Neil Druckmann On The Last Of Us Getting Rejected, Making Hit Video Games | Logically Speaking Ep. 7

so one of the projects was to pitch a Night of the Living Dead game to George Romero he would then pick which project he liked uh and then we'd spend a semester making it I was a fan of horror a fan of zombies a fan of George Romero so I was like how do I get on this project I don't [ __ ] all the other projects and they kind of built this story of like okay this guy lost his daughter there's a girl that lost her dad her mom was a Senator that lived on the East Coast they on the west coast zombie apocalypse happened the Night of the Living Dead apocalypse and she puts out a reward to say if anyone can deliver my daughter of let them into this quarantine Zone this Safe Haven sounds familiar that becomes a goal for this guy so he like all these groups now Chase to try to get this girl because she's worth so much in this world some of the elements that actually made it all the way through the eventually The Last of Us pitch it to George I'm super nervous going in front of George Romero and pitching he hates it really he's like where are my characters where's the like this has like almost nothing to do with Night of the Living Dead what up guys it's logic hey what's up guys what's up what's up guys it's logic you all hear me is this what you want ladies and gentlemen welcome to logically speaking I'm your host logic but you can call me Bob and uh Our Guest today I'm actually nervous introducing you oh that's weird Our Guest today is arguably the greatest video game creator of all time now I would argue against it I would argue for it I'd love to see you and heo just go Toe to Toe in a boxing ring anyway um director writer um in a million Award winner Neil dman hello welcome hi Bob how are you now I'm nervous I wasn't nervous before but um we talked about doing this months ago yeah we did and then there were strikes all sorts of things happened but thank you so much of course for coming this is my little break well I guess we'll start with um tell me about your life growing up I want to know what your household was like what did it smell like what did it look like what did it feel like when you were a kid uh as far back as I can remember that far yeah so I had a weird childhood from at least from what is familiar here in the US for most people I grew up in a town in the West Bank in Israel um called bet um my parents were kind of crazy that uh they started this town they were the first 12 families so it was a bare Mountain where they brought um with a crane they dropped these like one bedroom H like cubes essentially for people to live in no sewer no electricity uh so they brought in a giant generator and then they slowly built it out and um you know by by the time I left Israel in 1989 I was 10 uh there was like something families that lived there and it was like big and flourishing and it was like a public pool uh but it was it was a little strange again compared to what I was I moved from there to Miami Florida so that was a big culture shock didn't quite speak the language and quite understand everything um but just to give a picture it's uh classrooms were really small like there were like 20 kids in a grade and you know everybody you know all the families you know all the kids so we're all just kind of in one room and teachers would swap in and out um and then more than once the principal of the school would come in and say Neil your dog Snoopy ran away and is making a mess because I would I taught my dog to like go to these public garbage pales uh and grab the bag the garbage bag and run with it so he would run with it and then the bag would rip and just spread garbage all over the ground so whenever he ran away it would cause a huge mess so I would have to leave the school go get him tie him back up return to school dude that's like that sucks why did you teach him to to get because I was like we're a kid I didn't there wasn't a lot to do there by the way so did you guys have like a like who was in charge uh there was like a committee that was in charge of of um my my parents were on that uh uh so my childhood was also a lot of gaming so I have a older brother uh Emanuel and he was from a very young age he got into video games and comics and movies so because of that as far back as I can remember I was exposed to that stuff wow um so you know we had a pong machine in the house and then later we had a Vic 20 old like pre- Commodore 64 computer we'd play games on that wow and eventually it was a big deal and he got a PC and then we started playing these old school adventure games Sierra games were like kings Quest and space Quest and Leisure Suit Larry and I learned English so I could play those games because the interface for those games were like a text prompt you would like type open door pickup key um so you learned English to play video games so I would sit there with a Hebrew English dictionary um so I could translate what's been written on the screen or what I'm trying to convey in the game and you're how old here oh 56 that's 5 six teaching yourself another language uh but again it's very very basic sentences the other thing my parents before I was born lived in Canada for a little bit so they try to speak English in the house so I understood more I think than the average Israeli at that age of like English I could watch movies without having to read the subtitles um and again I was just so exposed to movies like again from as far back as I remember I watch Blues Brothers with my brothers and Ghostbusters and then he exposed me to Star Wars and um you sound like Wade Watts from Ready Player one like you know what I mean like the kid who just loved art well that's again I I I didn't get much out of sports um I had a but you're shredded you're like ripped well these days you know as I'm getting in my mid-40s I try to be healthy I try to eat healthy I try to work out uh describe it as ripped but this is the healthiest I've been in my life is is here uh but yeah back then it was just a lot of video games movies uh drawing and kind of trying to express myself through ART never never at that point realizing that that could be a possible career um it was just all for fun so you moved to Miami and what was that like what what brought you there um yeah my um through some political stuff that I'm not going to get into you know my parents got a little bit disillusioned and um my uncle had a business in Miami Florida my dad's brother so they saw it as an opportunity to move and we moved to Miami and uh it was it was wild like again imagine like just growing in a little town where you know everybody to a giant sprawling Metropolis where you don't know anybody you barely speak the language I mean I could understand I could conversations but my grandma was a my vocabulary was very limited um then first year I went to a Jewish private school which I hated cuz he had to wear like a a uniform you had to pray every morning just wasn't really my thing um but uh one of the earliest things we did uh well we first we landed in um New York where we had some family there and I remember first landing and being a little disappointed um cuz we weren't in Manhattan we were uh in Long Island and and I'm like this doesn't this doesn't look like the movies you know I grew up again dreaming about going to the US like I I would look at photo albums of my brother having gone to Disneyland and dream of the day I would get to go to Disney and I would like countless times just flip through those albums and then um we finally took a a train that became a Subway and we walked out onto like Time Square and I was like there it is this is this is the United States of Imagine in my mind having watched those movies uh and the other thing that happened is we stayed at um a cousin's house and he had this console on Nintendo and then back then in Israel consoles weren't the thing it was just PC games so we're like oh it's a whole new library of games let's just go game by game my brother and I just started going game by game and playing them wow and then there's this one game we got stuck on I was like and we we spent a little bit longer than all the other games and then we moved on and we're like let's go back to that one game and again I didn't know what any of these games were just kind of speaks to the genius of this game and um it was Super Mario Brothers oh wow uh I was just like addicted to it and we felt so smart like oh we found like one of the war P like the first of War poles and and um I became a Nintendo kid at that point I was like I had to have a console my parents bought me my first Nintendo I and the first game I bought was Teenage with Ninja Turtles classic uh which was really hard one of the hardest games I've ever played yeah um and then I was just like a Nintendo kid for a while just buying all like the latest games and then that's when I I I started realizing oh there's certain developers that make better game than others um because I would buy like Who Framed Roger abbit because I was really into it not a great game yeah fun concept but then you buy Super Mario Brothers 3 and you're blown away it's like it's incredible wow man that's and so when do you feel like I mean I guess what did you think you were going to do like what did you think you know you're a kid you're playing games you're going to school what what did you want to be what did your parents want you to be what did you think your life was supposed to be I I I was pretty directionless for a while I was really into comic books especially when we moved to the US I found this like local comic book store on 163rd Street I would go to it all the time and uh I got Sin City when I was way too young to have Sin City but it was super inspirational if you At Last of Us and you look at Sin City there's a lot of overlap there um so I started having dreams or fantasies of like what would be like to be a comic book artist and I would start to draw all the time and like study anatomy and about like how to draw comic books books yeah and start to following those instructions so that was a dream for a while um and then it it shifted when I went to college I went to Florida State initially so you're what like 18 uh yeah 18 at the time it was the number number one party school in the country um not that I did a lot of partying I just went to play for my in my parents house play video games to go to a dorm room to play video games love it and that was a lot of like golden eye and WrestleMania and just a lot of like games golden eye let's talk about it I mean oh my God that oh that was revolutionary yeah anyway sorry there it is that's all we need to talk about uh so when I was in school I first year was undecided cuz again I was kind of aimless then I switched my major to criminology and the plan was what the [ __ ] yeah the plan was I'm going to study criminology uh which some of those Phil philosophy behind laws I found super intriguing uh and then I would get my law degree I would then use that to become an FBI agent okay get really cool experience like a molder or something from mix files and then use that experience to write novels that was like that was my long-term plan wait why didn't you just why didn't you just write the now because I was like I I don't have experience I don't have enough life experience to write stories I I I feel you but I I I somehow wrote A New York Times besteller [ __ ] I was an idiot I didn't know that you could just write um so I did that for a while and then in my third year of doing criminology and you know criminology is damn three years uh and criminology you take these um Math and Science for non- Majors so they're not as intense and then I took as an elective I took a programming class ah and in my mind I always thought I'm not that technical my brother was the very technical one he's the one always put like our computers together but programming came relatively easy to me and I was really enjoying it there was something about speaking to the computer and almost like it's learning another language um that all sudden this just just almost immediately this light bulb moment happened and it's like video games wait a second people make video games that's a career how do people get into that I I had no clue at the time I was like but then I was on I had to shift I was like I'm going to make video games I don't know how I'm going to get into it what I have to do and then I went back to like my counselor and I was like I want to change major he like well you know you took all these classes that wouldn't count like I was like I want to switch to computer science and he's like well you took all these science and math classes that won't count towards that major you would have to retake all those classes I'm like I don't care whatever it takes wow uh and I went it's in high school I was a c student CD student and uh when I became a criminology major I became like a b student as soon as I wanted to do video games straight A student see that's and just a side note here like I heard that a lot from my teachers that I was lazy and the thing is is like I always thought that for a long time I thought I was lazy and I just realized no I just this sucks like I'm not into this you know and any anything you're truly interested in I think you just flourish and that's like a prime example right there I think good teachers get you to see how this will apply to your life long term like they get you to find the passion behind the thing like I wish I could go back in time redo High School like do better on my literature classes my math CL like just all those things that I have a better base of knowledge than I do now I agree but also like there's like crack dealers and killers in my house and [ __ ] so when I was at school I was like not giving a [ __ ] about anything no but I I hear you okay so uh so you're you're programming you're like okay this is my everything you're taking it seriously um during this time are you like like what what is that Eureka moment like are you making your version of Frogger like what are you how are you seeing it so again I I didn't quite know what to do um I I found this uh Professor Dr David Banks and he was a graphics professor at Florida State and uh I only found him cuz he was host I don't remember who he was hosting he was hosting someone that was related to game development to give a talk so I went to see that talk and afterwards I was like how do how does one get into it I started chatting with him and he's like uh and through our conversation he had me come work for him as a ta so I was working for the graphics Lab at Florida State and this is like 99 2000 yeah yes yes yes around that period um cuz I know it comes 13 years later early early early 2000 anyway um uh so then he was like uh okay you want to get into games have you ever made a game I said no he's like why don't you start there so I got a book on like how to make video games that like it walk you through from beginning to end how to do a sidescrolling shooter and I programmed that like I followed every chapter I programed that and then I was like okay let me try to reverse engineer Super Mario Brothers so let me take this engine that I just wrote in Windows this very simple 2D engine and instead of having be a sidescrolling shooter I'll make it a platformer and just getting into like the physics of the character and just making the mechanics feel good and then I I teamed up with some other people and that worked in lab that were better programmers than me and we made this top- down shooter and programmed that and again this professor was so good at like really pushing me and he was like have you ever gone to a conference like a gaming conference and I said no and he's like search for the best one I'll send you there I'll pay for it wow so I found that's when I first found out about the game developers conference and he's flew me out to I don't remember at the time where I was I wasn't San Francisco was somewhere else doesn't matter I was there and I go to see all these talks one of them is by Jason Rubin the co-founder of Na dog and he gave this talk about how games just can't be about Graphics anymore and like the talks about just the future of games it was very inspiring talk and I was a fan of Crash Bandicoot Jack and Daxter so afterward I went and B and bugged him I went to talk to him and I said hey I did this platformer you guys make amazing platform can I show it to you and get some feedback and he's like oh no no no no we we we don't do that like then if we make something similar you could sue me so just as a policy would undo that and I said okay um do you hire interns nope no interns at D dog we have a policy not to hire any interns and I think he could see I was a little disappointed like he's like but you never know here's my card oh W so I took the card damn didn't have to do that didn't have to do it and he hind said maybe you shouldn't have I flew back uh to T H and as soon as I landed I took the card out I started an email I'm like well the platform where you didn't want me to show you here it is here's the link to it um again I would love to work for you in any capacity again I was just um and then I I left I did some stuff came back home and had a message on my answering machine remember answering machines yeah I do uh the real tape the real mini tape yeah uh and he was like Hey by coincidence we are looking for an intern for this very specific role I have to go to Europe to do a press tour when I come back let's talk and I'm like oh my God I just I just got in I got into the game industry and then two weeks passed I don't hear from him 3 weeks pass I don't hear from him so I'm like [ __ ] so I start I I sent him an email don't get a reply I'm like what do I do so I called the front desk at naughty dog and I asked for him so they transfer me to him and I'm like hey I'm the student you spoke with you left me a message he's like oh right right right listen I'm so sorry we gave that job to someone else oh my gosh and this is one of those moments in time where like I was so upset ET and frustrated like you must have felt this you know when you're so excited about something you're about to have this breakthrough and then it's it's it's not there anymore yeah bro tell me about it it's my whole life but I was just like I was like you know what I swallowed my pride and I said hey you know I really I just appreciate you talked to me you didn't have to you didn't have to give me your card let's keep in touch she's like hey you never know maybe in the future there'll be another opportunity um but anyway do you want me to keep going like this just tell you my whole life story trust me I'll dig I'll dig in we're it's very important that my guests I just I love I love hearing up until a certain point and then I got some questions I I go back to my professor and and he said you know I'm like I thought I had this intership I don't have it uh and he's like oh well uh what's um what are some good Masters program where people go to video games I said I don't know so I started researching and there was one that really caught my eye at Carnegie melon that was called entertainment technology it was like a relatively new Masters they've developed that combines storytelling and programming and art and I saw that some people have left from it and gone to work at like places like EA and worked on the Sims so I again on his own dime or like the the money he had for the lab he flew me out there to interview wow at the school what a guy he was awesome and and I I haven't done a great job of keeping in touch with him and I should I should shoot him a a message um I I haven't done that with a lot of teachers that's that's a thing I should I should try to do you know what but like in this moment it's a good realization like dude you you you know you're a father your family you have employees and ideas and you're working and working and working and sometimes it's just simple moments like this yeah that remind you and when you're in the car you might start calling a few people you know I feel the same way there's there's so and especially for guys like us like bro I already know your roll of decks is like popping like so many people have your number email this this and it's just it's so hard to keep up with people you genuinely love I saw this meme on the internet that was like adult friendships be like and then it's a text message and it's like yo what's up bro it's been forever let's hang out next June anyway so I get that uh you're all good don't worry sometimes it's hard you know being an introvert and like you you keep playing a conversation in your head and you want it to be perfect you're like I'll just hold off on that conversation until I can make the perfect version and then I just never never do it yeah but you just got to YOLO it and be like what's up even if it's 5 minutes sometimes I'll call somebody and it's true but I'll be like hey I'm I'm heading out the door in five minutes but I just want to call you and say hello or sometimes just to text or an email just be like hey I thought of you like really appreciate you that's a real that's that's pretty dope that's why I always send you nudes I and I appreciate them they made me feel better every time you do for shizel okay so you go to this thing anyway uh let me try to May me see I could speed it up I I so we got all the time in the world and people are listening because they want to know the story and I'm asking these [ __ ] questions cuz I want to know the story so everybody else out there [ __ ] off so I go to uh I get accepted to Carnegie melon University to this program I was super super stoked I get there and um the first thing that I noticed were again it was I forget how big it was it was like maybe 30 students or something relatively small program and everyone was just a genius everyone was like and I I felt like what am I to do in here I haven't done much in my life and all these people have already done so many amazing things I felt that a million times in my life I'm feeling it right now I'm like how how can I interview this guy anyway continue um so there was this from the get-go this friendly competition between all of us and but this camaraderie and the hardest I've ever worked in my life was in this program where I would like stay awake from multiple nights to finish a project and the hardest class I've ever taken in my life was the first class you take in this program was called building Virtual Worlds and the way worked is um you take a a group and of different people of different disciplines so I was usually the programmer because that was my background and there would be like an artist a producer a designer and you'd have two weeks to do a virtual reality experience um and this is 2002 2003 2003 um and again so the the the programming is relatively primitive the hardware is really primitive it's not like today where VR is like in a lot of people's homes um two weeks to do it and then you present it in front of the class it gets critiqued to hell and back and then you break up that group put a new group together and you have two more weeks to do the next one and you we did it like four or five times throughout the whole semester wow and you would think that class is about virtual reality and like how to the class was about collaboration how do you work in a group and how do you come together when you have some people that are strong some people that are weaker a concept that might all all come together you have to agree because there isn't necessarily a leader in that group right and like people might have different ideas and then at the end of each one of those sequences you would get this piece of paper where you have to list three qualities that you liked about the every person you worked with and three qualities they could improve on and you give that to the teacher at the end of the semester you get a thick packet what everybody said about you and I've kept that to this day really yes it's like getting voted off in Survivor because you see patterns and it's like okay if one person said it then you know they're probably wrong if everybody says it oh this is something I have to work on okay so what were your top three positives and negatives not negatives what you could improve on the general through line was that I was a very hard worker very passionate about ideas but I was kind of a dick to work with because I wasn't flexible I wasn't as collaborative um I wasn't as open to other people like changing the ideas and that has stuck with me and that that is like like a constant reminder of especially you know that was baby form of working on a game yeah uh and now like you know at naughty dog I work with 400 people at the studio and you have to collaborate and you have to really be open to other other people's ideas that might be better than your own dude that's something that um I experienced a lot and still do in music you know because and the difference is it is it's my show right it's like logic so it's like but there's also a reason these other people are there and so I think for a long time it was kind of my way or the highway especially early on like in the basement when I was like doing free mixtapes and [ __ ] and just releasing it online but then once we moved to California it I really and you know you're talking about camaraderie man it's like just me and it's basically all still the same people but especially me and my my boy six he's my producer he like makes all my Beats and he's taught me how to make beats and things like that and there's been times when he said something that was like hard to hear like really and he still does and that's one thing that's always and we'll get to this later because I always love [ __ ] on the internet but the internet's so annoying like fans and like people who like don't know what the [ __ ] they're talking about and I've seen people be like yeah he's just surrounded by yes men and it's like if only you knew like how hard we work and how much these guys kick my ass they'll be like no Bob you got to do it like this we should put the saxophone at the end because the way it'll resonate with the underlining flute and and all this other [ __ ] and then sometimes I'm just like no like because and but I'll explain why you know and I'll say the reason I don't want to do uh the saxophone there is because we've already done it on four actually my engineer told me this actually let me let me flip this the other day we were working on an album and my engineer I I was like okay let's do like U fire escape sacks like like some straight Sin City saxophone like at the end of this song and then I ended up doing it on like four records and then I wanted to do it on another one and he's like bro you can't just have a bunch of sax outros sxos and I was like okay you're you're actually right now I know this might seem menial but it is those little things and just trusting the people around you because somebody somewhere would have been like hey man this is you know you're literally just doing sexy Sac saxophone at the end of that really resonates with me because everything we do are are like a million little decisions that add up to slightly bigger decisions add up to slightly bigger decisions and then finally it's like the whole thing coming together so you worked with these people that was awesome where did you go from there yeah so uh another thing that was um lifechanging would describe it as one of the class that everyone has to take in this program and again this is a very technical program but uh you take have to take an improv acting class because again it's so much of it is about collaboration and improv acting is all about yes and so you know you're there on stage with a bunch of other nerds people that have never acted in their life and they have to be on stage and act and everyone is so nervous the first dat myself included and then you just learn to just relax and just go with the flow as as cliche as that sound um but that has stuck with me and again it's it's a muscle that you have to exercise of uh because like what you were saying before you know when someone comes and gives you an idea I feel like I should be able to defend every choice I've made so when someone comes to me with a counter idea I should either say that's better we should go with that or I should be able to defend the original idea and strengthen it by defending it that's how I feel in the studio yeah and that's you know I I forget who somebody came up to me recently and they were like dude you're not a rapper you're a [ __ ] director I was like what they're like yeah man you're a director you get all these people together you tell them what you want how you want it you know I remember uh Tarantino uh when he was I guess Reservoir Dogs was already written and he wanted to direct it he was just like well how do I you know how do I get get the shot to look exactly like I want you know it's like I want like a red light and da d da and I forget who it was and it was a producer that he met and you don't have to know how to do it you don't have to know any of that [ __ ] what you have to do is have the right people in place you know your wardrobe set design this and that and say make it look like this thing in my head and when I read this and I read that probably in like 2014 when I started working on my sophomore album the incredible true story about space and then I really started to understand like I don't have to do everything because when I I so I got signed um to Def Jam by no D who's like Kanye's Mentor works with Jay-Z all this stuff and he saw something in me and I remember the first time we we ever got together I was like I was like yeah man let me get some beats and he's like making me beats and I'm like okay now put these drums on that and he keeps looking at me like [ __ ] what like and I'm like yeah yeah yeah okay what what is that like a high hat thing yeah yeah yeah put that put that over there on that [ __ ] and he's just like what the [ __ ] like he's like what shut up you know what I mean like I could re I could feel him but then he stepped back and later that night he like sat me down and he was like yeah you're a producer I was like what are you talking about I was like I don't know how to play any instruments I don't know how to use any programs he goes it doesn't matter you're a producer a producer knows what they want and they have a sound in their head and they want to achieve them and I was like [ __ ] off and then you know over a decade later I'm a [ __ ] producer and and I feel that so it's really cool what you're saying I just really resonate with it it's just it's such a weird job to be an artist that collaborates with so many other people because you have to on one level have humility and a lack of ego to work with and collaborate otherwise people would walk away they don't want to be told what to do they're they're experts at their field but you also have to have enough of an ego to say I want my art out there to be experienced by millions of people and you have to have both of those thoughts in your head at the same time yeah it's a that's a scary one I think about that I'm like you know I was 17 I mean I was earlier 14 I wanted to be a rapper and it's all I ever wanted more than anything in the world and there was the the moment that I knew that I could achieve this um is when my first love broke up with me because I was just not even really making noise like that in my city but I I'd played a couple shows I'd done a few things but I had just by then I had hundreds and hundreds of songs that I recorded on this like really [ __ ] PC and when she broke up with me I realized no actually she broke broke up with me and then we were like you know you're still kind of fooling around and you both love each other but you can't let it go and you're all young and whatever and I realized that I was being strung along and not like she's I mean we were kids you know what I mean but I realized I was being strung along and I had to make that decision for myself to focus on me and then I realized that no matter how much time and effort you put into another human being you are not guaranteed to get that back and honestly you should didn't even expect to get that back and I realized that the time and effort I put into my craft I got back every time I wrote Every time I wrapped every time I performed I improved and and then it started to hit me like a [ __ ] drug and then I saw that there weren't many people like me and like I could make a joke about being black and white and looking white and I just did and but what I'm saying is like for real like to be in this you know black household black family but I look white there was just a different perspective there wasn't really many mixed race people in hip-hop like that and then also let alone that my message was peace love and positivity so I I actually looked at it like a business and so where everybody and I'm like 20 maybe 1920 and I realized that like everybody else is talking about like [ __ ] and hoes and boats and Yachts and all this [ __ ] and I was like no that's not real like I could see it like I could see that like all these models were paid to be there I could see that everything's rented and I'm broke as [ __ ] I don't even know how I can't even I'm not even old enough to like rent a car and I just felt in my heart of hearts that if I focused on a positive message and selling myself as a brand rather than trying to conform into what everybody else is doing that I just might have a shot and it was also because I was around other people who believed in me you know much very much so like that professor and then and then the group that you were working with uh to set me on my way not to make this all about me but I'm saying I really relate to what you're saying um so please continue yeah um let's see so finished the first semester loved it second semester turns into more of like a Project based program where there are I don't know eight or so projects that the school has and you have to write a pitch of why you should be in each one of those projects and you have to do it for all the projects because you don't know which one you'll end up on so you got to have to write a whole pitch for like eight different things yeah of how you would contribute to that that project got it one of the projects um was run by a professor named Ralph fatuo he was our film Professor he had was he Italian yeah fio what the [ __ ] talk about his good friend that lived in Pittsburgh was George Romero of Night of the Living Dead frame who creat of like the modern day zombie stuff he was just homies with this guy he was homies with this guy because they both lived in Pittsburgh cool car Mel is in Pittsburgh uh for contextual reference uh so one of the projects was to Pitch A game A Night of the Living Dead game to George Romero he would then pick which project he liked of of the pitches uh and then we'd spend a semester making it so I was like I was a fan of horror a fan of zombies a fan of George Romero um I love survival horror games that was my jam uh so I was like how do I get on this project I don't [ __ ] all the other projects now I know like the teachers the professors always say you have to think about them all equally because again there's no guarantee so so I wrote something for all them but then for this one so you just have ass like seven I I I didn't have F but this one I doubled ass okay uh so I oh doubled ass uh I made concept art I just spent more time and effort thinking about it I got on that project so I had to come up with a pitch for Night of the Living Dead game I didn't know what I was doing I I the time I played a game called Eco that I loved and super influential uh and in that game you know you play this kid and trying to get this girl out of this castle and the main mechanic is holding her hand and kind of leading her along and it it really made you have an emotional connection through a mechanic it's one of the first games that really like action games that made me feel emotionally invested in it so I was like okay I'm going to take that I'm just going to steal that uh most artists I mentioned Sin City so I was like I'm going to steal hardigan as like the main character that has this like heart condition and it kind of built the story of like okay this guy lost his daughter there's a girl that lost her dad um her mom was a Senator that lived on the East Coast they on the west coast this um zombie apocalypse happened the Night of the Living Dead apocalypse and she puts out a reward to say if anyone can deliver my daughter I'll let them into this quarantine Zone this Safe Haven sounds familiar that becomes a goal for this guy so he like all these groups now Chase to try to get this girl because she's worth so much in this world uh and the mechanic was such that you're playing as this guy until he has his heart condition it acts up and then you swap and play as the girl and you have to protect the guy this is awesome so I'm I'm super excited by this it's coming together and like you know you start by copying stuff but then slowly it becomes your own and you putting yourself into it and I mean my influence were pretty obvious and in the thing pitch it to George I'm super nervous going in front of George Romero and pitching wow so you actually got so he came into into our class and um there were three pitches so one was this pitch one was like a a jokey musical Night of the Living Dead game and one was like a very serious uh systems driven game where like you would build um your house it had and it had the characters from the movie so I finished my pitch and he's like wait shout out shout out this uh it's [ __ ] siren right now okay sorry okay please uh so pitch this thing he hates it really he's like where are my characters where's the like this has like almost nothing to do with n of the Living Dead he was very polite about it but I could tell he did not like it and he picked another project do you remember the project that got picked yeah yeah it was it was a systemic um where again you're playing the characters from the movie and you have to like board houses and how you interact with the other characters you would build relationship with him so I became an sex artist on that project and I was like I'm going to commit to just doing the best and I did like fire effects and all this stuff working on the Unreal Engine the project didn't do that well as far as building a prototype but I love these characters so much and again this concept just stuck with me that then later when like I I'm I'm skipping some stuff but I I got to work at naughty dog I just kept developing this idea and I was like oh I could I could pitch it as a comic book again because I just I was so I becoming more and more into writing so I veled it the guy changed from being a cop to being this drug dealer um there were some torture scenes and stuff and and some of the elements that actually made it all the way through the eventually The Last of Us uh I pitched it to Image Comics and I got a reply from uh Eric Larsson who I like I again did Savage dragon again comic I grew up as a kid but he was the publisher and he wrote me this very short email I like it I don't love it we're going to pass and I I I wrote back I was like hey can you give me like a sentence feedback just anything and he's like your art looks really unfinished cuz I did all the art myself so I spent a year working on the story and doing the first six pages and I'm like I'm not a good enough artist so I shelved it um and then I was uh I was so upset again it's like now like second failure for the story I was like and I wanted to do Comics so badly even though I was working at na dog at the time I I I needed this other creative what were you doing at naughty dog at at the time um yeah so catch up this other thread uh so when I was back in school in the summer they encourage you to get an internship in the industry and people work either go from that program to work in video games or Museum exhibits or theme parks that's usually the three kind of angles that exist uh so I'd got in an offer from EA to work on the Sims as a producer and then I sent an email to Jason Rubin he said hey uh I'm not asking you for a job or anything I just I had to put a portfolio together there's an intern um they're asking us to look for an internship I knew what I was doing I was fishing to see if there's anything there but I was like can you give me any feedback any feedback at all and within a day he replied with a bunch of feedback and told me like your your portfolio is all over the place you have art you have programming you have game design you need to focus on one thing don't don't try to do a jack of all trades he was like when you get started people want to hire for you for one thing not for six things and he's like by the way we have another internship are you still interested and I saidof course uh it's a good thing you hit him up yeah so I end up getting an internship at n dog as a programmer so I started out as a tools programmer my first job when I the [ __ ] does that mean okay so uh first let me describe walking into ID because I think that like you have to imagine you grew up your entire life playing video games this is a studio that you've adored the games that they've made and I'm now in there everyone for me everyone there is a celebrity everyone there is amazing I shouldn't be there and I'm walking walking around and they're showing me they're working on Jack 3 at the time and I get to see that I'm like I'm seeing Jack 3 before anybody else is first of all this is exactly how I felt not to interrupt you but the first time I walked in to naughty dog and I met Kurt oh yeah and uh I got to play Uncharted 4 before it was out okay and so what's Wild is and um obviously I kept my mouth shut but we had I was walking and like there's people programmers and [ __ ] and I just see this grown uh flannel wearing yeah brunette like and I'm like what the [ __ ] is this is this what I think it is and obviously you know last of us had been out and all this and um you weren't there um I forget who I think we might have just met in a hall like a quick yeah I came I came into your office and you were super rude no I'm just kidding you were so nice I know you're lying cuz I didn't have an office back then no no I well I came into must think I was like office or something something yeah but I went in and I shook your hand you were super you were really very nice and um yeah and then somebody was like yeah that's uh that's last of us to shut the [ __ ] up I was like okay I won't say anything so but it was incredible to be in this place because it's like I'm I really am such a fan like I genuinely like you know your games their games video games in general have truly um when I was younger it was my escape from my household from all the negativity that I was surrounded by and then as I've become an adult it's become an enhancement it's not because I love my life and you know your art has really assisted in my happiness to now you know that I have a family and I have a career of my own that like there's nothing to run from now they just make my my life even better so walking into that studio I know exactly how you were feeling so please yeah well you're hitting the nail on the head which is I again as kind of a lonely kid didn't have a lot of friends I just had my video games I had music I had things that that's what gave me purpose um anyway so now before this gets too heavy I'm in the studio I'm geeking out they're showing me Jack 3 and then um kristofh ballestra he was a lead programmer he was the guy I was reporting into he's walking me over he's like over here we're doing this new game it's it's code named Jack X it's it's this racing game we'll we'll figure out the name later end up being called Jack X and the name never changed but it was a Jack and Daxter racing game and he's like and then over here we have a prototype of the next generation PlayStation and it was like it was just like a realistic guy kind of like running in circles um they're trying to get the mechanics to feel right and eventually that would become Uncharted it still wasn't uned it was like a weird sci-fi project at the time but I'm like oh my God not I seeing I'm seeing the next PlayStation Hardware before it hasn't been announced yet W so I'm just I'm just kind of inside I'm just don't freak out act act totally cool like this is totally normal like uh and the first task I got he's like look I started this tool programming you're going to finish it it's called lame I'm like what it's like it's the localization Asset Management engine and what this tool did was like uh you know when we make these games we make them in English and then you have to uh localize them to all these different languages so you have people in Europe people in Asia just send us like thousands and thousands of files and they have to be categorized and you have to make sure that every file has all the languages so it was really building a database that could like accept the files put them in the right place and flag anywhere you're missing certain files wow and make sure you have the most up-to-date file so I was like okay and I just I try to as best as I can to kickass on this job I was like this I know I'll be uh uh I'll be judged on this and I I did a really good job and I I um I made it clear that I I was very interested in design and the creative side of things even though I was hired as a programmer so then pretty soon I moved over to be a gameplay programmer and then I was like well that's not good enough I want to be a designer like uh and then so I would hang out with the designers any task they had that was like overflowing that they couldn't handle I'm like I'll do it just give it to me I'll stay as late as possible I'll do it I know that right now it's like frowned upon to to say like I stayed late but I would I would regularly work till 3:00 or 4 in the morning that's true I different time I don't want to hide it but you know that was my that was my thing I was like I I could work harder than a lot of other people so I would uh do any extra design work the head eventually I was able to switch over to design and I was like was really interested in writing so then I became I started to give feedback on the story until someone said hey why don't you take a pass at this scene and I took a pass it and like okay that's pretty good why don't you take a p of these scenes and I was working on Jack and Daxter PSP damn throwback um so then that's being worked on and at the side there's this game called project big that was slowly becoming Uncharted so I would be working on Jack PSP that was the code name for it and then I would go into folders and pull like like concept art and end progress trailers of like Uncharted and this this guy's wearing Chucks and he's got like a white T-shirt and I was like I was just like this is like a an amazing game it's influenced by Indiana Jones so it's just it's happening on the side I'm not involved with it but I'm like I'm falling in love with this thing W uh and then one day I get called in my boss's office Evan at uh Evan Wells uh and he like look project big is kind of in trouble um we've lost a lot of people the engine wasn't quite coming together we have to cancel the project you're on and he's delivering it in this very heavy way and I'm like if these guys tell me I have to go back to being a programmer after being like into all this creative stuff I'm going to quit on the spot oh wow that was going going through my mind and he's like okay so we're going to put you in Project big and I'm like as what like a little defensive like as what and he's like the same thing you're doing now which is which is design and writing and I'm like oh then who cares I didn't care at all project was cancelled and that's when I started working you know more closely with uh Amy henig um the creator of Uncharted and uh writing alongside her and like really getting my craft of writing under me that the thing I've really loved about doing this podcast so far is giving my guests the floor to really introduce themselves and their lives because it's like it's like duh when I say this but literally we started and you were a little kid in Israel with like 12 other families and now you're working on Uncharted and like that's you know in the span of this conversation it's crazy when you say that I go back to being a kid and playing games I'm like there's so many times when you you must have this where you pinch yourself you're like how did I get here how did I yeah but see like I said because we were talking before we started I'm at a transitional period I still definitely go oh my God I can't believe I'm here but now I'm like not sure where I'm going from here and you know having two kids and approaching my mid-30s it's like it is a little scary you know what I mean because I don't know I mean like do you see yourself you know making video games forever or do you have new passions Arisen in you uh I I've had other opportunities that I've really enjoyed like you know working on the HBO show of course um working on Halloween Horror Nights at Universal Studios which again I I love theme park so having done that and thanks for inviting me I felt I was so mad I couldn't make it I apologize we were in we were in Oregon so well you should go you could still have a chance to go that's true I think I will Justin just went my manager actually he said yeah he said he was he enjoyed it you went last night right last night yeah he was like I was so scared I was like were there bloaters he was like Yeah there there were and then there was these really big things too and I was like you mean bloaters he was like oh yeah okay yeah anyway yeah so I guess um I don't see see myself doing this forever at this scale um it's just it's it's a lot and it takes a lot out of you uh it's just it's very stressful to manage that many people in multiple Studios worldwide um so you know you were talking about how like you've entering this new phase in your life where your kids are number one and I'm in a similar place where my kids are number one and I know that especially my daughter is now 13 and I feel like this she's you know life is pulling her away from from me and uh Cat in the Cradle so I I know that I know that time is limited so it's very precious to me and I don't want to waste it when they do want to spend time with me uh and that's that's number one um yeah so I I've just a point in my life where it's like you start looking at what's the end game here when when does this when is it time to call it and you know I've been watching a lot of interviews with you know we're both big Tarantino fans and you know his whole thing is like I'm gonna make 10 movies and that's it and I'm very curious whether he sticks to that I think he will because he's been just saying this for so long I I think he'll probably do other stuff like he'll do TV shows or he writes novels too Once Upon a Time in Hollywood was a novel first so I could see myself transitioning to something that's like more low-key and lower stress that still allows me to have this creative Outlet um but you know I've started thinking about how many more of these games do I have in me and it's it's it's not that many yeah but it's also when you think about what goes into especially these days um and and the types of games that you've created um it's no easy feat you know what I mean it's not just like oh yeah let's do a sequel you know for example like I'll never forget um like my true introduction to like gaming like really I mean you know obviously played GTA 3 and [ __ ] like that you know but like it was Uncharted and I was 19 and I played it so it was 2009 and I played that and then like Uncharted 2 came out and I'd never seen anything like it before you know like when it opened up and uh the way you guys really [ __ ] with perception you know he's sitting there on a train and he's like oh cool okay this guy's on a train he's asleep and then you see he's not asleep he's knocked out he's shot he's bleeding the camera moves and he's like hanging upside down and then [ __ ] starts falling it's like I never experienced anything like that so for you to have and of obviously so many great people that you work with to have given myself and millions of people around the world that same feeling again and again and again and it's like got to be at least just as good what's really crazy is like if something is is is like just as good even that's not good enough because it you know for the the public or whatever but you guys really outdo yourselves and I can imagine that that must just be well you mentioned Uncharted 2 Uncharted 2 was the most fun I had making any of the games I've worked on Wow because Uncharted one there's a lot of people that loved it but it it wasn't this huge success it was successful enough again that we made Sony happy made enough money um but on charted 2 we felt like we had something really special like we all knew it uh and we knew we were flying in under the radar and no one's going to expect what we're about to deliver and I remember we you know we'd spend like late nights playing the multiplayer as well and it was just it was just this camaraderie and the stress wasn't there that afterwards everything has been incredibly stressful after Uncharted too cuz now you're no longer flying under the radar now everybody's expecting something to be great and you have to think okay how do we make it great and how do we do it in a way that doesn't feel like we're just repeating ourselves so you always have to make it great and new which is really really hard yeah welcome to my [ __ ] life are you laughing that's literally how I feel bro and I know you know this well no you know it's actually very similar now that I think about it because it's like people will come after like you they'll come after like a person and not just the art they'll like talk about your art they'll this that and it you you almost feel like you're backed into a corner and no matter what you do it's not good enough there was a time in my career like especially after I you know had like my first hit where I would go to right and just be happy and like listening to a awesome ass beat and just go to right and then be like whoa millions and tens and tens of millions hundreds of millions of people are going to hear what I'm about to say and then it's just like that much pressure is crazy and I I did like four albums with that weight on me and then I retired but I that was [ __ ] I didn't really know I thought I was retiring but you can't it's like I love art you know what I mean I thought I was out and they pulled me back in and yeah so I did that and then after when I came back I went to WR again I also did a spite album to get out of my de Jam contract um it's funny cuz you just heard me talk about some [ __ ] before anyway but I did a spite album called vinyl days it's uh just the most hip hop like I didn't give a [ __ ] I produced like most of the Beats on it and I just wrapped and it's like one of my most critically acclaimed like of the culture albums because I had reached a point where I was like a sellout and I was so famous and so known and for making pop [ __ ] and all this other stuff so when I did that people were like oh my God this is amazing and I thought it was really funny that when I when I said [ __ ] it I'm literally like I bro I got bars I got a bar I just wrote recently and I go uh something life gets hard but they still test I'm stealth mode like Elli and Hill Crest so I just like Like These Bars I'll just think of the most like I'll be rapping about try gun and cowboy bbop and just like whenever I'm in doubt of like what should I do I just go right from here like just write the most nerdiest real [ __ ] ever but anyway so with all that being said it's like I can relate to that where people expect everything to be bigger and better and this and that and also that's not even necessarily what art is about right it's like there's like this album that I just did recently it's going to be one of my biggest albums that I've ever done and so knowing that like people are like you've already wrapped about being a dad and it's like yeah but now I'm a dad of two you know it's like my my perspective has changed and this and that to know that everything you you do has to be the best at all times that's why even though you know we're not like insanely close I consider you a good friend of mine but it's like I think the reason I relate and I think we can relate so much to each other is because we're in a very similar situation that not a lot of people understand so yeah and you know I've had some uh dark moments in my career that you reached out and were very uh generous with your words and time and um I do appreciate that well I I appreciate you you know it's really funny when we first met I was like oh man I was like I was I was so nervous because I genuinely thought you were a cool guy and I didn't want you to just think I wanted something from you because I was such a fan I like we went to dinner and you said like you gave this whole monologue I'm like I'm this dinner is not about me getting anything I just want to chat I just want to drink some Japanese whiskey yeah it's just so important to me though it's like you know cuz I get it and I know and it's like we've also worked together and because we've worked together there's just a part of me that's like I'm not trying to smoo you for a roll yeah you know I'll just give you a hand job no but yeah no so but when we first I I remember I had I had my uh what was the the gentleman from Naughty Dog who you asked to intern the guy oh uh uh Jason Ruben yeah yeah so it felt like that because I remember uh I was there with Kurt and that first time I played Uncharted 4 and then somehow I was like hey I might have even gotten your number or something I don't know but I was just like hey we should we should have lunch I remember I remember getting lunch and you were like okay all right and I was like yeah let's just go get lunch and you're like all right and then then I remember being like hey man just saying you know if you ever want to put me in a video game like but I meant it I was like I'll play a trash can dude I was like I'll [ __ ] be whatever cuz it was just such a like think about this okay your video game right so the last of us is a game that I mean I've beat it now 20 plus times it's sickening I just play it all the time like I don't know why I just love it it's just like my happy place and it's like full of death anyway and so I played this game bro for 10 years straight and think about it like very much so yourself like walking in like hoping to intern and going from an intern to like the boss you know which is amazing like I have no [ __ ] idea how I be befriended you Ashley uh Steve Bloom like like so many troy so many of like my icons and my favorite people and I could go on like Seth McFarland I mean the guests we've had they're all like friends of mine and they're people who are always there and Shout Out Laura Bailey shout out Laura Bailey Laura Laura's a huge one I was like freaking out and Travis obviously just the whole gang so many people uh and DN I feel like I'm gonna get a text if I'm forgetting somebody [ __ ] you but it's so weird that within 10 years I went from being a Super Fan to being very close friends with so many of these people and then being in the second game which was so cool um and just an utter dream come true because the thing is I remember reading for Jesse and I look at I look back now and I was like h i mean he was he was written a little differently uh when when I read for it uh but it was it was yeah he he's he was like a manly guy and I was playing it like all Tim and [ __ ] but uh you're not being totally fair to yourself again it's not like I did you a favor like oh he's logic let's put him in the game uh you impressed our casting director Becky so Becky Becky uh or again thank yourself for having impressed her and Jesse was then split up into like two roles then we combine it didn't make sense anymore but I was like like we liked your audition so much we're like I have this other idea for you I'm going to have Ellie kill you in this really thr way and then Ashley literally almost took my head off do you remember that cuz I had the gun and you get the best gun in the game off my body which which yeah yeah the strap she like went and she grabbed it and we did the take and I'm there like dead on the floor and I just have this giant bruise like immediately from uh the the strap burning my neck and she when she realized what was going on she was like oh my God Bob I'm so sorry I'm so sorry and I was like no this is [ __ ] awesome I was like you know I get to tell the story now I'm telling the story and it's really cool but yeah no that that's that's something that actually stuck with me um auditioning and not getting it because this was this was a time where I was just really like comparing myself to so many amazing people people like Donald Glover for example you know who started as this comedian and then became this huge musician and then movie star and all these things and so I was you know I was like mid 20s and just constantly looking at Instagram just like we all have at some point and kind of comparing yourself to other people sure and so I started doing because I do I love film I love it like I love I love acting I love being on a set like it's really special I've had some some pretty cool roles but I realized also a lot of it's like circle jerking it's kind of like who you know and like cuz I did a million in one auditions and like I think I auditioned it be like a crackhead on like on like that Jessica Alba CSI show whatever it was and like and I and I like didn't get it and I was like dude my parents are crack addicts like if there was anybody to play this role it's me like I didn't get that and I get to get some stupid [ __ ] and then I tried out for uh stranger things and the casting directors they're like we love you it's just not right and I and I believe them now especially because I understand that so when I did that audition I wasn't like heartbroken or anything I it was amazing that I had the opportunity to self tape it was so cool and then when I didn't get it I really wasn't like disappointed I was just kind of like well this shit's not happening for me and then [ __ ] two years go by and I get a call and Becky's like we have a part for you and I was like what I was like are you serious and she's like yeah can you make it and it taught me a very very very very valuable lesson like and I should have already known this as being a musician it's like bro it just it doesn't happen overnight and one one opportunity one role one meeting can actually change your whole life and that's once again that's where I feel like I'm at right now I feel like there's a million people I know in my life and there's a million people I've been blessed to have and I don't want anything from them but where I'm at with music it's just not the I will always make music I love it but the to to make music like my heart life depends on like I'm just so over that and I'm I'm not even searching for I am welcoming this next passion or thing that will come and it will when it will how long from when you start thinking of an album the first thought until it's done recording how much time is that usually you know it's funny dude because I work very fast you can ask these guys like I work so fast and the quality is there too but it depends man it's like you know how long how about this what's the longest from the first thought to the final recording some albums have taken me years for sure but typically I would say like a real album that I'm putting my everything into it's about a year process you know cuz especially with me with Concepts it's like you know I had this idea for the ballot of rooster Jenkins takes place in 1863 about a runaway slave and da d da and it's not even that's not even out yet and it's more of a radio play and in my mind I mean I I wrote the script this is GNA sound bad but I wrote it in like an hour because you gotta remember it's a radio place it's like 35 minutes or 35 Pages um but how long were you thinking about it because to me the writing is not a good indicator CU like I could write a script really fast but then you ask me how long have I been thinking about it well I was thinking about it for years I actually was thinking about it for years actually you know what yeah that's that's the writing is the thinking about it but that's why I'm like kind of over the music part like wherever I go next like bro I have I'm sitting on so many scripts bro and I've I mean I've read like I just had him come to my house a couple months ago and I just like yo check out all these scripts like bro I have like a whole script called Jerry about a homeless comedian who like tells jokes on Venice and then gets picked up and blah blah blah I have this like sci-fi what would you call it like a Sci-Fi play almost it's a it's a film called the protagonist about simulated reality like I've all this [ __ ] and then one day and and I'd been thinking about doing um like a western and so but when I decided to really do it I was like it's got to be Morgan Freeman I like Morgan Freeman because think about it if you if you're doing a radio play or and well style there's no camera you can't see anything so you really need this golden voice and I was like who better than the voice of God to be the camera and kind of you know um explain to The Listener what's going on so yeah but I get these ideas ideas and it's honestly I okay I don't I don't want to say I'm sad I shouldn't say that but even talking about all these all these ideas and all these scripts and like it just I'm I don't know I'm having a mental breakdown right now I'm kidding I'm like I'm like left with this uneasy feeling because I'm so enthralled by art that isn't just music and I love music and I really want to do music and I don't know where this is going I don't know how the [ __ ] we got into all this but like for real I will always do music but there's something more for me and I just don't know what it is and I'm see maybe maybe we're going in opposite directions CU for me like I I've been playing guitar since I was 16 but I only other people's songs like I play Pearl Jam I play Nirvana Stone lot of 90s [ __ ] uh only my favorite [ __ ] only recently I've started writing my own songs and it's not for anybody but myself and there's like a a like a just awesome outlet that I could like come up with this idea come up with with this riff and just write it down and it's there for myself sometimes my kids can hear me play it and stuff but that's it and that's the joy I get out of it and it's not for Mass consumption or anything like that and I've been really enjoying that see I have things like that chess is that for me like I'm obsessed with chess it really makes me happy I play like 30 Games a day minimum and but there's something about my art like I just really I don't know it's this medium like I don't know how to explain it dude like I'm just very lost right now creatively and it's actually the best feeling it's because it's like my whole career I've always known what was next every time every time every album I would have three four albums ahead with music done and [ __ ] just sitting there just waiting and now this next album I have I'll have nothing after that and I don't know and but like that feeling that you're talking about about you know like playing the guitar writing these songs is how I feel when I'm writing a script or like I'm not even going to joke I'm not going to lie with you like dude I'll like act out scenes sometimes I'll just be in the mirror like what the [ __ ] you looking at over here like just dumb things and little things that I do alone because I really love it and I guess that's really all that matters right it's like if I write a bunch of scripts and nothing comes of it that feeling well it's the again it's the it's a cliche but it's a cliche because it's true which is it's the it's the journey not the destination and I think it's just and that took me years to to to to appreciate that um that it was like I I know when I was working on last of a swan that was the first game I was a director on and it had to be perfect in every way and I stressed myself out like I probably like shaved years of my life off wow because I was just it had to be perfect and I wasn't I wasn't enjoy that's why I'm saying like last was I mean Uncharted 2 was more fun to work on than last of us one even though Last of Us was more of my baby um it was really really stressful and I and I know I really stress people out around me because of that damn but that's a isn't that art though you know what I mean like isn't that what it's about and I just I think any great artist and business person like they you have to experience that like especially if you're making something at such a scale you know of like a giant album a giant video game like something that will be remembered and that when you're making it and you know how good it is or how good it can be and you're doing everything in your power to make it as good as it is and then you put it out and people say it sucks anyway you know what I mean so it's like well you make it for enough people people say everything under the sun about it yeah I agree so um a question I have for you about the show so people people would be like um cuz I knew it was coming and I was really excited about it and I was also nervous because I was like oh man now let's put it this way when I saw Ready Player One in theaters I was like this [ __ ] sucks I was like [ __ ] this movie I didn't actually like tweet that because I'm not a douchebag but I was like I was like No just I'll put that on my podcast I was like yeah I'll just put on my podcast it's all good Ernest Klein that's my homie see that's another thing like so I was obsessed with uh Ready Player one I read it like 10 times in a year I'm like I read it I KN like knew everything about it somehow befriended the [ __ ] author so much so if you if you read Ready Player 2 and the thank yous next to Spielberg you'll see my name which is kind of crazy anyway Flex you got to flex a little bit in life okay so um I love this book right watched the movie couldn't do it I was like what the [ __ ] and it was it was a such a great Learning lesson too because I as as a person who creates art I'm very lenient with it like I I don't really judge I don't like to judge people [ __ ] too harshly especially on a first listen Orie or viewing or whatever it's like really give it that opportunity but I was like [ __ ] this [ __ ] and months go by and I was reading a bunch of Michael kryon and I read Jurassic Park for the first time and I was like oh my God the movie sucks I was like compared to this [ __ ] maybe you just hat Steven Spielberg that's I love Spielberg actually met him one time he was a gentleman very very good he's a nice guy so but the thing is is I really realized that um in these manuscripts you know like there there's just every detail it is it is like a its own Universe between these Pages like it's insane and then I watched I thought about how Jurassic Park is like a incredible movie and I've been watching it since I was a kid and I realized so so many things on these Pages cannot translate to the screen period so then I watched Ready Player one again it was like this is [ __ ] amazing because like the the opening car chase wasn't a car chase it was just this young kid playing joust with a skeleton now when you're reading it you're like this is the most enthralling thing ever but it's just like imagine that just a a skeleton and some kid playing [ __ ] video game for 30 minutes to open a Spielberg movie no it's not gonna happen so it actually really adjusted and and helped me and this was like 2018 with my own art and perception of Art and also blah blah blah so I was a little nervous with The Last of Us understandably because but I also had this perspective this new perspective of appreciation and bro I watched it with my wife and it was truly amazing and I'm not just sucking your dick I'd be very honest like sh I remember people asking me because they know know how much I love the game I literally have the safe codes T tatted on my hand I just got yesterday to the first game also they're in your handwriting thank you very much for them like when when you text him you're like oh send me the safe codes I'm like what the what is he talking about what safe codes and then I was like oh right for the safes the safe code I like oh I'm not robbing a bank right now um whoa so a lot of people asked me they were like what's it like compared to the game and I said that the last of us has to be my favorite adaptation personally um that I've ever seen on screen and to me the show is like a 10 out of 10 the acting is great this is what I and I it's a big deal I would let you know I'd be like solid eight I'd be like solid eight that's a great that's great okay it's my favorite adaptation it's one of my favorite shows and um that I've that I've seen But I tell everybody I say compared to the game it's a five and what I mean by that is the game is you hear that Craig Mason the game is so much more detailed so I asked myself why right and mind you 10 out of 10 show right but compared to this game and I'm like why that's not me just trying to be some [ __ ] nerd like it's not living up you know I've never touched a breast like it's not like that it's like what is it and the only thing that the show nobody not you nobody could ever capture are those moments walking in the middle of [ __ ] nowhere or you know trudging through sewers that aren't scenes that aren't cutcenes that tell a story and allow you as the player to cre to to have an emo truly emotional connection and that's why your games are amazing and the fact that you could even truly give the viewer that feeling uh you know through this series is amazing and so that's a feat that I I I was like I was like how is he going to be able to do that and I think you did it you you you in in such a short time and you really think about it how many episodes was it 10 Nine episodes yeah so it's nine episodes It's a you know minseries I mean not really I mean whatever but we just live you know in our days like friends had 26 episodes you know really you'd watch that so to be able to so clearly and and calculate in in a calculated manner give me that same feeling it was really beautiful and to see subtle changes like uh Henry right his name's Henry there was that bill and Frank and Henry and Sam and all that and but to do it in a different way um I thought was really beautiful but there will always be something about watching characters and being here's a question which ring do you like better the Japanese one or the American one well I only ever saw you only see the American cuz usually when you ask that people they they'll pick one and you'll say which one did you see first and it's the one they saw first is the one they like better M so uh I wonder have you seen the show first and then play the game if you if you would say the reverse I mean maybe and mind you that's no slight like very curious actually but I just we'll never know we'll never know but there's I don't know I just love the just those little things man like well there's certain things you know when we're making the show that I we knew and you know I have to thank so many people for that for how amazing that show is um most of all is Craig Mason it's like that the keeto making a great show is hire the best people yeah the best people at TV uh and make it at HBO for sure that's the key to success yeah they and I think it helped that I worked on the film version that would have been awful would have been one of those bad adaptations had we finished that one cuz then it even that's like what you got two and a half hours maybe you know what I mean not even you got you got two hours Max and uh and the feedback I got was like this will lead it down a bad path oh man no you guys you you you really killed it and I loved it and all the CGI was so good too and the makeup and but that's the the reason we had such great CG so there there's like there's so many shows being there's so much content being made now there's a shortage of Studios that could do good CG and even within certain Studios you have teams that are better than other teams now we're making The Last of Us TV show and all a sudden very specific teams want to work with us because they're fans of the game and they want to work on the TV show that's crazy uh and that's how we were able to get some of the best VFX team teams because the people in those teams were fans of the game and they wanted to be on the show we had someone like our um uh bfx supervisor Alex left ilm to come be a VFX supervisor to work on the show because of fan of The Last of Us which which blows my mind how crazy that is the bloater when you first see the bloater I was just like oh my goodness it was so crazy here's a real question can you eat 20-year-old Chef boy Rd could you probably not do you think because they do it in the show like could you you think it' make you sick my guess is it's probably it's probably G bad Okay cool so um just a few more questions um some good ones what uh makes you happy truly happy not the pr [ __ ] version um how do I not make this cliche uh I have my tattoo present tense and it's like you know being present but that's not specific enough um my kids man uh I got you know I got to go to when I when I get to share either something they've done or I've done and I I got to take them to Orlando to see the opening of Halloween Horror Nights for the last of us and I got to walk through the house with them and see how much they enjoyed it and enjoyed the rest of the park and everything and like you know this like the I feel like I'm meant to do and the people I'm meant to be with and when you combine those two things it's something really magical that's it's hard to describe um yeah these days it's it's um even you know working on this new game and it's it's really ambitious it's parts of it are really hard but I've really kind of surrendered to knowing it's going to be really hard knowing it's going to like stress members of the team out and like how do I make this a Joy experience for myself and everybody else on the team and there's moments where like like you know we talked about Kurt who was um one of the game directors on last shout out Kurt margan one of the game directors on um Last of Us 2 he was the game director on Lost Legacy Uncharted did a phenomenal job um and he recently did something on this new game and really stepped up and like gave this like P passion pitch and I was just I was so proud and uh and just seeing like other people rise to the occasion and surprising me in these really beautiful ways these days I get a lot of joy out of that and and helping Mentor people and and seeing them like Express themselves through ART um another thing that comes to mind is um you know it was recently the 10th anniversary of The Last of Us oh right and I'm this uh I'm an introvert and uh my my partner at my job Allison Mory who's the been promoted recently to be Studio manager she was like you got to say something I'm like I don't know what to say she like you got to say something in front of the whole and I I have to tell you I've I've now given like talks in front of hundreds of people I'm doing like these interviews accepted Awards I get the most nervous talking in front of naughty dog I don't know what it is I think it's because I feel like they're often looking to me for like direction or inspiration and I feel like I owe it to them so I'm like I don't know what I'm going to say man this is and I'm getting really nervous and I don't have anything and she passes me the mic and I'm like so I start rambling for a while I'm like hey congrats everybody it's been an amazing 10 years just all the [ __ ] and then I'm like um you know I don't know if you've all have done this and I said in this really awkward way like if you ever run into like a fan of our game and you see how much it means to them it's like what a what a what an awesome feeling that is like they connect to the characters or the game play or something and then it hits me this thing I'm going to say and I'm like and that's really cool you know meeting fans love our games so I'm like and I start getting really emotional and I'm I'm I'm might get emotional saying it here and I'm like and I'm like but I know something even cooler how many of you are here because of this game and half the studio raises their hand and I couldn't believe it I got like so emotional cuz I remember playing Ocarina of Time Metal Gear Solid these games that have inspire me to want to make games uh to dedicate like my entire life to this thing and then here other people that have played this game that I worked on and it's like paying it forward in a way I could raise my hand right now too bro that's a real thing and like it just it was just like this amazing moment like it's like I I could have never have predicted or like guessed or like um it seems like like you're in a really great place in your life man I'm really happy for you it's it's it's awesome to see that you're passionate and that you're happy and excited and you have your personal life and you have your professional life and it's really it's a special thing man you should be really proud and and you're also and I know you'll try to make a joke out of this but you're so young like you're so young you know for what you not a joke but I will tell you I just got my first pair of progressive glasses bif focals so nice welcome to the club yeah well but look man I think uh I think it's it's you should be really proud of what you've accomplished cuz even you just like telling me this story that's why I wanted to hear it it's like it's inspiring me it's something I needed to hear because it's like think about where you were 10 years ago think about where you were 10 years from then and it's like well 20 years obviously but it's like no it's so crazy how there's moments just moments fleeting moments that could have never happened if you like you know took a left instead of a right or you didn't show up late somewhere or you did or this that just completely can alter um where you're meant to be and I feel like I'm there and I don't know what's coming so hearing you talk about this just excites me and makes me feel even more um secure in the unknown you know especially cuz I'm such a control freak I like have to know everything and figure everything out and um this story and the way you're living your life now is is very inspiring so thank you for and but this is not to kiss ass or anything but uh you know even just having that dinner with you at no boo the other night uh and it was just chatting and it was just kind of talking about frustrations we've had and some difficulty difficult things and you know you gave some really good advice and I'm just I'm really like appreciating these just little moments these little like intimate interactions we can get as intimate as he want and then once the cameras are off we'll get really intimate um yeah thank you for being my friend thank you for being here thank you for an awesome uh conversation and thank you a million times over for your art I love you you I appreciate you and um I would not be the man I am today and the artist I am today without you so thank you very much well well thank you psych um all right let's get the [ __ ] out of here see you guys next time goodbye or farewell ciao hey what's up guys thank you so much for joining us on this episode of logically speaking please make sure you click the link and check out more things don't forget to subscribe all those things things like that don't forget peace

Channel: Logically Speaking

Views: 86,110

Keywords: Logic, podcast, logically speaking, podcast clips, video games, video game, the last of us, last of us, the last of us part 2, the last of us part II, hbo, hbo max, game development, game design, game dev, tv, television, tv show, uncharted, uncharted 4, uncharted 2, uncharted 3, xbox, playstation, Nintendo, ps4, ps5, crash bandicoot, night of the living dead, George Romero, zombie, zombies, zombie survival, writer, director, israel, logics podcast, neil druckmann, gaming, online gaming

Id: jBesgXilHbk

Length: 84min 23sec (5063 seconds)

Published: Tue Feb 27 2024