Neuroscientist and Philosopher Sam Harris | Full Interview | Code 2021

[Music] [Applause] so for those of you that don't know sam sam is a neuroscientist author of five new york times best-selling books is also um got a meditation app called headspace and a very popular no waking up waking up i thought that was a great joke and uh and then um making sense is your pod yeah yeah so break down the state of the world um okay you described the nature of civilization as a combination of a psychological experiment and a ponzi scheme your turn yeah i guess i was thinking well with the psychological experiment i was thinking mostly about what media and social media are doing to our minds i mean we are we have been enrolled in what is clearly a a a psychological experiment of sorts it's not hasn't been designed to bring us any knowledge of the human mind or the world but we're getting a lot of knowledge and we're getting a lot of we're getting a sense i think at this point that uh this merely connecting people and giving them unlimited access to information and an ability to silo themselves whether by design or by algorithmic happenstance into echo chambers of various kinds it's pretty clear that's not good for society at this point and it's just it's becoming more and more obvious to many of us that things can really go wrong when even especially the most advanced societies can't get to ground truth of any kind when we can't convince ourselves that we know anything about the way the world is when misinformation is ascendant or there's just so much misinformation mixed in with the truth that everything can show up as a kind of half-truth you just um uh it's impossible to figure out how to cooperate with in our case 350 million strangers you know much less 8 billion strangers and that is the task of civilization to figure out how to create a durable basis for cooperation where in the best case even fairly mediocre people can behave better and better and more and more creatively because the incentives are aligned and there's and there are institutions that work and um we're we're witnessing the i think a significant unraveling of all that just based on the amount of noise that has been introduced into our thinking about the nature of the world so a connective tissue that is the truth are you talking about science and what do you think has eroded this truth or this fundamental belief that there is a connective tissue well there's been a a fairly terrifying breakdown of trust in institutions and for understandable reasons in many cases i mean you know as i've complained a lot on my podcast about this most of our institutions have been captured by this um ideology of you know the kind of a social justice kind of moral panic you know in my view it's not that there's no social justice problems to rectify there obviously are but um and obviously i'm now striking a note that is quite discordant with what you just heard from chelsea uh who i've argued with about these things but you have like last week the lancet you know the preeminent medical journal of one of probably the five best medical journals on earth is now referring not to women but to bodies with vaginas right now this is whatever you think about the politics around trans rights and i'm i'm super liberal on on that point this is where scientific rationality and the english language go to die right when we can't actually use the the word woman as a noun in a medical context or in any other context without fearing for the that there's going to be a witch-burning you know based on the on a kind of activist culture uh that has been leveraged by by social media and uh that you you have seen that kind of capitulation to dogmatism and bullying just writ large across our institutions media academic corporate and it's um it's it's not being exaggerated it's often spun even by your co-host on your podcast is being exaggerated but um it is also in reaction to you know very troubling trends on the right you know i mean we have um you know just sheer craziness around the the um what should be a unifying insult to civilization this pandemic right the fact that we cannot get half of our society to agree that the pandemic is even a thing and yet they're they're terrified to take the vaccine for the we got half of our society that thinks that covet is really no factor but the vaccines for covet are terrifying right and the fact that that got flipped around and we can't unflip it is a is a failure of of conversation and the institute was crucial is that the institutions themselves are so distrusted uh you know whether it's government or science or media that it's you know just citing the journal nature or citing you know the cdc is synonymous for half the country with a you know just a just delusion you know you're just doing the work of of a discredited institution but if you think about three pillars of the truth if you think about academic institutions which i think about a lot think about the media and you think about the courts i would argue that the courts are the only one that have sort of done their job the academic institutions used to be the pursuit of truth now it's the pursuit of support of a narrative by whoever's most persistent and loudest which institutions do you think are holding up and which ones do you think are breaking down the fastest well the courts did some necessary work around the election that that was definitely true um i i you know it's hard to take the temperature from outside of any of these institutions and it's hard to know how bad things could get next week and at some level you're only as credible as the last thing you said right this is true for all of us personally basically it doesn't matter how much status you have in our society you're basically one tweet away from witnessing the ruination of your gravitas and your reputation um you know or two tweets let me let me just i'm channeling care right now i call it council culture she calls it accountability culture like who would cancel you you have your own podcast you can say offensive thing i mean canceling means you're usually your employer or your department revoking tenure or firing you or the new york times kicks you out but aren't you i mean you're pretty insulated i mean are do are you really is is cancelled culture really a a fearful thing for you isn't it isn't it just quite frankly that occasionally you're wrong and you get called out uh well no but it's uh the truth is i've taken just immense pains to be very hard to cancel because of the kind of things i want to talk about and so i consider myself to be unusually insulated from this problem but i'm very worried about it on behalf of others because i hear from the people who are in our institutions who can't speak right who will privately uh agree with me and and and say oh i'm so glad you said that but they're they're you know within their own lives professionally they're they're seeming to be uh part of a silent consensus on the other point right i mean because they're not making waves they can't afford to make waves and it's amazing the people you know probably many of people in this room who can't who feel they can't afford to strike a a any kind of note of counterpoint to these prevailing uh to to what is essentially a catechism in our culture i mean for instance if you're if you have any kind of public profile at all and you're going to wonder out loud whether systemic racism is as bad as is being advertised right or whether um whether the you know whether the trans issue among teenage girls has any element of social contagion to it right i mean these are completely valid things to worry about and talk about and i would argue we have to talk about these things in order to get to whatever the ground truth is there in any instance but to say either of those things even if you're someone like jk rowling right jk rowling is as uncancelable as an author is on on earth in our lifetime really and she was very close to getting cancelled and i would argue that if she weren't jk rowling if she was if she were an author you know merely of our stature she would have been canceled her next book wouldn't be published um but when people are opening theme parks to express the the brilliance of your eyes that's the key theme parks that's the that's the that's the kevlar billion billions of dollars you would think billions of dollars should be the key but there's so many people who are immensely wealthy who do have you money but they can't actually say you in the current environment to this to this this kind of tension but you can't you have to be able to diagnose a problem so how did we get here like what was it is it over correction is it that we're angry about things so we find fake perpetrators how did we get if we don't understand how we got here we're not going to be able to figure out a path out what were the trends that got us to this place assuming people believe that that maybe there is something amiss well we got here it depends what variable you're talking about like on something like race obviously we got here through a long history of odious racism in our society right so we had a lot to atone for or correct for and that work is not yet fully accomplished no doubt but we have made immense progress right and there are many people in our society that seem uh to want to uh behave as though we've made no progress at all or you know it's just it's a simulacrum of progress it's a false progress and um [Music] we're really at some kind of crisis point here with respect to the variable of racism in our society and uh that it's what's crucial is not what any one of us believes about that what's crucial is that we actually can't talk about it civilly within our institutions right i mean because the moment you get three sentences down that into that conversation someone's going to call you a racist right and that's that's such a um a despicable thing to have thought about you so it's so reputationally nullifying that no one can afford to take that chance no one wan at least they think they can't afford to take that chance and yeah so if you're a professor if you're an ordinary journalist if you're you really have to think about whether it's worth rolling the dice with your career yeah at this moment over that thing and that's true on many other issues but again obviously there's a there's a reason why we were all held up against this fun house mirror of what was happening in trumpistan for four years and that seemed to give uh credence to the sense that okay there is there's a tipping point on the other side right there's this there are people walking around with tiki torches saying jews will not replace us right and um so that you know this derangement on both sides is understandable but it is that there is an asymmetry here that you know that some people will disagree with me about but i think is real which is the far right really is still the fringe even even with trump um it's not in terms of in terms of cultural influence you know if you know that the nazis do not have real cultural influence right the white supremacists don't have real cultural influence the people on the far left who are uh bending our conversation who if you just did a keyword search replace in what they say everything they say sounds like a ku klux klan pamphlet right i mean it makes absolutely no sense if you flip it they have immense cultural influence i mean every school in the country and certainly every private school and many public schools are being everything's getting filtered through this this um you know woke outrage machine and again it's not that there's no truth in it it's not that there's nothing to worry about with respect to race and and uh and class which strangely is never never gets talked about but but you know wealth inequality is an immense problem that we need to get our arms around and if you solve for that in a race-blind way you would you would be benefiting all the right people you know according to what what the left's agenda is um but no i mean we have we have new forms of segregationism you know we have you know we have people you know areas of schools where whites we shouldn't enter right because it's there's a there's a social experiment uh underway where it's just this is the multicultural area and if you're a white person who wanders into it you're you're um you're guilty of some kind of desecration and this is i mean i think the crucial thing to understand is that the the goal has to be to get to a society where we care less and less about the superficial differences between people not and and it seems to me patently obvious that the path there can't be a matter of caring more and more about these differences in the meantime you know it's just we and that's what that's what is essentially what's happening on the left and it's um so people who people who were actually living in a post-racial society in the sense that they weren't they they simply did not care about the color of anyone's skin right or the gen anyone's sexual preference or you know gender identity right i mean there were many many people living um truly ethical lives having broken out of this this again what was really truly a toxic past with respect to those forms of bigotry they're getting pushed back they're being told by this corner of the culture that no no no it's it's too soon to say that it's going to always be too soon to say that you're post-racial or or you know truly uh blind with respect to these these differences among people these differences have to be ramified they have to be acknowledged [Music] you as a white person have no stand i mean chelsea just said it from this chair you as a white person have no standing with which to say anything about race right that's madness right it's absolute madness yeah and and the goal for us ethically and intellectually has to be to arrive at a time where we don't care about these things we simply don't i mean no more than we care about hair color right i mean like i just imagine if we were coming from a time where people had been discriminated against based on hair color well then yeah obviously that would be totally perverse and progress would look like getting over that you know and the only and you don't get over that by um you certainly don't get over that by making patently false allegations of racism or sexism or or homophobia where those things manifestly don't exist right and we've seen endless examples of that sort of thing where truly good ethical people are getting canceled for you know a joke that misfired right that was that was not or simply using a using a term uh to talk about the term right not not as a slur but just like in an intellectual context like you know in in you know to be to to be talking about a term in a book in in english class you know talking about huck finn or whatever the book might be or using it in a context where the only purpose of using it is to say this is this is how this word it has to be avoided in our in in um specific moments these are being these these words are being treated as magically destructive literally like the term voldemort i mean just like just you you've uttered the word that is the that is the crime that that demands punishment even when everyone knows that you are not a racist right like you didn't use it if to the contrary i mean there are examples of people who've had their careers destroyed where everyone who was calling for their cancellation knew that they were they were being used as a scapegoat again to to show allegiance to this this new doctrine right which and it's so it's it's a very childish relationship to language i mean among the many other sins intellectually that we might cite here it is it's a it's a relationship to language that is just not adult right we have to we have to find the adults in the room somehow and get them to to guide the conversation and the problem is our institutions have been so captured that uh they're they're not showing a willingness to do that right it's just the incentives are all wrong i mean and strangely the incentives are wrong even when you're rich enough to have cashed out to true to essentially be invulnerable right uh materially at least uh that's that's precisely the moment where you know a a leading venture capitalist or a leading ceo will say well why would i it up now right like why like this my i've got a great life why i don't want i want to go near this with a 10-foot pole right and it's totally understandable it's just what it's doing is it's creating a an environment where honest conversations can't be had in public and um you know i would argue that it's it's diminishing moral progress or even rolling back progress on these insofar as we still need to make progress on these specific issues so you said a keyword incentives and it strikes me at least in the environment i operate sometimes in campus that to be offended is to be right and to get status and also and this is a technology conference so the incentives and i'll put forward a thesis and you confirm or push back on it but you said something that struck me that you become where you you become what you pay attention to and if you're on twitter it's you there's incentives to make a caricature of someone's comments find a weakness and a soft the soft tissue of what they said take it to an ugly place and then dunk on them and the algorithm loves that because people weigh in on both sides saying you're making a character that comment and then someone else says yeah you i mean and then identity politics weigh in and there's 50 or 60 comments the algorithm promotes it because it's the algorithm loves violence and more nissan adds a more shareholder value it strikes me that these platforms have made our discourse more coarse if you look at everything the most the greatest damage they've done is that we just show up with an incentive system to to see someone in their worst light right do you think that technology has played am i overstating technology's role in this no i think we're uh we will say things to one another and about one another on social media that we would never say face to face i mean at minimum it would be modulated by the the face-to-face uh demand of just the other person's presence right and not to say nothing of the possibility of compassion and mutual understanding and having that person not simply react to you after the fact but to react to in real time as you're get you know straw man in their their argument or whatever it is um but yeah we have this there's a propensity now especially online to hold another person to the least charitable possible interpretation of something they said and no matter how they try to take their foot out of their their mouth or try to take your foot out of their mouth go after them it's just you hold them to that and even when it's it's manifestly untrue it's it's a you know in many cases it can be a the complete inversion of what they meant in context people just double down and double down until the the cycle moves on to another topic so i asked to do this because sam has had a profound impact on me and one of the things you said that changed the way i approached the podcast is you said when i ask you for solutions and that is when you're interviewing somebody you want to set them up don't be afraid to push back but you want to set them up to give the best version of their argument so we can really really look at it in a fair light yeah and i found that what i i thought was the right way to approach media was to try and play gotcha call people out use my intellect and you know facility with words to twist their argument and then boom and you have talked a little bit about one of the keys to the repair is to be generous enough to give people the opportunity to reflect themselves in their best light can you comment on that and other what i'll call practices i don't call it gratitude practice but like a healing practice that maybe we start teaching you know at a fairly young age to help reverse this trend of trying to position people for failure and coarseness yeah well on the point of not doing gotcha interviews i think that there are certain norms among journalists that i object to i mean this is and it's different depending on the context so on television or on radio there's less of this uh at least you can't be completely misconstrued because you're you're saying whatever you're saying i mean editing can can go against you but in a print interview you really can just just give a totally distorted version of what someone has said or meant um yeah so on my podcast i yeah i give someone every opportunity i tell them up front that if something comes out wrong or they if we get 10 minutes into part of the conversation and they realize that's not what they want to talk about we can we can cut it you know i'd never want to i want i always want the other person no matter how much i disagree with them to be happy with their side of the conversation because that's the that's the thing if it is if it has anything like the character of a debate that's the thing i want to successfully deal with right not you know when they when they just said that the dumb thing when they i mean really it's i i want to get people at their best and i i don't want um and it's and i can you know it's not live it's not live television right so this is so i can edit it and it just seems like a common courtesy um and that said i still have had conversations that have gone fantastically off the rails you know so it's it's it's not it doesn't protect you from from really sometimes even painful disagreement but i think we we have to think about personally and collectively what kind of lives we want you know what kind of worlds we want what kind of world we want to live in and it really does come down to even more than time i mean we all have this this notion that time is the one non-renewable resource we don't know how much of it we have and we don't get a minute back and you no matter how i mean and one of the advantages of wealth which you know you have spoken about scott a lot is that it it's a bit of a time machine in that you you can just outsource everything you hate about your life and it's and uh that really is you know one of the amazing things about being wealthy enough but even there you can't get a minute back if you've squandered that minute and so so even more important than time is attention right and and uh the question is the question the question around you know what constitutes a good a good life and how good life can be really is answered i mean there are many variables but when you're talking about people who have who have solved several problems around survival and you know political chaos and you get to a point where you know i'm sure all of us in this room are at that point where the real challenge is to figure out just what you want to do with your life right you can do more or less what you want and you can do it more or less with the people you want and then the question is are you wanting the wrong things are you captivated by false goals are you um is there a voice in your head that is making you far less happy than you you might otherwise be and is that polluting is the stress of all that you know polluting your relationships um and it really does come down to what you're doing with your attention in each moment and this is you know i know there's been other conversations about psychedelics and perhaps meditation here and that i mean the really the the promise of those practices is in transforming what is available to attention in each moment and i mean just how how good can you feel um how fully can you untie the knot of of self in each moment that's keeping you inward and unavailable to your better judgment and your um interpersonal wisdom and your just the the love you know you can feel uh for the people in your life like it's so you have the people who you know you love you know your spouse and your kids and your friends and so much of the time you're actually not you know i'm not speaking about you personally but you know one all of us you you're thrust up against your inability to actually feel the love you know you feel in the abstract right it's like like it's it there's just and when you when you realize that this is this is this is not a dress rehearsal for anything this is the show right all of that is so tragic right it's such a tragic missed opportunity that then i think the demand is to become serious about how what are you doing with your attention moment to moment and then when you then when you when that's part of your framing for each day or each hour even each you know epic of five or ten minutes then when you pick up the phone and you see what some schmuck said about you on twitter and you feel yourself getting spun up into that [Music] then it really then it does seem like a colossal wastage of energy and attention and so much doesn't pass that that test and so much of what we built into our lives and have trained ourselves to care about doesn't pass that test what do you find are the most common barriers between us and our more loving selves well it is it is this contraction we call self it's real it really is this yeah i mean i mean they're they're again they're layers to this onion and but the old for me the ultimate layer is there is this illusion that you know virtually all of us are captivated by more or less all the time that there that we are not identical to experience rather we're having experience from some position in the head as a self there's a subject riding around in in the the car of our body right i mean we don't feel identical to our bodies we kind of feel like we have bodies and we are a self that is that is uh worried about the future you know and regretful about the past and not entirely at ease in the present moment and and can't and and feels that it needs to lurch from one positive experience to the next in the hopes of of that that the sort of the area under the curve will summate to to a happy life but i was just watching this um documentary about anthony bourdain i don't know if any of you saw it it's on netflix now um roadrunner i think it's called uh and i didn't know him but i mean here's a classic case of someone who from the outside looks like he has everything and and and brought so much joy to people i mean when you saw what the outpouring of love after his death i mean that was not an anomaly that was that was a direct expression of just how much joy he had brought to people so here you have a life where someone is doing exactly what he who's free to do exactly what he wants he's doing something that that almost everyone envies you know it's he's just it's amazing go anywhere you travel the world you go to these great places you have engaging conversations with people you you you export all of this to the rest of humanity in in terms of in in books and shows that um they find uh incredibly uh entertaining and then you reap all the rewards of the adulation associated with that and yet he you know obviously he was profoundly unhappy and i mean that is the you i mean there are endless numbers of examples of this this kind of thing but you really only need one to show you that is not a matter of just getting more peak experiences right it can't be because all of these experiences are transitory nothing lasts and so if there is a deeper realization here a deeper kind of wisdom it has to be prior to gratifying the next desire it can't just be in this endless litany of desires each of which gets canceled by its object that you have successfully reached out and grasped there has to be something about the nature of mind that is already a basis for tranquility and compassion and and uh happiness and as the nature of that relationships expressing love what is the nature of that that satisfaction or that catalyst for being in the moment well i i think it's no i mean it's prior to that i think it's i think to have really healthy relationships mm-hmm you have to already be happy you know i mean that's i mean that's your own math that's saying i apologize and i wanted to have a couple questions but i'm going to ask one more you said another thing that sort of changed my approach you said when i asked you about parenting you said you gave me a piece of advice you said don't always think of your role as the disciplinarian the person putting up the guard rails the person coaching occasionally not occasionally on a regular basis you just have to show love yeah can you comment on that and any other learnings you've had on parenting through um through um uh covet well i guess there's probably one piece of fine print there because you have boys and i have girls so you might have a slightly different responsibility to society than i do there but that aside i think yeah i mean i just noticed that so much of the time when i shift into teacher mode or you know pedagogy mode of any kind um it's so unrewarding right it's just so it's like it's it's it's not even when it goes well it's not nearly as good as just being delighted in their company you know and um yeah it's again we're incredibly fortunate and um you know there are many other situations to be in where you know there's enough chaos in your corner of the world um that there's just their fires that have to be put out but when when that's not what's going on and you actually are free to just decide how to be happy in the company of the people you love yeah i mean defaulting to love and just just enjoying each other's presence that's got to be where the where the um the center of gravity is you know question yeah scott enough freed with axios um maybe it's you know i am one of those uh women who was born without a uterus so i'm curious help me understand why it is that in order to deal with these massive issues climate change the virus etc why do we simultaneously have to dehumanize and delegitimize transgender and non-binary folks who are speaking their truth about their identity why i don't understand why those two things are in conflict yeah well i would just disagree with the premise of the question i don't think there's anything dehumanizing about using terms like woman and man to [Music] make a specific point i mean they're not intrinsically dehumanizing it's certainly not denying the reality of of of transgenderism or uh the the ethical commitment to total political equality there right what it what it is doing is it's policing the language in a highly unrealistic way and making scapegoats of people who are actually on your side right who actually want total political equality for people regardless of of anything really you know and so this is i mean this is something that it should be debatable i'm not saying the language never evolves i mean we we do learn to use new terms but it's having real world consequences we have in many states trans youth are not getting access to health care they're not being able to use the restroom because of the actions and the words these these laws are coming out of the actions and words of the people you're defending well but no no some of it is coming from a backlash and again we've got we've got two extremes amplifying the hysteria on both sides right and there is this there's just this violent pendulum swing even in the course of any given day between the two and what we need is a a reasonable middle that again is is committed to political equality right and and actually has compassion as its moral ballast right i mean it's just there's just there's no i mean there are things that are non-negotiable right and i mean perversely though as you go far further to the left you get really stark examples of moral confusion whether people who would who would castigate me for what i just said to you but are actually kind of agnostic about the treatment of women in afghanistan under the taliban right like who am i to say that that you know we're putting women in cloth bags is bad right that's an ancient culture they've just they've decided that on their own you know that's maybe my own colonialism and bigotry no no no you can't have it both ways right so there's there's a lot of moral confusion proximate to your side of this this debate and that has to be sorted out right and and i mean i would again it's a conversation what i'm really arguing for is the the the the moral emergency parameter that we've put over it right has to be relaxed right we have to we have to talk about the i mean what we have now is like a trigger warning standing in front of our entire civilization right from the point of view of the left and you're getting you're getting react i'll grant you you're getting a reaction from the right that is a another topic of valid concern right it is hostile and it's overreaching and it's amplified by real authoritarianism and in some cases you know you know theocracy right i mean you have but that starts with you saying i'm not a woman it continues acknowledging the reality your your situation only makes sense by first acknowledging the reality of the reality of biology right if you i mean the only way to discover that you're trans is to discover that you don't feel like compatible with the with the with the biology that it that that is that was on your birth certificate right but now we have people who are literally saying that you shouldn't put boy or girl on a birth certificate right that should just be decided later right because it's it's so toxic for uh for society to have made that decision you know at birth that's there's so many reasons why that isn't good public policy right but again what i'm arguing for is not any specific remedy now i'm arguing for a conversation where the temperature has been turned down right but that's not what's happening what's happening is that you literally have to be jk rowling not to have your life destroyed if you say what i just said about the term woman right and guys i apologize i just you know i apologize i just need to get to a couple thank you for the sense question uh sir are you waiting for a question yeah if you don't mind hey guys uh joe holder uh i have a i guess a quick statement and a quick question um the first one being how you talked about uh the so-called left having a lot of cultural power and amplification but how does that connect you think or which one you think might be a little bit more dangerous when compared with the right who might have a little bit more say power in terms of the way like the government operates in the united states so the juxtaposition of the kind of the cultural influence which seems to of course dominate the social media media online conversation but the real life creation of really the society in which we exist that the other polarized side has well i don't think the right has the power in the u.s at the moment maybe it certainly doesn't look who's who's president right look look at the look at congress right so we we it it arguably did have the power under trump uh although the truth is tru trumpism is its own phenomenon it's not even when you look at the level of policy commitments it's not even far right in most respects i mean it's you know trump himself is is a moral lunatic i mean don't get me wrong i think he's he he and his personality cult posed as a kind of existential threat to our democracy i think he's the most dangerous cult leader on earth at the moment um but he's not synonymous with the far right and white supremacy and and and all of that even though he's you know he himself is probably a racist of some sort um it's j and he gratified the far right it's not the same phenomenon and we're going to talk about the real far right it's just not has not captured our culture and it doesn't it it doesn't it certainly doesn't have the levers of power at the moment uh but i i will grant you as potentially very scary and and capable of violence and it's something we should be paying attention to and and uh so we're just going to do one quick question i apologize i was selfish i asked my own questions please sir quickly uh hi franklin leonard um so i i share an uh preoccupation with uh speaking sort of truth to orthodox these are challenging orthodoxies and i think it's one that you share um i'm curious given that challenging orthodoxy has always required the speaker to put at risk cancellation or much worse going back to galileo martin luther and more recently king james meredith christian smalls nicole hannah jones the folks that slide into your dms and tell you that they agree with you but they don't share your moral conviction to speak these things where is their sort of obligation to put at risk something of themselves in the way that everybody else has been challenging orthodoxies historically to speak their truth and why is it that they lack the moral fortitude to do so well i do think it's a genuinely hard problem in the current environment and it's hard even for somebody who has a lot of power and who might be personally insulated from from real repercussions but i i i one conversation i had with a vc who will go nameless uh for obvious reasons has stuck in my mind where i really pressed him on this and he said listen i have too many people relying on me for their financial well-being you know i've just i've got i've got hundreds it's like what i say you know on a podcast or or you know from any significant platform really could materially affect uh hundreds of people who i care about and it's hard for me to so we can debate any specific situation whether that's true but there's certainly situations where that might be true and and sounds all too plausible and so every person's case is different but yes i think generally speaking we all have a collective responsibility to step into some basic frame of sanity together you know and um we're i'm sorry starting into a basic frame of sanity we're going to leave it there thank you for the question sir thank you sam thank you scott you

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Length: 44min 33sec (2673 seconds)

Published: Mon Oct 04 2021