000 people in the United States the police know how to deactivate the booby trap but Israel hasn't figured it out now Israel says it discovered the tunnel 55 meters long 55 meters is about half a city block okay okay half a city block that doesn't sound to me like a Hamas command and control center which has multiple stories and we're told if you look at the images and when you put this program up you can Flash just say just uh Google Israel images Hamas command and control center yeah we've played it their their animation of what they projected it look like right for me I'm obviously 10 times your age so there was a program when I was growing up called The Man from Uncle Uncle stood for the United Network command for Law and enforcement it started uh started David mallum and Robert V and it was a spectacular command and Control Center and the way you entered it there was a tailor shop it was called Del florus tayor shop and then you went into the dressing room you closed the curtain and then you entered Del florus uh uh you entered through the dressing room a trapdoor you entered the Man from Uncle headquarters and this is like the man from Uncle so so here's the news story here's the news story um they showed us 55 meters and then they said there's a door there and we can't go through the door can't go through the door because behind the door that's where the command and control center is but we can't get past the door it's a very thick door you know very thick door it began to sound like if you remember one of those pornographic films from theuh 70s or 80s was called Behind the Green Door not familiar with that one it was famous like I am curious yellow these were landmarks you when I was growing up there was a lot of uh pornography litigation uh there was I am curious yellow deep throat uh Behind the Green Door and any offense this was like behind the Hamas door and you know I used to live in an area a very tough area called Washington Heights and there was a lot of drug activity in my area actually the drug dealers finally drove me out literally he was in was running down the street not pleasant not a happy memory I wasn't a happy camper that day and then any event um the steel doors were very common any NYPD team knows how to knock down a steel door behind which are the drug the armed drug dealers but the greatest army in human history the IDF it executed a war that defeated all the AR armies in 1967 in six days all the Arab armies it thefeed in six days but they haven't figured out how to knock down the door and behind that door is the command and control center you know the whole thing is so laughable it's so idiotic but that's the Israelis they count on it you know why they count on it why is that they count on it because they know they can get away with it in the United States they know they could say anything and still get away with it in they only need they only basically need Joe Biden to be buying it at this point and apparently it seems like he is thus far um I wanted to ask you though I would say that's a very technical term what you mean by him buying it that assumes he's mentally able to process it and at this point I don't think that's that should be assumed Fair um I want to ask you though in this related uh question of human Shields quote unquote human Shields and I've heard you speak about this before and your uh analysis and your review of you know international human rights organizations and the evidence on the record you say you don't find any evidence that Hamas has used human Shields and the reason I have a question about this is because first of all some of their statements which I'll get to in a minute but because as you said Gaza is so densely packed it almost seems to me like it would be impossible not to have military ass assets close to civilian populations even if that wasn't you know if human shield wasn't the goal so I wonder just speak to that and give us maybe what your definition of a quote unquote human shield is well look excellent question and these are the questions which I spent 40 years of my life trying to come to grips with understand and so I'm very happy that you're asking those questions because they will lend clarity to the truth under international law there are two relatively distinct Concepts one is human shielding now human shielding shielding has not been to my knowledge and I think I'm right on this point has not been legally defined it's what you might call a term of art okay and human shielding basically means as it's understood by most human rights organizations though as I say it's not been legally cut mod ified it basically means the conscripting the forcible conscripting of civilians to either Shield a combatant or to Shield a military site that would be human shielding the evidence on Palestinian militants Hamas Fighters engaging in human shielding is near zero I have quoted at length but I won't do so now the findings of Amnesty International during the 2 89 operation protective Edge and they found in a report I referred to it earlier the 22 days of death and destruction they found no evidence evidence of human shielding now there's a separate concept as I said relatively distinct the second concept is called quote taking all feasible precautions to protect civilians if you're fighting in a civilian area so sometimes times as you point out if you're dealing with or you're you are amidst the most among the most densely populated areas in the world you inevitably are at some point going to find yourself resisting from population centers and then the rule of international law is you have to take all feasible precautions now of course because you're uh you have a facility and fluency in the English language the key word is feasible what at any particular moment might be feasible to protect civilians if you're engaged in fighting in a civilian area the only thing I could say is human rights organizations have accused Hamas in situations not every situation but in situations of not having taken all feasible precautions now that's only half the story because the other half of the story is human rights organizations have volum ously documented Israel's use of human Shields Palestinian human Shields so let's take an example that goes back to something we just talked about occasionally Israel enters a house which it fears might be booby trapped what does it do it uses pales Ians as human Shields to preedee them as they enter the house and say walk down a staircase so the fact is yes there are voluminously documented instances of Palestinian of human shielding I remember the instances during operation defensive shield in 2002 when they invaded Janine in the West Bank and they took Palestinian they would enter a home um and then use the home as a base fire from Windows and they would put Palestinians in the windows and fire from behind them so yes there has been human shielding in the occupied Palestinian territories human shielding committed by Israel but the only question we're allowed to entertain is how extensive is Hamas is use of human shield that's the only relevant question is real human shielding it's not even a question because it's not acknowledg that it exists it's like before October 7th nothing happened in Gaza the whole history the whole documentary record is Whited out as your generation likes to call it it's erased and eraser so uh related to the the human shield question the Hamas official gazi hammad recently said in an interview um this was a translation we must teach Israel a lesson we will do it twice and three times the Alexa flood um is just the first time there will be a second a third a fourth he continued will we have to pay a price yes and we are ready to pay it we are called a nation of Martyrs and we are proud to sacrifice Martyrs uh how do you interpret those sorts of comments number one in the United States anybody who's on the you know to the left on the political Spectrum we always like to use the Peace of the the the the wisdom wherever there's oppression there's resistance so as a factual matter what he's saying is true except if the whole population is exterminated which is I think there's a reasonable possibility that large numbers will be wiped out Gaza will turn into a howling Wilderness and Egypt will have to open its Gates and resistance at that point in Gaza will be very difficult because there won't be a Gaza but barring that eventuality yes he's correct there will be one there will be two there will be three guess what Crystal ready for this brace yourself there was one there was two there was three many slave revolts in the United States are you shocked by that are you shocked that slaves kept revolting is that a shocking admission when he says we're going to continue to revolt until the walls of this concentration camp are broken down I'm not shocked by that the second part of his um admission oh my God he said we as a people are going to resist until we get their Freedom hey maybe he heard Patrick Henry say Give me liberty or give me death that's such an odd notion I was reading woodston Churchill's famous speech during World War II the other day where he said we're willing to starve we're willing to die in order to vat the Nazi uh horror Menace whatever he called it when we say that that's heroic that's courageous it's a Hallmark of our civilization that we're willing to be martyrs in the pursuit of freedom but suddenly when he says it it conjures up jihadis suicide bombers it suddenly becomes Sinister to say that you're going to fight to the last for your freedom Give me liberty or give me death another question that I thought was um was a good one and worth worth tackling with you uh this individual writes if you think there should be a ceasefire what is is your plan for afterwards a ceasefire and then what look excellent question because people don't ask those questions that's an excellent question now if a ceasefire means that the Palestinians are going to continue to live in peace in the concentration camp that ceas fires obviously not going to hold up that's perfectly obvious because if you freeze the situation as it is now the Concentration Camp remains in place so I'm not going to pretend that Palestinians gazin the Gaza leadership is going to acques to a ceasefire into eternity that's obviously a morally depraved and an intellectually insane proposition unless you assume as Israel has always hoped that the Goins will simply languish and die in Gaza they will be forgotten they will just languish and die but baring that eventuality of course a ceasefire camp on its own of course a ceas fire can't be sustained over a long period of time and I'm not going to pretend that people in Gaza are going to abide by a ceasefire that leaves them to be born Live and Die in a concentration camp so in my view the demands now at this moment have to be ceasefire now end the blockade of Gaza and stop the ethnic cleansing in the West Bank but those are immediate demands what has to come afterwards is what I've said already to you to the point of tedium there has to be a settlement on the basis of international law because there's no other framework for resolving the conflict the International Community agrees in that framework there's not been any significant descent except for the United States and Israel and therefore the ceasefire has to be followed with a reasonable period of time I can't give the time because the figures the statements now coming out of Israel are in order to rebuild Gaza would take five years in the northern part there's nothing there it's gone right it's been vaporized so I can't tell you when but I will not pretend that even if a ceasefire is reached which Israel opposes and the United States opposes and Hillary Clinton opposes even if it were reached that it would be permanent because permanent means the people of Gaza permanently confined to a concentration camp last question that I have for you which is another audience question that I thought was uh was very interesting do you believe it is permissible that as an American with no familial or ancestral ties to Israel or Palestine that a person cannot side with either group during this conflict both groups have and are doing wrong to one another both have understandable grievances that should be heard or is there there a moral and Civic onus on an otherwise apolitical and nonpartisan American to do enough research to have strong enough reasoning to choose a side so in other words do you think it is morally incumbent on people to educate themselves on this conflict sufficient enough that they take aside okay number one has nothing to do with familiar or blood or lineal connection I hate to sound like an Old Testament prophet I am old but I'm not a prophet nonetheless for me and I think it should be for everyone the issue is not blood tie lineal tie or any other tie it's just about what's true and what's just if Israel what they were doing were true and it was just whatever my personal feelings about it might be I would have to support them but number two is the question you asked I should say the second part what I'm talking about was implied in the question now let's get to the literal question obviously it's not within any individual's capacity except maybe Professor chsky it's not with any individual's capacity to master every conflict in the world and to possess sufficient factual information to render a judgment of right and wrong for most Mortals here I'll exclude Professor chsky that's not possible however I have to enter two caveats two reservations caveat number one this current moment does not require Mastery effects a genocide is unfolding in real time before our eyes and so all you have to do is ask yourself a question do you think it requires a Mastery of facts to render a judgment on whether or not it's right to deny food water fuel and electricity to a civilian population one half of which is children can you I'm asking you I'm asking you as an intelligent woman yeah as a mother can you imagine any circumstance in which you would say such is the circumstance that I have to agree to deny any food water fuel electricity to one and a half million children no to me the current the current moment is not complicated at all the history is very complicated you know the details of all the peace deals all of that very complex but the current situation to me is very cut and dry actually exactly and number two the problem is not that people don't know the facts the problem is the people in power lying and lying and lying and lying about the facts that's the problem I excuse ignorance the other day I was on with two I did two interviews uh not two I've done so many but with both Michaela Peterson and Candace Owens and each of them began by saying I really don't know anything about this conflict and I appreciate that I appreciate the humility you come in and I thought of course why should you know you know Gaza is a postage stamp on the world's map why would you know more about Gaza than you would know about a country in Africa that's I I get that so that to me it's completely understandable and doesn't raise any significant moral questions but her father Michaela Peterson's father Jordan Peterson is a very sick liar that's a problem to me when he comes up and he says he's asked by Piers Morgan what caused this conflict he says well I'll tell you what caused it it was Iran rattling the chain of Hamas what are you talking about Israeli intelligence doesn't say that and then you get you get um candex Owens colleague Ben Shapiro who puts out these videos with one ignorant lie after the other not even sophisticated lies so ignorant so imbecilic so Shameless so ridiculous so Preposterous that to me is the problem I on a moral you know on a moral level I remember my mother once said we're talking about Poland no during the war during her experience during the war and she said I never held it against polls Polish people who wouldn't help us because she said you know in Poland if you help the Jews during World War II they just shot you dead you don't get a trial you are Aiden the better the Jew boom you're shot dead and my mother never pretended to be a hero and I think in the back of her mind she thought I wouldn't open the door okay so she didn't fault them she said what she faulted was the poles who stood along the wall of the ghetto and were gleeful as they saw what was happening to the Jews those are the ones she passed judgment on but my mother held by the addage there but for the grace of God go I I wouldn't let them in my home if a Jew is fleeing and looks to my place for looks to my home for refuge and it's the same thing here ignorance is an excuse because the world is a big place many conflicts you can focus on one or two most mortal people but everyone no not possible but when you are a person of power or prominence and you're using your uh position to disseminate the ugliest the stupidest the most idiotic lies I have a friend in Ben Peter Ben Shapiro in his current video the first two minutes it's about ancient Biblical history okay my friend her name is dbor makabe she's the daughter of Haya makabe the fame British Jewish historian and she happened to look at that video cuz because I had been writing about it and she went through just the first two minutes she said I couldn't find one statement that was even remotely accurate not one about Joshua about the name Palestine and then she mapped out for me this huge scolly undertaking she's going to expose every lie in the first two minutes in the first two minutes and these people use their power and their position to lie as Israel conducts its genocide in Gaza those people are revolting revolting they're also revolting cowards Mr Shapiro you know so much why don't you debate me where's the problem you like to to defend college students I suppose you deade people in their second trimester but how about debating an adult who studied it they won't complete cowards cowards and criminals criminals Dr Norman finlin I know that you are very much in demand right now and so I'm extremely grateful to you and our audience is grateful to you for taking so much time with us um anywhere you want people to follow you on Twitter um is there any one of your books in particular you would recommend to people my my teis will kill me but the answer is I don't even know how to tell somebody to follow me because you have to go through these steps on the web and I don't know what what what it requires my books I I I try not to I don't like to come across as profiting From Misery but if you want background mine is really the only book out there it's um Gaza and inquest into its martyrdom and um that's the one that I've been reading and I would also recommend it to people so it's it's great to see you thank you so much and again thank you for spending so much time with us my pleasure thank you for having me of course hey guys if you like that video go to breakingpoints outcom become a premium subscriber and help us build the best Independent Media organization on the planet that's right we're subscriber funded we're building something new we want to replace these failing mainstream media organizations so again to subscribe it's breakingpoints tocom

Channel: Breaking Points

Views: 556,273

Keywords: breaking points, krystal ball, saagar enjeti, Piers Morgan, norm Finkelstein, israel, Gaza, Hamas, hostage, Iran, hezbollah, Biden, Netanyahu

Id: EFbdKdwqlZw

Length: 116min 19sec (6979 seconds)

Published: Sat Nov 25 2023