Neil Rogachevsky on Israel's Declaration of Independence

[Music] thank you hi I'm Bill Crystal welcome back to conversations I'm very pleased to be joined today by my friend Neil rochaczewski teaches at East River University assistant professor there and associate director I believe of the Strauss Center on Torah and Western thought a student of political philosophy and Judaism written on both PhD in history from Cambridge University so lots of diverse credentials that you bring to this conversation about israeli's Declaration of Independence and I guess most importantly that you've written a book that shortly to appear from Cambridge University press should have appeared already frankly but that's how University presses are I guess I shouldn't maybe we'll take this out of the final version so it's not to offend the Cambridge the powers that be there at Cambridge excellent book which I've read in galleys Israel's Declaration of Independence the history and political theory of the nation's founding Wilma that you wrote with your co-author uh Dove Ziegler so Neil thank you for for joining me today great to be with you Bill um I'm looking forward to this conversation and I I was talking yesterday telling someone a friend that uh we were going to have this conversation about Israel's Declaration of Independence and this friend who's well educated and interested in things Israeli and and zionists and 20th Century uh history and so forth uh said and I I must say I would have had this reaction a few years ago probably I didn't know there wasn't Israeli Declaration of Independence such as kind of striking that it's not considered you know it's not not something everyone knows about in terms of the founding of the state of Israel so uh maybe just say a word about what is it when does it appear you know what uh how does it fit into the the what was happening in 1948 and you know and just before that as well great yeah so May 14th 1948 uh David Ben Gurion um sort of the de facto leader at that point of the issue of the Jewish community in Palestine assembles local dignitaries rabbi eyes fellow politicians in the television television national museum in Tel Aviv on Rothschild Boulevard not the nicest Museum in the whole world but it was chosen because it was thought to be less susceptible to Egyptian bombardment The War of Independence was about to begin there was a much bigger theater down the street and they thought oh the Egyptians would Target that we might as well do it in this smaller venue and this war and the ward already begun I mean yeah so the war had already begun so the British the British were set the end of the British mandate had been set for midnight uh you know the mate between May 14th and May 15th um so the British were departing um and the thought was and more than thought W bank had great intelligence to this effect that the invasion of surrounding Arab armies five Arab armies was to commence immediately upon the British departure but the war had already had already begun the scholars typically divide Israel's war of independence into two stages on the first stage commenced after you know the fall winter of 1947 um once the U.N un decides uh to partition the land of Palestine we can talk about that a little bit thus commence as a so-called Civil War stage of the war of independence you know fight fighting between the Jewish and Arab communities um and then after Israel's declaration May 14th um the major invasion commences and uh the Jews had sort of you know held their own had done pretty well even though there was some heavy sledding um in the first stage of the orb in March and April um they'd scored some important victories or store sort of stabilizing um their presence uh but Ben goria and who you know had who was the most well-informed person he had very dark thoughts about whether whether whether whether it could whether this could be carried on whether the yeshuv the Jewish Community could survive the impending on slot from real armies real in you know the Egyptian Army the jordanians the syrians heavily armed um and the Jewish community at that point um was sorely lacking and both men and ammunition um so Ben Gurion it was a very joyous occasion when he read the Declaration that that room was probably one of the most rapturous rooms in in Jewish history um and uh there was rejoicing you know immediately after this uh you know quick ceremony um there was you know you know Horrors and dancing in the streets in Tel Aviv Ben Gurion left he didn't participate in in this and it very dark thoughts he immediately went to deal with the military impending Invasion he just mustered later we see he had a diary he mustered a few tourist points said at 4 pm we declared independence the nation was jubilant but I mourn amidst the rejoicers so slots really were turned towards military matters and this existential challenge which was you know only gearing up on May 14th and Jerusalem is already partly cut off with Tel Aviv right by the Georgia Legion or yeah Jerusalem had been blockaded um there were you know dignitaries who otherwise may have attended the ceremony in Tel Aviv were unable to do so a few of them um were brought in by you know these these sort of very very rustic to say the least prop planes um but um yeah no the the um you know solidifying a firm connection between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem had already been uh you know a um you know a major aspect of the war um to that point and would continue to be so um the Jews of Jerusalem under strict rationing they would be um for the ensuing months until finally um later that summer you know more more reliable connection was ensured you know have heavy cost of of blood so this declaration is proclaimed it's a official document we'll talk about it in a few minutes in terms of its uh political Theory as it were and a little bit of relationship to the American Declaration and so forth but um but it is it's read aloud but sort of unlike the American Declaration I guess where there's a convention that people know is going on and there's a draft it's somewhat circulated and and then proclaimed uh by representatives of the states and sort of organized matter it's a little bit ad hoc obviously because it's not as you know they don't have it's not a constitution where they have a government that can set up as it were uh send delegates this seems much more uh the more ad hoc more uh suddenly sort of uh we'll have to talk about it I mean do people know about it ahead of time that people just debated it much in public ahead of time is it or is it just sort of sprung on people by Ben-Gurion oh it's the the people the Jewish community of Palestine are left in the dark about the process of the construction of a declaration of independence more than that we can we'll probably get to this as well there's great uncertainty as to the you know whether whether you know the kind of Independence that would be proclaimed that day it was clear that some some version of a state was going to be declared but the specifics of that were not known um I like I I like simply to tell you know to tell this anecdote to you know conveys this point you know many people in the room were you know surprised to learn that the name of the state was Israel and that that that wasn't clear indeed when it was telegram to Washington you know on May 14th when you know the Jewish agency's representative in Washington um you know was it was in touch with the state department you know President Truman they they didn't know yet we know the name of the state so this could have been I mean what were this there were Alternatives uh Judah was considered um there are few few other Alternatives talked through but yeah but the you know Israel came to be this was voted upon actually um in you know several several days before um the um May 14th but only a few days um uh before um so that that wasn't widely known um and yes a process of construction it was sort of frenetic I mean you could say you could trace it the beginning you know the beginning of the beginning was sort of late April 1948 um uh this process was delegated down the bureaucratic chain um to the you know there's a guy called Pincus Rosen known known at the time is Felix Felix rosenbluth he was uh you know first Justice minister of the state to be and he was sort of scrambling around doing a million things um towards the end of the British mandator which laws should we keep from a British mandate which laws should we abolish um how do we end up the white paper restricting Jewish immigration he had a million things on his plate to deal with the you know some kind of proclamation of independence was one of these um many in the first instance delegated it down the chain um to various people um and it sort of remained within like this this you know burgeoning um bureaucracy of the state um until just you know a few days before independence when it became an urgent urgent matter of debate um by uh you know on the part of the leadership of of the issue of the Jewish community and the drafts were not I think well known until somewhat recently that's what makes possible your your book which does Focus we'll get to this on you know what's in some of the drafts and and what the political Theory as it were the competing political theories of the Israeli Declaration of Independence might have been and what what it ended up being but that's not something that people were talking about in 1949 or 1959 or 1969 right I mean that's yeah no it it really um it really wasn't I mean it was always known um that there was this drafting process there were you know various people um who had been been involved with um you know drafting the you know early earlier versions earlier texts of um of the Declaration it wasn't uh it wasn't a it wasn't it wasn't um it was it wasn't a secret or it wasn't you know what was wasn't something totally unowned however it wasn't focused on and this goes back to your your first you know the anecdote with which you began it really hasn't been uh you know the Declaration of repentance or other matters which concerns sort of the nature of the Israeli regime didn't get a lot of air time for through much of Israeli history and there's a good reason for that people were dead focused on the war you know the war the you know the war the war you know the incredible story of the war of independence um you know the subsequent Wars military matters were so absorbing all uh you know absorbed all the greatest Minds in 48 and subsequently um that studies in Israeli history and Israeli politics were were you know that that that's that's where most of the energy um and intelligence um went um and there's also no matter I mean this sort of you could say it's a lincolnian point so we're you know we're entering the 75th year of uh Israel's anniversary again we're now sort of the Fanning generation is sort of you know passed on but that's a you know fairly recently like in you know in the near past if you wanted to you know find out what the founders were thinking you know you know Ben Gurion died and you know 73 but you know Shimon Perez is you know Protege was there you want to ask with the founders or think you go talk to them they're around so that generation has now passed on and I think as a result of this they're sort of growing um you know growing interest in looking at the works they left behind they're sort of or you know like uh you know um to try to orient um for Israelis to orient themselves on key questions on you know the nature of State oh what are we doing here what kind of state we're going to have what's the character of our democracy what's the relationship between um you know religion religion and state what kind of rights are we guaranteed no that's good I suppose that in the American case I mean July 4th is celebrated very early on there are celebrations of it even after the new after the Constitution is is signed in July 4th actually remains Central more than the date of the signing of the Constitution or the ratification of the Constitution which is an interesting thing the centrality of the Declaration I guess Independence remains Central but educate me on this in in Israel it's a holiday very right way and that everyone understands it's a super important moment the Declaration of the state but it's more the founding of the state than the the document isn't as Central as just the fact of the liberate of the of the of the of the of a new Jewish state after 2000 years yeah that's absolutely right yomato uh Israel's independence day is a huge day it's a national holiday it's always been it's May 14th it's when Ben Gurion gives this yeah speech yeah so it's in Israel celebrated on the Hebrew calendar hey baby are but yeah you know May 14th 1948. um but no yeah it's always been you know you know the the fact of Independence uh you know the um the material change from being ruled by others to self-rule has been has been celebrated um and and rightly so uh but the text less so but I think that there's there's growing interest in the text in recent years but the fact that it hasn't um had this mythical mythical hold on the Israeli mind actually tells us something and it it speaks to what I've called I think that and you know the Israel's declaration event is a beautiful document but it's also somewhat an ambiguous document um it's hard to find a community in Israel which would Define its Mission or its per you know the purpose of Israel or the mission of Israel in terms of you know doctrines that come out of the Declaration of Independence it has sentiments which people people refer to you know just freedom justice and peace in line with a vision of the you know of the prophets of Israel has you know there are aspects of it which are you know quite famous and you know everyone does know the text that appears in Civics textbooks and so on but it hasn't quite captured um you know the public imagination the way the American Declaration at least at various times in history has and I guess you know this just one more thing on the American Jefferson has a separate status as author of the Declaration he then becomes president and so forth is very important afterwards too and then Madison and Hamilton more in the Constitution um but in a funny way in Israel because Ben-Gurion is both Central to the Declaration and then the first Prime Minister for what 15 years or something I mean it sort of gets blurred together right I mean it's as if Washington had also done the Declaration and the Constitution you know and so it becomes that a debate about ben-guria and bangoria and bacon and bangorian and successors and it's less I guess you know the focused on the the document and as a sort of having an independent standing no that that's a that I think is a profound point you know so you know as Herodotus tells us Solon famously left Athens after you know drafting its uh constitutional laws for 10 years just to you know ensure that they would follow the laws and not not his will you know that that didn't quite happen um in Israel and yeah all of us is is contented but one other point of that I mean it just so when you're studying it so this this in a way this cuts the other way from a certain purpose if you're studying the American founding you have many choices you look at yeah see U.S declaration so Central and we you know we we can understand why but you know there's a constitution there's a Federalist Paper their great works written by the founders you know people you know stretch to TOEFL and so on that's actually not the case in Israel but you know for you know some some reasons we can get into um Israel's declaration is really the only text from the founding period which attempts to speak about foundational topics of but political thought which attempts to characterize the nature of the state there's supposed to be a constitution um it's written you know one one one one part of Israel's declaration which is dead letter it promises a constitution that that never occurs for you know some complicated reasons and therefore Israel's Israel's Declaration was left as the text which you can look to to try to figure out oh what were what kind of state were the Israelis trying to found in 1948 and we should discuss that in a minute obviously as you say the the political theory of the cons of the document itself which is so interesting and that's full of tensions and so forth but I'd say one last point on that I'm Struck from an American you know point of view point of view or to say outside of Israel histories of uh this I think fits with this I'm sure I was struck decades ago on this there are many histories of Zionism and some of them are written from different points of view of course and their big controversies about javitinsky and Ben Gurion and the revisionists in the UK was endless right and sort of and they're all quite interested in many are quite interesting and but they treat the founding of Israel as an episode in the history of Zionism which is true in a way but not as but we sort of like treating the American founding as well there's a lot of interesting stuff in the colonies in the 18th century and a lot of thinkers and a lot of influences and people heard about this of course they're different political philosophers and this is just kind of like a another chapter in the you know history of uh of what was happening here on this continent which isn't the way some historians take it because they want to minimize the importance of the Declaration but it's never been the Orthodox so to speak account I'd say of America and the founding and the nation beginning in 1776 and based on these Universal principles and all that and I've always been struck I should say a word about this I mean people haven't studied until quite recently and I think this book will have a big influence in this the founding of Israel as a founding I think it's an awfully interesting one it's very problematic very challenging it's full of of problematic aspects and contradictory aspects and so forth and if you're interested in foundings which you should be interested in politics and political science and history this is a pretty remarkable founding and yet it's it's in a weird way shoehorned into this longer history from herzl to you know whatever to Bibi Netanyahu and it's just kind of another thing I'm exaggerating a little bit it's another thing that happens along the way and is there anything you said about this sort of why hadn't people focused more on the founding of the state where are their courses all over in Jewish studies departments or in Middle East studies on the founding of the state of Israel as opposed to the history of Zionism I guess is my question yeah I know I think that's I think that's a very good point um and uh we we would have to get into you know a lot of you know the question of diasa you know the way diaspora looks at developments in the way you know things are understood within within Israel itself um but I I would Echo your sentiment I think that's a that's a mistake and it's something actually that you know Ben-Gurion and the other authors in 1948 had to reckon with as they were you know looking you know you know deciding what to say what to say about the nature of the state you know herzl and you know the history of Zionism you know had to be acknowledged herzl's name obviously is you know mentioned in in the declaration independence although it was left off and you know certain um you know certain certain early early versions of the text so he he had to be in there but that was an acknowledgment of his you know his his role his political actions rather than you know his you know the vision that he that he um that he gave for the nature of the Jewish state to be created herzl's genius was his you know his his uh his political organizing his his understanding of the world historical forces what needed to be done I mean you know Statesman at the highest level but when you look for what you look and you when you when you study Assad when you look into you know his his vision as to what you know you know political Theory matters like oh what what's what's the foundation of the state what's what's it going to look like there's some interest there um but that really wasn't his primary concern you know in the early you know late 19th and early 20th century he wasn't thinking as you know Madison is a Hamilton he wasn't going into the you know the architecture of government he wasn't going into its founding principles so it actually doesn't you could in turn in 1948 to herzl and say oh we're going to uh you know herzl's going to tell us how we're going to you know what principles we're going to you know are going to be the basis um of our state and that left in in 1948 that left um you know Ben gurin and the other Founders to do their best to try to you know to you know think think politically think foundationally and articulate you know the the the the the the the the kind of state that they wanted um to found yeah well that's very good that's good and that's a good transition to actually let's talk about the Declaration because I guess another way of saying what you're interesting is there's no John Locke I mean there's no one thinker of course there were other strands of thought in America ranging from Puritan and religious to radical versions more thinkers more radical than lock and this has been studied great by many many good historians and sexual historians and political theorists but there is at the end of the day that a real political philosophy from which the Declaration flows so let's talk about that what what what were the competing political philosophies or competing maybe just thoughts if they weren't quite philosophies that were there and and and and what how was this shown in the drafts and then I want to get of course to ben-gurians absolutely Central role which I think we've sort of touched on here already but I was struck by reading your book I mean just it's you just can't be uh overestimated but anyway first I mean so we'll talk about the Declaration what does it say I mean with you know most people let's just assume most people haven't read it so they can get your they can go online and read it and there's a translation on the I believe on the Israeli government website it's free in English for those of us who who isn't great so but still what what does it say what what did the draft say what were the competing you know elements of it and so forth yeah so studying this is why it's important as as you say to study the the final text of the decoration and its pre-drafts the way I the way I characterize a study is you studying the Declaration tells you the path Israel ultimately embarked on but it also tells you some past not taken and that you see that over the evolution of the major there are there are many drafts you know this thing you know stood in bureaucratic committee they were edits some of those were substantial some were less substantial but you could really pause it at least four Central pre-drafts and you know it sort of you know um crudely you could you could characterize the first one as basically you know following the American Declaration of President so Liberia you know the natural rights doctrine of the American Declaration combined in a certain interesting way um with a Jewish Jewish justification for Statehood that was option one option two and who does that let's talk about those drafts a little bit they're actually interesting even though it's a little bit in the weeds but it's pretty amazing so these are you say bureaucratic but you make it sound like there was an actual functioning bureaucracy but it's a much more uh ad hoc than that isn't it really I mean yeah it is I mean there there is a story you tell about this guys so yeah so oh yeah so you know it on Passover of 1948 and yeah so okay yeah so let's go into that I mean that's that's just an astonishing story so as I said this guy pink customers and Felix rosenbluth um you know the Justice minister to be um he's got this um young he's you know a a young um young lawyer um slash government worker who's not even in government full-time he's a son of a prominent Tel Aviv lawyer named Mordechai baham I'm 33 years old in 1948. um as I say rosenbluth is very busy assembling other tests he calls um um baham into his office um in um later April um 1948 and says you know we've got to prepare a proclamation once once the British leave we've gotta prepare um you know statement which uh you know says which legitimate is the authority like is like the that's the most important aspect of the authorities which are declaring independence are legitimate bodies henceforth to be considered states that has to be in there uh but it also Rose and blue says um has to say something of how we got to this point um so it's unclear if he gave him more specific instructions like oh it should you know should it be a substantive text should it be simply a procedural document but this guy was sort of um you know had you know sort of at a loss for what what to do and The Story Goes that he was having you know Passover Passover lunch with his family um you know Saturday April uh 23 1948 and he was reminded that there was a you know an interesting rabbi um a rabbi named Harry davidowitz um who uh had immigrated from America to Palestine in 19 in the mid 1930s he lived nearby in Tel Aviv um you have this major task in front of you why don't you go consult with him consult with his Rabbi see what you come up with um so that Saturday afternoon he went to pay a house and translated Shakespeare am I making this up yeah yeah so this was it's a you know just it just gets better and better this Rabbi had been yeah the the translate he had translated um he was of independent means he wasn't I don't think professionally employed as a um as as a rabbi in Tel Aviv but he was sort of a literary translator he translated um the uh The Works of Shakespeare which were standard Works in Israel for many decades um he translated um you know from from the judeo-arabic a text that had been attributed to maimonides so someone who's very who's interested in um the great work you know great great great about Orthodox it wasn't exactly Yeshiva the full full religious education he sort of adrifted in a progressive Direction um later on uh but extremely and extremely learned um fellow his wife was a first uh was uh you know the uh you know an art critic for uh the Jerusalem for the Palestine post soon to be Jerusalem Post um and so he had and he had in in Tel Aviv 19 didn't have a university like it had like a Central Library it was like a bad Library he was you know had an extensive Library um and so somehow and some of the details here are very murky there's you know a lot of a lot of the you know the you know the relationship between baham and Davido it's much of it relies on family law everyone has to say but what's clear what happened so you know you know baby from from what we can tell you spend some time in um the uh the rabbis library that afternoon in consultation with the rabbi and he copied out core text of the anglo-american political tradition um the English English Bill of Rights 1689 the American Declaration of Independence and aspects of the King James Bible and then he goes home either with input from from the rabbi you know strongly suspect the rabbi was was involved and he writes a declaration of independence which you know tries to you know blend you know life liberty and pursuit of happiness he mentions that phrase you know government you know you know governments draw their draw their power from the consent of the Govern um he basically crafts a you know declaration for an independent Jewish State on that basis while also beginning with you could say a theological you know quotes Deuteronomy right at the beginning you know the you know because the Lord where is the Lord God promises land to Abraham Isaac and Jacob and and their seeds after them so he tries in this remarkable way to could say a combine Philadelphia and Jerusalem and in Tel Aviv in the spring of 1948. um yoram the guy who Israeli scholar who who who first really saw and analyzed um baham's text um no noted noted this um and this was really an interesting attempt but it was it didn't survive the editorial process of the issue of bureaucrats a sort of very anglo-american approach to the question so that draft is getting worked on and then there are other drafts and and that's right yeah that's right so so this follows so so it takes a turn in a labor Zionist Direction afterwards and the whole natural right um teaching of the American Declaration which which baham had uh you know tried to assert is is basically edited out very quickly probably with it with the help of Bahama also over time he was involved in the editing process he was you know very very committed to his first draft but it didn't you know didn't didn't quite survive the confrontation with you know colleagues back in the office so it goes in that direction um and then there are various other there are various other attempts also there's a fellow called her Hersh louder pact was one of the you know the principal founders of international law in the 20th century he writes a draft um which is that's sort of you could say did there the the the final Dre has several lineages right there's a baham lineage which is then added in a labor Zionist direction there's a Herschel ladder pack draft which tries to deal with a you know questions of international law and legitimacy finally it goes to moshasharat another principal player um in the in this drama Israel Israel's second second prime minister who produces the penultimate draft um in uh in in the few days before independence and he's very concerned with how what's what's How are um how are the American authorities how is the U.N going to respond to this we need to do everything in our draft um to win legitimacy from um from the United States principally as well as as well as other powers and then finally coming to um David Ben-Gurion um in the night of the night between May 13th and May May 5th what's crazy because this is all happening under the gun of the May 14th 15th deadline I suppose the American said deadline were under the gun sort of but they didn't if it hadn't been July 4th it would have been August 4th right it wasn't like here they really have to have it where they think they should have it at least obviously when they Proclaim Independence and they have to do that that because of the UN deadline say a word just to explain the history that on the U.N stuff just so the UN has I mean just one forgets I mean if you're pro-israel you've you've grown to dislike the U.N quite a lot over the decades subsequently but one forgets how important that was the uh and just say a word about the history of that from in 4748 to un yes yeah so the UN the question of the U.N in a way was you know goes to the heart of the the Practical political issues as they were understood and contemplated in 1948. so the UN um after you know the British British British announcer withdrawal um Palestine under this mandate which itself Nations yeah I mean they conquer they you know they win this before right yeah they win it win it from the ottoman to 1917 and then that's that's formalized in the League of Nations um after the war um the British show up their hands like a you know broke shivering British Empire in the wake of World War II you know they're they're um sick and tired of policing um uh the the conflict there they announced they're leaving they turn it over the U.N U.N investigates and then November 29 1947 Nan over 75th Anniversary we recently celebrated um they decide on a partition of the land of Palestine into a Jewish State an Arab State and an international Jerusalem now this is that this is very important because it's often when when the and this was in U.N resolution 181 when people talk about U.N resolution 181 today then say I would proclaimed a Jewish state right or a Jewish State and a you know Arab State at most but the kind so if you look into the text of the Revolution what the U.N had insisted upon in which the world powers were also very um attached to it wasn't simply you know chick shock you know um British leave and you know we have you know these these states can run themselves however however they please no the U.N attached like very severe um strictures on these you know States or you know quasi-states to be the U.N was going to be there and supervise are going to be blue Helm this none of this ever materialized but in the resolution oh there was going to be un supervision um sort of a U.N police or U.N regime Force really monitoring those States um there had to be for for the states actually to be admitted to the U.N later on there had to be an economic Union between the Arabs and Jews peace out to Prevail all these you know they had to you know all these sorts of parliamentary offices had to be you know created the UN was ultra-specific on what uh what what kind of you know benchmarks these uh states to be um would have to meet if they were to be considered um States um and so that that immediately is that that in a way so that I mean it's the you know the details of human resolution 181 really set the political you know set the terms of the political debate for the for the Jews of Palestine going forward because era the Arab states right away there's you know something you know um you know the Arab Arab higher committees like so you know convey to know in certain terms we're not we're not accepting any any partition um we have we have no use for this um the war broke out peace peace was like you know a dream right away you know the you know right after the the passing of the um um you you resolution um you know Jews are attacked in Jerusalem the the war begins so peace does not Prevail um and um there's there's backtracking um the powers of the world America you know America becomes an interesting question America supported the partition plan but there are actors in the state department and elsewhere who wanted to you know you know Backtrack on this and that was a diplomatic background the Jews had to face and their their principal political concern and Ben Gurion says this later is oh do we how how far do we commit ourselves to a U.N process which is already a dead letter but they need to be so to speak on the side of the U.N or or or or or more or less implementing the U.S in order to keep U.S and others on board the need to be sort of on the side of we are doing what the U.N authorized not on the side of who cares about the U.N this is oh yeah 2 000 years of History here and and you know we don't care about the U.N and we're just declaring independence yeah that latter point was a revision that was a revisionist line through throughout this and there's a certain intelligence in it right the revisionist saw revisionist meeting the revision yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah the right right-wing critics of the bengurion line they said look there's no this un process as a farce it's absurd we just need to declare independence if we don't do this um we're the you know so the foreign powers are going to impose something on us but that wasn't a diplomatic line that Ben Gurion took Ben-Gurion you know in in Fierce and agonizing debate so his colleagues you know Advanced precisely that yes we need to we accept the general principle uh that the U.N um genius right we accept the principle of partition and Jewish statehood which uh resolution 181 loudly affirms um but we don't commit ourselves um in any specific and legally enforceable way to the details of resolution 181 including the borders that were specified in it including all the economic Union whole host of other things because those have been totally Blown Away by the political developments in the meantime you know we're invaded you know the genocidal War has been launched launched against us um the details of resolution 101 are an operative um so Ben Gurion that's his principle um principle point on the Diplomatic level in his declaration dependence he says you know and this is pure pure you know pure ben-gurian innovation in the final text we recognize the strength of resolution 181 um and um we you know we we accept to work towards economic Union um we are um we're we're not we're not we're not departing from that but I'm not committing myself to you know every the letter of human resolution 1a1 that's that's uh inoperative at this but he doesn't so let's get in out of the text on this issue of I guess what we call it the grounds of sovereignty almost it he cites you at the the text cites the resolutions as I recall you you show but doesn't make that the basis as it were of the legitimacy of the Jewish state or of Jewish sovereignty absolutely that's a that's you could say that's his key innovation in a decoration and in the founding of Israel he he sort of downgrades it he recognizes its importance as a diplomatic event on the you know sort of a way station on the road to um to uh Israeli Independence but he asserts Independence on the basis of what he calls a natural right the natural right of the Jewish people like all other nations to claim sovereignty That's the basis on which Ben gurin and Ben Gurion Alone um asserts Israeli Independence and that was a fierce fight with his colleagues his colleagues many of them you know very distinguished very distinguished lawyers um sort of some of them had you know quite a legalistic mindset um others were you know very you know like they were you know they're so attuned to what was you know diplomatic considerations in Washington what was happening there they were much more willing to say you know commit themselves in speech to the UN process oh we're only we're only following um the UN process where this this the the kind of Independence where claring is a U.N managed independent so Ben Gurion breaks free from this um and he um I think teaches his colleagues a lesson on the meaning of sovereignty he says there's a moment ago to truly go for it um the British are leaving you don't you don't get an opportunity like that you know every day when there's a void of political rule so we just need to go for it and he had some support you know gold on me or future Prime Minister others um you know other uh others of his you know colleagues in the labor party I mean he had support he wasn't totally alone in following this diplomatic line but he really made this you know win out um sovereignty on the basis of the Jews have a right to a state and he uses the phrase and just gets out of the substance of the Declaration and you should walk us through some of the key sentences phrases you know Etc historic and natural right is that right that that that's the ground of the state somehow yeah the ground of this so okay yeah so what so so how do we do this let's let's talk about that I'd say the Declaration um you know tries to do three things and three three Central areas so the first I've already sort of covered this is a question of sovereignty sovereignty and National the basis of national Independence and this is clearly clearly stated this is you know 10 out of 10 bengalurian does on this front on the meaning of national sovereignty this state um is a fully sovereign state um it recognizes the you know it's you know it has gratitude for you know it gratefully acknowledges or you know the role of un um in um in in recognizing this principle but it's a state like any other it exists in the world of States um it will succeed or fall on the basis of its own you know on the basis of its own arms on the basis of its own um success it doesn't it doesn't um you know try to fit itself into like a you know a vision for what the UN was trying to do it's not it's an it's an independent state and that and that is contained in that in that um idea of um you know the natural right of the state to be to be to be like all others so that's on sovereignty and I think the state and that you know it's no surprise that you know Israel has always been very strong on on this run we're a sovereign state we're or you know we understand that we understand our ourselves as independent as acting um independently and that doesn't preclude diplomatic relations peace treaties whatever but you know we're we're existing in a world of states which was not a like you know it sounds to to an American you know that's you know it's it sounds like you know almost like a bromide um but in the in you know in you know amidst of people who hadn't you know been a who had some for religious reasons philosophic reason had rejected State sovereignty or just think of the simple fact hadn't lived in you know independent uh Kingdom or state for you know two Millennia that's a you know major thing which he was able to do at the time so that's on sovereignty the second is on the question of um religion and religion and state I'm going to say the basis so Ben Gurion this is again a ben-gurian Innovation um and he he starts um he introduces this you know beautiful first paragraph um do the decoration maybe we can just read it yeah read it that would be good for a paragraph of our the American Declaration so famous and when in the course of human events which seems to not have much room for religious intervention divine intervention I guess the Israeli declaration is going to be a little different right yeah read it in English and of course the English is is is quite different um Eric seesirel was a birthplace of the Jewish people here there's spiritual religious and political identity was shaped here they first attained to statehood created cultural values of national and Universal significance and gave to the world the Eternal book of books so in previous drafts this started with like a pretty like just general and Bland statement because of a historic and traditional attachment to the language Jews have already had it brackets right away any of the you know essential question of the substance of what that historical and traditional connection may be Ben-Gurion realizes he gets versions of the text which which go in that direction and he realizes it's not enough I've got to try to stay State something on like the the actual meaning of um our our Enterprise here about why the Jews are you know connected to this specific land and he tries in this paragraph right they created cultural values of universal significance and it gave to the world the book of books so you you dig into that and you like you start to see and this is where you know the dialogue between the particular and the universal uh come come to be Ben Gurion is grasping here for a not merely like a simple National justification for Statehood like that that can be read when you're talking about sovereignty oh other other states are you know other peoples are entitled Italy for the Italians exactly Italy for the Italians this is yeah this isn't simply another another nationalism what he tries to do here is to State the work of the Jews that they've done in the land of Israel has Universal significance they gave to the world the book of books and therefore if that you know if that um you know work and the you know the the ideas or principles or Treasures actually would be a better uh translation than the Bad official English translation the Israelis produced later on you know values no they gave to the World Treasures I.E Treasures of universal significance if that you know if if those Treasures are are to continue their way through world history the Jews deserve sovereignty to carry on that mission that is sort of the universal Jewish justification that he reaches for in this first paragraph and which comes out in you know in different places of the text so that is you know that is um that's um I you know I think a beautiful sentiment I think there's there's a lot there but it's also in a way sort of ambiguous right because it doesn't say the text doesn't say anything as to what these cultural values are it doesn't say it says that it's you know it speaks of the Bible it speaks to the importance of the Bible but it doesn't and I don't really blame Ben Gordon for this would take you know genius the level of maimonides to like you know some some grade in Jewish history to truly distill like you know the principles of the Bible in a few sentences but you know it doesn't it doesn't say anything like what are those what are those Treasures that that that that come from maybe better not to try to say right I mean oh yeah no look of course I mean this is yeah that's the you know getting to the political there's a reason why Ben green you know the previous drafters you know left it at the level of a traditional kind of connection because they're very wary of wading into this theological terrain there's so much disagreement many anti-religious people there were you know are you know quite you know healthy religious you know people you know how healthy religious contingent in 1948 as well and so if you just leave it at like a fairly abstract level then you have a kind of civil peace like there's like there's a reason for the compromise on that no one's gonna get really mad um if you just leave it at yeah book of books and you and you don't you don't go into um so I remind you but there's so that is striking there's no quotation from the Bible that you know God gave us this land there are many places you could have cited one could have cited that bigger and was quite familiar with that would give the very particular biblical uh justification for the Jews having this land uh but that he chose not to right I mean he thinks that's that's too too much of a literalistic uh grounding as it were yeah no so exactly so that that's a that's a that's striking absence interestingly in this first draft the draft I mentioned Mordecai baham he did do this um he put in the you know you know the you know that that direct quote from Deuteronomy um one version of the Covenant God's promise um and that would have struck um Ben Gurion to say nothing of his you know more secular even atheist minded that's like um you know like a a a a a a a a you know not one bridge too far that's like you know you know um way over the line way too way too Theocratic way to you know simply religious on unacceptable and also diplomatic purposes either in terms of yeah not yeah and so forth yeah yeah and and look and he and it's like you know and and also just exactly Christian nations out there every every nation in a way could claim some Pro you know some some promise some version of oh we were we we have a promise to do this obviously not as you know worked out and as you know elaborate as the um as a Jewish Mission but you know a mission um but um the idea of being an elect people is not actually um unique um so that that I I you know I you know I I would have you know I you know if if I were in charge of it I would have um you know potentially gone to something you know some some text of the Bible but it would have been something you know explicating it's uni the universal mission of the Jewish people uh the Jewish Jewish Jewish people should continue you know looking elsewhere in Deuteronomy because of the wisdom of its laws the nations of the world will see that this is a wise and Discerning people as Deuteronomy else elsewhere States um so there are other places to go so but but anyway on the substance of the matters but this was too Theocratic no no direct quotation um from the Bible but Ben Gurion does attempt to distill um to tell us something about the the universal Jewish Mission and why that um should um continue so that's on a question of religion and what else I just not also on religion God is not directly mentioned or the the word of God the word the the name of God is not in the Declaration is that right so it so this so there's a question I think it is so the the name so sorry Israel at the conclusion of a declaration um the signers you know fix their trust and Suey Israel the rock of Israel um which actually had been at that phrase Surya Israel had been in the Declaration from its very early or earliest draft that had been a direct Trend in the first instance put that phrase in following the American Declaration following this was an interesting translation um he chose for Jefferson's you know firm Reliance and and Divine Providence so that text had been in there um yeah yeah exactly even you know though many in the room in the room were weren't traditional Believers that day everyone would recognized um the phrase stories or al-raq of Israel from um from uh from daily prayer service that they had tended in their in in uh in their youth um in the prayer book it speaks of Suri Israel the rock of Israel and its Redeemer which uh you know that that that version of it is you know speaks more directly to an active Act of God intervening yeah I think in Samuel where I think that phrase is maybe most used in David's song I guess it's called at the end of his life I think it is serious so with some slight implication for this the rock of Israel which keeps us safe that's very much Dave what David's concern is and then there's the Redemption which is sort of a different thing you might say than this is the more Zionist side of it I would say the the yeah right yeah that's yeah that's right and Ben Gurion um on the evening May 13th created a debate between a rabbi who's on you know part of the executive committee you know Rabbi um Yehuda Leb Fishman maimon um and Arun ziesling uh you know far left my palm member and they argued precisely this point Fishman said oh we need to go low we need the rock of Israel's Redeemer in there and um ziesling said uh I I'm I'm unhappy with this in general maybe we can have some you know rock of Israel it's fine if it's mentioned but don't don't force upon don't don't say I don't force upon me to sign on I believe um in this and what Ben Gurion Ben Gordon was proudest you know he he did some self mythologizing on this line later on set out serious rail is a perfect compromise because a materialist um could could uh think of think of rock of Israel in terms of Zionist strength um you know um and um the um you know believer could view it in terms of you know redeeming God who who is active um in in in in Redemption um there's still a third way you know our my colleague James Diamond has pointed us as possible to have synthesis between between those two sides Rock of Israel think of it almost an aristotelia in terms of first principle of of the world um and that's you know sort of my minuteian use of the term Rock sort of points Us in in that direction so many ways different ways to conceive it I was struck reading your account uh it could correct me if I'm wrong they really it you know uh just coming to it fresh as they were for me I might have expected to see something about how about the promise of redemption and so forth and that is pretty much conspicuously not in the claimed in the Declaration it's not it's not disclaimed as it were it just left for people to make up their own mind about whether this is to be you know a a theologically unbelievably important moment for theologically for Jews or whether it's uh very it's certainly very important moment for the Jewish people that's made clear but I think that the rest is simply left up to people to make up their own mind I suppose right yeah there is there is no messianism in the document not none that I can none that I can see yeah okay so anything else on God and or religion and in the in the in the Declaration no I I think I think what I what I go to next is this discussion of Rights this is this is this is very important so um this this is a money where where you could say it's most um ambiguous Ben-Gurion um um doesn't he also in the in the in the small hours of May 13th um he is thinking about the nature of Rights um what I what I want to what I want to say what I want to say about and he introduces like one important change from a previous draft previous drafts had mentioned um that um the state to be and this is you know in um you know the with the Supreme Court later called the vision and Credo part of the decoration where it simply lifts all kinds of things the state will you know ensure complete social political equality freedom of religion you know freedom of language all the all these kinds of things many good good things no doubt and just take a minute on that because people don't know that and the Declaration itself guarantees or at least the firms that it's that the forthcoming State should have for example religious freedom for non-jews and equality of law for All City all citizens all who they reside there correct I mean that's oh that's not a later Israeli Supreme Court liberal you know interposition so to speak into a much more Jewish and Zionist and a particularist document no absolutely right um let me just read that paragraph again the English translation the state of Israel will be open for Jewish immigration and for the in-gathering of the Exiles it will Foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants it'll be based on freedom justice and peace as envisioned by the prophets of Israel it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion race or sex will guarantee freedom of religion conscience language education and culture will self Safeguard the holy places while religions and be faithful to the principles of the charter of the United Nations so this is an exhaustive catalog of Rights and I think that you know they have animated you know Israeli you know is Israel's life in a very in an enabling way um one what what Ben Gurion you know even in in the paragraph yeah so previous version that I read previous um version had said the state will bestow rights on its inhabitants I.E it had like an extreme kind of statist on almost you know socialist or whatever you want to call it notion that um rights are you know sort of you know donations of a of a specific um body Ben-Gurion and you know the final debate um before um you know before I'm taking over the drafting process itself says no we've got to change that the state does not bestow rights rights are inherent to the people so he Alters a language just so the stable guarantee um or make manifest Tech I am in the Hebrew the rights the pre-existing right so he pushes um pushes the document in that way in a in a Direction that's closer to you know doctrine of inherent natural rights which we you know we find you know so so wonderfully and certain you know truly but you know I think in uh America's declaration depends so he does that but on the other hand I mean this this list again is great I'm like you know I'm happy that the you know state is you know commits itself uh to you know many many or most of the things we we just read but it doesn't really stay where they come from it's just like it just it just puts them down in the document say we're going to do this and this and this there's no justice there's no um political Theory you could say as we have in America's declaration which which um you know speaks of the origins where where these rights come from um you know the you know in you know uh you know how they've been given according to the laws of nature and and of Nature's God so that's that's not in there um and that's that's actually real absence that that that creates a sort of confusion as to what what what are rights where where do they come from it doesn't um it doesn't allow the reader of this text to gain uh you know so there's a theoretic theoretically coherent you know a fully theoretically coherent account of you know the nature of Rights and the relationship of the state to the citizens and you know the rights again I think ben-gorian's change makes it you know pushes it to say they're inherent rights but there is sort of a the one one could in a way come out of this saying like oh this is you know quite a you know the state is um you know the you know the the state has um you know in uh a monopoly on rights but you know so that is um that's I would say somewhat ambiguous and and by the way so this list of to go back to the UN question is list this catalog of rights which I just mentioned is basically the language is basically ripped from U.N resolution 181 U.N resolution 21 and it's specifications for the states the universal inside of it and then the universe the Jewish side yeah exactly exactly yeah yeah the the un uh to say the least did not um did not mention anything about in gathering of Exiles um so but but the catalog of Rights it did do so many of the choices which were made in this area and in others were rightly again I'm not I'm not um I'm not castigating them for this we're to satisfy you know the the strictures which the UN um had put forward well say a word about the phrase historic and natural right I'm so interested that's I find that interesting and I would just say incidentally slightly contrary to I mean we think the American Declaration like really lays out the grounds of this I mean does it really it's like two sentences that are asserted the laws of nature and Nature's got incidentally are in the context of the separate equal station our nation is entitled to really it's a nature Nature's God just decided that that there are a bunch of Nations that have to have a separate and equal status so I would say we we read locked back into it which is appropriate they don't have lock in a certain way or they don't and Ambiguously have lock I think it's also a Jewish State and because it's a different century and so forth and so I I don't know I think you know what could overdo how much uh the even the U.S declaration is you know 100 percent uh grounds into 100 obviously in this ambiguity about the Creator and so forth so anyway just oh yeah sure I'm not yeah I don't have a by no means do I want to understand you know no no I'm yeah no I'm defending it also I mean it just you know as an as an interesting side now the first translation of locks two treatises of government was done in 1948 in Hebrew that's sort of uh and and it wasn't really interesting I mean they were so when forgets that they were so influenced by German thought and Marxist thought and 20th Century thought that it's for us it's a lock yes you know but that wasn't thinking a lot about luck yeah yeah very much yeah it was it was very much not of their world their world was a world of of Central Europe um and it its intellectual Traditions the the marks of socialism which had taken you know the ideological Vanguard to this you know swampy swampy swampy land in the poorest region of the world um in the late 19th and 20th Century so it wasn't of their world but I think part of you know ben-gurion's Brilliance is he again I'm not I'm not advocating for Israel to be you know to copied America directly um but he does I think through some of these changes and overall he pushes it in a Direction that's you know you know more you could say small Al more in accord with um well yeah more more liberal Democratic um you know vision and say a word about the phrase just the voice it's historic and natural right I think not natural natural natural and historical historically historical right yeah [Music] nature and history so look so yeah I think it was the context of that in the Declaration that's so I I so I think we've gone there by unpacking at the scoot the natural right part of it is this is this question of sovereignty this is that that's what's the literal context I mean what in what sentence does it appears in a sentence that it is an important moment right it's not just random I mean it's sort of well it's it's taken to be important by me but that wasn't the Applause line and um in in the room that day the Applause line was you know then you know the naming of the state you know for the end uh you know the you know this the termination of of the Mandate um accordingly we members well you know accordingly members of The People's Council represented the Jewish Community trial and of the Zionist movement are here assembled on the day of the termination of British mandate over Eric Israel and by virtue of our natural natural and historic right and on the strength of the resolution of the United Nations General Assembly hereby declare the establishment of a Jewish state in Israel to be known as the state of Israel forgive me yes it is in uh you know Applause line paragraph but so I think my interpreter very fleetingly I mean in a way right a lot of our packing there yeah but it but it follows I think from you know again their interpretations May differ on this so I see the you know we we argue um in the book I see the natural right side of it as expressing this Sovereign sovereignty the natural right of the people to be Sovereign to be free of you know the strictures of foreign powers we've earned this um this is our natural right and historic right is not history in in some hegelian sense it could be read that way right and the natural tendency is just to say oh by virtue of tradition but I think in in ben-gurion's uh uh account it is this um you know that flows back to this uh attempt to universalize a Jewish experience on the basis of the book of books the Jews have done important work in Antiquity um that um that mission has been you know the Jews have suffered grievously um and suffered grievously precisely by their you know commitment um to to that to that mission and and to that project um and then and they're and they're deserving of um Independence to carry to carry that torch forward we are torch bearers for the treasures um for the principles as contained in the book of books that's the historic right I think once you once you get down to it so it's not really so it's not it's not um it's it's phrased as a store as a historic right which I think is a you know it doesn't it doesn't get to the core of the matter but it reaches toward um a core which is I think you know quite defensible if um containing its own ambiguities to be sure as well yeah and it is I think it consciously not Divine rightly just put it that way the historic right implies of course what is the book of books about you know but it it's a one step removed you might say and therefore a little less uh well maybe get more consensus on on that phrase yeah oh no yeah no the the the drive to have consensus I mean the the kind of fractious you know new I don't think it's a news flash to anyone you know Jewish people have been fracked the Jews have been fractious politically you know in um in in Palestine you know many different parties um so many different sensibilities on religious political matters and so on so just fine it finding um acceptable words that could be signed signed upon um was no no no small feat um and um the there is there was a ton of practical Merit in this in the in this in this compromise which was established because no known as known as perfectly happy religious people who want to see like a full full-throated oh we're here because God promised us to land and we're we're we're going to live according to um uh live according to the law um they're not perfectly satisfied um but on the other hand they're not totally unsatisfied because it like it it permits that kind of life and on the other hand um you know then not not non-religious or not not perfectly satisfied because it does do this like you know the decoration Independence begins with you know the you know the book of books it begins with um you know culture cultural you know cultural Treasures of um you know of um of uh of of of the Jewish World um and yet they're you know and and there and there's going to be religion in the state and this is going to annoy them and so on but um um it's it's it's it's it's practically something something they can live with so there is there was Merit in the compromise on you know Israel's ability to hang together through thick and thin most mostly thick um does does put does put a point in um in in in in the favor of these sort of compromise uh phrases which exist in the Declaration yeah there's a lot of error in that and it is signed is it not by delegates ranging from I think a Communist Party member to to rabbis to Orthodox rabbis yeah the whole range so 30 30 37 members of the full um the new newly established um you know Proto parliament of the state everyone signs a one revisionist politely asked oh can I like sign it with like with uh can I can I can I only sign partially because I don't believe in uh any language about the U.N he relents he just he just signs that he's a wonderful guy you know the Communist signed it this you know far left atheist our own ziesling who you know caused ben-gurians so many so many troubles here and and and elsewhere he signs it too so it is able you know the whole you know it it it is it is signed upon by the you know the whole political um establishment you could say of the Jewish community and and you know and end of Israel I mean there's a whole other conversation we should have about sort of how the Declaration plays out either quad declaration or just the themes of it you might say in uh tension and in in Israeli history and the Supreme Court and the liberal side of Israel and the village aside if you want to put it that way or the it's a Jewish and Democratic state but it's probably too much for the few minutes we have left so maybe better to focus uh now on Ben Gurion I just he's come up so much but let's step back a little from the uh you know the details of his role and and getting the Declaration done and and proclaiming it or even 47 48 and talk about him just as I suppose he's the closest to the George Washington of Israel so I mean what about him as a Statesman and uh people don't know people there are biographies one could read maybe you could recommend one or two but I'm just curious what just just what he seems like he I mean he was hugely famous and of course revered by Jews at least when I was growing up you know some American Jews and so forth but I feel like actually studying him as a Statesman that hasn't been done quite as much maybe I'm wrong about that yeah there have been some beginnings of it but this is I mean it's really in a way this whole story is a is a story of Ben Gurion and my and in a way working on you know the Fanning of Israel is my is sort of my education and growing admiration for bengurion I I you know I started I came into this like you know obviously like you know recognizing his you know his his talents his judgment you know in in founding the state and leading it and so on you know regelled with you know stories about you know many many of his uh accomplishments but I had sort of on the level you know on this question of statesmanship which you know you know or uh which um we've been uh you know our friends have been studying for so long I had sort of them you know lesser view I was sort of you know he had like in later life there's this image you know he's very he was into you know a yoga like practice called feldenkraiser photos of him standing on his head you know he's like quirky stories of his sort of of his you know of his um you know supposed learning in Greek in the Bible and he was meeting with Scholars I I thought there was like a you know you know simply you know facile vanity just like oh I'm concerned with Barry you know um you know burnishing my legacy and you know I'm gonna pretend to be you know engaged in the world of ideas it's not actually true I mean you look at it and it just like you're astonished by what he was able to to do and to learn um Walter liquor the you know late wonderful historian of Zionism in the Holocaust many other matters he I think put it well you know he talks referring to ben-gorian and other you know labor Zionist leaders as well they you know you know beginning in the tens 1910s 1920s they were like these really these Trade union guys their concerns were very parochial uh their knowledge of the world was very limited um ben-gorian was you know a guy from you know a small village in Poland yeah a word about just what does he where does he grow up what does he come to Israel yeah so he um so he was born in 1886 in a in a place called plonsk um in Poland part of part of part of the Russian Empire sort of North uh West I think about 70 miles uh from from from Warsaw um he's from uh Zionist family this was this was kind of important his father was active and the lovers of Zion movement um he you know and when hertzel died in 1904 he reports weeping you know feeling he lost his uh North Star um and he of course is not David Ben-Gurion at that point right oh yeah David David groon David Green something like that and Ben Gurion was a rebel against Roman rule over Palestine very very upper he changes his name um and he sort of he comes to a Palestine which is still under ottoman Rule and there's basically nothing there um this is in 1906 1907 something like that 1906 1907 um is when um is when he comes he works briefly as a day laborer there's literally like in you know like a small settlement in the north um and he sort of finds himself in you know as a later later polishing who's a community organizing right I mean he gets very involved in in um you know organizing a union and political party um and he um he sort of through these experiences he had through you know the Union Union business and political business creating a political party out of this he sort of grows and grows as a Statesman um some of our revisionist friends criticize him at some points like oh he was he was behind he he certainly made some errors you know he didn't he didn't see Britain um you know when World War One began he was still like oh the ottomans are going to do well maybe you know he's a bit late sometimes he could have potentially been a bit late about the United States the growing role of the United States in the world but by 1948 he was a man who had really really developed a you know comprehensive view of the you know we could say balance of forces that um that the Jews of Palestine faced and partially is based on this experience but also also partially by reading books I mean he really you know he spent you know formative years in the United States um he knew America's Declaration of Independence for instance um he sort of fell in love with Plato and Aristotle in addition to the Bible during World War II he's in London he didn't have much to do he's just like during the blitz he was like reading Plato's laws all day you know this kind of thing so he actually there was there was um this growth of this growth that he had um and this like ability to um you know see see political things as they are was astonishing and it's really a point in favor of democratic it's two things a pointy favor Democratic citizenship like oh actually you you think this this this guy will go narrow nowhere no actually if he's given his freedom you can actually go go go go go pretty far and also just so you know I mean so no formal education to speak he would be I mean he like he like couldn't get like and it's uh compared to his colleagues some of you had fancy degrees you know many the German lawyers you know working at the upper echelons of the Jewish settling out studied you know fancy degrees from Heidelberg and you know Berlin and other places he like was in a Polish Technical College he was in a law school in Istanbul that he flunked out of so he was um you know this this uh you know and and I did Auto died act if there ever ever was one but I think also in addition to you know what I said about Democratic states just so like the inheritance of the world of Judaism which he you know um which he's still again not raised in a religious household but you know some you know aspects of of that world had certainly left his Mark um on his character and his you know readings of the Bible and you know other things really helped him to help him to grow into the Statesman he became by by 1948. that's really fascinating any apart from your book which will remind people Israel's Declaration of Independence you and devastated people should order that immediately and pre-order it I guess hopefully out early in the new year though um any particular things that you found helpful in terms of either accounts of the founding or historical accounts of the 4748 the war and so forth or and or biographies or studies of ben-gorian or just I think people would appreciate that yeah Tom Sega has a recent biography of Ben gorion is not extremely friend like the author it's wonderful book author is not totally friendly to Ben Gordon but in spite of that I think you see like as you know sort of Statesman education of um uh as a Statesman so that comes out and that's it that's translated today yeah yeah every everything I'll mention is in English so that's one another work I'd mention is Zev Stern Hill um also recently died a you know scholar of you know both both French and you know Jewish things has worked the founding foundingness of um uh of Israel this this goes into the you know a great study of the you know the core of Labor Zionist um teachings um and what what he he considers you know betrayal of um uh you know betrayal of its Mission by Leading labor zionists but very provocative and helpful um on the Declaration and this maybe you know we can discuss some other time you know this is you know aharan Barak um you know who is a chief justice of Israel's Supreme Court you know you know dominant thinker you could say of Israel pristine generation he has reflected a lot on the Declaration and its role um in Israel's life and I you know I just you know fancy fancy myself disagreeing with him in some respects but um you know it's um um he's he's been uh you know a very important figure and it just goes to show that you know this question of you know the Declaration of the principles of Israel's founding are going to be you know you know I see them becoming more and more relevant you know in in the coming years in Israel no that's great well that's another conversation we will have we have to have we should have this is a terrific deal anything we haven't covered that you want to mention or that uh people need to think about but they can well they can learn more from the book and from other readings and think themselves about the you know honestly about the Declaration and about uh one thing I've struck by in your book I'm not very well educated and things Jewish or Israeli and um it's but it's quite accessible you don't have to be people shouldn't be intimidated I would say to our audience here that you know why I haven't you know don't know Hebrew or I haven't studied this much or you know it's just like the American Declaration a little bit of background obviously you need is helpful but you provide that but it's really uh if you're interested in politics and political philosophy and history uh religion uh culture you know um 20th century uh there's there's a lot uh the book's accessible so that's that's a tribute to you and to your co-author yeah no thank you thank you very much that's great here one one thing I would I would say is if you know especially for young people I would encourage them if they're thinking about Israel and the Israeli founding to think of it not only in terms of as you mentioned earlier the history of Zionism but political philosophy the whole tradition of political thought you know from from Plato from Machiavelli through through to John Locke um and 19th century thinkers once you start doing that um I think a whole host of provocative questions open up that are right for reflection on the nature of modern Israel but also you know in politics simply using Israel to think one can use Israel to think about our um political um possibilities of course not neglecting the Jewish Jewish sources and uh and Zionism um as well so I think that was very important for me and you know I think it could be you know helpful for others no that's an excellent note and Neil thanks for thanks for joining me today and and I've wanted to go out and buy the book uh needless to say and recommend it to others and and uh you know discuss it in a discussion study groups and get in touch with Neil to invite him to discuss it and his co-author Dolph Ziggler so Neil thanks for joining me today thank you and thank you for joining us on conversations

Channel: Conversations with Bill Kristol

Views: 5,148

Keywords: Neil Rogachevsky, Israel's Declaration of Independence, Israeli history, Israel

Id: y9Xwm_u6mNg

Length: 74min 27sec (4467 seconds)

Published: Thu Feb 02 2023