So who's heard of this guy, huh? Let me let me ask you guys, how many people have read this book? I'm telling you guys, there's a lot of really good principles in this book. So let's let's if we can. Chris, there's people here
that haven't studied you and don't know you yet. Let's just talk a little bit
about your career. I know it,
but I'd love to hear it from you. All right. What's the short version? I grew up in Iowa. Small town going to law enforcement
cop in Kansas City, Missouri, for a few years, joined
the FBI, FBI hostage negotiator. Ultimately, I'm in charge of globally
international kidnapings response to any American
who gets kidnaped anywhere overseas. My job to figure out a negotiation
strategy to get him out while I was still with the FBI started
working with Harvard to learn about negotiation
because we had a case of go back, went bad, talked about it talk about in
the book was an ugly train wreck. People got killed and decided
we had to get better started collaborate with the guys at Harvard Law School
Harvard program on negotiation. And while I was there, they said to me,
You're doing the same stuff we're doing. It's just the stakes are different,
but all the dynamics are the same. Get out of the FBI, decide we're going to
adapt hostage negotiation to everything. Business colleagues, family, you name it. It works across because it's emotional Intelligence
is applied emotional intelligence. Now, it's interesting
because there's a lot of things I want to talk about in this book. I've literally read this
at least a half a dozen times, studied it, had study groups around it. The one of the most amazing things is that you mentioned
this negotiation is not a battle. No. Right, exactly. Yeah. And I think a lot of times
people think it is. Yeah. So can you walk through that a little bit? Yeah. Well, I mean that everybody worries
about negotiation. A person
you think you're going to count on the other side
is you expect to be attacked. And most of the self proclaimed
great negotiators, they like to attack. They see it as combat.
They want to do battle. But in point of fact,
if you're in a negotiation with somebody, both of you are faced with different
sides. The exact same problem, and you need to work together to maximize the outcome. And as soon as as soon as you go
into collaboration out of cutthroat, you make more money. One of our one of our top
performing coaching clients. And we just
we gathered this group together in Las Vegas just a couple of days ago
because that's where I live. And he said, When you taught me
collaboration, I made more money being collaborative
than I ever may, being cutthroat. And he was good at being cutthroat
and had tasted how good that felt. Or what he likes more is
all the extra money in his bank account. Yeah. And so being collaborative
is a key to make a lot more money and fewer enemies. What are what are some of the the art of
disagreeing without being disagreeable? So that's that's an art
that you maybe have to practice. Yeah, well,
I mean, you got to practice anything. I mean, it's all an art and a science
combined and everybody learns everything. But yeah, like, if I disagree with you, especially,
you know, my tone of voice could. Could tell you that I don't like you or that I think you're stupid or that I'm insulted, you know, so. So the real beginning is the phrase, how am I supposed to do that? Which is the opening story
in a book. Book? Like a lot of people
have turned deals around by just looking at the other side
and saying, Am I supposed to do that? That's the best. And, you know, I could just change. I go, How am I supposed to do that? And my tone of voice insults you. Or if I'd say,
how am I supposed to do that? I mean, I'm inviting you to collaborate
with me. You know, let's figure this out together
and let's not be enemies. And that's
that's a way to be disagreeable without, you know, disagree,
without being disagreeable to say it. Nice. I know in reading your book,
there was all kinds of scenarios I can think clearly about Some of those
bank hostage situations you had. Right.
How do you draw out that information? It's really easy and really
counterintuitive to get somebody talking, which is, first of all,
you give them a chance to talk and then they expect you to disagree
or correct them. Like real soon, like most people, if they listen at all,
they only listen long enough to disagree. Go. Aha! Or he's a counterpoint. Yep. And so somebody old start talking
just to test to see how long it takes you to be disagreeable. And when you're not,
then they just start to open up a phrase and hostage negotiation is what
it's going to take to get the bad guy out. He's going to tell us
if we shut up long enough and actually listen. And then there's different triggers the way you can get stuff out of people
real quick again. And I'll give I'll give all you guys one here
that we're giving everybody right now. Anybody that you talk to here, as soon as you get the chance, instead of asking them
where they live or what they do, ask them what do they love about where they live? Or ask them what do they love
about what they do for a living. Now you're going to find out
where they live or are you going to find out what they do? But if you start there,
I mean, that's an emotional state change. You know,
I learned a lot from Tony Robbins. He talks about state changes all the time. If you ask somebody,
what do you love about what you do? I ask this of my Lyft driver
on the way to the airport the other day. They immediately transform into thinking
about that aspect of their life that they love. And you could see them change in the moment,
whatever kind of mood they're it. That's the intentional application
of emotional intelligence. As somebody a what or how question. Which triggers
a certain type of thought drop in the emotion, the emotional place
you'd like for them to be and watch
them transform in front of your eyes. Let's see. We could get into some of the techniques. One of them that I love is mirroring. You know, I've watched your masterclass. You're all over the Internet.
Can you talk a little bit about that? Obviously, I've seen you talk about it,
but never in person. Never in person. Nice. You tried. Did you try to hook me? It? Yeah. The mirror. Mirror, mirror is a really cool
skill. It's not. It's not you
know, it's not the body language mirror. It's it's not the physical thing
or tonality thing at all. Like, you know, a lot of people teach you. I was going to marry him. You know, I put my hands up like this,
and it's physical alignment. And when people develop rapport, you know,
they tend to start to physically align. Then the people that I don't trust
start that right off the bat. And I'm always very concerned about somebody tries to physically mimic
me or mimic my tone of voice, and they're going to take me someplace
that I'm not particularly I may not want to go. I find that is very that's
a very highly manipulative technique. But the hostage negotiators mirror
the Black Swan. Mares Just repeat in the last couple
of words of what somebody said, it's ridiculously simple. I find people who have simultaneously
very high IQ. I am not high IQ,
very high IQ, very high IQ, love it because it's so simple,
like minimal amount of effort. Get the other person
talk and keep them going. Then when you go from repeating
the last three words of what they said and you move it around
and you pick three words here, any time
anybody says something that you want clarification on, you can say,
What do you mean by that? And they probably won't do a great job
elaborating. But if you marry those exact words,
the message you send is, I heard what you said. I got the words. It's not quite enough for me. What do you mean by that?
Could you please go on? That's all rolled into the mirror
and people respond to it incredibly and it's a great thing
for keeping conversations going. Let's talk about the
the three kinds of. Yes. Commitment, confirmation and kind of
I love this part. Can you explain that a bit? Yeah. You know,
so many people are trapped by. Yes. You know, Yes. Momentum. Momentum selling,
they call it. Yes. A micro agreement or tied down. And then theoretically, you get the three
tied downs and you got them tied down. They've got to make the deal. Well, everybody's been hustled
at some point on that. Everybody's used it. Everybody's been flimflam to bamboozle
with the momentum. So consequently, as soon as somebody tries
to get you to start to say yes, like, where's this gone? How are you telling me down. What, what,
where's the trap? Where's the hook that you're
trying to set on me? And that's why the counter for Yes. Is the vast majority of the yeses. I mean, even if it's not counterfeit, the
most a yes ever is is aspirational even. Or even if it's somebody
that wants to do it. It's aspirational.
Yes. Is nothing without how and really. Yes, is nothing. And how is everything? So everybody that we coach,
we like get out of the business. Just get out of it. Because if you're not an easy business, you're not getting tripped up
by counterfeit. Yes. Or inadequate. Yes. Or they didn't think it through. Yes. I mean, all of a sudden nonsensical. Yes. Is it just lead to train wrecks broken deals, lack of implementation,
broken trust? What's the best way people can reach you? Our website is Black swan
l2 dot com black S.W.A.T. and LTE AECOM. We got a lot of stuff there that's free. We got a weekly newsletter
that's complimentary, it's actionable. There's a lot of stuff
that's either free or inexpensive to help people
raise the level of their game. Well, we're all great really here, Chris. Thank you, guys. Thank you both.
Thank you. I should.
